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Thread: Chaos and the Anti-Thread

  1. #856
    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Those are Senator Howard's words. It was his argument.

    The Amendment itself says:

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


    We need growth and energy. Immigration brings that. It always has. Immigrants have not been the criminals they are being made out to be. They come in, work their asses off, do jobs others don't want, and send their kids to college.

    Most of us come from immigrant stock. And most of our forbears did exactly what I just said.

    We really shouldn't spit on their memory and hard work which helped us to have the lives we do.
    Last edited by Dreamtimer, 31st October 2018 at 12:17.

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    Senior Member PurpleLama's Avatar
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    I think it is a bit premature to suggest Trump is going to try to change the constitution by executive order. He may make one setting policy around what is the original spirit of the 14th, the interpretation of which hinges around those words subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Because of it, two American citizens have a child in a foreign country, their child is still a citizen of the US and not of the country in which the birth takes place.
    Sometimes God shines his magic light beam from outer space, and it works in mysterious ways.

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  5. #858
    Senior Member Melidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Those are Senator Howard's words. It was his argument.

    The Amendment itself says:




    We need growth and energy. Immigration brings that. It always has. Immigrants have not been the criminals they are being made out to be. They come in, work their asses off, do jobs others don't want, and send their kids to college.

    Most of us come from immigrant stock. And most of our forbears did exactly what I just said.

    We really shouldn't spit on their memory and hard work which helped us to have the lives we do.
    Yes, those are Senator Howard’s words. I could spam this thread with quotes of the majority of others at that time, but I will not. I posted it to reflect the intent behind the amendment. They did not feel it necessary to spell it all out…to them it was self-evident. If you would like, I can spam away to prove my point of intent.

    Taken in isolation, I agree with your sentiments about immigration. But…there is a lot of history behind the idea of immigration…from where it started to its end purpose.

    I suppose one could start with the original idea behind the great american experiment…was it possible to not only create a land made up of people of different nationalities and cultures, but to have them organize individual governments according to location and eventually agree to form one federal government to oversee them all. George Washington himself believed it was a success, and envisioned the same possibility for Europe. (And how many years passed before a European Union was put into place?)

    Fast forward to Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi (1894-1972).
    Research on Kalergi has been interesting. He is one of the latest to be attacked by the alt-right. Finding objective information on him has been difficult, to say the least. The closest I’ve come is in an article by the Council of European Canadians, found here…https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2015/02/...an-europa.html

    The article comes in Part 1 and Part 2…fairly brief, an easy read, and by the time it is finished the potential ‘end game’ is revealed.

    The flames of white supremacy, racism, multiculturalism, etc. are being fanned for a reason….not only by those mentioned in the above article, but also by the Marxists for their own purposes…https://mises.org/wire/why-marxism-s...nomics-culture

    Almost as an aside, if you have the time, a good read is a work of fiction published in 1973 that has been called prophetic to our times. It is “Camp of the Saints” written by Jean Raspail. You can download a copy from here…https://archive.org/details/Camp-Of-...y-Jean-Raspail “Quote from Wikipedia: *

    The Camp of the Saints*(Le Camp des Saints) is a 1973 French novel by*Jean Raspail. The novel depicts a setting wherein*Third World*mass*immigration to France*and the*West*leads to the destruction of*Western civilization. Almost forty years after its initial publication, the novel returned to the bestseller list in 2011.”

    I’ve tried to be as brief as possible in an attempt to illustrate how important it is to view as much of the whole ‘picture’ as possible. There is much much more to be found if you’re interested in doing the research.
    "Oh Great Spirit, help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence." — Cherokee Prayer

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  7. #859
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Melidae View Post
    If you are referring to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.....

    Attachment 2278


    If the above is too difficult to read, it is in larger print here...


    Attachment 2279.jpeg


    If we're going to be changing constitutional amendments, we should be thinking about the 2nd.

    Read carefully, this is not culled from an obituary, as fitting as that might be...

    "A recurring question in American constitutional law has been who is a citizen of the United States. One of the defining events in the years immediately prior to the beginning of the Civil War was the opinion (PDF, 261KB) of Chief Justice Roger Taney of the Supreme Court of the United States in Scott v. Stanford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 404-407 that African-Americans were not citizens of the United States.

