What is - Free will?

[InCiDeR]

I've been pondering about this question as of late.

For millenium we have been arguing about which tools to use to reach the top of the mountain.
Some find comfort in the buddhist way, others in christianity, and yet others in islam or any other spiritual way.

Here at ToT and "some other place" there have been discussions whether our soul, our mind or both are controlled by others or not,
how to break free and reach our potential. Should we go into the light after dead or not.
Is "next levels" controlled by benevolent or malevolent beings. Should we welcome ETs or not etc etc

Many of those discussions had one thing in common - Free will.

I suddenly became aware that I didn't really know myself what I meant with the statement - Free will.

Yes, I have a strong feeling what I mean, but when I try to formulate it in words it comes out like:_____________________

I realised it was a lot of variables to consider: contextual, structural, factual, social, biological, spiritual, psychological, realistic etc etc



So what do we really mean when we make a statement like:

- Well, that's ok as long as they honor my free will?

EDIT: I was also a bit after if people in general really had thought about the consequences if everyone all of the sudden expressed their free will... with all variables considered I see pretty much chaos in front of my eyes!


---

As I wrote above, I am still trying to understand myself.

I will just give a teaser meanwhile:

If oneness is an inevitable goal of all souls....

...wouldn't that also mean that oneness itself is breaking the rule of free will? ;)

[donk]

I've been pondering about this question as of late.



So what do we really mean when we make a statement like:

- Well, that's ok as long as they honor my free will?


---

As I wrote above, I am still trying to understand myself.

I will just give a teaser meanwhile:

If oneness is an inevitable goal of all souls....

...wouldn't that also mean that oneness itself is breaking the rule of free will? ;)

"honoring free will" is as a big lie we tell ourselves as "having rights"

I understand free will to be (at the least the illusion) that it seems like I make choices.

Unless you're the only free will being in existence (and I'm a fragment of your imagination, mr solipsist), "honoring" it is a delusion. It's a nice thing the good humans choose to do with one another. But it doesn't serve to you believe that ANYONE (even the other human) ever will. They have free will, after all...

[Astrael]

I see it in this way
free will exist when we have a choice
and from my view there is a dark side of materialism (money orientadet machines artificial intelligence etc.
behind this are beings who live from our emotions

the other side is the we call light side but is he really the light?
I call it Lucifers kingdom and it incorporate the wish to go away from the earth and live on the stars
behind this are also beings not so dark as the dark side the opposite side but also to live from our emotions
emotions of desire illusion as a lot of channels etc.

this are the two powers for me not devill but powers we have to handle keeping ballance

they are here for us that we grow
and we only can grow with challenges
than we get strong


do you ever have heared about CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS?
christ counsciousness is that state of being in absolute ballance
and it has nothing to do with churches or any doctrine

it is also the Buddhafield
the clear state of awareness
it is connection with source
it is pure love

we can with this love redeem this beings of the dark


there is a beatiful scene in the novel of Fjodor Dostojewsky The Karamasow Brothers
about the farmers wife who even love and pray for the devil

it's a good metapher about inconditional love
and inconditional love is never ever sugar love
it is the power of the heart coming from our soul
ego free in the sense that we transform the ego
the alchimistic transformation of ego (using the ego power for higher purpose never fight)


I hear so much storys about space wars .... wow let them do theyr fights who hooooo
about slavery of humanity.... I feel free... slavery is victim state and projection upon others they are the bad guys
they are guilty and now we need some ET's to save us.... so we never can become adult

I am a deliberate creator of my own reallity and this is my strong and powerful belief
it tooks some years of training and meditation but this sets FREE


our world is beautiful
I see it everywhere and I love my world


Aloha Astrael

[InCiDeR]

"honoring free will" is as a big lie we tell ourselves a "having rights"

I understand free will to be (at the least the illusion) that it seems like I make choices.

Unless you're the only free will being in existence (and I'm a fragment of your imagination, mr solipsist), "honoring" it is a delusion. It's a nice thing the good humans choose to do with one another. But it doesn't serve to you believe that ANYONE (even the other human) ever will. They have free will, after all...

Hi there old friend, been a while! Glad to see you around!

I tend to agree with the major part of your statement (or maybe it is you agreeing with yourself). So you mean that you never make a choice by free will, that everything is causal determinism?

I was also a bit after if people in general really had though about the consequences if everyone all of the sudden expressed their free will... with all variables considered I see pretty much chaos in front of my eyes!

[donk]

Not exactly (and nice to see you too...missed ya)...I said this on Descartes b-day (thanks google!!):

I believe I think, therefore I feel like I am

...so I believe free will is AT LEAST the illusion that whatever it is I AM, seems to be able to make choices. The illusion is strong enough that I believe, I base my existence on it, so it is.

So I think attaching "free" to it is kind of a confusion...the "free-ness" of it depends on self awareness, knowledge of this reality we find ourselves.

I exist in a "reality" where other beings (and perhaps all "things") have it, and am guessing that is why someone attached the "free" to it. But by its very nature, you can impose it on others (making theirs "less free").

