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Thread: "If humble people make the best leaders, why do we fall for charismatic narcissists?"

  1. #31
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    Here's some stuff about being conned and how difficult it is to both come back to reality and/or attempt to help someone else.


    CULTS & CON ARTISTS GET US TO DO ALMOST ANYTHING AND THANK THEM FOR IT

    David Maurer in his classic 1940 book The Big Con says:

    “A mark, once hooked, is often most difficult to ‘unhook.’ If operators once get his confidence completely, he is so sure of the deal in which he is involved that he will not listen to reasonable advice even if it is given to him.”
    Some examples Maurer gives:

    “C.H. Hubbell of McPherson, Kansas who was tied up with the Christ Kid when the officers arrested the Kid. He was being played for $50,000 and was most indignant at the interruption. Even when he learned that he was being played on the rag, he refused to believe it and insisted on posting bond for both the Christ Kid and his insiderman”

    Why does this happen? Ego! Ego! Ego! Marks convince themselves that they are right and they can’t fathom the idea that they are wrong. Cons prey upon the things we really want to believe are true.
    Steven Hassan in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control says that cults ask for your life savings for 2 reasons:

    1. To get your money

    2. To leave the cult, you first need to come to grip with the painful realization that you just gave away all your money.

    It is easier for the human mind to make up excuses than confront painful reality. It’s easier to deny climate change if you get all your money from oil. It’s easier to think of yourself as a “job creator” when asking for tax cuts.

    Maurer writing from 1940 tells us a lot about those in charge today:

    “Most marks come from the upper strata of society, which, in America, means they have made, married or inherited money. Because of this, they acquire status which in time they come to attribute to some inherent superiority, especially as regards matters of sound judgement in finance and investment. Friends and associates themselves social climbers and sycophants, help to maintain this illusion of superiority.”
    We choose to believe stories we like, whether it is the story that we are “honest”, “smart” or that people live on the moon. Maria Konnikova in The Confidence Game notes the story of the Moon Hoax of 1835 that was printed in the latest technology of the times: Newspapers.
    HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONNED? IF SO, YOU LIKELY WILL NEVER KNOW

    There is only so much you can do because Konnikova notes that con artists play on who you are.

    “What are you confident in? The con artist will find those things where your belief is unshakable and will build on that foundation to subtly change the world around you. But you will be so confident in the starting point that you won’t even notice what’s happened”
    TECHNOLOGY GIVES CON ARTISTS SUPER POWERS

    Konnikova writes that these same con men have a new modern friend: technology. She quotes a con artist who says:

    “What I did fifty years ago as a teenage boy is four thousand times easier to do today because of technology. Technology breeds crime. It always has and always will”
    Steven Hassan in his book Combatting Cult Mind Control says

    “Mind-control organizations routinely sponsor websites that purport to provide help, empathy....Because vast amounts of personal information are now available online, cult recruiters (as well as ordinary scam artists) can now go online and develop extensive profiles about future targets”
    CAN’T WE JUST USE FACTS? NO

    That’s not how people work. We don’t care about information — at least at first. We like people and stories we trust most of all.
    TOOLS TO USE

    1. ARGUING — EVEN WITH GOOD FACTS — MAKES THINGS WORSE. DON’T DO IT.

    Hassan notes that cultists have been preparing for you and your facts. When you come at them with facts, this is the fight they have been preparing for. They have their own facts. They want to battle you on twitter or wherever.
    2. REALIZE YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE THE MORE POWERFUL ANIMAL MIND

    Daniel Kaheman in Thinking Fast and Slow makes an important distinction between (1) our animal mind which is fast, instinctive and emotional and (2) our rational mind which is slow and logical. Turns out that a vast majority of our behaviors happen because of the first mental system. Focus on changing that first.
    3. ESTABLISH RAPPORT

    How do we avoid the animal mind going into fight or flight? How can we talk to the rational mind? Loving connection is the key but I need more specifics than that because I’m not so good at those things.

