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The One
28th August 2016, 08:02
aPv3vOoFem0

Streamed live on Aug 17, 2016
The strange case of Zen Gardner and what it teaches us about discernment and trust in the Alt Media Community

Amanda
28th August 2016, 08:22
For some reason I was never interested in this man calling himself Zen Gardner. Was it my instinct? I have never been interested in him and now I note that many others are now not interested in him. Having a connection to the elite paedophile rings will never garner support from the general public.

Much Peace & Much Respect - Amanda

Cearna
28th August 2016, 11:09
Ok, Amanda, I will add my two cents worth on this one as well, same thing happened with me, every time, someone put one of this persons, videos up, my feelings told me yep nice story, telling what so many want to hear and phrasing with such wondrous words that I as usual felt really put off with insincerity and fit for the gullible to gobble up. A gift for imagery, as against the true feelings from the heart of a person who really loves the Earth and all it represents, will always come across as what it is, insincerity will always leave a ? for anyone who has truly learnt to discern what they indulge themselves to read to feel uplifted. As you say question, but some things do not require questioning do they?

Elen
28th August 2016, 14:32
It seems like it's all falling apart at the seams now. CW Chanter is right on target, I only wish he would try to save the cursing for moments of real need. It has stopped me from listening to him in the past, because of it.

Having said that, he is really on to something with his research, especially now. There are things we are not allowed to ignore, like Paedophilia. Just the thought of it makes me really really mad. :mad:

Innocent Warrior
28th August 2016, 15:36
From article, ]"Spiritual Con-Artistry and Chicanery (Note: HIGHLY disturbing content and NSFW links and information)" (https://earthenergyreader.wordpress.com) -


I’m not going to go into the back and forth between Zen Gardner and Steve. If you want to know the exact details and chronology of this fallout, I suggest reading the following articles and links in this order:

1) Zen’s convoluted and nebulous “confession” (http://www.zengardner.com/my-missing-years/) full of vague remarks and no concise details.
2) Steve’s exposé of Zen (http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13298)
3) How other researchers unfortunately became implicated (https://www.davidicke.com/article/381970/hatred-sean-adl-tabatabai-yournewswire-com) for simply even highlighting Zen’s work
4) Zen’s reply to the “witch-hunt” (http://www.zengardner.com/few-replies/)
5) Steve releases some of his emails (http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13437) with the information where Zen admitted his deep involvement with the cult.
6) Steve is posting reactions from around the internet (http://sorendreier.com/the-zen-gardner-deception/) on Philosopher’s Stone’s homepage

A few things, right off the bat.
1) Don Ferguson fessed up to his involvement in this sick cult only AFTER being threatened with being exposed....

* * *

From comment section by Zen Gardner, article "Now and Zen: To Whom It May Concern" (his website), dated 27/8/2016 -


So touching 5D. The site will be phased out soon but I’ll be in touch personally and let you and others know what I’m up to.
No sinking ship here – they’re just making me a submarine for now while they have their world war of the artificially awakened.
Only good can come of it – all part of the revelation.
As you said, truth lives on. I’ve given it my all and Universe is giving me another new life and opportunity to keep transforming. It’s all good. Much love always! Thanks for everything, you been a real pleasure and asset to the site and blessing to many. x!

modwiz
28th August 2016, 19:05
It seems like it's all falling apart at the seams now. CW Chanter is right on target, I only wish he would try to save the cursing for moments of real need. It has stopped me from listening to him in the past, because of it.

Having said that, he is really on to something with his research, especially now. There are things we are not allowed to ignore, like Paedophilia. Just the thought of it makes me really really mad. :mad:

Yes, he is a potty mouth. Phil B is even worse. That language is for emphasis and abuse of it leads to interruptions of good thought.

Maggie
29th August 2016, 20:14
Something that many internet present day personalities share: Promoting particular partisan perspectives with pressured pomposity and profuse (cussing like expletives). That's the Rush Limbaugh effect.

Maggie
29th August 2016, 20:29
From article, ]"Spiritual Con-Artistry and Chicanery (Note: HIGHLY disturbing content and NSFW links and information)" (https://earthenergyreader.wordpress.com) -

"So touching 5D. The site will be phased out soon but I’ll be in touch personally and let you and others know what I’m up to.
No sinking ship here – they’re just making me a submarine for now while they have their world war of the artificially awakened.
Only good can come of it – all part of the revelation.
As you said, truth lives on. I’ve given it my all and Universe is giving me another new life and opportunity to keep transforming. It’s all good. Much love always! Thanks for everything, you been a real pleasure and asset to the site and blessing to many. x!"

