Savior paradigm [Archive]

donk

17th April 2015, 20:48

Aragorn

17th April 2015, 21:17

Why do people get so bent out of shape about the �savior paradigm�? It�s like the latest new age joke�on no dood�he�s bringing the �savior paradigm��.breaking the prime directive even.

Look, please don�t start telling me you (and I) can only save yourself�I get it.

But IF we believe in a cabal (which is either the creation of an anti-human force or that self-destructive �human nature� so many believe in)�why do so many get so emotionally attached to the fear of the �savior paradigm� (a non-human force aiding humanity)?

I personally think that if it is that a non-human force brought about the misery of the reality we find ourselves, it would be great to receive help from a different outside force�even at the risk of potential enslavement by said force�I mean, we can cross that bridge when it happens�but it seems we need some help EMANCIPATING OURSELVES FROM MENTAL SLAVERY.

This goes DOUBLE if the mental slavery is self-imposed human nature�if we have managed to create this trap for ourselves, why not let outside nudge us in the right direction?

I understand PINING for ET to save us self-destructive behavior, I�m not advocating that. What I am wondering about is why there seems to be such strong emotional reactions to the very idea something other than us might help us?

The matter is rather complicated. On the one hand, there is Free Will. The Good Guys� know that we have Free Will, and they respect it -- but the Bad Guys don't. The Good Guys� also know the dangers involved if they were to openly come down here and remove all the Bad Guys � from their positions of power. They would be instant Saviors�, with as a result that, once again, Mankind would sacrifice its sovereignty in a heartbeat. Because that's what Mankind has been indoctrinated with, by religions, by governments, etc. The idea of something "superior" to ourselves which must by definition be perfect and thus must be obeyed, is embedded into our collective psyche. And at the same time, you would have the paranoid Right-Wingers who would be picking up a gun and shooting at The Good Guys� for no reason, other than fear -- if not xenophobia, then at the very least the fear of change. Because they believe in capitalism, corporatism, the United States government, and that the Russians are communists, and all Muslims are terrorists, etc.

Now, I think that it's understandable that the people who are awake and aware will be emphasizing that we Earthlings are the cavalry. Humanity has been living under these oppressive and abusive power structures for too long, and the awake and aware people do now want to reclaim their sovereignty. But yes, a little help is needed, because, as Albert Einstein said, "you cannot solve a problem with the same level of thinking as what created it in the first place".

The problem is that the vast majority of humanity is still vast asleep and won't accept any changes unless they come slowly and gradually, or unless they are forced upon us by an inescapable calamity, such as -- for instance -- a total breakdown of civilization as we know it in the aftermath of a potential World War III scenario. And then there are also lots of people still who think that they're awake and aware, but who in reality only have one eye open, and are still subjected to the indoctrination and conditioning. Those are the people who know that something has to give, but they're still naive and they believe that voting for a different guy the next time is going to bring about this change.

There is a lot of inertia to overcome. Raising people's awareness and broadening their consciousness is a very slow and tedious task, and it won't work on everyone. So a little outside help is needed, but we must always be careful not to invite in more problems than we've already got.

That's just my two Eurocents worth, Bro. :-)

donk

17th April 2015, 23:18

The idea of something "superior" to ourselves which must by definition be perfect and thus must be obeyed, is embedded into our collective psyche. And at the same time, you would have the paranoid Right-Wingers who would be picking up a gun and shooting at The Good Guys™ for no reason, other than fear -- if not xenophobia, then at the very least the fear of change.

I mean, I feel we like we seem to need help as a species to get rid of all that (especially the good guy vs bad guy paradigm)...as well as the savior yearning and messiah complexes, authoritarian/abusive relationships...all the bad idea we're addicted to, the cognitive dissonance we shouldn't be capable of--its so much it seems like a little help is almost necessary.

And why not? isn't NOT expecting something to be more aware/higher up the "evolutionary" ladder? I mean, doesn't thinking that way kinda necessitate that we are sorta assuming this existence is the penultimate one of all possibilities?

johnjen325

17th April 2015, 23:19

For those who have studied the Wingmakers material, it provides another 'perspective' upon this topic.

One that I find illumuninating.

JJ

Aragorn

17th April 2015, 23:46

I mean, I feel we like we seem to need help as a species to get rid of all that (especially the good guy vs bad guy paradigm)...as well as the savior yearning and messiah complexes, authoritarian/abusive relationships...all the bad idea we're addicted to, the cognitive dissonance we shouldn't be capable of--its so much it seems like a little help is almost necessary.

I hear you on that, but spiritual evolution is a very complex process. It also requires a psychological evolution -- in fact, I would say that it's part of the package. Yet, direct outside intervention is not allowed because of the principle of Free Will. That is why beings such as myself have incarnated here for a single lifetime -- we normally never incarnate as we are not part of the wheel of karma and never wanted to take part in learning by making mistakes -- to live among humans and help them awaken, both to the Truth and to a more positive spiritual experience with all that lives, whether on this planet or beyond. We do this through the principle of sympathetic vibration. Yet, again, it's a slow process, due to the inertia of the masses. They are very vastly asleep.

And why not? isn't NOT expecting something to be more aware/higher up the "evolutionary" ladder? I mean, doesn't thinking that way kinda necessitate that we are sorta assuming this existence is the penultimate one of all possibilities?

There is still a lot of work to be done, that is for sure. And it would appear as if Corey's Sphere Alliance is here to provide for the military angle by way of a peaceful disarmament of the enemy. At least, I'm assuming they are, as is Corey. I am hopeful, but I do not wish to see these beings as saviors. Allies, yes, but saviors, no.

Corey is an intuitive and an empath, and if he says he trusts these beings, then that should count for something. Personally, I am maintaining caution, but that doesn't mean that this caution would be justified. It's more a kind of wisdom gathered from my experiences during my human existence on this planet, rather than that it would be an intuition that there's something wrong. ;-)

That Guy

18th April 2015, 00:02

EMANCIPATING OURSELVES FROM MENTAL SLAVERY.

Learn to think!
www.triviumeducation.com

NO ONE BUT OURSELVES CAN FREE OUR MINDS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xcNOZLFt4o

Lets not be sold off to the merchants.

hughe

18th April 2015, 00:48

Savior paradigm has been worked out so well.

The way I understand how they - non-human entities - enslave entire human race is to let humans as stupid animals and keep worshiping other beings.
Denial of cause and effect is a good sign of stupidity. Higher intelligence like humans possess is irrelevant as long as the main paradigm ignore causality in Nature.
Why humans are so destructive and love death and destruction? One of reasons is that modern science and technology inherited broken causality. They separated us from Nature. Modern humans blindly believe in human own Earth, at the center of Universe, don't give shit about whatever action we do. This is stupidity, dangerous path of intelligent species.

Adding memory reset manipulation in each cycle of life - birth and death - make them keep entire species under full control. Like human masters train dogs for their own agenda, they have used, manipulated, and been controlling billions of earthlings over eons of time.

I don't believe advanced of science and technology, i.e. the artificiality never overcomes the organic process of Nature. I learned some of ET races have influenced, human history to fix their past mistakes not for human's sake. Suppose humans keep tempering DNA, trying to merge life form into machine for creating the perfect world, immortality, it will be the dead end.

The laws of physics change all the time. It's remarkable insight by few brilliant scientists. Virtually all established scientists ignore it though. If they accept it new paradigm, they'll have to loose everything and must face their stupidity against humanity over two hundred years. For instance subtle change of electric field strength in region of space affects gravity, chemical composition of molecules. Scientists rely on linearity, symmetry which assume everything is fixed, predictable by few mathematical formulas.

I see everyday human behavior of direct abomination against Nature. This is so disgusting to myself but what should I do about it.
The city manages so called "Ecology park". However, ecosystem of the park area is destroyed by on-going development - golf course, bicycle roads, river reservoir, cutting down old trees and removing green mass each year. And these stupid people call it "Beautiful, environmental friendly park!"

hughe

18th April 2015, 00:55

My one of goals is to end physical slavery.
First step I set was to reduce cost of living by one tenth.

