A speech for vegetarianism

[scibuster]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90628-ARE-YOU-SPECIAL-or-are-you-ENTITLED


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUTgZ7s_hiw#

.
I will stay in my preference meal: matched potatoes.
But I must eleminate this bit butter, this bit milk, this egg, but not this bit nutmeg powder.
replace butter by ???
replace milk by ???
replace egg by ???

[Joanna]

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90628-ARE-YOU-SPECIAL-or-are-you-ENTITLED
.
I will stay in my preference meal: matched potatoes.
But I must eleminate this bit butter, this bit milk, this egg, but not this bit nutmeg powder.
replace butter by ???
replace milk by ???
replace egg by ???

Well...you could replace your butter with coconut oil, your milk with soy milk, almond milk, rice milk or macadamia milk, your egg with No Egg, Egglike or other egg replacers...or use your creative imagination and come up with other alternatives...
Enjoy your 21st century mashed potatoes ;)

[modwiz]

I am an O+ blood type and have thrived on a vegetarian diet for over 26 years. Occaissional, very seldom, wild salmon has been on my plate. I eat it totemistically and welcome its DNA with my own and embrace its dynamism. Also, it is a predator fish and that feels right. The doctor who wrote the book on diet and blood types recanted their opinion years ago. But like people who use MSM to vindicate their myopia, many still use a retracted argument to make their case. However, diet is personal, as is the karma for the industry it creates.

[enjoy being]

I could only listen to the first 20 or 30 seconds of that. Far too many emotive words all strung together. I have no idea what she was going to try and support but it just made my skin crawl a little as she was setting off in a manner which by use of all the power words suggested a desire to manipulate the audience.

[modwiz]

I could only listen to the first 20 or 30 seconds of that. Far too many emotive words all strung together. I have no idea what she was going to try and support but it just made my skin crawl a little as she was setting off in a manner which by use of all the power words suggested a desire to manipulate the audience.


I did not think to watch it. Scibuster posted it, lol. I just wanted to keep an idea moving if there was any interest in it. Thirty million chickens are "processed" a year in the American South. Processed, a very unemotional word. So much so it masks the horror of the reality. Part of that horror is the toll it takes on the human psyche for people who need a job. It's a bitch to be unskilled but, being one of those chickens is immeasurably worse. Chickens fit into the Creator's plans with far more grace than an assembly line "processing' factory worker.

[enjoy being]

The topic of processing is indeed quite important. The topic of carnivorism v non carnivorism is a devisive one in many circles. The concepts of killing or techniques rather create a fair bit of controversy. Halal principals, or even home killing done with respect and consideration to the animal is at least a start. I believe factory processing creates toxic meat. And as you allude to, affects those actually doing the killing. Many carnivores, I am guessing, don't really think about the meat they eat and how the abattoir is not much different to a death camp. If intent is important in so much, it is the mindless careless heartless thoughtless state of day to day killing condoned silence that makes that industry into a group effort of horror, and becomes a huge dark mark on humanity.
Oops, I slipped into emotive language myself there a bit!

[Dreamtimer]

I have a friend who's a developer. When they clear the land it's called rape and scrape. Seems to me that's degrading both to the land and the people who are using the language.

I'd rather have chickens for eggs.

[enjoy being]

Nice thread bump actually modwiz. I didn't pick it was started a month ago!
Nice, because I had another go at watching it. It was a bit of a challenge a few times but I watched the whole thing. And hey maybe I am the last one to watch it and everyone has seen it and it is why not much comment was made.
This is actually worth watching.

[modwiz]

Nice thread bump actually modwiz. I didn't pick it was started a month ago!
Nice, because I had another go at watching it. It was a bit of a challenge a few times but I watched the whole thing. And hey maybe I am the last one to watch it and everyone has seen it and it is why not much comment was made.
This is actually worth watching.

There are a number of videos making the case for being vegetarian/vegan but, they seem to include horrific images........from what I am told. I have never watched even one. I was already vegetarian before they started populating the web. John Robbins' "Diet for a New America" apparently includes some pretty nasty visuals. I do not need, or want, the trauma. Even some videos about the NWO contain visuals I either avert my eyes from or minimize the window to my tool bar. Ideas and visuals are food also and I consider those images to be the equivalent of excrement. Since fast food eaters regular consume shit, watching it is just another day in paradise for them, lol. It is good to know you found the video worthy of your time. I will still skip it as this choir boy needs no preaching to. :priest::lol::whstl:

[modwiz]

Let us feed this thread. Vegan, of course.


At present, 1 in 2 men and 1 in 3 women in the United States will develop cancer in their lifetimes.

Furthermore, the number of cancer cases is expected to double by the year 2050. Obviously, this news is distressing.

However, there is hope, and the solution could be as simple as eating more unprocessed plant-based foods.

According to a study conducted in 2005, scientists have learned that blood taken from vegans is 8 times more effective at killing cancer cells than blood taken from those following a Standard American Diet.

http://www.zengardner.com/study-vegan-blood-8x-effective-killing-cancer-cells/

[Dreamtimer]

I have family and friends who are vegetarian. My niece was for a while. My cousin has been most of her life. I haven't known many vegans.

My mother was strongly opposed to vegetarianism. She was convinced there were long term health problems but never really had specifics. She worried about getting enough B vitamins and enough protein.

I've always focused on eating fresh food, minimizing processed and refined foods. My son has surpassed me in terms of creative, healthful and nutritious meal preparation. There are many more good options available now in supermarkets.

[enjoy being]

When I posted the last post, I had to resist several times the desire to edit and add a clarification or two on what I specifically found worthy of claiming as worthy.
But I felt I had to or wanted to just leave it as I did, knowing it would prompt assumption about why I found value in it. I feel this is a great video to test oneself. I feel the notion of prejudiced mind and the triggers we are controlled by is the value here. It's 30mins. I was at different points, battling myself, while watching my reactions to if I agreed or not. I decided it was a good teaching tool. Sure, I have seen the data used before, its not about that, it is about reaction, about mind programming. Especially if explained as such in conjunction with watching. I wanted to see if any others from here would get that. First success is watching it. The mind just puts forward excuses not to, like my first post.

Add. Oh, that is a keen point however, about the harsh imagery, Modwiz, and I respect that, most of it is contained within a warned section, but a few bits leak out into areas of the rest. Should acknowledge that for any viewers.

[bsbray]

I agree with the general sentiment in this video that the practices being described are cruel and should not be happening. But on the other hand if people raise their own cattle or goats or whatever, and treat them humanely and not as products in an assembly line, I see nothing wrong with milking your cows or goats if that's what you want to do. If more people produce their own food in general we'd all be better off for it.

[modwiz]

I agree with the general sentiment in this video that the practices being described are cruel and should not be happening. But on the other hand if people raise their own cattle or goats or whatever, and treat them humanely and not as products in an assembly line, I see nothing wrong with milking your cows or goats if that's what you want to do. If more people produce their own food in general we'd all be better off for it.

Agreed, brother. Also, slitting of a throat with a razor sharp knife can even be done without the animal noticing more than what felt like a fly bite. If done while eating, they may even return to eating.....until they fall over. :holysheep:

Killing needs to be personal to approach legitimacy, IMO.

[Dreamtimer]

Modwiz, you speak of the halal or kosher way. A friend explained to me that the animal must be calm and happy rather than terrorized at death. The fear is seen to 'poison' the meat.

