Truth Is Often Spoken Of

[JoeEcho]

Truth is often spoken of like it is known in absolute terms. But each speaks of it from their view point not considering that it is just that and not the thing itself.

Is speaking the truth..... The Truth?

If I speak for you, am I you?

The Truth stands alone unimpeded by words, thoughts, ideas, or art concerning it.

So what should we make of things spoken of in an authoritative way as if their origin is rooted in the Truth (as if they are one with the Truth)?


My words are words written but they are not the Truth. At best, they are but an echo of the Truth, which again....is not the Truth.


http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/8c40444692.jpg

[JoeEcho]

http://cdnpix.com/show/imgs/b69d730dcfaa3f4f83d43eefb6f0eda1.jpg

[donk]

Your words ARE words written and that IS the truth

[Shezbeth]

The following is a (very) loose paraphrase of a concept which was first introduced to me holistically (I'd gotten bits before, but fractured ones) in the Star Wars novel 'Traitor'.

Every thing I tell you is a lie. It is a lie because it is not the truth. Even if I were to attempt to tell you the truth, what I would tell you would be a summary of the truth, a simplification that would be devoid of detail and actuality. I could describe to you a rose, and would yet omit details which your eye could see if I were to show you a rose. Every word that can be spoken - no matter how effectively - will fall short of the reality it entails or pertains to. Words are not truth, are at best a consolation in absence of truth; what else is that which is less than truth, but a lie?

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1163697-traitor-star-wars-the-new-jedi-order-13

[Sooz]

Don't believe anything Shezzy says. He's a trickster, he said so himself! That's what his name stands for.

And so, he is telling the truth....:thup::whstl:

Sorry Shezbeth, couldn't resist.:grin:

[Shezbeth]

I hadn't thought of it. Quite the quandary you point out, for the guy who's name literally means (simply) "the liar" to claim "everything I tell you is a lie". Is that true? Oooooohhhhhh. ^_~

No need to apologize Sooz, at the very least you're right; one shouldn't believe what I say, they should believe what they choose to. ^_^

[Sooz]

I'm just pulling your leg in jest.:chrs:

[JoeEcho]

Logic is the course taken to the Truth but arrival is illogical (to logic).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZaJQvcyp7Is/U7hCBFJagUI/AAAAAAAAIgY/_u8JtDh8pc0/s1600/CLC+Spock.jpg

[donk]

I used to subscribe to the "everything is a lie" lie...and you can win arguments and look clever and have it be semantically correct and all that...but I found it a very impractical way to live.

I found it interesting how they set the robot in "Interstellar" to 90% truthful, seen that yet?

[JoeEcho]

I used to subscribe to the "everything is a lie" lie...and you can win arguments and look clever and have it be semantically correct and all that...but I found it a very impractical way to live.

I found it interesting how they set the robot in "Interstellar" to 90% truthful, seen that yet?

One does need to dispense with the Truth to be practical but that doesn't lessen the Truth.

Contrary to popular belief, practice does not MAKE perfect.

Practice is a way to live but it is not Life.

Ha! You think I posted this in an attempt to 'look clever' or even to 'be' clever? That is but an appearance and not the Truth.

Did you post what you did to look clever by exposing my cleverness? The spider weaves a web....

[The One]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140121032752/sixguns/images/e/e6/What_if_I_told_you_potato.jpg

[JoeEcho]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140121032752/sixguns/images/e/e6/What_if_I_told_you_potato.jpg

I'd say chip.

[donk]

I was addressing shez actually. I wasn't trying to be clever. The truth I found is that so what that everything is lies (including "the fact" that everything is lies, and apologies if that personal truth of mine comes off to you as an attempt to be clever)

What I was actually trying to do is show how "relative" truth is a more practical (for me, who once was stuck in thoughts similar to what you express and shez is champ at winning arguments about) perspective for me to function in this reality.

I totally agree with everything you are saying (and it's all very cute and clever), but in practical terms, I find useful to just agree with most beings similar to myself that this keyboard I am typing on is "solid". Sure...it really is nowhere close to the definition we made up for "solid". You can even call it a lie. In some contexts the "reality" or "truth" of it might be "useful" to explore.

For me, the best model I've understood is the probability/quantum physics type of thing where absolutes don't seem possible to realize, and statistically closer to absolutes (relatively, ie this table/3d reality is "solid enough" to accept that "lie" for the purposes of all but this and a few other types of discussions) is more important to find (practical) truths than THE elusive Truth...which seemingly according your "logic" can't exist anyway

[donk]

........................................

[donk]

http://jandeane81.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=912&d=1423588832

I scribbled this "response" as soon as I posted the last one...the pic didn't come out so good for people with eyes as crappy as mine...the text reads:

Listen: Friend,
and I'll tell you some
TRUTH so long
as you know
that I KNOW
It's nothing but LIES

I AM
or: at least,
I seem to BE...

Well, maybe NOT?
But I can say
with absolute certainty
That NOTHING is CERTAIN...

...except THAT? Maybe?

Cuz it seems (to me, more often than not)
That we must be truthful
To ourselves
Whoever we find
Ourselves to be.

I like to live in less LIES
and more truth
(WITH A LOWERCASE t)

[Spiral]

For me, the best model I've understood is the probability/quantum physics type of thing where absolutes don't seem possible to realize, and statistically closer to absolutes (relatively, ie this table/3d reality is "solid enough" to accept that "lie" for the purposes of all but this and a few other types of discussions) is more important to find (practical) truths than THE elusive Truth...which seemingly according your "logic" can't exist anyway

Good point, once you are trying to find "universal" truths, as in certainties, there just aren't any, no body even knows real basic fundamentals of existence like what matter or gravity are.

Please tell me you have small children & I haven't just responded to a guy who habitually draws with crayons :shocked:

[Shezbeth]

Don't misunderstand; I am not suggesting that everything is lies. I am suggesting that everything that is said is a lie. Everything is what it is, but the words that describe and refer to everything that is are inherently not everything that is. I could describe the cup of coffee I am sipping or even the experience/method of sipping, yet those descriptions are vastly less adequate than the actual coffee or the observable phenomenon I would be experience/describing.

P.S. What's wrong with drawing w/ crayons? :onthequite:

[norman]

My working principle with "truth" is that I don't really care what an ultimate truth might me. Well, I do, but it's not a workable hypothesis for actively perusing something that's behind all the screens that I instinctively know are being held up by entities with ill intent towards me and most people.

I'll call myself a truth seeker, for the sake of identity. But, in practical terms, all I'm really doing is conducting an investigation as best I know how.

I rely, again, on my instinct to know what a crime is and is not.

I tend to see this whole truther thing in the same light as a large scale police investigation. It doesn't help to get into relative existentialism when you're trying to collar a crook. I see my and 'our' current role as that of extracting as much evidence as possible from a crime scene and using it to track down the culprit(s).

I see this process as only a preliminary action to get us up and running on a much better truth seeking path. Once we've taken the biggest lies out of the situation, we will still have no idea what "the truth" is but we'll be in far better shape to find it.

[Hermit]

If you end up in skepticism, your theory is balderdash.

At least that's one way of looking at it.

But then here's another way of looking at it.

All truth is relative. Here's a story that demonstrates how dangerous that position really is.

A friend of mine went to a religious service in which the minister spoke about the relative truth of religious belief, namely that there is an essence in every belief that is grounded in some greater universal truth, and as such, every truth that every person expresses should be respected.