From comment section by Zen Gardner, article "Now and Zen: To Whom It May Concern" (his website), dated 27/8/2016 -

So,that last quote was from ZG? I followed this story because I read Bernard Guenther's blog. I noticed some people really liked what Bernard Guenther stated. I liked the quote below...friends don't let friends drive drunk(en in narcissistic hubris)



Hi Donald,

I’d rather address you by your real name to cut through the “image” of the public “Zen Gardner”. My intention is to write to you as a friend and how I would communicate to any good friend I have who’d be in the situation you are in and the way you have handled it so far. What I write here I’ll also Cc to Benny (he has read it before I sent it anyway). I want it to be completely open between friends. It also comes from a place of support. However, to set the “stage” of my letter to you, I’d like to share this quote, which resembles to me what TRUE friendship is all about between “friends” who are engaged in the same work during these times we are in:

“According to the Great Work, a friend is one in which you support and encourage the other’s expansion in either the mind or the spirit. Otherwise they are people you are sentimentally attached to it because they would eat cinnamon bun with you. And they will say ‘hee, hee, hee’ aren’t we having fun”. Drug addicts do the same thing. Drug addicts want to be around people who will support them and be away from real friends. Do you know why? Because it feels good. To be a member of a mystery school can be catastrophic to the ego and to the ego’s habits and to the propensity for mediocrity. No one ever cried striving for excellence. They only cried when their mediocrity was taken away from them and pointed out to them.”

~ Jerhoam
AN OPEN LETTER TO DON FERGUSON A.K.A. ZEN GARDNER (https://veilofreality.com/2016/08/19/an-open-letter-to-don-ferguson-a-k-a-zen-gardner/)



He like others has encouraged Don to step out of the business. he really should as it is based on deceptive stature.

Elen said


It seems like it's all falling apart at the seams now.

This is what I see also. It is like all the artificially maintained collective relationships are cracking under foot.

IMO it has to do with the possibility that we are all opening to the Natural Intelligence of the higher mind...that aspect that just knows what is true. As long as we could be be caught by persuasive ideas like the "special status" of some people (leading to their special abuse of their positions), we were bound to be disappointed. I am really excited by this evidence of changing timelines. We are losing that button on our psyches that shuts "SUCKER" (an expletive). This will seem to take time but does not really)


“wizened sages” to whom otherwise-sensible
people give their devotion and unquestioning obedience, surrendering
their independence, willpower, and life’s savings in the hope of
realizing for themselves the same “enlightenment” as they ascribe to
the “perfect, God-realized” master.
Why?
Is it for being emotionally vulnerable and “brainwashed,” as the
“anti-cultists” assert? Or for being “willingly psychologically seduced,”
as the apologists unsympathetically counter, confident that
they themselves are “too smart” to ever fall into the same trap? Or
have devotees simply walked, with naïvely open hearts and thirsty
souls, into inherent psychological dynamics of power and obedience
which have showed themselves in classic psychological studies from
Milgram to Zimbardo, and to which each one of us is susceptible
every day of our lives?
Like the proud “Rude Boy” Cohen allegedly said, with a laugh, in response
to the nervous breakdown of one of his devoted followers: “It
could happen to any one of you.”
Don’t let it happen to you. Don’t get suckered in. Be prepared. Be informed.
Stripping the Gurus: Sex, Violence, Abuse and Enlightenment (https://ia800205.us.archive.org/22/items/StrippingTheGurus/Stripping_the_Gurus1.pdf)

Innocent Warrior
29th August 2016, 23:19
So,that last quote was from ZG?

Yep, he's gone into projection mode and not feeling so zen now. :shapeshift:

Amanda
1st September 2016, 09:52
Seems the truth is fizzing up to the surface - it always does. I must admit to having learned a massive amount of information over the course of my current journey - by this I mean: I have trusted those who I ought not to have trusted. I have been smeared. I have had private messages edited and posted on line...the list goes on but there have been some directions I just did not want to travel. Why did I choose to ignore this Zen Gardner person???

Maybe my health is actually slowly being regained and that includes my instincts. I have relied on my instincts all my life - feels good to think I at least got this one right.