[enjoy being]

Hi Dreamtimer. When I first had some halal meat it was the only thing to compare to that which we had growing up. The cut with halal also leaves one artery intact which allows the heart to pump all of the blood out very quickly.
We used to have land, just 7 acres, and on some of it, grazed cattle. 4 maximum. 2 young 2 old. They never had names, we fed them and looked after them. An old fellow my folks knew would come and take the shot when the time came. He would quite happily drive home 25km having not taken the shot, if the time was wrong. He could tell if it had been running about or spooked. One time he was all lined up and it turned and looked at him and snorted at him so he put the gun away and went home. A big gun too, and the shot was to a small target at a certain place.
Anyway, being involved in the process in that way, there's a respect, even a prayer of sorts as you wait to hear the shot.
When the animal was so relaxed, even with a mouthful of grass still, and then instantly bled out, the meat is "different". I fully understand how the release of chemicals into the body under stress changes all other meat. I see it as a defense mechanism or a cursing.

[blufire]

Agreed, brother. Also, slitting of a throat with a razor sharp knife can even be done without the animal noticing more than what felt like a fly bite. If done while eating, they may even return to eating.....until they fall over. :holysheep:

Killing needs to be personal to approach legitimacy, IMO.

I have a feeling modwiz that you have never slit an animal's throat.

[Elen]

;) I think you are right there, it's not an easy thing to do, and I don't think it should be either. :hiding:

[bsbray]

One of my uncles told me a story that one time my great grandpa shot a hog in the head with a short round 16 or 17 times. He said every time they shot that hog in the head, the hog would just shake his head and go on about his business as if nothing happened. Finally they had to stun him with an axe to the head before cutting his throat, very quickly before they knew what happened. That's how they used to kill hogs for food in the winter and it seems at least more humane than what would happen to these hogs in a factory.

Anyway they said that when they had cleaned it (my great grandpa used to eat the brains and everything), its skull was fractured all over but none of the bullets had gone through because its skull was about 2.5-3 inches thick on top. These hogs would weigh up to around 500 pounds or more too, fed very well all spring and summer.

[modwiz]

I have a feeling modwiz that you have never slit an animal's throat.

You are correct. I have not had the dubious pleasure of killing an animal that way. I have cut of the heads of many a live fish and shot a frog in half. Could do without the memories. My surmise came from a client of mine who was a bow hunter. He was also a five star French chef and had cooked for DeGaulle. He said the meat of bow hunted animals was superior because the crack of a gun frightened them before death. He recanted a story of shooting a deer through the heart while it was drinking at a stream. The arrow went straight through the deer and it looked up and around, saw nothing and returned to drinking before shortly falling over dead. I knew him to be an honest man but, one never knows.

Your usual charm tells me that you have and it was not so placid. Perhaps the animal was reacting to your energy. Whatever the case, I still feel that killing should be personal to be an honest one or at least one coming to grips with how flesh came to be in their mouth. I have said the little salmon I eat is wild and eaten for its totemistic energy. I have also said that eating a predator of other animals feels a lot better. I used to like bluefish, a very oily fish with a lot of dark flesh. The trashing of our oceans has me leaving that one alone now.

As an apologist for much of the mischief on this planet, do you have a story as to the good side of the poisoning of our oceans? I would be curious to hear it.

[blufire]

You are correct. I have not had the dubious pleasure of killing an animal that way. I have cut of the heads of many a live fish and shot a frog in half. Could do without the memories. My surmise came from a client of mine who was a bow hunter. He was also a five star French chef and had cooked for DeGaulle. He said the meat of bow hunted animals was superior because the crack of a gun frightened them before death. He recanted a story of shooting a deer through the heart while it was drinking at a stream. The arrow went straight through the deer and it looked up and around, saw nothing and returned to drinking before shortly falling over dead. I knew him to be an honest man but, one never knows.

Your usual charm tells me that you have and it was not so placid. Perhaps the animal was reacting to your energy. Whatever the case, I still feel that killing should be personal to be an honest one or at least one coming to grips with how flesh came to be in their mouth. I have said the little salmon I eat is wild and eaten for its totemistic energy. I have also said that eating a predator of other animals feels a lot better. I used to like bluefish, a very oily fish with a lot of dark flesh. The trashing of our oceans has me leaving that one alone now.

As an apologist for much of the mischief on this planet, do you have a story as to the good side of the poisoning of our oceans? I would be curious to hear it.


Why modwiz I would have never thought you would want anything in common with Bill Ryan and the rest of the Project Avalon minions. The label of me being an ‘apologist’ was started over on PA by Ryan just before he banned me . . . lol.

It has always been interesting to me since I have been on alternative type forums how when certain people don’t understand me or deliberately try to undermine my intentions they throw out labels that are inaccurate and demeaning.

I am not an apologist . . . if anything I am a realist and a pragmatist. Unlike many in the alternative media world and especially the New Age world I find value and knowledge in all points of view . . . even views I fundamentally do not agree with or accept.

Balance and grace and open heart and open mind . . . always

I few inaccuracies in your post modwiz. If you are shot and killed with a bullet you never hear the gun report. In the very least the sound of the rifle and impact happens simultaneously. There is no time for fear or pain.

Ever shot a gun? I have and own several rifles, shotguns and handguns. I am a very good hunter and harvest at least two deer a year to feed my dog’s raw meat throughout the year until next hunting season. I do my own butchering and processing and freeze the meat in daily sized portions. I never take a shot while hunting unless have a full kill shot. They drop where they are standing.

We do raise the majority of all our food including all our meat. Everything on my farms is raised organically and humanely. All that live on our farm lives in peace, sustainably and synergistically. We do not give thanks and gratitude only at the death of the animal because we give gratitude and thanks and love EVERYDAY we live together.

To just ‘slit’ an animal’s throat and let it bleed to death is utterly inhumane and painful. It is slow and agonizing and they suffer as they no longer receive oxygen throughout their bodies. We do a ‘kill shot’ at an angle to the head (where the head attaches to the spine) with a .243 or .308 if it is a beef or bison . . . their spirit is released instantaneously. Then we cut the throat so the animal will bleed out.

As for the poisoning of our oceans and other waters? I am always amused that somehow (again) the alternative community and New Agers and vegans or vegetarians somehow they feel they have no responsibility for atrocities like the poisoning of the oceans. Every last single person on this planet is responsible or at the very least those who live in ‘first world countries’ are clearly responsible . . . . . . and that includes you and me modwiz. There is no ‘good story’ to the poisoning of the oceans. There is only an Understanding and Knowing of how we have gotten to this point and STILL YET refuse to take personal ownership and responsibility.

I told my Understanding and Knowing and what our future holds for us over on Project Avalon and I was mocked and slandered and demeaned and evidently people like you modwiz choose to continue this ridicule . . . . it makes me very sad for you.

[Aragorn]

At this point, I would just like to remind our beloved members not to go ad hominem with one another. Bait was thrown out, and somebody took the bite. Not wise. :hmm:

Let's keep to the topic, shall we?


:group hug: :fire:

[modwiz]

Why modwiz I would have never thought you would want anything in common with Bill Ryan and the rest of the Project Avalon minions. The label of me being an ‘apologist’ was started over on PA by Ryan just before he banned me . . . lol.

It has always been interesting to me since I have been on alternative type forums how when certain people don’t understand me or deliberately try to undermine my intentions they throw out labels that are inaccurate and demeaning.

I am not an apologist . . . if anything I am a realist and a pragmatist. Unlike many in the alternative media world and especially the New Age world I find value and knowledge in all points of view . . . even views I fundamentally do not agree with or accept.

Balance and grace and open heart and open mind . . . always

I few inaccuracies in your post modwiz. If you are shot and killed with a bullet you never hear the gun report. In the very least the sound of the rifle and impact happens simultaneously. There is no time for fear or pain.