    After the conclusion of the Civil War the Congress took steps to address this ruling. In 1866 the Congress enacted, over the veto of President Andrew Johnson, the Civil Rights Act, 14 Stat. 27, ch. 31 (PDF, 97KB) which provided a definition of citizenship.

    However, because there were concerns that the Civil Rights Act might be subsequently repealed or limited the Congress took steps to include similar language when it considered the draft of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    Citizenship is defined in the first clause of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment as:

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.

    The amendment's language was drafted by the Joint Committee on Reconstruction. The language defining citizenship was not in the introduced version of the amendment (H. J. Res. 127), but, was moved by Senator Howard of Michigan on May 30, 1866. It was adopted by the Senate that day and later adopted by the House. The Senate's consideration of the Howard language can be found in volume 36 of the Congressional Globe, pages 2890 to 2897. The debate is available through A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation (PDF, 1.67MB).

    The debate in the Senate was conducted in a somewhat acrimonious fashion and focused in part on the difference between the language in the definition of citizenship in the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the proposed amendment. Specific discussion reviewed the need to address the problem created by the Dred Scott decision, but also the possibility that the language of the Howard amendment would apply in a broader fashion to almost all children born in the United States.

    The specific meaning of the language of the clause was not immediately obvious. In 1884 the Supreme Court of the United States in Elk v. Wilson, 112 U.S. 94, held that children born to members of Indian tribes governed by tribal legal systems were not U.S. citizens. In 1924 the Congress extended citizenship to all Indians by passing the Indian Citizenship Act, 43 Stat. 253, ch. 233.

    In 1898 the Supreme Court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, ruled that a child born in the United States to non-citizen parents was a United States citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."

    I might have overstated the inviolability of the amendment (though, I know conservatives claim to be strict constitutionalists, unless it is convenient to be otherwise)

    but Trump is mad...and at some point a convicted felon.
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  9. #860
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Here's a reality...

    The U.S. is never going to be a 'white's only' nation...Statistical analysis of current demographics makes that a lost fantasy. Trump can implement all the hate policies he will. He can inspire all the conservative orgiastic hate fests that he will, but it ain't never gonna happen that way. Time well spent is not dwelling on this conspiracy theory, like all the other conspiracy theories draining humanity of its positive energy.

    I guess if I was by nature a hateful human being I could get on board, but, alas and alack, I am not. What I witnessed was my dad, an immigrant with questionable credentials, yet a world word II veteran, a flag saluter, and all the rest, 'complain' about recent immigrants from the same part of the world that he came from. I would say that I love my father and that I admired his great character growing up, but I never understood what kind of human failing would make someone so blind as that.
    "A large infusion of cash will cure most forms of fanatacism" - Thumbnail Biographies

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  11. #861
    Senior Member Melidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Read carefully, this is not culled from an obituary, as fitting as that might be...
    If not "from an obituary" (what obituary???), then what is the source of this information?

    In 1898 the Supreme Court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, ruled that a child born in the United States to non-citizen parents was a United States citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."
    In its 1898 ruling in the Wong Kim Ark case, the Supreme Court held that the children of noncitizens, when born in U.S. territory, are U.S. citizens by birth. However, the parents in question in the Wong Kim Ark case were legal immigrants, meaning the court did not directly address the status of children born to parents in the U.S. illegally. https://www.conservativedailynews.co...-need-to-know/ (The whole article is worth a read. It actually may not reach the conclusion you expect it to reach, being a conservative website and all.)

    Wouldn't it be interesting if (besides Harry Reid) videos of Bill Clinton, Diane Feinstein, Charles Schumer, Hilliary Clinton, and Barak Obama supporting strong borders could be found? Oh wait, https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...r-baby-mistake did just that at the end of the linked article.
    Last edited by Melidae, 1st November 2018 at 02:07. Reason: forgot no one here is a mindreader, and left out the support of strong borders
    "Oh Great Spirit, help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence." — Cherokee Prayer