After the service, he went past the minister with the others in the congregation and shook hands as is the custom in many protestant denominations. He asked the minister to clarify, "So what I believe might not be the same as what you believe, but it should be respected as truth."

The minister agreed.

"Fine," says my friend. "I believe you're going to go to hell."

The minister chuckled and said, "I need to restate my point! Every belief is relative and true, except *your* belief."

So I ask you...how is that rational?

[norman]

Moral relativism, and it's cousin, "personal truths", are a phenomenon I regard with caution, even acute distrust.

What little I've read about relative values and the people who have historically espoused them, leave me almost calling for an exorcist. ;)

[Hermit]

Amen!

[norman]

Amen!

ok, here's the rub, for me.

Modern political correctness IS Moral relativism, ON STEROIDS !

Institutional relativism, Who'd a thunk it.

[BabaRa]

TRUTH, IMO, grows, changes and develops as consciousness grows, changes and develops.

Truth is the facts (or some may say lies) that are agreed upon at a given time. The world is flat and the center of the universe, etc.

Those individuals, societies and religions who see Truth as absolute, are those who are least willing to change and grow. The stronger we hold on to a Truth as we know it, the longer it will remain true, as we collectively hold it as an archetype. The ptb know this, which is why there is such strong programming to control truth - to keep us exactly where we are.

[donk]

Sometimes I let my kids use MY crayons

[JoeEcho]

Good point, once you are trying to find "universal" truths, as in certainties, there just aren't any, no body even knows real basic fundamentals of existence like what matter or gravity are.

Please tell me you have small children & I haven't just responded to a guy who habitually draws with crayons :shocked:

It is 'true' that there are no "universal"? truths but there IS the Truth.

Saying there are no "universal" truths infers that everything is "universally" false.

It is logically expected for one to say there is no Truth and there lies the rub.

[donk]

So are logical expectations truth? They rub ya?

[Altaira]

It is 'true' that there are no "universal"? truths but there IS the Truth.




There is a Truth. The only truth lies within and everything else is collective consciousnesses. The truth within cannot be changed, manipulated or twisted, it is universal and eternal. It can lead us trough everything and can overcomes any obstacle. It is our way home and our true guide.

Collective consciousnesses is a projection of our illusions which we as collective accept as truth. The acceptance itself makes the illusions so real and the more people say "this sounds true to me" the stronger the illusion becomes. One day it becomes a universal truth.
Just like we all think we are our bodies. How many people will argue that this is the universal truth? And how many also know that we are more than that body? Then there is another group of those who KNOW who they really are.
Truth can be hidden behind unmanageable concepts and philosophies in order to make it look incomprehensible object of arguments and long tirades.

In reality the truths is simple, it lies within and is available to everyone. It looks different because we have the tendency to look on the things through different perspective but it is the same at the end.
When you meditate and you reach your quietest place you feel the love so intense that you can't say it is something else you KNOW it is love. This is the universal truth and it is the same for every soul as far as my knowing spreads.

[Spiral]

If you end up in skepticism, your theory is balderdash.

At least that's one way of looking at it.

But then here's another way of looking at it.

All truth is relative. Here's a story that demonstrates how dangerous that position really is.

A friend of mine went to a religious service in which the minister spoke about the relative truth of religious belief, namely that there is an essence in every belief that is grounded in some greater universal truth, and as such, every truth that every person expresses should be respected.

After the service, he went past the minister with the others in the congregation and shook hands as is the custom in many protestant denominations. He asked the minister to clarify, "So what I believe might not be the same as what you believe, but it should be respected as truth."

The minister agreed.

"Fine," says my friend. "I believe you're going to go to hell."

The minister chuckled and said, "I need to restate my point! Every belief is relative and true, except *your* belief."

So I ask you...how is that rational?

The C of E ?

Its a purely cultural fabrication, they just make shiz up as they go along, you are no more likely to get rationality off them than you are likely to find broccoli for sale in an ironmongers.

I bet they are going to get put with the goats too :whstl:

[JoeEcho]

I found it interesting how they set the robot in "Interstellar" to 90% truthful, seen that yet?

90% truthful is a play on words/ symbols. 90% truthful = Lie, no matter how much one was to profess something like.... "but it is 'mostly' truthful and that is good enough for me".

The fly/ speck in the ointment seems so trivial at first glance but that is its deception/ mind trick.

[JoeEcho]

So are logical expectations truth? They rub ya?

Pleeeeese, obviously not.

Logic is not the end all, be all.

Truth is not logical. However, what many people refer to as 'truths' (which are lies in contrast) can be viewed through the logical eye and used for practical purposes.

[dianna]

http://youtu.be/OQm3FjLo-mk

[JoeEcho]

"Truth is a Pathless Land" J. Krishnamurti

This could also be restated as:

Truth is a landless Land.

[donk]

So what exactly are YOU transmitting with the lies you are choosing to post, pray tell joe?

[Hermit]

ok, here's the rub, for me.

Modern political correctness IS Moral relativism, ON STEROIDS !

Institutional relativism, Who'd a thunk it.

DOUBLE Amen!!!

[JoeEcho]

So what exactly are YOU transmitting with the lies you are choosing to post, pray tell joe?

That's right, no different than you. Remember that.

[donk]

Remember what?

[JoeEcho]

Playing coy, I see.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs39/i/2008/341/7/1/Coy_Pond_by_xena111returns.jpg


https://d22d7v2y1t140g.cloudfront.net/m_3734714_Coy1LKATQYi5.jpg

[donk]

I can’t stop you from projecting on to me whatever it is you are doing, and I can’t get you to (nor am I interested in having you) believe me…but I think the it’s “all lies” game, while “true”, at it’s core…while cute and clever (especially more with memes and puns) is tiresome…and possibly a trap.

If mind control exists, which I believe it does…what would be the method for enslaving those of us aware the basic techniques (most obviously in teevee/mass media, religion, the civilization program, etc)? My guess is the (what I see as) ‘covert solipsism’ that has been creeping into nearly every “intellectual” discussion I’ve been involved in…the lie that there is no “truth” worth bothering, the meme that if it ain’t a universal, logically describable, scientifically repeatable…it ain’t worth knowing. That you can’t know anything, and that everything is a lie.

You’re right. Everything is a lie—to you. That doesn’t mean it ain’t worth figuring out which ones we tell ourselves are practical toward self empowerment…if you’re into that kind of thing. I hope your lie-filled reality works out for you--been there, done that....later brah.

[Agape]

Don't worry about it Donk ... we all suffer .. besides all we have already suffered from as a civilisation now we suffer more :o, from this chronic internet disease .. the disillusion game .. the emptiness swallowing the reality ,
this modern sanatorium of human civilisation is free of cost , this graveyard of civilisation .. it's a terminal disease in many cases.

Let me explain to those who do not get it ( they won't get it after either , without adding some medicines from their precious laughing bag ..) :

for example .. it's the Valentines Day after tomorrow ...and what you really want is someone love you so really , to give you real hug , and bring those real flowers and box of chocolates and have a real good talk from heart .

What some of our patients really get ( including the medical staff ) is 'online condolences' and commends and pictures of kittens and wise words ( like every year ) about how we ''really love'' each other .
And dare you say it's not real .