Ever shot a gun? I have and own several rifles, shotguns and handguns. I am a very good hunter and harvest at least two deer a year to feed my dog’s raw meat throughout the year until next hunting season. I do my own butchering and processing and freeze the meat in daily sized portions. I never take a shot while hunting unless have a full kill shot. They drop where they are standing.

We do raise the majority of all our food including all our meat. Everything on my farms is raised organically and humanely. All that live on our farm lives in peace, sustainably and synergistically. We do not give thanks and gratitude only at the death of the animal because we give gratitude and thanks and love EVERYDAY we live together.

To just ‘slit’ an animal’s throat and let it bleed to death is utterly inhumane and painful. It is slow and agonizing and they suffer as they no longer receive oxygen throughout their bodies. We do a ‘kill shot’ at an angle to the head (where the head attaches to the spine) with a .243 or .308 if it is a beef or bison . . . their spirit is released instantaneously. Then we cut the throat so the animal will bleed out.

As for the poisoning of our oceans and other waters? I am always amused that somehow (again) the alternative community and New Agers and vegans or vegetarians somehow they feel they have no responsibility for atrocities like the poisoning of the oceans. Every last single person on this planet is responsible or at the very least those who live in ‘first world countries’ are clearly responsible . . . . . . and that includes you and me modwiz. There is no ‘good story’ to the poisoning of the oceans. There is only an Understanding and Knowing of how we have gotten to this point and STILL YET refuse to take personal ownership and responsibility.

I told my Understanding and Knowing and what our future holds for us over on Project Avalon and I was mocked and slandered and demeaned and evidently people like you modwiz choose to continue this ridicule . . . . it makes me very sad for you.

Oh Blufire. It is nothing that cannot be remedied by dialogue and understanding. So let us make that an objective. Generalizations, on anyone's part is definitely part of that path. So tabla raza, sister, and a new start. I'm game. Well, not the kind you shoot.:ttr:

My reliance of anecdotal information might be part of my ignorance on certain subjects. That can be remedied as well.

What part of VA are you in? I am in Floyd. Just curious, not threatening a surprise visit, lol.

[modwiz]

At this point, I would just like to remind our beloved members not to go ad hominem with one another. Bait was thrown out, and somebody took the bite. Not wise. :hmm:

Let's keep to the topic, shall we?


:group hug: :fire:

Yes, that comparison with BR was a low blow. But, I guess when it comes to being a dick, she has a point.:fpalm:

[Aragorn]

Yes, that comparison with BR was a low blow. But, I guess when it comes to being a dick, she has a point.:fpalm:

As they say, it takes two to tango, but there are of course different styles of tango. The one that appeared to be unfolding here didn't have a nice rhythm to it, which is why I felt that I needed to remind people of the correct beat. ;)

[pointessa]

Why modwiz I would have never thought you would want anything in common with Bill Ryan and the rest of the Project Avalon minions. The label of me being an ‘apologist’ was started over on PA by Ryan just before he banned me . . . lol.

It has always been interesting to me since I have been on alternative type forums how when certain people don’t understand me or deliberately try to undermine my intentions they throw out labels that are inaccurate and demeaning.

I am not an apologist . . . if anything I am a realist and a pragmatist. Unlike many in the alternative media world and especially the New Age world I find value and knowledge in all points of view . . . even views I fundamentally do not agree with or accept.

Balance and grace and open heart and open mind . . . always

I few inaccuracies in your post modwiz. If you are shot and killed with a bullet you never hear the gun report. In the very least the sound of the rifle and impact happens simultaneously. There is no time for fear or pain.

Ever shot a gun? I have and own several rifles, shotguns and handguns. I am a very good hunter and harvest at least two deer a year to feed my dog’s raw meat throughout the year until next hunting season. I do my own butchering and processing and freeze the meat in daily sized portions. I never take a shot while hunting unless have a full kill shot. They drop where they are standing.

We do raise the majority of all our food including all our meat. Everything on my farms is raised organically and humanely. All that live on our farm lives in peace, sustainably and synergistically. We do not give thanks and gratitude only at the death of the animal because we give gratitude and thanks and love EVERYDAY we live together.

To just ‘slit’ an animal’s throat and let it bleed to death is utterly inhumane and painful. It is slow and agonizing and they suffer as they no longer receive oxygen throughout their bodies. We do a ‘kill shot’ at an angle to the head (where the head attaches to the spine) with a .243 or .308 if it is a beef or bison . . . their spirit is released instantaneously. Then we cut the throat so the animal will bleed out.

As for the poisoning of our oceans and other waters? I am always amused that somehow (again) the alternative community and New Agers and vegans or vegetarians somehow they feel they have no responsibility for atrocities like the poisoning of the oceans. Every last single person on this planet is responsible or at the very least those who live in ‘first world countries’ are clearly responsible . . . . . . and that includes you and me modwiz. There is no ‘good story’ to the poisoning of the oceans. There is only an Understanding and Knowing of how we have gotten to this point and STILL YET refuse to take personal ownership and responsibility.

I told my Understanding and Knowing and what our future holds for us over on Project Avalon and I was mocked and slandered and demeaned and evidently people like you modwiz choose to continue this ridicule . . . . it makes me very sad for you.

blufire, thank you for a most heartfelt post. I don't eat meat or use animal skins or products because I could not kill one myself. Having said that , I realize I kill all kinds of living things every day. When I garden, or mow my lawn I am killing all sorts of creatures so I don't feel I get to stand in judgement of anyone. No one gets to live on this planet without killing other living things so that they can survive. I actually have respect for someone that is able to hunt their meat in a responsible way, if in fact they are going to eat meat. There is an awareness there that someone can't get by buying a neatly, sanitized chunk of meat at the grocery store.

I believe that those non meat eaters that take a holier than thou approach are stifling communication and negating the benefits that might otherwise have occurred. You are absolutely correct, no one is blameless here, at least no humans are blameless. The systems that we live under are so invasive and so corrupted that if one participates in any of it they are helping to keep it propped up. The part that I have the most problem with is the utter lack of respect shown the animal and plant kingdoms by humans. They are a sort of whipping boy that we can abuse and make profits off of. We ridicule and disrespect them in the media and personify them in ridiculous ways in animated entertainment for children's entertainment. We torture them in factory farms so we can make a little more money off of them. We are collectively sociopathic as a race against all other living things on this planet and for that I am deeply ashamed.

I don't not eat animals because I feel I am righteous and blameless, I don't do it because I just couldn't live with myself. I often wonder what I would do if killing an animal was the only way I could stay alive. To be honest, I am ashamed to be a human. There is nothing I can do to make it alright. I volunteer for multiple animal rescue operations and its not a drop in the bucket. I used to think that doing this would make me feel better, it doesn't. It just shows me the futility of trying to correct this massive imbalance when so few even give a rip.

I just wanted to let you know that I get what you are saying and I have respect for you. Please don't feel that you are not being heard. I am glad that we can have some commonality in our differences.

[Dreamtimer]

Pointessa, don't be ashamed to be a human. Be proud to be a good one. I've no doubt you are. This world is challenging to live in. When you move on you'll hopefully be wiser and will have left a good mark on the world. :unity:

blufire, thanks much for the info regarding throat slitting and the kill shot. I have no personal experience with any of these methods. I very much appreciate the mention of releasing the animals spirit.

[pointessa]

Pointessa, don't be ashamed to be a human. Be proud to be a good one. I've no doubt you are. This world is challenging to live in. When you move on you'll hopefully be wiser and will have left a good mark on the world. :unity:

blufire, thanks much for the info regarding throat slitting and the kill shot. I have no personal experience with any of these methods. I very much appreciate the mention of releasing the animals spirit.