Sophia

18th April 2015, 04:34

I personally think that if it is that a non-human force brought about the misery of the reality we find ourselves, it would be great to receive help from a different outside force…

Yes, I think/feel the same. I have seen it like ETS are like our cousins, part of a bigger family...(not all to be trusted and not all as closely connected to us)

What person has never had help from blood family or from anyone else?

they are already helping us...in not so direct and obvious ways...

I would be happy for there to be more help from ETS down here...I welcome it, some others don't welcome it...

Yes us humans (or in human form) do need to take responsibility for ourselves, and our planet...but we are not totally independent and we are not totally separate from ETs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkyqRP8S93Y

monk

18th April 2015, 09:10

I could not agree more with you Donk even though Aragorn indeed raises key points about the risk of placing ET as saviour.

However, look around at some of the more gentle creatures on earth who go out side their species to protect/raise that of another sometimes less evolved species, silverbacks caring for dogs/small animals etc etc .. Do the protected animals feel like their benefactor is an almighty saviour or a loving parent?

The nature of what passes for planetary protection itself is a large part of our story here, on the outer rim... The Star Wars buffs among ye may remember the scoffs given to Amidala whilst she was on Tattooine, regarding the reach of the republic and the likelihood of it helping their backwater planet.

We, as a 3D race have been exploited by not just one higher dimensional ET, far from it, we've had everyone dip their wick and so much more setting up shop for millennia.

What are we going to do when we are in ships flying past worlds like ours, children being tortured endless war etc etc? Would we act or refuse to because we were scared they might try to worship us? Does that mean we have to let them worship us if we do help, can we not just say we were in the same boat as you please don't worship us?

When we see animals stranded on beaches, we do our best straight away to get them home while they still live, we don't stand their hesitant, protesting that our involvement would cause the dolphins to become slavish minded spiritual subordinates?

Everyone can save themselves from anything, depending on the strength of their belief. But if a 4D negative group has subjugated the will effectively of an entire planet of 3D beings one has to ask, is that fair? Even if we humans did invite them here saying its your problem is kind of like saying to an abducted 2 year old you shouldn't have got in his car for the sweets, silly child the police don't look for silly children goodbye.

Really good thread Donk, my favorite this year by far.

InCiDeR

18th April 2015, 09:45

Yeah, it's pretty interesting isn't it.

If I'm about to drown, and someone comes rescuing me... I wouldn't stop them and say "Hold on, wait a minute here. Why are you doing this?".

Likewise if someone would save me from being run over by a car that I didn't see coming... I wouldn't say "Why did you do that?" or start worshipping the rescuer in question.

Gratefulness should not be mixed up with worship, not in my book at least.

We often talk about service to others as the more righteous path, why should that only be a human concern? If we are true to its meaning, we should allow others to work according to this principle as well.

If the helping hand later try to slap you, well that is a situation we have to consider when it comes, if it comes. Not meaning that you should not be aware of the possibility and be cautious, but not stupidly so.

1inMany

18th April 2015, 11:53

Totally agree, donk. But who says help has to come only in the form of ET physical presence? Who says help has to "come" at all? Maybe it has been here all along...

Sometimes I have a problem with the generalization of "humanity." Sure there are some times when that is appropriate, but maybe not as often as it is assigned.

The individual nature of this experience would tend to indicate that the help would be individual, according to the evolutionary process in which we find ourselves. Wouldn't it?

That is not to discount any planetary or humanity-wide shift in consciousness, of course, which (hopefully) is a game changer.

Just some thoughts.

DNA

18th April 2015, 11:55

We are constantly hearing about the cabal and this strikes my mind with thoughts of Baron Harkonin from the Dune books.
As of late I've become so disenfranchised with politics and how hopelessly complicated and corrupt it is, I find myself daydreaming about a true King.
So how's that for having a savior fantasy.
I find myself wishing a certain house from the cabal families would distinguish itself like the Attredies in Frank Herbert's Dune books.
I find myself daydreaming that duke Attredies pushes his way to the top of the pyramid to the adulation and love of all.
I'm at that point.

InCiDeR

18th April 2015, 12:36

(...) On the one hand, there is Free Will. The Good Guys� know that we have Free Will, and they respect it -- but the Bad Guys don't.(...)

I tend to agree with the major points in your post - but - what do you mean with "Free Will" in this context? Sorry Aragorn, I couldn't resist. ;)

...however, it is a serious question, I really would like to know!...

Dreamtimer

18th April 2015, 13:12

Remember the FLDS compounds and the stories of girls as young as nine being married off as the umpteenth wife of an uncle decades older? Should we let it happen because it's their religious belief? Should we intervene because they're breaking the larger societies laws? Should we intervene for moral and ethical reasons? As I recall there were many differing opinions and it was difficult to determine the truth.

There are still a lot of ifs.

It is a clear contradiction, however, to be so on board with the idea of negative ETs hurting us while being unwilling to consider positive ETs helping us.

Why do good people help others? It's not for a reward or payback. They just do it.

I imagine there comes a point, maybe it takes millenia, where the good neighbors decide to help the screaming, abused child.

Aragorn

18th April 2015, 13:32

I tend to agree with the major points in your post - but - what do you mean with "Free Will" in this context. Sorry Aragorn, I couldn't resist. ;)

In this particular context, Free Will means self-determination, i.e. the right of the population of a planet or other celestial body to choose the course of its own evolution. This is an important aspect from the point of view of interstellar (or even intergalactic) ethics.

This is where Star Trek's Prime Directive comes into play. In Star Trek itself, the Prime Directive states (among other things) that no contact shall be made by the United Federation of Planets with any civilization that has not yet attained warp drive capability. Transposed to our own present-day Earth, this means that, even though there are and have been breakaway civilizations and there are secret space programs, the vast majority of humanity is still left in limbo over whether there would be intelligent (and even space-faring) life on other worlds, let alone over whether warp drive technology is even possible.

Now, of course, anyone with a brain would be able to ascertain that the mainstream means which are used for searching for extraterrestrial life are suffering from tunnel vision to the degree of ludicrousness. Even "3D" beings from elsewhere in the galaxy might be a few thousands of years ahead of where mainstream science is on Earth today -- it doesn't even have to be a million years, or a hundred thousand years, no, just one thousand years. We already know that radio wave transmissions are a very poor means of conveying information over longer distances, but still, that is what SETI is looking for. And mainstream science still believes that the laws of physics of the universe are centered around gravity, while there is clearly an electromagnetic component to it all.

As an illustration of this, in the 1990s, a Mexican scientist by the name Miguel Alcubierre theorized a warp drive which would bend spacetime around a spaceship, while the ship itself would remain stable and stationary in a bubble of flat spacetime. However, it has always been assumed that dark energy and/or dark matter were needed to accomplish this. Recently however, a retired physics professor from Omaha in the USA has begun working on a warp drive in his own garage, based upon the use of high voltages to create a warp bubble, and his experiments appear promising. He has so far already been able to compress a laser beam, showing that he has, indeed, managed to warp spacetime.

I couldn't find the original video anymore where the retired professor himself explains how and why he came to these findings, but the ~6-minute video below does explain it all equally well...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFUeWNuSBLw

To return to what I was talking about higher up however, as far as the mainstream population is concerned, we're still at the stage where we think that we might possibly be the only intelligent creatures out there, and that the fact that we have intelligence is merely a fluke of nature, caused by random genetic mutations. And on the other hand, we've got the religious people, who say that the scriptures don't mention anything about life on other planets -- you have to keep in mind that it was these very same religious institutions who insisted that Earth was flat, and some of them actually still do.

Ergo, an open and public intervention from ETs in our way of life down here on Planet Earth would have significant consequences to our evolution as a species, and can therefore not be allowed in the ethics of benevolent and advanced ETs, wherever they come from. They can make themselves visible at times via entries into our atmosphere -- and sometimes they need to, in order to make contact with members of their own species who have incarnated on Earth and have agreed to becoming contactees in order to pass on messages -- but there is always plausible deniability, because no formal contact has been made yet.

