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Thread: Trump's been Russian around

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    (This event was in 2020)



    As the child of refugees of World War II Europe and a renowned philosopher and scholar of propaganda, Jason Stanley has a deep understanding of how democratic societies can be vulnerable to fascism: Nations don’t have to be fascist to suffer from fascist politics. In fact, fascism’s roots have been present in the United States for more than a century.
    Alarmed by the pervasive rise of fascist tactics both at home and around the globe, Stanley focuses here on the structures that unite them, laying out and analyzing the ten pillars of fascist politics—the language and beliefs that separate people into an “us” and a “them.”

    He knits together reflections on history, philosophy, sociology, and critical race theory with stories from contemporary Hungary, Poland, India, Myanmar, and the United States, among other nations.

    He makes clear the immense danger of underestimating the cumulative power of these tactics, which include...

    exploiting a mythic version of a nation’s past;

    propaganda that twists the language of democratic ideals against themselves;

    anti-intellectualism directed against universities and experts;

    law and order politics predicated on the assumption that members of minority groups are criminals;

    and fierce attacks on labor groups and welfare.

    These mechanisms all build on one another, creating and reinforcing divisions and shaping a society vulnerable to the appeals of authoritarian leadership.
    Going down the list, check, check, check, check...oh dear.

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    So as to be on current page.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    At this joint event with Intelligence Squared Germany, Yale historian Timothy Snyder addressed the dangers to democracy from deliberate manipulation of the media and the spread of disinformation by authoritarian governments and their supporters. Snyder talked about the growing threats to democratic systems in Europe and the United States, including Russian interference in the 2016 US elections and manipulation of the media during the invasion of Ukraine. In particular, he discussed how authoritarian leaders use language to delegitimize opposition. And crucially, how citizens can resist.


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  5. #18
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I don't understand the denial. What is the source of resistance? What is the love affair with Russia, Tartaria, and Putin all about? Why do so many folks on both sides have their heads in the sand?

    Recent news on the long-term interference of Russia and Putin has arrived.
    Ah, yet another BOMBSHELL!!! If it's that big, I wonder why not even MSNBC is bothering to cover it? Hmmmmm, that's not like them... The problem lies in people seeing only what they want to see. If one wants to see Vlad Putin hiding behind every tree, then all critical thinking skills will be cast aside when viewing even the stupidest source that confirms old Vlad is hiding behind every tree. Conversely, if one wants to see that Qanon is dead on with everything Trump, they will also cast all critical thinking skills aside, and take to the bank every stupid source that confirms this. It's called confirmation bias.

    So let's look at this a bit deeper, beyond the tantalizing headlines, taking it from the top:


    Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House
    "papers appear to show". That's the magic phrase "appear to show". Just like skin lotions in advertising saying such magic lotion "appears" to take the years off, appearances are vastly different depending on the eye of the beholder, and it's a sneaky, age old and roundabout way of avoiding a false advertising charge. This story from The Guardian is authored by Luke Harding, the same Luke Harding that came out with the following:

    Manafort held secret talks with Assange in Ecuadorian embassy, sources say
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...dorian-embassy

    Well, first off that just wasn't true as we all eventually found out at the time (or should have), that embassy was one of the most surveilled places on this planet, and no photos of this actually happening ever came forth. To add, the bit at the end "sources say", was not even in the originally published article until the claim was challenged. "Sources say" is very similar to "appears". See how this is done? There is no evidence of either of these things happening.

    Luke Harding is also the one who pushed the "Steele Dossier", which we all should know by now was utter bullshit. But take his "appearances" and "sources say" seriously, yet again.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...utins-web-luke

    So back to this:

    Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House
    Vladimir Putin personally authorised a secret spy agency operation to support a “mentally unstable” Donald Trump in the 2016 US presidential election during a closed session of Russia’s national security council, according to what are assessed to be leaked Kremlin documents.

    The key meeting took place on 22 January 2016, the papers suggest, with the Russian president, his spy chiefs and senior ministers all present.

    They agreed a Trump White House would help secure Moscow’s strategic objectives, among them “social turmoil” in the US and a weakening of the American president’s negotiating position.

    Russia’s three spy agencies were ordered to find practical ways to support Trump, in a decree appearing to bear Putin’s signature.
    Now we have "appear to show", "sources say", and "the papers suggest".

    Western intelligence agencies are understood to have been aware of the documents for some months and to have carefully examined them. The papers, seen by the Guardian, seem to represent a serious and highly unusual leak from within the Kremlin.

    The Guardian has shown the documents to independent experts who say they appear to be genuine. Incidental details come across as accurate. The overall tone and thrust is said to be consistent with Kremlin security thinking.
    Add in "are understood to have been aware of", "appear to be genuine", and our grand tally of CIA speak amounts to
    appear to show, sources say, the papers suggest, are understood to have been aware of, independent experts who say they appear to be genuine.
    And just cos, I wonder who these "independent experts" really were, or if they even existed.