That's why responsibility is so important (to me, and others like me). Whether or not intent is there, you have will, and will has consequences.

[InCiDeR]

Thank you Astrel for your thoughtful and eloquent phrases.

Just some follow up so a curious soul like me get it right, if you don't mind.




I see it in this way
free will exist when we have a choice
....so when we don't have a choice, free will cease to exist? in a way meaning we just have free will sometimes? Is free will always related to choices or in other situations as well?



do you ever have heared about CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS?
christ counsciousness is that state of being in absolute ballance
and it has nothing to do with churches or any doctrine

Yes, I am familiar with the concept. I find it quite interesting! It reminds me a bit of Dàodéjīng (Tao Te Ching) which also is more about balance than doctrines. (according to my perceived reality and interpretation)




there is a beatiful scene in the novel of Fjodor Dostojewsky The Karamasow Brothers
about the farmers wife who even love and pray for the devil

Yes, that is a most beautiful scene. I imagine that the world would be much different if we managed to do the same more often than not in our lives.


In eternity with peace
InCiDeR

[InCiDeR]

Not exactly (and nice to see you too...missed ya)...I said this on Descartes b-day (thanks google!!):

I believe I think, therefore I feel like I am

...so I believe free will is AT LEAST the illusion that whatever it is I AM, seems to be able to make choices. The illusion is strong enough that I believe, I base my existence on it, so it is.

So I think attaching "free" to it is kind of a confusion...the "free-ness" of it depends on self awareness, knowledge of this reality we find ourselves.

I exist in a "reality" where other beings (and perhaps all "things") have it, and am guessing that is why someone attached the "free" to it. But by its very nature, you can impose it on others (making theirs "less free").

That's why responsibility is so important (to me, and others like me). Whether or not intent is there, you have will, and will has consequences.

I liked that phrase "I believe I think, therefore I feel like I am". But who is "I" that "believes" in that phrase? Someone/something observing the "I"? Does it have a free will to believe or not? ;)

So if my I understands your I correctly... we are separate "I"s sharing an illusion we call "reality" in which we have access to different amounts of "free" will depending on our self awareness?

Interesting. So you mean there is a gradient scale of "free-ness".... hmmm not positive though if I see it like that, more like if you have free will you have free will whether you aware of it or not...
but have to run that through some more cognitive cycles, me thinks.

... and me likes this conversation...

[donk]

I liked that phrase "I believe I think, therefore I feel like I am". But who is "I" that "believes" in that phrase? Someone/something observing the "I"? Does it have a free will to believe or not?

It is actually that concept, which we are calling "free will", that I use to define what I am.

I believe that whatever it is that makes me ME, is that phenomenon, that it seems like I am making choices.

[donk]

I don't KNOW any more than that, but it is the root of how I make choices: taking responsibility for the fact that it seems like I can, and that others seem to also have this. I believe this is what makes us "all one", at a certain level.

It seems that there is a creative aspect to it, that making choices either is a form of creation in itself, or some manifestation is the result of it. The culmination of all free will choices of All That IS, is where we find ourselves

Those being with greater awareness of that (and other important aspects of the creation) necessarily have "more free will"...not in the literal sense that they are more "powerful" than anyone else, but they do possess power, more information means more choices means more possibilities.

It seems our particular situation is that some beings with a lot better understanding of the choices made (and manifest) up til now have chosen to use their free will to limit ours. I believe a weapon "they" use to impose their will on our own is the idea that we limit ourselves.

While it is true in a sense that we do, it is essentially the twisting of the truth that we CAN... I don't think the type of being that I seem to currently be would CHOOSE to limit myself, given correct information. I beleive another being (or group of beings) used their free will to hide knowledge from us. Then covered their tracks by weaponizing the ideas "that there's nothing external, all is within" and "you are responsible for your reality"....both sorta truths, twisted in a way to capture the minds of those that "think they think".

[InCiDeR]

It is actually that concept, which we are calling "free will", that I use to define what I am.

I believe that whatever it is that makes me ME, is that phenomenon, that it seems like I am making choices.

Ahhh, now I got you. That was a thought-provoking view.

Taking a break choosen by my imaginary free will... and recycle some thoughts!

Will probably be none the wiser, but I can always hope.

Thanks so far, donk!

[Astrael]

Thank you Astrel for your thoughtful and eloquent phrases.

Just some follow up so a curious soul like me get it right, if you don't mind.


....so when we don't have a choice, free will cease to exist? in a way meaning we just have free will sometimes? Is free will always related to choices or in other situations as well?



Yes, I am familiar with the concept. I find it quite interesting! It reminds me a bit of Dàodéjīng (Tao Te Ching) which also is more about balance than doctrines. (according to my perceived reality and interpretation)




Yes, that is a most beautiful scene. I imagine that the world would be much different if we managed to do the same more often than not in our lives.