Now, the interesting part is that even the negative ETs have not made any formal and open contact yet -- semi-formal, yes, through secret meetings with selected government officials, but nothing that was both formal and public -- but I doubt that this would then be a matter of ethics on their part. I would much rather think that if they were to simply come down here and seize the planet, they would get their rear ends kicked right off of the planet again by The Good Guys�.

So what we have here, is a chess game. There is interaction, and even intervention -- the latter at the spiritual and for humans mainly subconscious level -- but no physically tangible large-scale and overt contact. It's a very delicate situation, in which several ET factions -- whether good, evil or anywhere in between -- are constantly walking a tightrope on what they can get away with without completely upsetting the balance. The Good Guys� because they respect our Free Will, and The Bad Guys because they don't want to get themselves into too much trouble with The Good Guys.

Phoenix

18th April 2015, 13:46

I don't know about anyone else, but I chose to incarnate here for the experience, learning potential, and spiritual growth opportunities.

Good, bad, ugly, and everything in between, as far as I'm concerned it's all valuable, and it's ALL good.

Personally, I'd prefer it if things were allowed to unfold here naturally without any (further) external interference.

We got ourselves into the mess we now find ourselves in (consent via tacit agreement), so I think it's only fair that we take some personal responsibility for our actions (or IN-actions as the case may be).

But therein lies the problem, too many people are waiting for someone to come alomg and save us from our (mostly self-created) problems.

Which is a shame really, because we do actually have the ability/power to take care of these problems ourselves.

Unfortunately, it seems the overwhelming majority of people on this planet lack the courage and/or conviction to take action and get things done/do what is necessary.

monk

19th April 2015, 12:37

If benevolent ET's haven't made contact how can we assume they are all "non-interventionist"? Who told us that? A human?

Until they actually make contact we don't know anything about their societies or practices. Going by any information disseminated by the smorgasbord of terminally conflicting/embattled ET contactees is futile and will yield only confusion, obviously, given how much they disagree/conflict with each other. ALL of The contactees relationships, especially those contactees brought to us by David Wilcocks Alliance, onceinabluemoon (Sunfire) and Goodet (Corey) are evidence of conflict between "higher" ET groups.

Those above have more to learn than us, and more to apologise for.

Long live mankind and bless every soul on this beautiful rock as it awakens to the majesty of its being and sheds the fear and hatred. May justice be swift for those who project negative futures for them.

Chester

20th April 2015, 04:30

Donk - great thread and great point to bring up.

I am beginning to see that so many seem to make far too much out of a word that suddenly the word itself becomes black listed. Words are just pointers anyways, right?

So anyways... we have this lovely phrase called "human nature." One of the attributes of human nature is that many of us attempt to make the life of other living beings "better." Of course, there are also humans who act in ways that clearly make the life of other living beings worse. I would imagine most of us would agree that making the lives better for other living beings is a good thing. I bet most of us would oppose making the lives of other living beings worse.

Why then should we assume that these views (and choices made upon these views) would be wrong or would not occur in cases of other living beings which could impact the life experience of humans?

So maybe this type of behavior is not just "human nature" but is "universal nature."

And so I think Donk's point is excellent. If a helping hand were extended, why should we not consider taking it?

Ahhhhhhh but then there's the trust factor. Could we be sucked in by a far more worse "evil" than the crap we are dealing with on planet earth today? I guess that's the risk.

The way I see it (I emphasize this is my opinion only)... the folks in charge (and the theoretical "beings" behind them) could not be any worse. Yet just because I would be willing to take this risk... what do I tell my kids one day if I find out I made the wrong choice? Jeeeez - another dilemma (wrong thread perhaps).

and to monk's (great) post just above this one...

It seems to me, based on what I know... that humanity is in humanity's hands.

ERK

21st April 2015, 07:51

donk

22nd April 2015, 13:27

I believe the “food chain” we are taught in elementary bio is an intentional oversimplification.

It seems to me that it would be more accurately described as an “energy exchange web”, where the “higher level consumer” is able to “weave” it a bit.

As the “highest” level we are aware of in the 3d earth life aspect of it, we can choose to eat mammals (yummy as they are, when I think about it on a deeper level I gross myself out), we can choose to eat the animals similar like my friend who chooses not to eat anything with four legs (birds and marine life are different enough it’s harder to relate to/empathize as much with), and we are able to choose NOT to eat the creatures that seem to have a similar (if less self-aware) type of “life” as we do.

And that’s just the physical substance aspect of it. We can choose to “own” animals, to use their energy/activity to benefit our existence as far as “work” , we put them in exhibits (zoos/safaris) or labs for study/amusment, we can choose to keep them as pets. There’s a scale there, as far as how much of your will you are imposing on them, and I guess we create our own reality about it by whatever it is we tell ourselves about these relationships. In some cases, we straight call them “rescues”….we be the saviors no one asked for.

But my point is, if there’s something “higher” on the food web than us…this should probably be one of the thoughts that we should keep in (and put into others’) front of our awareness. Our emotional attachments (and fear, and lies we tell ourselves) about the predator-prey relationship is way more of a driving force in our existence than I think most realize. I believe this is the mindset we most need to work on, as a species, if we are ever to progress evolutionarily.

It seems to me arrogance to think we were the top of everything, that we are the most aware creators of the web, that we aren’t in some similar being treated “from above” as we do to beings “so below” us. And I’m talking layers…level….a scale with many notches. The next highest level above us may have beings that are just as capable of ignorance and selfishness and cruelity as some humans seem capable of, they are just better equipped/aware of this reality…and can hide from us, as the most advanced predators can from their prey.

Can those lower understand all of the uses we have for them? Possibly, when armed with more awareness and better information. So my question is: is it fair to speculate that our bizarre cultural (“civilized”) belief that we are the top of the energy web of existence is projection of the arrogance of a (maybe only slightly) higher type of being (or a few bad apples from their species/type/race/whatever). Sorta like the phenomenon where a pet becomes like a reflection of their owner?

That Guy

22nd April 2015, 16:42

It seems to me arrogance to think we were the top of everything, that we are the most aware creators of the web, that we aren’t in some similar being treated “from above” as we do to beings “so below” us. And I’m talking layers…level….a scale with many notches. The next highest level above us may have beings that are just as capable of ignorance and selfishness and cruelity as some humans seem capable of, they are just better equipped/aware of this reality…and can hide from us, as the most advanced predators can from their prey.

I often ponder what it is that feeds on the Shmargons, after all, there's always a bigger fish, a thought that is quite satisfying to me, in other words, this sh!t never ends. (will we ever find a petrified Blue Avian turd, and does their butt make a whistling sound when they poop?) Sigh, such enlightened thoughts from this puny little human mind, imagine what greatness in discernment we are capable of and where it might get us when science and spirituality truly meet in a way that can be measured and repeated at will by anyone using two cotton balls, a paperclip and a kitchen sink, we'll get there, eventually we'll get there.

Always a bigger pigeon too btw.

https://youtu.be/G933z25dn30

ERK

22nd April 2015, 17:04

modwiz

22nd April 2015, 17:06

I imagine there comes a point, maybe it takes millenia, where the good neighbors decide to help the screaming, abused child.

ET's may choose to see adults as that and not children to be saved. The masses of humanity could change the world in a week if the will was there. They are now telling us to grow up and become adult emotionally. If we heed that advice the world will become a better place. If we begin to address out problems, like adults, then I suspect assistance will be added because a new consent has been made visible and actionable.

Fortunately there are pockets of new movement and direction happening. These things are not under the radar but, simply ignored or dismissed. Ignoring or dismissing movements that make a difference and improve the lot of humanity sends a message. It is not a good message.

The time for pointing fingers at what the PTB are doing is over. Time to focus on what we intend to do about it, without external "saviors". Enlightened ET's are not amused by our acceptance and complacency in the face of growing tyranny. Some even question if we are worth saving. I know this for a fact.