    Turns out the new breed of FBI negotiators have learned a few touchy feely things.

    Former FBI negotiator Chris Voss in his book Never Split the Difference says that the FBI needed a new playbook beyond rational arguments because “have you ever tried to devise a mutually beneficial win-win solution with a guy who thinks he’s the messiah?” Answer: you can’t

    The FBI developed tools to “calm people down, establish rapport, gain trust, elicit the verbalization of needs and persuade the other guy of our empathy.” All of these are crucial and it starts by establishing rapport with these tools.

    Konnikova says that any good con artist knows that a con “requires the creation of empathy and rapport...an emotional foundation must be laid before any scheme is proposed, any game set in motion. Only then does it move to logic and persuasion”

    Hassan lists building rapport with cult members as the #1 key to unlocking mind control.
    A. MIRROR TO ESTBALISH TRUST

    Voss says “We fear what is different and are drawn to what is similar”

    Dale Carnegie and Tony Robbins self-help gurus agree and have a lot to say about mirroring.

    Who else does? Con artists! They see this as essential step.

    FBI agent Voss and cult deprogrammer Hassan both list “mirroring” as the place to start building rapport. Things you can do to mirror

    1. Similar clothing or appearance

    2 . Imitate posture and other physical ways of being . Match a weak handshake with a weak handshake. Lean forward when they lean forward.

    3. Listen and repeat the last 3 words (or the critical one to three words) of what someone just said.

    I understand that these can seem manipulative and in the hands of con artists, they are but we can try to use these in authentic ways. For example, listening and repeating the last few words is also a nice way to actually listen to them. Which bring us to:
    B. LISTEN TO THEM BEFORE THEY CAN LISTEN TO YOU. GET THEM TO SAY “THAT’S RIGHT”

    Voss: “When individuals feel listened to, they tend to listen to themselves more carefully and to openly evaluate and clarify their own thoughts and feelings. In addition, they become less defensive and oppositional and more willing to other points of view”

    Voss has a simple system, first label any objections using non-confrontational language:

    “It seems like you are very angry”
    ASK “HOW” AND “WHAT” QUESTIONS TO GET THEM TO ARTICULATE THEIR THINKING

    The bad news is that there is no way that I know of to tell people what to think that works in the long term. Instead what you are trying to do is develop their sense of critical reasoning. Victory can simply be planting the seeds of doubt.

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  3. #32
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    Here's a video about the psychology of self-deception.

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  5. #33
    Senior Member Emil El Zapato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Here's some stuff about being conned and how difficult it is to both come back to reality and/or attempt to help someone else.


    CULTS & CON ARTISTS GET US TO DO ALMOST ANYTHING AND THANK THEM FOR IT









    HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONNED? IF SO, YOU LIKELY WILL NEVER KNOW



    TECHNOLOGY GIVES CON ARTISTS SUPER POWERS





    CAN’T WE JUST USE FACTS? NO



    TOOLS TO USE

    1. ARGUING — EVEN WITH GOOD FACTS — MAKES THINGS WORSE. DON’T DO IT.



    2. REALIZE YOU ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE THE MORE POWERFUL ANIMAL MIND



    3. ESTABLISH RAPPORT






    A. MIRROR TO ESTBALISH TRUST



    B. LISTEN TO THEM BEFORE THEY CAN LISTEN TO YOU. GET THEM TO SAY “THAT’S RIGHT”



    ASK “HOW” AND “WHAT” QUESTIONS TO GET THEM TO ARTICULATE THEIR THINKING
    psychoanalysis 101...just about any 'con' will walk circles around those techniques. Two possible solutions to problems like this. Disengage or murder. I faced this conundrum daily with my ex.
    “El revolucionario: te meteré la bota en el culo"

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  7. #34
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    There seem to be a lot of people who don't know psych 101 and are letting themselves be led around by the nose.

    There are those who have come back from the edge, and so if these tools help bring a few more back, good thing.

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