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Thread: Belief and Certainty

  1. #16
    Super Moderator Norway Elen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Nothing View Post
    I believe in you actually Sandy, quietly going about your role as the even hand on this forum. I think you have some stories which would make many run for the hills, yet you sit calmly and yes exactly as you say in that last line.
    Well spotted...
    Whatever is true. Whatever is noble. Whatever is right. Whatever is lovely. Whatever is admirable. Anything of excellence and worthy of praise. Dwell on these things. Jesus Christ (I agree)

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  3. #17
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    What makes you believe in something?
    What makes you certain?
    Are there things which you actually can be certain of?
    Even when a name of a thing or person is given, from a time you weren't alive during, how do you believe?
    Are such things actual answers to mysteries?
    Do you just have to listen to your heart? your gut? or your head?
    Then, if or when it feels right, and you have decided you believe, do you jump to certainty?
    How does that work?
    Do you learn from those times when this happened and you realise you got carried away?
    How do you quantify being told about unknowable and often challenging concepts, theories, and histories, by people who are 'mere mortals'?
    Is faith different to belief?
    Does finding out EVERYTHING matter?
    What if finding out was cheating the maze?
    If the journey was meant to be made without looking too far ahead, and all attempts to do so fed back distortion?
    Do you think you would notice being duped in that way?

    No answers needed.

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  5. #18
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Hi Nothing,

    Can't help myself on this one...

    Faith is very different from belief. Faith doesn't need to be defended, belief most often does.

    Listen to the heart, gut, and head...It's the only way!
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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  7. #19
    Senior Member United States Dumpster Diver's Avatar
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    Well, I’m starting to think “reality” is a bit different for each of us, i.e. the timelines are different right down to each individual.

    The hologram shapes itself to your karma so I can be God and Aragorn can be a causal rebel.

    ...yeah, I’m a nut bar too. The math is getting to me.
    "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the object of your anger to die” ~ Anon
    "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." ~Yogi Berra
    "You can observe a lot by just watching." ~Yogi Berra
    “When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.” ~Will Rogers
    "If life gives you melons...you might be dyslexic" ~ Aixelsyd Dnarber

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  9. #20
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    Questions can be so enticing to answer.
    Sharing answers can be equally enticing.
    I find it hard to resist also, there's nothing wrong with it really.
    It can be very helpful to all, and very unhelpful.
    Sometimes it is a scramble to get ones self heard. Sometimes it helps to get ones thoughts out.
    Sometimes it is received as passive opinion, sometimes as if it were gospel, or as if the person demands it to be.
    Sometimes we are very quick to recoil when it conflicts our structure of belief.
    Sometimes we are aware of this. Other times we have wars.
    Or run from the challenge.
    Why do we run?
    Where do we run to?

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  11. #21
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dumpster Diver View Post
    Well, I’m starting to think “reality” is a bit different for each of us, i.e. the timelines are different right down to each individual.

    The hologram shapes itself to your karma so I can be God and Aragorn can be a causal rebel.

    ...yeah, I’m a nut bar too. The math is getting to me.
    there might be a lot of truth to that...that's why we have to think positive thoughts but most important is that we run those thoughts through our hearts, intestines, and minds.
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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  13. #22
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Faith is very different from belief. Faith doesn't need to be defended, belief most often does.
    The way I myself distinguish them is somewhat different, though. In my opinion, faith implies trust and/or confidence, while a belief is based upon empirical observation and/or recollection from memory, and is more vague in its outline.

    Of course, the term "belief system" has less to do with a belief and much more with faith, because it's a fairly coherent system of multiple and usually correlated suppositions which are accepted as true.

    As they say, your mileage may vary.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  15. #23
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    Aragorn, you always get me when I'm tired... I'll get back to you on that one...

    Nap
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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  17. #24
    Senior Member Amanda's Avatar
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    Sometimes I think about that old adage: Seeing is believing. When a person has experienced something, particularly something out of the ordinary - their perception and belief will be factored into their psyche.

    What I know now and what I knew when I was say twenty - has changed somewhat. I think I have always held some core beliefs, such as there always being decent People and the other type. Having learned much about psychopaths/sociopaths and narcissists - came to educate me on why the world is the way it is ....