Safe zones are being built for the enlightened who are doing something while an ongoing parallel plan is being attempted to save all. My involvement with TVoP is a big part of that parallel plan and we have some bright, capable and motivated people now coming onboard to assist in building this new world. How things go will depend on how the masses respond to the crisis facing them. I do believe at some point there will be a separation of the two camps. Those taking action will have to be seen as exercising their sovereignty and be relatively unmolested. Those who still support the matrix will fall into the hands of the PTB and be "theirs". Probably with an agreement that "they" get to keep their slaves as long as the sovereigns do not rile up the slaves. That or the safe places get used.

If humanity wakes up, (especially the USA and UK) the world changes in weeks for the better.

The unfolding of the future is in our collective hands. The wisdom of those hands will matter greatly.

modwiz

22nd April 2015, 17:21

People on this planet are hacking up animal parts to feed their bodies. I believe this *consumption* runs way deeper than people would like to think. As above, so below- we can rise above this though. It needn't be like this.

It is certainly justification for the reptilians who like to eat some of us. We may not see it that way but, it does not change the "logic" of what the reptilians see. Probably see us a "free range" food.:ha:

ERK

22nd April 2015, 17:36

donk

22nd April 2015, 17:55

What's wrong with the way most people look at food? That they do it mindlessly. No idea what it really is or where it came from.

Think reptilians are like that? Why would we take it so personally then?

Don't blame "most of the planet". I don't even believe the "most humans" like what you outline...except the porn, of course :watch:

ERK

22nd April 2015, 18:01

modwiz

22nd April 2015, 18:01

I wonder if reptilians think clowns taste 'funny'.:hilarious:

Aragorn

22nd April 2015, 18:06

What's wrong with the way most people look at food? That they do it mindlessly. No idea what it really is or where it came from.

Think reptilians are like that? Why would we take it so personally then?

There's a difference. Our food isn't capable of having a conversation with us. :ha:

donk

22nd April 2015, 18:07

There's a lot of very sick stuff that goes on ...................and most of the planet are buying into it (think media as one example that promotes violence, rape, fear and so on- this is what I am referring to). And I would venture to say most beings are very unconcsious of their actions. I have yet to see otherwise.

Yeah but I don’t think most humans (or even “part of the planet”) would choose that, if they were mindful.

And I don’t belief mindlessness is “human nature”.

And I think it’s important to make the distinction. In fact, it’s a variation on what I stated above: perhaps we need to analyze the energy exchange in the abuser-victim as detachedly as I suggested we should examine the predatory-prey food relationship.

Not that it’s abnormal (on inhuman, quite the contrary) to have an emotional reaction, but if we can’t get beyond that, we can only provide band-aids, not real healing.

ERK

22nd April 2015, 18:07

I wonder if reptilians think clowns taste 'funny'.:hilarious:

Clowns are creepy, so perhaps it is fitting consumption.

donk

22nd April 2015, 18:10

There's a difference. Our food isn't capable of having a conversation with us. :ha:

...yet..........what if we allowed them to evolve?

The pets I have done my best to make my family (I recognize I am not perfect in transcending the ownership paradigm) acted a lot more "human" than other similars I have encountered, especially on the emotional level.

Just being a step up on the "heirarchy of needs" (a la Maslow) seems to allow for more self awareness, whether it be human or domesticated animal...

modwiz

22nd April 2015, 18:13

There's a difference. Our food isn't capable of having a conversation with us. :ha:

We know they don't want to be killed. Words are not needed from them. If they were offered an exit, they would take it and we know that too.

Slaughter houses and battlefields are "loosh" generators of massive output and sustenance for energies that are not benevolent towards us. We feed them with our animal consumption practices. That is probably too much woo-woo and la-la-land for many flesh consumers. Hunting and fishing do not create the "factories" of loosh that abattoirs are. I am not speaking of fishing trawlers that turn ocean bottom into deserts. Those nets filled with thousands or millions of fish generate considerable loosh.

ERK

22nd April 2015, 18:19

That Guy

22nd April 2015, 21:33

There's a difference. Our food isn't capable of having a conversation with us.

But we can bet our collective @sses that our food is trying to converse with us, especially when it knows what we have in mind for it, lots of people eat dogs, cats, turtles, bunnies etc etc, those same people have other or the same animals as pets, and I am pretty sure most of them talk to them and the animals talk back to them, so when does a conversation qualify as a conversation? Speaking the same language cant be all of it, there is much more going on when one establishes a rapport with someone or something else, most of communication has to do with body language and what we see in eyes.

That's probably why the broccoli slumps over when it senses its proximity to my soupmaker, plants and animals usually know what's coming down the pipeline long before we do.

That being said, I like bacon on my broccoli, so my Karma is f@cked for many harvests to come, unless they forgot to inform the pig about karma I think, mwah, I'm good, don't feel guilty either.

Aragorn

22nd April 2015, 22:20

But we can bet our collective @sses that our food is trying to converse with us, especially when it knows what we have in mind for it, lots of people eat dogs, cats, turtles, bunnies etc etc, those same people have other or the same animals as pets, and I am pretty sure most of them talk to them and the animals talk back to them, so when does a conversation qualify as a conversation? Speaking the same language cant be all of it, there is much more going on when one establishes a rapport with someone or something else, most of communication has to do with body language and what we see in eyes.

That's probably why the broccoli slumps over when it senses its proximity to my soupmaker, plants and animals usually know what's coming down the pipeline long before we do.

That being said, I like bacon on my broccoli, so my Karma is f@cked for many harvests to come, unless they forgot to inform the pig about karma I think, mwah, I'm good, don't feel guilty either.

Hmm... I am getting the feeling that my point, although made in jest, is completely being missed. Everyone's picking up on that literal sentence. :hmm:

The point I was trying to make is that the human species is intellectually more evolved than animals. We can communicate via abstract means -- such as written language -- and we are (supposed to be) sapient. We not only use tools, but we also manufacture them. We have artistic expression. We have technology. So the fact that certain species of ETs -- and most notably, the Draco reptilians -- would be consuming us as food cannot be compared to the way we as humans consume animals as food.

Of course I am aware of the fact that animals communicate, and even though I do eat meat -- we are after all omnivorous by nature and I for one have found that my body really requires my diet to contain meat -- I would not be capable of eating the flesh of an animal if they were to tell me that said animal had a name, or what that name was. Over here in continental Europe, it isn't even a taboo to eat horse meat, and I have already eaten that too -- it is actually quite tasty, as well as very healthy -- albeit that this was rather exceptional, and it was many years ago. I now have my own ethical objections against that.

I am definitely a meat eater, but I can only eat meat if it's from an anonymous animal. And then I still have certain considerations regarding the species of animal. I like ham and bacon but I won't eat pork chops. So the meat I usually eat is either veal or lamb, and occasionally some poultry. I don't eat any seafood because I find the taste revolting, and I will also not eat any of the "exotic import" flavors of meat -- such as dolphin, kangaroo or crocodile -- out of principle.

From the psychiatric point of view, the Draco reptilians would classify as sociopathic -- they do not possess the ability to empathize with anyone or anything -- and therefore they also have no respect for any other species than their own. They consider themselves superior to everything else, even. And that is, in my humble opinion, why they take no issue with consuming humans (or other sapient species) as food. It's not even unthinkable that they would even be engaging in cannibalism whenever they have an outburst of anger.

The bottom line is that I do not believe that the issue of certain ET species consuming humans as food would be a matter of their purported higher position on the evolutionary ladder compared to us -- and thus, that the issue would be comparable to how we humans eat the flesh of animals that dwell here on Earth -- but that, in my opinion, it is a matter of sociopathic beings who by definition consider anything other than themselves as inferior, and who are very aggressive and quite ferocious.

That Guy

22nd April 2015, 23:35

The point I was trying to make is that the human species is intellectually more evolved than animals.

Not too sure about that Aragorn, we seem to be needing an awful lot of crap to make our lives work, no coat, you're dead, no shelter, you're dead, no fur, frikkin dead again, we are the most awkward beings on this planet as far as I can tell, everything is doing fine just as is besides us, ambition is nice of course, but hey, why do we need all this crap before we can be even remotely comfortable, the only reason we can find the time to talk about reason is because of supermarkets, no supermarkets and were all dead, ok not all of us but at least 95 % of us, aaaaaaaaaand we are back in the food chain.