Do not give up on truth, on reality, on what you know can heal the world - for REAL - because many people i know of gave up on the idea long ago or perhaps never had one so now they are waiting for when it all ends ( for them ) because that's the way they see it happen .


We all are inclined to it : depression, disillusion, stomach sickness from all the lies ..it can get real bad .. but it's a vague , shapeless , greyish monster , one that needs to be fought with great gusto .


:garden::cloud: Get some cherries in chocolate and tell the shop keeper it's on prescription medication. :garden:

[JoeEcho]

http://www.pics22.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/why-so-serious.jpg

http://funny-pix.co/wp-content/uploads/why-so-serious-meme.jpg

http://readerandriddle.com/images/frankie2.jpg

What ever works, work it (or don't).

[Chickadee]

Your words ARE words written and that IS the truth


Oh lord guys!!! I can't even begin to explain how true this very topic runs rampaged in "life" right now..

Take this for instance -

I couldn't even be respectful enough to quiet my thoughts and read this entire thread before I answer and put my two cents in.. Ugh- stupid ego..
If I was any sort of "enlightened" being--- which I'm not, because well, I'm speaking out of turn (well typing)..

The truth...
So what truth is truth?
The whole illuminati? They are out to get us? We are doomed?
((Sigh))
I'm not dissing anybody..
I just want to make a point, (because my ego is screaming.. Not my forum life ego))
There is no truth to truth if it is not believed.
"The truth" needs to believed my somebody, otherwise- how is there even a truth.

The whole,"I'm just telling the truth".. Ugh, that's old-
It's all perception, right?! (Yup- been discussed zillions of times)

So, we can tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth-
But what my words said mean those different by someone else. It's all really exhausting and daunting - especially when somebody doesn't even listen to what truth (no matter what that truth may be) because they have absolutely zero interest in what you have to say--
Because they (I mean we.. I mean he, oh she ... Lol) are too busy listening to their own thoughts, words-- their egos;
To even give a damn about the other end who is listening---
Oh gawd... (Here goes a truth-- or an ego..:) )
Actually- I'll stop myself..

So- anyways,
We can love, we can cherish-
We can talk
We can scream
We can ignore
We can listen..

Oh what about truth,
The truth is---

Integrity..

It seems as though integrity has been lost in "enlightenment"

Because- if we don't stand up for what we believe in...
And don't admit when we're wrong..
If we're all just lost in our words- spoken, written or typed..
Where are we?
(I'm not directing this to any of you guys-)

I'm frustrated, but I'll be fine.
I'll be humble, I'll admit, I'll realize-
I'll even be stubborn,
But I won't be hurtful,
I mean no one harm.

You'll only be hurt if you allow yourself, right?
Isn't hurt a feeling?

But-- so what exactly is truth?

I'll tell you what it is...
It's a word. Simply that- nothing more,

Until we (I mean the world as whole) all gain some integrity ...
There is no such thing as "truth"


:flag:

Ok-
I'll go read the rest of this mighty thread. Sorry for interrupting.

:sun:

[Chickadee]

http://jandeane81.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=912&d=1423588832

I scribbled this "response" as soon as I posted the last one...the pic didn't come out so good for people with eyes as crappy as mine...the text reads:

Listen: Friend,
and I'll tell you some
TRUTH so long
as you know
that I KNOW
It's nothing but LIES

I AM
or: at least,
I seem to BE...

Well, maybe NOT?
But I can say
with absolute certainty
That NOTHING is CERTAIN...

...except THAT? Maybe?

Cuz it seems (to me, more often than not)
That we must be truthful
To ourselves
Whoever we find
Ourselves to be.

I like to live in less LIES
and more truth
(WITH A LOWERCASE t)

I love it !! Looks like something I would have conjured up in the past ;)

Wax crayons rock!!

[Cearna]

I wish to propound my own sense of what is :-

You and I came into life, so we have one real Truth.

There is no such Truth to everyone, as there is no such thing as everyone, because all of a bag tricks, came in with each one of us, so we are "each one" of us.

No one ever walks to same Path as someone else, so we each bed down in reach of our individual selves, so only I can call my Truth, my own Truth.

We can have roles of gentle folk and so many of us like to think we are that, and so many others want to stop life in me for being gentle - does this make Hell Gates real, it might to some clergy, to whom it is very important, not to me as I never want to be a clergy. Is this whose Truth we expect to live by - some still do, not me, so I still want to be gentle, and someone else still wants to kill me because of that.

So guess who still likes to believe in Truth, because all I want to do is to be true to myself, this is my words, my Truth - so many others feel the same about themselves, that is their Truth. How will I be true to myself, by seeing if what I want to be, stacks up to be what I am being - simple life, because all I am is simple - me. To me that is all there is to my simple life in Truth.

Someone else wants to be intellectually complete by saying the same things, in demonstrably elitism language, then in their Truth, my needing to be simple, is stupid and worth nothing, so my Truth's do not make any reasonable sense to them. Their Truth's then are more important than mine. Do I live by their Truth's, no. Do they live by mine - no. Is one more than the other, in Truth, not to me, but might be to them.

These are individual Truths - where do National, global, Universal Truths gain their Truth's from - from minds here now, except the Universal Truths you are not to know, till we find out what they are. Are there Universal Truths? Well Ivan (my Higher Self and mentor) wants to one day tell me the ones he sees as being important to my own set of Truths.

the first thing is - don't tell yourself Truth does not exist, for you immediately list to yourself, that you will never find any Truth
don't tell good and evil, are simply there to tell us what they are, for we fill in our somewhat storyland version of what good and evil are to ourselves which precludes the infinite shades of each and the in between. We then go about looking to seek and find and specific needs of the in between and call them Truth.

There is solid proof in some one's mind but we have the right to go find our own.

[Shezbeth]

I hope it is not my words that are being twisted by reference of "Everything is a lie". I have very clearly indicated that this is not my position, and any further laboring under that impression is entirely delusional.

[JoeEcho]

I Lied. :)

When attempting to describe/ demonstrate the Truth, even indirectly, one invariably ends up describing the finger pointing to 'it'.

http://media.salon.com/2012/06/whoops_rect1.jpg

http://thefoodielife.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/silly-me.jpeg

http://dobrador.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/541226_485362984819054_355199502_n.jpg

[The One]

lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

[JoeEcho]

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24331000/ngbbs50a5c81586bcb.jpg

[The One]

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/24331000/ngbbs50a5c81586bcb.jpg

So glad you have taken your own advice

cheers

[JoeEcho]

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000552745/polls_cat_20butt_4432_94667_poll_xlarge.jpeg

[norman]

Hey, Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe Joe............................


WTF..............

:getcoat:

[Shezbeth]

lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

I'm so using this,....

[JoeEcho]

http://memecrunch.com/meme/D6K6/banter/image.jpg

[Agape]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/Aikatwo/cute-marshmallow.jpeg (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/Aikatwo/media/cute-marshmallow.jpeg.html)

I have an idea . Or two :garden:

[Aianawa]

Truth is often spoken of like it is known in absolute terms. But each speaks of it from their view point not considering that it is just that and not the thing itself.

Is speaking the truth..... The Truth?

If I speak for you, am I you?

The Truth stands alone unimpeded by words, thoughts, ideas, or art concerning it.

So what should we make of things spoken of in an authoritative way as if their origin is rooted in the Truth (as if they are one with the Truth)?


