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View Full Version : Why Charging Money for Disclosure-Related Information is Wrong



bstuart
17th June 2015, 01:33
I’m rather new to the TOT forums, and the disclosure community, but I feel that the issue of charging money or putting up a paywall for disclosure-related information demands further discourse. I’m going to leave names out of this post, as it’s not my intention to levy personal attacks upon anyone, but the actions of public figures requires public examination.

Any representative of truth, who attempts to stifle conversation or deflect valid discussion, by unfairly demonizing their opposition as negative or venomous, should be viewed with intense scrutiny. Alternatively, anyone who is legitimately attempting to start a flame war, openly insult and name-call, or be disruptive should be handled by the forum moderators. From what I’ve seen thus far, the TOT moderators do an excellent job with this, and I appreciate their dedication to keeping the forum clean.

However, when disclosure representatives sardonically respond to valid questions with “face-palm” emoticons, and state that it’s not possible to have a public discussion anymore, then I believe the discerning public should be extra careful with their information.

Charging for Disclosure

I have noticed that there is a growing voice, on this forum and elsewhere, advocating against putting disclosure-related information behind a paywall. I believe that charging money for this kind of information only harms a community that is interested in truth, and that we should openly oppose those who operate this way. There are numerous reasons why this information should be free.

First, if an informant or messenger, in any way, is charging money for their information then they are immediately setting themselves up with a conflict of interests. There is good reason why this is strictly prohibited in areas where the integrity of the data is supreme.

When the individual stands to gain financially then there is an incentive to maximize the profit accrued with their material. This can result in information piecemeal, whereby the data is unnecessarily released over an extended period of time to maximize monetary gain. This harms the community, because it uselessly delays the truth.

Second, when money in involved, it also sets up a scenario whereby the messenger may bias or slightly alter the information to extend the shelf-life of their product. Common examples are cliffhangers or teasers. The audience is strung along in such a way that they are eager to hand over more money in the future to know what happens next. This is harmful to the community because this incentivizes the presenting party to embellish their data and make it more exciting. When the story is more dramatic then there is more money to be made. This undermines the integrity and validity of any disclosed information that becomes public in this manner.

The “They must pay their bills” Argument

The most common argument that I’ve read on these forums and elsewhere for the disclosure paywall, is that the individuals who vet whistleblowers, or are whistleblowers themselves, must put food on their table somehow, and that this justifies their position. I do not believe that this argument holds up under close inspection for the following reasons.

To begin with, I’ve found it difficult to believe that earth-side representatives of supposed advanced space-faring civilizations require my money to put food on their table. Are these whistleblower's stories not filled with space-age technology of transportation, teleportation, age regression, and interdimensional communications? I really have to ask, that if their stories are true, then why are these groups leaving their representatives to face the poor-house unless those of us in the community support them with our money?

Am I really supposed to believe that groups with incredibly advanced technologies are unable to properly support their earth-side allies with, at the very least, basic living amenities like food and shelter? This is a rather large hang-up I have with a few of the narratives that are going around this forum and others. Be aware and discern for yourselves.

For those individuals who are not direct representatives of supposed space-faring groups, the “must pay their bills” argument also doesn’t make much sense. The cost of disseminating information in the technological internet age is next to nothing. Gone are the days where it required a large overhead to spread our message in a printed newsletter, or in a professionally video recorded studio for television. We live in the era of free websites, free forums, and free radio-style podcasting. If anyone claims that their overhead is too high to manage a website or blog, then they are ignorant, uninformed, or lying to you.

Recording videos that require a studio, sound and light equipment, editing software, and the whole works is a rather inefficient form of communication. That is, unless the primary goal isn’t the dissemination of information at all, but instead the goal is entertainment.

It’s unlikely you will ever hear whether or not this is true directly from these individuals, but it’s something that we should all at the very least consider when engaging with their material. If the goal is indeed entertainment, then I actually don’t have any issue charging for content. However, I do have an issue when this content is marketed as part of the truth and disclosure movement.

Equal Energy Exchange

I firmly believe that the community should consciously be aware of any author’s intent before any money is exchanged. This is important so that a clear interpretation of the material is available. If the author is forthcoming about the presentation being entertainment, then it eliminates the possibility for abuse since it is clear what is being sold.

As an example, when someone purchases a surfboard, the buyer understands that he is paying for the future entertainment to be had over the lifespan of the object. There is an equal exchange of energy here:

Seller Monetary Gain +1
Buyer Entertainment +1

However, in regards to selling disclosure, if the intent and purpose of the activity is to inform as many people as possible, then not only does this prohibit an equal exchange of energy, but it actually undermines the process in favor of the seller:

Seller Monetary Gain +1
Seller Information Dissemination Goal +1
Buyer Accesses Data +1

The author not only monetarily gains, but also achieves the goal of dissemination, while the audience is presented with data that doesn’t really have any further use, like in the example with the surfboard. The individuals that have placed themselves before the public as messengers of truth should be held to a high standard. If we fail to do this, if we fail to consider exploitative behavior, then we have only ourselves to blame for the consequences.

Paywall Divides the Community

My final observation with this posting is that erecting any form of monetary barrier for the TRUTH, ultimately leads to a divided community. This promotes the status quo with the have and the have-nots. Even when the fee is comparatively low, this still prevents access for those who have no disposable income. Some services, such as GAIAMTV require a credit card, which immediately discounts a substantial audience from all over the globe.

It’s unfortunate, that even on these forums, there are those who sardonically mock posters for being unable to spend a few dollars for information; as if to imply that this somehow makes them unworthy. I find these types of responses rather saddening, and I would urge everyone to stand up against this kind behavior.

In conclusion, as advocates and seekers of truth, we should do our best to avoid systems that disenfranchise those who are less fortunate. Disclosure is a very important thing, and we should actively speak up against actions that may lead to abuse. You don’t have to look very far to see certain disclosure “personalities” ask for large sums of money, which only resulted in a black whole. We should be diligent about investigating the integrity of the information that is being presented, and we should openly and earnestly discuss the issues, even if they make some groups uncomfortable.

Thanks for reading,
Just my 2c

mojo
17th June 2015, 01:57
I appreciate your OP, and in 6 years of sharing information and evidence without advertizing or monetary gain because disclosure is important to humanity. But I believe everyone that works should be paid for their efforts. How is laboring for disclosure any different than paying for any other service? I would love to purchase better equipment to produce even better proofs and being of low income it's not possible. Please understand that I totally get what your saying but I also feel why shouldn't front line field investigations be compensated? The big time names in ufology do not support us and none is asking how they can help yet always mention they appreciate the efforts put forth. If money was not a problem I would make field investigation a full time endeavor but I don't see a way to get the support that is needed to go full time. My last thought and have thought of this many times, how would I handle getting footage that proves the ETS are visiting here, ie the so called definitive proof. There is much value in proof that shows beyond a doubt imho.

bstuart
17th June 2015, 02:17
If the goal is to disseminate information to as large an audience as possible, with the highest amount of integrity, then achieving wide distribution is the reward for the effort involved. There are many successful non-profit organizations that operate in exactly this way. I believe that it's imperative that disclosure retain it's integrity for the reasons I stated in the original post.

Alternatively, if the primary goal is to instead make a living or a career out researching and content creation, then this is something slightly different. It can still fit into something like a non-profit, and I have no issue with individuals pursuing this so long as they are upfront about their motives. The use of something like google adverts is a great way to make a bit of money while keeping content free. However, my issue arises when individuals claim that they are presenting material, for the betterment and enlightenment of humanity, and then surrounding their information with a wall requiring paid admittance. It's a contradiction and easily abused.

modwiz
17th June 2015, 02:20
Sometimes a thumbs down button would be useful. Maybe I'll just unsubscribe instead.

sandy
17th June 2015, 03:17
We all have personal agenda's and taking responsibility for the awareness and ownership of such is key to individual motivation. I agree with bstuart in that many have their personal agenda's mixed with helping mankind which is all good but to expect others to fund your desire to help others is not a doable in my books either.

SmokeyJoe1952
17th June 2015, 04:05
From someone within the Disclosure community whom has never earned nor expected a single penny for my disclosures, yes I believe it is wrong to expect payment, those wishing to make a living from disclosing is obviously suspect regarding their agenda and motives. TRUTH,JUSTICE,FREEDOM will prevail but without a price tag.

mojo
17th June 2015, 04:16
same here...not a penny... yet to put my expectations on others about receiving monetary gain seems wrong as well... looking at the excellent works of Richard Dolan and his books are not free and thats how he earns a living and he has done much in the area of disclosure and there are many others...

Cearna
17th June 2015, 04:21
When I did the Reiki course and then discovered I had done this same thing way back in the time of Atlantis, and that all of us had in fact learnt to use energies in our work, bringing down more and more energies than are in use now, I decided I wanted to be in this land of giving to others, that which is needed in the now. I called out to the Universe, for help in getting this out to as many as possible, and my answer was a bit later on, when I was asked to help Ivan to come down to be with me. Leter I called out to God to be with him and my answer was for the Lord above to come down to be at my side.

In order to begin my work, I had to give up a well paid teaching position and had little to work with. Ivan's answer was, "If this is for your work, God will provide". I am now on a Government pension, which in Australia, though lean, we can cope, if I need something, it does seem to arrive. However, the stumbling block, to me is not what I have to provide, it is the fact that unless you are on the circuit of lecturers and can pay to get a name as some one who has something to offer, the general public is not interested. Case in point our experts, on TOT, who have had coverage in some way, people flocked to us, because these were known and loved from that coverage, however, the rest of us who have been in some fields, like mojo and myself, we do not charge we are there offering and no one wants to look into whether it might be useful, unless like mojo you put yourself out there on facebook or twitter or begin to charge, because what I find is that unless you are a classified identity, what you offer is of less importance, especially in something a bit different, because "who are you to know'?

Ivan helped me to work on Tarots readings in psychic fairs, and after the first time people began to look for me when we came back again, because Ivan, also only tells what is needed to be know by each person, not what they want to know, and he has spent a great deal of time teaching the female Angels how to work at giving out these highest of energies to any one who asks for them, but who am I , no one knows me because, I was needed to go into relative seclusion to work on changing the energies so that you will have a better world, when the New Age energies are complete and we can begin to see results for what you are all doing. I charged for those Tarot readings and got results, I don't charge and no one really wants to know, since if it has to be paid for, it must be worth something if it is free, then it must be worth nothing.

This is a sore point to me, for example Sam got upset because he had to pay for work on how to reach your Higher Self, I put a thread up on this in the olden days for free and had little interest, I express some means of finding your way back to your starting points, which was Ivan's most essential work ever, given to me, and it invoked little interest - and my homeopath whom I admired greatly for his knowledge of all things spiritual, said this is the most important writing I have ever read - so I ask you what are you to do, in order to help make that difference?

bstuart
17th June 2015, 04:40
same here...not a penny... yet to put my expectations on others for receiving monetary gain seems wrong as well... looking at the excellent works of Richard Dolan yet his books are not free and thats how he earns a living and he has done much in the area of disclosure and there are many others...

I think you may misunderstand my position. I'm not opposed to authors like Richard Dolan writing a book and selling it. He has made a career as a researcher, and anyone who purchases one of his books should understand that they're buying his view on the material. Charging for a Tarot reading, as Cearna states above, is also a completely understandable thing to do. There is an equal exchange of energy taking place. However, these examples are quite different from the "personalities" presenting information fed to them from whistle-blowers (or are whistle-blowers themselves).

