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Thread: Chaos and the Anti-Thread

  1. #871
    Senior Member PurpleLama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    So Republicans are now chanting "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!"

    Anyone here understand the danger and wrongness of wanting to lock up political opposition?

    It sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with an American Democratic Republic.

    Where else have we seen that in recent history? What kinds of countries lock up political opponents?

    Answer: not free ones.
    What about the danger of having a political criminal class while laws are applies more severely the poorer you are?

    The only such chant I am aware of was applied to Hillary Clinton. I can get behind that.
    Last edited by PurpleLama, 1st November 2018 at 16:25.
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Of course...but don't you see that is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Those people pose no more threat to you than your next door neighbor. Statistically less. This perception stoked by some darker side of humanity has existed as long as the world. It is a vestige of primordial man that we are better rid of. But I know it won't happen, it can't...All mankind can do is wait until the vestige removes itself for lack of evolutionary viability. Perhaps at that point social consciousness would be elevated beyond animal instinct.
    I always start out looking for the good in people. The reality is that not all people are good or have good intentions.

    It is naive to think otherwise.

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Melidae View Post
    I always start out looking for the good in people. The reality is that not all people are good or have good intentions.

    It is naive to think otherwise.
    So the next obvious question would be: When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had bad intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their bad intent on you?

    Projection: "Those with good intent expect bad people to do good, Those with bad intent expect good people to do bad!"
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    So the next obvious question would be: When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had bad intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their bad intent on you?

    Projection: "Those with good intent expect bad people to do good, Those with bad intent expect good people to do bad!"
    Beware two-edged swords. When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had only good intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their good intent on you?

    Do you trust your belief in their good intent enough to put your child at risk of rape or worse if you are wrong? Have you not seen any of the many videos out there of them throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, and carrying weapons? If their intent was to do good and work hard to become a part of this country, why not enter legally?

    There is no one who is all good or all bad. No one. Judge others all you want. But, please, do not put words into my mouth or think you can analyze me correctly. You have not walked in my shoes...you have no clue.

    Speck/plank...

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    Senior Member PurpleLama's Avatar
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    What kills me is that a group of the so-called caravan are getting ready to sue DOJ, DHS and the president for violating their constitutional rights. Um, you aren't an American citizen, you don't exactly have those. Last I checked, immigration policy according to the constitution is the purview of the executive branch, with the exception of the 14th.
    Sometimes God shines his magic light beam from outer space, and it works in mysterious ways.

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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    What kills me is that a group of the so-called caravan are getting ready to sue DOJ, DHS and the president for violating their constitutional rights.
    You got a source for that somewhere up your sleeve amigo? I couldn't find any mention of it.

    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    Last I checked, immigration policy according to the constitution is the purview of the executive branch, with the exception of the 14th.
    Not quite.

    The U.S. Congress — the legislative branch of the federal government of the United States — develops and passes legislation, which the president signs into law, and federal agencies (executive branch) implement legislation.
    https://www.migrationpolicy.org/arti...us-immigration
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member PurpleLama's Avatar
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    For the first part, here is one of the many links from the search "caravan sues trump"

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/02/migr...stitution.html

    For the second, I will get back to you. I dont recall exactly where I read it about a year or two ago, but I will find it.

    Add:

    It appears I was misremembering, and the argument was being made for the president doing his duty in executing laws which were constitutional in reference to immigration, not that the constitution was the direct source of the presidential duty i.e. his oath of office. Good call, Fred.
    Last edited by PurpleLama, 2nd November 2018 at 22:23.
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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    What kills me is that a group of the so-called caravan are getting ready to sue DOJ, DHS and the president for violating their constitutional rights. Um, you aren't an American citizen, you don't exactly have those. Last I checked, immigration policy according to the constitution is the purview of the executive branch, with the exception of the 14th.
    You may be referring to the so-called "Birthright Citizenship". Many think that this is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. It is not.

