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Thread: Kundalini Awakening, Chakras, Enlightenment, Heaven and related matters.

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally posted by Maggie View Post
    I am sure the comment is applicable to all the authorities because IF we are having an authentic experience of our "self", no other person can determine the validity. I am sick and tired of sanctimonious authority.

    I never had heard of the term "incel" and actually what it looks to be is very superficial complaint from "guys" that the "girls" won't give it up to them. In the last many years when I began researching "manifestation" tech, I came across a HUGE body of work aimed at "manipulating" for sex. It seemed quite strange to me because as a female, I am not seeing my worth based on quantity of sex. Obviously this whole vast subject of sexuality is FILLED with taboo, shame, misnomer, distrust, distress, unfulfilled longing that is IMO way MORE about involuntary (seeming) disconnection from self and others.

    I am a widow who after my partner died lost interest in the social games of male/female attraction so no surprise I am not "in" relationships. If anyone IS wanting a relationship, that person WILL IMO have to be amenable to compromises and willing to "look" the part of a "suitable" partner. By compromise I mean doing things one may not like and looking the part, I mean literally dressing. This is because one s entering into a social program. One is playing in the courting ritual.

    As far as energy (by whatever description), I am with Shadowself about life force being already online and the work being to clear channels. IMO religion (and what we call spiritual seeking) is predicated on belief that we are alone, unworthy, guilty, sick, sad, impoverished, bad, wrong, disgusting, and just about every pejortive descriptor. The idea is that IF we work to overcome our sins (by whatever name), MAYBE we might be "enough" to have whatever fruits we seek. IMO all these are the blockade because in my experience, the life force flowing well needs physical correlates of relaxation, emotional correlates of calm satisfaction and mental correlates of matter of fact self acceptance.

    Until we are dead, IMO it is NEVER too late to have a full sexual or what ever desired experience when we let ourselves. I am looking to be the kind of person who is loved and loves. I'd rather not have to play the courting game and the kind of love I mean is not actually needing a recipient and I feel loved even when alone. It might be nice if a particular person and I fit but I am just fine and actually benefited by having no strong ties. I have no doubt that any isolation has been (maybe unconsciously) REQUESTED. I believe we are all powerfully creating our own experience!!!

    I am sorry to say that I am unable to tolerate the people who think they know it all for others and set themselves up as leaders of the sociopolicospiritual memes. I feel nauseated by experts telling me how to get "right" with "god/dess". They should just mind their business and share their own struggles because I am 100% sure they are hypocrites and liars when telling me what is "true". I hope it is noted that I thnk its fine to share an opinion as long as it is clear "this is true FOR me IMO". I also think I have the right to change my opinion based on experience.
    I agree with you and I have to emphasise here that incels are not exclusively men, there are many women among them and this is especially prevalent in Asia. There are many 40-year old virgins there and the majority are women. I also know several women in Hungary who are in their late thirties and have been incels for several years now and not because they're unattractive.

    There is a major problem with sexuality all over the world right now and male and female are not in balance, leading to much suffering and social problems, not to mention a plummeting birthrate. If we can't solve this problem globally we can kiss the human race goodbye. Maybe this is the end result of social engineering specifically designed to lower birthrates, I don't know, but many people are suffering due to it.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    Well since you've yet to address this question allow me to reiterate.


    Just because you subscribe to many outdated modes of backward thinking like this....does not mean it's true.
    What makes you think I subscribe to this way of thinking? I'm simply reporting on it as an outside observer. It is the reality in India today and has been for thousands of years. India is a highly misogynistic culture, that is part of life there even today. I don't have to agree with it to report on it as an observer.


    As a species we have evolved. Our DNA has evolved. Our understand of what is true as to the this statement you've made is the very evolution of humanity itself. The grand experiment if that suits you. Whatever you choose to call it that kind of thinking is not only outdated....it's most assuredly not true.

    The VAST MAJORITY of people starting a family consider it a spiritual path. That life force of the universe you keep spouting about that seems to be elusive to those you have said may be deemed unworthy (in your own words) is within the miracle birth of your own child. And it's a powerful thing. A man who sees his child take its first breath will be driven to uncontrollable tears of joy.