I think a better analogy is to imagine a scenario where Edward Snowden decided to charge reporters, and anyone else interested, a fee to look at his intelligence documents. The whole narrative would have been painted in a much different light, and it would have caused significant harm to his cause. If the purpose of the information is to unchain and aid in enlightening humanity from the PTB/systems of control, by disclosing their agenda and behind the scene activities, then you simply cannot charge money for it without raising some rather serious questions (conflict of interest, community division, etc). There are many ways to support yourself monetarily without putting up a paywall. As I mentioned before, non-profits exist for a very good reason.

Joanna
17th June 2015, 06:12
bstuart, I agree with you that Disclosure/ET related information needs to be given freely, both for the integrity of the informer, and so as not to reinforce the 3D materialistic divide of haves/have nots. No one on the planet should be denied access to information of a higher dimensional nature because they don't have enough money. This does not support higher consciousness or holism.
As a collective evolving into unity consciousness, yet where money is still needed to function in day to day 3D, it's also a growth-oriented act of giving for people to help and support others, including those who dedicate much focus and energy of their lives to lifting awareness/consciousness.
These two aspects can be met at this 'stage' by allowing the possibility for donations to people's work, without falling into the 'survival trap' of charging for information. This requires an act of trust, and also the knowing, that when you centre yourself in higher frequencies, everything necessary for your basic well-being while on the planet naturally and innately magnetizes into your life, in exactly the right amounts or kinds, at exactly the right moments, from sources that are in perfect confluence with the love that you are.
If people don't 'know' this, then they are not established in higher frequencies, and thus neither is their 'information'.
Most people at the current stage are somewhere inbetween, a mixture of both ego and higher consciousness, and hence there are a lot of fluctuations in both people's energies, and the quality of their higher connecting 'lines in' and information.
Both compassion and spotlight clarity are needed....and without dropping into the polarity energy of personal attacks etc, which only strengthens 'oppositional' (lower) vibrations around this planet.

bstuart
17th June 2015, 06:17
It hadn't occurred to me to look at it from that angle Joanna. I concur with your analysis, and appreciate the insight.

Dreamtimer
17th June 2015, 12:30
Cearna, you make an excellent point about how people think there must be value if you charge and are much less interested if something's free. Have a yard sale and sell a chair for five bucks. No prob. Leave it by the road with a sign, 'Free'. No one takes it. Must be something wrong if it's free? They're just 'hauling it away for you for free'? Who knows. People are weird. It must be the money magic thing.

grannyfranny
17th June 2015, 15:52
bstuart, I can understand what you are saying; you expressed it well. Let us separate the reality as it is versus the reality we want to be. Many in contact with ETs say that the ETs can't understand why people born on this planet have to pay for basics like food and shelter. Obviously you and many of us can agree with the ETs on this. I think it is an important goal for what we want to be.

Many people uphold Scandinavia as a good example of how to get there. I find Red Ice Radio explains the shortcomings of their approach. Basically, one loses their sovereignty. They lose their rights to be more risk taking in exchange for conformity to government imposed ideas to maintain some stability in their lives. The most imaginative and innovative folks leave Sweden to gain more chance to explore their ideas while large masses of Middle Eastern refugees flock to Sweden to gain all the freebies in this socialistic society.

Our society is in transition. I personally feel capitalism is a system of imprisonment without bars. Currently, it is struggling hard to expand its values world wide for the benefit of the few. We seem to be in a stalemate of those pathological service to self values. While many people with serve to others values are struggling for their evolving values. Many of those are the biggest whiners on the planet. They have been sucked into the capitalist traps of pop off another baby to get a raise from the government or stay on unemployment for as long as possible to avoid getting a job. These folks have all the angles figured out to avoid work and want more freebies.

Somewhere in between are the rest of the folks. If they have work that they would really enjoy doing, it must be done during non-work hours which are becoming less and less. During my lifetime we have gone from one income allowing a family to thrive to two incomes being inadequate. The prison cell is becoming smaller and smaller.

As an artist who took related work to support myself, I find great empathy for writers, garage bound inventors, spiritual seekers, etc. Trying to pursue one's personal goals within the capitalist system is tough. From my viewpoint, you seem to be aligning yourself with the capitalist system to get more freebees by turning others into your own slave class. Within the current system you have the right to not be a consumer of information which you feel is developed as predominately money making. Your rigidly worded viewpoint does not seem aligned with those that are trying, step by step, to help our world to evolve. Your viewpoint sounds ready to use a civil war as a solution rather than a collaborative approach to accomplish change peacefully.

I find your thread to be well thought out but in tone, limited in perspective with a scary potential to explode into action reminiscent of many historical rebellions. These rebellions lead to more of the same but with new rulers of the jail cells. Be careful what you do with your realizations.

Chester
17th June 2015, 16:19
Here's the scam -

First - Scare the hell out of everyone. (The setup)

Second - Convince folks you have the inside scoop (the grab)

Third - Addict them to the "intel drip-feed." (now that you "got 'em"...)

Now they're set up for the various "closes" - any of the following, a combination of two or more of the following or all of the following.

Fourth - SELL them the super secret intel which you must be approved to receive (approval gained by sending your cash first).

Fifth - SELL them "club membership" which gets you access to most of the videos and MP3s and "blog posts" for the monthly fee.

Sixth - SELL them limited time viewing of special conference events most cannot afford to attend (note the limited time viewing with Draconian warnings of "copyright violation" which will be enforced by the very beings many of these conference participants are promising to free us from).

Seventh - SELL them "Awakening Weekends" of "Revelation Conferences" where you can meet and greet (and in some case be invited to even more intimate forms of "contact" for quite hefty fees.

That anyone would expose themselves to paying to be taken advantage of (and drained in all ways imaginable) is why "others" are laughing at the masses of humanity and I cannot say I blame them.

This reveals that the supposed very defenders of Earth and Life on Earth which includes Earth Humanity are actually assisting the tightening of the screws upon Earth, all life on and in Earth and Humanity of Earth.

Bravo!!!

Chester
17th June 2015, 16:29
I appreciate your OP, and in 6 years of sharing information and evidence without advertizing or monetary gain because disclosure is important to humanity. But I believe everyone that works should be paid for their efforts. How is laboring for disclosure any different than paying for any other service? I would love to purchase better equipment to produce even better proofs and being of low income it's not possible. Please understand that I totally get what your saying but I also feel why shouldn't front line field investigations be compensated? The big time names in ufology do not support us and none is asking how they can help yet always mention they appreciate the efforts put forth. If money was not a problem I would make field investigation a full time endeavor but I don't see a way to get the support that is needed to go full time. My last thought and have thought of this many times, how would I handle getting footage that proves the ETS are visiting here, ie the so called definitive proof. There is much value in proof that shows beyond a doubt imho.

I can attest that this is true and is the number one reason I really appreciate you and what you do for us.

grannyfranny
17th June 2015, 16:50
Sam Hunter. Loved your post. Seems to me that this a "recipe" that is easy to copy from many of the religious groups here in the USA.

Chester
17th June 2015, 16:52
Sam Hunter. Loved your post. Seems to me that this a "recipe" that is easy to copy from many of the religious groups here in the USA.

Yes... and "experiencers" too.

Truth is a right, not a commodity.

Dreamtimer
17th June 2015, 16:53
If I go to any conferences, it's gonna be comicon, or jordancon, or a Star Trek related one. Might run into some off-worlders. :eyebrows:

Chester
17th June 2015, 17:12
When I did the Reiki course and then discovered I had done this same thing way back in the time of Atlantis, and that all of us had in fact learnt to use energies in our work, bringing down more and more energies than are in use now, I decided I wanted to be in this land of giving to others, that which is needed in the now.

This is a service, Cearna. You are providing an honest service and I am sure your fee for this service is known by the one who contracts you to perform the service. I then assume you perform this service to the best of your ability.

Truth is NOT a commodity. Those who sell it are worse than those who intentionally withhold it as they then become the gatekeepers of truth and as all humans are susceptible to... are able to be compromised and corrupted.

Sell services - GOOD

Sell truth - you are behaving worse than the PTBs.

Write a great book that perhaps shares truth, you are providing a service for those who wish to buy your book and see your vision of truth through the lens of their imagination.

Convince folks you are some special being selected by other special beings to drip-feed you "intel" and false hope FOR CASH is worse behavior than the PTBs.

Note here there's no name calling... there is finger pointing at behavior.

Chester
17th June 2015, 17:21
I think a better analogy is to imagine a scenario where Edward Snowden decided to charge reporters, and anyone else interested, a fee to look at his intelligence documents. The whole narrative would have been painted in a much different light, and it would have caused significant harm to his cause. If the purpose of the information is to unchain and aid in enlightening humanity from the PTB/systems of control, by disclosing their agenda and behind the scene activities, then you simply cannot charge money for it without raising some rather serious questions (conflict of interest, community division, etc). There are many ways to support yourself monetarily without putting up a paywall. As I mentioned before, non-profits exist for a very good reason.

Brilliant - Bravo!!!! Finally a perfect analogy!

What's hilarious is when I read "I am not gonna get into circular arguments" type statements (when they constantly do anyways) and yet they are playing one of the roles in the "circular vetting" element of the overall scam.

All you have to do is spend several years data mining... practice posting... get your "schtick down," come up with a story that cannot be proved (yet cannot be disproved) and then begin the sucking in of the vulnerable. In time, the paypal button is hit just enough you can afford to pay one of the graphic artits and web site designers available to other "club members" of the "Circular Verification and Vetting Club" and bammmm as long as you stay relevant to enough... and as long as your back patting is still effective enough, you can be in the game for a long long time... selling Earth down the river each and every day while pretending to be a champion for Her freeing.

Pebbles
18th June 2015, 01:29
I guess "service to self" and "service to others" gets a whole other dimension here. If we all should be of service to others it should never be an obligation to pay for information on truth, yet once truth is out and disclosed and being done fair and sincere it is worth paying for and therefore well worth being of service to others (in that case to the truth teller). Or one could just donate for the efforts. Yet, pay-to-know is equal to "service to self" IMO

Nobody should starve for efforts of getting the truth out, yet, with the right mindset and use of Law of One it should be doable to get truth out without asking people for money in order to do so. All that people are willing to donate is a luxery and comodity. I don't put truth out, nor do I work, yet I also have bills...therefore, I need to be inventive in my own way in order to eat and pay bills, and I manage with some creativity. And I do not have a lot of money (at all) , nor do I have a paypal button, but I do help others for free,to be STO and because it feels good.

So, people stating that this is not a valid point of bstuart are merely thinking in terms of STS or very 3D. donations is a free choice, obligational paying for info is not! Conflict of interest is an understatement. IMO

Ps. what about a food donation button...at least no one will starve while working :):popc: :lets make:

mojo
18th June 2015, 03:10
Pardon me for not understanding why some feel that the "laborer" is not worth their wages??? What difference is it if one asks for a donation or requests payment for a service? They are still asking for monetary assistance either way. When going to the doctors they are in service to others and we cannot pay by donation. They have a specific payment plan. It might seem that my pov is for monetary personal gain but it is not and completely understand why people ask for payment of service. The OP post uses a specific example...

I think a better analogy is to imagine a scenario where Edward Snowden decided to charge reporters

Why would payment affect laborers of truth?

then you simply cannot charge money for it without raising some rather serious questions (conflict of interest, community division, etc).

Again we have the right to either pay or not pay for a product or service. Even the spiritually enlightened profits, priests, medicine man, healers recieved payment.

grannyfranny
18th June 2015, 03:59
Here is an interesting video. First half is about money
LWX5EobEokw
One participant is is a Project Avalon member with a website http://servantoftruth.org/ and a very interesting Youtube channel which is a fascinating mosaic of interesting interviews from multiple people.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWO...KCvkmXQ/videos

JByas
18th June 2015, 06:18
Mojo, I think they are specifically speaking about "disclosure " related info only…

Services (healing, teaching,guidance etc) is request to receive something and is pay or compensation worthy.