ERK

22nd April 2015, 23:38

Chester

23rd April 2015, 03:54

I wonder if reptilians think clowns taste 'funny'.:hilarious:

1201

monk

23rd April 2015, 09:42

donk

23rd April 2015, 17:12

There is no comparison. Though we kill animal life to consume protein to survive, the Draco terrify the purest of our young to produce FEAR which they get high on. Are food and drug use the same? Does a society need drugs to survive? If I had to get my weed by traumatizing/abusing/mutilating an infant I don't think I'd be a weed smoker.

Moments will pass and we will be able to replicate the protein by other means, and ol snakey will still be trying to get jacked up on human suffering, for fun and not nourishment.

This is exactly what I am talking about.

Why do we take it so personally, that there might be "life" that feeds off of our emotional energy?

As far as drugs, it is an activity that free will having beings CHOOSE, therefore it is "life", it is an energy exchange, it just seems different from eating food, but really--how different is it?

Having your attachment to the idea that it's somehow more "evil" than to eat veal is scary, and feeds it their form "veal" (or the best heroin...I'm not one to determine ET motives), I would guess...and the idea of not being able to relate the way we treat "lower species" to this idea of "savior paradigm" in the space operas we are all so riveted by is to me exactly what ERK says: EXTREME COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

monk

23rd April 2015, 17:26

how different is it?

Obviously the need for food is different than the desire for drugs, as much as I might try to lie to myself sometimes, lol, its different. Food is needed to survive and is a right be it plant or animal, narcotica is not a right especially if the narcotic is only produced through acute and terrifying pain/suffering.

If you want to consider yourself in the same situation as veal by all means do so, I know I would prefer to die as veal at the hands of a human than endure what the draco do to their "food".

donk

23rd April 2015, 17:35

Aragorn

23rd April 2015, 17:44

When I say "drugs", I mean any choice we make for self gratification, which makes it addictive by it's very nature. My worst drug addiction is to shiny rectangles, a hundred times worse than THC, caffiene, rivaled only by the sh!t they put in the food these days to make toxic crap so dang irresistable.

My point though, is that perhaps we'd be wise to examine our emotional attachments to our beliefs about these relationships, particularly "evil".

Is a vampiric entity's choice to consume our energy, truly "worse" than our decision to be willfully ignorant that in order to consume our veal someone had to torture a baby cow? Are "veal" producers automatically "evil" by human standards? Is the behabvior, the choice, the consciousness, the energy exchange REALLY that much different?

...and is not cognitive dissonance to speak of our ability for "empathy"? We also have the ability to choose to behave exactly as the beings we project strange motives on to.

I could be wrong. Perhaps you KNOW the motives of reptilians, and understand their relationship with the energy exchange that goes on when they "torment" humans. I am suggesting it may not be exactly as we are perceiving it.

What makes it evil, in my opinion, is when there is a wilful infliction of pain and suffering involved. I love veal, but I wouldn't want the animal whose flesh I'm consuming for my survival to suffer. Predators in Africa also don't make their prey suffer. They kill it swiftly and for most part painlessly. A lion, a cheetah or a leopard always go for the jugular, while at the same time suffocating their prey with their powerful jaws.

Intelligent beings who make other beings -- and then even more especially, other intelligent beings -- suffer on purpose for the sake of "recreation", not even for survival, that's what makes it perverse in my book.

donk

23rd April 2015, 18:25

Predators in Africa also don't make their prey suffer. They kill it swiftly and for most part painlessly. A lion, a cheetah or a leopard always go for the jugular, while at the same time suffocating their prey with their powerful jaws.

Intelligent beings who make other beings -- and then even more especially, other intelligent beings -- suffer on purpose for the sake of "recreation", not even for survival, that's what makes it perverse in my book.

So you KNOW that any life form that intentionally makes us "suffer" does so for the motive of "recreation"? You can't imagine a form of life that feeds off emotionally energy the same way a plant does sunlight (or we do food)?

You KNOW that there are creatures you describe, without the ability for empathy but are motivated to torture us...because that's how they choose to spend their time? It just doesn't make sense to me. Especially in context that you are able to show a lack of empathy toward creatures that seem to have a degree free will on their own, and moral relativity toward their torture.

So I will bring this back toward the topic more, I believe that once I learn of suffering of another living creature, it becomes my responsibility to try to help relieve it. I understand that in this infinite universe, helping one I know of may be "harming" another that I am not. I understand that this is risk in acting the "savior".

I believe that if we can detach emotionally from the beliefs we have about reality, we can analyze these relationships more accurately, and make better decisions. Having an automatic association of "fear" when someone mentions "savior" does not serve us. Whether or not it someone's responsibility to help us if they are equipped and in a position to, I just told you: My very being is to try to take that role any opportunity I get.

What is really going on seems to an avoidance of an aspect of this discussion, and that is the nature/motivation of those that would enslave us. Perhaps if we ever obtained more accurate and less emotional feedback on that, we would be better equipped to avoid it. As long as we hang on to this habit of taking personally that someone/something is doing this to us (keeping us victims with strong and convoluted emotional attachment to the very idea of victimhood), we're never going to get out.

Maybe you are incapable of applying the "as above, so below" connection here, but I will never be able NOT to. Whether or not you are conscious of it, I would think it was "good" if some being prevented the baby cow from being tortured, and it is not that baby calf's responsibility to save itself. Maybe our seemingly greater self-awareness gives us more responsibility in our current situation than the baby cow chained up in the slaughterhouse, but I am just cautioning that it might not be a failing to want or even welcome a "savior" outside of ourselves to help us allieve our suffering.

It IS our responsibility to learn the motives and methods of enslavers, who seem to have the very effective method of posing as "saviors". But it would be wise to imagine/keep in mind that predators of that level of sophistication should be pretty capable of adjusting their tactics as their "prey" learns to defend against them.

But again, my point is we can never even get to this level of thinking until we drop all our bad/old ideas and especially the emotional associations to the predator-prey relationship. In the grand scheme, we are responsible, if we suppose evolution and survival of the fittest and all that...but it seems that sovereign critical-thinking humans are an endangered species...where our fate seems less likely to be that of the dinosaurs than it does the fate of whatever cows were before we starting domesticating them.

There's a lot of dynamics at play here: I wanted to be freed from the cultural programming that prevents independent, critical thought. Bringing carnivorous lizards into the equation is a different matter, I brought my perspective in there not for the fear-of-being-food angle, but to analyze our relationship with energy exchanges in a more general sense. If I saw humans getting devoured, it might be a different story. I only see humans being enslaved.

Cup

23rd April 2015, 18:27

I understand PINING for ET to save us self-destructive behavior, I�m not advocating that. What I am wondering about is why there seems to be such strong emotional reactions to the very idea something other than us might help us?

Maybe it has to do with objecting to the creation of hopes that will make people lazy, passive and loosing perspective of what needs to be "saved". Perhaps because it under certain circumstances is disempowering.

Some market the concepts that there will be immense riches and comfortable lives coming around the corner, or that they are fighting an extraterrestrial war on our behalf to save us.

Helping is one thing, saving us is another thing. What we need to be saved of is our individual low vibrational egotistic vibrations and that can be done sitting on a pile of gold, or a pile of dirt.

Maybe because much of the "help" offered is just new deceptive ways to keep us enslaved.

donk

23rd April 2015, 18:34

Maybe because much of the "help" offered is just new deceptive ways to keep us enslaved.

Agreed. I guess I'm worried there seems to be a more than "natural" fear seemingly intentionally attached, and it is based on the idea that wolves are coming in sheep's clothing.

While it is a healthy fear to have for survival, the emotional attachment to seems to have ramped up lately...and to repeat, to me it seems intentional.