    Andrei Soldatov, an expert on Russia’s spy agencies and author of The Red Web, said the leaked material “reflects reality”. “It’s consistent with the procedures of the security services and the security council,” he said. “Decisions are always made like that, with advisers providing information to the president and a chain of command.”

    He added: “The Kremlin micromanages most of these operations. Putin has made it clear to his spies since at least 2015 that nothing can be done independently from him. There is no room for independent action.”
    At least here we have a bit of something to sink our teeth into. Yes, he's a former Russian journalist, and appears , to have some general understanding of of their spying techniques. The proverbial smoking gun though this makes not; unless once again, one desires it to be so.

    But he’ll, if people like Julian Assange must be thrown under the bus for the cause, then so be it…
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 18th July 2021 at 23:21.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

    Socrates

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    Assange has endured an ongoing smear campaign that threatens his life...to this day. The Guardian played a role there.

    From RT

    The newspaper claims that Thordarson's testimony is key for the prosecution's line portraying Assange as a criminal, rather than a journalist publishing material protected by the First Amendment, like the New York Times or other media that shared the same documents as WikiLeaks.

    Reacting to the bombshell article by Stundin, NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden tweeted: "This is the end of the case against Julian Assange." Investigative journalist Glenn Greenwald agreed, saying: "It should be."


    https://www.rt.com/news/527699-assan...-witness-lies/

    The U.S. is already fascist, there's no going there. It's arrived. With Trump you could see it stripped of its veneer, so it made it easier for people to identify it more clearly.

    Like the list though, Dreamtimer. And, to my way of thinking, fascism could become much harder in the future, as some sort of authoritarian control will be imposed due to climate change and ensuing financial chaos. With AI it will be a cake walk. What a cheery person I am!

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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Ah, yet another BOMBSHELL!!! If it's that big, I wonder why not even MSNBC is bothering to cover it? Hmmmmm, that's not like them... The problem lies in people seeing only what they want to see. If one wants to see Vlad Putin hiding behind every tree, then all critical thinking skills will be cast aside when viewing even the stupidest source that confirms old Vlad is hiding behind every tree. Conversely, if one wants to see that Qanon is dead on with everything Trump, they will also cast all critical thinking skills aside, and take to the bank every stupid source that confirms this. It's called confirmation bias.

    So let's look at this a bit deeper, beyond the tantalizing headlines, taking it from the top:




    "papers appear to show". That's the magic phrase "appear to show". Just like skin lotions in advertising saying such magic lotion "appears" to take the years off, appearances are vastly different depending on the eye of the beholder, and it's a sneaky, age old and roundabout way of avoiding a false advertising charge. This story from The Guardian is authored by Luke Harding, the same Luke Harding that came out with the following:
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...dorian-embassy

    Well, first off that just wasn't true as we all eventually found out at the time (or should have), that embassy was one of the most surveilled places on this planet, and no photos of this actually happening ever came forth. To add, the bit at the end "sources say", was not even in the originally published article until the claim was challenged. "Sources say" is very similar to "appears". See how this is done? There is no evidence of either of these things happening.

    Luke Harding is also the one who pushed the "Steele Dossier", which we all should know by now was utter bullshit. But take his "appearances" and "sources say" seriously, yet again.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...utins-web-luke

    So back to this:





    Now we have "appear to show", "sources say", and "the papers suggest".



    Add in "are understood to have been aware of", "appear to be genuine", and our grand tally of CIA speak amounts to And just cos, I wonder who these "independent experts" really were, or if they even existed.



    At least here we have a bit of something to sink our teeth into. Yes, he's a former Russian journalist, and appears , to have some general understanding of of their spying techniques. The proverbial smoking gun though this makes not; unless once again, one desires it to be so.
    Nailed and would add lots more but then i would not be allowed to see this thread or banned , so well done Fred.

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    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    Ah, yet another BOMBSHELL!!! If it's that big, I wonder why not even MSNBC is bothering to cover it? Hmmmmm, that's not like them... The problem lies in people seeing only what they want to see. If one wants to see Vlad Putin hiding behind every tree, then all critical thinking skills will be cast aside when viewing even the stupidest source that confirms old Vlad is hiding behind every tree. Conversely, if one wants to see that Qanon is dead on with everything Trump, they will also cast all critical thinking skills aside, and take to the bank every stupid source that confirms this. It's called confirmation bias.