Much Peace & Much Respect - Amanda

Dreamtimer
1st September 2016, 14:45
Keep relying on your instincts, Amanda. It can be a life saver.:thup:

pointessa
1st September 2016, 15:49
I was going to write something here about how it seems unfair to judge this man when, to my knowledge, there is no direct proof that he was involved with any pedophilia or sex abuse. In fact it really bothered me. That was my cue to look at why I was bothered so much by this. I realized that this is exactly what I have done to Corey Goode, The Ruiner, and Simon. I have judged them with no direct evidence. I feel absolutely sure that they are fakes and frauds but do I know that to be the absolute truth? No. I have circumstantial evidence and have found evidence of dishonesty but I don't know for sure that Corey isn't visiting Mars and chitchatting with blue bird/aliens. So once again I have found that those things that seem to annoy me or make me angry and full of righteous indignation are not about someone else, they are about me in one way or the other. Why is someone like Corey a trigger for me? Probably, I don't want to recognize some level of dishonesty in myself. My type of dishonesty tends to fall under the classification of "sins of omission". That may be similar to what Zen has done. If I ignore it, it never happened. I can lead others to see a picture I've painted with pertinent details left out. Not a blatant lie, but tolerating the distortion of the truth.


'
I imagine that very few people on this planet have transcended their ego. If that is true, and the unbridled ego is manifesting there is always going to be some sort of falling short from our ideal self. The ones that really scare me in this scenario are the Guru types that have their own web sites that are attacking him,or "lovingly" bringing the truth to light. What are their motives? To reveal the truth, or to get more hits on their web sites? To get a little more exposure? Are their shortcomings just a little bit better than Zens? Do they see themselves as righteous warriors exposing the truth, as they gossip back and forth and profess their previous friendship with Zen which has now turned to righteous indignation? I suspect they do. Apparently others appear to see them as that as well. So it's out of the boiling pot and into the frying pan!


What about those good Christians that still go to the Catholic church, and bring their kids there? What about the priest and nuns and anyone employed by the Catholic church? Where's the disdain for those folks? Are they not continuing involvement in an organization that is known to allow their "employees" to engage in pedophilia and then protect them if they are found out? Let's face it,dishonesty and corruption in varying degrees permeates the human race and all of their organizations. There may be a handful of exceptions, in those that have truly transcended the egoic self. As long as we carry this part of ourselves that separates us from others this will be so. As long as I see myself as separate from the whole I will look to protect and find security for myself. It may manifest in a thousand ways but it will always distort the wholeness of what is. Every single problem that mankind creates on this planet happens because of the unbridled ego running amuck. It happens because we buy into those thoughts that the ego manifests, because we believe what we hear in our heads and take it for the gospel truth.




I imagine that Zen's act of omission was due to fear of the response of others and in this case his fear may have been warranted. Since I have not heard anyone come forward and say he was involved in pedophilia I am not going to assume he was, just like I don't assume that all clergy in the Catholic church are pedophiles or advocate pedophilia.

Amanda
2nd September 2016, 01:28
pointessa - you may be right in all you state. When it comes to all the others you mention, such as the Catholic church, it seems people see a title to a thread and that is where their mental focus is directed. It is true that many are smeared and sometimes - not always - with little to no discernible evidence.

I happen to be in a position where I have eyes and ears everywhere - information and evidence makes its way to me regularly. As I have already stated - I have learned much on my current heart breaking journey. This one thing I do know - there are fakes and shills and trolls and disinformation agents - they exist and they are fraught with creating more layers of chaos, than are already here. One tactic of the shills/trolls/disinformation agents is to create a hero - ensure they have loads of publicity - then uncover them. On a psychological level what ensues is this; The millions of people following the hero and absorbing every written word and spoken word - now enter a completely different level of chaos. No evidence needed - happens regularly on the worldwideweb.

Just sharing for pointessa and others who might be interested in my direct perspective.

Much Peace & Much Respect - as we continue to make our way out of the created chaos to a place of calm - Amanda :unity:

modwiz
2nd September 2016, 02:27
Common or Human law requires a victim. So far we have none with ZG. So, holding a trial is both premature and wrong. The RC church has MANY. Covering for them is is clearly wrong. Families also have their identified victims to pursue remedial action with. Focusing on ZG is not time well spent, IMO. Some, will get viewers with this subject and so they troll this subject. I do understand that some of these people are reacting from noble protective instincts that are emotionally driven so, expecting logic would be foolish. I speak of the threads and videos currently proliferating about ZG.