    Many parents find that bringing up children furthers their spiritual development. Seen in the right way, parenthood can itself be a spiritual path, bringing a heightened sense of love, wonder and appreciation.

    Part of the reason why bringing up children can be a spiritual experience is because children are such strongly spiritual beings themselves. They naturally have many of the qualities which, as adults, we try to cultivate through spiritual development. They can be your teacher!

    children are naturally mindful. They always live fully in the present, and the world is always a fantastically real and interesting place to them. Babies and young children are actually more conscious and more vividly aware of their external world and internal life than adults are. They have an ‘infinite capacity for wonder’ which we adults only experience at our highest moments!

    Just because you are not interested it family for the sake of a sexually inspired kundalini for the purpose of enlightenment and what did you say? Better psychic abilities? It does not make it true for the vast majority of families which find being a family is indeed spiritual and provides the most important ingredient to that very same spiritual path....that would be UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
    I agree with that, but it is not the prevalent view within Hinduism. In fact I remember a part from the Bhagavata Purana, which describes the various tortures a soul has to go through in Hell and it is specifically mentions how being a devoted family man is almost guaranteed to land you in hell. This is one of the main criticisms ex-Hindus have about their old religion, it has a definite anti-family bent. Those that join the Hare Krishna cult are also often at the receiving end of this anti-family view.

    All earthly beings have psychic abilities. Animals are Psychic. Plants are Psychic.

    One of the greatest reason why psychic is not spiritual is that there are many psychic people who do not know who they are, why they are here, and where they are going.

    You would think all the mediums and astral travelers would find reliable insight to wisdom. But there appears to be more emphasis in the techniques and the powers than in understanding life.

    If we were to compare two students, one who practices psychic powers for 30 years and the other who studies spirituality for 30 years, who will gain wisdom? Who will be more closer to enlightenment? Who will have more self-mastery?


    The Thirst for Psychic Powers
    Why would anyone wish to attain psychic powers? There are many motivations for attaining them.

    Some wishes to heal others, help others, seek to understand unknown phenomena, discover something new and share experiences with the world. But these motivations are not a thirst and are quickly moved on. Those specifically seeking out psychic abilities often have different motives and sometimes they are mixed.

    In general, people want to develop psychic powers of any kind is due to them being spiritually ignorant.
    Yes, I agree with you. I personally never sought psychic powers. They developed on their own as a side-effect of my spiritual practice. But demonising these siddhis also doesn't serve anyone. Like you said, they're natural abilities that everyone, including plants and animals seem to have. Only humans are cut off from them due to lifelong conditioning.

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  5. #78
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    What makes you think I subscribe to this way of thinking? I'm simply reporting on it as an outside observer.
    Well there you go...that clears it all up....NOT!

    YOU SAID:

    I'd say that's the price you pay for choosing the spiritual path over the material path. If you want a wife, children, family life, etc... that's fine, but it won't give you much time or energy to pursue a spiritual path. The way they solve this conflict between the spiritual and material in India, is that men have traditionally been expected to marry early, devote their lives to their careers, their children and their wife until their first-born son reaches adulthood. Then they renounce all material possessions and take up the life of a wandering ascetic for the rest of their lives. This usually happens around age 50. Unfortunately this would be impossible to do in the West, for many reasons. Women will often join a monastic order at around the same age for the same reason.
    When someone says..."I'd say"....it pretty much implies their line of thinking...

    "I'd say that's the price you pay for choosing the spiritual path over the material path. If you want a wife, children, family life, etc... that's fine, but it won't give you much time or energy to pursue a spiritual path".

    Then you go on to explain how the India men solve the conflict. I'd say you subscribe to it by your very words.

    To which I responded...Whoa!!!!!!!!!! Says who?

    This for starters....
    Last edited by Shadowself, 1st August 2018 at 14:48.

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  7. #79
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    I personally never sought psychic powers. They developed on their own as a side-effect of my spiritual practice. But demonising these siddhis also doesn't serve anyone. Like you said, they're natural abilities that everyone, including plants and animals seem to have. Only humans are cut off from them due to lifelong conditioning.
    Not all humans are cut off from them.


