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Thread: The Use of Crisis Actors

  1. #151
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    What team jersey am I wearing Fred?
    Let me take a wild guess: "Team Left"?

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    It's the team that says it wants to protect the Constitution.
    There are parts of Team Left I have come to absolutely adore, and they have a pretty good overall track record on that, even though any more they are doing a lot of resting on past laurels. But it's just that one certain amendment in the original Bill of Rights they seem to have this problem with.

    But just as the Right has it's stumbling blocks, the Left keeps getting lured into this trap of letting the emotions be played with Icke's famous Problem Reaction Solution scenario: "Something must be done! Now!"

    That's how the Patriot Act was born, same basic thing but different teams. "We're under attack, do something now! We'll worry about our damn freedoms later! The Constitution is not a suicide pact!"

    Remember those acute emotions post 9/11? Well that's very similar to what's happening here.

    Since the time I first hit the forum scene all wet behind the ears back in late 2010, a vast majority of the chatter has of course been the mistrust of big government, especially the US government. That US government who relishes war in foreign lands, loves to create and fan the flames of other little proxy wars, loves to assassinate, torture, undermine, spy, create false flags, and is of course by far the world's largest arms dealer. Or as in the case of ISIS, we just GAVE them whatever weaponry they needed...

    And this is the same government a sizeable part of forum world now wants to step in, and solve America's gun debate? That it may well have instigated in a myriad of ways itself? Don't tell me things like Operation Northwoods are not still very much so on the table. And they've gotten a LOT more sophisticated sine the early 60's.

    Operation Northwoods was a proposed false flag operation against the Cuban government that originated within the U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) of the United States government in 1962. The proposals called for the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other U.S. government operatives to commit acts of terrorism against American civilians and military targets, blaming it on the Cuban government, and using it to justify a war against Cuba. The plans detailed in the document included the possible assassination of Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees on the high seas, hijacking planes, blowing up a U.S. ship, and orchestrating violent terrorism in U.S. cities.[2] The proposals were rejected by the Kennedy administration.[3]

    At the time of the proposal, communists led by Fidel Castro had recently taken power in Cuba. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the U.S. Government.[4] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:

    The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

    Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    So I ask again, why only certain parts? Why protect the Second but leave the rest to whatever? It's never made any sense to me and I can tell you my parents didn't think it was smart to focus on just one part of the Constitution at all.

    Why just the Second?
    Because we're talking about guns. If the conversation were about questioning the validity of free speech in a modern society I would invoke the 1st, how to keep from incriminating one's self with law enforcement the 5th, or what to do if a cop wants to pat you down and search your car without probable cause, the 4th, etc.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    No surprise there. And it's not even about you, Fred. What you do is nothing new. I got a lifetime of experience with it.
    Well that's not very nice, nor very accurate.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  3. #152
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Let me take a wild guess: "Team Left"?

    There are parts of Team Left I have come to absolutely adore, and they have a pretty good overall track record on that, even though any more they are doing a lot of resting on past laurels. But it's just that one certain amendment in the original Bill of Rights they seem to have this problem with.

    But just as the Right has it's stumbling blocks, the Left keeps getting lured into this trap of letting the emotions be played with Icke's famous Problem Reaction Solution scenario: "Something must be done! Now!"

    That's how the Patriot Act was born, same basic thing but different teams. "We're under attack, do something now! We'll worry about our damn freedoms later! The Constitution is not a suicide pact!"

    Remember those acute emotions post 9/11? Well that's very similar to what's happening here.

    Since the time I first hit the forum scene all wet behind the ears back in late 2010, a vast majority of the chatter has of course been the mistrust of big government, especially the US government. That US government who relishes war in foreign lands, loves to create and fan the flames of other little proxy wars, loves to assassinate, torture, undermine, spy, create false flags, and is of course by far the world's largest arms dealer. Or as in the case of ISIS, we just GAVE them whatever weaponry they needed...

    And this is the same government a sizeable part of forum world now wants to step in, and solve America's gun debate? That it may well have instigated in a myriad of ways itself? Don't tell me things like Operation Northwoods are not still very much so on the table. And they've gotten a LOT more sophisticated sine the early 60's.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods



    Because we're talking about guns. If the conversation were about questioning the validity of free speech in a modern society I would invoke the 1st, how to keep from incriminating one's self with law enforcement the 5th, or what to do if a cop wants to pat you down and search your car without probable cause, the 4th, etc.



    Well that's not very nice, nor very accurate.
    Fred, that's pretty good research...here's a follow up opinion on Northwoods that I got from the wiki footnotes:

    'Over the Edge'

    The Joint Chiefs at the time were headed by Eisenhower appointee Army Gen. Lyman L. Lemnitzer, who, with the signed plans in hand made a pitch to McNamara on March 13, 1962, recommending Operation Northwoods be run by the military.