My words are words written but they are not the Truth. At best, they are but an echo of the Truth, which again....is not the Truth.


http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/8c40444692.jpg

This part >
The Truth stands alone unimpeded by words, thoughts, ideas, or art concerning it. < yours and also my truth do not do this Aragorn.

[Aragorn]

This part >
The Truth stands alone unimpeded by words, thoughts, ideas, or art concerning it. < yours and also my truth do not do this Aragorn.

You'd be wrong about that, Vern. ;)

[Aianawa]

Feel we can both be wrong an impeded, why do you feel your truth is unimpeded ?.

[Aragorn]

Feel we can both be wrong an impeded, why do you feel your truth is unimpeded ?.

As JoeEcho said, and as I myself have also already told you a couple of dozen times by now, Vern, there is no such thing as your truth and my truth. There is only the truth. Understanding this and incorporating it into your outlook on life is crucial in helping you understand why you've been following all the wrong leads so far.

Wanting something to be true does not make it true. And in this day and age, those who shout the loudest and make the most noise about "their truth" — read: the alt-right and the anti-science mob, inasmuch as there's any difference between them — are the ones who do not own the truth, but who simply seek to recruit the innocent bystander into joining their ranks. As I told you, it's not about the truth for them, but about winning, and therefore, about getting their agendas pushed. Sore losers do that, and people who reject factual evidence and replace it with fake evidence, walls of text and loud voices, are sore losers.

There's an old Japanese proverb that says something along the lines of "If you have to raise your voice, then you've already lost the debate." The sources whence you get your information are the ones shouting the most and the loudest, Vern. They always have been. And do you know why? It's because they know they can't beat the facts, and so they're trying to drown out the truth and replace it with their lies.

Allow me to give you an example, and in this example, I am going to talk about the "autism and vaccines" myth. Not that I want to drag this thread off-topic and onto that debate, because I don't even want to have to ever have that debate anymore, because — as I have explained to you in this post (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/14137-Pointless?p=842048483&viewfull=1#post842048483) on the other thread — the drowning-out by the shouting mob has worked, and I for one have thus for years already been feeling completely discouraged in trying to insert a signal into that noise. No, I am merely going to address this issue so as to show you the mechanism of how a disinformation campaign works.




1. British physician Andrew Wakefield is contacted by a law firm with the assignment of doing research into the safety of vaccines, regarding a damage claim by said law firm against a pharmaceutical company. He starts doing research — including on involuntary subjects, without their consent or permission — and creates a falsified report which claims that vaccines cause autism. The falsification of the research is discovered by the medical board, and this, together with Wakefield's unethical research against involuntary subjects, causes him to get stricken from the register as a certified physician, and he is convicted for fraud.

2. Wakefield becomes an instant hero among the anti-vaxx crowd — and especially so in the Anglo-Saxon countries — who see him as a martyr, and who've already got loads of prejudices and paranoia of their own about vaccines, based upon their non-understanding of medical science, biology, genetics, etc. His report, although falsified, gives rise to the phenomenon called "autism moms", i.e. an early iteration of the "Karen" phenomenon, comprising vocal mothers of autistic children who claim that their child was not autistic before it received the MMR (measels, mumps and rubella) vaccine, because "their mother's instinct told them so". (I myself have in debates with anti-vaxxers literally been given that argument as "evidence", i.e. that "their mother's instinct told them so.")

3. Other anti-vaxx researchers pick up on that, and they point at Thiomersal, a mercury-based additive in the MMR vaccine, added to allow the vaccine a longer shelf life.

4. Meanwhile, real autism research continues, and it is discovered that autism is not a disease, but a neurological difference. Autistic individuals are not brain-damaged, but instead, their brains are wired differently, and have literally a multitude of the amounts of neurons and synapses found in the so-called neurotypical brain. Furthermore, it is discovered that this neurological difference is genetic, and a number of genes is identified in having contributed to the development of the autistic neurology. And on top of that, behavioral research on cats shows that all cats are in fact what humans call "autistic".

5. As a safety precaution, in the 1980s, governments all over the world ban the use of Thiomersal and any other mercury-based preservative in vaccines. The measure does not have any effect on the increase in the number of children becoming diagnosed with autism. But still, the anti-vaxxers refuse to accept this, and they are now claiming — without any evidence whatsoever — that the vaccine somehow still contains mercury, or even Thiomersal itself. The campaign receives the support from Hollywood celebrities like Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy, as well as a couple of so-called and quite dubious not-for-profit organizations, and gains substantial traction, especially on social media — particularly so on Facebook.

6. More autism research and genetic research is conducted, and on top of the dozen-or-so already identified genes involved with an autism spectrum neurology, now over one hundred genes are identified as involved with autism spectrum conditions, with the expectation that this number may actually double in the future as more genetic research is conducted. Furthermore, research in the other direction is also conducted — i.e. in support of the claim that autism would be caused by vaccines — and this research in turn concludes that the claim is, indeed, false.

7. Andrew Wakefield decides to strike back on account of the fact that his falsified research got him barred as a physician and ruined his reputation, and he releases a documentary — directed by himself, although this detail is intentionally not highlighted very clearly, so as to make the documentary appear more neutral — called "VAXXED", full of pseudoscience, false testimonies and all kinds of speculation. The anti-vaxx crowd is elated and once again lauds Wakefield as a martyr and a hero, even going so far as to claim that he was exonerated as a physician, which he was not — he remains to this very day barred from ever practising medicine or medical research again.

8. The anti-vaxxers continue their campaign, lauding Wakefield and his disinformation/propaganda documentary, and they refuse to hear the medical facts, rapidly (and rabidly) spreading themselves out across all social media. As such, those people who know and understand the facts are simply losing all courage in trying to counter that misinformation.



Once again, the above is only an illustration of the mechanics behind this sort of disinformation campaigns; I am really not looking to get into any "autism vs. vaccines" debate with anyone — I won't even allow anyone to draw me into that debate again. My point is that it's not about the truth, but about shouting the loudest and the longest, and of psychologically wearing out your opponent. And then you can claim your victory — a dishonorable victory based upon lies, but a victory nevertheless.

And it doesn't matter whether it's about autism, or about Joe Biden having legitimately been elected as president of the United States, or about the fact that Pizzagate™ is one big lie, or about how the Q phenomenon was merely a role-playing game whose sole intent was to get Donald Trump re-elected for a second term, or whatever else there is.

Just think of Hunter Biden's laptop. I don't know whether he's corrupt or not — it is possible that he is — and he's obviously a crackhead too, but that's still a long way from being a pedophile. All of the footage and photos depicting him as having sex with underage girls are ostensibly fake. If one has the truth by one's side, then why would one need to fabricate lies?

The tactic is the same all over, Vern, and that's because it's an anti-truth tactic, a propaganda tactic. And once again, it was Joseph Goebbels, as Hitler's Minister of Propaganda, who said that if you repeat the lie long enough, it'll eventually become accepted as the truth.

And that, dear Vern, is what the alt-right is all about. It's about running the other side over and declaring themselves to be the winners. They don't care that they have to sacrifice the truth on their altar in order to get there. The winner controls society, period.

[Aianawa]

Loaded post alert, shivers Aragorn let us start again, i am or identify as rite in the middle and my truth preveils here as it is uninpdeded till it goes outside of me as such.