    Funny I didn't think I was demonising these siddhis ....just the people who had them...misused them and many times abused them for their own ends.

    Make no mistake...the dark have psychic powers too!
    Last edited by Shadowself, 1st August 2018 at 14:04.

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    There is also an element of divine grace in the process. In those that the Goddess actually deems worthy, she will rise without effort. This often happens to people who aren't the least bit worthy or deserving. There are others who practice terrible austerities for decades and yet she will not budge an inch. My personal theory is that this is due to the personalised nature of the Shakti, she either likes a person or she doesn't and if she doesn't, there is very little they can do about it. This conflict also arises in general with the contrast between practising austerities and terrible forms of Yoga versus what is known as Bhakti Yoga, the worship of God, as recommended by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. His contention is that devotion to the godhead is far more effective in achieving liberation than contorting yourself into various yogic poses and living the life of an ascetic.
    Your personal theory: "due to the personalised nature of the Shakti, she either likes a person or she doesn't and if she doesn't, there is very little they can do about it."

    According to your personal theory then if Shakti likes you you're in! If not....you lose! Tough tittie!

    I don't want to reveal too much about this topic, only to say that the rumours are true and that this method is basically a miracle cure to a lot of sexual dysfunction and that it leads to increased psychic abilities and powers of concentration. You obviously should not do what Gandhi did (and he credited his incredible powers of concentration, inspiration and persuasion to his Brahmacharya, celibate lifestyle) and go decades without a seminal release, but restricting it to say once a week, the recommendation by Ayurvedic doctors, has considerable benefits both sexually and spiritually
    Well then....of course! It's a miracle cure that leads to what?.... increased psychic abilities and powers of concentration.

    Step right up and get your miracle cure! Increased psychic abilities will cost extra! Powers of concentration free if you order right now! But wait there's more! If you order right now you can have two increased psychic abilities for the price of one!

    I'd say based on some earlier reporting of the Nature of Shakti you described...this is based on your personal experience? Or what exactly?

    You said:

    Well, yes, what gets awakened is the Shakti, the divine feminine energy located at the base of the spine. It is the seed of life that is implanted at conception and it is the energy inherent in this seed that makes the growth of a living being possible. The three channels you are referring to (Ida, Pingala and Sushumna) are in fact physical and correspond to the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems and the spinal cord. However, that is not what Kundalini is. She is the life force that is behind all creation and she is living, intelligent energy. Kundalini awakening and enlightenment are not necessarily the same thing, though they can sometimes coincide. Plenty of people go through a negative or destructive Kundalini awakening, which is most certainly not enlightenment. However, an awakened Kundalini can help in and lead to what we know as Enlightenment or Liberation. I personally consider Kundalini activation an important step towards enlightenment / liberation, but by no means the final one.
    so tell me...is this shakti an energy or a god who gets pickie as to who is worthy and who she likes or dislikes. Which is it?

    I'm just feeling quite stupid today and I'm sure you will clear this up eh?
    Last edited by Shadowself, 1st August 2018 at 14:51.

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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    Well there you go...that clears it all up....NOT!

    YOU SAID:



    When someone says..."I'd say"....it pretty much implies their line of thinking...

    "I'd say that's the price you pay for choosing the spiritual path over the material path. If you want a wife, children, family life, etc... that's fine, but it won't give you much time or energy to pursue a spiritual path".

    Then you go on to explain how the India men solve the conflict. I'd say you subscribe to it by your very words.

    To which I responded...Whoa!!!!!!!!!! Says who?

    This for starters....
    I was referring specifically to Aragorn's situation and partly mine as I had to make that sacrifice personally and repeatedly and I am assuming, though I don't know for sure, so apologies if I'm wrong about that, but I am assuming that this would be the case with him as well, as well as a number of people who have chosen a spiritual life over the accumulation of material goods.

    This pertains mostly to men and I hope you do appreciate that the expectations that society has towards men are very different than towards women. It mostly centres around accumulating material goods and starting a family. Any man that wants to do that will not have a lot of time and energy left over to develop himself spiritually, although of course it isn't impossible.

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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    Your personal theory: "due to the personalised nature of the Shakti, she either likes a person or she doesn't and if she doesn't, there is very little they can do about it."

