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Thread: Chaos and the Anti-Thread

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Allow me to quote my brother, "Most people are pennies. You could just throw them away and you'd never miss them. They don't make any difference."

    And, "Why are those people in the inner cities. They don't do anything. They don't contribute anything."

    Have you missed the fact that American conservatives have been talking about rounding up black American citizens and sending them "back to Liberia'?

    Did you miss the fact that we have children in concentration camps, some of whom have died due to neglect and worse?

    Just how bad does it have to get before we call it what it is?

    We've had corporate welfare and military jobs programs (i.e. weapons the Pentagon doesn't want) for my whole lifetime. There's plenty of middle class wealth going upwards. To the point that the middle class is disappearing.
    I'm not sure what your point is, but if you are really comparing ICE detention facilities to Concentration camps, you are simply creating a false equivalency. I'm not even American, but I find that comparison highly misleading.

    I'm aware that there is a history of racism in America, I certainly have no illusions about it, but there is a big difference between rhetoric and action. There is a similar issue here in Hungary with the far-right, who were until very recently openly anti-semitic and talked about creating a registry for Israeli-Hungarian dual citizens and barring Israelis from acquiring land in Hungary, that kind of thing. There is certainly danger in racist rhetoric, as there is a potential of it turning into action, but it serves no purpose to overstate the dangers. I do not think there is any real danger of expulsion of African-Americans from the country they have called home for centuries, unless some sort of Hitler-like figure comes into power. And no, Trump most certainly isn't in that category. I am aware of some in the US that would represent that kind of danger, but they are on the extreme fringes and there is no real possibility of them coming into any sort of position of power.

    In contrast, the openly racist and anti-semitic Jobbik party in Hungary regularly gets around 18 percent of the popular vote, which is not much less than Hitler's NSDAP got in Germany (33 percent I think), before they seized power. They even had a paramilitary arm which held marches in heavily Jewish and Gypsy-populated areas to intimidate the local population. Thankfully the current Orban government shut them down and the Jewish community in Hungary (about 1 percent of the country's population, but closer to 5 percent in the capital, Budapest) enjoys levels of safety and protection not seen in the likes of Britain and France, where they are effectively in hiding and have to mask their Jewish identity to stay safe. There are no need for armed guards to protect Synagogues in Hungary. However, I must admit that the way Gypsies are treated not just in Hungary, but all over Europe is atrocious. Their plight is probably as bad, if not worse than that of African-Americans.

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  3. #722
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    Has anyone heard of Micheal Lewis and his book The Fifth Risk?

    I love this quote from an interview on Face the Nation:

    "If we were gonna 'Money Ball' American society, and try to identify where people are really radically mis-valued, it's in the public sector, right there."

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  5. #723
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Have you missed the fact that American conservatives have been talking about rounding up black American citizens and sending them "back to Liberia'?

    Did you miss the fact that we have children in concentration camps, some of whom have died due to neglect and worse?

    Just how bad does it have to get before we call it what it is?
    This is a beaming example of the "holy war" I'm talking about. Each side screaming at the other from the confines of their respective echo chambers. Generalizing them, marginalizing them, demonizing them, which serves to ultimately de humanize them.

    "Liberals to this!". "Conservatives do that!!". "Something must be done!". Problem, Reaction, Solution. What does the final solution sometimes wind up being in this type of situation, historically? "Get them!"

    What's happening here is light years beyond politics. We're being played to be at each other's throats as pawns on a much larger chess board than Right v. Left. There be spelling some dark magick in the air, as one Age yields to the next.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    I didn't hang any labels, Fred. Not anywhere.

    Small steps, Chris.

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  9. #725
    Super Moderator Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    What's happening here is light years beyond politics. We're being played to be at each other's throats as pawns on a much larger chess board than Right v. Left. There be spelling some dark magick in the air, as one Age yields to the next.
    You are of course right, Fred. The game of division works so well...

    If there is "us and them" then that would be the common (awakened) man vs. the elite scum who are trying to control everything through their chaos magic. Of course the elite too has been divided into several different factions so there is not just one "Illuminati" who would be ruling over the world like Sauron. The military industrial complex surely plays a big part though.

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  11. #726
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I didn't hang any labels, Fred. Not anywhere.
    Come on now sister, is not this recent example I cited below the very definition of hanging generalized labels on a particular group of people? You and NAP do it consistently, like cheerleaders with pom poms for the home team: Boiled down it's basically "Left" wears the white hats, and "Right" wears the black hats. End of story.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Have you missed the fact that American conservatives have been talking about rounding up black American citizens and sending them "back to Liberia'?

