Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23

Thread: Do Science and Spirituality Finally Meet?

  1. #1
    Administrator Aragorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    17th March 2015
    Location
    Middle-Earth
    Posts
    20,289
    Thanks
    88,624
    Thanked 81,099 Times in 20,304 Posts

    Thumbs Up Do Science and Spirituality Finally Meet?

    Given that this is an article regarding neuroscience, I could just as easily have parked this thread under Medicine & Health, but as it's about one of the most important aspects of our being, I think Spirituality & Psyche suits it better.





    Consciousness Goes Deeper Than You Think


    Awareness can be part of it, but it’s much more than that






    Source: Scientific American


    An article on the neuroscience of infant consciousness, which attracted some interest a few years ago, asked: “When does your baby become conscious?” The premise, of course, was that babies aren’t born conscious but, instead, develop consciousness at some point. (According to the article, it is about five months of age). Yet, it is hard to think that there is nothing it feels like to be a newborn.

    Newborns clearly seem to experience their own bodies, environment, the presence of their parents, etcetera—albeit in an unreflective, present-oriented manner. And if it always feels like something to be a baby, then babies don’t become conscious. Instead, they are conscious from the get-go.

    The problem is that, somewhat alarmingly, the word “consciousness” is often used in the literature as if it entailed or implied more than just the qualities of experience. Dijksterhuis and Nordgren, for instance, insisted that “it is very important to realize that attention is the key to distinguish between unconscious thought and conscious thought. Conscious thought is thought with attention.” This implies that if a thought escapes attention, then it is unconscious. But is the mere lack of attention enough to assert that a mental process lacks the qualities of experience? Couldn’t a process that escapes the focus of attention still feel like something?

    Consider your breathing right now: the sensation of air flowing through your nostrils, the movements of your diaphragm, etcetera. Were you not experiencing these sensations a moment ago, before I directed your attention to them? Or were you just unaware that you were experiencing them all along? By directing your attention to these sensations, did I make them conscious or did I simply cause you to experience the extra quality of knowing that the sensations were conscious?

    Indeed, Jonathan Schooler has established a clear distinction between conscious and meta-conscious processes. Whereas both types entail the qualities of experience, meta-conscious processes also entail what he called re-representation. “Periodically attention is directed towards explicitly assessing the contents of experience. The resulting meta-consciousness involves an explicit re-representation of consciousness in which one interprets, describes or otherwise characterizes the state of one’s mind.

    So where attention plays an important role is in re-representation; that is, the conscious knowledge of an experience, which underlies introspection. Subjects cannot report—not even to themselves—experiences that aren’t re-represented. Nothing, however, stops conscious experience from occurring without re-representation: Dreams, for instance, have been shown to lack re-representation, despite the undeniable fact they are experienced in consciousness. This gap between reportability and the contents of consciousness has motivated the emergence of so-called “no-report paradigms” in the modern neuroscience of consciousness.

    Clearly, the assumption that consciousness is limited to re-represented mental contents under the focus of attention mistakenly conflates meta-consciousness with consciousness proper. Yet, this conflation is disturbingly widespread. Consider Axel Cleeremans’s words: “Awareness…always seems to minimally entail the ability of knowing that one knows. This ability, after all, forms the basis for the verbal reports we take to be the most direct indication of awareness. And when we observe the absence of such ability to report on the knowledge involved in our decisions, we rightfully conclude the decision was based on unconscious knowledge.”

    Because the study of the Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC) is, by and large, dependent on subjective reports of experience, what passes for the NCC is liable to be merely the neural correlates of meta-consciousness. As such, potentially conscious mental activity—in the sense of activity correlated with experiential qualities—may evade recognition as such.

    As a matter of fact, there is circumstantial but compelling evidence that this is precisely the case. To see it, notice first the conscious knowledge N—that is, the re-representation—of an experience X is triggered by the occurrence of X. For instance, it is the occurrence of a sense perception that triggers the metacognitive realization one is perceiving something. N, in turn, evokes X by directing attention back to it: the realization one is perceiving something naturally shifts one’s mental focus back to the original perception. So we end up with a back-and-forth cycle of evocations whereby X triggers N, which in turn evokes X, which again triggers N, and so forth.