Disclosure ( crimes against humanity, revealing technology unknown that has been kept classified and could have kept humanity from commiting crimes against this planet etc.) Is a noble cause carried out by brave individuals and puts their livelihood at risk for presenting said info is donation "can you help me feed my kids cause no one will employ me after I go public situation "



Now, I might be wrong but those are two separate sets of circumstances. I also view "disclosure" as not being entertainment, the cost for producing the platform to present the info is a valid consideration. But the "info" itself in it's entirety should be made available for all at no cost

Joanna
18th June 2015, 09:19
mojo, set payments that lock out folk short on $ for information that helps humanity as a whole doesn't support (or come from) unity consciousness. Payments for products and services is a different issue, and many alternative and/or humanitarian practitioners (for example) work with sliding scales depending on a person's ability to pay, from high to free, which respects everyone and excludes no-one.
Donations are based on a person's ability to pay - and their inclination/will to do so, which is why gifting can be a stepping stone into a more unified, caring collective. Of course, donations where feelings of obligation to pay are elicited do not fit that model! We still need to be aware, as there's plenty of psychological influencing going around.
By way of example, a human rights charity phoned recently, asking me to be part of a human rights defenders taskforce...but the catch was, you had to give a fixed monthly donation to be part of the team. That felt like emotional manipulation (even if it wasn't intended that way) to part with $, so I asked them why I should have to pay money to be part of a 'team' supporting human rights? Why make one contingent on the other? Needless to say, I didn't join. ;)

Joanna
18th June 2015, 09:52
I guess "service to self" and "service to others" gets a whole other dimension here. If we all should be of service to others it should never be an obligation to pay for information on truth, yet once truth is out and disclosed and being done fair and sincere it is worth paying for and therefore well worth being of service to others (in that case to the truth teller). Or one could just donate for the efforts. Yet, pay-to-know is equal to "service to self" IMO

Nobody should starve for efforts of getting the truth out, yet, with the right mindset and use of Law of One it should be doable to get truth out without asking people for money in order to do so. All that people are willing to donate is a luxery and comodity. I don't put truth out, nor do I work, yet I also have bills...therefore, I need to be inventive in my own way in order to eat and pay bills, and I manage with some creativity. And I do not have a lot of money (at all) , nor do I have a paypal button, but I do help others for free,to be STO and because it feels good.

So, people stating that this is not a valid point of bstuart are merely thinking in terms of STS or very 3D. donations is a free choice, obligational paying for info is not! Conflict of interest is an understatement. IMO

Ps. what about a food donation button...at least no one will starve while working :):popc: :lets make:


Pebbles, there's a step beyond the 'Service to Self v. Service to Others' model which the awakening community needs to understand - because when you view/think through STO/STS as an either/or, you are invoking dualism and giving/focusing your energy into the polarity 'game'. I used to 'think' that way too, until I felt deeply what Source is, what Love is, in my own being. Since then, I view through the lens of Service to Source/Love - or more than that, Being Love, from which energies of 'service' naturally arise.
Once you make that your compass, the dualism of STO v. STS becomes irrelevant, and limiting, because you know that all energy given/sent in service to Source goes precisely where it is needed, at the right time, in the right way - for your own highest good and for the highest good of All. Makes things very simple. :)
Be(a)ware of those who invoke the STO/STS divide, while saying they come from unity consciousness, and of channeled info and/or entities that promote STO/STS, in the name of Source/Creator/Unity. They are perpetuating the illusion of duality, when true growth is in wholeness, trusting yourself to flow with Source, and that your words, actions and energies will therefore bring through love, peace and harmony, wherever it is required.

Tanta
18th June 2015, 10:35
Pardon me for not understanding why some feel that the "laborer" is not worth their wages???

Why would payment affect laborers of truth?



Nice example using Snowden.

And Mojo...imagine this

"Hello World. This is Edward Snowden, I have super secret NSA (and whatever else) documents which affect countries and people globally. For just 4,99 a month you can start a beginners course on some (so just some) of this amazing information, potentially leading you up to masters course..."

If you heard that from him, how would it be resonating to you? What kind of vibration would you prescribe Snowden has?

I mean really, THINK, FEEL, WHATEVER....


Would you pay to read and hear about Snowden doc?

Tanta
18th June 2015, 11:09
Nice example using Snowden.



To be exact here, as i stated in one of my other posts....

Snowden giving Greenwald all the info (as it was officially stated i believe) is giving Gleen a "monopoly over information". Something i greatly dislike. Ofc we do not know the full scope of the info neither who all has it or has seen it.

At the start the info was published in physical mediums which CHARGED to be read/viewed. That is "paying for their work" (to compile the info). But there was no warning from Snowden about prohibition to share that info in any manner or form anywhere else. No one had to pay to see the info. I know i did not. I did not subscribe to Guardian. I read Guardians online edition for free. Other sites also made sure of that it can be read for free. There were NO warnings about being persecuted to the full extent of federal law and such bla bla... (not that we care much here for US federal law)

Gleen also setup The Intercept later, which has a questionable financial backing, but there is no subscription to it, but it is (as far as i know) free to read. Yes it is far from a perfect situation.

You can also consider how it would be like if WikiLeaks charged for info...yes they do ask for donation money and sell tshirt and stuff...but they wont make an "exclusive info" only available to an "exclusive wallet" since if they do they will be torn apart and by by goes their CREDIBILITY....same goes for the alternative media researcher(s) (if he has any left)

Dreamtimer
18th June 2015, 11:45
In America we have the church of Scientology. You have to shell out 50K just to get each level of teaching. And this country officially recognizes the organization as a religion. It also has it's own prisons and when they're out at sea.....rather lawless except for their own laws.

If you want to talk about amorally charging people for 'truth' we could go on for aeons.

It's said that spiritual gifts are to be shared freely. Many charge.

Shadowself has said more than once that she doesn't pay for any of her information. Although I suspect she's a good bit smarter than me, I think I can manage to find out quite a bit without paying. Donation buttons are not obligatory.

It's a good debate. I always check someone/thing out before I decide to donate in any way. I like to get past the initial emotions or excitement and then evaluate the substance.

Pebbles
18th June 2015, 12:47
On second thought a pointless discussion

I guess the whole thing comes down to honesty and being genuine, Some people simply do need money and ask for donations at free will, which to me is a good and honest thing, cause when one is honest about their situation it is up to others whether to donate and if it feels ok to do so.
Demanding money and for the (unverifiable) truth to be told, now, that is wrong!

I also tend to doubt people like that. However, after thinking about the whole situation, It is fair to say that we should not have any interest in knowing the disclosure details since the goal of all that: is to catch the bad guys and change the world. Therefore if it is about disclosure, sooner or later we will know it anyway as it is a goal for a better world. :unity:Which makes this whole discussion pointless. The truth will be clear as soon it has happened. All we need to do as "human slaves" to this planet is rising our vibration and being of STO in order to have success in this whole plan.
Which was and is the initial message we've got for free. So that makes anything else futile.

Whether it is true or not, if we keep doing what we really need to do (being of STO and get our vibrations up) it will always be a win-win. So maybe we should stop putting the focus on wanting to know so badly what is not important for us to know anyway. :interview: As long this disclosure and truth happens and the bad guys will be catched and the world will change, it is all good.
Besides, who wants to hear all the horror stories first hand anyway?? :frantic:
It will come to an end or not...either way, it has nothing to do with us personally, yet the real message (STO) has everything to do with ourselves.

So, on second thought, the more we are busy waiting :confused:, wanting :interview:, arguing :argue: and longing :pc: for truth and disclosure ,

the less we will be busy with the real essence of our part in this whole thing :meditating:.

So what if it is all a test??
What if certain people need to be asking for money? as there are plenty of people that will only listen once they paid (very 3D) .
The only goal is , to reach as many people as possible with the truth about the big picture. Details will come out then anyway.... So I guess we should stop the doubts , the arguments and the search for wrights and wrongs...and just trust the process and give it our own efforts, while the truth tellers are doing their jobs.....

Ps. When I thought about this, I felt relieved and stupid at the same time, for being so caught up again in this 3D trap of discussions and getting pulled out of the real goal, and that is how simpel and quick it happens....:flag:

Chester
18th June 2015, 13:24
Pebbles, there's a step beyond the 'Service to Self v. Service to Others' model which the awakening community needs to understand - because when you view/think through STO/STS as an either/or, you are invoking dualism and giving/focusing your energy into the polarity 'game'. I used to 'think' that way too, until I felt deeply what Source is, what Love is, in my own being. Since then, I view through the lens of Service to Source/Love - or more than that, Being Love, from which energies of 'service' naturally arise.
Once you make that your compass, the dualism of STO v. STS becomes irrelevant, and limiting, because you know that all energy given/sent in service to Source goes precisely where it is needed, at the right time, in the right way - for your own highest good and for the highest good of All. Makes things very simple. :)
Be(a)ware of those who invoke the STO/STS divide, while saying they come from unity consciousness, and of channeled info and/or entities that promote STO/STS, in the name of Source/Creator/Unity. They are perpetuating the illusion of duality, when true growth is in wholeness, trusting yourself to flow with Source, and that your words, actions and energies will therefore bring through love, peace and harmony, wherever it is required.

GREAT POST! and I have been waiting for another to point this out. Thanks Joanna

Heard this one..."Service to everything"

No polarity found there.

No duality.

No third parties measuring if your service is overly self oriented or that you are so selfless you get a title such as "saint" or "angel" or something put in front of your name (as if the High Being we are would do that anyways).

No third parties pointing out your "percentage" based on a paradigm most of us wish to see a thing of the past while waving a "Law of One" book in your face that is used and reinterpreted by a self anointed priesthood to insidiously hold the paradigm of polarity firmly in place - who wins? The PTCTB (the Powers that Continue to Be) who are saying, "Thank You."

Chester
18th June 2015, 13:39
You can also consider how it would be like if WikiLeaks charged for info...yes they do ask for donation money and sell tshirt and stuff...but they wont make an "exclusive info" only available to an "exclusive wallet" since if they do they will be torn apart and by by goes their CREDIBILITY....same goes for the alternative media researcher(s) (if he has any left)

Excellent distinctions Tanta.

I also agree that the way Richard Dolan does it (for example) has a completely different aura to it. I have (and was happy to pay for) three of his books. There's one thing to being a history major in college, then going into a career researching and then writing books that are filled with sourcing which can be verified by anyone... develop the confidence in readers that you actually have a clue such that then you are able to offer well founded opinions.

But to take multiple LSD trips while cleaning house and then one day telling folks to beware of the 150 million cloned zombies waiting for the bat signal so that they come out and bite you turning you into one is and then suggesting that if you pay $100" for a special limited time viewing of you standing on some stage where half the time you make jokes that no one laughs at and you have to explain to folks that it was a joke suggests the "discloser" (sadly) is the likely joke.

Soooo... all I am pointing out is two examples of an extreme... So (my opinion only) clearly one end of the spectrum is taking the high road in what they are doing... the other cashes in on generating a high profile status, scaring the hell out of the vulnerable, addicting them to the need for intel (cha-ching) and promising (for pay... cha-ching) access to false hope and/or repackaged perennial philosophy as if anyone has a copyright on that.