    According to your personal theory then if Shakti likes you you're in! If not....you lose! Tough tittie!
    I am trying to describe the concept of divine grace as it applies to the goddess energy (Shakti). I haven't been very successful, sorry about that. It is a very hard task to undertake, in my defence.

    Explaining it would require delving a bit deeper into Hindu mythology and probably Greek mythology as well. The Gods are known to be capricious and unpredictable. Like any person, they have their own preferences and can unexpectedly take a liking to one person and reject others, simply based on their personal idiosyncrasies. Krishna for instance was known to be especially capricious and unpredictable with the Gopis, female cattle herders, many of whom were in love with him and sought out his favour. In my experience the Shakti is a bit like that. She has a mind of her own and she will favour some with her gifts and not others. She is generally very gracious though. I know this is a very hard concept for someone brought up in a Western mindset to accept, but I see it as self-evident.

    I don't want to reveal too much about this topic, only to say that the rumours are true and that this method is basically a miracle cure to a lot of sexual dysfunction and that it leads to increased psychic abilities and powers of concentration. You obviously should not do what Gandhi did (and he credited his incredible powers of concentration, inspiration and persuasion to his Brahmacharya, celibate lifestyle) and go decades without a seminal release, but restricting it to say once a week, the recommendation by Ayurvedic doctors, has considerable benefits both sexually and spiritually
    Well then....of course! It's a miracle cure that leads to what?.... increased psychic abilities and powers of concentration.

    Step right up and get your miracle cure! Increased psychic abilities will cost extra! Powers of concentration free if you order right now! But wait there's more! If you order right now you can have two increased psychic abilities for the price of one!

    I'd say based on some earlier reporting of the Nature of Shakti you described...this is based on your personal experience? Or what exactly?
    I wanted to avoid being more specific, but I guess it's unavoidable at this point. The technique described previously does cure sexual dysfunction in men, including premature ejaculation (by its very nature) and any other sexual performance problems that men struggle with from time to time. I know this from personal experience. However the energetic process itself, the transmutation of sexual energy into a more potent spiritual force is described in detail in the Yoga Sutras and also by Gopi Krishna in many of his books on Kundalini. What I reported on the nature of the Shakti comes mostly from books on Kundalini. I can't provide any citations as I don't have them on my person right now, but I hope you will understand. This is not a scholarly work anyways, just some posts on a forum.

    so tell me...is this shakti an energy or a god who gets pickie as to who is worthy and who she likes or dislikes. Which is it?

    I'm just feeling quite stupid today and I'm sure you will clear this up eh?
    She is both. She has a universal aspect as Shakti and a personalised aspect as The Goddess. Kundalini is worshipped as a Goddess in India, for this reason.
    Last edited by Chris, 1st August 2018 at 15:47.

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  15. #83
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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I was referring specifically to Aragorn's situation and partly mine as I had to make that sacrifice personally and repeatedly and I am assuming, though I don't know for sure, so apologies if I'm wrong about that, but I am assuming that this would be the case with him as well, as well as a number of people who have chosen a spiritual life over the accumulation of material goods.

    This pertains mostly to men and I hope you do appreciate that the expectations that society has towards men are very different than towards women. It mostly centres around accumulating material goods and starting a family. Any man that wants to do that will not have a lot of time and energy left over to develop himself spiritually, although of course it isn't impossible.
    Nice caveat...."although of course it isn't impossible"....But you just said it again.

    And I will say it again...step up to the new paradigm!

    My dear boy....I raised three boys to men....I was a very SAVVY business woman who also invested in property in California without the help of ANY MAN! I had plenty of time to devote myself to spiritually. Because what kind of mother would I be if I did not expand that knowledge and understanding to my children? I made shit loads of money too! My children did not want for anything...they also understood the nature of the material word vs the spiritual world. How in the hell does one lowly woman manage that? Of course the poor men that did not exist in my life never existed to complain that they just didn't have time to get right with spirituality.

    What a crock...what a misogynistic way of thinking....There are MANY woman like me out there that not only spend the time to get spiritual with their families and be VERY successful in the business sector or whatever path they choose. This ALSO includes men and their families for gods sake!