    Whether the Joint Chiefs' plans were rejected by McNamara in the meeting is not clear. But three days later, President Kennedy told Lemnitzer directly there was virtually no possibility of ever using overt force to take Cuba, Bamford reports. Within months, Lemnitzer would be denied another term as chairman and transferred to another job.

    The secret plans came at a time when there was distrust in the military leadership about their civilian leadership, with leaders in the Kennedy administration viewed as too liberal, insufficiently experienced and soft on communism. At the same time, however, there real were concerns in American society about their military overstepping its bounds.

    There were reports U.S. military leaders had encouraged their subordinates to vote conservative during the election.

    And at least two popular books were published focusing on a right-wing military leadership pushing the limits against government policy of the day.

    The Senate Foreign Relations Committee published its own report on right-wing extremism in the military, warning a "considerable danger" in the "education and propaganda activities of military personnel" had been uncovered. The committee even called for an examination of any ties between Lemnitzer and right-wing groups. But Congress didn't get wind of Northwoods, says Bamford.

    "Although no one in Congress could have known at the time," he writes, "Lemnitzer and the Joint Chiefs had quietly slipped over the edge."


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Incidentally, I"m under the impression that most law enforcement is in favor of some gun control. And as we can see on the daily news many of them are serial killers in an official uniform.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 31st March 2018 at 17:06.
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  5. #153
    Senior Member United States Dumpster Diver's Avatar
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    There was a book (and movie) out in the 60s: “Seven Days in May” about a military coup in the US:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Days_in_May

    If the JFK assassination had not happened, this was probably “planned”as a backup.
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  7. #154
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Next wednesday it will have been exactly 50 years from the murder of MLK. What a terrible loss... So much was happening back then and US more or less descended into chaos after it and then rose from it in the 70's although you had those war mongering maniacs running the country later on and threatening the world with WW3. I truly do believe that MLK was the last great true leader of America in every sense of the word. You don't get to have people like that very often and when you do, they get shot.

    Last edited by Wind, 31st March 2018 at 19:49.

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  9. #155
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Next wednesday it will have been exactly 50 years from the murder of MLK. What a terrible loss... So much was happening back then and US more or less descended into chaos after it and then rose from it in the 70's although you had those war mongering maniacs running the country later on and threatening the world with WW3. I truly do believe that MLK was the last great true leader of America in every sense of the word. You don't get to have people like that very often and when you do, they get shot.
    I don't know if anyone remembers this song:
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  11. #156
    Senior Member United States GraceKB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    Next wednesday it will have been exactly 50 years from the murder of MLK. What a terrible loss... So much was happening back then and US more or less descended into chaos after it and then rose from it in the 70's although you had those war mongering maniacs running the country later on and threatening the world with WW3. I truly do believe that MLK was the last great true leader of America in every sense of the word. You don't get to have people like that very often and when you do, they get shot.
    MKL's granddaughter spoke at the March For Our Lives march last week as a surprise guest. She's a lovely young lady


    Last edited by Aragorn, 1st April 2018 at 05:17. Reason: fixed your video link ;)

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  13. #157
    Senior Member United States GraceKB's Avatar
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    These are not crisis actors

    They are real students that experienced a real tragedy that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

    Parkland students:

    Samantha Fuentes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEFqRTigvDQ

    Ryan Deitsch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCy5AzdqixQ

    The march on 3/24/18 was not just about school shootings/mass shootings, it was about gun violence and how it impacts all of us. Chicago and South Central Los Angeles are two areas where gun violence is out of control. Here are three teenagers from those two areas that you'll never see in the news

    Edna Chavez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy_ZVjDJxAs

    Alex King and D'Angelo McDade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GSFjXd_Ibs

    IMHO these kids should be admired and encouraged, not disparaged on TV, YouTube, and social media.

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  15. #158
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Incidentally, I"m under the impression that most law enforcement is in favor of some gun control.
    Actually, cops are some of the biggest supporters of gun rights out there.

    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    These are not crisis actors

    They are real students that experienced a real tragedy that will haunt them for the rest of their lives.
    Agreed.


    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    Chicago and South Central Los Angeles are two areas where gun violence is out of control.
    Two areas with some of the tightest gun restrictions in the country. Any ideas what further legislation could make things better, that haven't already been enacted?

    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    IMHO these kids should be admired and encouraged, not disparaged on TV, YouTube, and social media.
    Fine line here. Yes they are kids, but they have also (with a lot of special interest help) injected themselves/been injected into a main artery of raucous American political discourse. Should they have cart blanche to tell some people they have blood on their hands, others they are coming for them like the young Joan of Arc, yet also at the same time be shielded from any genuine criticisms from those in disagreement?

    Personally I have a problem with a lot of the cheap shots aimed their way (Laura Ingram being the most recent), but the marketplace of ideas should be fair game. Or is it different in this case? If it is, then we have a 1st Amendment issue arising as well.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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  17. #159
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Actually, cops are some of the biggest supporters of gun rights out there.



    Agreed.




    Two areas with some of the tightest gun restrictions in the country. Any ideas what further legislation could make things better, that haven't already been enacted?



