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Thread: Grace Under Pressure

  1. #1
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Grace Under Pressure

    Over the course of the last couple of years, I've become quite the connoisseur of citizen/police videoed interactions. Knowledge is certainly power, but so is one's conduct in exercising their Constitutional Rights here in the U.S. I would gladly buy this guy a beer for the way he handles himself in an obviously very stressful (and IMO unreasonable) situation. Of the thousands of these clips that I've watched and studied so far, this one is easily top 10.

    You can make the police back off and stand down (if you're doing nothing wrong that is), but you had better know your shit and you had better do it right. Cop logic can be quite frustrating.

    I enjoyed this clip tremendously, if you have 20 minutes to spare I think you will as well. He does everything right, and he does it politely demonstrating grace under pressure.

    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 8th January 2017 at 19:13.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Have you seen many over-the-top reactions resulting in people getting hurt?

    My understanding is that there are many difficulties associated with police handling people with mental health or disability issues. Their training doesn't go much into these populations. And then there are the racism/sexism issues.

    My husband works with adults with intellectual (developmental) disabilities.

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Have you seen many over-the-top reactions resulting in people getting hurt?
    Generally speaking, no. But then with the kind I usually watch that aspect wouldn't really enter the picture.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    My understanding is that there are many difficulties associated with police handling people with mental health or disability issues. Their training doesn't go much into these populations.
    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    My husband works with adults with intellectual (developmental) disabilities.
    I have a close relative who did that for a time, incredibly challenging (but rewarding) work. It takes a special breed to do that, as I'm sure you're very aware.

    I would guess their training on this type of situation in virtually zero. Of course there are always exceptions to the rules, and I've seen some cops go the extra mile like that, but it's very apparent the major focus of their training is in the use of overwhelming force for pretty much every situation.

    A prime example would be the shooting of a mentally unbalanced homeless guy named James Boyd, executed for the crime of sleeping out in the desert. This is as close to cold blooded murder as most of us will ever see.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwytoxMuk4U


    The main reason I started watching these though was for the front row seat education, check point refusals being one category.

    •In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority in the course of individual stops, resulting in violations of the constitutional rights of innocent people. These problems are compounded by inadequate training for Border Patrol agents, a lack of oversight by CBP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the consistent failure of CBP to hold agents accountable for abuse. Thus, although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution free," the U.S. government frequently acts like it is.
    https://www.aclu.org/other/constitut...le-border-zone

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTG1EHw1XZw


    There is also an exploding category referred to as "audits" or "tests", meaning people literally go out to test government officials on how well (or not so well) they strive to uphold and defend Constitutional rights for the people they serve. Lost in the shuffle has been that police have all but forgotten they are public *servants*, and the public with a camera is actually doing a lot to serve as sometimes embarrassing reminders.

    There are many ways this is done: Go out and film (always from a public space!) courthouses, police stations, military installations, prisons, traffic stops, Federal Reserve, defense corporations, etc. Filming in public is a First Amendment right, and this is a classic example of a First Amendment Audit:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWWDhjFGi8


    Second Amendment audits are more edgy, that's where you CAN wind up getting yourself shot with a wrong move:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEai9g688Sw


    I won't bore you with any more videos, but upon initial contact these basic audits generally delve into other Amendments, namely the 4th and 5th. Not giving permission (which is often needed!) for search and/or seizure, and choosing to remain silent as to not risk incriminating one's self.

    Like I said it's been quite the ride education wise. Before launching into this two years ago I would have spilled my guts to any cop for any reason, given permission to search whatever, pretty much whatever they wanted. Not any more, now we'll do it by the book. As always, knowledge is power.

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    Member on Sabbatical Morocco modwiz's Avatar
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    Great videos, Fred. Thanks.
    "To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" -- Voltaire

    "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."-- Eleanor Roosevelt

    "Misery loves company. Wisdom has to look for it." -- Anonymous

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I've heard some horror stories. One woman went through hell at the hands of Border Patrol and has suffered long-term physical and mental issues as a result. Another one was a man who cooperated in every way with police to help find who murdered his wife and they were just working him to get something to nail him with. He spent decades in jail while the actual muderer went free.

    In Arizona they can't do alcohol checkpoints so they do 'drivers license checks'.

    Is the 100 mile from the border 'no constitutional rights zone' still in effect? It's a big Patriot Act loophole that gave officials more power and us no rights.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by modwiz View Post
    Great videos, Fred. Thanks.
    Thanks Rad, much appreciated.