ERK

23rd April 2015, 18:35

donk

23rd April 2015, 18:46

You don't want veal to suffer? You realize what an oxymoron that is? Have you any idea how veal came to be veal and how it is raised? http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html

If ET's really want to help those on this planet, I think one of the first places they need to start is the *food arena* and by food, I do not just mean food we consume for *nourishment* (hardly, that as I hate to use that term) but other food as well. If there are really some higher vibration ET's , well maybe they ought to have a chat with us about the level of vibration the food we consume is vibrating at- frequency wise. Torture- food for thought.

I think it is bizarre how hitting reply to quote came up with this whole quote, as I'm only seeing but what is in red...but I guess that's the forum fairies dinking around with the posts again....anyhow:

You are kinda touching/demonstrating my point...from the other angle. Just as we need to rethink or at least analyze our emotional attachment to how poorly others treat "food" or other living beings, we need to look at how we feel about other people's beliefs.

In particular, I understand and agree...the cognitive dissonance hurts my head. But instead of getting all bent and throwing my perspective at Aragorn, I step back and wonder: why is this in my presence? Why is such a seemingly intelligent individual standing by such absurdity? Does he even know what he is saying? Does he believe it?

MODS: I am reporting this post because what I bolded came up in when I hit "reply with quote" to post #49....and I am not seeing this text anywhere...so something strange is going on.

UPDATED...nevermind, my computer was reading the future :blsh:

modwiz

23rd April 2015, 18:51

You don't want veal to suffer? You realize what an oxymoron that is? Have you any idea how veal came to be veal and how it is raised? http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html

If ET's really want to help those on this planet, I think one of the first places they need to start is the *food arena* and by food, I do not just mean food we consume for *nourishment* (hardly, that as I hate to use that term) but other food as well. If there are really some higher vibration ET's , well maybe they ought to have a chat with us about the level of vibration the food we consume is vibrating at- frequency wise. Torture- food for thought.

The level of meat eating on this planet, especially the factory farm/slaughter food chain, is hugely responsible for the continued low vibrational frequency of humanity. Not to mention the hypocrisy of it since none of us want to be a meal for reptilians. It should follow that other sentient warm-blooded beings do not wish to be consumed and experience great anguish and torture during their being raised for slaughter. Lives so miserable that slaughter is the most merciful part of their lives. This is a planet wide issue and a statement by humanity of the level of their consciousness.

Hunting is another story and is a far more honest contract with the consumed animal. Not to mention the animal living a natural life until being "harvested". Our lack of compassion for other sentient beings puts humanity on the same vibrational wavelength as the Dracos. We deserve each other. Lack of compassion comes from operating from the reptilian brain. A cold-blooded world view and practices.

Church

23rd April 2015, 18:53

Donk, It looks to me like ERK might have been editing the post right about the time you clicked the quote button. Everything that is showing in your quote bubble is appearing in the post you quoted. :tiphat:

modwiz

23rd April 2015, 18:54

I think it is bizarre how hitting reply to quote came up with this whole quote, as I'm only seeing but what is in red...but I guess that's the forum fairies dinking around with the posts again....anyhow:

You are kinda touching/demonstrating my point...from the other angle. Just as we need to rethink or at least analyze our emotional attachment to how poorly others treat "food" or other living beings, we need to look at how we feel about other people's beliefs.

In particular, I understand and agree...the cognitive dissonance hurts my head. But instead of getting all bent and throwing my perspective at Aragorn, I step back and wonder: why is this in my presence? Why is such a seemingly intelligent individual standing by such absurdity? Does he even know what he is saying? Does he believe it?

MODS: I am reporting this post because what I bolded came up in when I hit "reply with quote" to post #49....and I am not seeing this text anywhere...so something strange is going on.

UPDATED...nevermind, my computer was reading the future :blsh:

We has orcses about, Preciousss.

modwiz

23rd April 2015, 18:56

Calz

23rd April 2015, 19:05

The level of meat eating on this planet, especially the factory farm/slaughter food chain, is hugely responsible for the continued low vibrational frequency of humanity. Not to mention the hypocrisy of it since none of us want to be a meal for reptilians. It should follow that other sentient warm-blooded beings do not wish to be consumed and experience great anguish and torture during their being raised for slaughter. Lives so miserable that slaughter is the most merciful part of their lives. This is a planet wide issue and a statement by humanity of the level of their consciousness.

Hunting is another story and is a far more honest contract with the consumed animal. Not to mention the animal living a natural life until being "harvested". Our lack of compassion for other sentient beings puts humanity on the same vibrational wavelength as the Dracos. We deserve each other. Lack of compassion comes from operating from the reptilian brain. A cold-blooded world view and practices.

There also now is some serious spreading of "bird flu" in the usa.

Some suspect a not natural occurrence ... who knows?

So ... with mad cow and now turkey and chicken meat suspect ... that leaves ham (pig which is interesting for those that don't need it spelled out).

Not a bad time to consider going meatless??? (don't drag that into the tired old war ... simply a comment based on changing circumstances ...)

ERK

23rd April 2015, 19:05

Aragorn

23rd April 2015, 19:06

So you KNOW that any life form that intentionally makes us "suffer" does so for the motive of "recreation"?

That is not what I said. Please re-read what I wrote. I wrote that part in response to the comment from someone else that certain entities are feeding off of our fear.

You can't imagine a form of life that feeds off emotionally energy the same way a plant does sunlight (or we do food)?

It depends on what energy they feed off. The energy commonly referred to as "loosh" is a negative energy. Beings who feed off of negative energy are negative beings. And "negative" goes far beyond the "service-to-self" paradigm. We are talking of entropy versus order -- destruction versus creation.

You don't want veal to suffer? You realize what an oxymoron that is? Have you any idea how veal came to be veal and how it is raised? http://www.britishmeat.com/veal.html

Please re-read my post more properly. I think I made my position very clear. My body is omnivorous, so it requires a diet comprised of both vegetable and animal nutrients. That's just the way it is, but I never said that I like it that way. Furthermore, I also believe that I did clearly state that I do not approve of inflicting suffering, and my mention of the predators in Africa was intended as an illustration of how it is possible to kill without inflicting any unnecessary suffering.

In fact, given the "tools" we have in our industrialized society, it is quite perfectly possible to kill without inflicting any pain at all. But here in the West, we can't be bothered because we think money is more important and so the more animals we can pack up into tiny little spaces and then brutally execute, the more money comes in from the industrial machine. And over in the Middle East, slaughtering animals painlessly is taboo because it's against their religious beliefs.

I'm not saying I like it. I'm just saying that this is how it is. No more, no less.

ERK

23rd April 2015, 19:09

Cup

23rd April 2015, 19:14

It IS our responsibility to learn the motives and methods of enslavers, who seem to have the very effective method of posing as "saviors". But it would be wise to imagine/keep in mind that predators of that level of sophistication should be pretty capable of adjusting their tactics as their "prey" learns to defend against them.

But again, my point is we can never even get to this level of thinking until we drop all our bad/old ideas and especially the emotional associations to the predator-prey relationship. In the grand scheme, we are responsible, if we suppose evolution and survival of the fittest and all that...but it seems that soverign critical thinking humans are an endangered species...where our fate seems less likely to be that of the dinosaurs than it does the fate of whatever cows were before we starting domesticating them.

There's a lot of dynamics at play here: I wanted to be freed from the cultural programming that prevents independent, critical thought. Bringing carnivorous lizards into the equation is a different matter, I brought my perspective in there not for the fear of being food angle, but to analyze our relationship with energy exchanges in a more general sense. If I saw humans getting devoured, it might be a different story. I only see humans being enslaved.

I agree with you. Good discussion.

Cup

23rd April 2015, 19:17

Agreed. I guess I'm worried there seems to be a more than "natural" fear seemingly intentionally attached, and it is based on the idea that wolves are coming in sheep's clothing.

While it is a healthy fear to have for survival, the emotional attachment to seems to have ramped up lately...and to repeat, to me it seems intentional.

Oh yes, oh yes.

Cup

23rd April 2015, 19:21

If ET's really want to help those on this planet, I think one of the first places they need to start is the *food arena* and by food, I do not just mean food we consume for *nourishment* (hardly, that as I hate to use that term) but other food as well. If there are really some higher vibration ET's , well maybe they ought to have a chat with us about the level of vibration the food we consume is vibrating at- frequency wise. Torture- food for thought.