    Did you miss the fact that we have children in concentration camps, some of whom have died due to neglect and worse?

    Quote Originally posted by Wind View Post
    If there is "us and them" then that would be the common (awakened) man vs. the elite scum who are trying to control everything through their chaos magic. Of course the elite too has been divided into several different factions so there is not just one "Illuminati" who would be ruling over the world like Sauron. The military industrial complex surely plays a big part though.
    Well, that to me is where things get a bit on the tricky side. The deeper I get into this thing, the more with snake eyes I look at even the "us vs. them" narrative concerning "us vs. the controlling elite". I'm thinking it's much more nuanced than that, and maybe worthy of some Socratic type of questioning:

    - What do they want, beyond the obvious lust for total control?

    - Just how long has this been going on?

    - What was the original motivation?

    - What is their end game?

    - Do they have one?

    - Who might they in turn be subjugated to?

    - And then a pivot to if most of us have indeed chosen to be here, why?

    - Are we just lost, crazy, gluttons for punishment, trapped, or is there something deeper? Perhaps something in it for us as well?

    - If we ever dare look it in the eye?

    - What if we are they? (Invoking "As above so below, as below so above").
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 2nd October 2018 at 22:34.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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  13. #727
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    "Boiled down it's basically "Left" wears the white hats, and "Right" wears the black hats. End of story."

    Now there's a statement that doesn't even require utterance. At this point in time the truth is vociferously screaming "Amen, brother!"
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Come on now sister, is not this recent example I cited below the very definition of hanging generalized labels on a particular group of people? You and NAP do it consistently, like cheerleaders with pom poms for the home team: Boiled down it's basically "Left" wears the white hats, and "Right" wears the black hats. End of story.






    Well, that to me is where things get a bit on the tricky side. The deeper I get into this thing, the more with snake eyes I look at even the "us vs. them" narrative concerning "us vs. the controlling elite". I'm thinking it's much more nuanced than that, and maybe worthy of some Socratic type of questioning:

    - What do they want, beyond the obvious lust for total control?

    - Just how long has this been going on?

    - What was the original motivation?

    - What is their end game?

    - Do they have one?

    - Who might they in turn be subjugated to?

    - And then a pivot to if most of us have indeed chosen to be here, why?

    - Are we just lost, crazy, gluttons for punishment, trapped, or is there something deeper? Perhaps something in it for us as well?

    - If we ever dare look it in the eye?

    - What if we are they? (Invoking "As above so below, as below so above").
    The end game is no mystery...those that have power and money want it all...One of my favorite phrases from the right is "They" are trying to steal our children's future. Get it, it comes from the depths of Jungian shadowland...Genes are running the minds of the low vibe folks.

    Incidentally, Mind is consciousness that emerges from the vacuum in those people's brains. They have no idea where these notions come from, only that they are there. It is the 'resistance to life' energy taking precedence over 'life'. It is completely contradictory and self-destructive. It's the vibe man, the vibe.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    As Aragorn has so eloquently pointed out, most all of America is conservative. Therefore, what I said is a mainstream attitude, not part of one side.

    The beast has one big mutant wing, or maybe ten. It doesn't really matter.

    We're still ripping children from their families and threatening US citizens. That's what's wrong, not whether there are two, four or six wings on the beast.

    And that argument is a poor substitute for dealing with these issues.

    I've seen several rants about the left/right crap and not one single word about these kids.

    It's a distraction.

    My brother was paraphrasing an early 20th century industrialist. What team was he even on? Does it matter?

    It's an attitude that's a century old and instead of addressing it, people spew about teams and left/right.

    It's sad.

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    The both sides myth is exactly that. A myth. And it has been for almost the entirety of my life.

    Revolution or Civil War part II?

    Thomas Friedman wrote in the NYT today:

    I began my journalism career covering a civil war in Lebanon. I never thought I’d end my career covering a civil war in America.
    In his piece "Friedman calls on the center-left and the center-right to come together and vote for politicians to put a stop to this. The problem with that is that there is no center-right any more, just an increasingly extreme minority consolidating power by every means they can get away with, whether it’s rigging FBI investigations, stealing a Supreme Court seat, or colluding with Russia to steal an election. They are openly looting the country, trashing the rule of law, and using racism and worse to energize their base."

