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Liberty
2nd May 2014, 19:29
Dear Malc and Mods,

I wonder if you would allow an astrological thread? I took my walk today and thought about how I had answered a post with astrology jargon. I went on and on and realize that for those not interested it is like starting to talk another language and must seem boring or rude. However when one has studied the subject a long time it becomes like typing or riding a bike, you never forget about it.

Also, maybe some others here would not mind if they are interested and in different stages of astrological study. I do feel that we need to outgrow our charts when we choose to wake up and remember who we are, but in the beginning the chart is a map of the things we have chosen to experience in this 3d dimension of time and space.

I do have more to say but will let this be all right now till the management makes a decision.

Thanks and I trust whatever decision is made is the right one for this board that I like so much.

Sincerely,
Today:cloud:

Spiral
2nd May 2014, 19:42
You are welcome to post on astrology, there are many members of TOT who are interested in this subject & some quite knowledgeable indeed.

I know very little about this subject & often find the amount of jargon that goes with astrology means that it goes over my head, so I for one would welcome explanations :h5:

Catsquotl
2nd May 2014, 19:44
Please do start.

Been dabbling with astrology as of recently..
Fascinating and utterly confusing so far..

With Love
Eelco

Altaira
2nd May 2014, 20:06
Great thread Today, I would love to read it and even ask questions. I familiar with astrology but I am not too much into it and there are always things that bother me but I can't really get proper answers. I attend astrology group but most of the members are looking into astrology from less spiritual position and take into account the finer energies connecting everything.

Liberty
2nd May 2014, 20:07
Thanks Eelco and Spiral,

I think that explanations for those who have none or little knowledge would run into teaching the subject. If someone else on the board wants to take that up it is fine with me. I found the subject fascinating for years before I was able to go to a school and study it with a teacher. I emptied the library of all things astrology in the meantime. Those were my best years as that was where I was introduced to Spirituality....I had drifted away from Catholicism and read many books about Edgar Cayce, The Sleeping Prophet, Many LIves, Many LOves by Gina Cerminara (I think the spelling is correct) and several others but when she spoke it was like I never heard this kind of stuff....I was like a sponge so I suppose I was where I was meant to be.

A few years ago I happened to see the chart of Eckhart Tolle, author of The Power Of Now, and having seem him in DVD's and interviews it was clear to me he had transcended his chart...It was very contentious and difficult and this Being is now a peaceful teacher and guide for so many through his works. He never gave specifics as to the exact time/date he had his wake up experience, so we astrologers are in the dark but I think he has done that purposely as those things are irrelevant to him now and he does not talk much about his past or "story" as he refers to our little self before we wake up and remember who we are. Unfortunately I did not make a copy of his chart as I usually take note of these things but it was on my old computer which is gone now and I cannot remember his birth details.

So astrology is a tool while we struggle to wake up and remember but it can be put aside with spiritual growth and awareness (my opinions only).

Ronin, if you read this I want to say that we folks with a first house Uranus are trailblazers and want freedom for ourselves and everyone else. It is not an easy place however as you probably have realized but we are ahead of our time and its really hard for family or friends to understand us as we move away from conventional society and balk at the rules/regulations that we walk away from.

I thank you for allowing this thread and it will be interesting to see where it takes us...

Bye for today,

Today:cloud:

777
2nd May 2014, 21:24
Also, maybe some others here would not mind if they are interested and in different stages of astrological study. I do feel that we need to outgrow our charts when we choose to wake up and remember who we are, but in the beginning the chart is a map of the things we have chosen to experience in this 3d dimension of time and space.

I do have more to say but will let this be all right now till the management makes a decision.



Firstly......yes of course, please do! You don't need our permission to be yourself and share your experiences, thoughts and wisdom. I'm very excited where this thread/s could go and my interest is very much alive personally.

I've quoted only the above because it very much applies to where I am at with my understanding of astrology. I have never known the connection between how and why. I KNOW that I fit my own "chart" (term used very loosely....more like, proposed disposition according to hypotheses gathered to date) but I have no technical knowledge as to how.

I've also found that I am currently beginning to outgrow my chart/disposition and (almost defiantly, probably further complying to it!) not behaving in the manners it befits.

Thank you today (which you'll probably read tomorrow lol). Crack on beautiful soul.

