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View Full Version : If vaccinations were proven safe - should we administer them?



Chester
17th June 2015, 20:35
If vaccinations were proven safe - should we administer them?

Understand... I am asking this question ONLY in the case that we have proven the vaccinations are truly safe.

Well?

bsbray
17th June 2015, 20:38
I'm skeptical of the whole idea. I understand that decades ago maybe there was some benefit, at least that's what we're told, before they started adding 100 toxic chemicals to them. But I'm skeptical even of that.

The idea is that once we catch a certain disease, our immune system remembers it, remembers how to recognize and handle it immediately the next time it pops up, so we become immune to it. So if we expose our body to a very weak version of the illness, we can build an immunity fairly easily. But as complex as the human body is, I'm sure there are more shades to it than just this simple explanation.

Chester
17th June 2015, 21:16
But still the question remains - IF... If vaccinations were proven totally safe, would we... should we still administer them? Should we impose them on a population?

I am asking folks to play the assume game here with me for a moment.

Rebel&Rocket
17th June 2015, 22:02
I live in an area that has a very large southeast Asian population. Very recently, a woman who was having a baby had several relatives visiting from out of the country who turned out to have had measles and been contagious, in turn exposing the entire maternity ward of a large county hospital, dozens of newborns, to measles.

Very similarly, a number of kids at my sister's high school contracted measles in exactly the same way about 20 years ago - brought by someone's visiting relatives from Southeast Asia. These kids happened to have been vaccinated with a bad batch that didn't work. Several kids were very, very ill for a long time, including my sister. At 14, she was in bed for weeks and lost 20 pounds (and definitely didn't need to lose weight).

So....from my experience, that's a tough question, Sam. I'd definitely have to consider it.

bsbray
17th June 2015, 22:52
I think I get where you're going with this now. If it was proven totally safe, should the government have the right to force people to take them? I would say no. If someone wants to take them and be immune to whatever illness then that's their right, and if they don't want to do this for whatever reason, that should be their right as well.

RealityCreation
18th June 2015, 03:43
But still the question remains - IF... If vaccinations were proven totally safe, would we... should we still administer them? Should we impose them on a population?

I am asking folks to play the assume game here with me for a moment.

That would not sit well with me. Imposing anything upon anyone is to me a breach of free will, so I would say no. Even if they were proven to be safe I believe it should be an individual choice for each person to make for themselves.

Chester
18th June 2015, 20:24
That would not sit well with me. Imposing anything upon anyone is to me a breach of free will, so I would say no. Even if they were proven to be safe I believe it should be an individual choice for each person to make for themselves.

Yes... I understand this yet here's the problem... it does no good if only some folks get vaccinated as the ones who don't are a hazard to the others who don't or the others where the vaccine didn't work.

So all I am pointing out is that this is the argument governments use in trying to impose vaccines.

What a dilemma.

Why I brought this up is in relation to the immigration of my wife and that she and my step-daughter may be required to get all sorts of vaccines to come be with me here in the US.

This is sad for me as I am worried this will be harming them later down the road of their life.

Again... what a dilemma.

lcam88
18th June 2015, 20:32
Mr Sam Hunter:

Is there a reason _not_ to have safe vaccines you refer to in your hypothetical? Is there some other factor you are considering besides safety and efficacy?

I ask because most people get the vaccines based on the notion that they help and they are safe, both notions contentious to me.

bsbray
18th June 2015, 20:48
Yes... I understand this yet here's the problem... it does no good if only some folks get vaccinated as the ones who don't are a hazard to the others who don't or the others where the vaccine didn't work.

So then the question would be, why are people who took the vaccine still getting sick, if that's the case? Then the vaccines would be ineffective and should not be used at all.

But if they worked, then only those who refused them should be getting sick, and they would have understood this risk from the beginning.



Is there a reason _not_ to have safe vaccines you refer to in your hypothetical? Is there some other factor you are considering besides safety and efficacy?

Yes, I believe the 3rd factor he is considering is freedom.

The One
18th June 2015, 20:55
This might sound like a dumb question

But the Amish community do not get vaccinated and they are so healthy.How are they able to get away with not getting the mandatory vaccinations that all the children have to have.

