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Thread: Power and Leadership and Control

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    Power and Leadership and Control

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    Last edited by enjoy being, 9th June 2018 at 02:39.

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    Quote Originally posted by enjoy being View Post
    I'll just place this thread in off topic, as it gets confusing where to put anything. I'm sure it can be put somewhere.

    There is an old thread on one aspect of this topic, when it stays on topic, and it shows a few aspects of inner outer, and such. https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/3332-control

    Felt this topic could do with a thread to bag it all up, rather than pelt the tent with words. Just thinking of Mod-Rads' request regards that space, correct me if I am wrong of course.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------


    There are people who want to be leaders. I am not sure we can list all of the reasons why they do, it takes all types, some of the reasons might be philanthropy, some of the reasons might be ego, and some might be some byproduct or distortion of their psyche acting out their pains.

    In the link to the old thread it gets said several times, and most simply by donk, that us here are generally the 'look within' types. Which proves that notion keeps being repeated by people preaching to the converted.

    So with that constantly in mind, one might say that the most obvious but difficult 'solution' to an easy answer, is that if everyone on the planet was healed of their hearts and minds, then probably all of this would be rosy.

    But then we have the non-human energy aspect. The idea of the corruptive ring of power. That seems to show itself in our physical reality. But it itself could also cause lots of debate and posturing. I talk about politicians mainly, and acknowledge that some countries have different dog and pony shows to others.
    The example would be how a person may be driven to become involved in governance, they may do it because they want to save the world. Lets just say that dynamic DOES exist even if it is fleeting.

    That motivation drives them so far. Along the way some may get disillusioned by the existing landscape.
    That may be put there to weed out the ones who have pure intentions, or it may just be there because of the collective dynamic. The individuals character will decide on if they succeed in gaining any 'influence' to have a say. To make a difference.
    These words are triggers for people, they eventually get sold back to the people to try and capture their imagination.
    But along the way, those people who are in the controlling bunch must become indoctrinated surely?
    Even royalty is indoctrinated. But I am at the moment trying to talk about political ruling, as that is more accessible to the discussion. As in technically an 'ordinary person' can become a politician or local body government councillor.

    The existing landscape has an effect on a newbie wanting to make a difference. They may have genuine aspirations, doctors and police etc can have the same and they gradually become broken from the hoops and red-tape and general muckyness of the existing system.
    So people are confronted with 'their price', every one has their price as they say. Where they have to make a choice to continue or abandon their bandwagon. Some will concede on some things with the mind of doing so to further another thing. It gets all convoluted and horrible.

    Another aspect is when or if someone rises to a position near the top and still holds ideals which are admirable to the good of all, if that is in fact likely, then they probably aren't THAT pure but comparatively so.
    Or the ones who come from a minority and have been driven to take back for their people. There is hard evidence of how these people have at least been 'made to appear' like they then sell out their people and become the same as their original oppressors. It could be that they indeed do become poisoned by power, or it could have an element of making them that way to discourage people from belief in there being such solutions, to dry up hope?

    Often we see promises of all sorts during elections. Once maybe these were genuine promises. It is obvious these days there are far less genuine words spoken, but for those who may manage to get to a position of control and power, I am quite certain they are then presented with an appeal to their passions. Something like, "This is the real state of finances, state of the nation, if you try and show the people, there will be rioting in the streets.."etc. The fear of the masses is certainly used as one way of controlling controllers. And the masses confirm it with their chaotic vitriol.

    The question of, could the masses take control of their own destiny? Well it depends on the reality doesn't it. Right now, it is clear the answer is no, there is not enough inner work. Even the more worked people have their issues from what I can see. The common thing is thinking one knows best for others and having a desire to FIX stuff. Otherwise known as meddling. Ask anyone what they would do if they were a Ruler for a day or week. If you catch them unaware, many will say how they will either furnish themselves or the poor and exact some form of retribution on the rich. They will have some list of things which might sound all glorious in changing the world, but the mechanics of things basically just translates as yet another person forcing their ideals on another.