:popc:

Highland1
2nd May 2014, 21:57
I think this is a wonderful idea Today, although I have to say I have a limited understanding of astrology.
I have had readings done in the past but to be fair were disappointing because they seemed to portray typical piscean traits that would apply to all pisceans.
So, I would like, if I may, to be a little cheeky!
What would the stars say about a person born on 18th march 1959 at 8.45 am in the highlands of Scotland?
Of course you dont have to reply to this Today, tomorrow will be fine! Lol

Russ :smile2:

Liberty
2nd May 2014, 23:38
Hello 777,

The technical knowledge you are speaking of is the birth data information where a chart is calculated mathematically. We now have programs that do that for us but when I studied in the early 70's there were no computers and to pass the AFA (American Federation of Astrologers) exam, you had to be able to set up a chart by hand in any part of the world....this is why I never took the exam:hmm:, I have never been able to do math!

As far as you being aware that some part of you is outgrowing your chart, that is a good thing; you are waking up and probably becoming more of the Being you truly are rather than the false self we all create in order to survive and think that is who we really are. I stopped doing personal charts a long time ago because I felt I was enabling others by giving them advice when I myself usually went inside for my own Guidance. I was thinking that we all need to go within and ask for guidance on what to do and learn to be still and wait for the answers. I also began to feel like I did not want to tell a person who they were according to a piece of paper and cast them in stone....this was the beginning of my own awakening.

However now I still place credence to some placements such as Ronin shared he had Uranus in the 1st house and when I feel intuitively someone can benefit from knowing about this, I will share this with them. So I am still a work in progress when it comes to astrological advice and interpretation. I do not want to do chart interpretation here specifically. If someone else who has more experience and wants to be helpful in this way then that would be good. I would like to add something I may see that comes to me intuitively as I have worked with people that way now and it feels right for me.

Any other astrologers who want to jump in here?? Hope this is helpful 777.

Sincerely,
Today:cloud:

Liberty
2nd May 2014, 23:48
Hi Russ,

First of all exactly where in the highlands of Scotland were you born? We need a specific place and secondly I will share what comes to me but it will not be an astrological reading. That was pages of writing and having someone sit with me for almost 2 hrs....maybe someone else here would love to help you in this way. I shy away from doing astrological readings per say. I will share if I feel there is something that may be helpful for you to know. By the way, I love your avatar....could that be you??? I would say you look like a very brave soul.

Hugs to you too.:smiley hug:
Today:cloud:

Seikou-Kishi
3rd May 2014, 00:17
Hi all, most of you probably know I am an astrologer. I'd be happy to help with whatever form this thread takes, whether it's a full in-depth discussion of the minutiae of the subject, or a thorough grounding in what we might call the operations side.

@Today
You know, sometimes it's just fun to calculate charts manually, don't you find?

I actually taught the subject in a nearby college for a time. My course counted towards students' extracurricular credit requirements, too. At the time I was also tutoring in philosophy of religion, political philosophy, epistemology, normative ethics and meta-ethics. All very fun :D

Moonlight
3rd May 2014, 01:55
:hmm: I too have Uranus in my first house, so that would be 3 of us at TOT. Three times a charm they say !

I have very basic knowledge of astrology, even though I have the interest, I've never studied it in depth for a long time. I will go into it for a while and then leave it. A friend has done my natal chart a couple of years ago as an exchange of service. It has been a reference book that I take out once in a while. I don't understand all the "sextile, conjunct, square... and degrees" talk. That would be my next studies I guess. My last exploration brought me a better understanding of the position of the planets in a chart and the meaning of the 12 houses. That's how I learned where Uranus was in my natal chart. How the position of Uranus in Aries today could affect me... I have no idea, but knowing where the planets are in my natal chart was very helpful in understanding a lot of things about myself. I'm a Cancerian. I always thought I made a lousy Cancerian, as I don't recognize myself in many of the traits. Add to this the Ascendant, the Moon, and the position of the planets, it gets more interesting.

There are many sites where you can do your chart for free. This site was recommended elsewhere: https://www.astro.com/ All you need is the date, the place and the hour of birth.

Cearna
3rd May 2014, 03:57
Hi, Moonlight, let's make that 4 of us with Uranus in the 1st House, mine is in Taurus and is Conjunct, most of those planets in Aries in my 12th House, which make it my most important planet in my chart - definitely helps towards making me a whacko!

