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Thread: Zionism Is Racism

  1. #46
    Member on Sabbatical United States WantDisclosure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Octopus Garden View Post
    On the other hand, Holocaust denial is the way neo-Nazis can gain leverage in the area of public opinion. I get what you are saying and appreciate the spirit that motivates your ideas, but I think, on balance, Holocaust denial is so poisonous at its core and so animated by loathesome mean spirited imbeciles, it's correct to deal with the disseminators of it in this way. Curtail, end their ability to lie.
    Actually "Holocaust denial" is a pejorative term much like "conspiracy theorist" is.

    There are very good, thoughtful, responsible, loving human beings who have done investigation into what actually happened to the Jews and others in labor camps.

    They are not neo-Nazis.

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  3. #47
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by KeepTrying View Post
    Actually "Holocaust denial" is a pejorative term much like "conspiracy theorist" is.
    No, it's not. It is an officially accepted term, and it cannot be more semantically correct than it already is.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  5. #48
    Senior Member tarka the duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by KeepTrying View Post
    Actually "Holocaust denial" is a pejorative term much like "conspiracy theorist" is.
    The term "Holocaust Denial" is is a neutral term that is used to describe the actions of people who choose to deny the Holocaust. Simples.


    Quote Originally posted by KeepTrying View Post
    There are very good, thoughtful, responsible, loving human beings who have done investigation into what actually happened to the Jews and others in labor camps.
    And here's a list of some of those very good, thoughtful, responsible, loving human beings:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego..._the_Holocaust

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  7. #49
    Senior Member tarka the duck's Avatar
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    @ palooka's revenge:

    A Story of a Bicycle, the Israeli Army and the Wehrmacht

    I'm not understanding your point here - sorry

    This article by Daniel Blatman (great historian & writer BTW) deals with the issues around dehumanisation
    of the enemy during war - reminiscent of Arendt's "banality of evil". He draws a parallel between the
    meaningless murder of a French man by a German solider for his bicycle and the callous destruction by
    an Israeli policeman of a bicycle belonging to a Palestinian girl. The common thread was the the dehumanisation
    of the victim - the "Lucifer Effect" (Zimbardo) and the disregard for common laws of acceptable behaviour.

    But Blatman is clear to point out that the difference between the actions of a Nazi soldier and the Israeli
    policeman is that one holds a risk of prosecution whereas the other was a completely permissible act that
    would not entail any retribution. He is warning that although there is no legitimacy for such violence in Israel
    as the law stands now, but he's concerned that things could deteriorate if the policy of the current government
    of Israel to install terror continues.

    How does that cause you to draw a parallel between Nazism and Zionism?


    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    As for the European parliament, no comment!
    What do you think about the points made in the report "Working Definitions of Antisemitism"?



    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    Ironically 20% of Haaretz is owned by German M Dumont Schauberg,
    Why is that ironic?

    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    son of Kurt Neven DuMont, a member of the Nazi party, while his publishing house promoted Nazi ideology.
    As I'm sure you know, under the Nazi regime, there was no such thing as a free press. You either published Nazi propaganda
    or you were shut down. Whether Kurt was a member of the Nazi party through ideology or necessity, I have no idea.
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,...292189,00.html

    Is this your logic?
    a) there is a German man who has part ownership of an Israel newspaper
    b) a member of his family was a member of the Nazi party
    c) Haaretz is therefore promoting Nazism

    The Russian, Leonid Nevzlin, also owns 20% of Haaretz. Is that also somehow suspicious?
    Last edited by tarka the duck, 11th April 2018 at 16:14.

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    Senior Member tarka the duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by KeepTrying View Post
    That's why it's imperative that the subject be discussed openly and thoroughly.
    Oh that made me laugh!

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  11. #51
    Senior Member palooka's revenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by tarka the duck View Post
    ...... How does that cause you to draw a parallel between Nazism and Zionism?
    simple! because, in my book, genocide is a form of dehumanization. Both are guilty. Its just that the zionists are going about it a whole lot slower and a whole lot more disguised. In part, this is made more possible due to the disgusting dynamics of antisemitism which is mostly a big fat guilt trip on steroids that way too many have bought in to!!


    What do you think about the points made in the report "Working Definitions of Antisemitism"?
    see last sentence above.

    Why is that ironic?
    because blatman and haaretz appear to me to stand for humanity. can't say the same for the nazis...

    Is this your logic?
    a) there is a German man who has part ownership of an Israel newspaper
    b) a member of his family was a member of the Nazi party
    c) Haaretz is therefore promoting Nazism
    hardley!

    The Russian, Leonid Nevzlin, also owns 20% of Haaretz. Is that also somehow suspicious?
    negative. not to me anyway. and, btw, i don't equate irony to suspicion...

    thank you for your questions. i realize you may not agree with me but i hope you find i've answered directly.