In eternity with peace
InCiDeR


as humans we have the great oportunity of choice
and we have the challenge to become free by consciousness

evill forces (angels and demons) are NOT free
they have to act conform

we human have the choice of thinking free and acting free
free will we only become by working on ourself
develloping the astral aetheric ego body to the higher light bodys


this is the great work in Achemy
the transformation of lead to gold
the work on the Philosophers Stone
this work we are doing every day
we transform OURSELF to the Diamond (in tibetan Buddhism the Vajra)


yes we can act out of the compulsions of our natural being (reflexes, drives, desires)
or out of the compulsion of ethical principles
and that neither of these leaves us free
but BETWEEN however
is an individual insight, a partly situational ethic that arises neither from abstract principles nor from our bodily impulses
a deed that arises in this way can be said to be truly free
it is unpredictable and wholly individual



For Rudolf Steiner, the highest morality exists when a person acts in the world through deeds of love realized by means of individually developed and contextually-sensitive moral imaginations, This of course raises the difficulty of the one who loves evil and acts on the basis of this love. Are his actions of "the highest morality"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Freedom


sorry I am no more a mind orientated
philosophy we have since 5000 years but did we really changed? Osho

so I after a lot of mind work and mind f*ck came to emptiness of mind
of living in this moment and just appreciating every single moment

for me this is real freedom
like the japanes monk some centurys ago asking:

"Did there arrived devills? Did they arrived snakes?
I don't know, I am symply living in the land of Namo- Amida-Butzu." from the book of Suzuki

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

Aloha Astrid

[Astrael]

I don't KNOW any more than that, but it is the root of how I make choices: taking responsibility for the fact that it seems like I can, and that others seem to also have this. I believe this is what makes us "all one", at a certain level.

It seems that there is a creative aspect to it, that making choices either is a form of creation in itself, or some manifestation is the result of it. The culmination of all free will choices of All That IS, is where we find ourselves

Those being with greater awareness of that (and other important aspects of the creation) necessarily have "more free will"...not in the literal sense that they are more "powerful" than anyone else, but they do possess power, more information means more choices means more possibilities.

It seems our particular situation is that some beings with a lot better understanding of the choices made (and manifest) up til now have chosen to use their free will to limit ours. I believe a weapon "they" use to impose their will on our own is the idea that we limit ourselves.

While it is true in a sense that we do, it is essentially the twisting of the truth that we CAN... I don't think the type of being that I seem to currently be would CHOOSE to limit myself, given correct information. I beleive another being (or group of beings) used their free will to hide knowledge from us. Then covered their tracks by weaponizing the ideas "that there's nothing external, all is within" and "you are responsible for your reality"....both sorta truths, twisted in a way to capture the minds of those that "think they think".


love your thoughts donk:love:


there comes the crucial point in life when you observe
if you really think or if you are be thinked

and also when you become able to stop this inner voice
and than (in meditation( you slip to the other side of SILENCE
and in this silence is everything the ZERO POINT field


Aloha Astrael

[Herbert]

When your egoic personality is in balance, it is in alignment with your higher self soul. In that case you have free will to choose, and your choice will always be benevolent and free from victim hood. When you get out of balance your higher self will bring you back into alignment by allowing you to make bad choices, which includes not making a choice at all. The result of bad choices or not remembering you have a choice is pain in one form or another. A lot of bad choices leads to illness, suffering, and even death.

There are times when your higher self makes choices for you. That's because your ultimate free will is assigned to your higher self in alignment with your life plan.
Your higher self is also your conscience. For example a man likes to hunt and kill animals. He has no scruples in that respect. One day a Sasquatch comes out of the bush nearby to drink from the stream. The man has always swore that if he ever sees a Sasquatch he will shoot it. Yet the Sasquatch comes and goes without him ever raising his rifle. Afterwards he can't understand why he did nothing. That was the free will of his higher self overriding his egoic personality. That sort of person will probably never get it. He thinks someone outside of himself somehow stole his free will.

That is an extreme example but it emphasizes what is happening in the world now. We are only victims from the misaligned egoic perspective. There is a plan and our own personal goal is to find balance in our alignment with the soul. The higher perspective of each level of humanity from personal to countries working out the karma (knowledge and understanding) from many past lives of needed resolution. It is happening gradually but a lot of people can't see that.

[donk]

I've never understood the concept of a "Higher Self".

I am my self, my free will (or illusion of it). Some other being "higher" than that which is deciding to type this message is not me, just my regular old self is me. Anything "higher" and not thinking/making decisions is imposing on my will, whether it "benefits" me or not.

I guess I'm not very "enlightened", and not sure I can ever buy into that concept being other than some "fragmenting" of your "self". I believe in "higher" (having better awareness of self and the reality we share) beings, but not higher selfs. Self to me implies ONE, me.

[Cup]

What is Free Will

Free Will is an inherent quality of a spirit soul. Basically, if you reduce everything down to the most basic concept possible (in the matrix we exist at the moment) it's about the spirit soul's choice to act in a vibration of love or of ego or selfishness.

The consequence of Free Will is that we as individuals have the power to change our future. Free Will is the cause of the vibrational level we find our self in here. Free Will put us here and Free Will can bring us out of it, if we so desire.