    In essence, we’ve moved from “partisanship,” which still allowed for political compromises in the end, “to tribalism,” which does not, explained political scientist Norman Ornstein... In a tribal world it’s rule or die, compromise is a sin, enemies must be crushed and power must be held at all costs.

    It would be easy to blame both sides equally for this shift, noted Ornstein, but it is just not true. After the end of the Cold War, he said, “tribal politics were introduced by Newt Gingrich when he came to Congress 40 years ago,” and then perfected by Mitch McConnell during the Barack Obama presidency, when McConnell declared his intention to use his G.O.P. Senate caucus to make Obama fail as a strategy for getting Republicans back in power.
    My friend retired Marine Col. Mark Mykleby stopped by for a chat after the Kavanaugh hearing last week, and as we bemoaned this moment, he remarked: “When I walked out of the Pentagon after 28 years in uniform, I never thought I’d say this, but what is going on politically in America today is a far graver threat than any our nation faced during my career, including the Soviet Union. And it’s because this threat is here and now, right at home, and it’s coming from within us. I guess the irony of being a great nation is the only power who can bring you down is yourself.”
    "What Friedman fails to note is that it’s not just Newt Gingrich that has got us where we are today. This Civil War II has been building a long time. Its opening rounds begin with things like the Powell memo. It was advanced with moves like the end of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of talk radio and Fox ‘News’. It was fostered by the end of meaningful anti-trust action, and with the consolidation of corporate power. It scored a strategic victory with the Citizens United decision, and now Janus.

    If we want to be honest, Friedman’s Civil War II really began as the Reagan Revolution. People remember the kind, smiling face — but forget the racism and corporatism behind it, and the outright criminality like Iran-Contra."


    Steve Kornacki just came out with a book that examines the work of Gingrich to bring about his revolution.

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    My old phone which has no service received the new Emergency Alert.

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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    My old phone which has no service received the new Emergency Alert.
    I read about the alert on Slashdot just a few hours ago.
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    The both sides myth is exactly that. A myth. And it has been for almost the entirety of my life.

    Revolution or Civil War part II?

    Thomas Friedman wrote in the NYT today:



    In his piece "Friedman calls on the center-left and the center-right to come together and vote for politicians to put a stop to this. The problem with that is that there is no center-right any more, just an increasingly extreme minority consolidating power by every means they can get away with, whether it’s rigging FBI investigations, stealing a Supreme Court seat, or colluding with Russia to steal an election. They are openly looting the country, trashing the rule of law, and using racism and worse to energize their base."





    "What Friedman fails to note is that it’s not just Newt Gingrich that has got us where we are today. This Civil War II has been building a long time. Its opening rounds begin with things like the Powell memo. It was advanced with moves like the end of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of talk radio and Fox ‘News’. It was fostered by the end of meaningful anti-trust action, and with the consolidation of corporate power. It scored a strategic victory with the Citizens United decision, and now Janus.

    If we want to be honest, Friedman’s Civil War II really began as the Reagan Revolution. People remember the kind, smiling face — but forget the racism and corporatism behind it, and the outright criminality like Iran-Contra."


    Steve Kornacki just came out with a book that examines the work of Gingrich to bring about his revolution.
    Dreamtimer,

    According to this the Right is still the sole problem here. What can't you just admit that this is how you see things like NAP?

    Also, perhaps the international news stations in Belgium didn't inform Aragorn that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote here this go around, a black guy entered the White House in 2009 with a 68% approval rating, and his fellow Dems owned the House and Senate for his first two years.

    This hardly sounds like America is mostly Conservative. That's because it isn't.
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 4th October 2018 at 00:45.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    It took the time with a majority in congress for Obama to realize that trying to be "America's President" left him with only half a country. The possibility for compromise did not exist which he soon realized after being slapped in the face as his response to an outstretched hand. Plain and simple truth. The right's 'underground' money did more propaganda damage than the Russians have done. It is just not a level playing field when one is playing against the dark side.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    It took the time with a majority in congress for Obama to realize that trying to be "America's President" left him with only half a country. The possibility for compromise did not exist which he soon realized after being slapped in the face as his response to an outstretched hand. Plain and simple truth. The right's 'underground' money did more propaganda damage than the Russians have done. It is just not a level playing field when one is playing against the dark side.
    There, see how easy it is?
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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