CeeTee9
18th June 2015, 20:20
Pebbles, there's a step beyond the 'Service to Self v. Service to Others' model which the awakening community needs to understand - because when you view/think through STO/STS as an either/or, you are invoking dualism and giving/focusing your energy into the polarity 'game'. I used to 'think' that way too, until I felt deeply what Source is, what Love is, in my own being. Since then, I view through the lens of Service to Source/Love - or more than that, Being Love, from which energies of 'service' naturally arise.
Once you make that your compass, the dualism of STO v. STS becomes irrelevant, and limiting, because you know that all energy given/sent in service to Source goes precisely where it is needed, at the right time, in the right way - for your own highest good and for the highest good of All. Makes things very simple. :)
Be(a)ware of those who invoke the STO/STS divide, while saying they come from unity consciousness, and of channeled info and/or entities that promote STO/STS, in the name of Source/Creator/Unity. They are perpetuating the illusion of duality, when true growth is in wholeness, trusting yourself to flow with Source, and that your words, actions and energies will therefore bring through love, peace and harmony, wherever it is required.
I agree Joanna and precisely why everything should be free, IMHO. Perhaps a new acronym like STL (Service to Love/Life) should be used (given that STS is taken to mean "Service to Self") to infer the unity conscience. We are born with no material things and will leave this world with no material things so why do we feel it makes sense that we should have to pay for material things when, clearly, this system is designed to create division, separation and a world of the haves and have nots.

Is it really so hard to conceive of a world where we all do what we love to do and/or do best to contribute to the pool of goods and services that are necessary to sustain good, comfortable, enjoyable, and healthy living for all? I guess it is for those who still believe they are entitled to more than others because they "worked hard for what they earned" as opposed to those who weren't so lucky to be born into a family, community, or country that enabled them to do the same. Perhaps this mentality is indicative of those who believe that most people are bad, lazy, irresponsible and/or don't care about doing what's right as opposed to those who believe that most people are good, want to work, be responsible and do the right things.

Yes, that's not the world we currently live in. I get it. But it could be if we started focusing our attention on ways to make it happen instead of on more reasons why it could never happen. If we truly are "Creators" of our world, our destiny, then why do we not seem to want to create a world where everyone is free, healthy, happy and lives in peace and harmony with each other and the planet? The world we have created thus far is a far cry from that world. Makes me wonder if any of us are truly sane.

grannyfranny
19th June 2015, 01:50
:shocked:The next few years will see many houses with drive by appeal. Built on sand, they will collapse for lack of a sound foundation. Leaders lacking internal spiritual work commensurate with their public performance will lose their following. Don't fall for it or get out when you wake up.

Sam presented an amazing and true "scam" that exemplifies this process. But you are not an innocent "victim." If you get caught in such a disappointment, it is a lesson about your own level of spiritual development. Give thanks for the lesson, grow and move on with your life.

Don't support Koch Brothers products. Watch a few videos about them if you don't know their political antics and express your moral/ spiritual power at the grocery store: https://www.facebook.com/notes/boycott-and-defeat-koch-industries/koch-industriesgeorgia-pacific-products-to-avoid-list-of-alternatives-attached/153902421342335.

Some corporations are already getting the meme and changing tactics to maintain their power. Don't fall for it. For example DQ has changed their identification as fast food to "fan" food. Bank America is trying to overcome their bankster image with ads about helping small businesses.

Stop shopping at Walmart figuring you are smart consumer buying for less. You have heard how they mistreat employees and you are tainting your spiritual growth and development. You are as much a puppeteer as the Congress people accepting their PAC money.

There are many things like this that will show your spiritual growth. Don't just sit there complaining "give me, give me." That is just the way you have been trained for generations to accept social engineering. Empower yourself.

Look how imaginative we humans can be
pAHSKVX5K4c

Joanna
19th June 2015, 03:27
I agree Joanna and precisely why everything should be free, IMHO. Perhaps a new acronym like STL (Service to Love/Life) should be used (given that STS is taken to mean "Service to Self") to infer the unity conscience. We are born with no material things and will leave this world with no material things so why do we feel it makes sense that we should have to pay for material things when, clearly, this system is designed to create division, separation and a world of the haves and have nots.

Is it really so hard to conceive of a world where we all do what we love to do and/or do best to contribute to the pool of goods and services that are necessary to sustain good, comfortable, enjoyable, and healthy living for all? I guess it is for those who still believe they are entitled to more than others because they "worked hard for what they earned" as opposed to those who weren't so lucky to be born into a family, community, or country that enabled them to do the same. Perhaps this mentality is indicative of those who believe that most people are bad, lazy, irresponsible and/or don't care about doing what's right as opposed to those who believe that most people are good, want to work, be responsible and do the right things.

Yes, that's not the world we currently live in. I get it. But it could be if we started focusing our attention on ways to make it happen instead of on more reasons why it could never happen. If we truly are "Creators" of our world, our destiny, then why do we not seem to want to create a world where everyone is free, healthy, happy and lives in peace and harmony with each other and the planet? The world we have created thus far is a far cry from that world. Makes me wonder if any of us are truly sane.

CeeTee9...let's go for it...STL! And Sam, Service to Everything.

This is the next stage of consciousness evolution...because if folk have to keep measuring/assessing whether their thoughts/words/actions are STS or STO, then they simply do not know yet that they are Love, they are Self-as-an-expression-of-Source. When we're in that place, we don't have to ask, because we can feel and are one with every vibration we radiate. But if people keep opposing 'self' and 'others' they will keep feeding the sense of 'small ego self' rather than merging that small sense of self with their One-Self/Source Self, higher self, whatever you want to call it, which knows there is no separation. In that knowing, polarities just evaporate, like a lot of hot air. ;)

Of course, to be able to Know oneself as Love, and that Love is the central unity energy of Source/Creator, does also mean dropping that Love is a 'distortion' (such as is stated in the Law of One material)....because if folk believe that Love 'distorts your ions', then they're already in separation viewing, and their energy flow will go off at a 'distorting angle' rather than through unity. That's what caused polarity in the first place.....and perpetuates it.....

Chester
19th June 2015, 04:40
One of the important aspects of generating a profit if your presence is primarily on the internet involves "branding."

When you see folks hitting the scene and sharing their experiences, even writing a book, maybe they have site or blog and maybe they have a donate button - I got no issue... lots of folks out there like that.

When they begin hiring professional graphic artists to create banners with their logo and then blast those banners across all the sites their "story" appears, this isn't someone who has the best interests of Earth and Her inhabitants foremost in their mind IMO. Its someone trying to make their "persona" a brand. Soon you see professional sites and blogs. Notice the banner... the logo... branding branding branding. Their persona soon becomes bigger than Coca-Cola. Those who might have studied the human psyche are very aware as to how this effects the sub-conscious. Some folks catch on and see the light... but there are masses of the vulnerable and they get sucked in.

Big difference - true, human.. make some mistakes experiencers...

Then the sharks that only care about sucking in the masses, achieving a branded status such that they develop a cult following... once they achieve critical mass and have a large enough penetration of the "market," they are always ensured that there's plenty of new dupes to replace the ones who finally begin to see the inconsistencies and/or lies and/or maniacal and relentless self-defensiveness and/or "delays in your salvation."

Joanna
19th June 2015, 08:21
Also remember, folk's motivations are often mixed, and fame can (and often does) unbalance people who started out with noble intentions and genuine gifts. So can I suggest here, where you feel/perceive that has occurred, send that soul love, mercy and healing, from your heart....in the spirit of service to everything.... :love:

lcam88
19th June 2015, 15:07
Maybe I'm off topic here, but charging for disclosure is an ancient tradition practiced by religious even till today. To pay to go an kneel before a divine stone or the likes, in many ways is very similar: Someone or some group claiming rights to artifact or information and requiring payment thereof as some type of rite of passage.

Paywalls in the NY Times or Wall Street Journal are much the same. You can pay to get their spin on current events that somehow may align you with the goddess in the financial or political scenes.

Perhaps payments made for the upkeep of institution is actually a valid consideration in these cases.

And even commercial type "for profit" fronts that may require payment for privileged use, with the flashy banners, in my opinion, is ok too. Even if the information disclosed is completely based on fabricated even propaganda type junk; entertainment value is worthy of compensation too, even pornsters and religious leaders deserve compensation for their efforts, by those who find some value or comfort deserving of consideration.

But, since I don't find any value, entertainment or otherwise, in the aforementioned offerings, I prefer not to buy in. That is my choice.

What I do have a problem with, is an obligation to make payment for benefits or other offerings that I don't want or need.

And while I may find guiding the dumbed down amassed herds towards the proverbial cliff of the sensationalistic sound-byte to be an appalling practice, that is actually a different issue. I do not have a TV at home for that reason.

ctiger2
19th June 2015, 15:28
I personally have no problem with people charging money for work they do. It's not like all Disclosure information being revealed is all true. It sounds like there's massive amounts of purposeful disinfo and some people are using much more due diligence in what they release. That takes a lot of work vetting sources and corroborating the information. A lot of work. I wish it were that everything was true and you could just release the info in massive dumps, but that just isn't the case. I mean, we're talking about the single most important event in modern human history unveiling right before our eyes. There's too much money and power at stake to just allow it without a fight.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 16:29
I mean, we're talking about the single most important event in modern human history unveiling right before our eyes. There's too much money and power at stake to just allow it without a fight.

I suppose the above statement is indeed a valid argument to position as an appeal to enhance morality. Personally, I am as yet unaware of an event with the magnitude as you are claiming, as something external to me. I am not even sure we are referring to the same event, much less how money and power may have some type of stake in the revelation thereof. Just out of curiosity, what event are you referring to?

And I do apologize, I haven't read the entire thread just yet. I've read the initial posting and perhaps the first 3 or 4 comments only. I have spent some time thinking about what Sam Hunter was saying and how I felt about it all.

And even while considering your point, ctiger2, at this point in human history the stage is set the way it is. Vetting information is a requirement for any good journalist and it has been made considerably much harder simply because of the volume of stuff out there. There is so much happening around the world that many things just aren't covered at all. I would contend that even atrocities that would make blood boil, don't get coverage in some cases.

The inverse of that scenario is also quite plausible to understand: if I had been the center of a great revelation to be (or being) made to humanity (as you claim) and understanding the way things are, and the truth being of actual importance, I would find a way that makes sense for the revelation of those truths to be actually meaningful.

The very contention that there is confusion to neutralized such a truth, presuming that an effort had indeed been made to reveal that truth, is also a contention for the claimed effort itself. Especially, if you make such a large claim as "being the single most important event".

Just for context of what I mean, almost everything I hear in the news is supported circumstantially at best, I cannot say I actually trust in the ethics of modern day journalism. Take Malaysia 370 for example: I do not know that such a flight actually even took off? All we have are airport records and claims/pictures of families searching for their loved ones, but both of those are quite possible to stage as part of a hollywood movie; I haven't taken the time to actually vet those claims. Why the cynicism? Well, wasn't everyone also willing to accept Mother Theresa for what the Catholic church presented her to be? Wasn't it the vetting done by a journalist that revealed what could only be called a sinister plot? There is no real way to discern what is true without a new level of scrutiny nobody can really maintain. Call it an information arms race of sorts.

To me there really only is a view to entertainment/sensationalistic value as a plausible way to rationalize claims this big.

Chester
19th June 2015, 16:41
Maybe I'm off topic here, but charging for disclosure is an ancient tradition practiced by religious even till today. To pay to go an kneel before a divine stone or the likes, in many ways is very similar: Someone or some group claiming rights to artifact or information and requiring payment thereof as some type of rite of passage.

Paywalls in the NY Times or Wall Street Journal are much the same. You can pay to get their spin on current events that somehow may align you with the goddess in the financial or political scenes.

Perhaps payments made for the upkeep of institution is actually a valid consideration in these cases.

And even commercial type "for profit" fronts that may require payment for privileged use, with the flashy banners, in my opinion, is ok too. Even if the information disclosed is completely based on fabricated even propaganda type junk; entertainment value is worthy of compensation too, even pornsters and religious leaders deserve compensation for their efforts, by those who find some value or comfort deserving of consideration.