    All the time the subject is being seen from the current paradigm, which is what we are in. Without ALL people being healed of their wounds, then the above is a hard hurdle to cross. It is an easy answer, but a difficult solution.
    Within the current system, lots of things happen to just prolong the inevitable, under the guise of making a difference. Like an old water hose with a few holes, someone rushes over with tape and tapes up the holes, in which others were gathered around trying to manage, and the result is the leak may stop, but then the pressure in the hose causes it to spring a leak somewhere else and we see a perpetual taping up and running around in circles. During which all the others trying to manage and adapt, become dismayed and start touting things such as, "if you can beat'em join'em" and other mantras to justify their changing emotions.

    The system has so many injustices (the hose has so many holes) yet every 3 or 4 years people still jump in and vote for new menders of the hose, rather than face the fact the hose is stuffed. Because it get mended, there are people who must believe it isn't stuffed. You get what I mean there.
    I have only voted once in my life. And I get given stick for saying that. "Oh you must vote, if you don't vote you have no right to complain". That is what we have to compete with in the masses. The ride is old and rickety and dangerous but people still line up to be taken on it. I have even got to the stage of not even enrolling. I see even expressing an interest in possibly maybe turning up to be taken for a ride as detrimental, as condoning of the tattered hose.

    I might pause for breath there and see if anyone is interested in adding or subtracting, or managed to face the wall of words.
    Thoughtful, well written and addressing important topics. Important enough for me to want a face and voice to give the topics the respect they are due and especially if even a tiny amount of actionable resolve is to be reached.

    We have the technology for such interactions. Text is like using a horse and buggy when other better suited options are available. Although, no tech is required for inner work and developing a relationship with Wisdom. In fact, inner work might even be a prerequisite for productive, real time interactions.

    That will be my contribution here.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Last edited by enjoy being, 9th June 2018 at 02:39.

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    Quote Originally posted by enjoy being View Post
    I'll just place this thread in off topic, as it gets confusing where to put anything. I'm sure it can be put somewhere.
    I've moved it to Society & Civilization now, because this is exactly the kind of topics that this category was intended for.
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    Last edited by enjoy being, 9th June 2018 at 02:40.

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    Not to bring this thread to a shrieking halt, but...




    The problem is that there are so many aspirants... And that is all because society indoctrinates us and conditions us from birth to think along the lines of a dichotomy that should not be, i.e. "the rulers and the ruled", as in "the predator and the prey".

    This connotation with predation — and thus, the survival instinct — is what makes many aspire to become a ruler. Not all of them are corrupt from the onset, but they do all carry within them the seed of corruptibility, and upon their entry into the pyramid, they all soon discover that in order to become part of the ruling caste, this seed must be allowed to flourish into a lush plant.

    Those whose corruption has thusly grown are the ones who make up the bulk of all career politicians. Those who were already corrupt from the onset are the psychopaths, and they invariably have their minds set on the highest and/or strategically most opportune positions of the pyramid structure. And finally, those who do not carry the seed of corruptibility within them are repelled, trampled and smothered by the power structure's immune system until they once again become part of the faceless and impotent muck of society that this ruling caste treads upon.

    I have very briefly been a member of a (now defunct) political party, and I have worked for the authorities over here in Belgium. I've seen enough.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Last edited by enjoy being, 9th June 2018 at 02:40.

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    Quote Originally posted by enjoy being View Post
    That doesn't bring the thread to a halt it just re-iterates one of the points made which is good.
    I hope not to presume you assume this is about creating a political direction or action, please let me know and I will try and see where the words could have been misconstrued.
    No, I was not under the impression that this would be where you are going. I merely sought to highlight what I regard — both from within an intellectual consideration and from within my experience in the field — to be the biggest hurdle on account of creating a fair and prosperous society model.

    A secondary hurdle, sprung from the one above, is the financial-economical construct. Animals don't require barter, because they live in harmony with nature. They feed off of what the Earth provides, and it is extremely rare — not completely unheard of, but extremely rare nevertheless — for an animal, even a predator, to kill for other reasons than feeding itself, or protecting either its territory or the safety of its offspring.

    For instance, when the alpha male of a lion tribe dies, then his wannabe-successor will often kill the dead male's offspring so as to establish his own dominance over the pride. Female tigers and a few other female animals will sometimes kill and eat their own young in an act of mercy if they find that they cannot sustain them. But only a psychotic animal would kill for the joy of killing — this, too, has already been observed in the wild, but it is rare.