    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    I am trying to describe the concept of divine grace as it applies to the goddess energy (Shakti). I haven't been very successful, sorry about that. It is a very hard task to undertake, in my defence.

    Explaining it would require delving a bit deeper into Hindu mythology and probably Greek mythology as well. The Gods are known to be capricious and unpredictable. Like any person, they have their own preferences and can unexpectedly take a liking to one person and reject others, simply based on their personal idiosyncrasies. Krishna for instance was known to be especially capricious and unpredictable with the Gopis, female cattle herders, many of whom were in love with him and sought out his favour. In my experience the Shakti is a bit like that. She has a mind of her own and she will favour some with her gifts and not others. She is generally very gracious though. I know this is a very hard concept for someone brought up in a Western mindset to accept, but I see it as self-evident.
    NO you have not been successful....But spare me....please. I've read enough to get the drift according to your personal perceptions.
    Last edited by Shadowself, 1st August 2018 at 15:47.

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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    Nice caveat...."although of course it isn't impossible"....But you just said it again.

    And I will say it again...step up to the new paradigm!

    My dear boy....I raised three boys to men....I was a very SAVVY business woman who also invested in property in California without the help of ANY MAN! I had plenty of time to devote myself to spiritually. Because what kind of mother would I be if I did not expand that knowledge and understanding to my children? I made shit loads of money too! My children did not want for anything...they also understood the nature of the material word vs the spiritual world. How in the hell does one lowly woman manage that? Of course the poor men that did not exist in my life never existed to complain that they just didn't have time to get right with spirituality.

    What a crock...what a misogynistic way of thinking....There are MANY woman like me out there that not only spend the time to get spiritual with their families and be VERY successful in the business sector or whatever path they choose. This ALSO includes men and their families for gods sake!



    NO you have not been successful....But spare me....please. I've read enough to get the drift according to your personal perceptions.
    It seems you were offended by my remarks and I'm really not sure why. I tried to be respectful and I have not made any comments on your situation specifically or made any criticisms of you and any of your personal choices. I would never do that. In any case I don't feel qualified to comment on women, their spirituality and their life situation, since I'm not one. I can only write about Kundalini and spirituality from the point of view of a man, because I am one. I have no idea how a Kundalini awakening works in a woman for instance and I have yet to find a good description of it in a physiological and energetic sense. You are making assumptions about me and my worldview that are simply not factual and I really don't know what triggered this reaction. But if you don't like my stuff, just don't read it, it's really that simple.

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    That you find this comment respectful is amazing! I'm sure there are others that feel the same as I do about it.


    This pertains mostly to men and I hope you do appreciate that the expectations that society has towards men are very different than towards women. It mostly centres around accumulating material goods and starting a family. Any man that wants to do that will not have a lot of time and energy left over to develop himself spiritually, although of course it isn't impossible.

    Others may not comment...but I'm not afraid to step up to some bold faced truth. My comments above about this stand. It's offensive. Period. It's also one of the least spiritual things I've heard in a very long time!
    Last edited by Shadowself, 1st August 2018 at 16:06.

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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    That you find this comment respectful is amazing! I'm sure there are others that feel the same as I do about it.





    Others may not comment...but I'm not afraid to step up to some bold faced truth. My comments above about this stand. It's offensive. Period. It's also one of the least spiritual things I've heard in a very long time!
    ??? Sorry Brook, you lost me there. What exactly is offensive about that comment? I see it as a simple observation of some rather unfortunate social norms and expectations. Those may be offensive in themselves but let's not confuse them with reporting on them. Also I'M talking here from a specific cultural perspective, maybe things are very different over in America, I really have no way of knowing, since I never lived there.

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    Quote Originally posted by Chris View Post
    ??? Sorry Brook, you lost me there. What exactly is offensive about that comment? I see it as a simple observation of some rather unfortunate social norms and expectations. Those may be offensive in themselves but let's not confuse them with reporting on them. Also I'M talking here from a specific cultural perspective, maybe things are very different over in America, I really have no way of knowing, since I never lived there.
    NO no no....Not working. sorry....this is not an "American" thing.

    I'll leave you to your thread as you wish...I've heard quite enough already.