I remember once seeing a documentary where they took 20 kids out the city and 20 kids out the amish community.All the 20 kids they took from the city had beeen vacinated and the Amish kids had not and guess what every single kid from the city was more unhealthy than the Amish children

Chester
18th June 2015, 21:48
Mr Sam Hunter:

Is there a reason _not_ to have safe vaccines you refer to in your hypothetical? Is there some other factor you are considering besides safety and efficacy?

I ask because most people get the vaccines based on the notion that they help and they are safe, both notions contentious to me.

Your questions are good ones... If I re-wrote my OP, I would do a better job. What happened was that I started down a particular road without foreseeing the road branching off.

I tried very hard to eliminate (in this hypothetical situation) the argument about their safety. Most of us on these forums (not all... but most) have the opinion that many if not all vaccines are unsafe.

So going back to the hypothetical, I see a big dilemma here.

We have a world.

In this world it has been observed over generations that there has been a terrible specific type of disease which occasionally goes epidemic and kills huge numbers of people.

A vaccine is developed which demonstrates that in populations where the vaccine is administered, the disease disappears.

So now... "the government" decides that everyone must get this vaccine.

Then a group of citizens say, we demand choice.

Another group says that unless everyone gets the vaccine, the disease still survives and in fact can morph such that even the current vaccine no longer prevents illness (and death) from this disease.

See the dilemma?

Please don't get the wrong idea I support enforcing vaccination mandates.

Ohh. and also, when i was alerted to the cancerns of vaccinations back in 2000, I never allowed my kids to get another vaccination.

Sadly, I am faced with having to accept that my wife will likely be forced to get them and it greatly saddens me

Chester
18th June 2015, 22:09
So then the question would be, why are people who took the vaccine still getting sick, if that's the case? Then the vaccines would be ineffective and should not be used at all.

But if they worked, then only those who refused them should be getting sick, and they would have understood this risk from the beginning.


Yes, I believe the 3rd factor he is considering is freedom.


Note: (and this is simply saying what a "government" might say) - A vaccine may prove effective 98% of the time yet still... a few do not get the benefits. So those who refuse to get vaccinated risk the lives of others.

My point is that we can clamor for "rights" but some governments use these arguments to force them on others.

Sadly, many folks will agree with that logic.

And so the thing I wanted to point out is that its almost impossible to escape the imposition of a government on what one might perceive as their rights, especially when part of the governed also agree with the logic.

Dreamtimer
18th June 2015, 22:21
Sam, you're posing a dilemma that has a personal and a societal level. For you and your family, you weigh the risks of disease versus the risks of vaccine. You can't know when disease will strike, so you must be vigilant about knowing symptoms and avoiding contact. You can know when vaccine comes so you can do things like, spread them out, be sure to have time to take care and monitor after they're administered, take precautions like supplements and lots of fluids, etc. Since the govt has a say, you may not have a choice. Some states have religious exceptions.

The One brings up a great point about the Amish. They have their own knowledge about avoiding disease. Their lifestyle keeps them healthy with work and fresh food and strong community. Some of the 'plain people' have issues with genetic similarity because of their small communities.

Daozen
18th June 2015, 22:54
But the Amish community do not get vaccinated and they are so healthy.How are they able to get away with not getting the mandatory vaccinations that all the children have to have.


Good point. You might be able to refuse vaccines on religious grounds, citing the Amish. "They" usually leave a way out, even if it's very obscure. They are required to by law. There is also a statement of responsibility they can sign, where you get them to affirm that the vaccines are toxin free. They never sign it. Smoke, mirrors and bluster.

I would avoid the hypothetical discussion and get right down to looking for the loopholes.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 03:22
What a contemplation, Sam Hunter.

Let's presume the hypothetical, that they are indeed safe and they work. If everyone else gets vaccinated you may get by on what is referred to as the "herd effect". The fact that the disease doesn't catch in the general population means that you are less likely to be exposed.

I do not presume the hypothetical, in fact I recommend talking to a doctor about the quality of vaccines and options available; some are made with a mercury based preservative because it's cheaper. There may be other vaccine options that are safer (mercury free) but they will likely cost more.

If immigration has makes vaccination requirements, it is likely evidence from the current country of residence is going to be required, local vaccine regulations may be different from US regs and perhaps the US just wants to see local compliance.