Originally Free Will is a characteristic of Source, of whom we are parts and parcels.

[Cup]

I guess I'm not very "enlightened", and not sure I can ever buy into that concept being other than some "fragmenting" of your "self". I believe in "higher" (having better awareness of self and the reality we share) beings, but not higher selfs. Self to me implies ONE, me.

Me agree with you. But not on you being not very "enlightened" :)

[InCiDeR]

The seven Orthodox streams of thought in Hindu philosophy does not entirely agree on the question of free will.
For Samkhya is matter, for example, without freedom, and souls completely lack the ability to control matter.
The only true freedom (Kaivalya) is to realize the definitive split between matter and the self.

According to the Yoga school is only Ishvara completely free, and its freedom is also different from all the feelings,
thoughts, deeds and wills, and is therefore not at all freedom of will.

Nyaya and Vaisheshika-school metaphysics strongly suggest a belief in determinism, but seems to make no explicit
claims about determinism or free will.

A quote from Swami Vivekananda, a vedantisk Hindu, illustrates in a good way Hinduism approach to free will.

"Therefore, we see at once that there can not be anything like free will; the words themselves is a contradiction,
because will is what we know, and all we know is in our universe, and everything in our universe is shaped by the
conditions of time, space and causality ... In order to obtain freedom, we must take us beyond this universe limitations;
for it can not be here. "

The above quote has often been misinterpreted. People have assumed that Vivekananda insinuated that everything
is predetermined. In fact meant Vivekananda with the absence of free will to the will was not "free" because it was
heavily influenced by the law of cause and effect. He never said that it was absolutely determined and emphasized
the power to make conscious choices to change one's past karma.

The following two quotes of Vivekananda provides a clearer view.

"It's the coward and the fool who says that this is his destiny. But it is the strong man who stands up and says I make my own destiny.
The will is not free, it is a phenomenon bound by cause and effect, but there is something behind the will which is free."

---

Another way to consider free will in Indian philosophy can be found in the following on free will, evolution and chaos theory.
It represents a synthesis between the Indian karma and the modern physical approach of Free will.

Mimamsa, Vedanta, and the more theistic versions of Hinduism, such as Shaivism and Vaishnavism, have often emphasized
the importance of free will. The doctrine of karma in Hinduism requires, first, that we pay for our past actions and our present
action is free enough to allow that we deserve future punishments or rewards for our current actions. The advaitinska philosopher
Chandra Shek Hara Bharati Swaminah put it in the following way:

"Destiny is past karma, free will is present karma. Both are actually one, that is, Karma, although they may differ temporally.
There can not be any conflict if there is only one. Faith, as I told you, is the result of past exercise of free will. By exercising your
free will in the past drew you wearing the resulting fate. By exercising your free will in the present, I want you erases your history
passed if it offends you, or add more to it if it is enjoyable for you. In any case, you must exercise your free will in the present,
whether it is to give more happiness or to minimize suffering.

---

Different sources and filtered by my own interpretation as well

[InCiDeR]

I don't KNOW any more than that, but it is the root of how I make choices: taking responsibility for the fact that it seems like I can, and that others seem to also have this. I believe this is what makes us "all one", at a certain level.

It seems that there is a creative aspect to it, that making choices either is a form of creation in itself, or some manifestation is the result of it. The culmination of all free will choices of All That IS, is where we find ourselves

Those being with greater awareness of that (and other important aspects of the creation) necessarily have "more free will"...not in the literal sense that they are more "powerful" than anyone else, but they do possess power, more information means more choices means more possibilities.

It seems our particular situation is that some beings with a lot better understanding of the choices made (and manifest) up til now have chosen to use their free will to limit ours. I believe a weapon "they" use to impose their will on our own is the idea that we limit ourselves.

While it is true in a sense that we do, it is essentially the twisting of the truth that we CAN... I don't think the type of being that I seem to currently be would CHOOSE to limit myself, given correct information. I beleive another being (or group of beings) used their free will to hide knowledge from us. Then covered their tracks by weaponizing the ideas "that there's nothing external, all is within" and "you are responsible for your reality"....both sorta truths, twisted in a way to capture the minds of those that "think they think".

Very nicely put donk! I find myself much in agreement with these statement, where I am at the moment in my thought process, even though I wouldn't have managed to describe it in such a delicate and elegant manner.

[Cup]

The seven Orthodox streams of thought in Hindu philosophy does not entirely agree on the question of free will

I'm no academic scholar in this field, but my understanding there is more general consensus among the different schools when it comes to the basic concept of the soul, although they may have different way to express and understand free will in relation to the soul. They seem to differ more when it comes to the understanding of Source and the relation between the soul and Source. E.g. the Advaitists would emphasise the Oneness others the Difference and still others the simultaneous Oneness and Difference.

This is the basis for an (almost) eternal academic discussion in India.