Very good point. Just from the perspective of what and how humanity feeds, it gets about what it deserves.

Cup

23rd April 2015, 19:22

Hunting is another story and is a far more honest contract with the consumed animal. Not to mention the animal living a natural life until being "harvested". Our lack of compassion for other sentient beings puts humanity on the same vibrational wavelength as the Dracos. We deserve each other. Lack of compassion comes from operating from the reptilian brain. A cold-blooded world view and practices.

Absolutely agree.

donk

23rd April 2015, 19:26

OK, we definitely need a savior, or to become saviors...to purify our food and eating habits, got it.

What we consider "negative", definitely can only be viewed that way, and so is something fear and try to eliminate...got that too.

Anyone want to talk about emancipating ourselves from mentally slavery? I've heard that no one but ourselves can free our mind...

Cup

23rd April 2015, 19:32

Anyone want to talk about emancipating ourselves from mentally slavery? I've heard that no one but ourselves can free our mind...

Go back to nature, take advantage of the healing herbs :garden:

ERK

23rd April 2015, 21:03

Jano

23rd April 2015, 22:20

Thanks Donk, here's a few comments. A lot of people are looking for a savior because of the insecurity of the unknown, we don't know where we come from, why were we brought here on Earth?, who created us, etc., but the main thing is, where do we go upon death. And if one add all of what we are here to witness (corruption, wars, famine, abuses of every possible way), no wonder people would love to have a big brother watching over their shoulders. But realistically, I don't see ET coming our way, I may be wrong though.

The last 8000 years (+ or -), through Education, we have come to raise our Standard of Living in most Developped Nations of the World, still, problematics situation stand in Underdevelopped one, but Education bring in Knowledge (even if it's under Illuminati Control) bring in something to talked about, to continue research, etc.. I think that KNOWLEDGE may be one type of savior we don't often reckon! My 02 cents.

donk

23rd April 2015, 22:51

Hmmm, it occurs to me...we won't get rid of the paradigm (idea), until we get rid of the idea of "evil".

Once we start actually believing the things we tell ourselves, like "there's a reason for everything, no coincidence", "it is what it is", and so on...when stop with these strange motives we project on to external "problems", then there will be no need for it

Once we recognize we are all one, and all is well, it won't even make any sense

Lemual

25th September 2016, 05:52

We deserve each other.

To me this is a harsh view. An analogy:

A man finds a dog, traps it and tortures it. The dog becomes extremely aggressive and vicious. Does the dog "deserve it's owner"? Is it the dogs responsibility to raise its vibration and overcome the torture put upon it by the superior being? Does or CAN it even be aware of the manipulation?

I'm not saying we're not responsible for our own actions, but if the "universe" (or whatever laws govern it) say it's "ok" to trick and manipulate people at such a level that they have no idea whats being done to them, then it should be ok to (at least) say to them "Hey you're being manipulated" in a way that is irrefutable.

modwiz

25th September 2016, 06:11

To me this is a harsh view. An analogy:

A man finds a dog, traps it and tortures it. The dog becomes extremely aggressive and vicious. Does the dog "deserve it's owner"? Is it the dogs responsibility to raise its vibration and overcome the torture put upon it by the superior being? Does or CAN it even be aware of the manipulation?

I'm not saying we're not responsible for our own actions, but if the "universe" (or whatever laws govern it) say it's "ok" to trick and manipulate people at such a level that they have no idea whats being done to them, then it should be ok to (at least) say to them "Hey you're being manipulated" in a way that is irrefutable.

I do not compare a human to a dog. Humans were given more responsibility on this planet. We were put on this planet to create a world. We are the creators of the second stage of Creation. If you wish to compare yourself with a dog. Go for it.:tiphat:

Lemual

25th September 2016, 06:27

The analogy was more in reference to the comparative difference between dogs and us and us and (insert higher being).

We form organisations for the protection of less aware beings and take direct action if some of our peers purposefully harm them (eg in Australia RSPCA) We even have laws to prevent this kind of treatment to these creatures with clear penalties for those who break them. Would it really be an issue if some other "higher" group did the same thing?

Perhaps a different example. You see a person sneaking up behind another person with a knife looking like they are about to stab them. Sure you could stand back and say nothing, maybe you think if they where more aware then they could detect the danger themselves and save themselves. Personally I'd be in favour of at least yelling out 'HEY! LOOK BEHIND YOU!"

modwiz

25th September 2016, 06:31

Lemual

25th September 2016, 06:39

I have a huge amount of respect for anyone taking a pro-active stance in this arena. Your courage is admirable :tiphat:

johnjen325

25th September 2016, 07:32

I see the analogy and see it's validity as well as its limitations…

My 2¢…
There are some who are so heavily manipulated and Imprinted (my term for fractured and/or programed etc.) that they really don't have much if any freewill left, or enough anyway, to be able to step out of their Imprinting, in any meaningfully quick way.
These techniques have been used in varying 'strengths' on groups large and small.

But when taken to an extreme and your personality is deliberately fractured and then imprinted with deliberacy, it can take the rest of your life to 'recover' even enough to regain control of ones self.
That is if it even does pop up on ones 'radar'…
For many it won't and for fewer still it is not even a possibility, at all.

The best example I can think of are the 13 families and their offspring.
Not to mention all of the rest of the hierarchical structure that has been built up over the centuries.

My point I guess is, The 'Cabal', the existing hierarchical power over structure, is so heavily Imprinted in the first place, I really doubt that many at or near the top, have any choice(s) left.

Now granted the degree of Imprinting is VASTLY different between these groups, but the basic Imprinting and conditioning, with deliberate intent and powerfully applied force, results in very similar results.

It's just a matter of degree.

And at the other end of the scale is the majority of folks in the US and Israel and plenty of other countries who are so dumbed down via variations of these same imprinting techniques, that they too know of no other possibilities.

Yet.

JJ

donk

10th January 2017, 12:42

It seems to me that the inauguration of the Donald will mark a sort of transition in the "savior paradigm", for better of for worse. The dems in this election acted like the previously successful repubs, putting up the next in line for the throne rather than considering a candidate "we the people" may actually want.

Regardless of how many repubs find the situation pleasing or not, the "savior" from the political heirarchical bullsh!t used their party, now they have to deal with that or adjust their thinking about the "way things have always been"...at least throughout the beginning of this century.

Whether the installation of Trump was completely contrived (as I believe all of our elections probably have been), or accurately reflects the will a portion of the population, it SHOULD reveal how to some how disempowering that holding the POTUS to the savior paradigm (in our minds) can be.

While there will be plenty unable to see anything beyond the superficial bs stories the media will tell us about "what Trump did (or did not do)", hopefully the (false) choices presented to us in this election will have some questioning the way we thoughtlessly give power to "authority"

At the very root...I believe that what the "savior" paradigm is about. Deferring to authority seems a pretty "human" thing to. This is because deferring to ACTUAL, EARNED authority is a NATURAL thing to do. An inexperienced pup is right to look up to its experienced elders to learn how they have lived so much longer than they have.

The "human" problem is that we seem programmed to care more about others' emotional attachment to the authority of their choice. The social norm is to punish those that challenge the authority of those in their established roles. The institution is so unquestionable, that the only thing we believe we can do is sit on the sidelines and bitch about the personalities (and emotionally charged issues they are tasked to conjure) that inhabit the non-negotiable structure.

I have hope that the absurdity from the past year is the push the thinking and "think-they're-thinking" doubters and fence-sitters needed to see how dysfunctional this reality we create actually is. Then maybe we won't need a Jesus or Malcolm X or Crazy Horse or whatever "true activist model savior" type to shift the mindset...and hopefully we won't fall the old thinking that the POTUS of this best-est country eva is the only one that can fix the mess in the world.

The true "authority" should be given to the individuals that point out...and get others to believe...the cognitive dissonances that shape this reality we find ourselves. That help people see through the crap to what actually matters. The "saviors" we unwittingly worship as a CULTure have only "saved" property and the right for individuals to have as much as they want at the expense of EVERYONE and EVERY THING else.