The One
3rd May 2014, 06:10
I am so looking forward to this thread Today.You have our complete blessings and as you can see you have the support of many members who would love to participate

Cheers

Highland1
3rd May 2014, 07:23
Hi Russ,

First of all exactly where in the highlands of Scotland were you born? We need a specific place and secondly I will share what comes to me but it will not be an astrological reading. That was pages of writing and having someone sit with me for almost 2 hrs....maybe someone else here would love to help you in this way. I shy away from doing astrological readings per say. I will share if I feel there is something that may be helpful for you to know. By the way, I love your avatar....could that be you??? I would say you look like a very brave soul.

Hugs to you too.:smiley hug:
Today:cloud:

Thank you Today, I really would not want to put you out of your way with a personal reading as I can now see it is time consuming.
Thank you though for the gesture as my gut feeling is you would have done it anyway out of the kindness of your heart.

Warm regards

Russ

Altaira
3rd May 2014, 08:00
Well mine Uranus is in the 1st house too, I wont be surprised if many of us here have Uranus in 1st.

I would like to ask SK and others who know what do you think of traditional astrology and do you use its methods? I had the chance to attend lectures of Benjamin Dykes who uses exclusively traditional astrology and translates ancient astrologers such as Aby Ma'shar, al-Qabisi and Guido Bonatti. I am inclined to prefer traditional astrology as more universal method but also it is difficult for me to accept that the outer planets are completely ignored.

Tribe
3rd May 2014, 10:11
You are welcome to post on astrology, there are many members of TOT who are interested in this subject & some quite knowledgeable indeed.

I know very little about this subject & often find the amount of jargon that goes with astrology means that it goes over my head, so I for one would welcome explanations :h5:

Agree totally with my brother here , fascinated by it but could do with some decoding for those who may not get the jargon.. It's would be great to get some education on it ! Xxx

ronin
3rd May 2014, 10:47
Hello 777,

The technical knowledge you are speaking of is the birth data information where a chart is calculated mathematically. We now have programs that do that for us but when I studied in the early 70's there were no computers and to pass the AFA (American Federation of Astrologers) exam, you had to be able to set up a chart by hand in any part of the world....this is why I never took the exam:hmm:, I have never been able to do math!

As far as you being aware that some part of you is outgrowing your chart, that is a good thing; you are waking up and probably becoming more of the Being you truly are rather than the false self we all create in order to survive and think that is who we really are. I stopped doing personal charts a long time ago because I felt I was enabling others by giving them advice when I myself usually went inside for my own Guidance. I was thinking that we all need to go within and ask for guidance on what to do and learn to be still and wait for the answers. I also began to feel like I did not want to tell a person who they were according to a piece of paper and cast them in stone....this was the beginning of my own awakening.

However now I still place credence to some placements such as Ronin shared he had Uranus in the 1st house and when I feel intuitively someone can benefit from knowing about this, I will share this with them. So I am still a work in progress when it comes to astrological advice and interpretation. I do not want to do chart interpretation here specifically. If someone else who has more experience and wants to be helpful in this way then that would be good. I would like to add something I may see that comes to me intuitively as I have worked with people that way now and it feels right for me.

Any other astrologers who want to jump in here?? Hope this is helpful 777.

Sincerely,
Today:cloud:

hi Today,
i am sorry you must be mistaken as i have never said anything about Uranus in the 1st house.
i know absolute nothing concerning astrology,readings of the charts .
although i do find it interesting but it is all jargon to me.:D

Moonlight
3rd May 2014, 11:48
:spinning: oh, so we've lost Ronin with the Uranus thingy, or maybe we didn't as we'd have to do his chart to be certain. I too would not be surprised if we were many with that position of Uranus here at TOT. It apparently makes for a very independent and eccentric personality with a fierce love of freedom and unconventional ways.

I hate routine and have made big changes happen in my life a couple of times on a "coup de tête" (spur of the moment decision). I was tempted to do it again a year or two ago, but tempered myself knowing where the push was coming from (Uranus loves changes). The changes are still in motion but are happening in a less chaotic way. Fiou....