    I do know that science has taught me that sodium fluoride is a toxic substance - as listed in Section 6 of the Poisons Register at the National (Canberra) University.

    I do know that the consumerism that currently dominates the millions of People who can afford to spend 'disposable' income, is impacting negatively on our planet Earth.

    I do know that literacy skills - reading and writing by hand - are becoming a lost art.

    I do know what I know - the list is long - due to life experience and reading. When I say; Reading - I mean widely. I don't just rely on the worldwideweb - I visit the library and read magazines and books and journals. I am always looking to learn.

    Anyone who has a belief system - must have had someone or something happen - to have impacted on their psyche? Yes/No/Maybe???

    Anyone who knows something or feels that they know something - must surely have a reason for that state of 'knowing' and that is a part of our natural instinct - isn't it????

    Lovely thought provoking thread and in a safe environment. What more could we need for a classroom of Learning. Thanks for starting this thread Nothing and thanks for the thought provoking responses everyone.

    Much Peace & Much Respect - Amanda

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  19. #25
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    This link was given to me the other day by some body who I had just met.


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    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwUR3Zabi-4

    A bit of Michael Tsarion. I still have not found one clip of his I have looked for for a while.

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    Senior Member United States Dumpster Diver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Nothing View Post
    This link was given to me the other day by some body who I had just met.

    Nice video. Kinda sums up my view.
    "Holding onto anger is like drinking poison and expecting the object of your anger to die” ~ Anon
    "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." ~Yogi Berra
    "You can observe a lot by just watching." ~Yogi Berra
    “When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car.” ~Will Rogers
    "If life gives you melons...you might be dyslexic" ~ Aixelsyd Dnarber

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  25. #28
    Senior Member sandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Nothing View Post
    This link was given to me the other day by some body who I had just met.

    I'm going to have to listen to this a few times I think.... thks

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  27. #29
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    Quote Originally posted by Nothing View Post
    This link was given to me the other day by some body who I had just met.


    While interesting to watch — even if only because it bundles so much information in such a relatively short presentation — I do not agree with everything being espoused in the above video. For one, this Athene person claims that consciousness is merely a byproduct of neurological activity, which is indeed the mainstream scientific vantage, but the material universe is only a reflection of the spiritual universe, not the other way around.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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  29. #30
    Senior Member BeastOfBologna's Avatar
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    All that for a propagand punchline...

    Good Point, Aragorn.

    His comment on death and afterlife as a misapprehension is probably true but he obfuscates the fact that earlier in his presentation he equates consciousness with quantum phenomena. If consciousness survives then by derivation we are no longer bound by macroscopic processes (3-d life) and enter a realm where our empirical observerations of reality no longer apply (i.e. the rules change...contrary to his statement).

    He also comments that the notion of the mind controlling the universe (reality) is fanciful at best. This is an oversimplification. Hard science has established that an observer is required to produce reality...and that makes sense if you think about it, it is the observer that moves the superpositional probabilites of an event occurring to a defined position, again stating the obvious, i.e. to a real event.

    If anything the complication is that multiple observers can potentially create multiple and differening real events, ala Mr Dumpster's analogy of one reality for each observer. But from a theoretical perspective can we categorically state that 8 billion humans and various numbers of Alien intelligences observing a single superpositional probability can not in fact produce that single event, in effect, controlling the universal reality. In particular, if that singular probability is a conscious thought? As he said, consciousness is by definition a property of that selfsame quantum phenomena.

    He also made the usual reference to free will as an illusion. Again no, at the quantum level, there is no before and after, a conscious thought must proceed a macroscopic action or the action never takes place. I would call that free will and that doesn't even consider the notion of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle which states (as we all know) that you can't pin down quantum behavior and as he explained the notion of time as the equal and opposite phenomena of space, given that neural activity takes place in a spatial dimension that is how boundless? Time is almost irrelevant from this perspective and how can we possibly determine which comes first, the blue chicken or the egg? I don't think we can, so I'm keeping my options open.

    And finally, Time...as scientists would describe it, time is an emergent property of the universe meaning it isn't a fundamental characteristic and I have no idea what the implications of that might be.

    The rest I agreed with....
    “But those who have been under the shadow, who have gone down at last to elemental things, will have a wider charity” - Herbert George Wells -

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