Being in the middle is important as knowing your own mind matters, propaganda for whomever is obvious, knowing your own mind will not give propaganda a chance to seep in, we stand a clear n murky distance between each other that need not be.

At our shire table seated, i sense your compliance to be correct and especialllly with me at any cost except the p[otential that being incorrect in the future may cause you harm and that was energy imo not there just a short time ago, that is progress in my book.

For some unknown reason to me, i drink a can of coke each year, a feeling comes over me and i eventualllly let it go and feel into then buy a can or bottle of coke to which i drink, no idea of this except maybe clearing with this sugar water for humaity, have gone years without a alcoholic drink and then had 7 or eight in a year, never more than one at once and considering i was once a drinking really really to now rarely rarely, knowing the root of ones own lies and truama assists one to move past knowing ones own mind to being able to also read the energy field about one and this can also be applied to online, shire even.

brb

[Aianawa]

2020 2 2022 verified already known conclusions except controllers world wide were far more putrid and corrupt than first known. Often still i will trust someone but if their mind is not known, your trust is in their downloader not them, good person or not, so continualllly i was betrayed knowingly and unknowingly by these mind unknown people, easy to turn ones cheek because you know and choose if or when to stand up for the persom mind unknown till they evolve or need factual life data n or calm etc assistance, that is freindship and emotional and mental ownerboat imo.

Many here would save someone and turn and go back into that burning house for known alive ones still, tisa who we are, we know the potentials and possible results and this is where we are at in the many many shifts happening atm.

Fiat monies to fiat crypts is playing out eggyzackly as expected by people who know their mind, not too much intelligence needed to follow this atm, just like i am loving ushering the amazing real potential world in which we live now and soon.

Everything we do energeticalllly affects the whole, simple yes ?. So what are we doing regards our differences Aragorn ?, for me anyway it is to communicate, blue chickens got me and to add, i saw a blue massive shining orb in the sky when soon after arriving in Shire, while blue was still a member here, it was real and i could not deny that this and i did connect it to blue at that time, my physical and emotional plus mental and spiritual experience gave credence to mr blue, we learn, i still enjoy and learn from DW, especialllly his latest emotional shares lol and yip i am in the middle still.

brb

[Aragorn]

Fiat monies to fiat crypts is playing out eggyzackly as expected by people who know their mind, not too much intelligence needed to follow this atm, just like i am loving ushering the amazing real potential world in which we live now and soon.

If you want my advice, stay as far away from cryptocurrencies as you can, Vern. It's a very treacherous bubble, intended to take the control of money out of the hands of the banks — which has failed, because banks are now also speculating in that market — and put it in the hands of the tech industry and the organized crime groups. It's a bubble, it's covered by nothing tangible, it stimulates greed, and it's going to burst sooner or later.


Everything we do energeticalllly affects the whole, simple yes ?. So what are we doing regards our differences Aragorn ?

I don't like fighting, Vern, and I also don't like having to repeat myself over and over. I had the feeling — and the other staff members as well — that there was just no getting through to you.

And by the way, I don't like politics either. I've seen it from the inside, and to me, it's all just a vile game, and whoever wins, we're the ones who end up screwed anyway. That's one of the reasons why you won't see me looking at political threads very often.

[Aianawa]

If you want my advice, stay as far away from cryptocurrencies as you can, Vern. It's a very treacherous bubble, intended to take the control of money out of the hands of the banks — which has failed, because banks are now also speculating in that market — and put it in the hands of the tech industry and the organized crime groups. It's a bubble, it's covered by nothing tangible, it stimulates greed, and it's going to burst sooner or later.



I don't like fighting, Vern, and I also don't like having to repeat myself over and over. I had the feeling — and the other staff members as well — that there was just no getting through to you.

And by the way, I don't like politics either. I've seen it from the inside, and to me, it's all just a vile game, and whoever wins, we're the ones who end up screwed anyway. That's one of the reasons why you won't see me looking at political threads very often.

We TOTally agree on crypto then unless a backing of physical gold silver or commodities etc and many of us watched as the main original cripto players got incorparated, pushed or suicided, as i am sure all the different coloured hats did too, watching Russia with it's allies peg their currentcy to gold was classic and well organised imo years before, most rising and stable currentcy atm in this crazy world, even with sanctions.
Usualllly i am defending myself not fighting, a difference imo, we are humans and why you and other staff members would need to get their truth through to me defaults the forum imo but i am prepared to do my best to get along while we all go through great changes, our minds, included. So a profound sorry for being incorrect in my thoughts and shares now and in the past and i accept yours also, such is our fast changing world today.
Politics is ugly and needs huge systemic change world wide and this will happen, is happening atm.

Is rare for me to get angry or triggered when my truth is abused because it caused hurt to another whom was triggered, why does someone get triggered by another truth not theirs ?, to give an eggysample Aragorn, my dad got the vaxx based on his doctors advice ( heart probs known and he is dying, few years left all going well ) promptly had a heart attack-s and into emergency then up to CHCH emergency, absolute refusel to connect the two, all good as is dads choice, couple moons ago gets another as it will help him and he needs to do as government says though doctor not saying much this time, boom brain bleed and emergency room again, he must have hit his head he keeps repeating, must have been a bad concussion he says ( mum has clicked though now though still backs dad completly, all good, their choice.
We will talk and love each other till death, same with you dear Frank, same with you.

[Aianawa]

The truth is not vulnerable but can feel so.

Science once said their is only infinate truths.

[Dreamtimer]

"Science once said..." That's a funny phrase. Science is not an entity which speaks. Scientists will regularly say that nothing is 'settled'. Because there is always more to discover and understand. A theory may be well founded and it's still a theory which undergoes continual development.

Much like people. (hopefully) They grow and develop throughout life. (again, hopefully)

Do you own a truth, Vern? Is that why it's 'yours'? I've believed many things sincerely and deeply. That doesn't make them absolute. I could have been wrong or misunderstood. These things happen which is why dialogue and understanding are so important.

If a person just thinks they have 'their truth' they could end up being sorely mis- or uninformed. I've seen that occur more than once.

[Catsquotl]

Now I am confused.
Doesn't science say that there is no truth, Well none that can scientifically be proven?

There are only hypotheses that haven't been disproven yet?

[Aragorn]

Now I am confused.
Doesn't science say that there is no truth, Well none that can scientifically be proven?

There are only hypotheses that haven't been disproven yet?

No. There are things that have proven to be true, and of which we know that they are true because we can (and do) rely on them 100% every single day. But at the same time, there are also hypotheses, some of which are believed to be true because there is no evidence to the contrary, even though there is also no absolute evidence to corroborate the hypotheses — this is the realm of axioms. And then there are yet other hypotheses of which it is unknown whether they are true or false, but which exist nevertheless because they can be spelled out as mathematical formulas that work with other mathematical formulas.

So there's a bit of everything in science, but there is definitely a given amount of established truth among that, and scientists will never deny this.

[Emil El Zapato]

logic can easily construct a 'true' statement or a 'false' statement, it's axiomatic, but then there must be a buy-in to consensus reality. By far, not axiomatic in the quantum age. That truth makes me laugh with maniacal glee.

[Aianawa]

"Science once said..." That's a funny phrase. Science is not an entity which speaks. Scientists will regularly say that nothing is 'settled'. Because there is always more to discover and understand. A theory may be well founded and it's still a theory which undergoes continual development.

