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Thread: 432 - The Sacred Number?

  1. #16
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    I cannot vouch for other people's experiences, and I'm not going to touch upon the many different meanings of the number 432 as per the subject of this thread, but when it comes to a musical instrument tuning where the middle A on the piano — which is the reference point for all other instruments in the band or orchestra — equals 432 Hz, then I personally feel that there may be a lot of suggestibility at play on account of the benefits of "A equals 432 Hz".

    The thing is that "the middle A of the piano keyboard should equal 432 Hz" doesn't have any natural reference point whatsoever, because the Hertz as a unit of frequency represents the number of full sine vibrations per second, while the second as a unit of time is an entirely man-made construct — and not even an accurate one at that, which is why we have leap seconds. Furthermore, the speed at which Earth rotates around its own vertical axis — which is what our 24-hour clock is based upon — isn't even constant. Earth is actually slowing down in its rotation. During the time of the dinosaurs, an Earth day lasted only 21 hours according the standardized length of an Earth hour as we know it today.

    What I will however acknowledge is that the tuning of stringed instruments to have the A note equaling 432 Hz may indeed relieve certain tuning stability problems and may possibly feel a bit more pleasant, even if only because tuning everything down to a slightly lower frequency also puts less tension on the strings, and — something which might easily be overlooked — less tension on the strings also means that the strings will be closer to the frets, because there is less string pull on the neck of the instrument, and thus there is less neck relief (i.e. less upward curvature of the fingerboard from the neck heel toward the nut). So the strings of a guitar, bass guitar, banjo, mandolin, et al, will be easier to press against the frets when the A is tuned to 432 Hz than when it is tuned to 440 Hz. But then again, a lighter gauge of strings could result in the same additional comfort without dropping the A to 432 Hz.

    Being a guitarist myself, I can't say that I have ever heard or experienced any difference in quality, other than the slightly reduced tension on the strings when the guitar is tuned below concert pitch — i.e. which is where the middle A on the piano is tuned to 440 Hz. Concert pitch works just fine for me.

    I do use different gauges of strings depending on the guitars I play. My Gibson guitars have a 24.75" scale length, and there I use .010-.046 strings — my Gibson Les Paul currently has .010-.052 on it, but I don't like the sound of that, so I'm going to go back to .010-.046. My other guitars have a 25.5" scale length, and on those, I use .009-.042 strings. In spite of the slightly longer scale length, the .009-.042 gauge has less tension on a 25.5" scale neck than .010-.046 on a 24.75" scale neck.

    And it's not so much the feel of this tension on my fretting hand that matters in this context, but rather the feel of the tension for the picking hand. My Gibsons also have a wider string spacing than my other guitars, and their necks are slightly tilted back with regard to the body due to the higher bridge construction. So for me, a 25.5" scale works best, and on a so-called superstrat guitar — so named because they are somewhat more modern takes on the recipe of the Fender Stratocaster — with the narrower string spacing, .009-.042 strings and a neck that sits perfectly parallel with the body of the guitar. And of course, superstrats commonly also feature a whammy bar, which has become an integral part of my style.

    Maybe it's because I had already been playing guitars like that for 23 years before I bought my first Gibson, or maybe it's because although Gibsons are really great guitars for what they offer, at the same time, they're also quite limited in versatility — at least, they are to me. You don't even have to think about playing something by Eddie Van Halen on a Gibson Les Paul, SG or Firebird. It just won't work. But you can certainly play Santana stuff, or Boston stuff, or even the old Les Paul & Mary Ford stuff on a Strat-style guitar. It'll just sound a bit different, but a lot of that depends on the wood type and the pickups.

    Many superstrats have bodies made from mahogany, which is the preferred wood used by Gibson, and just as many of those superstrats also have humbucking pickups in at least the bridge position, and in that case, commonly in the neck position as well. The real Fender Stratocaster has a body of either ash or alder, which sounds quite a bit brighter than mahogany, and in its default configuration it also has three single-coil pickups, connected to a five-way selector switch — or a three-way switch on Strats made before 1975.