I have further suspicions regarding vaccines that crosses the line into the tin-foil-hat zone, but I'll relieve you all of being burdened with that speculation. :)

Chester
19th June 2015, 04:22
Good point. You might be able to refuse vaccines on religious grounds, citing the Amish. "They" usually leave a way out, even if it's very obscure. They are required to by law. There is also a statement of responsibility they can sign, where you get them to affirm that the vaccines are toxin free. They never sign it. Smoke, mirrors and bluster.

I would avoid the hypothetical discussion and get right down to looking for the loopholes.

In my case... my wife and step-daughter have to get all sorts of vaccines or they will not be allowed to be with me in the US. There is zero loopholes.

jonsnow
19th June 2015, 16:18
there is always a loophole just you have to get expert advice in the matter go to someone who been there done that

vaccines can be overcome by your immune system improve your diet take something to boost your immune system as well be positive remove sugar from your diet
practice Yiquan martial art which will greatly help

bsbray
19th June 2015, 16:46
I wish you luck in finding a solution to that problem, Sam. I am so concerned about all the toxic stuff they put into vaccines, the correlation between increased vaccination and increased autism rates, the idea that microchips could even be added to them in the manufacturing process (which there were technology new articles suggesting in the 1980s) that I was considering raising any kids I have in a foreign country.

From what you say, even if they wanted to return here later they'd have to get these nasty vaccines, unless someone finally does away with them. Despite our history as a nation of immigrants, the US today has some of the strictest and craziest immigration laws that I've ever heard of. I've heard from others that coming back home to the US is more likely to be a terrible experience with airport security than in any foreign country an American may visit.

TimeLab
19th June 2015, 16:55
There is no need to wonder about or juggle 'opinions' on vaccinations. The truth is available with a lot of research and discernment, but it is not rocket science. This interference with nature means they are not safe, never have been safe and are incapable of ever being safe.

I have done my homework and the truth is crystal clear. I know about the vaccination making process and the exact reasons for the toxic adjuvants. I know about the reasons why the original bacteria or live virus must be attenuated - weakened for human use by passing several times thru tissues of cows, dogs, rodents, pigs, minced monkey kidneys, mashed chick embryos or aborted human fetus organs. I know the history of vaccines and the charts that show what a big lie it's been that they 'stopped' polio, smallpox and others - the disease was almost gone already due to various other factors including sanitation improvements. I know how many times the definition of whatever disease was changed to change the doctors reporting mandates to cook the statistics. I know the dangers of the lack of long term testing on the combinations of the toxic ingredients in a schedule of so many vaccines, many times many at a time. I know why there is no such thing as herd immunity. I know why the bane of the vaccine makers is the IMPOSSIBILITY of removing all foreign animal RNA and DNA from their concoctions leaving the possibility of mutation into lethal new viruses. I know when congress declared vaccines 'unavoidably unsafe' and established the Vaccine Injury Commission relieving pharmas from all legal, health and financial accountability for any vaccine damage. I have seen mountains of evidence that EVERY vaccine causes small strokes noticeable in the eyes - ischemia - the unnatural stimulation of too many white blood cells in a short time that block who knows what capillary where preventing oxygen for just enough time to cause small, medium or big damage to whatever part of the brain and depending what age resulting in autism, sids, and many, many, many more other names of afflictions that are really the results of short deprivation of normal oxygen flow.

I could write another few pages of sentences about vaccines starting with the words 'I know..". There is no reason not to be able to make an informed decision about nearly anything these days. Best wishes on finding a loophole.

Chester
19th June 2015, 17:34
There is no need to wonder about or juggle 'opinions' on vaccinations. The truth is available with a lot of research and discernment, but it is not rocket science. This interference with nature means they are not safe, never have been safe and are incapable of ever being safe.