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  13. #52
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Zionists, if they exist in the form and fashion which is being presented here are a direct result of original 'bad'. Millenia of being treated as 'other' is a serious misstep according to the laws of Pathics. They have been removed from their place, displaced away from their source against their will and because of the loss have been subjected to a resultant loss of resources and a consequential loss of balance (even a balance that is reflective of creation). And most deleterious their contribution to the diversity of humankind challenged with genocide, All very 'bad' conditions that can only lead to a 'disastrous' outcome for the whole of humanity.

    Those that feel no empathy given these circumstances should expect no different result. This is really obvious to anyone that will use their head for something other than a hatrack.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Senior Member tarka the duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    In part, this is made more possible due to the disgusting dynamics of antisemitism which is mostly a big fat guilt trip on steroids that way too many have bought in to!!
    To clarify: am I right in thinking that you don’t believe that antisemitism exists? That you think Jews have fabricated their own oppression for personal gain?


    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    thank you for your questions. i realize you may not agree with me but i hope you find i've answered directly.
    And thank you for your response

    One thing you missed though: Could you please explain the significance - for you - of the ownership of Ha'aretz if my deduction was incorrect.

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    Quote Originally posted by palooka's revenge View Post
    In defense of KT I find chilling parallels between Zionism and Nazism.
    It is perfectly possible to have a discussion about the issue of Israel’s self-determination
    without entering the territory of anti-Semitism.

    The line between criticism of Israel, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are - like Israel’s borders -
    disputed. But one doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to know how to criticise the actions of
    a right-wing extremist government that is guilty of treating a group of people - in this case,
    the Palestinians - appallingly, without resorting to the propaganda of poisonous, inciteful
    rhetoric. The moment you do that, you’ve constructed a barrier to further dialogue.

    And that barrier increases in size the moment you mention the Nazis or Hitler in this context:
    all that does is deliberately causes pain, inflaming wounds that have not yet healed in a bid
    to win argumentative points. The vast majority of Jews in the world have relatives who were killed
    in the Holocaust: for them, this is not some abstract talking point or rhetorical crutch.

    You are using a strategy that’s known as “Holocaust Inversion”: comparing the actions of Israel
    to Nazi Germany isn’t only deliberately hurtful, it’s factually inaccurate. Choosing to link Zionism
    to the Nazi party when there are so many far more appropriate historical and contemporary
    comparators shows a reluctance to engage in a rational and civil interchange.

    To pretend an equivalence does two things: it exaggerates Israel’s guilt grotesquely, while
    at the same time, absolving the Nazis of their crimes of attempting ethnic annihilation on an
    industrial scale. Your claim is based on false moral equivalence: you are saying that there
    is no difference between two greatly dissimilar actions.

    What Israel has done/is doing to the Palestinians does not remotely resemble what the Nazis
    did to Jews and others. The scale and purpose are completely different, in ways so glaring
    that they really shouldn’t have to spelt out. If the Israelis treated Palestinians in the way that
    they were treated by the Nazis, two thirds of the Palestinian population would have been
    murdered by now.
    Between 1965 and 2013, there have been 21,500 casualties in the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
    In 1941, up to 20,000 people a day were murdered at Auschwitz alone.

    There are no gas chambers, no mobile killing units, no crematoria, no death squads, no lime pits,
    no massacre sites such as Babi Yar, no slave labour camps and concentration camps, no suppression
    of religious freedom, and no campaigns to hunt down and eliminate particular ethnic, religious
    and social groups.

    Such a demonisation of Israel - while ignoring genocide and mass killings that are happening
    in the world right now (think Myanmar, Mali, Somalia, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, CAR, Democratic
    Republic of Congo, Yemen …) could be an indication of deep seated bigotry.
    Which other countries with appalling human rights have their very existence questioned?

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  19. #55
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by tarka the duck View Post
    It is perfectly possible to have a discussion about the issue of Israel’s self-determination
    without entering the territory of anti-Semitism.

    The line between criticism of Israel, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism are - like Israel’s borders -
    disputed. But one doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to know how to criticise the actions of
    a right-wing extremist government that is guilty of treating a group of people - in this case,
    the Palestinians - appallingly, without resorting to the propaganda of poisonous, inciteful
    rhetoric. The moment you do that, you’ve constructed a barrier to further dialogue.

    And that barrier increases in size the moment you mention the Nazis or Hitler in this context:
    all that does is deliberately causes pain, inflaming wounds that have not yet healed in a bid
    to win argumentative points. The vast majority of Jews in the world have relatives who were killed
    in the Holocaust: for them, this is not some abstract talking point or rhetorical crutch.

    You are using a strategy that’s known as “Holocaust Inversion”: comparing the actions of Israel
    to Nazi Germany isn’t only deliberately hurtful, it’s factually inaccurate. Choosing to link Zionism
    to the Nazi party when there are so many far more appropriate historical and contemporary
    comparators shows a reluctance to engage in a rational and civil interchange.

    To pretend an equivalence does two things: it exaggerates Israel’s guilt grotesquely, while
    at the same time, absolving the Nazis of their crimes of attempting ethnic annihilation on an
    industrial scale. Your claim is based on false moral equivalence: you are saying that there
    is no difference between two greatly dissimilar actions.