Rebel&Rocket
2nd September 2016, 03:15
I think the point to people's anger is that he admitted that he was in the organization for 27 years - many of them in a leadership role and as the head of marketing/PR. It was his job to spin what anyone saw from the outside and condemned. It was his job to know what was going on and to keep it hidden from the rest of the world. Whether or not he practiced what was preached by their leader, he was admittedly still complicit in covering it up. Whether or not he ever touched a single child himself, he aided and protected those who did. So, at the very least, he is the Catholic church protecting abusive priests.

I haven't been around this community for years like a lot of you. I haven't seen the waves and waves of gurus and whistleblowers come and go, but it hasn't taken me long to figure out the dynamic. This is a community of vocal people. They are here because they're angry and disillusioned, and hoping to find like-minded people to have intelligent conversations with. They don't let anyone get away with anything...they pride themselves on being critical. They're critical of absolutely everything else from politics to religion to...well, everything, so it's no wonder they're critical here. They came here because they didn't like being duped in the first place. You bet your you-know-what they're going to be critical within the community.

I don't think that a situation like this is simply a case of unbridled ego and falling short of our ideal self. It takes a very particular type of person to prey on children. It's a sickness that goes way beyond the ego. The darkest side of human potential is our ability to cannibalize each other - especially emotionally and spiritually. It's something we are all capable of. People that prey on the most vulnerable of us in the most damaging ways are, without a doubt, the darkest of the dark. I wanted to say that it's the antithesis of human nature - but maybe it's not. Maybe our nature really is brutal and selfish and we fight the extreme darkness in our potential to keep some balance, to transcend our nature.

Your "judging without direct evidence" is not ego in my eyes. You've had a visceral reaction to the feeling, your own instincts, that these people are preying on others. I appreciate your willingness to look inside and see if your problems with these people are a reflection of something in you. Over-intellectualizing your instincts can potentially be a disservice to yourself though - something I need to remember myself.

We all innately know right from wrong. We just forget to listen to ourselves.

Well, Modwiz...so much for me taking the high road on this topic. Lol.

Innocent Warrior
2nd September 2016, 03:57
There’s no denying there is still a major lack of compassion in the alternative community, as a whole. If we want more transparency then we'll need to work on providing a safe space for people like Zen Gardner to be more open about issues like this. That’s our responsibility to address.

I agree accusing Gardner of being a paedophile is presumptuous but do you really believe there’s nobody who considers themselves victims of the leaders of that cult?

Imagine being born into the Children of God cult (COG). We’re literally in download mode for the first six years of our life. Imagine what it’s like to be told who you are, in every way, and being deprived of all the choices we take for granted, like how many squares of toilet paper you can use and how to wipe your bum, from the time you were born. No choices, no individuality, no parents because they split them up, zero freedom. To make it even more messed up, it’s all done in the name of God and Jesus. So we’re looking at severe mental, emotional, spiritual, and, for many, sexual abuse.

It would take a near saint to recover from that, a real one, not a Catholic one. It would be near impossible.

Gardner joined the cult as a very young adult, 22 years old. I understand what Gardner said about how cults work; they begin with beautiful ideals and gradually morph into absolute insanity. There’s enough insanity in our culture for us to be able to empathise, to a degree. It’s not difficult to understand how Gardner became so brainwashed that he didn’t leave as soon as he became aware of any abuse, which he has admitted to. That doesn’t change the fact he didn’t leave though, it’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. It’s understandable, but he still didn’t leave, so it’s no wonder people no longer care to accept him on a guru platform. That’s his responsibility. And he is projecting, and quite frankly that was dumb of him to judge others for judging him. That’s where I went astray, I was compassionate until he had the audacity to judge others in the community and I ended up doing what he did and hit back.

I’m sorry to you, Pointessa, and to anyone else I hurt with my posts.

modwiz
2nd September 2016, 04:39
There’s no denying there is still a major lack of compassion in the alternative community, as a whole. If we want more transparency then we'll need to work on providing a safe space for people like Zen Gardner to be more open about issues like this. That’s our responsibility to address.

I agree accusing Gardner of being a paedophile is presumptuous but do you really believe there’s nobody who considers themselves victims of the leaders of that cult?