    As it turns out, characterizations of the NCC show precisely this pattern of reverberating back-and-forth communications among different brain regions. Researchers suspect even that when damage to the primary visual cortex presumably interrupts an instance of this kind of reverberation, patients display blindsight. That is, the ability to correctly discriminate moving objects despite the reported inability to see them. This is precisely what one would expect if the reverberation in question were the oscillations between X and N: The objects are consciously perceived—which therefore explains how the patients discriminate them—but the patients do not know they consciously perceive the objects.

    By mistaking meta-consciousness for consciousness, we create two significant problems: First, we fail to distinguish between conscious processes that lack re-representation and truly unconscious processes. After all, both are equally unreportable to self and others. This misleads us to conclude there is a mental unconscious when, in reality, there may always be something it feels like to have each and every mental process in our psyche. Second, we fail to see our partial and tentative explanations for the alleged rise of consciousness may concern merely the rise of metacognition.

    This is liable to create the illusion we are making progress toward solving the “hard problem of consciousness” when, in fact, we are bypassing it altogether: Mechanisms of metacognition are entirely unrelated to the problem of how the qualities of experience could arise from physical arrangements.

    Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it may always be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitive configuration of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead.

    Note: This essay is based on the paper, “There Is an ‘Unconscious,’ but It May Well Be Conscious,” published in Europe’s Journal of Psychology, Vol. 13, No. 3, 559572.


    Source: Scientific American
    = DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR =

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Aragorn For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (21st September 2017), boja (21st September 2017), Cearna (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), enjoy being (21st September 2017), Fred Steeves (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017), modwiz (21st September 2017), Wind (21st September 2017), Woody (21st September 2017)

  3. #2
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    Seems like science could possibly come to that place...it would be nice to see it finally happen.

  4. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), enjoy being (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017), modwiz (21st September 2017)

  5. #3
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    3rd May 2015
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    298
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1,651 Times in 295 Posts
    Seen from my perspective (81 years of age), I have seen much. Sleep is unconsciousness, but still has components of awakenness. After all, what is dreaming? Gregg Braden also does much on Science and Spirituality including Prayer) Hermes Trismegistus (35,000 years ago) (The Kybalion) speaks of the Universe being a mental state, with no REAL
    physical Being. (The Divine Dichotomy). More to come....

  6. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to Gale Frierson For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), enjoy being (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017), modwiz (21st September 2017), Wind (21st September 2017)

  7. #4
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    7th April 2015
    Location
    Patapsco Valley
    Posts
    14,610
    Thanks
    70,673
    Thanked 62,025 Times in 14,520 Posts
    My son's girlfriend is likely going to be studying neurology. She studied microbiology and neuropsychology as an undergrad. I'll share this with her.

    I used to subscribe to Scientific American. Their 50, 100 and 150 years ago articles were always fun.

  8. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), enjoy being (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017), modwiz (21st September 2017)

  9. #5
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,233
    Thanks
    36,744
    Thanked 43,167 Times in 11,949 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Aragorn View Post
    Given that this is an article regarding neuroscience, I could just as easily have parked this thread under Medicine & Health, but as it's about one of the most important aspects of our being, I think Spirituality & Psyche suits it better.





    Consciousness Goes Deeper Than You Think


    Awareness can be part of it, but it’s much more than that






    Source: Scientific American


    An article on the neuroscience of infant consciousness, which attracted some interest a few years ago, asked: “When does your baby become conscious?” The premise, of course, was that babies aren’t born conscious but, instead, develop consciousness at some point. (According to the article, it is about five months of age). Yet, it is hard to think that there is nothing it feels like to be a newborn.

    Newborns clearly seem to experience their own bodies, environment, the presence of their parents, etcetera—albeit in an unreflective, present-oriented manner. And if it always feels like something to be a baby, then babies don’t become conscious. Instead, they are conscious from the get-go.

    The problem is that, somewhat alarmingly, the word “consciousness” is often used in the literature as if it entailed or implied more than just the qualities of experience. Dijksterhuis and Nordgren, for instance, insisted that “it is very important to realize that attention is the key to distinguish between unconscious thought and conscious thought. Conscious thought is thought with attention.” This implies that if a thought escapes attention, then it is unconscious. But is the mere lack of attention enough to assert that a mental process lacks the qualities of experience? Couldn’t a process that escapes the focus of attention still feel like something?