Dreamtimer, I appreciate you taking the time to write an encouraging post. I do tend to fall into hopelessness and fatalism. There are times when I don't feel I can take another breath here. But, your kindness, in this case has had a calming effect for me, for that I express gratitude and thankfulness. You never know when a kind word, a smile, or a bit of conversation can have a major impact on a sad, lost soul.

[Dreamtimer]

"You never know when a kind word, a smile, or a bit of conversation can have a major impact on a sad, lost soul." That's what I taught my son and he took to heart. Thank you.:love:

[Elen]

Dreamtimer, I appreciate you taking the time to write an encouraging post. I do tend to fall into hopelessness and fatalism. There are times when I don't feel I can take another breath here. But, your kindness, in this case has had a calming effect for me, for that I express gratitude and thankfulness. You never know when a kind word, a smile, or a bit of conversation can have a major impact on a sad, lost soul.

Pointessa, I just want to say that with Dreamtimer it is inbuilt because she's a Libra at heart and in reality. They all have the gift of being nice and uplifting, most of the time. Glad you appreciate it too.

[Greenbarry]

i am doing my damdest to start the vegetarian/fruitarian life..
snack on fruit all day and eat a filling salad for dinner.
seems like the life but then the protein comes to mind.
need protein to feed the brain or at least i hear and read about
this.. meat is the best way for this part of the diet.
i try to find recipes for dinners the vegetarian way..
so, it comes down to me not knowing enough about this topic. :whstl:
any good recipe sites ya'll know of? maybe share links?
here is a link, not to recipes, but to Dr. Morse ND and he talks
about fruitarian diets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohb1vf6cSnc

[Greenbarry]

fixed it.. one above for Dr Morse

[modwiz]

I need a carrot.

[Dreamtimer]

Don't you carrot all? (I really can't help myself);)

[modwiz]

Don't you carrot all? (I really can't help myself);)

Twas brilliant and probably got us across the line.

[bsbray]

Twas brilliant and probably got us across the line.

What do you know DreamTimer, your carrot pun may have been post #100,000.

[Joanna]

I've been vegetarian then vegan for (doing math in head) 33 years - since leaving home at 19.
Silently, internally, I was in hell through teen years - after unexpectedly seeing a sheep slaughtered at 12 by two men who wrestled it onto its back on a wooden frame while it bleated and fought to escape, before they cut its throat. I have never forgotten the wall of agony that hit me that day, and proceeded to have recurring dreams through my teens, of being in slaughterhouses holding the faces of cows, trying to comfort them as they were killed.
My family went prawning through the summers, and I would walk along behind on the beach and pick up the hundreds of tiny fish flipping around on the sand left carelessly to die, with tears pouring down my face.
When I tried to go veg at that age, I had no idea of nutrition, and just left off eating the meat, and became protein and iron deficient, so began eating it again, although it never sat right in my heart, while putting up with a fair bit of mockery from family members.
I felt the suffering of life very acutely, human and animal, and still do...but am able to stay in balance much better and far more easily now. It was a long road though, and I am grateful every moment to be able to hold my peace in the midst of a storm of violence. Humans are currently eating 70 billion land animals per year, around 54 billion of which are 'intensively farmed', meaning they live in confinement, deprivation, and mostly with very shortened and often painful lives, before being sent to slaughter.
It is impossible not to kill, while in physical 3D form - every breath we take kills a stack of micro-organisms.
But that is different to intentionally enslaving other living beings in order to eat them, or wear them. The right to own and dictate the lives of other beings is still very ingrained in humanity, and won't change overnight (miracle excepted, which I'm always open to). :)
There's a qualitative difference between having a caring companion relationship with an animal - including those who produce milk and eggs - and using them as a product whose feelings and quality of life don't matter, and discarding their babies as waste byproducts.
In the 1970s my great aunt and uncle had a dairy, where their cows were at least well-treated slaves, and their calves stayed with them and fed at night.
Now, at least in Australia, the majority of calves are taken from their mothers before they're 24 hours old, and 700 000 'bobby calves' are sent to slaughter each year at five days old. They are now legally allowed to be kept 'off food' for 30 hours, and arrive at the slaughterhouse bewildered, dehydrated, often sick and with infections, some unable to walk...when they should be with their mothers by any kind of natural right. But they're seen as the worthless cast-offs of slave animals - who themselves now are considered 'spent' at 4 to 5 years old (a cow naturally lives up to 22) as soon as their milk tapers of maximum yield...and btw, in the 1970s the average cow produced 2800 litres per year, now it's 5400 litres per year.
Callous indifference along with outright cruelty continue to reinforce humanity's 'annexation' to/by some very cold, unloving players in the galactic field, from my point of view.

On the other hand, in the last 33 years, the shift of first vegetarianism, then veganism and even fruitarian diets, into a more mainstream awareness and acceptability, has been profound. In the 1980s I had to go to a specialist health shop to buy tofu or tempeh. Now, there are about eight different kinds on the local supermarket shelves, plus all manner of veggie pre-made dishes, pies etc. There are so many plant-based milks available now, it's incredible. This week I'm drinking Macadamia Milk, and have coconut milk, soy milk and almond milk in the cupboard! This has all changed in only a few years. Wow!
The last two years there's also a lot of organic foods in regular supermarkets, and superfoods like chia seeds, which are now being grown in the north of Western Australia - the climate suits them ideally...and chia is huge in protein, iron, calcium and Omega 3's.
So I'm finding this a really great time to be on this planet as a vegan/fruitarian gradually shifting off the need for physical foods, which is my preferred goal...
Yay :)

[pointessa]

I've been vegetarian then vegan for (doing math in head) 33 years - since leaving home at 19.
Silently, internally, I was in hell through teen years - after unexpectedly seeing a sheep slaughtered at 12 by two men who wrestled it onto its back on a wooden frame while it bleated and fought to escape, before they cut its throat. I have never forgotten the wall of agony that hit me that day, and proceeded to have recurring dreams through my teens, of being in slaughterhouses holding the faces of cows, trying to comfort them as they were killed.
My family went prawning through the summers, and I would walk along behind on the beach and pick up the hundreds of tiny fish flipping around on the sand left carelessly to die, with tears pouring down my face.
When I tried to go veg at that age, I had no idea of nutrition, and just left off eating the meat, and became protein and iron deficient, so began eating it again, although it never sat right in my heart, while putting up with a fair bit of mockery from family members.
I felt the suffering of life very acutely, human and animal, and still do...but am able to stay in balance much better and far more easily now. It was a long road though, and I am grateful every moment to be able to hold my peace in the midst of a storm of violence. Humans are currently eating 70 billion land animals per year, around 54 billion of which are 'intensively farmed', meaning they live in confinement, deprivation, and mostly with very shortened and often painful lives, before being sent to slaughter.
It is impossible not to kill, while in physical 3D form - every breath we take kills a stack of micro-organisms.
But that is different to intentionally enslaving other living beings in order to eat them, or wear them. The right to own and dictate the lives of other beings is still very ingrained in humanity, and won't change overnight (miracle excepted, which I'm always open to). :)
There's a qualitative difference between having a caring companion relationship with an animal - including those who produce milk and eggs - and using them as a product whose feelings and quality of life don't matter, and discarding their babies as waste byproducts.
In the 1970s my great aunt and uncle had a dairy, where their cows were at least well-treated slaves, and their calves stayed with them and fed at night.
Now, at least in Australia, the majority of calves are taken from their mothers before they're 24 hours old, and 700 000 'bobby calves' are sent to slaughter each year at five days old. They are now legally allowed to be kept 'off food' for 30 hours, and arrive at the slaughterhouse bewildered, dehydrated, often sick and with infections, some unable to walk...when they should be with their mothers by any kind of natural right. But they're seen as the worthless cast-offs of slave animals - who themselves now are considered 'spent' at 4 to 5 years old (a cow naturally lives up to 22) as soon as their milk tapers of maximum yield...and btw, in the 1970s the average cow produced 2800 litres per year, now it's 5400 litres per year.
Callous indifference along with outright cruelty continue to reinforce humanity's 'annexation' to/by some very cold, unloving players in the galactic field, from my point of view.