Imagine being born into the Children of God cult (COG). We’re literally in download mode for the first six years of our life. Imagine what it’s like to be told who you are, in every way, and being deprived of all the choices we take for granted, like how many squares of toilet paper you can use and how to wipe your bum, from the time you were born. No choices, no individuality, no parents because they split them up, zero freedom. To make it even more messed up, it’s all done in the name of God and Jesus. So we’re looking at severe mental, emotional, spiritual, and, for many, sexual abuse.

It would take a near saint to recover from that, a real one, not a Catholic one. It would be near impossible.

Gardner joined the cult as a very young adult, 22 years old. I understand what Gardner said about how cults work; they begin with beautiful ideals and gradually morph into absolute insanity. There’s enough insanity in our culture for us to be able to empathise, to a degree. It’s not difficult to understand how Gardner became so brainwashed that he didn’t leave as soon as he became aware of any abuse, which he has admitted to. That doesn’t change the fact he didn’t leave though, it’s not an excuse, it’s a reason. It’s understandable, but he still didn’t leave, so it’s no wonder people no longer care to accept him on a guru platform. That’s his responsibility. And he is projecting, and quite frankly that was dumb of him to judge others for judging him. That’s where I went astray, I was compassionate until he had the audacity to judge others in the community and I ended up doing what he did and hit back.

I’m sorry to you, Pointessa, and to anyone else I hurt with my posts.


I never thought much of Zen Gardener. I found his writing unexceptional and many of his posts were portions of articles linking to other writers. Click bait, basically. So for me, he was not a guru by any measure and I found his links at rense.com. I never sought his site out because he was just one of many with a site, and a dull one at that. Since I never held him up as anything he didn't fall. I had the same thing with the Ruiner. I was never personally engaged but, an observer. Unlike the Ruiner, I won't say I like ZG. He was a name I recognized but. a nobody to me. I compare the Ruiner to ZG only in the sense of my reaction to a "bust" I would never want anyone to think they belong in a category together from my perspective. ZG, clearly has tawdry ties, at a minimum. Even if he is innocent of participation in wrongdoing he has some guilt by association and remains a blowhard in my eyes with a relevance I never understood.

Elen
2nd September 2016, 06:16
Originally posted by Rebel&Rocket
We all innately know right from wrong. We just forget to listen to ourselves.
Amen to that :tiphat:

pointessa
2nd September 2016, 12:26
I think the point to people's anger is that he admitted that he was in the organization for 27 years - many of them in a leadership role and as the head of marketing/PR. It was his job to spin what anyone saw from the outside and condemned. It was his job to know what was going on and to keep it hidden from the rest of the world. Whether or not he practiced what was preached by their leader, he was admittedly still complicit in covering it up. Whether or not he ever touched a single child himself, he aided and protected those who did. So, at the very least, he is the Catholic church protecting abusive priests.

I haven't been around this community for years like a lot of you. I haven't seen the waves and waves of gurus and whistleblowers come and go, but it hasn't taken me long to figure out the dynamic. This is a community of vocal people. They are here because they're angry and disillusioned, and hoping to find like-minded people to have intelligent conversations with. They don't let anyone get away with anything...they pride themselves on being critical. They're critical of absolutely everything else from politics to religion to...well, everything, so it's no wonder they're critical here. They came here because they didn't like being duped in the first place. You bet your you-know-what they're going to be critical within the community.

I don't think that a situation like this is simply a case of unbridled ego and falling short of our ideal self. It takes a very particular type of person to prey on children. It's a sickness that goes way beyond the ego. The darkest side of human potential is our ability to cannibalize each other - especially emotionally and spiritually. It's something we are all capable of. People that prey on the most vulnerable of us in the most damaging ways are, without a doubt, the darkest of the dark. I wanted to say that it's the antithesis of human nature - but maybe it's not. Maybe our nature really is brutal and selfish and we fight the extreme darkness in our potential to keep some balance, to transcend our nature.

Your "judging without direct evidence" is not ego in my eyes. You've had a visceral reaction to the feeling, your own instincts, that these people are preying on others. I appreciate your willingness to look inside and see if your problems with these people are a reflection of something in you. Over-intellectualizing your instincts can potentially be a disservice to yourself though - something I need to remember myself.

We all innately know right from wrong. We just forget to listen to ourselves.

Well, Modwiz...so much for me taking the high road on this topic. Lol.