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  13. #862
    Senior Member Melidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    What I witnessed was my dad, an immigrant with questionable credentials, yet a world word II veteran, a flag saluter, and all the rest, 'complain' about recent immigrants from the same part of the world that he came from. I would say that I love my father and that I admired his great character growing up, but I never understood what kind of human failing would make someone so blind as that.
    Sounds to me like your Father was a wonderful man who loved this country, appreciated living here and was proud to be an American (even with "questionable credentials")...enough so that he would fight, putting his life at risk, to protect this country. Perhaps he could see that the recent surge of immigrants did not come/are not coming here for the same reasons he did...and was trying to protect this country still, in his own way, from those who would do it harm.
    "Oh Great Spirit, help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence." — Cherokee Prayer

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  15. #863
    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Seriously, Melidae,

    you've got me on this one...A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart. I see where yours is and though it might sound funny, it always depresses me when I see 'hate' coming from the fairer sex. For some reason, I grew up thinking that the fundamental role of females in human society was to nurture, not seek destruction. To understand the inner human, to value the soul, heart, and spirit. It makes me lose faith in the higher potential of humanity when confronted with the absence of these fundamental values. You win this one with no argument from me.

    Quote Originally posted by Melidae View Post
    Sounds to me like your Father was a wonderful man who loved this country, appreciated living here and was proud to be an American (even with "questionable credentials")...enough so that he would fight, putting his life at risk, to protect this country. Perhaps he could see that the recent surge of immigrants did not come/are not coming here for the same reasons he did...and was trying to protect this country still, in his own way, from those who would do it harm.
    no.
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  17. #864
    Senior Member Melidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Seriously, Melidae,

    you've got me on this one...A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart. I see where yours is and though it might sound funny, it always depresses me when I see 'hate' coming from the fairer sex. For some reason, I grew up thinking that the fundamental role of females in human society was to nurture, not seek destruction. To understand the inner human, to value the soul, heart, and spirit. It makes me lose faith in the higher potential of humanity when confronted with the absence of these fundamental values. You win this one with no argument from me.
    At first I was going to disagree with you that "A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart." But you are right. It does come from the heart.

    My children, my grandchildren are my heart. I would do anything to protect them. I would not invite a stranger into my home unless I knew who they were and what they wanted. Should that stranger barge their way in, the Mama Bear in me would do whatever is necessary to keep my family safe.

    I'm not immune to an immigrants plight of seeking a better life here in America. After working in this country, paying his taxes and waiting for years, my son-in-law finally received his citizenship papers less than one year ago. He was so proud, and so were we of him. He wanted to be a part of this country and did so by legally applying for citizenship.

    The people of the caravans do not want to integrate or to have a better life or become citizens. They are coming in illegally. The leaders have proclaimed they hate America. They are trying to break-in to this country by any means possible...like a stranger trying to break-in to my home. Knock on my door, introduce yourself, let me know why you're here and you may be welcomed. Barge in and I will defend myself and my family. What is so different when our country does that to protect its people?

    Hate? No. There is only love or fear...nothing else. And I choose love.
    Last edited by Melidae, 1st November 2018 at 03:07.
    "Oh Great Spirit, help me always to speak the truth quietly, to listen with an open mind when others speak, and to remember the peace that may be found in silence." — Cherokee Prayer

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    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post

    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Me too. I especially like the ending. I took my dog in the car and drove around some neighborhoods where people were trick-or-treating/giving out candy. It was a beautiful evening. People sit in their driveways and light fire pits. It's a fun atmosphere.

    The dog was quite excited about the kids in costume.

    I miss taking my son to trick-or-treat.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    So Republicans are now chanting "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!"

    Anyone here understand the danger and wrongness of wanting to lock up political opposition?

    It sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with an American Democratic Republic.

    Where else have we seen that in recent history? What kinds of countries lock up political opponents?

    Answer: not free ones.

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    Remember the dude from New York on the tractor running for senate?


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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Melidae View Post
    At first I was going to disagree with you that "A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart." But you are right. It does come from the heart.

    Of course...but don't you see that is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Those people pose no more threat to you than your next door neighbor. Statistically less. This perception stoked by some darker side of humanity has existed as long as the world. It is a vestige of primordial man that we are better rid of. But I know it won't happen, it can't...All mankind can do is wait until the vestige removes itself for lack of evolutionary viability. Perhaps at that point social consciousness would be elevated beyond animal instinct.

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    thanks for the outlet...
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