    So let's look at this a bit deeper, beyond the tantalizing headlines, taking it from the top:




    "papers appear to show". That's the magic phrase "appear to show". Just like skin lotions in advertising saying such magic lotion "appears" to take the years off, appearances are vastly different depending on the eye of the beholder, and it's a sneaky, age old and roundabout way of avoiding a false advertising charge. This story from The Guardian is authored by Luke Harding, the same Luke Harding that came out with the following:
    [SIZE=3][FONT=Arial Black]

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...dorian-embassy

    Well, first off that just wasn't true as we all eventually found out at the time (or should have), that embassy was one of the most surveilled places on this planet, and no photos of this actually happening ever came forth. To add, the bit at the end "sources say", was not even in the originally published article until the claim was challenged. "Sources say" is very similar to "appears". See how this is done? There is no evidence of either of these things happening.

    Luke Harding is also the one who pushed the "Steele Dossier", which we all should know by now was utter bullshit. But take his "appearances" and "sources say" seriously, yet again.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...utins-web-luke

    So back to this:





    Now we have "appear to show", "sources say", and "the papers suggest".



    Add in "are understood to have been aware of", "appear to be genuine", and our grand tally of CIA speak amounts to And just cos, I wonder who these "independent experts" really were, or if they even existed.



    At least here we have a bit of something to sink our teeth into. Yes, he's a former Russian journalist, and appears , to have some general understanding of of their spying techniques. The proverbial smoking gun though this makes not; unless once again, one desires it to be so.

    But he’ll, if people like Julian Assange must be thrown under the bus for the cause, then so be it…
    I saw Pakman? talking about it ... my 1st thought was that Pakman is going the way of all internet media ... Everyone wants the middle ring at Barnum & Bailey. If legitimate media corroborates then the possibility goes higher. We gotta get and be real.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    Is there a problem with the Guardian ... just the names sounds suspicious to me ... it always has.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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    There was beaucoup information garnered by our intelligence agencies regarding Russian interference.

    Trump chose Putin over the US intelligence services on the world stage. Trump disbanded the investigation of Russia.

    Hey, if I was a criminal and I could disband the investigative teams and dismiss the judge and jury, I'd get away with it too. And I'd get out a big bullhorn making the claim of no evidence.

    I thought folks would be outraged at destruction of evidence. Is it only when someone named Clinton or Biden does it? Sure seems that way.



    If this piece from the Guardian was all there is...

    No need to finish that sentence. It's ridiculous on its face.

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    Some folks like to be 'outraged' at the use of the word treason.

    Here's a take:

    [Trump's] role in the insurrection is in fact treason by the book: ‘levying’ war against the US, in 18th century language meant ‘raising up an army.’ That he did. No question about it.

    Malcolm Nance (USN ret., NSA ret.) says the likely trajectory for Trump is: First they get him on the tax charges and asset-strip him & his offspring. Then (when he’s been suitably weakened) come the big charges related to the insurrection.
    Per DOJ filings, the insurrection is ‘the most complex investigation in US history.’ Note the singular ‘the’ and ‘investigation.’ Not a bunch of disconnected cases, but ultimately one big case: and at the top of that case is Trump, also Flynn and a handful of others.

    In the estimate of some folks in the IC (intelligence community), Flynn is an enormous nexus of danger himself.

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    To people who say that Trump and others working with Russia aren’t technically ‘traitors’, yes, they are. They are levying war against the government and the people. Just because it’s cyberwar doesn’t mean it’s any less of an attack. Just like the Founders couldn’t have foreseen machineguns and other modern implements of war, neither could they have foreseen cyberwar. Saying that the ‘original intent’ doesn’t include anything except guns, is small minded. Anyone participating in it is in fact, ‘levying war’ against their own people.
    John Bolton was going around last year on his book tour. I listened while he said that there were grave national security concerns with Trump.
    Grave National Security Concerns. And then he said that if the Democrats had been nicer, they might have helped with impeachment.
    If the Democrats had been nicer.

    So our national security rests on the hurt fee-fees of Republicans. What an effing shit show.


    The term...is cybersocial warfare, as distinct from cyberkinetic warfare. The former is an attack on society & culture, the latter is an attack that has effects comparable to those of conventional kinetic warfare. Then there’s cyberWMD, using networked systems to produce effects similar to those of an atomic, biological, chemical, or radiological attack.

    Now we are also seeing the hybrid variants such as cybersocial warfare used to spread disease (antivax, COVID), having an effect comparable to biological warfare.

    Bottom line is, Russia is at war against the United States, and we have got to make it crystal clear that if this continues, we will use ‘every possible means’ to deter and defeat it.
    Right now cyber is in a kind of gray zone. A cyberattack on certain types of infrastructure targets could unleash effects comparable to those of a large attack with conventional, chemical, or radiological weapons. To my mind that qualifies as an act of war by any definition.
    We should have [helped form a democracy] when we brought down the evil Soviet empire, but everyone believed in another piece of magic, that removing a dictatorship would magically produce a democracy. Oopsie.

    So now we have ‘this thing’ on our hands, and we need to figure out how to make it go away.