    Consider your breathing right now: the sensation of air flowing through your nostrils, the movements of your diaphragm, etcetera. Were you not experiencing these sensations a moment ago, before I directed your attention to them? Or were you just unaware that you were experiencing them all along? By directing your attention to these sensations, did I make them conscious or did I simply cause you to experience the extra quality of knowing that the sensations were conscious?

    Indeed, Jonathan Schooler has established a clear distinction between conscious and meta-conscious processes. Whereas both types entail the qualities of experience, meta-conscious processes also entail what he called re-representation. “Periodically attention is directed towards explicitly assessing the contents of experience. The resulting meta-consciousness involves an explicit re-representation of consciousness in which one interprets, describes or otherwise characterizes the state of one’s mind.

    So where attention plays an important role is in re-representation; that is, the conscious knowledge of an experience, which underlies introspection. Subjects cannot report—not even to themselves—experiences that aren’t re-represented. Nothing, however, stops conscious experience from occurring without re-representation: Dreams, for instance, have been shown to lack re-representation, despite the undeniable fact they are experienced in consciousness. This gap between reportability and the contents of consciousness has motivated the emergence of so-called “no-report paradigms” in the modern neuroscience of consciousness.

    Clearly, the assumption that consciousness is limited to re-represented mental contents under the focus of attention mistakenly conflates meta-consciousness with consciousness proper. Yet, this conflation is disturbingly widespread. Consider Axel Cleeremans’s words: “Awareness…always seems to minimally entail the ability of knowing that one knows. This ability, after all, forms the basis for the verbal reports we take to be the most direct indication of awareness. And when we observe the absence of such ability to report on the knowledge involved in our decisions, we rightfully conclude the decision was based on unconscious knowledge.”

    Because the study of the Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC) is, by and large, dependent on subjective reports of experience, what passes for the NCC is liable to be merely the neural correlates of meta-consciousness. As such, potentially conscious mental activity—in the sense of activity correlated with experiential qualities—may evade recognition as such.

    As a matter of fact, there is circumstantial but compelling evidence that this is precisely the case. To see it, notice first the conscious knowledge N—that is, the re-representation—of an experience X is triggered by the occurrence of X. For instance, it is the occurrence of a sense perception that triggers the metacognitive realization one is perceiving something. N, in turn, evokes X by directing attention back to it: the realization one is perceiving something naturally shifts one’s mental focus back to the original perception. So we end up with a back-and-forth cycle of evocations whereby X triggers N, which in turn evokes X, which again triggers N, and so forth.

    As it turns out, characterizations of the NCC show precisely this pattern of reverberating back-and-forth communications among different brain regions. Researchers suspect even that when damage to the primary visual cortex presumably interrupts an instance of this kind of reverberation, patients display blindsight. That is, the ability to correctly discriminate moving objects despite the reported inability to see them. This is precisely what one would expect if the reverberation in question were the oscillations between X and N: The objects are consciously perceived—which therefore explains how the patients discriminate them—but the patients do not know they consciously perceive the objects.

    By mistaking meta-consciousness for consciousness, we create two significant problems: First, we fail to distinguish between conscious processes that lack re-representation and truly unconscious processes. After all, both are equally unreportable to self and others. This misleads us to conclude there is a mental unconscious when, in reality, there may always be something it feels like to have each and every mental process in our psyche. Second, we fail to see our partial and tentative explanations for the alleged rise of consciousness may concern merely the rise of metacognition.

    This is liable to create the illusion we are making progress toward solving the “hard problem of consciousness” when, in fact, we are bypassing it altogether: Mechanisms of metacognition are entirely unrelated to the problem of how the qualities of experience could arise from physical arrangements.

    Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it may always be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitive configuration of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead.

    Note: This essay is based on the paper, “There Is an ‘Unconscious,’ but It May Well Be Conscious,” published in Europe’s Journal of Psychology, Vol. 13, No. 3, 559572.


    Source: Scientific American
    Interesting, but it might be that we are headed to a Jungian Copenhagen Interpretation... or not.

    I love that baby picture. Babies are fascinating creatures, plain and simple.
    Last edited by Emil El Zapato, 21st September 2017 at 13:44.