You seem to know a lot about these things InCIDeR :wiz:

[InCiDeR]

I'm no academic scholar in this field, but my understanding there is more general consensus among the different schools when it comes to the basic concept of the soul, although they may have different way to express and understand free will in relation to the soul. They seem to differ more when it comes to the understanding of Source and the relation between the soul and Source. E.g. the Advaitists would emphasise the Oneness others the Difference and still others the simultaneous Oneness and Difference.

This is the basis for an (almost) eternal academic discussion in India.

You seem to know a lot about these things InCIDeR :wiz:

Very polite of you Cup. But not at all. I just trying to find words that speaks to my feeling of the statement "Free will"... the one that I left blank in my first post.

I was honestly pretty lazy in my translation and a bit easy-going in putting my own view on the matter, but I will better myself along the road.

I don't know what I don't know, neither do I know what I know...

But I notice though, that you yourself have some interesting thoughts and probably a dormant, humble knowledge in those matters as well :)

[InCiDeR]

as humans we have the great oportunity of choice
and we have the challenge to become free by consciousness

evill forces (angels and demons) are NOT free
they have to act conform

we human have the choice of thinking free and acting free
free will we only become by working on ourself
develloping the astral aetheric ego body to the higher light bodys


this is the great work in Achemy
the transformation of lead to gold
the work on the Philosophers Stone
this work we are doing every day
we transform OURSELF to the Diamond (in tibetan Buddhism the Vajra)


yes we can act out of the compulsions of our natural being (reflexes, drives, desires)
or out of the compulsion of ethical principles
and that neither of these leaves us free
but BETWEEN however
is an individual insight, a partly situational ethic that arises neither from abstract principles nor from our bodily impulses
a deed that arises in this way can be said to be truly free
it is unpredictable and wholly individual



For Rudolf Steiner, the highest morality exists when a person acts in the world through deeds of love realized by means of individually developed and contextually-sensitive moral imaginations, This of course raises the difficulty of the one who loves evil and acts on the basis of this love. Are his actions of "the highest morality"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_Freedom


sorry I am no more a mind orientated
philosophy we have since 5000 years but did we really changed? Osho

so I after a lot of mind work and mind f*ck came to emptiness of mind
of living in this moment and just appreciating every single moment

for me this is real freedom
like the japanes monk some centurys ago asking:

"Did there arrived devills? Did they arrived snakes?
I don't know, I am symply living in the land of Namo- Amida-Butzu." from the book of Suzuki

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-pure-land/

Aloha Astrid



Thank you Astrid for your clarifying thoughts. I like the way how your text flows as a reflection of your soul.


Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao.
Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.
As the origin of heaven-and-earth, it is nameless:
As “the Mother” of all things, it is nameable.
So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:
As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.
These two flow from the same source, though differently named;
And both are called mysteries.
The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence.
.....
Dàodéjīng, chapter 1

[Cup]

I don't know what I don't know, neither do I know what I know...

Me feel you. You know a lot :love:


But I notice though, that you yourself have some interesting thoughts and probably a dormant, humble knowledge in those matters as well :)

Na, not really :) I speak from my own experience and most often in a not so humble way.

Satyam bruyat priyam bruyat - truth should be spoken in a palatable way.

[Dreamtimer]

I believe in free will. We always make choices. We take action in life. Our intention, desire, motivation, wish, drive, are all part of our will. We use judgement, make decisions and take responsibility, all using our free will. When others control us, our choices, our decisions, our thoughts, they impinge on our free will. Obedience is only for children as they are learning to make decisions and take responsibility. As adults they abdicate that responsibility if they allow others to control their decisions. Obviously, some people live in systems of control where making their own decisions and having their own thoughts is very difficult. Thus, perhaps the rest of us have a greater responsibility to use our free will and act. And recognize it for the privilege it is. A mon avis (IMO). Perhaps we even have a responsibility to help others regain their control so they can use their own free will. I believe many here do just that.

[777]

I don't find the phrase "free will" tasteful in its' application on this planet. Freedom as a concept is conduisive to willingness of acknowledging its' success enacted, in order to define what free is. Willingness is a process one can either indulge in or not. Chasing the two in unity is akin to looking for purple oranges.

The phrase is an inadequate advertisment. By even using the phrase we are experiencing a question that shouldn't exist in its utterance whilst castrating our own intent (will) within its shaky shelter when used. We doubt our own free (ness) through trying to exert our will. Shouldn't it just be our "will"? Our harnessed intentions are the best manifestation of Will.

Our ability to exert will should not be hindered by a paranoid scale of validity, imo. We just Will It To Be. The freedom to do so is inherent and a given.

[Wind]

I believe that what happens to us is mostly pretermined, but due to free will there can be multiple pathways (some can be more painful and others less) and also we have the choice to act in each situation as we see fit. However, certain factions try to do everything they can to limit and even control our "free" will so that we would make foolish and possibly negative choices so that we don't proceed to a more positive direction as souls. Of course one of those factions would be our conscious mind - the ego, which certainly doesn't always know what is for our best. Our intuition (guidance from our true "higher" self) never leads us astray. We just need to listen to it.