Much like people. (hopefully) They grow and develop throughout life. (again, hopefully)

Do you own a truth, Vern? Is that why it's 'yours'? I've believed many things sincerely and deeply. That doesn't make them absolute. I could have been wrong or misunderstood. These things happen which is why dialogue and understanding are so important.

If a person just thinks they have 'their truth' they could end up being sorely mis- or uninformed. I've seen that occur more than once.

As Aragorn has said, you answered your own question regards, always more to discover = infinate.
Yes indeed i own a truth, all outside of now is truth not known yet.

[Aianawa]

No. There are things that have proven to be true, and of which we know that they are true because we can (and do) rely on them 100% every single day. But at the same time, there are also hypotheses, some of which are believed to be true because there is no evidence to the contrary, even though there is also no absolute evidence to corroborate the hypotheses — this is the realm of axioms. And then there are yet other hypotheses of which it is unknown whether they are true or false, but which exist nevertheless because they can be spelled out as mathematical formulas that work with other mathematical formulas.

So there's a bit of everything in science, but there is definitely a given amount of established truth among that, and scientists will never deny this.

Indeed and interesting and changable imo Aragorn, no-one can see the reflection in the mirror, what am i, clue be a not red planet.

Also nowadays less scientests are shying away, well better said, more are embracing elements of woo woo.


logic can easily construct a 'true' statement or a 'false' statement, it's axiomatic, but then there must be a buy-in to consensus reality. By far, not axiomatic in the quantum age. That truth makes me laugh with maniacal glee.

Take me new truth saying > all outside of now is truth not known yet. < now we into nows, your nows n others nows.

[Wind]

Science should be a method and inquiry into objective truth and it can be. There is an attempt at that, but it does fall short at times, yet it doesn't mean that all mainstream would be corrupt. Scientists are still human and they are fallible, corruptible and so forth. The systems can be corrupted, but true science is supposed to always evolve and upgrade itself with new information so it won't just become a dogmatic worldview too, like materialism is. Some things we do know for sure, like that the Earth is round and also the laws of gravity and such. Then there is also "settled" science like climate science. Except it's just a theory which is being sold to us for monetary purposes.

[Fred Steeves]

Science should be a method and inquiry into objective truth and it can be. There is an attempt at that, but it does fall short at times, yet it doesn't mean that all mainstream would be corrupt. Scientists are still human and they are fallible, corruptible and so forth. The systems can be corrupted, but true science is supposed to always evolve and upgrade itself with new information so it won't just become a dogmatic worldview too, like materialism is.

That's a great description. I think part of the problem surrounding the word "science" is most of us have fallen into seeing it as being outside of ourselves. Science is almost synonymous with "research", and it's not just those in the ivory towers that can do it, although they can usually do it at a much higher level because of higher education, and the means to do it with.

I think posting content on forums in general would be at a much higher level if more posters thought of their own material in more scientific/research terms. Testing it's validity before putting it out there.

Here's a rather crude example of what I'm getting at: living out in the woods, one of the ongoing chores is to keep mice out of the house, we let it get away from us at first and it turned into a god damn infestation. So we invested in some live traps and baited them in three strategic locations. That got rid of the infestation real quick, and now it's just a matter of daily maintenance by checking them.

To the point: after some time of them being totally gone, suddenly 3 or 4 were trapped in quick succession. Then some more time passed and it happened again, 3 or 4 were trapped in quick succession. That got us to thinking "hmmm, we don't catch them at a steady here and there, one by one, we're getting them in groups, I wonder if it's whole families that come in all at once?"

Some more time passed, and it just happened again recently, 3 were trapped in succession. That's a pattern now, it's been observed 3 times, and it's now looking rather likely that they're coming in as families indeed. But had I just posted in "The Mouse Thread" after the first catch that they're coming inside in families, I wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about because it's only been observed as happening one time LOL!

But now after observing the exact same thing 3 times in a row, it really is looking like "The Family Theory" might just be accurate. I really do think it is now, but then again I could still be wrong, because for all I know it's not families at all, maybe every now and then the whole mouse population explodes, and any random number of them are going to get inside. Or maybe they have certain unknown migratory patterns, and the same thing a certain random amount are bound to get in as they come through.

As for right now I'm placing my bets on "The Family Theory", that the mouse population is fairly static, and that every now and then a family comes across us and wants the shelter, but I still don't know for sure and my eyes are now set further out to try and notice any patterns that may challenge my theory.



In the same vein, when we come across some new information out their, it's totally fine to take it on board and say "hmmm, that's interesting"; it may be true, it may not be true, but it's important to not get so attached to its validity that we discount any other information that may show otherwise. It's low brow science, but it's science none the less, if we're not looking to constantly improve, refine, or even toss out things we think to be true, then all we're doing is just taking shit onboard and spitting it back out there.

Science is about what is true, not what we want to be true.

[Wind]

Science is about what is true, not what we want to be true.

Exactly.

[Dreamtimer]

...living out in the woods, one of the ongoing chores is to keep mice out of the house...

Oh, the mice. As we don't have a cat right now, I have to keep the traps baited regularly. And they get used. The mice seem to be able to squeeze through a pin hole.

I see the same patterns you've described but with some more details. I've observed that one or two get in, give birth and the numbers increase. Often, when trapped, two will be full adults and the rest smaller and younger. They come in and reproduce. At least that's the pattern here. I'm just one house.

The locations where they get trapped can vary. Sometimes they've figured out to climb up behind the stove. Sometimes they've figured out where the dog food bowl is. Sometimes it's another attractor. But I trap all places where I've observed/trapped before. Different groups hit different spots.

I generally don't kill creatures that come inside. I even rescued a wolf spider last month after returning from Scotland. But the mice get trapped. I've had too much damage and other bad nuisance from them, including chewing up the wires in a washing machine.

Mice, fleas, and ticks get 'the axe'.

[Dreamtimer]

I think, Aianawa, that your assertions about truth revolve around both its subjectivity, and the idea that we create our own truth and our own reality. But you're not just talking about your own personal reality, you're talking about holding to a truth so that it will manifest and actually become the larger reality. And the various energetic observations that you share or make are a part of the different energy that you want to manifest in the world right now.

So you hold to your truths as yours because that is what you are trying to bring into the world. I will admit that your truths often seem to be at cross purposes. But no other person can be inside your head. As your language is quite cryptic, it leaves much to be guessed.

I do hope, ultimately, that you hope for the best for all. However, your very grave accusations cause me to believe that that may not be the case. I can't imagine throwing around pedo accusations the way that you do. Those words could actually cause such things to manifest when repeated over and over. And that doesn't mean you were 'right' if you're evoking it. That's just injecting bad energy into the world.

And so I like to see when you offer positive words and hopes.

And I hope they're true.

[Aianawa]

That's a great description. I think part of the problem surrounding the word "science" is most of us have fallen into seeing it as being outside of ourselves. Science is almost synonymous with "research", and it's not just those in the ivory towers that can do it, although they can usually do it at a much higher level because of higher education, and the means to do it with.

I think posting content on forums in general would be at a much higher level if more posters thought of their own material in more scientific/research terms. Testing it's validity before putting it out there.

Here's a rather crude example of what I'm getting at: living out in the woods, one of the ongoing chores is to keep mice out of the house, we let it get away from us at first and it turned into a god damn infestation. So we invested in some live traps and baited them in three strategic locations. That got rid of the infestation real quick, and now it's just a matter of daily maintenance by checking them.