    Fine line here. Yes they are kids, but they have also (with a lot of special interest help) injected themselves/been injected into a main artery of raucous American political discourse. Should they have cart blanche to tell some people they have blood on their hands, others they are coming for them like the young Joan of Arc, yet also at the same time be shielded from any genuine criticisms from those in disagreement?

    Personally I have a problem with a lot of the cheap shots aimed their way (Laura Ingram being the most recent), but the marketplace of ideas should be fair game. Or is it different in this case? If it is, then we have a 1st Amendment issue arising as well.
    Yes, David Hogg is crossing a line that shows his immaturity...he might be a conservative.

    Some research has been done suggesting that the gun flow is coming from unregulated areas. Much like the guns moving south across the border. But it's like comparing war zones against Denmark.

    It's a continuum. one can't pick and choose isolated examples to represent the holistic situation.

    A better representation is where the mass killings occur.
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  19. #160
    Senior Member United States GraceKB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Actually, cops are some of the biggest supporters of gun rights out there.



    Agreed.




    Two areas with some of the tightest gun restrictions in the country. Any ideas what further legislation could make things better, that haven't already been enacted?



    Fine line here. Yes they are kids, but they have also (with a lot of special interest help) injected themselves/been injected into a main artery of raucous American political discourse. Should they have cart blanche to tell some people they have blood on their hands, others they are coming for them like the young Joan of Arc, yet also at the same time be shielded from any genuine criticisms from those in disagreement?

    Personally I have a problem with a lot of the cheap shots aimed their way (Laura Ingram being the most recent), but the marketplace of ideas should be fair game. Or is it different in this case? If it is, then we have a 1st Amendment issue arising as well.
    My purpose for writing the post you quoted was to stress that they are not crisis actors, to which you agreed. I also wanted to show that there is more to this issue than "raucous American political discourse" namely human suffering that no one should have to endure, let alone kids. I understand that some get nervous when they have to deal with emotions but hey, it's an emotional issue, like it or not.

    I'm glad you have a problem with the cheap shots. I do too. I disagree that they "injected themselves" into anything. They were thrust into this. Now they are trying to deal with their grief by making changes in a lawful way. Do you think it's okay that the gun lobby controls so many politicians via contributions?? If you want to know what solutions they are working on in Chicago and LA, ask them. They provided their names and the names of the organizations they belong to. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your questions. I speak for no one but myself.

    Please don't ask me to speak for everyone that has said something that pissed you off. I have no idea what you're reference to Joan of Arc is about. It wasn't said by anyone in the links I provided. I did hear the "blood on your hands" comment made by some of the students to the politicians that have done virtually nothing to address the problem of gun violence. I agree with them.

    There is no 1st amendment issue here. Civil discourse is needed and appreciated.

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  21. #161
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Let me take a wild guess: "Team Left"?
    Are you sure? Most people end up getting it wrong. What is it you think I believe that makes me left?

    Is it my family values? (I've made it clear raising my son was my number one job)

    Is it my personal responsibility? (No one here or anywhere else has seen me pawn off responsibility onto anyone)

    Is it my decades of monogamy? (I've made that clear, too)

    Is it my integrity? Is it my honor?

    What is it?

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  23. #162
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Well that's not very nice, nor very accurate.
    I certainly don't mean to be unkind. Perhaps you can help me find a nice way to point out when someone avoids answering the question to instead talk about perceived personal qualities.

    Why not address the very important point made? The point compared efforts surrounding the First as well as the Second Amendments. Because the Bill of Rights contains the first Ten. It's an important unit, unchanged in its antiquity, as the post said.

    That's what gives all of those Amendments such Gravitas.


    Your initial response? Nil. Nada. Nothing.

    Oh yeah, something about blinders.


    This discussion is in no way limited to the Second Amendment.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I would never support efforts to overturn the Second Amendment. It's a stupid idea for reasons that have already been posted.

    The last thing we need in this country currently is a Civil War which is what we would have. And while we're busy being collectively stupid on both sides the rest of the world will take advantage in ways we have no concept of. Doesn't matter if we're Joe Six-pack or Cosmo Charlie. (I made that second name up)

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    And while we're busy being collectively stupid on both sides the rest of the world will take advantage in ways we have no concept of.
    When you say both sides, I'm assuming you mean left-right/Democrat-Republican/Liberal-Conservative.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I don't think we need to worry about the rest of the world.

    We need to worry about ourselves—you're an American and so am I.

    We need to figure out how to save our country.

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  29. #165
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    Please don't ask me to speak for everyone that has said something that pissed you off.
    I'm not at all pissed pissed off, just speaking straight on.

    Quote Originally posted by GraceKB View Post
    I have no idea what you're reference to Joan of Arc is about. It wasn't said by anyone in the links I provided.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm4IiJXDVvM


    Time for me to step back out of this emotional loosh fest. A fine line to dance in between this one and it's partner the Q phenomena.
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 1st April 2018 at 03:13.
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