But, since I don't find any value, entertainment or otherwise, in the aforementioned offerings, I prefer not to buy in. That is my choice.

What I do have a problem with, is an obligation to make payment for benefits or other offerings that I don't want or need.

And while I may find guiding the dumbed down amassed herds towards the proverbial cliff of the sensationalistic sound-byte to be an appalling practice, that is actually a different issue. I do not have a TV at home for that reason.

Yes... and you appear to be a sovereign being who is able to exercise sound discernment and who makes wise choices.

What about those who demonstrate they are under a massive spell and their sub-conscious propels them to stick like glue to the next savior who will soon be signing a contract with a well known toy company for the release of their "action figure" and in the meantime, the real and organized powers that be (at the board level) are happy to suggest to the CEO of the toy company to sign the contract! All because this enhances the strength of the fortress of their paradigm where the masses are massively de-powered. It starts with the persona... that then goes into branding and using all sorts of networks of circular verification and then comes the coffee mugs, t-shirts, sports caps, lighters, key chains and... soon - the comic books, the action figures and sooooon... the video game!

Chester
19th June 2015, 16:52
I personally have no problem with people charging money for work they do. It's not like all Disclosure information being revealed is all true. It sounds like there's massive amounts of purposeful disinfo and some people are using much more due diligence in what they release. That takes a lot of work vetting sources and corroborating the information. A lot of work. I wish it were that everything was true and you could just release the info in massive dumps, but that just isn't the case. I mean, we're talking about the single most important event in modern human history unveiling right before our eyes. There's too much money and power at stake to just allow it without a fight.

If I work within the framework established by a legal system where I create "art films" that feature sexual acts in a very soft and non-explicit way and I sell these films and make a living at it... is this ok or not?

If within this same legal framework I create and sell graphic films which are clearly degrading of the female... is this ok or not?

Do not make a mistake and think that I am implying what my view would be in either of these cases.

What I am asking is... should we be allowed to review the materials and share with others our opinions about these materials from the viewpoint of... is one or the other or both likely harmful to others? Who would those others be? Would an accurate word for those at greater risk be "the vulnerable?"

Orrrrr, should we all take the view that everyone is free on their own to decide for themselves what they wish to expose themselves to and thus there should be laws made in society (not private forums by the way who should be allowed to determine their own rule set) that prevent others from stating their views as to what may be harmful and why?

I ask this question because I am truly on the fence about all this. Part of me desires to ride off into the sunset and live my otherwise blissful life and care nothing of what may befall anyone else.

I am truly at the "dilemma stage" here. I hope folks will respond to this.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 16:52
What about those who demonstrate they are under a massive spell and their sub-conscious propels them to stick like glue to the next savior...

That is a good question and you have posed many positions that are quite interesting indeed.

I don't have the answer to your question.

But maybe it's equally fitting to ask why it's important to consider "John Doe" if he is pleased where he finds himself. Perhaps it's more important to think about the "John Doe" who is waking up. I like this forum because it seems to be a partial answer to that.

It appears you have included elements from some of my other postings. I'm flattered. And thanks for that. :)

EDIT (The dilemma):

Freedom

Should an individual have the freedom to bring about his own demise? Is it worth the cost, in freedom to all, to try and protect a cohort from something that might actually be necessary for their growth? (Oh the loaded question :) hahahaha)

For consideration, I submit the notion of brush fires in Australia. For the longest time Australians where fearful for their destructive potential and people actively sought to suppress these fires by any and all means. The brush got thicker and thicker until one day, by chance lightening struck off one of these fires and it could not be controlled. The result was that everything was burnt much more intensely than if otherwise if fires had been more regular. 100 year old trees that had lived through dozens of other fires, killed...

Personally, and under my own mental dispositions including belief, experience and reasoning, think freedom is more important than impositions for ones own good.

Chester
19th June 2015, 18:01
Freedom

Should an individual have the freedom to bring about his own demise? Is it worth the cost, in freedom to all, to try and protect a cohort from something that might actually be necessary for their growth? (Oh the loaded question :) hahahaha)

For consideration, I submit the notion of brush fires in Australia. For the longest time Australians where fearful for their destructive potential and people actively sought to suppress these fires by any and all means. The brush got thicker and thicker until one day, by chance lightening struck off one of these fires and it could not be controlled. The result was that everything was burnt much more intensely than if otherwise if fires had been more regular. 100 year old trees that had lived through dozens of other fires, killed...

Personally, and under my own mental dispositions including belief, experience and reasoning, think freedom is more important than impositions for ones own good.

Yet what about when this spills over to exposing and infecting your own children? This gets really tricky and frankly, I truly have not made a solid decision about this... Its a real dilemma.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 18:49
Perhaps no solid decision regarding children can really ever be made as a final heuristic we may live by (the sweeping decision). In fact I despise heuristics in general, makes me think of organized religion.

Parents have an instinctive response to protect children and its only over time that they relinquish that instinctive response as children grow up. We are less inclined to break out the band-aid and anti-septic when a teen son trips over while crowing at the girl next door, for example.

Some types of attacks made on adults will still provoke their parents to be protective even knowing their children are adults.

But parents shouldn't be required to relinquish their freedom to be protective of their children, such a thing is tantamount to denying them their humanity.

All of that said, perhaps the best protective measures that may be taken are not necessarily restrictive in nature, but an educative process. Sometimes restrictions may just be necessary, no doubt, and the saddest scenario of all is when it is necessary and there is nothing we can do about it.

At this point, I suspect you have stretched the argument of this thread beyond its natural limit, if I may say so. I hardly expect a parent to finance a pre-teen child in an endeavor to subscribe to Penthouse online, if you get my notion. The educative process there being, earn your money and decide how best... These types of decisions are probably quite obvious to the most common of folk. No dilemma right?

Dreamtimer
19th June 2015, 19:31
We're talking about disclosure. Also, availability of info. Some could be harmful.

Snowden has been brought up. Great example IMO.

I'd love to see all of it released and all of us analyse and debate it and decide what to do. Of course, that's completely unrealistic. There's a lot of info that could put people in danger. And we're not that good at analyzing and debating. Look at how many people talk about things like secession and marching on Washington.

Snowden's in a very tough position. He has to find someone to help him do a controlled release.

Why is he in such danger? Why does this happen to whistleblowers? It's not just governments that want information kept secret.

In the disclosure world there are a lot of people who make their living investigating and reporting. The info they offer is often not their own and the sources wish to remain unseen.

Who needs to be protected? Sources.

Who else? The audience? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Seems you're already taking steps to help form a sort of discloser evaluator. There's only so much you can do.

Dreamtimer
19th June 2015, 19:46
No offense to anyone's politics...

Sam, your statement about "Circular Verification and Vetting Clubs" so made me think of republicans. They seem to operate under the principle of "keep saying stuff over and over and people believe it." For example, the constant coupling of 911 and Iraq. I picture them in my mind standing around in a circle all repeating the same talking points. My friend George is currently using the same "these people" and "cops are gonna be afraid to do their jobs" lines he used last decade, and the decade before that, and the decade before that.... Yet he seems convinced his thinking is new and original.

Of course, this group is just one side of the two-party coin doing this.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 19:53
There is also an element of credibility related to disclosures being discussed.

We like to give whistleblowers like Snowden the benefit of doubt because he appears to have taken so much risk. But we don't actually know. He may just be part of a disinformation campaign in the ranks of government and that may be why the information he releases is "selected". <shrug/>

Personally I have looked at some of the information his entrusted journalist friend has released and find it quite plausible. The technical details of what I've seen are sound and so I think the information is quite authentic. But even then, it doesn't mean he isn't just "doing his job" as mandated by some superior officer as part of their internal power struggle between "ruling" factions. It doesn't even indicate that the faction sponsoring his activities are not also behind the current world order and their plans to destroy the image of Santa Claus, or whatever.

Certainly being required to pay for that disclosure defeats the purpose the strategy being executed; a paywall means nothing in context of Snowden information. In fact a paywall might actually only serve to reduce his credibility.

But regardless of my speculation, it does not change the fact that people are attracted to this information for personal reasons, including entertainment. Curiosity to know what a man has apparently endangered his freedom for the sake of sharing. His entrusted journalist friend obviously receives a salary; someone is paying him to do what he does.

Queue theater curtain close...

The world moves on and really, things continue as they where. The ripple of information regarding how privacy has diminished and what to do about it is just as far beyond our grasp as before. But we may get comfort from the idea than in some underground facility at a little known location, a man with vitamin D deficiency showing in his eyes may be looking into a computer screen to evaluate the banker suicide of the week and the Snowden revelation made so he may further contemplating the next hack he can make against his opponent.

Dreamtimer
19th June 2015, 19:55
We pay for news. The press is our "fourth estate". How many people even work to protect good investigative journalism?

People watch VNRs and think it's actual news.

Representatives vote on bills and we think they actually read/wrote the legislation. Did they? Maybe not.

We have a lot of serious problems. No news here. Until someone forces me to pay for info from someone like DW, I'm not gonna worry about it.

lcam88
19th June 2015, 20:02
Indeed something that really eiks me is when a journalist is roughed up by players in a regional conflict. Whether it be the Ukraine, Israel but especially where I live. There almost seems to be an incentive to poor journalism going on.

Chester
19th June 2015, 22:09
All of that said, perhaps the best protective measures that may be taken are not necessarily restrictive in nature, but an educative process.


Thank you... you have found the mark!

So to educate someone about something should require the educator to back up what they are saying with facts and proof and validations of their opinions and arguments. This then requires free speech... and then we run into the problem when the speech (as I will freely admit of myself sometimes) becomes pounding.

All dilemmas presented by the world of polarity where perhaps the best place to be is found somewhere in that magical middle but which also happens to be a specific location few can actually agree upon.

Tricky.


We like to give whistleblowers like Snowden the benefit of doubt because he appears to have taken so much risk. But we don't actually know. He may just be part of a disinformation campaign in the ranks of government and that may be why the information he releases is "selected". <shrug/>


Yes... how do we know "Snowden" is not a pure disinfo agent? What has he told us that has not been already totally suspected? What is not being told that might be of far more significance?

And so if each of us is isolated such that we cannot discuss these matters openly, we have to rely all and only ourselves in seeing all possible aspects of all possible matters.

This is why (for me) it is important that we can have places where we can discuss these matters openly and freely. What is equally important is that these same places are the places where the vulnerable that suck the TEET of false hope gather as well.

Chester
19th June 2015, 22:18
We're talking about disclosure. Also, availability of info. Some could be harmful.

Snowden has been brought up. Great example IMO.

I'd love to see all of it released and all of us analyse and debate it and decide what to do. Of course, that's completely unrealistic. There's a lot of info that could put people in danger. And we're not that good at analyzing and debating. Look at how many people talk about things like secession and marching on Washington.

Snowden's in a very tough position. He has to find someone to help him do a controlled release.

Why is he in such danger? Why does this happen to whistleblowers? It's not just governments that want information kept secret.

In the disclosure world there are a lot of people who make their living investigating and reporting. The info they offer is often not their own and the sources wish to remain unseen.

Who needs to be protected? Sources.

Who else? The audience? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Seems you're already taking steps to help form a sort of discloser evaluator. There's only so much you can do.

There's also a lot of lies. there's complete paradigms out there which are nothing but lies.

So we put everything out there and there will be groups whose "paradigm" conflicts with... indeed cannot exist in the same 3d universe as another group's paradigm.

How does all that get sorted?

See this thread as an idea -

http://jandeane81.com/threads/7161-How-should-anyone-rate-the-validity-of-anyone-s-unprovable-other-worldy-experiences

Note, I spoke with a successful business man from Houston yesterday for several hours in my home office here in Dallas. I pitched him the idea of a true, alternative media industry watchdog site. He loved the idea but was interested in how it would be profitable.

