Ole Dammegard and Jim Fetzer Regarding the Holocaust

[Dreamtimer]

After a second read, I have to say that Aragorn's response is not a diatribe. There is no bitterness, no abusiveness, no attack. Diatribe implies unhinged or ill-informed which is not what is demonstrated here.

A very thorough explanation is something to be expected from him. Usually you'll find him doing it with subjects revolving around physics and computers.

It's a boon to have an environment such as this in which to discuss such difficult topics in adult ways.

[WantDisclosure]

After a second read, I have to say that Aragorn's response is not a diatribe. There is no bitterness, no abusiveness, no attack. Diatribe implies unhinged or ill-informed which is not what is demonstrated here.

A very thorough explanation is something to be expected from him. Usually you'll find him doing it with subjects revolving around physics and computers.

It's a boon to have an environment such as this in which to discuss such difficult topics in adult ways.

I disagree.

But I am in no position to do so, if you know what I mean.

[Novusod]

Do we really need to have this debate? I think Aragorn's judgement on the issue is fair.

***

On a slightly separate topic the term "holocaust denial" however was created by propagandists similar to how the CIA coined the term "Conspiracy theorist" to label anyone who questioned official narratives. It is too easy to label someone a conspiracy theorist or holocaust denier as a dismissive then it is to fully debate the subject matter. These are debate enders not conversation starters. That is the point of the label existing.

[Dreamtimer]

Of course you are, Keep Trying. You just did.



I get labelled 'liberal' regularly, whether or not people actually know what I believe or how I live. It used to be a neutral term, however it is no longer. I wouldn't dream of demanding people stop using it, that would be a waste of energy. It's unfortunate. The real question is, "What actions will people take, assuming I'm a liberal and all the baggage that now comes along with that?" Heck, the name Hillary is a trigger word now.


As for this subject, do we have to come up with a more PC term? Who decides?

[Dumpster Diver]

As an American born of a German mother who lived during the war and who (my mother) was subject to some pretty nasty controlling behaviors from the Nazi party and having lived amongst Netherlanders (Dutch to some) who lived thru the Nazi caused famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944–45) and who gave me their personal testimony to this period, I can vouch for Nazis as Monsters.

Aragorn lives in Belgium. He knows people who lived with the Nazis as they had overrun the low countries (Netherlands, Belgium, etc). Americans living here in the US have not gone face-to-face with these facts since WW II was NOT visited here. Your country was not overrun and ruled harshly by the "Thousand Year Reich."

BTW, if you Nazi revisionists are true seekers, why not visit Europe and seek out some of these folks and get their personal testimony? Many are still alive.

[Elen]

As an American born of a German mother who lived during the war and who (my mother) was subject to some pretty nasty controlling behaviors from the Nazi party and having lived amongst Netherlanders (Dutch to some) who lived thru the Nazi caused famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_famine_of_1944–45) and who gave me their personal testimony to this period, I can vouch for Nazis as Monsters.

Aragorn lives in Belgium. He knows people who lived with the Nazis as they had overrun the low countries (Netherlands, Belgium, etc). Americans living here in the US have not gone face-to-face with these facts since WW II was NOT visited here. Your country was not overrun and ruled harshly by the "Thousand Year Reich."

BTW, if you Nazi revisionists are true seekers, why not visit Europe and seek out some of these folks and get their personal testimony? Many are still alive.

DD you keep on surprising me...that was very clear-sighted to me!

[WantDisclosure]

The title of this thread should be changed to "Ole Dammegard and Jim Fetzer Regarding the Holocaust."

[Aragorn]

The title of this thread should be changed to "Ole Dammegard and Jim Fetzer Regarding the Holocaust."

I've taken care of it, but please be advised that any such requests would better be served if you were to express them by way of a private message to one of the staff members or by way of a report, because not everyone on the staff monitors every single thread on the forum, and as such, a request like that could easily be missed.

[Dumpster Diver]

DD you keep on surprising me...that was very clear-sighted to me!

Thanks. I have moments between bipolar episodes...

My base-line axioms are personal experience. Everything in my belief system is derived from them. New information, no matter how well documented, must comply with the axioms or are set at low probability, i.e. inverse to the axiom high probability.

...now back to our regularly scheduled bomb throwing

[WantDisclosure]

I would like to say to lurkers worldwide: At least, on this forum, I was not banned for posting this thread, which is what happened to me on "Above Top Secret."

[tarka the duck]

Professor Gregory Stanton of GenocideWatch describes the 8 steps of genocide denial:

The Cost of Denial

In my studies of genocide, I have discovered that the process of every genocide has predictable stages.
They aren’t linear, because they usually operate simultaneously. But there is a logical order to them,
because a “later” stage cannot occur without a logically “prior” stage.

The first is Classification, when we classify the world into ‘us’ versus ‘them’.

The second is Symbolization, when we give names to those classifications like Jew and Aryan,
Hutu and Tutsi, Turk and Armenian. Sometimes the symbols are physical, like the Nazi yellow star.

The third is Dehumanization, when perpetrators call their victims rats, or cockroaches, cancer, or disease;
so eliminating them is actually seen as “cleansing” the society, rather than murder.

The fourth is Organization, when hate groups, armies, and militias organize.

The fifth is Polarization, when moderates are targeted who could stop the process, especially
moderates from the perpetrators’ group.