    There are plenty of smart minds working on that issue right now.

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    Speaking of smart minds, there are many who have cast doubt on the Guardian report. Among them, Thomas Rid, Matt Tait, and Craig Unger.

    Marcy Wheeler examines the story here.

    But experts are raising some cautions. Thomas Rid raises cautions here (not all of which I agree with). Matt Tait raises more cautions here (not all of which I agree with). Craig Unger quotes more experts raising questions about the document.
    If Putin didn’t approve the 2016 operation until January 22, Russia and Trump might claim, this effort wasn’t really an attempt to offer Trump financial salvation in exchange for policy considerations and other quid pro quo that became part of the operation, but instead was a viable (albeit ridiculously lucrative) real estate offer. Indeed, if Russia wanted to bail Trump out of the financial difficulties created by the prosecution of Trump Organization now, they might want to launder this earlier real estate dangle so as to dissociate it with any attempt to buy a president, or else any deals from this point forward might be deemed a continuation of an earlier conspiracy or even an effort to keep Trump afloat long enough to run again in 2024.
    Marcy examines the roles of Russian Oligarchs in all of this.

    And she points out that any Kompromat which would have actual power over Trump would be financial, not sexual.

    She says at the end,

    Sure, it’s possible that these documents that magically appear are authentic. It’s also possible that Russia has reasons they want to tell a new story about the timing and key players in the known 2016 operation. Why they would want to do that may be the most interesting aspect of this story.

    My next step will be looking into the analyses of the aforementioned doubters.

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    Meanwhile...

    There’s the famous photo of Flynn in Moscow at a dinner table with Putin for a big ‘gala’ occasion, 10 years of Russia TV. You can bet...that he had some ‘private time’ with Putin and within five years that will come out...
    Then there’s the...story a few years back about Kushner visiting the Russian embassy to ask about using ‘Russian diplomatic means of communication.’ Any NSA alumnus will testify in court as an expert witness, that Kushner’s request means only one thing: that he was seeking to use Russian NSA-proof crypto (yes it exists), which is effective proof that he was seeking to commit espionage.
    Flynn practically has a bunch of RWE groups organized as his private army...Lo and behold, who was up there at the Capitol using military small-unit tactics to bust into the building?

    Connect the dots and 06 January was in part a Russia-inspired op.
    But renewed focus on 2016 will distract from the investigations of 06 January.
    Who could have planted the Russia document, or why, remains to be seen. But one decent going hypothesis is that it was done to try to put limits on the timeline and extent of Russian interference.

    Either way, Russia's fecking with us. And folks in power are enabling it.

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    More meanwhile,

    There is one aspect of Trump that is 100% predictable.

    Recall his diagnosis as a malignant narcissist.

    Narcissists are emotional blackholes with constant high demand for praise & adulation.

    Feed them a dollop of praise and they do what you tell them to do. Repeat, repeat, and all the way down the trail they go.

    That dynamic is as deterministic as a ballistic trajectory.

    Very very predictable.

    QED the obvious roadmap as to how to manipulate Trump and make him do what Putin et.al. want him to do.
    Another obvious conclusion, in part from inference from this article, and in part from others: Russia didn’t stop then, and didn’t stop when Trump lost in 2020. Russia is still in the mix, right now, and will be until they are stopped cold. They have a hard asset in Trump, and they will continue to exploit him and everything about him until he is no longer useful as a tool of division and destabilization.

    Gee...

    Why did Trump have meetings with Putin without no translators and no transcripts? Why did a bunch of Republicans go to Russia to meet with Putin and others?

    What in the world could they have been doing and why? Why don't they want to talk about it?

    The following republicans went to Russia July 4, 2018 to meet with Putin: Richard C. Shelby (Ala), Steve Daines (Mont), John Hoevin (ND), John Neely Kennedy (LA), Jerry Moran (Kan), John Thune (SD), Ron Johnson (Wisconson), Kay Granger (Tx). Also Devin Nunes’s staff were reported meeting with Russians. Also meeting with the President of the US without anyone taking notes was a clear dumbing down of US national security. Putin got a lot out of the trump White House and the republicans. Clearly not something he could obtain from Democrats. I suspect we do not know of all that was given to Putin and will continue to be given to Putin by the republicans.
    Perhaps back doors were left open in important U.S. Government systems. Remember the “Great Russian Hack” of 2020, we never really heard much more about that but it involved several key national departments and agencies. I read somewhere that Russian malware is lurking in about 40 percent of U.S. utilities and infrastructure. Perhaps the East Coast pipeline hack was just a little message being sent.

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    Long story short, one of the biggest lies of the Trump era was that there was “no collusion.” Anyone who read the Mueller report knows there was, and we continue to get more details indicating that was the case.










    I know folks are good at dot-connecting when they give it a good effort.

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