See the conflict of interest there? My view is that it couldn't be. It would have to be non-profit and provide open books. All individuals involved in the project must also be squeaky clean.

He loved the idea but would not invest unless it could generate profit.

Fortunately... he gave me the number of a friend of his that might be. :winner:

Chester
19th June 2015, 22:20
No offense to anyone's politics...

Sam, your statement about "Circular Verification and Vetting Clubs" so made me think of republicans. They seem to operate under the principle of "keep saying stuff over and over and people believe it." For example, the constant coupling of 911 and Iraq. I picture them in my mind standing around in a circle all repeating the same talking points. My friend George is currently using the same "these people" and "cops are gonna be afraid to do their jobs" lines he used last decade, and the decade before that, and the decade before that.... Yet he seems convinced his thinking is new and original.

Of course, this group is just one side of the two-party coin doing this.

Both US parties do this... all the world's political parties do this. That's why some in the Alternative Community Industry have recognized the benefits in doing this and have adopted the MO.

Chester
19th June 2015, 22:30
We pay for news. The press is our "fourth estate". How many people even work to protect good investigative journalism?

People watch VNRs and think it's actual news.

Representatives vote on bills and we think they actually read/wrote the legislation. Did they? Maybe not.

We have a lot of serious problems. No news here. Until someone forces me to pay for info from someone like DW, I'm not gonna worry about it.

There are still attempts to get as close to truthful news and editorial comment out

hA2BzqF24SE

sinzzer
20th June 2015, 10:49
What my opinion is, we dont coorperate.
We dont play it smart, together we could play it smart.
But we dont do that now.
So the only actions we see are the outcomes of this system.

I remember when COrey came on this forum, i saw him replied on comments for months!!
That takes time and energy.
And i saw nobody said, YOU KNOW WHAT!
Lets find a way to make money because you wil get screwd big time sooner or later.
Ooo you want to be in the public???
hhhm let me see... that means no income from normal work because all will see you like a moron.
That means you need to get extra money to live, sleep and eat to live.
Come on people he is sharing stuff, he will get screwd big time.
Lets support him and think of ways of how to continue this and get wiser from all this.
I heard no soul....

But the only thing i seee, hey Corey what is this and what this and what planet this and what alien that.
Maybe its just me, but am a chess player and i think four steps a head.
And where smoke is, is fire.
And he brought the smoke, so lets look for the fire.
But then we must first secure the smoke, otherwise we cant find the fire!

Or another ecample, the videos of Mojo.
I might be one of the people who can said, yes they are spaceships.
And he film them.
And why i can say that, because i see them also.
Yes i see them, last week was proof that i see spaceships here.
And no, am talking about real spacecrafts.
I saw it, i saw it 100%
Last week one materialized right in front of me, like it came out of a warpspeed.
And fly for 8 seconds or something in half a moon around me.
It had no tail and was not flying in a straight line.
Imagine a speedboat on high speed going over the waves? Well soemthing like that.

And the shape looked like the starttrek enterprise, and very bright.
And nooooo that was no airplane, meteor or what ever.
I saw this real good.
And i saw more and film allot, just like Mojo or any other witness in this forum.

But who said, HEY lets work together and get better equipment to get better videos??
Nobody.
And no offense, but that is just the mentality around this phenomena, no organisation everywhere.
Everyone is w8ting for someone to film star trek above there home, while he barbeque with some aliens.
And in the meantime more then 7 miljard sheeps are w8ting for a miracle and let a small group of elite have all the fun and the truth.

There for some people get forced to walk the paths what others made for them, alone you cant do much.
And othrs get lost in it, because of the money.
Like what happend with the roswell case is just a shame.
But david wilcock comes on tv, and everyone on tv get paid.
it cost money to get on tv, so one way or another he will make money in one way or another.
But i cant see his case the same as COrey for ecample, if he did all for the money.
Then he would have started from day one, or he could have walked many other paths to make money.
We all can see he is smart enough to have different ways.
Same count for Mojo or all other witnes here.
Am here in this forum for more then one year and i only saw one time one guy, were i thought, ok maybe he is looking for views or something.
But i cant see that as making money to be honest, because i know how that is.
I also make videos and upload them, i see how much someone can make.
And you need to be third phase of the moon to make something.

But how me or the others do, is just different.
We take risk to go outside to meet the unknown, they coould easily be hostile.
How do we know.
But we stil go for the truth and accept everything we get.
That means social structure can fall in because others might not believe you, or that someone put to much time in that "hobby", what might irritate the partner.
And beside that, everyone get nuked on the internet with negative vibes.
And only because we want to share what we see or know.

And i dont know what corey is doing now, and how he make money or something.
But i know for sure that he give information for free, for months and i only look at that.
What is now is a possible outcomes of those actions.
So he did what we all did, share our information.
And ofcourse other will use that to make money.
And that system will always stay like that.
Until we wake up and realize, we are on the same boat and we need to row together to come forwards.

Everyone is important, everyone!!
And not only the people who tell the story or bring the footage.
If people work together, think of a common solution then al can win.
Not only youtube, google or the big media companys.
We loose because we use them.
I think its time, to bypass them and use our own safe and secure P2P network.
The old days are over, MUFOn, YOUTUBE, Sites who have "UFO" news.

We all know there is something, but only if we play smart then we can find the truth.
For ecample, if someone brings information then the information needs to be for the public and the person who brings the information can earn money from it , in a smart way.
Because we using the numbers we have.
That also count for anyone who film something.
And thats not happening on this moment.

SO yeah we can talk about how anyone wants to make a living.
But at the end of day we cant accept a system to work, what created the problem in the first place.
And that is that monopoly position were almost everyone is caught in it.

And dont get me wrong, this mentality is worldwide.
No matter what forum you are or what situation you in it.
People are doing this to survive in this system and we keep doing this until we change the system.
And to change the system we need to work together.
If the common goal is the truth, then i dont see any reason why it should fail.
And dont get me wrong please, asking money for knowledge is not good.
But i know that the ones who do that are not the ones of the frontline.
As always the guys in the background making the big money and the one with the story must struggle to survive.
I think and i know everyone could help change this mentality!
BUt like i said, this is just my opinion what is on my mind for weeks now.

Dreamtimer
20th June 2015, 12:46
Sinzzer, I love your sincerity and your ability to see clearly. Thanks.

One of the reasons I avoided diving into the New Age and Alternative communities is because of the vast worlds of belief that exist. How to begin? How to sort? At first it was too much. Recently, I use my own tools of instinct, following opportunities and synchronicities and trusting my judgment.

If we work together like Sinzzer suggests, it would make it easier for those who don't have the knowledge or tools of discernment.

sinzzer
20th June 2015, 13:44
Sinzzer, I love your sincerity and your ability to see clearly. Thanks.

One of the reasons I avoided diving into the New Age and Alternative communities is because of the vast worlds of belief that exist. How to begin? How to sort? At first it was too much. Recently, I use my own tools of instinct, following opportunities and synchronicities and trusting my judgment.

If we work together like Sinzzer suggests, it would make it easier for those who don't have the knowledge or tools of discernment.

Thank you Dreamtimer.
I honestly feel that it is the problem of mankind in a nutshell.
And almost every strong organisation had proven that they got strong after they worked with each other.
I think its time the UFO community should do the same.
Its got dividied by lies, debunkers, fallacies and "science".

And i dont know were to start to be honest, i only talked with two people about this.
But bottomline is, its time for a change.

Chester
20th June 2015, 16:23
Thank you Dreamtimer.
I honestly feel that it is the problem of mankind in a nutshell.
And almost every strong organisation had proven that they got strong after they worked with each other.
I think its time the UFO community should do the same.
Its got dividied by lies, debunkers, fallacies and "science".

And i dont know were to start to be honest, i only talked with two people about this.
But bottomline is, its time for a change.

And experiencers who do not tell the truth but tell good stories and "psuedo-researchers" who require these "flavors of the month" to perpetuate their own scam.

The only way a truthful experiencer that becomes a celebrity can be separated from a "brand where truth doesn't matter" that had becomes a celebrity is when folks are able to freely discuss all aspects of all these high profile types.

Then those who have less discernment capability can make more informed choices as to what to take seriously and what to avoid.

And so I will say this really clearly. I know I should stop posting these types of thoughts here on the One Truth because I am getting the message more and more every day... and can see in the forum guidelines more and more every day and can understand from reading the PMs I have gotten that this is not wanted here at TOT.

And its my opinion that the owners and top management have the full right to make TOT as they wish. So it is perhaps best that I move on from TOT. The one thing that holds me back though is that their may still be a soul or two that is a member or arrives here or is a lurker who might be assisted by my views. If that's the case and my views assist just one other being in their journey towards the ability to think for themselves and from that begin to take real responsibility for their life and thus avoid the entrapment set by perpetuating paradigms of dis-enpowerment and reliance on the "formula' (Others are here to save the day, here's your new, special messenger, here's how you get on the intel drip feed here's where you send your cash) that actually sucks the vulnerable of all connection to their soul which is why (IMO) the PTBs don't stop these sellers of false hope and in fact behind the scenes find every way to assist them.

lcam88
20th June 2015, 16:25
sinzzer:

I like your post too.

The general idea you are sharing boils down to working together, that in isolation we find ourselves diminished and yet there are some people who share even in that isolation and in disorganization.

There are a couple of issues that are meaningful to me, in this context:

1. scarcity and the uncertainty that investments of valuable energy and resources will indeed yield results
2. a general lack of vision, knowledge of what true potentials are possible as a part of such a group
3. corruption issues like being conned into something and getting the shaft
4. ideological differences in all aspects but specifically leadership
5. goals for the short mid and long term prospects of the group.

I'd be happy to examine these issues and perhaps add to the list as a Prerequisite to Union of sort. I have ideas that are related. Feel free to open a new thread on the topic and I'll chime in.

Chester
20th June 2015, 16:32
sinzzer:

I like your post too.

The general idea you are sharing boils down to working together, that in isolation we find ourselves diminished and yet there are some people who share even in that isolation and in disorganization.

There are a couple of issues that are meaningful to me, in this context:

1. scarcity and the uncertainty that investments of valuable energy and resources will indeed yield results
2. a general lack of vision, knowledge of what true potentials are possible as a part of such a group
3. corruption issues like being conned into something and getting the shaft
4. ideological differences in all aspects but specifically leadership
5. goals for the short mid and long term prospects of the group.

I'd be happy to examine these issues and perhaps add to the list as a Prerequisite to Union of sort. I have ideas that are related. Feel free to open a new thread on the topic and I'll chime in.

Would this vision include the ability for folks to discuss the data produced by high profile atl community celebrities? And based on the data provide opinions about the information, opinions as to what might be the motivations for putting out the information the data reveals? Honestly? What is your view on this matter, Icam88?

Daozen
20th June 2015, 16:32
Here's what I was thinking today: Can you take someone to court for spreading fake intel? I guess it comes under freedom of speech. But is there anything you can do, even a cease and desist, or some sort of legal letter, to someone who has misled people for years?

Chester
20th June 2015, 16:36
Here's what I was thinking today: Can you take someone to court for spreading fake intel? I guess it comes under freedom of speech. But is there anything you can do, even a cease and desist, or some sort of legal letter, to someone who has misled people for years?

My opinion is that no one needs to be taken to court as long as the venues where "intel spreaders" troll for the vulnerable allow for open and unrestricted discussion of the data as to its validity, consistency and paradigms the information suggests.