The sixth stage is Preparation, when the perpetrators are trained and armed, victims are identified,
transported and concentrated.

The seventh stage is Extermination, what we legally define as genocide, the intentional destruction,
in whole or in part, of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

When I first outlined these stages in a memo I wrote in the State Department in 1996, I thought these seven stages are all there are.

Then I realized there is an eighth stage in every genocide: Denial.
It is actually a continuation of the genocide, because it is a continuing attempt to destroy the victim group
psychologically and culturally, to deny its members even the memory of the murders of their relatives.

Denial has a profoundly negative impact on everyone concerned.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutus...tofdenial.html




@Keep Trying: you’re obviously a true believer in the Holocaust denial movement. I hope you have the time to respond to these questions:

1) Do you believe that the Nazis deliberately attempted to exterminate any groups of people at all,
based on ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, or sexual orientation? If so, which?

2) Do you deny any other genocides or crimes against humanity? Rwanda, perhaps? The Cambodia genocide?
The Armenian Holocaust? What about the massacres in Sudan? The Great Leap Forward?
And if you don’t, why not?

3) Do you subscribe to the fundamental belief system of the founders of the Holocaust denial movement?

4) If approximately 6 million Jews and millions of non-Jews were not killed, where did they all go?

5) If the Holocaust didn’t happen, why do you think Germany took responsibility for the actions of the Nazis,
and attempted to remedy the harm through admission, acceptance, commemoration, reparation etc?
Especially as, historically, perpetrators of genocide are known to celebrate their attempts at extermination
rather than apologising.

6) You believe we have been lied to by the mainstream: what makes you so certain you’re not also being lied to
by the Holocaust deniers you espouse?



I look forward to hearing your views.

[tarka the duck]

I'm amazed that those who repeatedly complain that their freedom of speech is being curtailed
by laws against genocide denial - even though their own country doesn't have such laws - seem
unwilling to discuss and engage here on the very topic they say is being suppressed

I can't help but wonder whether it's a case of promoting an agenda rather than valuing the truth.

[WantDisclosure]

I'm amazed that those who repeatedly complain that their freedom of speech is being curtailed
by laws against genocide denial - even though their own country doesn't have such laws - seem
unwilling to discuss and engage here on the very topic they say is being suppressed

I can't help but wonder whether it's a case of promoting an agenda rather than valuing the truth.

I have posted this thread because I think the topic is extremely important for the awakening of humankind regarding how we have been programmed, to our own detriment.

However, I do not have the ability to change the minds of those who disagree with the subject matter.

The thread is here for the world to read as well as the members.

That makes it worthwhile in my mind.

I am happy to discuss the subject matter, but not to debate it.

You reject Ole Dammegard's and Jim Fetzer's work on this. That's your choice and I can't change it.

[tarka the duck]

I have posted this thread because I think the topic is extremely important for the awakening of humankind regarding how we have been programmed, to our own detriment.

I couldn’t agree more. And so I refer you to the question I asked in my previous post (26) addressed to you
(incidentally, I hope you’ll find the time to respond to the other questions as I’d be very interested in your
answers):

"You believe we have been lied to by the mainstream: what makes you so certain you’re not also being lied to
by the Holocaust deniers you espouse?"

Upon what do you base your apparent confidence that you are ’awake’ regarding this topic?

However, I do not have the ability to change the minds of those who disagree with the subject matter.

But surely one of the hallmarks of critical thinking is that, upon presentation of evidence that contradicts one’s current
viewpoint, one changes one’s mind. To do otherwise is to be closed minded. How else do we learn?

The ability to change our mind - to admit implicitly or explicitly that we were wrong - is a vital part
of being a courageous human being. When we’re provided with ample evidence, we should be prepared
to change our mind - it’s a wonderful feeling, to discover a better way of thinking! It’s exhilarating!

We need to use reason. We need to be able to suspend our beliefs to listen to and investigate information offered to us by others -
including those who offer the opposite viewpoint. But to do that, we have to be able to differentiate between facts and opinions:
if we don’t, our feelings will make us reluctant to step into uncomfortable territory, and so we’ll only look for facts that back up our opinions,
which were formed from bias and bigotry - and we become increasingly upset as cognitive dissonance kicks in because our attachment
to our world view is threatened by evidence contradicting our position.

The thread is here for the world to read as well as the members.

Which is precisely why I consider it important to contribute.

Of course, the true believers won’t read what I write because it contradicts their underlying agenda.

But one can at least attempt to combat one of the tactics used by Holocaust deniers - that of trying to plant
seeds of doubt and confusion in the heads of genuine seekers of the truth who are asking questions,
messing with their heads until they inadvertently become indistinguishable from the hard core haters.

You reject Ole Dammegard's and Jim Fetzer's work on this. That's your choice and I can't change it.

Oh, but you could - if you could provide me with carefully evaluated sources offering data, facts, observable phenomena and research findings.
If you could present coherent reasons as to why you adopted your belief system, and show my reasoning to be faulty,
then I would be forced to change my mind. And I’d be genuinely happy about that

I am happy to discuss the subject matter, but not to debate it.

That’s great. What aspect of this topic shall we discuss first?

[Aianawa]

Still so little on those who created, organised this suffering prior, during and after, both ww1 and two.