To the point: after some time of them being totally gone, suddenly 3 or 4 were trapped in quick succession. Then some more time passed and it happened again, 3 or 4 were trapped in quick succession. That got us to thinking "hmmm, we don't catch them at a steady here and there, one by one, we're getting them in groups, I wonder if it's whole families that come in all at once?"

Some more time passed, and it just happened again recently, 3 were trapped in succession. That's a pattern now, it's been observed 3 times, and it's now looking rather likely that they're coming in as families indeed. But had I just posted in "The Mouse Thread" after the first catch that they're coming inside in families, I wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about because it's only been observed as happening one time LOL!

But now after observing the exact same thing 3 times in a row, it really is looking like "The Family Theory" might just be accurate. I really do think it is now, but then again I could still be wrong, because for all I know it's not families at all, maybe every now and then the whole mouse population explodes, and any random number of them are going to get inside. Or maybe they have certain unknown migratory patterns, and the same thing a certain random amount are bound to get in as they come through.

As for right now I'm placing my bets on "The Family Theory", that the mouse population is fairly static, and that every now and then a family comes across us and wants the shelter, but I still don't know for sure and my eyes are now set further out to try and notice any patterns that may challenge my theory.



In the same vein, when we come across some new information out their, it's totally fine to take it on board and say "hmmm, that's interesting"; it may be true, it may not be true, but it's important to not get so attached to its validity that we discount any other information that may show otherwise. It's low brow science, but it's science none the less, if we're not looking to constantly improve, refine, or even toss out things we think to be true, then all we're doing is just taking shit onboard and spitting it back out there.

Science is about what is true, not what we want to be true.

Enjoyable post ta Wind, two autums ago i went through the she'll be rite attitude only to have as you say FN infestation, live trapped as well and lo n behold in me wee house last week, one little field mouse, shit why so cute ?.
Oh yeah, mouse families usualllly a few babies, unlikely 1 or two but the trapping may scare others off.

[Dreamtimer]

Once, years ago, when I trapped the adults a baby mouse toddled out onto the kitchen floor squeaking for its parents. It had huge round ears and was the cutest thing I'd laid eyes on. It was kinda heartbreaking to watch it. It had no fear of me yet.

[Emil El Zapato]

Once, years ago, when I trapped the adults a baby mouse toddled out onto the kitchen floor squeaking for its parents. It had huge round ears and was the cutest thing I'd laid eyes on. It was kinda heartbreaking to watch it. It had no fear of me yet.

that is sad, but did the parent get squashed anyway?

[Dreamtimer]

The parents had met their fate which is why the baby came squeaking for them.

Truly adorable and heartbreaking. I couldn't just kill it or leave it to starve so I took it outside, put it under some plants and let nature take its course.

[Aianawa]

Once, years ago, when I trapped the adults a baby mouse toddled out onto the kitchen floor squeaking for its parents. It had huge round ears and was the cutest thing I'd laid eyes on. It was kinda heartbreaking to watch it. It had no fear of me yet.

Left a crust on the bench last nite, this morn while having breakfast the fastest mouse in the world went from one side of house to other, split second, amazing, did not take too long before dammit, it did it again, incredible speed, yeah yeah i know, there be FN two now.

[Aragorn]

Left a crust on the bench last nite, this morn while having breakfast the fastest mouse in the world went from one side of house to other, split second, amazing, did not take too long before dammit, it did it again, incredible speed, yeah yeah i know, there be FN two now.

The fastest mouse in the world? You mean, the real-life Speedy Gonzalez? :D



http://celebnmovies247.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/speedy-gonzales-2.jpg

[Emil El Zapato]

The fastest mouse in the world? You mean, the real-life Speedy Gonzalez? :D


Arriba!, Arriba! Andale!

[Aianawa]

Set death traps today, 5 mice so far.

Exploring the truth and nows for myself atm and expanding outside of myself as a natural course, is the feeling.

[Fred Steeves]

Once, years ago, when I trapped the adults a baby mouse toddled out onto the kitchen floor squeaking for its parents. It had huge round ears and was the cutest thing I'd laid eyes on. It was kinda heartbreaking to watch it. It had no fear of me yet.

Okay, since I've caused this thread to take a mousey kind of a turn, here's Paul Harvey's "rest of the story": I hate the traditional traps. Every morning I both hoped we had one, but dreaded starting a day off seeing the carnage, and sometimes it didn't even kill them. The trap out in the well shed was the main culprit for some reason.

One mouse just had a rear leg crushed and trapped, all the poor little bugger could do was look at me when I walked in to check. "Damnit! I can't just leave you that way, shit I hate doing this! Just like when the dog maims a squirrel or chip monk, but doesn't kill it, gotta go get the trusty old cinder block and smush you flat with one fatal blow to finish the job. Here we go..."

Even got a baby bird who had just learned to fly in that one, it had flown in there for a look around because the door had been open, and saw a "free" dab of peanut butter sitting there waiting for him, only it wasn't his lucky day. I Walked in, and the trap wasn't even on the top shelf where it sets. "Where is it? Oh, there it is on the ground, and is that a bird in it?"

The mechanism had come down right smack dab over the middle of one of its scrawny little legs, and not only broken it in two, but had taken him for a tumble down to the ground in the process because the whole trap had fallen over the edge of the shelf in the ensuing melee. And it was still alive after all that. Time for the cinder block again, "this carnage has got to stop!"

So Mrs. Steeves of course felt terrible as well, went snooping around online, and found this (https://www.amazon.com/Humane-Catch-Release-Indoor-Outdoor/dp/B08RN4QFK1/ref=asc_df_B08RN4QFK1/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=507834747797&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7815946946211797154&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=21143&hvtargid=pla-1279994220691&psc=1).

They work great! What a great idea! Now there's no more dread what's to be found in the morning. If we have one, just take him for a little ride a mile or two down the road, let him go at the edge of a different patch of woods, and he has a new lease on life no harm no foul, you were just being a mouse. Sure it's breaking the family unit up lol, but it beats the alternative.

And now you know, the rest of the story.

[Dreamtimer]

I have used, and still have catch and release traps. I have had mixed results with them. One mouse managed to chew it's way out of a chew-proof trap. The mice seem to avoid them. I've put them in known traffic areas and gotten nothing.

So I use a mix. I have both catch and release and spring traps.

[Aianawa]

Three blind mice is the strangest thoughts shared way back in time, metaphoric ?.

[Emil El Zapato]

Three blind mice is the strangest thoughts shared way back in time, metaphoric ?.

Five dead mice...

[Aianawa]

BNP keep up keep up

[Emil El Zapato]

BNP keep up keep up

I thought you were going to bed? :)

[Dreamtimer]

Three blind mice is the strangest thoughts shared way back in time, metaphoric ?.

I don't recall at the moment, but like most nursery rhymes, there's an origin story which is usually disease, politics, or some other social theme.

Ring around the Rosies: disease. Yankee Doodle: politics. I"m pretty sure Three Blind Mice was also politics.

[Aianawa]

3 mice n a clock ? mmm n a dock ?, will research.

Lol not the original i feel lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1U0sWcNNIQ

[Aianawa]

Nursery rymes were the old brainwashing ?, gosh the grimes is harsh harsher indeed , why ?, so so doomy.