Now I know I won't get any thanks here as just about all the folks who would have thanked the post have moved on from this forum. Yes... I am getting the hint. Don't worry, I will be glad to move on if asked. Just have the courtesy to ask... I won't make some swan song last word post... I will just move on.

Daozen
20th June 2015, 16:49
Court might be too much, but a legal letter shows focus and carries weight on many levels.

People come and go, I am busy in other places too. I't not healthy too be online too much in summer anyway...

Chester
20th June 2015, 19:32
Check this out -

"You want someone who welcomes you to freely think... exactly what they tell you to think" or risk getting blamed for being negative or low vibrational or dis-info agent or "a paid illuminati dis-info agent" - note here the "paid" word is an added "bad thing" yet point out how within the overall schema, folks are getting paid and... there's the defenders excusing the overall schema by justifying being paid for it. If Pied Piper were paid... maybe then he would be excused for just doing his job or feeding his family or avoiding living in a car?

NOTHING WRONG with getting paid and NOTHING WRONG with earning an honest living.

Cash in on the blatant and intentionally known selling of false hope is something different.

W3H6-NQ6hfA

"It's not brain washing... it's washing your soul... you want someone who will wash your soul."

mojo
20th June 2015, 20:01
The message???...each case needs to stand on its own merits and each person needs to determine what resonates with them. Its difficult to place judgement on right or wrong, but each of us can point out obvious errors in the message and hope others will see it for what it is... what is honest living? The car salesman, the Carney man, the hustler, or the snake oil salesman? It's all perspective... because even the original snake oil salesmen had something...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=titzrDTfp70

Chester
20th June 2015, 21:04
Brilliant find... mojo.

The lesson of the video is that as long as proper investigation can be done, what is a true, snake oil remedy can be distinguished from the false snake oil which only lines the pockets of sociopathic salesmen.

No single individual has the ability to research each and every thing that enters into their life in our world today. This is why there is a good reason to have resources where we can go and get reviews of products from those who have done the actual investigations.

Imagine anyone gullible enough to accept "Truth without proof." Yet a well known Alternative community Celebrity wishes you to believe this is a savior alliances "prime directive."

sinzzer
20th June 2015, 21:07
And experiencers who do not tell the truth but tell good stories and "psuedo-researchers" who require these "flavors of the month" to perpetuate their own scam.



Why would we spend energy on people who tell lies to the public?
I dont see any logic in that my friend.
we just need to make a door and keep it closed for those people, and use the time we have to enjoy life or to find the truth.
I dont want to sit in my old days thinking about someone who did something for god knows what reasons.




The only way a truthful experiencer that becomes a celebrity can be separated from a "brand where truth doesn't matter" that had becomes a celebrity is when folks are able to freely discuss all aspects of all these high profile types.
Then those who have less discernment capability can make more informed choices as to what to take seriously and what to avoid.


I totally agree with you here.




And so I will say this really clearly. I know I should stop posting these types of thoughts here on the One Truth because I am getting the message more and more every day... and can see in the forum guidelines more and more every day and can understand from reading the PMs I have gotten that this is not wanted here at TOT.

And its my opinion that the owners and top management have the full right to make TOT as they wish. So it is perhaps best that I move on from TOT. The one thing that holds me back though is that their may still be a soul or two that is a member or arrives here or is a lurker who might be assisted by my views. If that's the case and my views assist just one other being in their journey towards the ability to think for themselves and from that begin to take real responsibility for their life and thus avoid the entrapment set by perpetuating paradigms of dis-enpowerment and reliance on the "formula' (Others are here to save the day, here's your new, special messenger, here's how you get on the intel drip feed here's where you send your cash) that actually sucks the vulnerable of all connection to their soul which is why (IMO) the PTBs don't stop these sellers of false hope and in fact behind the scenes find every way to assist them.

Well its always good to say what you think, i do that all th time.
But if you walk away because the reaction was not like, you thought it would be.
Then you probaly will get the same problem everywhere, because this is not a TOT problem.
Opinions will always be different.
And if people respect each other opinion, then why would anyone walk away?
There would be no reason for that then.

And that also count with this discussion.
You are damn right about if people ask money for there lies.
But the big qeustion is, what is a lie and what is the truth?
Who had proven that someone tell lies and who tell the truth?
because i see some kind of figure in your statements but no name.
Then i wounder, who do you mean?
But never mind.
It doesent matter who it is, what matter is , what are the lies and that needs to be expose to the public.
Then we all can give it a place and nobody will buy anything from there, end of story.

And if someone cant prove it, then he should not force his opinion or thoughts on others.
He can say, this is what i believe and then all should respect it and move on.
Its as easy as that if you ask me.

sinzzer
20th June 2015, 21:25
sinzzer:

I like your post too.

The general idea you are sharing boils down to working together, that in isolation we find ourselves diminished and yet there are some people who share even in that isolation and in disorganization.

There are a couple of issues that are meaningful to me, in this context:

1. scarcity and the uncertainty that investments of valuable energy and resources will indeed yield results
2. a general lack of vision, knowledge of what true potentials are possible as a part of such a group
3. corruption issues like being conned into something and getting the shaft
4. ideological differences in all aspects but specifically leadership
5. goals for the short mid and long term prospects of the group.

I'd be happy to examine these issues and perhaps add to the list as a Prerequisite to Union of sort. I have ideas that are related. Feel free to open a new thread on the topic and I'll chime in.

The goal is easy, that is the truth.
Nothing more,nothing less.
But i dont want to mess up this topic,so i better stop here.
So if anyone want to open a topic about that, il join for sure because on this moment i was just thinking up loud and only talk with two people about it.
And now the forum in some way.
But i do not have any concrete things to build on, i was just filling up the places what seems to me needs to get upgraded.
And then i dont know how or with what to make a new topic. lol

Dreamtimer
20th June 2015, 21:32
I was just about to bring up the FDA...Great video mojo!

So we found out it was the wrong snake. Might not be so easy nowadays what with all the "proprietary info" businesses have. The makers of RoundUp say you can drink a gallon and be 'safe'. How do they make that claim? Who's drinking it? Not the company's representatives. The tobacco corporate leaders got up in front of our congress and outright lied about the safety of cigarettes.

Our bottom line here and around the world is money, not people. I've said it before. What you need, Sam, is a sea change. If we had kept the citizen and not the dollar the bottom line we would have much more sensible regulation and much less of it. And many fewer salesmen to dupe a much better armed (w/info) population. It's about the underlying drives in society. The money magic has us by the (pick your sensitive part).

lcam88
20th June 2015, 22:11
Would this vision include the ability for folks to discuss the data produced by high profile atl community celebrities? And based on the data provide opinions about the information, opinions as to what might be the motivations for putting out the information the data reveals? Honestly? What is your view on this matter, Icam88?

I shared much of my view in my first posting to this thread, Sam Hunter.

But to expand, I think suppression or repression of the truth is always detrimental to the whole; even by strategies like disinformation, and especially crowd control. But, here are a few things about human nature, the culture one is brought up in perhaps, that indeed may create a requirement for some authority to set limits. I view such authority as a correction to disequilibrium, entrusted to be able to check exaggeration in whatever form it may take. Perhaps one example of an exaggeration that comes to mind is offending someone so their freedom to express opinion is diminished or suppressed.

And for context of the 5 issues you originally quote, think outside the arena of forums, media and celebrities. They are issues regarding the very fabric of society.

Chester
20th June 2015, 23:25
In quotes - Sam Hunter's original comments and then sinzzer's comments in bold

Sam Hunter's current responses are outside of the quotes.



And experiencers who do not tell the truth but tell good stories and "psuedo-researchers" who require these "flavors of the month" to perpetuate their own scam.

Why would we spend energy on people who tell lies to the public?


Do you have children? If you do, do you advise your children? If so, why?

So if you can understand that there is the vulnerable who may be less equipped and/or less capable to discern then is it not a good thing that folks have the opportunity to pint out what may be helpful and what may be harmful where they back it up with the reasons for their opinions?



I dont see any logic in that my friend.


Did the above help clear it up?



we just need to make a door and keep it closed for those people, and use the time we have to enjoy life or to find the truth.

Meanwhile is this what some of the ethnic groups said in Nazi Germany back in the mid 30s? How well did there doors stay shut?



The only way a truthful experiencer that becomes a celebrity can be separated from a "brand where truth doesn't matter" that had becomes a celebrity is when folks are able to freely discuss all aspects of all these high profile types.

Then those who have less discernment capability can make more informed choices as to what to take seriously and what to avoid.

I totally agree with you here.


Thank You.



And so I will say this really clearly. I know I should stop posting these types of thoughts here on the One Truth because I am getting the message more and more every day... and can see in the forum guidelines more and more every day and can understand from reading the PMs I have gotten that this is not wanted here at TOT.

And its my opinion that the owners and top management have the full right to make TOT as they wish. So it is perhaps best that I move on from TOT. The one thing that holds me back though is that their may still be a soul or two that is a member or arrives here or is a lurker who might be assisted by my views. If that's the case and my views assist just one other being in their journey towards the ability to think for themselves and from that begin to take real responsibility for their life and thus avoid the entrapment set by perpetuating paradigms of dis-empowerment and reliance on the "formula' (Others are here to save the day, here's your new, special messenger, here's how you get on the intel drip feed here's where you send your cash) that actually sucks the vulnerable of all connection to their soul which is why (IMO) the PTBs don't stop these sellers of false hope and in fact behind the scenes find every way to assist them.

Well its always good to say what you think, i do that all th time.
But if you walk away because the reaction was not like, you thought it would be.
Then you probaly will get the same problem everywhere, because this is not a TOT problem.
Opinions will always be different.


Because a few weeks back I received PMs from one of the management that told me that I should bring content like I used to which was not focused so heavily on a specific area.

Yet I prefer to post about and discuss what interests me. If the thing that interests me the most is something I am asked not to focus on by the management and yet that is all that I am interested in focusing upon at this time, then I was simply expressing that if management felt I should leave the forum, I would oblige.

And actually, I do not have this problem everywhere else I am at which is several other forums. My point needs to remain my point and not be misunderstood. I hope this clarifies this for you.



And if people respect each other opinion, then why would anyone walk away?
There would be no reason for that then.


No one is walking away. All I am saying is that this particular subject area is the area of interest for me at this time. If management, based on those PMs I received, feels that its better I move on because of the areas of my focus... then I will.

I desire to focus on exposing the "experiencer/researcher/protected environment scam" used by so many in the alternative community because this scam threatens my children, my loved ones, my friends and the vulnerable who I may not know personally but to whom I feel an obligation towards as a fellow ensouled being.

I hope this is clear, sinnzer.



And that also count with this discussion.
You are damn right about if people ask money for there lies.


Thank You.



But the big qeustion is, what is a lie and what is the truth?


Exactly... and it would be nice if these matters could be exposed.



Who had proven that someone tell lies and who tell the truth?


It would be nice if this could be done.



because i see some kind of figure in your statements but no name.
Then i wounder, who do you mean?
But never mind.

It doesent matter who it is, what matter is , what are the lies and that needs to be expose to the public.
Then we all can give it a place and nobody will buy anything from there, end of story.


This can only be discussed and documented without restrictions (other than requiring it be done civilly) and thus in the environment here it cannot be done do to the forum guidelines. I feel I push the envelope of these guidelines and that was one of the reasons I made my comment. This is why I have suggested that if management desired I move on then I would do so because my interest in the subject matter is as vigorous as ever and it is almost all I find of interest here. Several of the top threads found in the General section of this forum touch on aspects of this central area of concern.




And if someone cant prove it, then he should not force his opinion or thoughts on others.


Ohhh, but it easily can and one day likely will all come out anyways - but then there's the vulnerable that are sent here via links to this site who need the information the most so that they can make informed decisions.