    Anyway, my bottom line is that it's all very subjective, and that there may also be suggestibility involved, as I already wrote higher up in this post.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  3. #17
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    Good Morning,

    I hear what you're saying Aragorn. The fact is nothing in the study of nature is exact. But the patters within nature are still present. As a fellow musician who's preferred instrument is in fact the Les Paul, I started out in music playing the violin. No frets needed. Strictly general finger placement, proper tuning and ear.

    I most assuredly hear a difference in said tuning. While achieving the same note in both tunings, my ear hears a different tonal quality. As nothing in nature as I mentioned is exact hearing involves the ear canal which indeed is as nature not exact and various size ear canals can hear tonal quality perhaps while yes...and exact note reaches that ear...the sound and tonal quality may indeed vary from listener to listener.

    About the factor nine grid explained by the author of the video a prominent tone featured was in fact f#. The combined geometric shapes applied in combination produced specific harmony not to mention the measurements. before the author ever produced the said video I had noted years back the F# within the sound chamber of the Kings chamber within the Great Pyramid, and noted that a neutron star produced the very same F#. Present in the factor nine grid.

    Thus I don't think the factor nine grid that was discussed in the Pythagorean tuning regarding tonal quality is simply dumb luck...or subjective. As we are all made of molecules and cells with various degrees of size that do indeed vibrate, we also have our own unique DNA which in turn has it's own mutations to a varying degree. I'm a good example. I have somewhere in my DNA a mutation that ended up in producing the very cancer I have. So one size does not fit all and where tonal quality is heard...that would not be exact either. While you do not hear the difference in tonal quality does not mean it's not in fact there. Because I can most assuredly hear it. Now there are people out there who in fact do not hear it but are afflicted with tone deafness. They probably can't hear it either.

    So just my two cents...for what it's worth.
    Last edited by Shadowself, 5th August 2018 at 13:16.

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    Super Moderator Norway Elen's Avatar
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    Lindsey Stirling - Elements [Dubstep Violin Original Song] 432 Hz

    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I wanted to play violin. My parents nixed it. We had a piano already and they sure didn't want to hear me practicing.

    Playing music is a wondrous experience. I also sang in a choir for years. I still sing along at shows and I like percussion instruments like shakers and tambourines.

    I'm a big fan of drumming and rhythm.

    And we like to go out and dance.

    I haven't asked any of the musicians we know about 432 yet.

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    Super Moderator Norway Elen's Avatar
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    I found this example also interesting by comparing the two sounds, i.e. 440 hz and 432 hz, first separate and then together. 440 hz nearly did my whole body in.

    This video is a cymatic version of Sound Frequencies in Water: A=440 Hz vs. A=432 Hz. It has been said that music tuned in A=432 Hz is more beautiful and harmonious to the ears and induces a more inward experience where music tuned in A=440 Hz is more outward, mental experience which is projected outwards. I am sure you have already seeing the following still photos of how the A=440 Hz vs A=432 Hz looks like. They have been circulating the net for some time. Well I thought it will be cool to generate them using my cymatoscope…and so I did…in real time! It is said that “a picture is worth a thousand words”...well I would add that "a video is a perfect shot of reality..." Conclusion: Don't let yourself be fooled by images you have been shown on the net. Investigate the truth yourself! This is how the A=440 Hz vs. A=432 Hz patterns look like in real time! There is also a sample what happens when both notes are played together.

    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Elen View Post
    I found this example also interesting by comparing the two sounds, i.e. 440 hz and 432 hz, first separate and then together. 440 hz nearly did my whole body in.
    wow, now that would be an effective torture mechanism... Does anyone know why sound frequencies are important...I don't get it really.

    I do remember hearing of a composer trying new sound techniques at a concert and literally starting a riot... It seems to me that this is just the nature of physical things. We evolved senses to function within it and to me that would explain the 'synchronicities'. But the 'sacred' nature of such escapes me. Natural, physical, mathemathical law.

    Without them there would only be chaos and no life.

    One thing I learned recently. To apply the term 'sacred' to a natural frequency one has to 'know' what it represents, it could be demonic or it could be just a frequency. Similarly, in a way, that to claim significance for mathematical synchronicities one has to have a firm grasp of what the mathematics is representing, otherwise it is an unknown and really not applicable in a 'useful' fashion.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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  13. #22
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Member Reality Creation posted a fantastic cymatics video. The concentric circles at 4:21 are amazing.

