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Thread: Watchers watching watchers

  1. #31
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    How could I possibly argue that, we live in different Universes... It's just my opinion but it seems that most moral centers would include a desire for fairness, justice, peace, and benelovence. Lacking that, I'm not sure one classifies as human and consequently represents a potential danger to those around them. That's a laugher isn't it...we see that played out every day.


    Actually, I just realized that you betrayed the ultimate sticking point...I wouldn't run things, if I did, then I would have to raise my level of moral distinction to an undesirable level of ambiguity.
    Last edited by NotAPretender, 14th January 2018 at 00:47.
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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  3. #32
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    What I don't get about those that identify as "left" or "right" is that both are necessary. These political ideologies basically break down to progressive and conservative. Clearly (well at least to me) both are necessary at certain times. To consider yourself one or the other is very limiting. What is even more disturbing to me is the lack of willingness to listen to the "other side", to the point where people feel personally slighted by someone who holds different views to them. I don't necessarily mean on this forum but in general.

    Of late I've been, what I call, slaughtering my sacred cows. IE Anything that I feel I believe strongly I put to the test and try to disprove it to myself. Some things have fallen by the wayside (many political structures and ideologies) others have only gained integrity (UFO related things). In fact most of my life I've "believed" in UFO phenomena and every couple of years I like to"check" myself.

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  5. #33
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    We can talk about racism and all kinds of other issues. When opinions become belief and faith and people won't talk anymore what is there to do? How do we get past closed minds to dialogue?

    If someone believes all people on welfare are black, how do you convince them otherwise? If someone believes brown-skinned people are naturally dumber how do you talk about that? It's pretty obviously not true. All one needs to do is take a look around the world and at history. What if they don't want to?

    How do you get someone to dialogue who wants to send Americans born here "back" to somewhere they never lived?

    If someone says "Socialism has never worked" can you get them to even watch a video like the one posted above?

    If the people on the extremes cannot be dialogued with, how do the majority of us in the middle talk and work together to stop the extremes from destroying us in their wars?

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  7. #34
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    We can talk about racism and all kinds of other issues. When opinions become belief and faith and people won't talk anymore what is there to do? How do we get past closed minds to dialogue?

    If someone believes all people on welfare are black, how do you convince them otherwise? If someone believes brown-skinned people are naturally dumber how do you talk about that? It's pretty obviously not true. All one needs to do is take a look around the world and at history. What if they don't want to?

    How do you get someone to dialogue who wants to send Americans born here "back" to somewhere they never lived?

    If someone says "Socialism has never worked" can you get them to even watch a video like the one posted above?

    If the people on the extremes cannot be dialogued with, how do the majority of us in the middle talk and work together to stop the extremes from destroying us in their wars?
    There are none so deaf as those who will not hear. Perhaps my reaction is the wrong one, but I tend to walk away from those people and leave them to their madness, because I know all too well how futile it is to pour energy into trying to get them to see the error of their ways.

    That is, of course, for so long as they are not harming anyone through said madness.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    but I tend to walk away from those people and leave them to their madness, because I know all too well how futile it is to pour energy into trying to get them to see the error of their ways.
    I find you can try to convince people of something until your blue in the face but it's never going to stick as well unless they come to "it" themselves. The best I think we can do in those situation (if we have the patience) is to open people up to other possibilities. Even if they reject it outright to begin with maybe it will plant a seed.

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  11. #36
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Jordan Peterson has recently become quite well known, to the point of being at a possible career change. He still teaches and he's reaching vastly more people than at university.

    This is about his interview with Cathy Newman. It's from The Atlantic.


    Why Can't People Hear What Jordan Peterson Is Saying?

    My first introduction to Jordan B. Peterson, a University of Toronto clinical psychologist, came by way of an interview that began trending on social media last week.
    [W]hat struck me, far more than any position he took, was the method his interviewer employed. It was the most prominent, striking example I’ve seen yet of an unfortunate trend in modern communication.
    First, a person says something. Then, another person restates what they purportedly said so as to make it seem as if their view is as offensive, hostile, or absurd.
    And the Peterson interview has so many moments of this kind that each successive example calls attention to itself until the attentive viewer can’t help but wonder what drives the interviewer to keep inflating the nature of Peterson’s claims, instead of addressing what he actually said.
    Perhaps she has used that tactic to good effect elsewhere. (And the online attacks to which she’s been subjected are abhorrent assaults on decency by people who are perpetrating misbehavior orders of magnitude worse than hers.)
    Newman relies on this technique to a remarkable extent, making it a useful illustration of a much broader pernicious trend. Peterson was not evasive or unwilling to be clear about his meaning. And Newman’s exaggerated restatements of his views mostly led viewers astray, not closer to the truth.
    In example:

    “So you’re saying,” Newman retorts, “that women have some sort of duty to help fix the crisis of masculinity.” But that’s not what he said. He posited a vested interest, not a duty.
    Newman: So you’re saying give people equality of opportunity, that’s fine.