[Emil El Zapato]

Nursery rymes were the old brainwashing ?, gosh the grimes is harsh harsher indeed , why ?, so so doomy.

A portent for the unsuspecting children or a creative adult's need to express sadness for the plight of those not authoritarian in nature. Creative expression and the 'zombie' vision of the authoritarian are the antitheses of one another.

[Dreamtimer]

Nursery rymes were the old brainwashing ?, gosh the grimes is harsh harsher indeed , why ?, so so doomy.

Brainwashing? If all it took were nursery rhymes to brainwash we wouldn't need any government programs or media to do it, would we? I don't know why you are so doomy, Aianawa. I really don't know. ;)

Can anyone point to an arena where there are no politics. Church? Gobs of politics. Workplace? Constant politics. School Boards? Politics galore. Symphony or Opera? Politics abounding.

Why complain about its existence when it's a part of human interaction? Politics is what we do in place of war and killing. As we evolve we'll communicate more honestly, care about the seven generations which follow us, and not care about politics anymore.

That's a bit of a ways away yet. Not to mention the fact that the natural environment is giving us a big fat wake-up call. We will likely lose a great number of people to more disease, especially if the denial continues as it has. Global population will probably go down quite a bit since we're not at all prepared for the environment we've unleashed upon ourselves.

Those who emerge will care about the seven generations and won't be as petty as we are.

It's a nice long-term vision with some huge bumps in the road on the way.

[Aianawa]

Self inspection may help you DT.

Nursary ryhimes were really F'ed up back in the day from research, further back the worse it gets.

Back on track away from songs n mice murder shall we lol.

What is unspoken truth ???.

[Emil El Zapato]

Self inspection may help you DT.

Nursary ryhimes were really F'ed up back in the day from research, further back the worse it gets.

Back on track away from songs n mice murder shall we lol.

What is unspoken truth ???.

Little Willie

Willie in the best of sashes,
Fell in the fire and burned to ashes.
By and by the room grew chilly
Because no one wanted to poke up Willie.

Willie with a thirst for gore,
Nailed the baby to the door.
Mother said, with humor quaint:
"Careful, Will, don't scratch the paint."

Little Willie from the mirror
Licked the mercury all off
Thinking in his childish error
It would cure his whooping cough.
At the funeral, Willie's mother
Smartly said to Mrs. Brown,
"Twas a chilly day for Willie
When the mercury went down!"

Little Willie on the tracks
Didn't hear the engine squeal.
Now the engine's coming back
Scraping Willie off the wheel.

Willie poisoned Auntie's tea.
Auntie died in agony.
Uncle came and looked quite vexed.
"Really, Will," said he, "What next?"

Willie, I regret to state,
Cut his sister into bait.
We miss her when it's time to dine,
But Willie's fish taste simply fine.

Willie fell down the elevator,
Wasn't found till six days later.
Then the neighbors sniffed, "Gee whiz!
What a spoiled child Willie is."

Willie bashed open baby's head
To see if brains are gray or red.
What a naughty boy is he
He shall have no jam for tea.

Willie in the cauldron fell;
See the grief on mother's brow.
Mother loved her darling well;
Willie's quite hard-boiled by now.

Willie and two other brats
Licked up all the Rough-on-Rats.
Father said, when mother cried,
"Never mind, they'll die outside."

Into the family drinking well
Willie pushed his sister Nell.
She's there yet, because it kilt her
Now we'll have to buy a filter.

Little Willie, mean as hell,
Threw his sister in the well.
Said his mother when drawing water,
"Sure is hard to raise a daughter."

Little Willie hung his sister.
She was dead before we missed her.
"Willie's always up to tricks.
Ain't he cute! He's only six."

Little Willie's dead and gone.
His face we'll see no more.
For what he thought was H2O
Was H2SO4.

Willie saw some dynamite,
Couldn't understand it quite.
Curiosity never pays;
It rained Willie seven days.

[Dreamtimer]

Willie ever learn? That's a disturbing little rhyme. It's kind of familiar, I must've heard it or a version at some point.

The Grimm fairy tales are also much more disturbing and dark in their original form. I didn't know, as a kid, that the Hansel and Gretle that I read was much nicer than the original. People tell scary stories. They have for a very long time. Sometimes they're cautionary tales. Sometimes they're instructional. Sometimes they're designed to keep folks away from certain places.

It's part of human lore.

[Aianawa]

???, yes ?.Human Lore , really, so negative, imo positivity was the standard back in time, talking to your water n spirit each day, these horror stories will bring one down

[Aragorn]

???, yes ?.Human Lore , really, so negative, imo positivity was the standard back in time, talking to your water n spirit each day, these horror stories will bring one down

From what I can remember, when I was young, people told fairy tales and old-wives tales to the children in order to reign in their unbridled enthusiasm for exploring the world around them. Parents and grandparents would scare the children with such stories in order to make them more compliant and obedient — more dependent on their parents, you could say.

Of course, with some children, it had the exact opposite effect, and it made them even wilder, actively seeking out dangerous situations and putting themselves (and others) at risk just for the thrill of it.

But then again, not all fairy tales are sinister, and some had a very happy ending. I'm guessing that those were intended to teach the children about good and evil, and of how both exist in the world around them. But for a naive and autistic boy such as myself, it also created the illusion that there's always a happy ending to everything. And boy, did I learn the hard way that it's much rather the opposite...

:unsure:

[Dreamtimer]

Aesop's fable are another example of stories designed to instruct. They are less scary. The fairy tales we speak of come mostly from Europe and from quite a dark time. They reflect that, as language reflects culture.

Just look at how many gun, bullet and shooting language there is in American English.



The truth is often spoken of, except for places where they quiver in fear and run and hide from the truth.


Fox News’s blackout of Jan. 6 points to a hidden crisis for Democrats

By contrast, Fox hosts are gearing up to substitute a propagandistic alternative story in which the only real victims related to Jan. 6 and the hearings are Trump and his supporters. House Republicans allied with Trump will manufacture material for this disinformation push designed to keep the truth from the base at all costs.

Yet Fox’s blackout also highlights severe information challenges that Democrats will face for the foreseeable future. The fact that Republicans enjoy a massive media apparatus that manufactures a separate reality for the base, even as Democrats rely on traditional news organizations to communicate with voters, creates deep information asymmetries that continue to bedevil them.


This will actually bedevil the people in that bubble of propaganda. It already has. They went tilting at our big windmill and now are experiencing the consequences. We nee to understand that we will all be bedeviled if we allow this shit-show of lies to continue as if it's just another opinion.

[Aianawa]

If one is still watching a or many news mainstream wise channells still for your world view and your not experiencing problems or negativity , welcome to an open organic heart space and bless you for still being magnificent, if your watching mainstream news and pov wise still holding up what the talking heads have been told to inform you, have you UNDER stand, bless you, lets keep walking, if you hold a flower and it tells you to smell me so as to determine it's colour, bless you.

[Aianawa]

Ta joe, was helpfullll indeed your thread.

[Aianawa]

Just do not know where to put this, feel Aragorn will help, ta.

Love to know Joe's take on this.


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https://yummy.doctor/player-embed/id/6742/?fbclid=IwAR2u9HI8J0BhOuNMNzzseAqeqS_XmERlzcC083fp u9vON1J540AFfU0oVsw