    Steven Halpern - cymatic imagery of sacred chant recorded inside the Great Pyramid in 1981


    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 5th August 2018 at 17:04.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Didgeridoo

    This is done with a didgeridoo



    Can you didgeridoo to 432?

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Modwiz also had some great contributions on the above thread as well as one of his songs in 432.

    From Aianawa, and Modwiz again offers substance and song.


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  19. #25
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    Had to step away from the computer as one of the joys of my life came to visit me...my grandson with his dream boat eyes!

    Interesting videos and I had seen the water experiment before presented by Elen. It's not a precise science...be it water in a tank or sand on a plate. With the water one thing to take into consideration is the back reaction of a wave. Sand on a plate is also far from precise. But I noted a difference however so slight in the Cymatics experiment show here:


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zw0uWCNsyw


    But again not a precise science experiment. It does however show some variations in geometry and sound that play a very interesting effect. Noting the tighter effect that 432 plays where 440 the sand is a slightly bit more scattered. It's certainly a slight amount.

    @Dreamtimer...The violin was my first instrument...and when I was younger I wanted so badly to play the guitar instead. When my teacher and mother had discovered I was really good at it I had a real hard time shaking it...and did not get a guitar until my late husband bought one for me on my birthday along with some lessons...which I eventually dropped in favor of learning on my own. Once I got the basics of playing it and learning chords which you don't do on a violin I experimented on technique. I know Aragorn knows what I'm talking about regarding technique. When I started college my intent was in fact to major in Music. That changed after a time as I decided to go into business and that is how I got into the business sector. I ended up dropping the music career for 20 years as a director of finance for a fortune 500 company. I never felt that being a single mother and a music career was enough to support myself and my children.
    Last edited by Shadowself, 5th August 2018 at 17:35.

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  21. #26
    Super Moderator Norway Elen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Does anyone know why sound frequencies are important...I don't get it really.
    Here's your answer right here...look at this video supplied by Dreamtimer above...

    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    This is done with a didgeridoo


    Can you didgeridoo to 432?
    I noticed that there were subtle tonal changes but nothing was reflected in the em pattern...

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Modwiz also had some great contributions on the above thread as well as one of his songs in 432.

    From Aianawa, and Modwiz again offers substance and song.
    one of the cats is trying to get to the sound...

    I have a theory as to why I have always heard what seemed like bad notes in music. It is not the vibratory tone that is off...it could be a minute change in phase that produces the 'off' quality. I guess I'll have to investigate...nah...don't have time.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 5th August 2018 at 17:57.
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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Thank you for the second Sonic Geometry video, Shadowself. Fascinating stuff.

    And thanks for the vid on secrets in plain sight, Dumpy.

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    Senior Member palooka's revenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    wow, now that would be an effective torture mechanism... Does anyone know why sound frequencies are important...I don't get it really.

    I do remember hearing of a composer trying new sound techniques at a concert and literally starting a riot... It seems to me that this is just the nature of physical things. We evolved senses to function within it and to me that would explain the 'synchronicities'. But the 'sacred' nature of such escapes me. Natural, physical, mathemathical law.

    Without them there would only be chaos and no life.

    One thing I learned recently. To apply the term 'sacred' to a natural frequency one has to 'know' what it represents, it could be demonic or it could be just a frequency. Similarly, in a way, that to claim significance for mathematical synchronicities one has to have a firm grasp of what the mathematics is representing, otherwise it is an unknown and really not applicable in a 'useful' fashion.
    quote from a book i read long time ago...


    Feelings give movement to creation.

    Without feelings,
    there is no desire and without desire,
    vibration would stop.

    Vibration is life
    and so it follows that
    you must have desire
    to have life.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Wow, palooka, I like that quote a lot.

    Maybe that title can go into Amanda's thread.

    There is no reason on Earth that spiritual teachers should instruct you to let go of desire except that they are holding old images of Me that do not know how to live and readying you for death while telling you it is life everlasting they are readying you for instead. If you cannot allow desire to lead you into pleasant experiences, you may be heading yourself for Hell without realizing it.

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