  10. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), enjoy being (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  11. #6
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    I love that baby picture. Babies are fascinating creatures, plain and simple.
    Babies are like...ALL OF US (you and me)...if you disregard time. And then they say: "Time doesn't exist"

  12. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  13. #7
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,233
    Thanks
    36,744
    Thanked 43,167 Times in 11,949 Posts
    yeah, you're probably right...

    I saw a research video some years ago testing baby perception and it was sooo cool! Pre-toddler babies have a very strong notion of what reality is supposed to present. And the testing showed that if it doesn't they become downright distressed. It was sad to see the distress induced but it was quite fascinating in what it demonstrated.

  14. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  15. #8
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    You mean like this??


  16. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  17. #9
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,233
    Thanks
    36,744
    Thanked 43,167 Times in 11,949 Posts
    Gawd, that's mean!

    When my daughter was a toddler she always had a habit of trying to get to containers of hot sauce. Her mom would freak out...everytime. I suggested she let her have her way and to let her decide if it was a good idea or not. She tried it one more time and it was the last time...Until recently...about 15 years later.

    NAP

    Though, it seems some of the babies like it...or are really really hungry...kind of like the 1st guy to eat an oyster...
    Last edited by Emil El Zapato, 21st September 2017 at 15:20.

  18. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017), Wind (21st September 2017)

  19. #10
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post
    Gawd, that's mean!

    When my daughter was a toddler she always had a habit of trying to get to containers of hot sauce. Her mom would freak out...everytime. I suggested she let her have her way and to let her decide if it was a good idea or not. She tried it one more time and it was the last time...Until recently...about 15 years later.

    NAP

    Though, it seems some of the babies like it...or are really really hungry...kind of like the 1st guy to eat an oyster...
    I think you can appreciate this, because of the hot sauce...my sister's eldest son was very interested in matches and how they worked...she would always take them away from him...i.e. hide them etc. until she decided to let him try them out for himself (under supervision). He burnt himself badly...not laughing...but I can tell you that he never ever wanted to fool around with matches ever again. They all survived, hey?

    P.S. We have mostly wooden houses in Norway.

  20. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  21. #11
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
    Join Date
    3rd April 2017
    Location
    Earth I
    Posts
    12,233
    Thanks
    36,744
    Thanked 43,167 Times in 11,949 Posts
    yeah, I can truly appreciate that...burnt fingers never stopped me...however, handling razor blades did...ouch.

    My younger brother nearly burned our house down ... the living room was ablaze and he came into the kitchen asking for a glass of water...I kid you not.

  22. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Emil El Zapato For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  23. #12
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by NotAPretender View Post

    My younger brother nearly burned our house down ... the living room was ablaze and he came into the kitchen asking for a glass of water...I kid you not.
    That made me laugh out loud...really laud!

  24. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017), Kathy (21st September 2017)

  25. #13
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    7th April 2015
    Location
    Patapsco Valley
    Posts
    14,610
    Thanks
    70,673
    Thanked 62,025 Times in 14,520 Posts
    Love the babies eating lemons. My son cringed like most kids do. I knew one child who really liked them. I did too, as a kid, but my Dad would yell at me telling me I was going to ruin my teeth.

    The candy I ate did much more damage than anything else.

  26. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017)

  27. #14
    Retired Member Norway
    Join Date
    2nd July 2015
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    5,065
    Thanks
    73,935
    Thanked 23,318 Times in 5,067 Posts
    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Love the babies eating lemons. My son cringed like most kids do. I knew one child who really liked them. I did too, as a kid, but my Dad would yell at me telling me I was going to ruin my teeth.

    The candy I ate did much more damage than anything else.
    Your dad was right to a certain degree...and you are right 100% with the candy! He should have let you eat the lemon, hey?

  28. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Elen For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dreamtimer (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017)

  29. #15
    Retired Member United States
    Join Date
    7th April 2015
    Location
    Patapsco Valley
    Posts
    14,610
    Thanks
    70,673
    Thanked 62,025 Times in 14,520 Posts
    I have really craggy teeth so I was prone to cavities even with brushing. I really needed to not eat sweets. And I had a terrible sweet tooth! I still have all my teeth, and I have a lot of fillings - not amalgam, though. I replaced all that.

  30. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dreamtimer For This Useful Post:

    Aianawa (22nd September 2017), Aragorn (21st September 2017), Dumpster Diver (1st October 2017), Elen (21st September 2017), Emil El Zapato (21st September 2017)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •