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scibuster
26th November 2015, 06:16
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUZOZN-9dc

I will not step in such a direction that Jesus has never existed but below I stated my relationship to Jesus:







Jesus war nicht Gottes Sohn.
Jesus wurde nicht von einer Jungfrau geboren.
Zu seiner Geburt kamen keine drei Könige angerannt.
Jesus hat eine Tischler-Lehre gemacht.
Jesus hat Stühle und Tische gebaut die schnell kaputt gegangen sind.
Deshalb haben sie ihn aus dem Dorf gejagt.
Da hat er eine Sekte gegründet.
Er konnte keine Wunder tun.
Er konnte keine Toten aufwecken.
Lazarus hatte nur ein Lock-in-Syndrom.
Er konnte nicht über das Wasser laufen.
Aber er konnte gut reden.
Er hat viel mit den Pharisäern gestritten.
Er hat sich bei der Obrigkeit unbeliebt gemacht.
Er hat eine große Fresse gegen Pilatus gehabt.
Der hat ihn deshalb nicht begnadigt.
Kreuzigungen waren zur Römerszeit gang und gebe.
Die Römer haben an einem Nachmittag 1000 Kreuzigungen an den römischen Marschierstraßen aufgestellt.
Ich war bei der Kreuzigung von Jesus nicht dabei, deshalb enthalte ich mich mit meiner Aussage.
Jesus ist nicht nach drei Tagen auferstanden.
Das Grab war leer.
Wer den Leichnam weggeschleppt hat weiß ich nicht.
Jesus konnte nicht der Schwerkraft trotzen und in den Himmel auffahren ohne Equipment.
Warum aus seinen 12 Anhängern bis heute 1 Milliarde wurden ist mir unerklärlich.

bsbray
26th November 2015, 06:45
This video explains the situation well enough as I've come to understand it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50


The movie "Zeitgeist" has some similar information. When I first came across it I was skeptical, as I'd never heard these claims for other deities such as Horus, Attis, Mithra, etc. But I did a lot of digging and sure enough, all of this information checks out, even verified by early church fathers who made up excuses such as that Satan invented these earlier deities to make people doubt Jesus in later times.

Two old books now in public domain that I will recommend to anyone interested in this, are Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning by Edward Carpenter, from 1921, and Pagan Christs: Studies in Comparative Hierology by John M. Robertson, from 1911.

Here are links to these two books online:
Pagan and Christian Creeds: Their Origin and Meaning (https://archive.org/details/paganchristiancr00carp)
Pagan Christs: Studies in Comparative Hierology (https://archive.org/details/paganchristsstud00robe)

The long and short of it is that if you believe in Jesus, you might as well believe in Horus, Mithra, Attis, Hésus, Krishna, and a laundry list of other ancient deities from various cultures, because they all have the same basic story going on and the same quality of historical evidence. Even the name "Jesus" appears to be from the same etymological root as "Hésus" (a Gaulish deity that was the human incarnation of a triune god), "deus" (Latin for "god") and "Zeus" (Greek), though the "real" Jewish name of Jesus would have been closer to "Yeshua" which is the same name in Hebrew as what we render in English as "Joshua." Joshua, or Yehoshu'a (יְהוֹשֻׁעַ) is literally translated as "Yahweh is salvation." So even by the official story, this guy's whole name (Jesus Christ) translates as "Yahweh is salvation the annointed one."

I have a similar thread with information on Hésus here: Introducing Hésus, the Ancient Celtic Version of Jesus That You Probably Never Heard Of (http://jandeane81.com/threads/6800-Introducing-H%C3%A9sus-the-Ancient-Celtic-Version-of-Jesus-That-You-Probably-Never-Heard-Of?highlight=jesus+gaulish)

The One
26th November 2015, 07:42
Jesus war nicht Gottes Sohn.
Jesus wurde nicht von einer Jungfrau geboren.
Zu seiner Geburt kamen keine drei Könige angerannt.
Jesus hat eine Tischler-Lehre gemacht.
Jesus hat Stühle und Tische gebaut die schnell kaputt gegangen sind.
Deshalb haben sie ihn aus dem Dorf gejagt.
Da hat er eine Sekte gegründet.
Er konnte keine Wunder tun.
Er konnte keine Toten aufwecken.
Lazarus hatte nur ein Lock-in-Syndrom.
Er konnte nicht über das Wasser laufen.
Aber er konnte gut reden.
Er hat viel mit den Pharisäern gestritten.
Er hat sich bei der Obrigkeit unbeliebt gemacht.
Er hat eine große Fresse gegen Pilatus gehabt.
Der hat ihn deshalb nicht begnadigt.
Kreuzigungen waren zur Römerszeit gang und gebe.
Die Römer haben an einem Nachmittag 1000 Kreuzigungen an den römischen Marschierstraßen aufgestellt.
Ich war bei der Kreuzigung von Jesus nicht dabei, deshalb enthalte ich mich mit meiner Aussage.
Jesus ist nicht nach drei Tagen auferstanden.
Das Grab war leer.
Wer den Leichnam weggeschleppt hat weiß ich nicht.
Jesus konnte nicht der Schwerkraft trotzen und in den Himmel auffahren ohne Equipment.
Warum aus seinen 12 Anhängern bis heute 1 Milliarde wurden ist mir unerklärlich.


Translates to English below

Jesus was not the Son of God.
Jesus was not born of a virgin.
At his birth no three kings came running.
Jesus made a carpentry apprenticeship.
Jesus has built tables and chairs have gone quickly broken.
That's why they chased him out of the village.
He has founded a sect.
He could do no miracles.
He could not wake the dead.
Lazarus had only one lock-in syndrome.
He could not walk across the water.
But he could talk.
He has quarreled much with the Pharisees.
He has made himself unpopular with the authorities.
He had a large face against Pilate.
The reason has not been pardoned.
Crucifixions were going to the Roman period and giving.
The Romans erected one afternoon in 1000 at the Roman crucifixions Marschierstraßen.
I was not there at the crucifixion of Jesus, so I am abstaining with my statement.
Jesus was not resurrected after three days.
The grave was empty.
Who dragged the body I do not know.
Jesus could not defy gravity and ascend to heaven without equipment.
Why were from his 12 followers until today 1 billion is inexplicable to me

Dreamtimer
26th November 2015, 12:57
Bsbray, I've never seen that video. Thank you for posting it. I've read a little about the similarities to Sun God worship. I wasn't aware how deep the parallels to Egyptian religion ran. I'll check out the books.

Scibuster, your video is next. Thanks for sharing your own views.

Thanks for the translation The One.

Divine Feminine
26th November 2015, 14:33
Whenever considering another researchers material I think it's important to investigate the researcher to see if they have an agenda. My question was soon addressed less than a minute into the video as Richard Carrier is an active Atheist. Though I have not watch all the video, I will later. I think it's also important to post the opposing comments to what Richard Carrier is saying as I think they're just as interesting. I'd love to comment more, but no time....maybe later.

Jesus Did Exist: A Response to Richard Carrier
http://www.strangenotions.com/jesus-did-exist/#

"I would like to provide responses to the arguments and evidence that Richard Carrier offers to rebut my argument that Jesus existed. This task is complicated because, in his response to my original piece, Carrier says a surprisingly small amount that engages my argument and a large amount that does not.

Approximately half of his piece is devoted to other matters:

running through the names of people who agree with him in varying degrees
recommending books
expressing hope for the fortunes of his thesis in future decades
plugging his forthcoming book
acknowledging the mistakes of fact and argument made by others who hold that Jesus never existed
discussing the goal of his own research.

Stating Your Position is Not an Argument

In the part of his post that does respond to the original piece, Carrier does not interact very directly with its argument. Instead, he makes a series of alternative assertions that state his own view.

His view does disagree with mine, but stating your own view is not the same thing as providing evidence in favor of it. Much less is it the same thing as providing evidence against the view you are responding to.

Carrier’s goal in the post does not seem to be so much responding to the original argument as “giv[ing] you an idea of where this new approach to Christian origins is coming from”—that is, sketching an outline of his own view."

The Jesus Myth? A Response to Richard Carrier (Part 1)
http://ratiochristi.org/uncg/blog/post/the-jesus-myth-a-response-to-richard-carrier-part-1#.VlclDb9l_mw


Dr. Richard Carrier, PhD – A creepy, dishonest hypocrite
Holy smokes! Haven't read all of this, but kinda interesting...
https://theyetisroar.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/dr-richard-carrier-phd-a-creepy-dishonest-hypocrite/


This is just basic digging, might be more on this guy. When reading articles, check out the comments too, I've often found very interesting remarks, sometimes better than the story itself!

Joanna
26th November 2015, 15:05
Greek 'Christos'/Kristos (meaning 'anointed') has its roots in Sanskrit Krsna (Krishna) - Krishna was a cowherd, Jesus the good shepherd.
There were so many sacrificial 'gods', and most of the symbolism of Christianity comes from Celtic/Germanic/Norse pagan seasonal gods of sacrifice rites. Easter comes from the word Oestre - the goddess of fertility (oestregen comes from that word) - hence the symbols of eggs and rabbits, for conception and birth, then Christian rebirth/resurrection.
The burning of the Yule log came from the Norse ritual of welcoming the return/rebirth of the Sun (=birth of the Son) after the shortest day on Dec 22. The tradition of decorating the Christmas pudding with holly comes from the pagan ritual sacrifice of the Holly King at Midwinter. At Midsummer the Oak King was sacrificed, to bring fertility and bountiful harvest, then at winter the Holly King was sacrificed to renew the land with his blood and bring the new Spring. The red berries of the holly represented the god's spilled drops of blood....
The symbolism was completely merged by the Middle Ages, as can be seen for example in the tapestry below, 'Sight' from the Lady and the Unicorn suite in the Musee de Cluny in Paris (woven 1500 CE). Mary and Jesus are represented by the Lady and the Unicorn, whose 'reflection' is contained in the mirror in the lady's hand, 'the mirror unblemished', meaning Mary's purity. The two trees behind them are an Oak on the left and a Holly on the right, tying the Unicorn-Jesus (and the ensuing hunt of the unicorn) in with the tradition of the summer and winter sacrificial gods whose blood brings renewal to the land and good harvest.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2014/01/10/arts/10UNICORN/10UNICORN-blog480.jpg

bsbray, it is indeed a long laundry list. I embrace them all.... ;)

That Jesus - or any of the deities who came before him - forms part of a tradition, a recurring energy of sacrifice and resurrection, doesn't mean those souls don't exist...

scibuster
26th November 2015, 17:54
In every third sandal movie Jesus is acting.
So Hollywood is happy of his ancient being.

including or excluding The Life of Brian

Chester
27th November 2015, 19:56
PLEASE READ MY Signature before reading my post.

I make odds that Jesus existed about as high as the odds that I am the reincarnation of Horus.

I was in Timberlawn Psychiatric Hospital in 1979/1980. I was there because my family believed I was living "self-destructively" as a response to my father's suicide on June 26, 1979.

While I was there on a unit of about 45 people, there were 3 there all at the same time who believed they were the reincarnation of Jesus. They all seemed to emulate the savior complex. What I now know of the "living/dying/resurrecting God-Man myth" I sense that this "savior" dynamic is entrenched in the collective psyche of much of the western world and perhaps the world as a whole, but definitely in the west.

There is no evidence there was any "Jesus." There is lots of evidence that all sorts of societies who also show a desire to control their masses tap into this "savior" meme and make mythical stories which they then hand to the masses who follow "the Good Shepard" as all good "sheeple" tend to do.

The "new age jeshua" is just a contemporary version of this same scam.

Wake up folks... what "god" would create you such that you need any savior? Even if you had my view (the view we created us), the last thing I would need is someone to rescue me from the messes I am responsible for creating. If I fall for this, I am a minion if self deluded narcissism.

Bhhhaaaaaaaa, Bhhhhhaaaaaa.


PLEASE READ MY Signature...

enjoy being
27th November 2015, 20:58
Contradiction and duality. It is this sort of extravagance in topic that acts as one of the many knots in a net that has the group psyche confined to repeating yesterdays crossword and thinking it is today's. Distract, divide, dumbfound, detain.

Meanwhile back at the Bat-cave, an evil plan has been sprung and there is no sign of any men in tights and over shorts to set things even. The base has been infiltrated by truant jellybeans and coffee table stories.

hughe
28th November 2015, 00:46
Everything is upside down.

I try not to chase superficial words and theories that hardly provide objective truth I can physically touch. I prefer real science that explain the past with physical evidence and records left in the past. The problem is conventional science is far from science, it's close to corrupted religious belief system that has little connection to mankind or Nature. I look at religion as elaborated form of metaphysics.

Subjective truth requires personal faith and entertainment side that last forever.

@Joanna

Which sun are they talking about? The first Sun, supposedly Proto Saturn or the second sun after present solar system was formed.
Many EU (Electric Universe) folks believe in the ancients, who had lived before the great cataclysmic event, had different solar system. Earth, Mars, and Venus were the moons of the first Sun. Proto Saturn's system moved into the solar system, created a lot of celestial actions till the new system stabilized.

The burning of the Yule log came from the Norse ritual of welcoming the return/rebirth of the Sun (=birth of the Son) after the shortest day on Dec 22. The tradition of decorating the Christmas pudding with holly comes from the pagan ritual sacrifice of the Holly King at Midwinter. At Midsummer the Oak King was sacrificed, to bring fertility and bountiful harvest, then at winter the Holly King was sacrificed to renew the land with his blood and bring the new Spring. The red berries of the holly represented the god's spilled drops of blood....

@Sam Hunter

I hear your agonizing voice loudly. When would general public remove all manufactured heros and god figures? I think that's the beginning of new world. I doubt that mankind has ever controlled over Earth, rather been served, manipulated as subservient species by non-human entities. Who are they is irrelevant matter IMHO. As long as people worship, being wasted, used by them as proxy agents to fulfill their agendas, humanity would never be free.

There are outstanding facts of direct manipulation of mankind both physical and spiritual levels. Fur is amazing heat control device animals have developed over millions years. I wish I have thick fur like birds that I could enjoy winter without external heat source. Natural evolution must preserve beneficial features of species.

Another example is why most humans have empty memory of past lives? Advanced computers started to carry on previous memories through cloning, migration technology. It just took few decades for humans to create reliable information system. Considering mankind's biological age, it does not make sense. Loosing entire life-long experiences and memories in every cycle of birth and death is absurd.

Magpie parents teach all essential knowledge for survival in Nature to their chicks within a year or so. How could they do? It's unbelievable. Meanwhile intelligent modern humans barely know how to build a shelter after spending 12 to 20 years' education. Conventional education system is a sick joke!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Magpie_arp.jpg/375px-Magpie_arp.jpg

bsbray
28th November 2015, 04:13
Contradiction and duality. It is this sort of extravagance in topic that acts as one of the many knots in a net that has the group psyche confined to repeating yesterdays crossword and thinking it is today's. Distract, divide, dumbfound, detain.

I'm honestly not sure what you mean here, though if you disagree with the idea presented in the OP then that's perfectly okay and you can say so plainly. I personally think religions themselves do plenty enough of divide and conquer already, and without them and the emotional attachments they've created, there might be a lot less tension in the world in general.

If someone believes in Jesus and they get strength from that, and it makes them a better person, then I'm totally for that and would say nothing to disturb that person. But looking at things from a purely historical/investigative position, as someone who has a deep curiosity into what our past really looked like, as best we can reconstruct it, then I really think Jesus is equally real as any of the other deities mentioned above. Maybe in an esoteric sense, mass consciousness creates some kind of energetic signature or something that people can latch onto, or some archetype in the collective unconscious. But other than that I don't see much going on there.

Divine Feminine
28th November 2015, 07:18
I watched almost all of the video from the first post….I have to say, Carrier provides no substantial evidence to make his case anymore than the opposing side has been able to do. He talks way too fast, so it’s difficult to absorb what he’s saying and it gives one the feeling of being in the presence of a con artist, as if he knows he’s proving nothing.

I have to agree with what the author said from this link as I posted before:
http://www.strangenotions.com/jesus-did-exist/#

"Approximately half of his piece is devoted to other matters:

running through the names of people who agree with him in varying degrees
recommending books
expressing hope for the fortunes of his thesis in future decades
plugging his forthcoming book
acknowledging the mistakes of fact and argument made by others who hold that Jesus never existed
discussing the goal of his own research.

Stating Your Position is Not an Argument"


So it comes down to what each individual chooses to believe. No doubt many falsities have been implanted into various religious factions…. will we ever know the truth? I think rather than attacking the messenger, Jesus in this case, it’s important to look at their message objectively. One of his messages spoke of love, compassion and forgiveness. What harm is done to someone who follows this type of behavior in their everyday life? Just because I personally believe he existed does not mean I see him as my ‘savior’. I never looked at him that way. By exercising the concept of love compassion and forgiveness something he supposedly taught, I ‘saved myself’ and I believe this was the true message. I’ve never been a follower of religion in this life time though my parents tried to force me until I finally pitched a big enough fit they let me be. I was formally baptized at the age of 10, but it meant nothing at the time and of course I did it just to please my parents. It was as if I instinctively knew to stay away from religion at a very young age.

Considering my viewpoint on religion from the very beginning, how can I not find it to be ironic the Kundalini experience I have shared numerous times (where I show how I saved myself) on this forum, was created using a thought process very similar to ‘The Way’, a concept taught by both Jesus, who supposedly doesn’t exist and Mary Magdalene? How could I know such a thing with no religious teachings or guidance in this lifetime? So if ‘He’ didn’t exist, where did I learn it from? It wasn’t until 20+ years after that experience I slowly started connecting the dots. For someone who supposedly never existed, it’s very odd for me to have experienced a form of spiritual alchemy minus any formal training that mimic his teachings.

http://www.williamhenry.net/blog_scotland.html
http://i489.photobucket.com/albums/rr251/Idahophotos/JESUS%20IMAGE%20IN%20CHAPEL%20OF%20ST.%20MARY%20IN %20SCOTLAND.jpg
JESUS TRANSMUTES HEART WITH HEAVENLY ENERGY

And, even weirder….is to come across a picture painted of Jesus in a Scotland church with a title stating ‘Jesus transmutes heart with heavenly energy’,depicting a very similar experience I had when my Kundalini occurred. My writings of the experience were put in print Dec. 7, 2012. The picture of Jesus with the title using the same words I had described in my writings was just discovered by me a few months ago, I believe either late Sept or early Oct 2015. And the funny thing is this church is said to be dated around 1533, lol. What’s sad, is I can share my experience, but because it was subjective I have no way of ‘proving it’, but I believe what happened to me was very similar to what happened to Jesus. Due to this experience along with other additional objections personal to me, I feel confident he existed. And though I may not have picture memories of interacting with him, my behavior and description of ‘The Way’ I feel , can be construed as a form of memory by subconsciously remembering something I was taught long ago. I have done my best in sharing this connection in “The Great Experiment” thread. I don’t feel I’m being shistered in any way as the experience was a beautiful form of spiritual growth that sadly few are able to understand or experience. I even provided the science of the heart and remember one specific comment in particular, see underlined:

“What the people at the Institute of Heart Math have documented as scientific fact published in peer review journals, is the fact that the human heart is surrounded by a field of energy, it’s electrical energy and it’s magnetic energy, you can measure it with conventional equipment if it’s tuned properly. This field is called a torus, a tube torus it looks such like a donut that extends from the physical heart into the world around us for a distance of about 5 to 8 feet. And I asked one of the primary researchers…This field is so powerful, why does it stop at 5 feet or 8 feet? And he said, aah..that’s the limitation of my equipment. He said if we had better equipment what the equipment is showing is the heart field probably extends for a distance of many, many miles on the physical level, on the quantum level he said it’s probably infinite because it’s very difficult to tell where this electrical and magnetic field ends in the quantum field.”- Gregg Braden

And this:
“Every individual’s energy contributes to the global field environment and each persons, thoughts, emotions and intentions affects the field.”- Institute of Heart Math

So I am suggesting based on what is being discovered in regards to the science of the heart and how it can affect the Aether Field, that if you do the Kundalini properly you are creating an energetic template that all have access to, because science shows that we are all connected to the ‘Aether Field’.

Consider a quote by Nikola Tesla:
“To understand the true nature of the universe, one must think it terms of energy, frequency and vibration.”-Nikola Tesla

Relaying this story is extremely difficult because most people don’t have the acquired knowledge base to even come to this conclusion nor have they ever had the type of Kundalini I speak of, so to the average person, it is beyond their capacity of understanding. I do not say this to be demeaning, it’s merely an observation I have come to know for the very reasons I’ve stated. I’ve done my best to explain, so one can understand easily without having to go through all the research I had to in order to come to this conclusion.

So if what I’m saying is all crap…..someone please provide evidence as to how that painting appeared in the St. Mary’s church back in 1533? Who knew the meaning enough to paint such a thing if ‘He’ didn’t exist and the Kundalini I’m proposing he had, never happened?.... Cause it certainly seems to be matching the assertations I made long before I even knew such a painting existed! Now how does one explain that? These are the questions running through my head. And this is what happens when someone learns to think on their own.

And just because I share this personal story does not mean I think I’m special. I’m just a regular person who just so happened to have a unique experience, but like everyone else, I’m merely trying to connect the dots. So my agenda is the same as “Him”, (the one who supposedly didn’t exist)…..the message being, love compassion and forgiveness, is ‘The Way’. And not only is it 'The Way', it's our future, as we now know thanks to the new science, beliefs and emotions have an effect on the 'Aether Field' that surrounds and connects to us all.

Joanna
28th November 2015, 09:58
@Hughe, who says:

@Joanna

Which sun are they talking about? The first Sun, supposedly Proto Saturn or the second sun after present solar system was formed.
Many EU (Electric Universe) folks believe in the ancients, who had lived before the great cataclysmic event, had different solar system. Earth, Mars, and Venus were the moons of the first Sun. Proto Saturn's system moved into the solar system, created a lot of celestial actions till the new system stabilized.

Hughe, since this was in reference to cultures existing on Earth over the last handful of thousands of years, they aligned their religions and ceremonies with the current Sun and Moon, especially the Solstices and Equinoxes, and full Moons. The sort of cataclysmic event that could mean a different Sun is not within that timeframe - though I do 'see' that there was once a different system here, and that there will be another to come, with another sun.... difficult to prove at this time, however... ;)


@Sam, I get where you're coming from. However, the fact that you believed you were Horus and there could be several hundred folk on Earth at any one time believing they are Jesus, or some other saviour deity, neither proves nor disproves the inherent reality of those beings.
The religions created in the names of Jesus or countless other deified, glorified beings have obviously been used to condition perception and control societies. That is neither here nor there as to whether those original beings actually exist/ed either. It says more about humankind's tendency to fall on its knees and worship, and hand over personal responsibility to someone who appears to have a handle on things, in an apparently cruel, unpredictable and frightening (or indifferent) universe.
I am quite sure such beings do exist - at least, they do in my lived reality, which is all any of us can answer for - and that they are beings of love, compassion and wisdom, though finding it somewhat of a challenge to shift human perception/ego projections from either deifying them,demonizing them....or indeed, ignoring them....

Chester
28th November 2015, 18:13
It says more about humankind's tendency to fall on its knees and worship, and hand over personal responsibility to someone who appears to have a handle on things, in an apparently cruel, unpredictable and frightening (or indifferent) universe.

Yes... and someone mythical at best for there is no proof... and the people who told us "Jesus" was real are the same ones who are proven to be behind all sorts of atrocities perpetrated on mankind for centuries including the very real possibility they created a totally false history spoon fed to us all.

From my understanding "Jesus" is supposed to be "THE Son of God." If this is true in the way we are told by the "authorities" then whoever that "God" is can go back to where "it" came from for I would much rather accept what some (including myself having studied much of the Nag Hammadi Library) have interpreted the Gnostics to have warned us about which is the archontic imposition of "salvationist religion" for all sorts of reasons but certainly the most obvious being to make us feel we are some sort of defective creation of a supposedly loving "god." That is pure black magic and it has worked quite well so far.



I am quite sure such beings do exist - at least, they do in my lived reality, which is all any of us can answer for - and that they are beings of love, compassion and wisdom, though finding it somewhat of a challenge to shift human perception/ego projections from either deifying them,demonizing them....or indeed, ignoring them....

Out of all the human beings we have on Earth, how many have "beings from beyond" participating in their waking state, conscious reality? A very tiny percentage. Why are those beings not involved in everyone's reality experience? Is one possible answer that the human beings who do not recognize other worldly beings participating in their life don't do so because they are unopen to the possibility? That they do not allow their perception to "see" (or "hear") such beings?

So I have to ask, wouldn't these beings know this? And so then, if they do... can they not see how this may very well cause more harm than good?

Why can't Earth humans be allowed to resolve their own matters? Does intervening in the lives of the few who can "see/hear" them who then go and tell others amongst humanity of their experiences actually create further division in humanity? And for those who only share their other worldly experiences with those who are open, does this not create a divide as well?

All of these things seem, to me, to actually emulate the actions of the beings the Gnostics warned us about.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now having written all the above, what would be my opinion as to what may be true and what may not be? What is my opinion as to whether there may be other worldly beings involved with humanity? And if so, what is my opinion as to whether they are predominantly "good" or predominantly "evil?" And lastly, what is my opinion about the universe in general as to "good" or "evil?"

I have none. Why? Because over the course of my 58 years I have had a million opinions and theories about things that I cannot prove and one thing that has been consistent about them all is that they always change.

Yet when I know for certain that something is true - for example, that I am typing on a black keyboard with white symbols on the keys, I am very certain that as long as I keep coming back to tap on this keyboard, it will remain black and the symbols on the keys will remain white.

I cannot have that certainty either way about "Jesus" but what I can be certain about is that those who wish to push the Jesus was real belief have a consistent track record of screwing over most of humanity for centuries.

Chester
28th November 2015, 18:37
Stating Your Position is Not an Argument"


It can be.

The statement above is a black and white "is" statement. I disagree with it and I am stating it and thus I am arguing against your statement.

Is there something wrong with arguments for or against opinions of others? I do not take issue with those who argue against my opinions or theories or wishful thinking. I also do not mind folks who make arguments that support my opinions.

Arguing is part of the conversational dynamic and, in my opinion, is an amazingly healthy thing to do.

scibuster
28th November 2015, 19:02
If we disagree with the existance of Jesus did we also disagree with the existence of the following people ?


Ceasar
Kleopatra
Nero
Johannes der Täufer
Herodes
...
...
...
...

Birddog
28th November 2015, 20:58
There is an atheist and satanic movement which has entered the doors of many religious teachings and text. This is to take people away from God, and move toward a more Satanic mode of thinking.
Jesus does exist, as a middle aged man. He can travel without equipment....heck, some of us can, too. When I RVed, I traveled many places, on and off world. I have also gone back in time. I have also...jumped into different places spontaneously, both seen and unseen by others. Some call that astral travel or bilocation.
The science of virginal birth could have to do with a dimensional factor. If one understands the science of dimensions, one can have a better idea that this could have happened.
Jesus did heal, and use some of His abilities, such as mastery of the elements, to walk on water. He also raised the dead, which are really not dead at all because we never die. We just step outside of our bodies, looking just like ourselves when we pass, and this is how we all recognize each other in heaven, and when we visit with others on Earth. Jesus said My kingdom is not of this world....no, He was from someplace far away, and even though he was in an Earthly body, His Spirit was Advanced in many ways. He could think someplace and just be there..spontaneous astral travel or bilocation. He could heal the body of Lazereus, so that his flesh was no longer turning when Jesus told him to ...Rise Up.
Jesus taught us to pray....Our Father, who art in Heaven.....(Our Father, God)...His Father, too, as He called out to on the cross.
My post is but an answer to another false attack against Jesus. There is something else. I have seen Jesus. He does exist, and He does have the powers and abilities I spoke of and many more. There is an outer space connection, and that may help one understand more, the things that I have written. Have Faith....

bsbray
28th November 2015, 22:38
If we disagree with the existance of Jesus did we also disagree with the existence of the following people ?

Ceasar
Kleopatra
Nero
Johannes der Täufer
Herodes
...
...
...
...

If you had myths from a plethora of other ancient cultures that exactly mirrored the major points of these peoples' lives then I would definitely have to think twice about their historicity. Sometimes there is also a real figure but that person's history becomes totally convoluted or painted over with a fictional account for political or religious reasons. This is actually fairly commonplace and there are lots of "historical" figures who most scholars readily admit were greatly embellished or mythologized by common people after the fact.

One thing that many people don't appreciate today is that during the Middle Ages, most people in Europe were illiterate, and the texts from ancient Greece and Rome were rotting away, being burned or otherwise being lost. The only major class of people who could read and write in Medieval Europe were... Catholic clergy. As they transcribed the ancient documents, they admit to "correcting" them.

You mention Caesar so we can take him as another example. Today we have the book Commentarii de Bello Gallico or Commentaries on the Gallic War, attributed to Caesar, somewhere around 50 BC or so. No text anywhere near that old actually survives. The only "primary sources" that do survive are medieval, transcribed by Catholic clergy. So even the texts of Caesar that we read today have been filtered through the lens of Medieval Europe, and more specifically the Catholic Church. The same Catholic Church, remember, that was torturing, burning and generally killing millions of people in the names of God and Jesus.

If there was anything in these texts that went against their doctrine, do you think they would just copy it as they found it, even while they're killing people for going against their doctrine? It would not make sense to kill people for having heretical views of Jesus (such as the Cathars), but then copy old text and republish it that says the same things. And again they admit themselves that they had to "correct" many of these texts.

Lots of people are skeptical of events like the JFK assassination or 9/11 today, for good reason. But when textbooks are written, the official stories are still going into them. You'd be lucky to find a textbook at a major university that even suggests there are any credible reasons to doubt these official stories. So these are the times we live in today. If anyone thinks things were more transparent at a time when most people couldn't even read or write, there was no Internet or radio or television, and the authorities would kill you for expressing views they didn't like, then I would suggest that these things be considered more carefully and realistically.

Elen
29th November 2015, 06:30
10/10 bsbray!

Chester
29th November 2015, 15:35
If we disagree with the existance of Jesus did we also disagree with the existence of the following people ?


Ceasar
Kleopatra
Nero
Johannes der Täufer
Herodes
...
...
...
...

As far as I know, none of those legendary people in the above quoted list were used by an organized group of human ancestors to psychologically pacify their masses, to use "suggestion" that the masses can toil their whole lives for the "kings" in this life and will reap their rewards in the afterlife while the evil ones go to an eternal hell. None of them are reported to have told the masses they are poor sinners, born in sin and that a loving "god" (their "god") thought the best solution was to "incarnate" (as "his" son) whereupon a viscious set of groups would torture and kill "this son" so that we could be forgiven of the supposed "sins" we all commit.

Seriously - is there still a single "thinking being" who has not figured out how ludicrous this is? Sadly the answer is yes.

What a lovely "god" that "only begotten son" is from and what a lovely "binding" (note the word religion comes from a word which meant "to bind") the masses so willingly accept.

Lovely "god/man" who a group used to justify such lovely campaigns as "the inquisition."

Lovely "god" that "god/man" represents that sits back while "his son" is used to justify these actions against many of our ancestors.

Orwell said "control the past and you control the future." Looks like he's right.

Aianawa
30th November 2015, 02:02
During healing work I have felt the Christ energy many times and always equated it to Christing not Jesus, until I worked with a desparate lady who was told she would soon be dead ( cancer ), she was of a religion that did not allow blood transfusions etc etc, A dear trusted friend of hers talked her out of her belief system and she came with her to meet me, 3 hours of talking about what the process would include ( no crystals, reiki, blessings, Nothing but Christ would she allow to be part of the proceedings ), I was allowed to put my hands on her head and her feet, only ), her friend sat beside table, I ask her to give intent for jesus and thanks, emmediately Jesus was there, for about twenty minutes, two ladies saw jesus ( other lady was a sceptic beforehand ), I felt and knew it was jesus or jesus energy as such, so I am able to distinguish between the two for myself, christing and jesus energy, so I believe jesus lived at one time, then some years afterward I read the nine faces of Christ and believe there to have been a few jesus's back in time.

Dreamtimer
30th November 2015, 07:01
I have family members who are devout Christians. I doubt we could ever have any kind of "debate" over the existence of Jesus. Nothing happens without his grace and intervention. I don't think there's anything on this earth that could change their faith. If the 'Annunaki' showed up with 'proof' they started the Jesus myth these people would still have faith.

They are loving, good people and would never become fanatical and kill over their beliefs. I'm pretty sure they would never turn their back on a family member who was atheist or married into a different religion.

This is not the same with my orthodox Jewish friends. Some will disown children who stray. As if they died.

Is this faith in Jesus a 'savior complex'? For them it's the foundation of their reality.

I believe I have responsibility for my own soul. To them, that's an impossibility. Only Jesus can save it. There's no room for debate. Most likely they pray for our souls' salvation.

Greenbarry
30th November 2015, 08:09
so why is there so much energy put towards proving
one is wrong and one is right? is this something else
that is stealing our attention? we all have our own
path to follow and of course our own views conflict
with another ones views. who is it that would want
anyone to think as it is being presented here? some
guy with this phd BS writes a book and has a motor
mouth and talks like everyone knows what he is talking
about, to make his argument the right one. nothing but
a two bit con in action. so, he may say something that
chimes with how "you" feel/think. there is something
to take you, away from you, for everyone! its a short
fix.
this is a lazy mans escape, to feel empowered, to let
another talk, for ones self.
the guy doesnt know one way or another. books he read?
we all know books are written by other men/women that
would fit the same schema. any book written is edited.
what does edited mean? take out, rearrange, change words,
ect... he puts out weak phrases that only attacks
minds that are already in the "its not possible" arena.
is it possible for one to have photographic memory?
is it possible for one to have telekinesis?
is it possible for one to have superhuman strength?
is it possible for one to have telepathy?
is it possible for one to be psychic?
so, is anything impossible?
no, nothing is impossible!
do i beLIEve in jesus? no..
i know jesus to be true.
this is not the bible beLIEf of jesus..
it (the bible) has been stomped on for a long time and
changed or edited to fit another ones needs/wants.
he places all his arguments on someone else to prove his
right. he is a dis ease trying to spread.
We have so much more the be than what we currently are.

Joanna
30th November 2015, 13:41
@Sam, I'll attempt to address your questions here...

Sam said:

Out of all the human beings we have on Earth, how many have "beings from beyond" participating in their waking state, conscious reality? A very tiny percentage. Why are those beings not involved in everyone's reality experience? Is one possible answer that the human beings who do not recognize other worldly beings participating in their life don't do so because they are unopen to the possibility? That they do not allow their perception to "see" (or "hear") such beings?

So I have to ask, wouldn't these beings know this? And so then, if they do... can they not see how this may very well cause more harm than good?

Why can't Earth humans be allowed to resolve their own matters? Does intervening in the lives of the few who can "see/hear" them who then go and tell others amongst humanity of their experiences actually create further division in humanity? And for those who only share their other worldly experiences with those who are open, does this not create a divide as well?

All of these things seem, to me, to actually emulate the actions of the beings the Gnostics warned us about.

Okay, first question, which you answered, and I will respond to differently:

Out of all the human beings we have on Earth, how many have "beings from beyond" participating in their waking state, conscious reality? A very tiny percentage.

If you're going to speak for all of humanity in that tiny percentage, then you need to take into account cultures other than Western ones, such as the many indigenous cultures (but not limited to them) who have had - and some members still have - connection with 'beings from beyond' in their waking, conscious reality, which could include ETs, nature spirits and elementals, ancestor spirits and deceased family members, angelic and creator beings and so on.
For instance, if you saw the opening post on the Ley Lines thread (http://jandeane81.com/threads/8183-Ley-lines-and-nodes-Share-your-experiences), the stone in the centre of the first sacred circle I stated as coming from an Aboriginal sacred site in the Kimberley region of Western Australia, one of seven sacred sites in that area which in the Dreaming mythology of the tribes here, was directly connected to the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades and creator beings they called the wandjina who came from that constellation (which can be seen depicted in cave paintings in the Kimberley). The stone came from an Aboriginal elder from that area whose tribe are custodians of the sites and the ley line that runs down here, also under my current property. While much Aboriginal culture has been decimated, as all around the world where Europeans colonized, there are still those who remember, and hold the 'songlines' intact, and I know from them that they do indeed see, hear and tangibly sense the presence of other-dimensional souls, spirits and beings....and I did have a very powerful experience with an elder of the Nyoongar tribe here in Perth years ago, where we connected in a dream while asleep, and he carried within his energy the souls of 200 of his tribe...for they do not have the sense of separation that Western individualism does...and those who have not succumbed to the 'shutdown' of their inner cultural reality can and do see star people easily. So you may want to reconsider the underlying assumptions of that 'tiny percentage'....

Consider also that for people who are walking/living in a deeply connective experience across dimensions, or across the 'Veil', there is no such thing as 'beyond'. It all IS. Realities are very fluid in that state, interwoven and always interconnected.

Why are those beings not involved in everyone's reality experience? Is one possible answer that the human beings who do not recognize other worldly beings participating in their life don't do so because they are unopen to the possibility? That they do not allow their perception to "see" (or "hear") such beings?

They are involved in everyone's reality experience, but most people's conscious awareness blocks that knowing.

For instance, the first ship sighting I had four years ago was with a neighbour who happened to be devoutly Catholic. We watched the ships together and spoke about them. Ten minutes later when I referred to them again, she had no conscious memory at all of having seen them. They simply did not fit into the world-view she was mentally and emotionally attached to, and therefore was quickly erased so as not to disrupt that world-view....which it would have done, bigtime!

Similarly, when people do see other-dimensional beings, they will tend to project onto them their expectation, which may be personal or culturally conditioned, or both. I view the soul that incarnated as 'Jesus' as a star being, and when we've been in communication, I do tend to 'see' him (though not always) in that form, which while not being religious, I still grew up with in this culture. Someone connecting with that same soul who came from a culture without a Jesus-focus could see that same soul by a different form, maybe a different soul aspect that was more resonant to their 'way of seeing'. But those forms would still have the same 'soul print', the same Essence.

So I have to ask, wouldn't these beings know this? And so then, if they do... can they not see how this may very well cause more harm than good?

Yes, they are well aware that as long as Earth humanity's attachment to the Veil's illusion of separation and their ego's survival stories (fear of annihilation) are focussed into identification with those illusions, then they will not see/hear/feel past it, and if they do it will be accompanied by all the distortions of those projections. That doesn't mean it's not worth attempting to reach them - which has at times included stepping into 3D physicality - with mixed results at best, which is one of the reasons higher dimensional don't do it more often, and some not at all.

Why can't Earth humans be allowed to resolve their own matters? Does intervening in the lives of the few who can "see/hear" them who then go and tell others amongst humanity of their experiences actually create further division in humanity? And for those who only share their other worldly experiences with those who are open, does this not create a divide as well?

Again, this comes from a view of 'us' and 'them' that is bound up with attachment to the illusion of separation. From my perspective, WE - Earth humans, star beings, Inner Earth people, Gaia and indeed Source, by whatever name, are resolving our own matters together...because those 'matters' concern us ALL, and are interwoven and interconnected between us all...and as a star being currently incarnate as an Earth human who has a strong love for Gaia and all life travelling with this planet, to divide my experience and perception into 'us' and 'them' has no meaning, and would be counterproductive.

As to sharing such experiences, I just read these words:

Your value to those around you hinges upon only one thing: your personal alignment with Source. And the only thing you have to give to another is an example of that alignment—which they may observe, then desire, and then work to achieve—but you cannot give it to them. Everyone is responsible for the thoughts they think and the things that they choose as their objects of attention. (Abraham-Hicks)

Pretty much sums it up. Regarding those who seem to share their otherworldly (of course, I would say, this-worldly-in-multidimensions) experiences with others who are open, and that causing even more division, that is your perception. All I would say here is that those who really do live in this state of connectedness feel an inexpressible love for everyone and all life, and are doing all they can in their unique and various ways to share that connectedness, without force or coercion, because they know the sacred flow of life....

All of these things seem, to me, to actually emulate the actions of the beings the Gnostics warned us about.

The Gnostics' vision has twists and distortions in it, just like every other religion/mythology/doctrine on Earth. If that is how all these things seem to you, then that is your choice. If you believe Jesus and/or other star people of high love are emulating the actions of such beings - archons, presumably - then from my point of view you're seeing him only through the way the religion that grew up using his name presented him for the benefit of those who sought power, and not allowing or imagining any other possibility as to who and what that being is...so if you did encounter his presence 'unveiled', what mental blocks would you have in the way, what conditionality?

Myst
30th November 2015, 13:48
.

Dreamtimer
30th November 2015, 15:49
Greenbarry, I like your comment. People are too often focused on proof when it's not available or even necessary. Listening to Art Bell's show with Scott Lemriel, it was fine until the end when a caller asked him to prove his claims. The rest of the show was just a clamoring for proof.

What Scott had to offer was a way to have a personal experience to see for oneself. They couldn't even let him fully explain it. It involved chanting HU. They wouldn't discuss it enough to even critique the method or its results.

Joanna just mentioned HU in the context of the name ahura in the ley lines thread. The last portion of the Art's show was useless because there was no real discussion or debate.

Similar dynamics occur when discussing Jesus.

The basic problem I have with many Christians is that they want to talk about the proof they have, scripture, yet at the same time demand faith when that 'proof' fails. Their personal experience is real and true, thus proof, yet they can judge another's experience as wrong. An experience they haven't had.

The bottom line is responsibility. We're responsible for what we do, say and think, for who we are.

bsbray
30th November 2015, 18:43
That was a beautiful post, Myst. Only 14 posts here? You should stop by more often. :p

I try to come at things from a very grounded perspective but math and science aren't always as "grounded" as most people imagine, which ties into Godel's work, as you mentioned. I like it when people really think about the limitations of the tools we use for making sense of reality. :)

Chester
1st December 2015, 16:36
Hi, I played the role of "contrarian" and have done pretty good at it.

I base this opinion on the appearance of so many excellent responses.

and wow... I just noticed the post number - #28

28 is the second perfect number.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_number

Why I feel this "coincidence" is interesting is the "jesus" was "perfect" and that "he" is supposed to "return for a second time."

Aianawa
4th December 2015, 06:13
Perfect ?, for his times maybe, imo many have done more and presently able to do more in our times, as Jesus apparently said.