    Peterson: It’s not only fine, it’s eminently desirable for everyone, for individuals as well as societies.

    Newman: But still women aren’t going to make it. That’s what you’re really saying.

    That is not “what he’s really saying”!
    The conversation moves on to other topics, but the pattern continues. Peterson makes a statement. And then the interviewer interjects, “So you’re saying …” and fills in the rest with something that is less defensible, or less carefully qualified, or more extreme, or just totally unrelated to his point.
    Actually, one of the most important things this interview illustrates—one reason it is worth noting at length—is how Newman repeatedly poses as if she is holding a controversialist accountable, when in fact, for the duration of the interview, it is she that is “stirring things up” and “whipping people into a state of anger.”
    To conclude, this is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of Peterson’s views. It is an argument that the effects of the approach used in this interview are pernicious.

    This has been one of the top tools of the right-wing media in America.

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  13. #37
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Dreamtimer, you are on to something very interesting here and you are absolutely correct and the technique is 'MADDENING' to me...it makes me almost homicidal...
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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  15. #38
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    It's a large part of why I can't watch Fox. Maddening is the word. I like being sane (-ish).

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  17. #39
    Senior Member United States Dumpster Diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    It's a large part of why I can't watch Fox. Maddening is the word. I like being sane (-ish).
    Well, it's not just Fox; everything else on TV news is unwatchable. I'm ready to cut the cable but the GF is holding out mainly because of Rachel Maddow. !BUT! $90 monthly cable bills are winning the argument for me.
    "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the object of your anger to die” ~ Anon
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  19. #40
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I haven't taken the wise mendicant path yet and I live in a system wherein I have responsibilities to several people therefore I must keep track of what's going on. And I need to look at all sources rather than cherry pick.

    Rachel is great because she tells a story. And she doesn't do the fallacy thing.

    It's just as important to keep abreast of the mainstream media as it is the alternative. To know what people are believing/motivated by. To know where the ignorance and enlightenment is. To know where the new energy is coming from and who's responding.

    And we have to pay for cable to get the internet. Because in the land of opportunity there are monopolies around every corner.

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  21. #41
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Rachel is great because she tells a story. And she doesn't do the fallacy thing.
    I'd have to strongly disagree with this. I really dislike the woman (well her TV persona anyway). I would say that she's either a bad journalist or a shill (maybe even mockingbird-esque)

    I've seen many videos taking her apart but this is the first one I could find (If you hate Abbey Martin then there's plenty of others you can find):

    Last edited by Aragorn, 5th February 2018 at 05:19. Reason: fixed your video link ;)

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  23. #42
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Abby taking apart Rachel? It's on! This should be good.

    Just so I'm clear, I'm not wedded to any particular persons or positions. I'm all for working out our crap and not blowing ourselves up in war. Which means that we can talk about why Rachel sucks or doesn't.

    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 5th February 2018 at 05:35.

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  25. #43
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    Well, by having Google News and Flipboard, I can stay abreast of most, if not all the major talking head points on TV, and waste much less time watching that drivel thus saving the money. Direct TV is $90 (with a bunch of movie channels I think) on top of higher speed internet which is about $50.
    "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the object of your anger to die” ~ Anon
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  27. #44
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Abby taking apart Rachel? It's on! This should be good.

    Just so I'm clear, I'm not wedded to any particular persons or positions. I'm all for working out our crap and not blowing ourselves up in war. Which means that we can talk about why Rachel sucks or doesn't.

    And this is why I love you guys

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  29. #45
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    MSNBC and Rachel Maddow are compromised by the corporatocracy. I would fade them and fast. And yes her ridiculous rant about 911 was so over the top amd wrong headed, it was a red flag that the woman can't think logically outside of her comfort zone.

    The facts point to an inside job of some kind.

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