I have done my homework and the truth is crystal clear. I know about the vaccination making process and the exact reasons for the toxic adjuvants. I know about the reasons why the original bacteria or live virus must be attenuated - weakened for human use by passing several times thru tissues of cows, dogs, rodents, pigs, minced monkey kidneys, mashed chick embryos or aborted human fetus organs. I know the history of vaccines and the charts that show what a big lie it's been that they 'stopped' polio, smallpox and others - the disease was almost gone already due to various other factors including sanitation improvements. I know how many times the definition of whatever disease was changed to change the doctors reporting mandates to cook the statistics. I know the dangers of the lack of long term testing on the combinations of the toxic ingredients in a schedule of so many vaccines, many times many at a time. I know why there is no such thing as herd immunity. I know why the bane of the vaccine makers is the IMPOSSIBILITY of removing all foreign animal RNA and DNA from their concoctions leaving the possibility of mutation into lethal new viruses. I know when congress declared vaccines 'unavoidably unsafe' and established the Vaccine Injury Commission relieving pharmas from all legal, health and financial accountability for any vaccine damage. I have seen mountains of evidence that EVERY vaccine causes small strokes noticeable in the eyes - ischemia - the unnatural stimulation of too many white blood cells in a short time that block who knows what capillary where preventing oxygen for just enough time to cause small, medium or big damage to whatever part of the brain and depending what age resulting in autism, sids, and many, many, many more other names of afflictions that are really the results of short deprivation of normal oxygen flow.

I could write another few pages of sentences about vaccines starting with the words 'I know..". There is no reason not to be able to make an informed decision about nearly anything these days. Best wishes on finding a loophole.

Please do... please do write more.

I am now stating that the OP and what I hoped to explore here (albeit a hypothetical) is not even worth considering when using the "vaccination scenario" within the hypothetical.

Now that I am happy that my thread has moved "naturally" in this direction... please, please do elaborate.

TimeLab
20th June 2015, 17:43
Ok, here's a few more 'I know's... ' off the top of my head. By the way, I've been personally refusing as long as I've been able and especially ramped up my investigating when having a child 20 years ago. It's been a long ugly battle all these years to fight the system and keep my child's immune system natural, clean and strong. It's one of the things I am most proud of having done.

So I also know about the vast planned expansion of targeted vaccines to 'prevent' a gigantic list of common diseases, cancers, AIDS... and/or diffuse things like 'religious fanaticism'. I know about the supposed outbreaks like ebola and measles recently to fake the excuses for suddenly 110 oddly similarly worded bills for forced vaccination to appear all over the United States on legislative super fast tracks. I know how pharmas have been excused from having to conduct standard testing procedures of vaccines before public release. I know all the lies, obfuscations and denials about vaccine safety despite all the recalls after damage done. I know about the 3.5 billion now paid in vaccine court - taxpayer money, not pharma money for these damages. I know the profit history and profit projections of the 5 big vaccine makers for worldwide distribution and future vaccine rollouts. I know about this convenient access to people's bloodstreams for the insertion of tracking/disease generating/mind altering remote controlled nanobots/microchips. I noticed how the reporting blitz of exact same panic wordings on 1000's of medias about the very unexplained origin Disney measles supposed outbreak was followed immediately by the big rollout of forced vaccination laws and how it conveniently coincided with the rollout of the cradle to grave tracking system known as Obamacare.

The biggest point to me about vaccine 'safety' is that these single ingredients and/or concoctions of adjuvants, toxins, lab created viruses, bacterias and combinations thereof would NEVER be encountered in normal life as direct exposure into the human bloodstream. Besides the extraordinarily dangerous immediate moments of unnatural white blood cell panic, the unknown and in many cases unadmitted - is the additive, cumulative, interactive effects of these foreign, unnatural ingredients over time. Getting any vaccine makes you a lifelong guinea pig.

I can't put countless books and 1000's of pages of sites/homework here. I won't even put links, it's all easy to find with all these clues and leads I've listed. You have to read everything and figure out for yourself what is substantial, half crappy, crappy, valid science, valid peer reviews, you have to read ALL the vaccine history and pharma history and see what the puzzle pieces add up to for you. Patterns will become clear, who's leaving what out, who's manipulating, who's lying, who's surprised, mortified and just discovering, who's afraid, who's damaged, who has an agenda, who's in control, who's taking action, where it's heading, etc.

This agenda is really heating up, isn't it?
Best to all.

Chester
20th June 2015, 18:32
Thanks TimeLab for posting detail after detail as to why someone should be concerned about vaccines.

Thank you TOT for providing a public social medium which these matters can be shared is such a detailed way.