From what I understand, the first house is linked to the Individual Personality. Here is what I have on it:


The first house is the house of personality, of the body, and appearance. It tells you about your inherited characteristics traits rather than the habits and patterns of behavior you acquire in life. It determines how you view the world around you and how others perceive you, how you portray yourself to the people you meet and how they, in turn, view you. The first house is also associated with how you respond to stimulus from without and the strength with which you stand up for yourself.

Spiral
3rd May 2014, 12:05
Ok, heres an idiot question, what is the first house (& houses generally) ? and is it the same for eveyrone or does it depend on your Sun sign ?

777
3rd May 2014, 12:09
Ok, heres an idiot question, what is the first house (& houses generally) ? and is it the same for eveyrone or does it depend on your Sun sign ?

Yeah. What he said :blsh:

Moonlight
3rd May 2014, 12:27
LOL... here's an idiot answer... hopefully those who have more knowledge will kick in.

There are 12 houses in a chart, each house represents a sphere of influence. Imagine a circle divided in twelve pieces, each representing a house.
572

(look at the middle of the circle to see the houses) BTW... this is a fictious natal chart of a female born on 22-01-1947 at 15:15 in London, England.



The 12 houses of a horoscope are defined as the imaginary divisions of the ecliptic at the moment of someone's birth, the ascendant marking the beginning of the first house. The position of the houses in connection with the star signs changes very rapidly, together with the ascendant, and is therefore very personal. The houses are commonly referred to as the spheres or influence, whose definitions correlate with their corresponding signs (for example, Aries/first house, Taurus/second house, etc.) and they determine how you approach different areas of your life.

777
3rd May 2014, 12:44
God bless you moonlight! The lay man's terms are very much appreciated by me. Without such a clinical explanation I would have been perpetually lost in lingo I didn't understand.

So here's the Neanderthals question that I'm clueless enough to ask as I scrape the skin off my dangling knuckles lol: is a persons' initial chart a dynamic affair that changes with spiritual growth and/or conditioning??

Moonlight
3rd May 2014, 13:03
I would say, definitely yes. I'm supposed to be a hoarder of things.... uhh... NOT! I get very uncomfortable when I have too much stuff and then start to give it all away.

But I'm no expert, so I will bow and let those who know what they are talking about kick in...

:getcoat:

777
3rd May 2014, 13:52
I would say, definitely yes. I'm supposed to be a hoarder of things.... uhh... NOT! I get very uncomfortable when I have too much stuff and then start to give it all away.

But I'm no expert, so I will bow and let those who know what they are talking about kick in...

:getcoat:

Have no fear, I'm not trying to trip you up I am genuinely wondering.

@ Seikou......the more layers peeled off your enigmatic exterior the more humbled and confused I become. You seem to have experienced so much for one so young in human years. I honestly had no idea about that part of your history! More more more lol

Spiral
3rd May 2014, 14:01
Ok I've done my chart off the link on the last page, & found that that Uranus in the first house ! LOL

What do words like "sextile, square, conjunction & trine mean & what is the significance ?

Catsquotl
3rd May 2014, 14:02
So here's the Neanderthals question that I'm clueless enough to ask as I scrape the skin off my dangling knuckles lol: is a persons' initial chart a dynamic affair that changes with spiritual growth and/or conditioning??

Hi,
I would say so.
Someone made the analogy of astrological influences like a pond. Where the planets are like rocks sticking out through the surface.

The natal chart would be like throwing a pebble into the pond. the rings it makes and how they are effected by those standing rocks is in my mind a perfect image of the dynamics involved..

with love
eelco

777
3rd May 2014, 16:25
Ok I've done my chart off the link on the last page, & found that that Uranus in the first house ! LOL

What do words like "sextile, square, conjunction & trine mean & what is the significance ?

I'm going to further celebrate my foolishness by asking where is the chart generator on said link mate?

*very excited!*

Spiral
3rd May 2014, 16:41
I'm going to further celebrate my foolishness by asking where is the chart generator on said link mate?

*very excited!*

https://www.astro.com/ Top left, "free horoscopes" then click on "Horoscope Drawings & Calculations" at the bottom of the drop down menu.

It actually gives quite a lot but its not obvious, besides the chart you get a pdf readout of whats where & there is a (long) page listing the main points & what they mean re influences & your personality.

777
3rd May 2014, 16:44
https://www.astro.com/ Top left, "free horoscopes" then click on "Horoscope Drawings & Calculations" at the bottom of the drop down menu.