    Just know the world has reached the 21st century...where your backward thinking of social norms have nothing to do with America...but where women have finally come out of the dark ages. You may not respect this given you want to pin it on America vs a cultural perspective. But believe me Women have been doing plenty around the world to achieve equal status. In many cases they worked harder than men to maintain that level of achievement as well as awareness....and by god...even spirituality!

    I am quite done here. You won't be bothered by me as I see what is going on here. I wonder if you do?

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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    NO no no....Not working. sorry....this is not an "American" thing.

    I'll leave you to your thread as you wish...I've heard quite enough already.

    Just know the world has reached the 21st century...where your backward thinking of social norms have nothing to do with America...but where women have finally come out of the dark ages. You may not respect this given you want to pin it on America vs a cultural perspective. But believe me Women have been doing plenty around the world to achieve equal status. In many cases they worked harder than men to maintain that level of achievement as well as awareness....and by god...even spirituality!

    I am quite done here. You won't be bothered by me as I see what is going on here. I wonder if you do?
    I too have to say...THIS IS NOT JUST AN AMERICAN THING...it's all over the planet! I personally can add that yes, women have to work harder and better to be considered an equal among men. It...is...true in my experience too! In spirituality there is no difference between anybody...we are all equal. ALL OF US! Down-syndrome, dwarf, if you're ill, if you're healthy...woman, man, homosexual/bisexual or whatever...WE ARE ALL EQUAL! i know we are worth the same. It's a universal thing. Thanks Brook for taking the time to verbalize it all.

    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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    Aragorn (2nd August 2018), Chris (1st August 2018), Dreamtimer (1st August 2018), Kathy (1st August 2018), Maggie (1st August 2018), NotAPretender (2nd August 2018), Shadowself (1st August 2018)

  27. #89
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    Quote Originally posted by Elen View Post
    I too have to say...THIS IS NOT JUST AN AMERICAN THING...it's all over the planet! I personally can add that yes, women have to work harder and better to be considered an equal among men. It...is...true in my experience too! In spirituality there is no difference between anybody...we are all equal. ALL OF US! Down-syndrome, dwarf, if you're ill, if you're healthy...woman, man, homosexual/bisexual or whatever...WE ARE ALL EQUAL! i know we are worth the same. It's a universal thing. Thanks Brook for taking the time to verbalize it all.

    Yes, I agree with that. I'm not sure why you would have inferred that I consider women less than men? Did I make such a remark somewhere? Remember, that I prefer to access the divine through her feminine aspect. I consider balance between male and female of paramount importance. Women actually have an advantage over men in the spiritual field, because their feminine side is more developed and active (obviously). Our world is indeed a patriarchal one and the divine feminine has been suppressed for far too long. I want to make it clear that I do not agree with the patriarchal attitudes that are particularly prevalent in Asia and my own part of the world, even though I may report on it as a real thing, an existing phenomenon. Does that somehow make me a misogynist? I really don't think so and I resent the implication. One of my missions in life is to re-establish the lost balance between male and female, particularly in the field of spirituality and religion.

  28. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (2nd August 2018), Dreamtimer (2nd August 2018), NotAPretender (2nd August 2018)

  29. #90
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    Quote Originally posted by Shadowself View Post
    NO no no....Not working. sorry....this is not an "American" thing.

    I'll leave you to your thread as you wish...I've heard quite enough already.

    Just know the world has reached the 21st century...where your backward thinking of social norms have nothing to do with America...but where women have finally come out of the dark ages. You may not respect this given you want to pin it on America vs a cultural perspective. But believe me Women have been doing plenty around the world to achieve equal status. In many cases they worked harder than men to maintain that level of achievement as well as awareness....and by god...even spirituality!

    I am quite done here. You won't be bothered by me as I see what is going on here. I wonder if you do?
    No, I really don't see what is going on here. You seem to be inferring things from what I wrote that are not my views at all. Where have I said that women cannot be the equals of men and cannot achieve the same things in life? I am sorry Brook, but you are misrepresenting my views and making serious accusations about me that I do not take lightly. I seriously resent being called a misogynist. This is not cool.

  30. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    Aragorn (2nd August 2018), NotAPretender (2nd August 2018)

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