I really appreciate what you said here, RebelRocket. I have given it consideration and will take it to heart. I have a strong tendency to view from intellectualizing and logic.. and the intellectualizing isn't always so intelligent....I also, appreciate your comments as well modwiz and Innocent Warrior.

ERK
16th September 2016, 00:48
For some reason I was never interested in this man calling himself Zen Gardner. Was it my instinct? I have never been interested in him and now I note that many others are now not interested in him. Having a connection to the elite paedophile rings will never garner support from the general public.

Much Peace & Much Respect - Amanda

Same........never followed him. It is my sense now that mostly everything in alt/ media is BS.

Amanda
17th September 2016, 02:23
TRIGGER WARNING - FOR ANY VICTIMS AND WITNESSES WHO MAY BE READING THROUGH THIS THREAD.



Modwiz - your comment about Common or Human Law requires a victim. I would like to express myself succinctly while still respecting and understanding your comments.

One thing is clear when it comes to paedophiles and predators - victims and witnesses seldom come forward. When they come forward it is usually historical, which in Australia is a legal term. When a victim or witness comes forward to Police - they are making what is known as an 'Historical Report' and there is no time limit. The only time the Police will not/cannot investigate is when the POI is deceased.

Many victims and witnesses - at an elite paedophile ring level - may be ritually sacrificed/murdered and other victims forced to watch or even participate. This engenders fear of coming forward because they are now implicated - even though by force and obvious coercion.

Many victims and witnesses bury their pain and I have learned that once they decide to come forward - that is it - it is THEIR timing and not the timing of anyone else. I have noted patterns and it is one pattern that is continually exposing itself.

Another pattern is that some victims and witnesses will contact me - make a few short comments and state that is all they will share with me. Sometimes I can actually sense the relief - even through the internet and the typed words. They tell me a little and they go away and return when they are ready. When they describe anything ritual - they know that by coming forward they are risking their own safety and the safety of their family.

So - when a comment is made about needing a victim or witness - they may be many many many but coming forward in any manner that is public and that identifies them in anyway - is not going to happen unless it is THEIR time.

I have learned to be discerning and I keep the confidence of every single person who contacts me - and - let's just say that some names and locations are being mentioned on a regular level.

Please be kind when discussing such a sensitive subject as Child Sexual Abuse - there are heaven knows how many victims and witnesses who sit silently carrying their pain and torment - having never expressed it to anyone - ever. There was one instance shared with me - a person who was over eighty years old - one day decided to share their pain with a Teacher. What was described was regular visits to a certain place - every single weekend of their Childhood. All I can do is hope that some relief was found by sharing details of the experience with someone who actually cared.

All I want to state, from my personal and direct experience is this: Absence of victims and witnesses is not absence of Child Sexual Abuse. Just as Homicide Detectives have recorded in their history of learning to detect crime - and backwards at that: Absence of a murder victim is not absence of a Crime.

Thank you once again The One Truth - for allowing me to express myself freely and in a safe place.

Much Peace & Much Respect - as we work our way through the created chaos with dignity - Amanda

Cearna
17th September 2016, 03:56
Thank you Amanda, for your statement here, much food for thought, it is difficult to understand the motives of both victim and victimised, for an on-looker, but I know what my own torment was, just going through life, without being a victim myself, for I did what I did from my own choice, knowing the pain it would cause me, but what if you had no choice in the first place? After I had lived with my decision for far too long, what I needed most of all was someone, I could just talk to, until what I had to do was just keep talking, to begin to get myself into the next decision, which was to get up and walk away, knowing I could no longer live under those circumstances. In some ways you feel you have right on your side yet, the whole of your life is nothing but torment. I no longer live under those same circumstances, I changed my life, but I did not have to live with what many of these poor victims live with, and should never have had to live with.

I have had but one experience of your sort of world and that was at the time when I was beginning to give energies to other for healing. One lady, brought to us her two daughters, all Catholics, and we later found that she was a victim of Church sexual abuse as a child, and she was haunted by it. she married and had four daughters. She found out that her husband was sexually abusing children, as he was a teacher, and the whole situation was a nightmare. We ended having to treat her for cancer,just to relieve her somewhat because she died, leaving those four girls to an abuse prone man, we lost tough with the family, but they were opening up to us, where it was being hidden before, and they were at the stage of being ready to take action against the priest. You are so right Amanda, we do need to seek and respect the fact that this is a bigger and more complicated thing. coming to grips with the situation begins in what this thread is about and I salute all who speak up, it has to be done.