It actually gives quite a lot but its not obvious, besides the chart you get a pdf readout of whats where & there is a (long) page listing the main points & what they mean re influences & your personality.

Thank you mate :chrs:

Moonlight
3rd May 2014, 17:26
Have no fear, I'm not trying to trip you up I am genuinely wondering.

Haha... no fear here, just a bit of ignorance on the subject and Love... :p

777
3rd May 2014, 17:30
Haha... no fear here, just a bit of ignorance on the subject and Love... :p

Very glad to hear it! :)

Altaira
3rd May 2014, 19:30
Ok I've done my chart off the link on the last page, & found that that Uranus in the first house ! LOL

What do words like "sextile, square, conjunction & trine mean & what is the significance ?

I will say a little bit about those words and will leave the trest to the professionals. Simply these are called aspects and they express the angular distance between two planets in the astrological chart. Ptolomaic aspects (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) are all based on dividing the circle into multiples of two and three, to a total of twelve.The twelve pieces of the chart are divided in 30° each. Hard aspects mean that two planets or signs in the chart cannot communicate properly with each other or are obstructed by certain obstacles.

Main hard aspects are opposition180° and square 90°.

Opposition of the Signs that make

Opposition is opposition and is seen as not easy aspect. However this can also be positive. Very often Scorpio people are attracted to Taurus which is straight across the zodiac. And Cancers and Capricorns can be very compatible. There is often a strong attraction in opposites.

Square Aspects of the Signs make 90 in between.

This aspect between sun signs can be the most challenging. Remember there is no good or bad in any aspects, just different circumstances obstacles that might even help us .



Conjunct Signs

Conjunct signs is determined when one sign is next to the other on the astrology wheel. How these signs work together is deeply affected by other aspects on the chart. This position of the signs is more of a positive aspect than a negative one.

Main Soft Aspects are sextile 60°and trine 120°

Trine Aspect Between Signs 120°

This is perhaps the most harmonious of all aspects. The trine aspect are always signs in the same elements. I am repeating this for emphasis and you don't have to look up to figure out what signs you are trine with.

For example If you are Sagittarius you are trine with Leo and Aries ..both fire signs.

If you are a Taurus you are trined with Capricorn and Virgo--all earth signs.

If you are a Libra you are trine with Gemini and Aquarius--all air signs

If you are a Pisces you are trine with Scorpios and Cancers--all water signs.



Having perfect harmony and a relatively easy communication between two signs not always make the perfect team but it surely cannot hurt.

Sextile Aspect Between Signs makes 60°

This aspect is basically determined by jumping one sign. For example if you are a Sagittarius you form a sextile with an Aquarius and a Libra.

Apart from thos major aspectthere are several minor which can be seen from the fig below.

http://www.futuresobright.com/images/app-content-images/1361943295_aspects-of-astrology.jpg

I hope this was a simple explanation but please correct me if I've done a mistake.

norman
3rd May 2014, 22:51
I'm basically an astrology 'skeptic', but I do have to admit that it is at least based on more than arbitrary measures.

As with most things I wasn't properly introduced to at an appropriate stage by the right person at the right time, I've had more than enough ******** spoken to me about astrology. Really stupid stuff that I could see straight through.

Many people I've known over my life have been really quite sweet wishful thinkers, doing a charming job of cultivating wishful work-arounds for a lack of understanding. I could see it clearly but they were so nice I didn't want to be unkind.

My bottom line grasp ( or non grasp ) of astrology is that I have no working knowledge of how to go about it properly but I have an instinctive hunch that there is something big to it, if only people could cut through the crap and get their heads directly around the real thing without legacy cultural mysticisms.

Seikou-Kishi
4th May 2014, 05:25
Ok, heres an idiot question, what is the first house (& houses generally) ? and is it the same for eveyrone or does it depend on your Sun sign ?

It doesn't depend on your sun sign, though there is a small connection. Houses are the division of the circle into (usually) twelve sectors. They are determined by time and location on the globe and it's possible to draw the houses on a map of the globe (do you remember that picture you put up showing where the blood moon would be visible? The houses, when drawn over the planet, look like that).

In the most common systems today, the first house begins at the point called the Ascendant. This is the point in the sky on the eastern horizon: it's rising, and thus your rising sign is the sign which lies over the eastern horizon at birth. All houses have a mirror house six houses along and they will be equally sized. If your first house begins in the 9th degree of Leo, your seventh will begin in the 9th degree of Aquarius (180 degrees away).