In all of our lives there always comes moments where we are forced to make a choice, and that choice might define our whole life. Not always, but such things do happen. How do you choose to act towards yourself, how do you choose to act towards others? Do you choose to hurt or to help?

[donk]

I believe in free will. We always make choices. We take action in life. Our intention, desire, motivation, wish, drive, are all part of our will. We use judgement, make decisions and take responsibility, all using our free will. When others control us, our choices, our decisions, our thoughts, they impinge on our free will. Obedience is only for children as they are learning to make decisions and take responsibility. As adults they abdicate that responsibility if they allow others to control their decisions. Obviously, some people live in systems of control where making their own decisions and having their own thoughts is very difficult. Thus, perhaps the rest of us have a greater responsibility to use our free will and act. And recognize it for the privilege it is. A mon avis (IMO). Perhaps we even have a responsibility to help others regain their control so they can use their own free will. I believe many here do just that.

I disagree. Obedience is only for slaves.

And we should examine our relationship to that concept.

[Dreamtimer]

Donk, I'll go with you on that. I never expected my child to be obedient and I never used the phrase, "Because I'm the parent and I said so." My parents did. Many in society are obviously very authoritarian and many like to call for conformity and obedience. So maybe there's an excuse of sorts when someone demands that their child be obedient, but there is none for adults.

I will give my parents credit for raising me to think for myself. They never demanded that I believe what they believe or follow in their footsteps politically or professionally. In the conservative world it's not uncommon to be expected to toe the line, and many think obedience is necessary. I recently was listening to my brother and his friend go on for five minutes about how people should conform until I couldn't stand it anymore. I reminded them that we need creative, entrepreneurial thinking in society which means we need people who think outside of the box and don't just conform. Once I said that they agreed as if they were thinking the same thing. Which they weren't. People don't listen to themselves. That's why it's so easy for people to contradict themselves.

And that's why the same people who believe they're protecting freedom can be undermining it, all the time unaware.

So I don't obey anyone. Not my spouse, religious leader, political leader, boss, parent, guru (don't have one, never did), group leader, whoever. I take responsibility for myself and I raised my child to do the same.

[Astrael]

Thank you Astrid for your clarifying thoughts. I like the way how your text flows as a reflection of your soul.


Tao can be talked about, but not the Eternal Tao.
Names can be named, but not the Eternal Name.
As the origin of heaven-and-earth, it is nameless:
As “the Mother” of all things, it is nameable.
So, as ever hidden, we should look at its inner essence:
As always manifest, we should look at its outer aspects.
These two flow from the same source, though differently named;
And both are called mysteries.
The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence.
.....
Dàodéjīng, chapter 1




Love it InCiDeR

I see you live in the land of the snow mountains
greetings from the sunny coast of Portugal:hugs:



TILOPAS SONG OF MAHAMUDRA


Although space has been designated "empty",
In reality it is inexpressible;
Although the nature of mind is called "clear light",
Its every ascription is baseless verbal fiction.

The mind's original nature is like space;
It pervades and embraces all things under the sun.
Be still and stay relaxed in genuine ease,
Be quiet and let sound reverberate as an echo,
Keep your mind silent and watch the ending of all worlds.

The body is essentially empty like the stem of a reed,
And the mind, like pure space, utterly transcends
the world of thought:
Relax into your intrinsic nature with neither abandon nor control -
Mind with no objective is Mahamudra -
And, with practice perfected, supreme enlightenment is gained.

The clear light of Mahamudra cannot be revealed
By the canonical scriptures or metaphysical treatises
Of the Mantravada, the Paramitas or the Tripitaka;
The clear light is veiled by concepts and ideals.



Aloha Astrael

[InCiDeR]

A humble bow to all of you
for lending me a hand
while walking the land of fogs.

Helping me unveiling shapes and forms
of the beauty therein
and all the colors of grey.

Allow me to take some time
to contemplate
the sounds written
and the minds spoken
imprints of thoughts on white source code.


Free will


It seems that the words in themself
and the meaning thereof
is multi-layered.

Like a vessle traveling
the eternal void.

Every star passing by
has a meaning and a reason
to be just where it is
when it is
as it is.

Maybe my first impression
has no need to change
my unconscious already showed me
there are no words to describe it.

But I will try
when the time is right
and the cycle completes.



EDIT:


I see you live in the land of the snow mountains
greetings from the sunny coast of Portugal:hugs:

Portugal is one of my favorite countries I've been honored to visit, so much that I've been there twice! Greetings to you and Portugal as well!


In eternity with peace
InCiDeR

[lookbeyond]

Hi everyone, it seems like most of us here have pretty comfortable lives for eg we are probably not existing in slums of a third world country struggling every day to just stay alive...so my concern/question is..what of these peoples free will, do they have really any "power" to change their familys plight or are they "trapped" by their circumstances or is it, dare i say "karma" .