    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    Another one was a man who cooperated in every way with police to help find who murdered his wife and they were just working him to get something to nail him with. He spent decades in jail while the actual muderer went free.
    Whew, that's a toughy. Like most people, he probably never suspected that the police would ever lie, or be deceptive towards him. Truth is they can *legally* say whatever the hell they want to get someone to incriminate themselves. This was huge misunderstanding I had (also probably like most people) with the 5th Amendment, and it's right to remain silent.

    Like most people I always assumed it was basically *just* for the guilty, so they couldn't be forced to testify against themselves. Like IRS head Lois Lerner taking the 5th before Congress, great example. But it's also for being questioned by the police, because they will not only take anything we say and use it against us, with glee, to help get the conviction, they will twist our words around until the report states nothing of the kind of what we actually said.

    It's like Orwell's famous 2=2=5, also know as "cop logic". Under questioning I can tell them I am simply out for an evening walk around the neighborhood, and next thing I know the report states I was admittedly "prowling" the neighborhood. The can, and will do shit like that. I'll bet that's similar to what happened to the guy in your example.

    At least if the person says "I don't answer questions", it makes it awfully tough to take 2+2 and make it =5.

    As a disclaimer it may well sound like I'm a cop hater or something, but that's far from the truth. I have all the respect in the world for the tough dangerous job they do, and if I need one it's nice to know assistance is only a 911 away. But, like fire, they can also be a dangerous servant. Especially post 911, boy was that a game changer in this respect as well. Everybody is now a potential terrorist...

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    David Wharton (News Now Houston) has become one of my favorites at this film the police thing. He first hit the scene maybe a year or so ago, and I've watched him get better and better along the way both in his knowledge of basic Constitutional law, and how to deal with people in tense situations. A valuable life skill for any endeavor, but especially so when dealing with people who can lock you up in a cage with any missteps.

    In this latest video David masterfully demonstrates the power of knowledge, making Grace Under Pressure look like child's play. It's obvious he thoroughly enjoyed this encounter, as did I, and I think you will too.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYYDgeu25QI


    For clarity's sake, these guys don't do this for kicks. They do it as a teaching tool (for both police and the general public) that photography is not a crime, even in these days of heightened terrorism paranoia. David was arrested 3 times last year, and detained 27 times. At no point did he ever break the law...

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    Senior Member sandy's Avatar
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    hahahhahahaaa it is always about power and control IMO
    Last edited by sandy, 18th February 2017 at 06:17.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    As is evidenced by this old thread, I've been watching people conducting "First Amendment Audits" for about 4 years now. As part of freedom of speech, is also freedom of the press, and freedom to film ANYTHING from a public space. As the Supreme Court has ruled: "The eyes cannot trespass". So that's what these people do is go out and test this right. Partly for our education, partly to publicly expose bad cops, and partly to educate, publicly praise the good ones, and educate the many average cop who surprisingly are ignorant of this aspect of the 1ST Amendment. Officer Miller here is a classic case of an arrogant, bully cop, whose inflated ego is used to getting it's own way behind that badge and gun.

    There is also the "2ND Amendment Audit", where they test the right to bear arms by legally carrying open firearms out in public. In both cases you had BETTER know your shit first, and how to properly conduct yourself with grace under pressure, but in the former case the worst that can happen is that you can be illegally detained and/or arrested, in the latter case you can wind up getting yourself shot with one stupid move.

    Also, just so anyone reading this is aware of exactly what they are viewing here, another critical part of these audits is knowledge of when you LEGALLY need to I.D. (identify) yourself. This guy of course (as do I by now) knows full well what the actual law is on that.

    So anyway, I came across a very rare case here by a very experienced 1ST Amendment auditor, where other cops actually stepped in and stopped one of their own from blatantly violating someone's rights. In the vast majority of instances the thin blue line brotherhood, being bad cops as well, or simply being spineless for fear of repercussions, prevents them from doing the right thing. Turns out these guys watch these videos.

    It's important to point out the bad cops, but it's also important to point out the good ones as well. In smoothly de-escalating this very tense and needless situation, these two are shining examples of what a good cop, a public servant, should be like. Hats off to them!
    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 30th September 2018 at 14:12.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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    Senior Member NotAPretender's Avatar
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    "Whew, that's a toughy. Like most people, he probably never suspected that the police would ever lie, or be deceptive towards him."

    I can see we grew up in different worlds, Mr Fred.

    "I see white people". If the dude had been black he'd likely be dead...

    Quote Originally posted by Fred Steeves View Post
    David Wharton (News Now Houston) has become one of my favorites at this film the police thing. He first hit the scene maybe a year or so ago, and I've watched him get better and better along the way both in his knowledge of basic Constitutional law, and how to deal with people in tense situations. A valuable life skill for any endeavor, but especially so when dealing with people who can lock you up in a cage with any missteps.