This is why I say there is a small connection between sun signs and the first house: if you happened to be born at dawn, your sun would be conjunct the Ascendant (that is, in the same place as the start of the first house). Dawn always begins when the sun is conjunct the Ascendant, and because by the dawn of the following day the sun will be only very slightly ahead (just under a degree, since the 365 days the sun takes to move through the zodiac are divided by the 360 degrees of that zodiac), it is possible to take a rough guess at the ascendant by judging how far between dawns you were born.

Say we're two thirds of the way through Cancer. Dawn on your birthday was 5 am and the same the following day. You were born at 2 pm. Because that's 9 hours after one dawn and 15 hours before the other, you can say that you're roughly 9/24 or 3/8 of the way through the zodiac from your sun sign. 3/8s of 360 is 135 or 4.5 whole signs. 4 signs after Cancer is Scorpio, then you were two thirds of the way through Cancer and there's another half, so we can add another sign on (0.67+0.5=1.17) and say your Ascendant is about a fifth of the way through Sagittarius. Of course, it's only a rough guide.

Calz
4th May 2014, 06:09
Short answer is every planet has different sorts of impact on our lives.

Sun and moon are most prominent.

Others have to do with different aspects of our lives.

How they all fit together is ... stuff for astrologers to discern.


Yes it is real.


Yes it has a great impact on all our lives.


My 2 cents worth (awaiting your 2 cent checks in the mail ... )

Catsquotl
4th May 2014, 16:47
575

With Love
Eelco

Catsquotl
4th May 2014, 17:03
So any thoughts on the whole sign vs placidus house systems debate?

I am having a difficult time understanding the placidus system where whole sign seems to make more sense...
For my untrained eye anyway.

With Love
Eelco

Catsquotl
4th May 2014, 17:11
For those that like to play a while.
There are some programs you can download via various torrent sites.(for review purposes only and then buy them of course)
Janus 4
Solar fire gold
Kepler

The Kepler has an avalon course in astrology on the disk...
All of them give detailed (generic) reports and klickable drawings that make it fun to explore..

What I find most difficult in my trying to understand this. Is the fact that most reports or sites have elaborate stories to explain the qualities of a planet or a sign. Where I'd like to have a more general list of qualities..

For a book tip.
I've been reading "the only astrology book you'll ever need" by Joanna Martine Woolfolk.
It at least gives all the info to get you started in a simple laid out way.

http://www.modev.us/Astrology_book.pdf

WIth Love
Eelco(Who just got interested because of the grand cross last month)

Catsquotl
4th May 2014, 17:31
Yes it is real.


Yes it has a great impact on all our lives.


My 2 cents worth (awaiting your 2 cent checks in the mail ... )

I like to see it more in a so above so below kind of way. Its not the planets or signs that influence us. As it is an energetic play that moves it all. The forces that govern the planets within the zodiac are the same that govern our lives. so its more like a mirror that reflect the dynamics of our lives..

with love
Eelco

Spiral
4th May 2014, 18:57
575

With Love
Eelco

I have no idea what any of this means but i have the same blue triangles & red cross ?

Catsquotl
4th May 2014, 19:02
The red lines are oppositions and squares if you have them.
The so called harder aspects..

The blue and green lines are the so called softer aspects..

Patterns like these are fairly common. I think the more obvious ones even have names..

With Love
Eelco

Liberty
4th May 2014, 21:18
Hello Seikou-Kishi,

I had to be brought to outpatient this morning as when I got up my head was spinning as well as the room.....it did not stop so after a lull I called my neighbor and she took me.
I refused all the tests they wanted to do and I signed myself out...I feel I have not been getting enough sleep for some time now and also stress so I still feel tired. This post was on my mind as I was trying to find a way to answer and you just made it easier, so I thank you....I do not want to read astrology charts anymore but I know many here would like that and I kinda left it open ended.

I like to discuss more the specifics in someone's chart such as Uranus in the first house or some of the aspects but giving readings was not what I had in mind so I am glad you offered. I do feel the subject can be helpful and I also felt I do not have the experience that others like yourself have so again I am happy for your gift in this way. I don't know if I will be going to the library as I need to rest and I think the last part of the month and its energies have affected me. The eclipse of the 28th landed in my 6/12 house axis.