On the other hand, in the last 33 years, the shift of first vegetarianism, then veganism and even fruitarian diets, into a more mainstream awareness and acceptability, has been profound. In the 1980s I had to go to a specialist health shop to buy tofu or tempeh. Now, there are about eight different kinds on the local supermarket shelves, plus all manner of veggie pre-made dishes, pies etc. There are so many plant-based milks available now, it's incredible. This week I'm drinking Macadamia Milk, and have coconut milk, soy milk and almond milk in the cupboard! This has all changed in only a few years. Wow!
The last two years there's also a lot of organic foods in regular supermarkets, and superfoods like chia seeds, which are now being grown in the north of Western Australia - the climate suits them ideally...and chia is huge in protein, iron, calcium and Omega 3's.
So I'm finding this a really great time to be on this planet as a vegan/fruitarian gradually shifting off the need for physical foods, which is my preferred goal...
Yay :)




Once again, Joanna a most thoughtful, and beautiful post! I wish I could figure out a way to feel balanced here. I feel the suffering on this planet all the time, and yet it is such a beautiful place. What a juxtaposition.

If anyone could make the transition to breatharian, I bet it would be you.

[blufire]

Modwiz and all else. I truly wish to have an in depth thoughtful dialogue in topics such as this thread. But I also feel strongly that most will not be able to get the past the ‘labels’ that have been stuck to me over the years.

Are there TOT members out there who can maybe consider another concept other than that we have been ‘fed’ for years? Or that there are other viable views and knowledge out there other than those from a more New Age or current similar groups. I don’t know . . . . my experience is there is not.

We have literally been cultivated for years with concepts (and memes) such as reptilians are evil, there are benevolent aliens that will rescue us and protecting us from the evil aliens, humans are vile and destructive, we should all be vegans and vegetarians, you aren’t spiritual or worthy unless you can live without food (prana), levitate or experience OBE . . . and other.

Posts like this (below) from Joanna’s really troubles me, as well as, the pain I literally feel radiating from pointessa’s posts


So I'm finding this a really great time to be on this planet as a vegan/fruitarian gradually shifting off the need for physical foods, which is my preferred goal...
Yay


Please. Please understand Joanna I am not singling you out or attacking you . . . . . . but I truly do not understand how you can mesh or justify or reason that you want to transition from physical foods when we are physical and organic Beings. It is thoughts/concepts such as this that I feel are destructive and hurtful and setup conflict like that I feel radiating from pointessa.

We are dual natured Beings. We have two (dual) strands of DNA. We naturally swing from one end of our dual nature to the other or many polarize to one end or the other . . . . never finding that elusive Balance.

We are Reptilian on one end of the spectrum and Mammalian on the other end.

Look at our DNA strand model . . . . . it is intertwined with all our genetic codes connecting the two intertwining strands.

When I read posts from Joanna, modwiz, pointessa, and those like Christina (from PA) I see the Mammalian extreme of our DNA. Highly sensitive, highly empathic, visionaries, highly conflicted with concepts like animal slaughter but somehow reject or ignore massive human suffering and death, highly spiritual and earth connected . . etc.

The other end of our genetic makeup is Reptilian. Pragmatic, practical to a fault, black and white, technology minded, they take the mammalian visions and make them real and tangible, they mostly reject religion (all kinds), they are the doers, problem solvers . . . .

Both ends of the spectrum when forced to act together bring conflict, confusion, division, negativity . . . . much how probably many on the forums feel toward me because I tend toward my reptilian nature because the forums (all of them like PA) definitely have a more Mammalian foundation. Just like I (and those like me) react harshly at times to the more mammalian concepts.

But our utmost challenge is to find that elusive Balance between our Dualistic nature. You can wish and pray and hope that somehow this would go away but it will not, it is who we are and it is our legacy. . . . in all its glory and beauty and wonder. Most importantly we NEED the two opposing DNA strands because with both unified we will be able to do wondrous things. We NEED each other.

So we are Mammalian and Reptilian and we need to work ever toward Balancing our tendencies to one end or the other. This is how we will survive and most importantly Thrive during this current cycle we are in.

It all starts with Acceptance and Understanding.

[Joanna]

Modwiz and all else. I truly wish to have an in depth thoughtful dialogue in topics such as this thread. But I also feel strongly that most will not be able to get the past the ‘labels’ that have been stuck to me over the years.

Are there TOT members out there who can maybe consider another concept other than that we have been ‘fed’ for years? Or that there are other viable views and knowledge out there other than those from a more New Age or current similar groups. I don’t know . . . . my experience is there is not.

We have literally been cultivated for years with concepts (and memes) such as reptilians are evil, there are benevolent aliens that will rescue us and protecting us from the evil aliens, humans are vile and destructive, we should all be vegans and vegetarians, you aren’t spiritual or worthy unless you can live without food (prana), levitate or experience OBE . . . and other.

Posts like this (below) from Joanna’s really troubles me, as well as, the pain I literally feel radiating from pointessa’s posts



Please. Please understand Joanna I am not singling you out or attacking you . . . . . . but I truly do not understand how you can mesh or justify or reason that you want to transition from physical foods when we are physical and organic Beings. It is thoughts/concepts such as this that I feel are destructive and hurtful and setup conflict like that I feel radiating from pointessa.

We are dual natured Beings. We have two (dual) strands of DNA. We naturally swing from one end of our dual nature to the other or many polarize to one end or the other . . . . never finding that elusive Balance.

We are Reptilian on one end of the spectrum and Mammalian on the other end.

Look at our DNA strand model . . . . . it is intertwined with all our genetic codes connecting the two intertwining strands.

When I read posts from Joanna, modwiz, pointessa, and those like Christina (from PA) I see the Mammalian extreme of our DNA. Highly sensitive, highly empathic, visionaries, highly conflicted with concepts like animal slaughter but somehow reject or ignore massive human suffering and death, highly spiritual and earth connected . . etc.

The other end of our genetic makeup is Reptilian. Pragmatic, practical to a fault, black and white, technology minded, they take the mammalian visions and make them real and tangible, they mostly reject religion (all kinds), they are the doers, problem solvers . . . .

Both ends of the spectrum when forced to act together bring conflict, confusion, division, negativity . . . . much how probably many on the forums feel toward me because I tend toward my reptilian nature because the forums (all of them like PA) definitely have a more Mammalian foundation. Just like I (and those like me) react harshly at times to the more mammalian concepts.

But our utmost challenge is to find that elusive Balance between our Dualistic nature. You can wish and pray and hope that somehow this would go away but it will not, it is who we are and it is our legacy. . . . in all its glory and beauty and wonder. Most importantly we NEED the two opposing DNA strands because with both unified we will be able to do wondrous things. We NEED each other.

So we are Mammalian and Reptilian and we need to work ever toward Balancing our tendencies to one end or the other. This is how we will survive and most importantly Thrive during this current cycle we are in.

It all starts with Acceptance and Understanding.