    What Israel has done/is doing to the Palestinians does not remotely resemble what the Nazis
    did to Jews and others. The scale and purpose are completely different, in ways so glaring
    that they really shouldn’t have to spelt out. If the Israelis treated Palestinians in the way that
    they were treated by the Nazis, two thirds of the Palestinian population would have been
    murdered by now.
    Between 1965 and 2013, there have been 21,500 casualties in the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
    In 1941, up to 20,000 people a day were murdered at Auschwitz alone.

    There are no gas chambers, no mobile killing units, no crematoria, no death squads, no lime pits,
    no massacre sites such as Babi Yar, no slave labour camps and concentration camps, no suppression
    of religious freedom, and no campaigns to hunt down and eliminate particular ethnic, religious
    and social groups.

    Such a demonisation of Israel - while ignoring genocide and mass killings that are happening
    in the world right now (think Myanmar, Mali, Somalia, Sudan, Iraq, Syria, CAR, Democratic
    Republic of Congo, Yemen …) could be an indication of deep seated bigotry.
    Which other countries with appalling human rights have their very existence questioned?
    Very well stated...and a nice result would be for everyone to actually 'see' it.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Senior Member tarka the duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Very well stated...and a nice result would be for everyone to actually 'see' it.
    Thank you, NAP I was a bit worried about my tone (stroppy ), and I know that my thoughts on this topic
    aren't always welcome in the 'alt community' ... so I appreciate your support. K

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by tarka the duck View Post
    Thank you, NAP I was a bit worried about my tone (stroppy ), and I know that my thoughts on this topic
    aren't always welcome in the 'alt community' ... so I appreciate your support. K
    Well, truth is truth...and you seeith the truth...I, for one, am not prepared to tug on Superman's cape...whatever that's supposed to mean...
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    I'd also prefer to just keep the atrocious behaviours of each, separate to each other and not cloud the points that both are performing human rights violations.

    One of the more saddening techniques I recall a news article over was how the Israelis were performing psychological warefare in the form of regularly spraying Palestinian schools down with water trucks filled with effluent.

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    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    How can you say that when you don't discuss?
    I haven't gotten an answer to that question either. We're supposed to explore these ideas but discussion is not welcome. Keep Trying has made it clear she is not here for discussion. She does not connect with or communicate with members beyond threads. She has no desire to and has made this very clear.

    I'm not sure how that's supposed to set up an atmosphere for sharing these ideas and coming to conclusions. And she likes to try to tell us how to run the forum as well. But there is no effort to make real relationships.

    It's strange, to me.

    One-sided discussions are not discussions at all.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    Quote Originally posted by KeepTrying View Post
    That's why it's imperative that the subject be discussed openly and thoroughly.
    How can you say that when you don't discuss?
    I haven't gotten an answer to that question either.
    Ditto.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    We're supposed to explore these ideas but discussion is not welcome. Keep Trying has made it clear she is not here for discussion. She does not connect with or communicate with members beyond threads. She has no desire to and has made this very clear.
    Then perhaps KeepTrying ought to have a better look around, because The One Truth is supposed to be a community of people who wish to make a difference in the world, and this community just happens to be rooted in a discussion forum.

    Discovering the various truths that have been kept from us or have been twisted and spun to fit some imperialist political agenda is only part of it all. One does need the truth as a foundation for building the future, but it's this future which is important, not the events from a past that we cannot change. The arrow of time points forward, and we are responsible for what we leave behind when our time is up.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I'm not sure how that's supposed to set up an atmosphere for sharing these ideas and coming to conclusions. And she likes to try to tell us how to run the forum as well. But there is no effort to make real relationships.
    I too have already asked KeepTrying what she's here for — more than once, even — if she's not willing to look at the evidence that is presented to her, and if she's not willing to hear out anyone who doesn't agree with either her own opinions or those of the talking heads she's championing. I have asked her that several times, and I have presented her with subtle and not-so-subtle hints. But to this date, I have yet to receive any kind of response.

    Apparently KeepTrying thinks that it's perfectly alright to ignore — and in my case, even insult — the staff of the very forum she's a member of. And what is even stranger is that she should know from prior experience that things simply don't work that way, because she has tried the same thing over at Project Avalon, and she was banned from there for that very same reason.

    So now KeepTrying has the choice: she can continue to ignore my posts, this one included, or she can abandon her antisocial fingers-in-the-ears passive-aggressive demeanor. But something's got to give, and my patience is starting to wear thin. The One Truth is not a billboard for anybody's personal propaganda, and ostracizing oneself by ignoring others isn't exactly how one builds a community, not to mention that it's also highly disrespectful toward the staff members who offer, run and maintain the very discussion platform itself.

    It is a host's moral duty to make guests feel comfortable, but it is the guest's moral duty to abide by the rules of the host's house. And if the guest doesn't like either the host or their house, then the guest should find somewhere else to stay. It's that easy.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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