    In this latest video David masterfully demonstrates the power of knowledge, making Grace Under Pressure look like child's play. It's obvious he thoroughly enjoyed this encounter, as did I, and I think you will too.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYYDgeu25QI


    For clarity's sake, these guys don't do this for kicks. They do it as a teaching tool (for both police and the general public) that photography is not a crime, even in these days of heightened terrorism paranoia. David was arrested 3 times last year, and detained 27 times. At no point did he ever break the law...
    Houston suburb...
    "We are one thought away from changing the world!"

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    I was quite annoyed when people were not allowed on the beaches after the oil spill in the Gulf. Also when there was a pipeline leak in a neighborhood (don't recall where at the moment) not even the media was allowed in. That seemed very wrong to me.

    I'm glad these videos are being made.

    I feel like people need a personal lawyer just to navigate the world these days.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally posted by Dreamtimer View Post
    I'm glad these videos are being made.
    I am too, the camera doesn't lie. I actually did my own for the first time just a couple of weeks ago right next to where we work every day on a house we are fixing up to rent out. The wife and I were sitting in my truck eating lunch, when something happened to catch my eye in the rear view mirror at the little corner store two doors down. I thought I saw two Knoxville cops with pistols drawn approaching the drive through they have, so I quick turned and sure as shit...

    Next thing you know there are cops swarming all over the place, SWAT guys in tactical gear with M-16's at the ready, other regular cops with guns drawn, plain clothes with guns drawn, all coming out of the wood work descending upon this little store. So to make a long story short I grabbed my phone, got as close as I could (maybe 50-75') from the front door they were storming, and started recording.

    Thankfully nothing bad came of it, but if something unseemly HAD gone down I was Johnny on the spot to capture it and get it out on YouTube. Nobody would have seen my stupid little rinky dink channel, but I know the mega popular ones to send it to, who would surely have "mirrored" it out there for tens or even hundreds of thousands to see.


    Who knows though, often times a camera plainly present prevents that kind of shit from happening in the first place. It's all about accountability.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Like that nurse who got arrested in the hospital. She actually waited and gave the cops a chance to show what happened. They didn't so then she went public.

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    Senior Member Fred Steeves's Avatar
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    So this short clip I filmed yesterday while doing some concrete repair work behind a house we just rented out. The back story we learned afterwards from Jason our local beat cop featured here, is that we had no idea who we were dealing with concerning this new unfamiliar homeless guy "TJ" who had just appeared on the scene.

    After this was shot Jason came back over, and we learned more details about TJ. The reason we hadn't seen him around is because he had just gotten out of jail after 14 months after being arrested by Jason for beating the living shit out of his girl companion because he couldn't post bail pending his December trial. He broke her nose, blackened her eyes, and broke her arm. Then on the way to jail he was screaming at Jason that he's going to find his kids at school and kill them, find out where he lives and kill his wife, really horrible, despicable stuff.

    Had I known all that about him at our lunch time encounter briefly described in the video just moments before, I would have had my gun at the ready the way he was behaving, especially towards my wife, with that increasingly crazy drunken look in his eyes. As it was I had finally put my food down, gotten out of the truck, and talked very sternly with him face to face, eye to eye, while also physically demonstrating how much bigger I am than he is. He backed off. Sometimes enough is enough. I'll tell you what, talk about someone who truly deserves to be locked up and removed from society. Or shot...

    So I give Knoxville PD a two thumbs up on this one, as "To serve and Protect" is what policing is truly supposed to be about, not "To stalk and Fleece". They were Johnny on the spot just as TJ was about to beat the shit out of that other guy.

    I think I'm going to request doing a ride along some time soon with him, should prove very interesting and educational. Probably for both of us. As a by and by it should be obvious here that I'm not anti cop, far from it. I'm anti bully cop, anti bad cop.

    TJ is the guy with no shirt on. By the way we also learned he likes to steal people's stuff, swear to the hilt it's his, and will go so far as to fight you for it. He also stabbed a little old man just around the corner.

    Last edited by Fred Steeves, 6th October 2018 at 11:58.
    The unexamined life is not worth living.

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    Super Moderator United States Dreamtimer's Avatar
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    Jeez, Fred. There's a house across the street that has recovering addicts living in it. But none of them has ever caused any trouble around here. It's not an official facility, I think the owner does it on his own. I'm not sure how he meets the people he helps, perhaps through church or work.

    Just so you know, you've never come across as anti-cop. I think you've been very clear from the get-go about your purpose.

    There's a newly developed app for new iPhones which enables Siri to start recording and keep recording without interruption with one command.

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