    Returning to the subject of bartering however, this is not something an animal would do. Animals might use manipulative tactics — for instance, the concept of prostitution has already been observed among certain species of apes — to gain an advantage, but no animal has ever said to another animal "If you want this coconut, then you're going to have to give me two bananas and an apple in return", or "I'll give you two wallabies for the tail of that crocodile."

    Taking this further, at some point in time, the human bartering system evolved toward the use of an abstract and more "universal" barter medium, namely precious metals. And then the bankers came and took that concept to the next level through the creation of a fiat money system. And it is this fiat-money-based control system that makes for the center of attention in the daily management of any human society within what humans like calling "the civilized world".

    Managing the fiat-based financial structure in turn comes down to two major strategies, being a capitalist one and a socialist one. The "civilized" world at large has opted for capitalism — in no small part because of the imperialist push from the USA. I'm painting only a crude picture of the whole situation here, but what it basically comes down to is that socialist regimes always have to exist within the global capitalist system, and that as such, true socialism has never been able to materialize — that which was called communism was not socialism in its actual form, but a perversion of it in order to ensure the pertinent nation state's protection against the capitalist outside world.

    Mind you, I am not advocating socialism here, but the spirit of true socialism — which, as I've just said, has never actually been materialized anywhere because of the fact that capitalism dominates the world at large and no nation can ever truly sustain itself by way of its national produce and resources, so there must always be a possibility to trade (and thus communicate) with the capitalist outside — comes closer to the stage of intellectual development where people might want to consider the abolition of the barter system altogether.

    And because capitalism is an avenue to power — especially because of corporatism, which is a natural consequence of capitalism — you will once again find the same tenet there: those who least deserve the power (and wealth) are the ones who aspire it the most. So it's no surprise that governmental power structures and the financial world are in symbiosis. They both offer the same thing — i.e. power — and to people of the same psychological profile.

    Now, one could then posit that the social injustice brought forth by this unholy collusion would be met with resistance. But that's exactly where the ruling caste has covered itself in. They rely on a secondary, "somewhat lesser" power structure, comprised of a much larger number of individuals, and authorized by the ruling caste to carry firearms.

    On account of civilian activity within the nation's borders, this secondary branch is "law enforcement", and on account of defensive action — or in the case of the USA, offensive action — against other nations, the secondary branch is "the military". Sometimes, law enforcement and military are one and the same, depending on the nation. And as the name "law enforcement" says, this contingent of people is not there to protect and serve the population or to uphold justice, but to uphold the law and serve the lawmakers — or otherwise put: the ruling caste.

    Furthermore, capitalism as a control system is also subliminally reinforced by over-industrialization — creating the shiny gadgets that everyone wants and that everyone eventually gradually becomes addicted to — and by the distortion of information by way of propaganda, obfuscation, thought policing and advertising. And the latter approach is in fact an amalgamation of all of the aforementioned tactics. Advertising revolves around the creation of needs that didn't exist yet before.

    The bottom line is that the materialist society model imposed by capitalism — which, remember, is in essence only a sociopathic trend that grew out of the existence of the barter system by way of the institution of fiat currencies — acts like a sedative on humanity, causing it to go blind to the very injustice that lies underneath the whole foundation of society as we know it here in the West.

    In the Arab world, you can add religion on top of that venomous mix. The influence of religion in the West — or that is to say, where it concerns religious power structures native to the West — has already long waned in favor of materialism and capitalism as opium for the masses. The fanaticism behind Islam — which is a political ideology that obliterates the line between religious beliefs and secular matters — is in itself also a force to be reckoned with when it comes to controlling the population, and because of several waves of mass immigration from the Middle East and Northern Africa into Europe and even into North America, Islam is now also gaining a foothold in the West. As an example, we are repeatedly seeing political attempts over here — in several European countries — to have Sharia Law legally implemented.

    I realize that all of what I've written here-above essentially summarizes the typical "conspiracy" angle, but I'm not actually approaching things from that vantage, per se. I am merely trying to paint a clearly verifiable picture of how power is divided within society and how it is being used to subdue any kind of dissent on the one hand, and where this power structure comes from on the other hand, from the various little seeds to the whole of the jungle that's currently suffocating mankind.