Speaking of karma, does it exist if free will does?, lb

[Catsquotl]

Hi everyone, it seems like most of us here have pretty comfortable lives for eg we are probably not existing in slums of a third world country struggling every day to just stay alive...so my concern/question is..what of these peoples free will, do they have really any "power" to change their familys plight or are they "trapped" by their circumstances or is it, dare i say "karma" .

Speaking of karma, does it exist if free will does?, lb

Free will in my view does not equate to the power to change your life's circumstances. It dies mean the power to choose or even not to choose. In my view free will is more the way you are free to respond to life however you like. Life is happening regardless.

Karma in the basic sense is no more than the "law" of cause and effect. Never in my view was it meant to be the punishment or reward tool that spans lifetimes.
Its simpler than that. You know what makes you temporarily happy. so you do more of it to be happier. simple cause and effect.

With Love
Eelco

[InCiDeR]

What comes first
Consciousness or will?

Can there be will without consciousness?
The will of gravity?

In a way, that could be considered possible. If our perceived universe and all the component therein would be an extension and expression of the so called "one consciousness".
In that scenario you could say that gravity has a will.
Is the will of gravity in that case a will without a decision node?
Meaning there is no choice involved?
The will to attract.
On the other hand, there could still be a decision made, the will to attract and not repel.

Does consciousness by default also have a will.
Could there be consciousness out there that does not have a will?
Is that even possible?

I don't know and I don't even dare to suggest so.
I guess we entering an area that can not be named here.

So consciousness first?... that creates a will within and without....the will to be... so maybe will is like a life force?
The wish to see something come into creation or be manifest in one way or another. Without it we would not be.

But doesn't the above also mean that in order for will to come into existence there must have been a "decision" made by that consciousness,
meaning there were already a will to create a will.

I would say consciousness and will came into existence simultaneously, with no one following the other.
They are interconnected and interdependent.
Like Yin and Yang, darkness nourish light and light nourish darkness.
They transform each other and give birth to everything.

To put free into the equation makes it difficult and maybe just blur the vision.

To have a will, in my point of view, it must necessarily be "free" in whatever direction it takes or in whatever situation.
(similar to what 777 mentioned earlier in this thread)

----

So when I see statements like "Aliens are welcome as long as they respect our free will".
I think the person who wrote the sentence might mean something different than each and every one that agrees to it.

The meaning of free will is more or less contextual, as I see it.
It is like an elevator, for every floor the explanation has a different meaning and layout.

Some might see free will as a behavioral freedom, freedom to go left or right or paint the house when they wish to... but maybe not kill the neighbour.
Others might argue from a freedom of thought perspective; "Don't try to indoctrinate me or in any other way influence my thought process".
Some might think about ideologies, values, beliefs and faith; "Don't try to push me in any direction, this is my stand and I would like to keep it".
Yet others see it as an emotional freedom; "I have the right to feel whatever I like".
Then we also have cultural values, social environment and genetics that may influence our view.
All of the above are in the same time intertwined and entangled with eachother.

"Free will" to me is a very complex and complicated matter, yet we all seems to easily agree when someone refers to "Free will",
as we all immediately knew what they meant.

Maybe its innermost meaning is all about intuition, emotion and feelings after all.

So, I will stick to my first statement: _____________________________________

but without "free" accompanying it or as a pretext


... for now....

[Catsquotl]

I think consciousness and will arise together. At this stage the one cannot exist without the other.
Will here is volition or intent. The intent and the knowing of it are distinguishable but nor separable. Like a blue circle. It has both a color and a vorm. both aspect distinguishable bit not separable..

Even though there is intention or volition and the knowing of it. does not mean one comes first and then the other. they appear together and eventually will disappear together.
If consciousness is that aspect that says there is volition within me. when the will is gone another consciousness arises that says there is no (longer) volition within me.

Taking the consciousness as memory the quality becomes there is another volition within me.

I see those as 3 distinct experiences without a continuous consciousness, but a consciousness that arises and passes based on conditions.

With Love
Eelco

[InCiDeR]

I think consciousness and will arise together. At this stage the one cannot exist without the other.
Will here is volition or intent. The intent and the knowing of it are distinguishable but nor separable. Like a blue circle. It has both a color and a vorm. both aspect distinguishable bit not separable..

Even though there is intention or volition and the knowing of it. does not mean one comes first and then the other. they appear together and eventually will disappear together.
If consciousness is that aspect that says there is volition within me. when the will is gone another consciousness arises that says there is no (longer) volition within me.

Taking the consciousness as memory the quality becomes there is another volition within me.

I see those as 3 distinct experiences without a continuous consciousness, but a consciousness that arises and passes based on conditions.

With Love
Eelco

Thank you Eelco for sharing your insights. It seems like we came to similar conclusions, but wording them differently. Like using same language but with different accent and local words.

[Cup]

...so my concern/question is..what of these peoples free will, do they have really any "power" to change their familys plight or are they "trapped" by their circumstances or is it, dare i say "karma" .

Speaking of karma, does it exist if free will does?, lb

Your power and every living beings power is related to Free Will. It is because of Free Will we have the power to change any situation although the change may not happen as quickly as we like, on the other hand it took time for us to create the situation we are in at this very moment as well.