Blufire, with respect, in your above comments you are projecting your attachment to polarization onto my words. Nowhere did I say reptilians are evil, humans are vile or unworthy - or not 'spiritual' unless they can live without food, levitate or experience OBE. Balance doesn't have to be elusive...but personally, I'm not so much interested in balancing between dualities, as in encompassing them, as a whole. Wrapping around them.
Do humans do terrible things? Yes. Do they also do wonderful things, and a whole lot else inbetween? Constantly.
You are projecting that if I choose to not eat animals, or to indeed live on prana (or from my point of view, on love) then that is a rejection of humanity, of humanness, made up of mammalian and reptilian strands that have been, conceptually, set against each other.

However, as I don't see or feel humanity as only made up of those two groups, but of others also, and I see DNA as not fixed but in potential expansion (and there have been, by the way, babies born already with three strands of DNA; I cited one on a thread at TOT somewhere about a little boy born in Manchester with three DNA strands a few years ago)...so I don't view through the same fixity as you, and the Mammal versus Reptile idea isn't so relevant to me.
My life experiences are that there are both loving ET beings and also those of a controlling, cold mentality, who are both involved with humans on Earth at the current time...and I see which group enslaving and killing other living beings reinforces the connection to, moreso in circumstances where we don't need to do so for survival, and I choose not to engage in this because it doesn't resonate inside my being. I have never said, and would never say, that those who do choose to eat flesh are 'unworthy', and do have a lot of love and care for humanity. It's not an either/or animals v humans to me, it's all one family. I love them all.

You don't know me well, and when you polarize mammalian v reptilian in the way you are, and see me (or others) at one end of the pole, you've just put on me a lot of assumptions. So for the record, I have encountered what would be called 'ascended' reptilians, and though I cannot in truth say they are the majority of those beings - especially the ones engaging Earth right now - they do, in my view, exist, and I'm not here to make blanket statements about whole races of beings, which is a dangerous and distorting road to go down.
In terms of 'reflected types' in Earth species - well, turtles and tortoises happen to be a very ancient branch of reptiles, and the giant tortoises who live hundreds of years grazing on grass are as gentle and peaceful as it gets! I have friendly large lizards here in the garden called Blue Tongues (or Stumpytails) who are omnivores, and one comes to my door to be handfed pieces of banana. Blue Tongues are territorial and I'm very happy to have them around, as they drive off snakes - and as the three varieties we have here are all deadly poisonous, that's a good thing! So that is quite a range, within the reptile families, and I see the same range and more, from a galactic perspective.

About the fixity and dualization of two strand DNA, I follow my own guidance on this, and see our genetic make-up and action as far more subtle and pliable than this...because I also look into the RNA strands - which are interacting with DNA, as transcribers, replicators, messengers. And RNA actually can do everything that DNA does, but as a single strand, not two. An RNA strand can combine in a helix with DNA, or it can curve back on itself and twine/helix with itself. DNA developed as a fixed lattice to hold the codes in a stable form, whereas the RNA is instable, but pliable, and mutable, and it shifts the codes. And when you add in the tagging of DNA strands by the epigenomes (and protein molecules) then you have a very intricate picture to work with, and one that is full of possibilities and potentials for what I would call, Encompassing.
Which does take acceptance and understanding, I totally agree. :)

"I truly do not understand how you can mesh or justify or reason that you want to transition from physical foods when we are physical and organic Beings. It is thoughts/concepts such as this that I feel are destructive and hurtful and setup conflict..."

Blufire, this is coming from your sense of feeling threatened or rejected. I don't have to justify transitioning from physical foods. In my reality, we are so much more than physical beings, so much more....and actually, I cherish my/our physicality, being here in a body. I listen to my body very closely. If it asks for a particular herb or flower from the garden, I give it to it. If it asks for more or less, I give it. There is no force, and no controlling...just listening, feeling the changes taking place, and adjusting to them, being flexible...being very RNA, haha. I do this because it makes my heart sing - and that is my compass, for living in peace and happiness, in the midst of a turbulent world.
Does that not seem acceptable to you?



How you or anyone else chooses to evolve is completely up to you...and I will always say, go with what feels right inside you.

[Joanna]

Once again, Joanna a most thoughtful, and beautiful post! I wish I could figure out a way to feel balanced here. I feel the suffering on this planet all the time, and yet it is such a beautiful place. What a juxtaposition.

If anyone could make the transition to breatharian, I bet it would be you.

Thanks pointessa, yes it's a huge juxtaposition, and I hope you can figure out the way for you to feel balanced in the midst of it too.
At a younger age, the way I dealt with the sort of 'ongoing shock' to psyche and emotions of feeling the suffering, as you also do, was by transmuting it into beauty and serenity through art and then writing. The last few years I went through an inner change into a place of peace, which I choose to maintain...because it feels happier, steadier ...and I can create and help more effectively, I feel, from that state.
This transition - which so far seems to go in a bit of an ebb and flow - is based in gentle self-trust, and that in itself can be a great healing, right? There's almost always more than one layer in 'why' we do things...
:) :love:

[modwiz]

Joanna you have added some beautiful and well thought out posts to this thread. Thank you for your generosity of words and spirit.

[Joanna]

Joanna you have added some beautiful and well thought out posts to this thread. Thank you for your generosity of words and spirit.

Thank you too, modwiz Radagast! It's grand to have the Istari on the ground in this Middle Earth, as we find our way through the woods. ;) :wiz:

[Aianawa]

While reading I remembered remembering that somehow huge populations back in history appeared to need little food, they mostly appeared to be sun cults/believers/religeons. Now when one researches sun gazing, they will find little need for much food as such as one becomes sun gazing applied.

[modwiz]

Modwiz and all else. I truly wish to have an in depth thoughtful dialogue in topics such as this thread. But I also feel strongly that most will not be able to get the past the ‘labels’ that have been stuck to me over the years.

Are there TOT members out there who can maybe consider another concept other than that we have been ‘fed’ for years? Or that there are other viable views and knowledge out there other than those from a more New Age or current similar groups. I don’t know . . . . my experience is there is not.

We have literally been cultivated for years with concepts (and memes) such as reptilians are evil, there are benevolent aliens that will rescue us and protecting us from the evil aliens, humans are vile and destructive, we should all be vegans and vegetarians, you aren’t spiritual or worthy unless you can live without food (prana), levitate or experience OBE . . . and other.

Posts like this (below) from Joanna’s really troubles me, as well as, the pain I literally feel radiating from pointessa’s posts



Please. Please understand Joanna I am not singling you out or attacking you . . . . . . but I truly do not understand how you can mesh or justify or reason that you want to transition from physical foods when we are physical and organic Beings. It is thoughts/concepts such as this that I feel are destructive and hurtful and setup conflict like that I feel radiating from pointessa.

We are dual natured Beings. We have two (dual) strands of DNA. We naturally swing from one end of our dual nature to the other or many polarize to one end or the other . . . . never finding that elusive Balance.

We are Reptilian on one end of the spectrum and Mammalian on the other end.

Look at our DNA strand model . . . . . it is intertwined with all our genetic codes connecting the two intertwining strands.

When I read posts from Joanna, modwiz, pointessa, and those like Christina (from PA) I see the Mammalian extreme of our DNA. Highly sensitive, highly empathic, visionaries, highly conflicted with concepts like animal slaughter but somehow reject or ignore massive human suffering and death, highly spiritual and earth connected . . etc.

The other end of our genetic makeup is Reptilian. Pragmatic, practical to a fault, black and white, technology minded, they take the mammalian visions and make them real and tangible, they mostly reject religion (all kinds), they are the doers, problem solvers . . . .