    Hopefully some of you will be able to see the logic behind what I've written in this post. And as an aside, this would then be a clear example of why the written word is often a better way of communicating than an interactive face-to-face conversation. The latter is sequential and one-dimensional, whereas the written word adds the extra dimension of being able to look at things that were said earlier, having all the points made conveniently available for evaluation, and to allow for better detection of any flaws in the logic, if present — all without interrupting the flow.

    There are things for which a direct face-to-face communication is superior, and there are things for which it isn't. This discussion here is clearly one where it is not.
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    Last edited by enjoy being, 9th June 2018 at 02:41.

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    To read it more simply imo, one cannot rule another unless they think they rule themselves unknowingly not.




    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Not to bring this thread to a shrieking halt, but...




    The problem is that there are so many aspirants... And that is all because society indoctrinates us and conditions us from birth to think along the lines of a dichotomy that should not be, i.e. "the rulers and the ruled", as in "the predator and the prey".

    This connotation with predation — and thus, the survival instinct — is what makes many aspire to become a ruler. Not all of them are corrupt from the onset, but they do all carry within them the seed of corruptibility, and upon their entry into the pyramid, they all soon discover that in order to become part of the ruling caste, this seed must be allowed to flourish into a lush plant.

    Those whose corruption has thusly grown are the ones who make up the bulk of all career politicians. Those who were already corrupt from the onset are the psychopaths, and they invariably have their minds set on the highest and/or strategically most opportune positions of the pyramid structure. And finally, those who do not carry the seed of corruptibility within them are repelled, trampled and smothered by the power structure's immune system until they once again become part of the faceless and impotent muck of society that this ruling caste treads upon.

    I have very briefly been a member of a (now defunct) political party, and I have worked for the authorities over here in Belgium. I've seen enough.

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    Quote Originally posted by Aianawa View Post
    To read it more simply imo, one cannot rule another unless they think they rule themselves unknowingly not.
    Hmm... Either I do not understand what you're saying, or else we don't seem to be in agreement.

    If I read you correctly, then you seem to be saying that ruling over someone else would be justified if that someone else does not realize that you're the one who's ruling over them. [*] And if that is what you're saying, then my response would be that this is an unethical thing to do. In fact, it would be a fairly accurate description of Machiavellianism.

    If that is not what you were saying, then by all means, feel free to enlighten me, please.




    Edit: [*] Unless we're talking of an individual who's mentally not capable of ruling themselves — such as a young infant — of course.
    Last edited by Aragorn, 22nd May 2018 at 12:42. Reason: addendum: asterisk and footnote
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    my thoughts are simple...though there is much ado about the voting topic in the U.S. right now...

    most people at some point in their lives realize no matter how silly the game seems, participation is a 'sane' admission to care and concern.

    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Hmm... Either I do not understand what you're saying, or else we don't seem to be in agreement.

    If I read you correctly, then you seem to be saying that ruling over someone else would be justified if that someone else does not realize that you're the one who's ruling over them. [*] And if that is what you're saying, then my response would be that this is an unethical thing to do. In fact, it would be a fairly accurate description of Machiavellianism.

    If that is not what you were saying, then by all means, feel free to enlighten me, please.




    Edit: [*] Unless we're talking of an individual who's mentally not capable of ruling themselves — such as a young infant — of course.
    compassion and empathy should be the driving motivations...my interpretation...
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    We have a system that we could make better if we all work together. We'd have to work together to do all the work. Together.

    My Dad taught me that the government does important work, it's how we work together in a system. And government work is boring work. And if it's being done right it should be. People shouldn't be going into the government to enrich themselves, that's how it becomes corrupt.

    The government belongs to the people, not the people in office. We should all have to do civic work so we see first-hand what this system born of the Constitution actually does.

    Most of us don't. Most of us seem to want to find an 'other' to blame for what we don't like and we kill ourselves from within. Because we put our teams first instead of understanding that we all exist in a system.

    It's like picking favorites among your body's organs.

    Not smart in the long run.

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    you're on a roll today DT and very honest as usual...

    all true...the 'essence' of any government whether one chooses to admit it or not is reflected in its constituency...that seems pretty real and significant to me.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    imo, the systems that exist today were not set up for our benefit.

    Isn't it time to rid ourselves of them and create that which benefits all?

    The idea of bowing to authority is so ingrained that the idea of true freedom cannot be fathomed by most people.
    "Oh Great Spirit, help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence." — Cherokee Prayer

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