It is probably helpful to widen the perspective a bit.

You would agree that understanding the plot of a two hour motion picture (running at 30 frames per second) by analysing one frame (our present life) would be impossible. Similarly when we see a living entity in a specific circumstance we see a frame of their movie, which could be very hard to understand, point is we are all the directors of our movies and Free Will allows us to develop our stories as we choose.

Karma and Free Will is often debated, karma is more the rules that dictate the environment (the Matrix, if you will) that has been created by Source for us to experience separateness from Source. Our Free Will created the Matrix but there are certain limits in how we can interact with it due to the level of vibration that we have chosen to put ourself in (i.e. an ego-vibration or low a vibration)

Complete freedom from any restriction and complete direct experience of Free Will can only be experienced when we have once again, by using Free Will, come back to the pure vibration of energy that is natural to the soul (to us). Some say that is a state of unconditional love, some say it's experiencing the Oneness of everything etc. But most agree it's a state that is completely free from ego-motives.

We can also turn the logic around and argue that people don't suffer because of the actions and results of their Free Will, then who put them in a state of suffering? An evil Source? Chance? (or there is no higher purpose of anything) This makes things very much harder to understand and most often lead to a mechanistic world view.

To conclude: yes, karma and Free Will goes well together.

[Cup]

I would say consciousness and will came into existence simultaneously, with no one following the other.
They are interconnected and interdependent.

I share that view, although I don't think there was a time they "came into existence", I think they are eternal. Eternally Us.


So when I see statements like "Aliens are welcome as long as they respect our free will". I think the person who wrote the sentence might mean something different than each and every one that agrees to it.

I agree again, this is relating to real (or imaginary) laws within the Matrix. Some profess there is a Galactic or Universal law that "Free Will" may not be interfered with. Although that law seems to be broken constantly. (according to others)

But yes, there is a huge difference when we speak of Free Will on a soul-level and Free Will as a conditioned ego-being.

[Rocket's Mom]

Wondering about Free Will tonight myself. Does it really exist here, NOW? I cannot write as eloquently as you all have here before me. I am not a philosopher. I am a mom raising kids.

Definition: Free: not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
Free Will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

By these definitions, who has free will here on planet Earth, in America, in North Carolina? I don't yet. Not really. Not when I take the magnifying glass to my life.

Perhaps I am a coward, but I still take a paycheck, pay taxes, put gas in my car, buy the cheaper non organic veggies, etc. I do all of these, all the while reading everything I can get my hands on trying to understand why all of those magnificent free beings out there in the multiverse seem to be waiting for us to do something. As if we had the free will and they didn't?



Wish I knew what they were waiting for.

[tinihanga]

As long as we reside on this prison planet, The only will we have is what we get spoonfed by the media..
Main stream and Alternative alike.

What we think of as our thoughts and our decisions is based on our upbringing and experiences in life.
Nothing free about that.

J.

[ERK]

I don't usually recommend channeled material but this is a very good book on the subject:

http://rightuseofwill.com/

[modwiz]

The book, Right Use of Will is very well composed. There are others that followed but, they did not have the "essence" of the original. I found the same thing with the "Conversations With God" trilogy. First one was brilliant, following two were forced out by the author. Something to do with publishing contracts.

Spirit will guide people to write specific books, sometimes only one comes through clean. First one "happens", others become contract obligations.

[tinihanga]

I don't usually recommend channeled material but this is a very good book on the subject:

http://rightuseofwill.com/

I am very careful with so called channeled material.
Can you say something more about it in terms of channeler and channeled entity before I dive in?

Thank you.

J.

[DeeZe]

I don't usually recommend channeled material but this is a very good book on the subject:

http://rightuseofwill.com/


The first two books in the series ("Right Use Of Will" and "Original Cause, The Unseen Role of Denial") are for me, two of the most deeply insightful books I have ever read. They are a must read IMHO.

First, an important question, what is the "will"?

Here is a quote from the book, Right Use Of Will (page ii)

The Will has long been misunderstood because the Spirit was seen to be the essence of the Body, but the understanding is this: the Spirit inspires, the Will responds to inspiration, and together they experience in the Body. Body is the manifestation of Both Spirit and Will. The Spirit, in fact, has only polarized itself in order to experience. The Will is the magnetic polarity of the 'Spirit.

The splits in consciousness that have taken place on Earth have created a situation where the Will is felt to be disconnected from, and not even a useful part of the Spirit. However, Will and Spirit are the expanding limits of a connected whole. Polarities need to be realized as evolving extensions of the same thing.

The Creation exists because it has both the Spiritual Essence which powers it and the Magnetic Polarity which opens the space to receive it. The same is true within each individual. The Spirit and the Will are not meant to be separate from each other in any individual any more than the Spiritual Essence of God is meant to be separate from His Divine Will. Each Will is connected to the Divine Will, and each Spirit is connected to the Divine Spiritual Essence; and so, everything is one.....