Both ends of the spectrum when forced to act together bring conflict, confusion, division, negativity . . . . much how probably many on the forums feel toward me because I tend toward my reptilian nature because the forums (all of them like PA) definitely have a more Mammalian foundation. Just like I (and those like me) react harshly at times to the more mammalian concepts.

But our utmost challenge is to find that elusive Balance between our Dualistic nature. You can wish and pray and hope that somehow this would go away but it will not, it is who we are and it is our legacy. . . . in all its glory and beauty and wonder. Most importantly we NEED the two opposing DNA strands because with both unified we will be able to do wondrous things. We NEED each other.

So we are Mammalian and Reptilian and we need to work ever toward Balancing our tendencies to one end or the other. This is how we will survive and most importantly Thrive during this current cycle we are in.

It all starts with Acceptance and Understanding.


I no longer hold old ideas and have moved on. I mentioned that in an earlier post. I extended an olive branch by saying let us clear the slate and begin anew. So say what you wish as if we have never exchanged ideas before. Speak your truth and I will listen without judgement. Perhaps without comment either if I disagree on some point. I am done with a war of words.

I also asked where in Virginia you are located as well as leaving a message on your profile page stating that contention is over and the past will stay there. In so many, or less, words.

[Joanna]

While reading I remembered remembering that somehow huge populations back in history appeared to need little food, they mostly appeared to be sun cults/believers/religeons. Now when one researches sun gazing, they will find little need for much food as such as one becomes sun gazing applied.

Hello Aianawa, I meant to reply to this. Yes, I believe sun gazing for nourishment and healing has been around a long while, as has pranic breathing, in the yogic tradition. Living on light and breath isn't new. :)
Personally, I enjoy working with visualization creations within my 'Inner Heart' as a landscape, a visualized inner realm, and in that place is everything in the universes, into infinity, and that includes all nourishment...it's basically living in your own Love, living inside it, and letting your reality radiate outward from that place.
I have found that the 'need' for material foods that I used to have has gradually faded away, and I love this feeling of freedom. In the first instance, I didn't actually make a decision to go off foods and drinks, I just didn't feel hungry any more, and felt an enormous sense of peace and well-being, and nourishment, and still do. At the moment, I still eat and drink, although it varies quite a bit, and I feel that part of it is habitual - as in at present it is winter here (2C yesterday morning) and it's like an old subconscious programme says, 'It's winter, you need to eat more.' But then when I do eat, I very quickly feel full, and have to consciously remember to eat very small amounts, otherwise my body lets me know it's not comfortable, and I feel overfull for hours!
So it's kind of a flexible process, of being highly in tune with your body, through being in tune with how it is completely unified as an extension of you soul and mind. I feel this whole journey as an act of love, ever deepening...and I think you will understand what that means.... :love:

[Aianawa]

Nice nice, yes. I also remember the hugeness of this Gem, Eat As You Breathe . In the later Ringing Cedars books was this Gem, good to ponder upon.

[blufire]

......

I think this is a very fair and balanced article about vegan/vegetarian diets. Of course the headline catches your attention because it is negative and inflammatory but toward the end of the article it addresses the malnutrition problems of raising infants on a vegan/vegetarian diet and what parents can do to address those problems.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/


An Italian baby raised on a vegan diet is hospitalized for severe malnutrition and removed from parents

By Mary Hui
July 11 at 4:44 AM

When an Italian baby was taken to hospital in Milan earlier this month by his grandparents, doctors there were shocked by the baby’s condition. At 14 months old, he weighed only slightly more than a 3-month-old, according to the Local Italy.

Upon further examination, a more harrowing picture began to take shape. The baby, whose parents allegedly kept him on a vegan diet without providing dietary supplements, was found to be severely malnourished, suffering from dangerously low calcium levels. Complicating matters, the baby had to undergo an emergency operation because of a congenital heart condition, which was aggravated by his low calcium levels.

The Local reported that hospital staff reported the case to social services and that the baby’s parents have lost the custodial rights to their child.

The case “forces us to reflect on uncommon feeding regimes,” Luca Bernardo, director of pediatrics at the hospital, told the Daily Telegraph.

He was careful not to take sides on the issue of what constitutes an optimal diet for a baby, however. “It is not a problem to choose different or unusual kinds of nutrition, and we certainly do not want to enter into a discussion of the merits of the decision. But since birth, the baby should have had support in this case with calcium and iron,” Bernardo said.

In recent months, Italy has seen multiple cases of children on vegan diets being hospitalized for malnutrition. In June, a 2-year-old girl was brought to a hospital in Genoa, where she spent several days in intensive care after doctors found her to be suffering from vitamin deficiencies and low levels of hemoglobin. And last June, an 11-month-old baby, whose parents are vegans, was treated for severe malnutrition at a hospital in Florence

Similar cases have played out in other countries as well. In 2007, a vegan couple were given life sentences after their 6-week-old baby boy died of starvation in 2004. They had fed the baby a diet of mainly soy milk and apple juice, and a jury found the couple guilty of murder, manslaughter and cruelty to children. And in 2011, a French vegan couple were charged with child neglect after their 11-month-old baby died from vitamin deficiencies.

It’s not necessarily the case that veganism leads to malnourished young children, of course, as a 2007 op-ed in the New York Times titled “Death by Veganism” seemed to suggest, drawing a furious reaction from some vegans, including articles with such titles as “Veganism is Not Child Abuse.”

“Holy guacamole — can we all just stop the madness when it comes to ill-informed journalists claiming that vegan diets harm/kill babies?!” said a broadside in the Your Daily Vegan. “Every year or so, an article enters the world with inflammatory headlines and content about how dangerous a vegan diet can be for infants and children.”

As an article in the Spectator last year argued, it isn’t veganism that harms children — it’s neglectful parenting. Veganism, if done right, can give kids all the nutrients they need for healthy growth, experts say.

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics agrees that “well-planned vegetarian and eating patterns are healthy for infants and toddlers,” according to its publication, “Eat Right.” For breast-feeding mothers and for infants who don’t consume milk products and eggs, it recommends supplements or fortified foods for vitamins B12, vitamin D, calcium and iron and advises parents to consult a dietitian.
Britain’s National Health Service makes similar recommendations.

“It’s not a problem if parents want to raise their children using alternative or even unusual diets,” the hospital’s head pediatrician told the Corriere, the Local reported.
“But care needs to be taken to make up for any nutritional shortfalls using supplements. For example, the 1-year-old child we are treating should have been taking iron and calcium supplements.”
As Slate’s parenting advice columnist put it: “Can kids be vegan and be healthy? Of course they can. Fruits, vegetables, and whole grains are undoubtedly good for growing bodies, and research even suggests an association between veganism and a reduced risk for cancer.”

But there’s a caveat: Veganism requires a lot of extra work. Parents and caregivers, the Slate columnist writes, “have to ensure that their children are getting the calories and wide variety of nutrients they need — not a small feat when dealing with typically fussy, food-neophobic kids.”

[Joanna]

......

I think this is a very fair and balanced article about vegan/vegetarian diets. Of course the headline catches your attention because it is negative and inflammatory but toward the end of the article it addresses the malnutrition problems of raising infants on a vegan/vegetarian diet and what parents can do to address those problems.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/

[B]

It's good to see at the end of the article that malnutrition isn't being touted as an inevitable or natural consequence of a vegan diet...which is a myth, and fear-mongering.

I raised my son vegetarian, in a household with three other boys who were raised vegan. They are now fit/ healthy young men - one is a manual worker, and two of them surf and play football, which is far from the stereotype of 'feed your man meat or he'll be a weakling' that is promoted through MSM in this country.