He can say, this is what i believe and then all should respect it and move on.
Its as easy as that if you ask me.


One does not have to believe a thing when the facts with documentation and verification are all laid down on the table. One only needs to look at the facts.

Chester
20th June 2015, 23:28
3. corruption issues like being conned into something and getting the shaft


Yes... this one is my current primary interest.

Chester
20th June 2015, 23:29
I shared much of my view in my first posting to this thread, Sam Hunter.

But to expand, I think suppression or repression of the truth is always detrimental to the whole; even by strategies like disinformation, and especially crowd control.

Yes.

sinzzer
21st June 2015, 19:33
In quotes - Sam Hunter's original comments and then sinzzer's comments in bold


Do you have children? If you do, do you advise your children? If so, why?


Sorry for the late reacton, i was celebrating fathersday.
So yeah i have kids, and i give them advice when they ask for it.
IN other words i give them answers when they come with qeustions and i dont brainwash them with my believe system.
Meanwhile am a father to them who prepare them for the future.




So if you can understand that there is the vulnerable who may be less equipped and/or less capable to discern then is it not a good thing that folks have the opportunity to pint out what may be helpful and what may be harmful where they back it up with the reasons for their opinions?


Ofcourse i understand that, there for i searching for ways to find a solution for this situation.
And not for you,but me and probaly many more also think about that.

But no matter what situation am in, i always look for a way to make it better.
To me talking about the same things is a just a waste of time.
I just want to know, what is the problem?
Can we fix it?
yes or no or what is it?
That is just my logic.



Did the above help clear it up?


Your logic from above is no logic for me.
In the Netherlands we have a saying.
Comparing apples with pears.
By asking if am a parent and by asking why would i give my kids advice.
Then you compare kids with the readers and advice with pointing out the mistakes of someone else.
That is not the same my friend, that is comparing apples with pears.
I dont want to argue about this, but it is as how it is.




Meanwhile is this what some of the ethnic groups said in Nazi Germany back in the mid 30s? How well did there doors stay shut?


They were talking about a door to close the country.
Am talking about, making universal guidelines to divide the truth from lies.
Then there is no chance to go in, that is a complete different door then what the nazis had in mind.




Thank You


You welcome




Because a few weeks back I received PMs from one of the management that told me that I should bring content like I used to which was not focused so heavily on a specific area.

Yet I prefer to post about and discuss what interests me. If the thing that interests me the most is something I am asked not to focus on by the management and yet that is all that I am interested in focusing upon at this time, then I was simply expressing that if management felt I should leave the forum, I would oblige.

And actually, I do not have this problem everywhere else I am at which is several other forums. My point needs to remain my point and not be misunderstood. I hope this clarifies this for you.


Well am not talking about the general problem of you with this mods or with anyone else.
I would never ever mix in someone else his issues.
My statement in this topic was to point out what i think is one ofthe problems in a nutshell in the UFO community and not in this forum.
And what you or someone else has with the mods of this forum is not my business to be honest.
But i can say that am here for more then a year now, and i know if there is something then i just talk with the mod about it and move on.
So dont get me wrong, i came in the middle of this topic with my opinion about what i think is a major problem in the UFO community.

And if you answer on that , and say, well this or that and i better leave.
Then to me that comes over as , well we dont agree so i move on.
Just keep in mind i dont know of any history with situations here in this forum, and i want to keep it like that.
I know one thing, if i start to tell my issue to someone who is not in the issue.
Then he could change the story and make the issue bigger then what it was.
When i have a issue with who ever, i go straight to that person and ask him what time it is.
No matter who they are.




No one is walking away. All I am saying is that this particular subject area is the area of interest for me at this time. If management, based on those PMs I received, feels that its better I move on because of the areas of my focus... then I will.

I desire to focus on exposing the "experiencer/researcher/protected environment scam" used by so many in the alternative community because this scam threatens my children, my loved ones, my friends and the vulnerable who I may not know personally but to whom I feel an obligation towards as a fellow ensouled being.

I hope this is clear, sinnzer.


Look like i said above, am not familiar with the issues.
But we are all human, so we all could make mistakes.
And maybe its not the problem that you talk about the issue.
And maybe its the problem how you talk about those issues.

For ecample, i saw in several comments from you that you mention some kind of figure who lies and tell stories.
Then i get the qeustion in my mind, about who are you talking about it?
Because if you know who and what he did.
Then said his name and show the proof.
That is a complete different story then approach the hole story as fake, by talking in a negative way about it.
That poison everyone, one person could react with arguments and someone else might get annoyd.
it depends on the person and his rank in this forum.
And to be honest this topic is not about some kind of person, but still it look like we are talking about some kind of person.
And that shows to me that maybe the intentions of the mods are right.

If you changed your tactic and proof that you are right, then its a win win situation because we all could learn from it.
or what we also could do is, talk negative or not indirect about someone and keep that negative vibe in some way, and then when the heat is hot we can say **** it...
I think we are way to intelligent for that.




Exactly... and it would be nice if these matters could be exposed.


Not only that my friend.
What you are talking about is just a brench of a tree.
Am talking about the hole tree should be exposed.
But exposed to where?
On a network what is handled by people who dont want these things exposed?
The network should changed, then people who tell lies or bring lies or hoax videos, then have no chance at all.
If we want, we could create that.



It would be nice if this could be done.


M8 you have the power to make that done.
What did you say earlier?
You had a talk with a business men right?
And you mentioned that he saw a good idea but saw no profit in it right?
That is because you gave him the wrong concept.
You can let him make profit if you come op with the right concept, and with that concept you can get what you wanted.
You have no idea what you had in your hands.




This can only be discussed and documented without restrictions (other than requiring it be done civilly) and thus in the environment here it cannot be done do to the forum guidelines. I feel I push the envelope of these guidelines and that was one of the reasons I made my comment. This is why I have suggested that if management desired I move on then I would do so because my interest in the subject matter is as vigorous as ever and it is almost all I find of interest here. Several of the top threads found in the General section of this forum touch on aspects of this central area of concern.


M8 if you have proof that someone tell lies, then everyone would listen.
Am sure of that.
But if you bring up conspiracy theories or something , then you cant aspect that this forum believe that without proof.
Look like i said before, i dont know whats going on and if you dont mind , i would like to keep it like that.
But the point is, if there is a problem with anyone then aproach him and if you have evidence what can debunk who or what ever, then just show it.




Ohhh, but it easily can and one day likely will all come out anyways - but then there's the vulnerable that are sent here via links to this site who need the information the most so that they can make informed decisions.


I have a saying, if someone mislead me then he is not the problem.
I am the problem, because i was blind and there for he misleaded me.
There for i need to enlighte meself, to make sure i cannot be blind again.
And with that, i can lighte the path of others who tried to mislead me.
Then even my enemy can change into a friend.

And this comment is not based on a opinion or something, i came from the streets and live a criminal life for years when i was young.
I never steal, only doing business.
So i know prety good how it feel to get misleaded and lose money.
I always was pist of on those guys, until it got me.
If i know how to see threw them, then they cant mislead me.

And there for it is needed to enlighten others, so they cant be misleaded anymore.
And that is possible if there would be a solid social secure network, to get information or to expose information.
Then it would be a place were the truth stand ground and lies have no place in it.



One does not have to believe a thing when the facts with documentation and verification are all laid down on the table. One only needs to look at the facts.

True, there for should be a solid and secure platform to expose that in the public.
But that counts for everything and that is a major problem in the UFO community.
We dont have that on this moment.
We only have places like this forum to meet and to talk about these issues.
And there for we should think of a smart way to go further and not use our minds to divide us more further.
Internet brought people together, but it surprised me how people even got further divided then before.
But hey, this is just my opinion.

sinzzer
21st June 2015, 19:47
Here's what I was thinking today: Can you take someone to court for spreading fake intel? I guess it comes under freedom of speech. But is there anything you can do, even a cease and desist, or some sort of legal letter, to someone who has misled people for years?

Did you ever heard that someone from the media or politics brought to court?
Look at the irac situation, vietnam or cambodia.
My woman is from Cambodia, and her family lived the story what others saw on tv or in movies.
Everything what they had saw and lost is a complete result by the lies of politics.
They almost destroyd the hole country.
So If we ever start think about that, then we should start with politics and the media.
There is a looooooooooonnnggg line of politics who did terrible things and they live like a king on this moment.
While they did terrible things.
Those guys should be the first guys to go there, if we even think about bringing someone to court.
Then they must go.
But that wount happend.
Until the people realize how to control and get the power, and then we can bring them to court and punish them.

Daozen
22nd June 2015, 14:34
Did you ever heard that someone from the media or politics brought to court?
Look at the irac situation, vietnam or cambodia.
My woman is from Cambodia, and her family lived the story what others saw on tv or in movies.
Everything what they had saw and lost is a complete result by the lies of politics.
They almost destroyd the hole country.
So If we ever start think about that, then we should start with politics and the media.
There is a looooooooooonnnggg line of politics who did terrible things and they live like a king on this moment.
While they did terrible things.
Those guys should be the first guys to go there, if we even think about bringing someone to court.
Then they must go.
But that wount happend.
Until the people realize how to control and get the power, and then we can bring them to court and punish them.

Some people who present themselves as innocent researchers are more powerful than they appear. The highest ranking people in the negative hierarchies give themselves innocuous looking jobs. And by taking them to court, or starting some kind of legal action -even if only a petition and class action affadavit- you are starting to put a stop to the plans of their entire group.

sinzzer
22nd June 2015, 17:23
Some people who present themselves as innocent researchers are more powerful than they appear. The highest ranking people in the negative hierarchies give themselves innocuous looking jobs. And by taking them to court, or starting some kind of legal action -even if only a petition and class action affadavit- you are starting to put a stop to the plans of their entire group.

Well in fact everyone with a voice is powerful, if he use the right words.
But the problem of this society is,what ever problem someone made or have, if he have the right connections then he wil never get punished.
We dont have a court what follows the truth, we have a court what follows the money.
Because this system accept it like that.
I honestly think something like the French enlightment is needed to the change the tides.
Court is just doing what the system wants it to do.
If the system get changed then it is useful to bring them to court.
On this moment you will only get pist of to see people walk away free.

For ecample, i live in the Netherlands but my parents are from South America.
If you only knew how many times the cops harassed me in the past for no reason, i lived with racism from day one and many people did bad things to me with discrimination.
Trust me, i saw alot of crap.
And all those people who did those things to me go free.
I was even in a case were i had evidence of fraud against me and still i did not get my right.
So i seen with my eyes the hate, the racism and discrimination and all people who done this go free.
And now i watch the news and see how the police attack black people here in the Netherlands because they came up for there rights.
There is no free opinion, its a lie.
And am only talk about the Netherlands, where racism is the hangover of slavery.
And that hangover is spread all over the globe, mixed with religion , nationalism and ignorance.

SO what i see is, this system dont walk the path of the truth.
It walkes the path of money.

SO i understand your point, but most of the judges do not look objective to the situation.
They pretend that they do, but that is a ilusion.

mojo
22nd June 2015, 19:20
I'm going to use the example of cable tv. Does anyone remember when it first came out as pay tv? There was no advertizing because we were paying for tv. Slowly it changed to advertizing on cable which is now worse than original air wave television and we still pay for tv. Let's look at youtube now the same thing. We as citizens allow for the millions of ads that assault us daily. I totally despise ads more than having to pay for content up front, like a movie ticket. I remember a time when very few channels had ads now it is very rare to see a channel without ads, my channel still being one of among the few, and trust me, giving up hundreds of dollars as closing in to a million views. Why because standing on principle is important, yet wish to have financial gain. So charging makes more sense to me than a person having to wade through ads and eating up of our valuable time.