    Trump: Birthright Citizenship For Illegal Immigrants Not Covered Under 14th Amendment -- Daily Caller

    youtu.be/yjls1vzI3JE?t=211

    OPINION: Trump Is Right On Birthright Citizenship -- Daily Caller

    Aside from that. In order to have the protections of the U.S. Constitution, one has to be a citizen of the U.S. If you are a citizen of another country, then it is up to that country to protect the rights of their citizenry.
    Last edited by turiya, 2nd November 2018 at 22:44.

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Melidae View Post
    Beware two-edged swords. When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had only good intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their good intent on you?

    Do you trust your belief in their good intent enough to put your child at risk of rape or worse if you are wrong? Have you not seen any of the many videos out there of them throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, and carrying weapons? If their intent was to do good and work hard to become a part of this country, why not enter legally?

    There is no one who is all good or all bad. No one. Judge others all you want. But, please, do not put words into my mouth or think you can analyze me correctly. You have not walked in my shoes...you have no clue.

    Speck/plank...
    U really dont see the irony of that statement do u logic is not commutative. But it is revealing
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    What about the danger of having a political criminal class while laws are applies more severely the poorer you are?

    The only such chant I am aware of was applied to Hillary Clinton. I can get behind that.
    They've been chanting it about several people now. Sometimes it's a 'him'. It's a mob mentality. It's not about critical thinking.

    I can't think of a time in my life where the poorest haven't gotten the harshest applications of the law. That's been the way throughout my life and before. It's better now, a bit, and slowly, but it hasn't ended yet.

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    Trump threw out his typical "they tell me" without ever indicating any real people. I doubt anyone told him he can change a Constitutional Amendment by Executive order. Well, maybe Stephen Miller, who doesn't know what he's talking about.

    The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.

    As Sandra Day O'Connor said so well, we amend the Constitution to expand rights, not to restrict them. That's why the proposed marriage act was so problematic.

    Trying to redo the 14h Amendment is a devil's deal.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.

    As Sandra Day O'Connor said so well, we amend the Constitution to expand rights, not to restrict them. That's why the proposed marriage act was so problematic.

    Trying to redo the 14h Amendment is a devil's deal.
    How about the rest?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    How about the rest?
    oh Fred...which promotes the public good and which detracts from it. I am likely an American citizen because I was born here. Do 'I' want a psychopathic megalomaniac preaching to the lowest of us to take away my citizenshp...No, nor do I want to be shot in the back of the head because I've got brown skin. Is this really what we are? I don't say 'who' because this level of discourse isn't born of whos', it is born of whats'
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.
    Hey Dreamtimer

    I don't think that you are understanding this 14th Amendment correctly, or better... what Trump's signing an EO would actually mean.

    Trump is not signing an Executive to change the 14th Amendment. He is signing an Executive Order to have those that work for the government follow what the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly states. He's not changing the Amendment. The EO would only be a directive to enforce what already exists.

    Trump: Birthright Citizenship For Illegal Immigrants Not Covered Under 14th Amendment

    • Trump might issue a future executive order to end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants and some other non-citizens, adding “it was always told to me that you needed a constitutional amendment. Guess what? You don’t.”

    Trump:
    • “We’re the only country in the world where a person comes in and has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States … with all of those benefits,” Trump continued.

    • Birthright citizenship stems from the 14th Amendment of the Constitution which states that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

    • Existing judicial precedent, however, only clarifies that children of lawful permanent residents in the U.S. qualify for citizenship with no ruling on the children of illegal immigrants or temporary residents. Any executive order by Trump would only be able to legally target these [illegal] immigrant populations.
    - Daily Caller
    Last edited by turiya, 3rd November 2018 at 02:14.

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  29. #885
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by PurpleLama View Post
    For the first part, here is one of the many links from the search "caravan sues trump"

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/02/migr...stitution.html
    Okay, thanks.

    I see extreme political theatre not only in this case of only 6 out of thousands filing a ridiculous lawsuit, but the whole caravan thing in general. And apparently now new ones forming behind it...

    Bright shiny object ring a bell?

    As an aside, and aimed at the general audience at large: why are these countries so fucked up to begin with? America's most decorated soldier Major General Smedley Butler may offer some key insights:
    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
    ― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 3rd November 2018 at 02:28.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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