TRUTH is the savior, and those that can bring it to deluded masses need to be marginalized by the decievers. Now that we have a reality show personality starring in the biggest role of the biggest game around, maybe the lies of the structure itself will be the "saviors" that expose the issues we face and change the paradigm.

Hoping for a "savior" was never a legitimate problem. It was latching on to one individual, one set of ideas, a black and white reality we become extremely attached to...that's the TRUTH analyzing the differences of opinions on "individual saviors" distracts us from. The messages they transmit gets lost or twisted or corrupted.

What I find on the personal level is that truth holds up over time. We may be in an era where we get some BIG lies crumble...

modwiz

10th January 2017, 13:41

Darn good post, Phil.

donk

11th January 2017, 14:03

Saw this on my FB feed, Bernard Guenther says it better than me:

All right, going beyond the political circus side show and distraction.....

Anyone who is are familiar with my work (https://veilofreality.com) knows that I write and talk a lot about the Hyperdimensional Matrix Control System (HMCS). What it comes down to is that humanity is not on the top of the food chain and humanity is not in control of itself. The idea of "free will" is in many aspects an illusion. Everything you see on the world stage is manipulated and designed to create this "food" frequency and keep humanity in a frequency prison by forces outside our five-sensory perception, working through us/others (including the elite/controllers on a 3D level) and distracting us by the shadows on the wall/world stage (divide&conquer) and official cult-ure. "Government" (or any belief in authority) is also an "archonic" creation; the perfect foundation to keep people in endless conflict with each other, disempowered and produce all the "loosh" to feed upon. In a nutshell, the HMCS is the totality of forces and mechanisms that aim to keep us spiritually asleep.

Currently these occult forces are on overdrive, trying to lock humanity into a frequency prison (which will be heightened with the dawning of Transhumanism and A.I.) to counter-act the "Divine Awakening Force" during this Time of Transition. Yet, this increase of friction (and it will get more intense) and suffering can serve as catalyst and (inner) alchemical initiation for people to truly start questioning everything they ever believed in and were told/taught by official culture and most importantly to engage in sincere self-work and embodiment practices. The choice, as always, is within each Individual and also depends on his/her soul potential, for not everyone is here to "awaken" in this current cycle (and there is no judgment around that) as we are in the midst of a Timeline-Reality split. This is the apocalypse, which means "un-veiling", not "destruction" and "occult" means "hidden", nothing to do with "evil".

However, this is a "concept" that is really hard for most people to grasp and accept and is most often ridiculed and laughed off as "sci-fi", "conspiracy nonsense" or "mental/psychological delusion" because it's so far out their conditioned beliefs and view of life (by design of the same "force"), yet all the ancient mystery schools, shamanic and esoteric teachings (much of it has been suppressed and distorted over thousands of years for obvious reasons) have conveyed this truth for the ones with eyes to see and ears to ear in their own language and symbolisms, be it "The General Law" (Esoteric Christianity), Archons (Gnostics), "Lords of Destiny" (Hermeticism), Predator/Fliers - "The topic of all topics" (Shamanism, Castaneda), "The Evil Magician" (Gurdjieff), The Shaitans (Sufism), the Jinn (Arabian mythology), Wetiko (Native American spirituality), Occult Hostile Forces (Sri Aurobindo, Integral Yoga), etc...

It is not a "fairy tale", or "superstition". Our entire (modern) civilization and society is a product of this "force"....in fact an "alien" creation which we mistake as "human nature" where pathology has become normalized.

Don't wait for this Knowledge and Truth to be brought to you via TED, Oprah, The NY Bestseller list, mainstream "science", let alone any politician or celebrity-style spiritual gurus....and don't believe me either....find out for yourself, but don't ridicule/judge something or have an "opinion" about something until you have sincerely researched it yourself, which, in this case, also implies sincere esoteric self-work to perceive these forces directly, to "see the unseen" beyond appearances....and to ultimately free yourself from its influence via tapping into your own embodied connection to the Divine and Spirit within, i.e. DNA activation to reconnect with your original blueprint prior genetic modification.

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"There are beings in the spiritual realms for whom anxiety and fear emanating from human beings offer welcome food. When humans have no anxiety and fear, then these creatures starve. People not yet sufficiently convinced of this statement could understand it to be meant comparatively only. But for those who are familiar with this phenomenon, it is a reality. If fear and anxiety radiates from people and they break out in panic, then these creatures find welcome nutrition and they become more and more powerful. These beings are hostile towards humanity. Everything that feeds on negative feelings, on anxiety, fear and superstition, despair or doubt, are in reality hostile forces in supersensible worlds, launching cruel attacks on human beings, while they are being fed. Therefore, it is above all necessary to begin with that the person who enters the spiritual world overcomes fear, feelings of helplessness, despair and anxiety. But these are exactly the feelings that belong to contemporary culture and materialism; because it estranges people from the spiritual world, it is especially suited to evoke hopelessness and fear of the unknown in people, thereby calling up the above mentioned hostile forces against them."

~ Rudolf Steiner [Source (German): Rudolf Steiner - Die Erkenntnis der Seele und des Geistes – Berlin, December 12, 1907]

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“Look at what happened in 1914 – or for that matter at all that is and has been happening in human history – the eye of the Yogin sees not only the outward events and persons and causes, but the enormous forces which precipitate them into action. If the men who fought were instruments in the hands of rulers and financiers, these in turn were mere puppets in the clutch of those [hidden/hyperdimensional] forces. When one is habituated to see the things behind, one is no longer prone to be touched by the outward aspects – or to expect any remedy from political, institutional or social changes; the only way out is through the descent of an [embodied] consciousness which is not the puppet of these forces but is greater than they are.

Men are being constantly invaded by the hostiles and there are great numbers of men who are partly or entirely under their influence. At the present moment they are very active all over the earth. Of course in the outside world there is no consciousness, such as is developed in yoga, by which they can either become aware of or consciously repel the attacks – the struggle in them between the psychic (soul) and the hostile force goes on mostly behind the veil or so far as it is on the surface is not understood by the mind.

The apparent freedom and self-assertion of our personal being to which we are so profoundly attached, conceal a most pitiable subjection to a thousand suggestions, impulsions, forces which we have made extraneous to your little person. Our ego, boasting of freedom, is at every moment the slave, toy and puppet of countless beings, powers, forces, influences in universal Nature. All life is the play of universal forces. The individual gives a personal form to these universal forces.

But he can choose whether he shall respond or not to the action of a particular force. Only most people do not really choose – they indulge the play of the forces. Your illnesses, depressions, etc. are the repeated play of such forces. It is only when one can make oneself free of them that one can be the true person and have a true life – but one can be free only by living in the Divine.”

~ Sri Aurobindo, The Hidden Forces of Life - Integral Yoga

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Recommended reading:

- Timeline-Reality Split, Frequency Vibration and the Hidden Forces of Life
https://veilofreality.com/2016/08/02/timeline-reality-split-frequency-vibration-and-the-hidden-forces-of-life/

- The Matrix of Control – Beyond its 3D Manifestation
http://wakeup-world.com/2016/04/23/the-matrix-of-control-beyond-its-3d-manifestation/

- Hyperdimensional Manipulation and Anchoring a Higher Frequency
http://wakeup-world.com/2015/05/23/hyperdimensional-manipulation-and-anchoring-a-higher-frequency/

- How Much Are You Willing To Know? by Lisa Renee
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bernhard-guenther/how-much-are-you-willing-to-know/10154579179793908

- The Hidden Forces of Life by Sri Aurobindo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bernhard-guenther/the-hidden-forces-of-life-by-sri-aurobindo/10154750259538908

- Transhumanism - The Consciousness Trap
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bernhard-guenther/transhumanism-the-consciousness-trap/10154669722533908

- The Positive/Negative Realms of Higher Densities by Michael Topper
https://www.facebook.com/notes/bernhard-guenther/the-positivenegative-realms-of-higher-densities-by-michael-topper/10154557227353908