It's true you need to now what you're doing to raise vegan kids, which takes a certain level of commitment. Protein, iron and calcium are not hard to come by in a veggie diet, and many people do not realise that the human body can only absorb about 30% of the calcium in dairy milk, and about 60% of the calcium in brussels sprouts, for instance. Many also don't know the finer points of nutrient absorption - and that iron is only absorbed by the human body in the presence of vitamin C...so you should add tomatoes or citrus to your spinach or kale salad.
Supplements also need to be used with care. It's a good idea for vegans to include kelp or some other form of seaweed in their diet for iodine, yet too much kelp can cause iodine poisoning, so you do have to pay attention to what you're doing.
It's also not widely known that the phytites in soy products are taken up by the same receptors in the body as zinc, and eating both at the same time can inhibit zinc absorption, and zinc is very important for the immune and endocrine systems.

When the friend I houseshared with and I were raising our boys, we kept a big chart on the kitchen wall (I think it came from the Vegetarian Society of Australia) which showed what nutrients are in different foods and how to match them for the best absorption. That took the guesswork out of our cooking and kept it easy, and after a while I remembered it all, and it becomes second nature. Going veggie, then vegan, greatly increased my understanding of not only fundamental nutrition/nutrients, but also how they are absorbed, which is the other part of the equation for good health, no matter what diet you have.

Childhood obesity has increased enormously in Australia in the last decade. Their bodies are basically starving for want of nutrients that can't be attained from the poor quality junk foods they live on, so they're always hungry, their bodies tell them to eat more and more to try and gain the necessary nutrition that is lacking, and they get enormous while starving.
If one was to see a statistical breakdown, I suspect there are a far higher percentage of people living on 'mainstream diets' than vegan diets who are malnourished and at high risk of heart disease/cancer/diabetes etc than vegans, because people who become vegan generally take an interest in health and well-being, and quite a lot of mainstream folk don't. But it is true that some unlearning and new learning about nutrition is required for veganism. It's not rocket science though, and plenty of vegan diet support and planning can be found online these days, so it's easier than it's ever been (for eg; PETA has free vegan starter kits and dietary planners that cover essential nutrition for newbies).
I really appreciate being able to go out to a restaurant and order a beautiful vegan dish these days. We went to one of Perth's more expensive restaurants for my son's 18th birthday, and they have an entire vegan menu now, and their truffle risotto and vegan 'cheesecake' were awesome! The times are a-changing....

Anyway, each to their own. It's up to everyone to decide what sits right for them...and if anything is forced on self or others, it tends to backfire. ;)

[blufire]

I no longer hold old ideas and have moved on. I mentioned that in an earlier post. I extended an olive branch by saying let us clear the slate and begin anew. So say what you wish as if we have never exchanged ideas before. Speak your truth and I will listen without judgement. Perhaps without comment either if I disagree on some point. I am done with a war of words.

I also asked where in Virginia you are located as well as leaving a message on your profile page stating that contention is over and the past will stay there. In so many, or less, words.


I agree and am more than willing to let our ‘old history’ go . . . . and we do go back a ways . . . .and begin fresh and anew and build healthier foundations to build from.

((((((((( blufire spits in her hand and extends to modwiz to shake on it ))))))))) This is what Appalachian folk do to seal the deal :welcoming:

Although I am not particularly comfortable in divulging where I live. Last time I did that when I lived in Kansas I had a bunch of strange folks appear on my doorstep.

I will say I am about as far west as you can get in Virginia without getting into Kentucky, on a mountain ridge, back in the middle of freakn’ nowhere and surrounded by paradise.

I know where Floyd is and have been there many times. It is a great little town and they have taken hold of the tourism industry in southwest Virginia and made it their own. I will let you know the next time I venture that way.

[Dreamtimer]

I have friends down in that corner of VA. Doesn't seem like it would be far but it's more than three hours to Richmond from here. It used to take us seven hours to get to the Outer Banks.
Is that part of Virginia friendly to vegetarians? I know some people who think not eating meat is unAmerican.

[modwiz]

I have friends down in that corner of VA. Doesn't seem like it would be far but it's more than three hours to Richmond from here. It used to take us seven hours to get to the Outer Banks.
Is that part of Virginia friendly to vegetarians? I know some people who think not eating meat is unAmerican.

Yes, there a more than a few vegetarians here in Floyd. The country store regularly serves an excellent veggie chile and they have hummus wraps that I also enjoy. The Mexican restaurant hase several veggie combos and I have a health food store a half a mile from me and a fair amount of or organic food in the supermarket. It's not quite as much variety as Woodstock was but, I am doing fine and like the people better.

I have been digging up part of the lawn in my back yard to plant some things to eat. A friend is already giving us stuff from his garden. I had some refreshing cucumber juice the other day and put the zucchini in my pasta. Oh yes, fresh kale from him too.

So, vegetarians are not looked at strangely. We are accepted and provided for.


I agree and am more than willing to let our ‘old history’ go . . . . and we do go back a ways . . . .and begin fresh and anew and build healthier foundations to build from.

((((((((( blufire spits in her hand and extends to modwiz to shake on it ))))))))) This is what Appalachian folk do to seal the deal :welcoming:

Although I am not particularly comfortable in divulging where I live. Last time I did that when I lived in Kansas I had a bunch of strange folks appear on my doorstep.

I will say I am about as far west as you can get in Virginia without getting into Kentucky, on a mountain ridge, back in the middle of freakn’ nowhere and surrounded by paradise.

I know where Floyd is and have been there many times. It is a great little town and they have taken hold of the tourism industry in southwest Virginia and made it their own. I will let you know the next time I venture that way.

Thanks for the acceptance. Spit and all. No need to reveal where you are. The general area suffices. It was curiosity and not travel plans.:p

[blufire]

I have friends down in that corner of VA. Doesn't seem like it would be far but it's more than three hours to Richmond from here. It used to take us seven hours to get to the Outer Banks.
Is that part of Virginia friendly to vegetarians? I know some people who think not eating meat is unAmerican.

Where I live most don’t understand (or care about) the terms vegetarians and vegans because they would just look at you with confusion.

Because they have been eating from the garden and their orchards and woods (plants, mushrooms, berries) for generations.

In the summer we eat almost solely from the garden and what is in seasonal harvest. In the winter we eat canned/frozen food from the garden and more meat then. I also have fresh greens and root crops almost year round from my 'high tunnels'. I eat little meat through the summer largely because of the bounty of fresh garden and wild crafted foods and because with the amount of work I do outside in hot humid weather I prefer the lighter foods.

The last several months I have been eating fresh green beans with new potatoes, sautéed swiss chard and kale, fried green tomatoes with cornbread almost every night for dinner. Fresh butter and yogurts and cheese from my dairy cows. I also always have ‘cold soup’ available in the fridge made from tomatoes, cucumber, green and colored peppers, onion, garlic and raw sweet corn. (all from the garden) I am not alone . . . most tables have these same meals

So yes we are vegetarian friendly because we largely are vegetarian . . . .by our lifestyle and because we homestead not by moral decision or fad.

Of course, (like everywhere) you have those, who for some reason, don’t think you have had a meal unless it contains meat.

[Dreamtimer]

You're making me hungry for all that stuff, blufire. :garden:

[blufire]

You're making me hungry for all that stuff, blufire. :garden:

come on over and sit a spell. . .;)

[Dreamtimer]

This is more like a documentary than a speech.

Having just seen Alex Honnold in his movie Free Solo, I watched some videos about him and his climbing life. He's vegetarian.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncDFDz9k35o