I was never good in math and could not have done the calculations in order to pass the AFA tests back in the early 70's so it is great for me to have a computer program that does the math!!! So glad for your input and support...

Hugs,
:smiley hug:
Today:cloud:

Seikou-Kishi
4th May 2014, 21:20
Hi everybody. I couldn't resist checking out this thread before I go off for my festivities. Ours begin on the dusk of the preceding day, according to Anglo-Saxon (and, incidentally, Jewish) custom.

All things being equal the sun and moon will tend to be the most prominent but, of course, in any particularly chart it is safe to say that all things won't be equal. There are many combinations that can result in the sun and moon having diminished impacts. The sun does not fare well in the 12th house of imprisonment, for example, but is very well at home in the 5th house of creativity and standing out from the crowd. The sun is also weakest in Aquarius (the sun is the planet of the self and Aquarius is the sign of selfless humanitarianism), being opposite its sign of rulership, Leo, the look-at-me sign.

There are also relationships between planets called trees of disposition or dispositors. When Planet A is in the/a sign ruled by Planet B, Planet A's energy is said to be diverted towards the goals of Planet A. You can think of it in terms of lords and vassals: if Jupiter is in Aries, Jupiter is the "vassal" of Mars and Jupiter's activities will be in support of Mars' goals. If, however, Jupiter is in Aries but Mars is in either Sagittarius or Pisces (both ruled by Jupiter), we would have a situation called "mutual reception", in which both play into each other. This can get interesting when both planets are in their weak spots. I recently saw a chart in which Saturn was in Leo and the Sun was in Aquarius. Because both are in weakened positions and the relationship is somewhat tense, it is as though the kings of two warring nations find themselves in each other's war camps. That can be a source of great distress or the foundation of an eager peace.

Eelco, I completely agree with you. I do not think the planets themselves, as balls of rock, have that much effect on humanity. I think the planets' movements are the result of a clockwork system of energetic fluctuations and these are the same fluctuations that are the background of human life.

As for the whole-sign house system versus the Placidus, well, I think any system, not just the Placidus system, is better than the whole-sign system, which is crude and unrefined.

Liberty
4th May 2014, 21:22
Hi Eelco,

Thanks for the book tip. I studied with Frances Sakoian who wrote "The Astrologers Handbook" in 1973. She wrote others with Betty Caulfield and Louis Acker on transits, and comparisons. So happy you got interested!

Happy Day,
Today:cloud:

Liberty
4th May 2014, 21:47
Hi Russ,

I would like to say something about your sun sign. You mentioned those who have interpreted your chart told you things you already knew about Pisces. The sun sign is very important...It is your starring role! it is what you came to be/do and the other planets either help or hinder that. I see with with music, one of the gifts of Pisces natives...also dance, poetry, art, singing (my dad had 4 planets in pisces and had a wonderful tenor voice. Music was so important to him and his moods. Pisces are very sensitive and kind souls who are there to help and can feel others pain.
I did set up a chart without the place called a solar chart and you have a cancer moon....the moon rules cancer and so that is a very powerful placement. Home and family ties are very important to you and you are very protective of the "clan". Your sun has a hidden trine to Jupiter in Saggitarius so you are very magnanimous with others and are protected for the most part with this aspect. You probably love to travel and a spiritual path is important to you. You may have a problem balancing your home life with your career but you are a strong person who can cheer others when they are down. Hope this helps a bit.

There was once a joke about a pisces which went like this; Once a pisces has made up his mind, anyone can change it! lol....that is because it is what we call a mutable sign, flexible and adaptable and a good salesman or con artist can hook pisces people in. My dad was this way.

Peace/hugs
Today:cloud:

Liberty
4th May 2014, 21:50
Hi Tribe,

Would be happy to explain the jargon.....it is just like learning another language if you are interested it comes easy...if not one may walk away....

Today:cloud:

Altaira
4th May 2014, 21:50
Spiral,
I have no idea what any of this means but i have the same blue triangles & red cross ?

The lines inside the circle show the aspects between the planets. Those aspects are also shown in the table at the left bottom corner and the meaning of glyphs are explained in my post above.

Seikou-Kishi
4th May 2014, 22:08
I'm sorry to hear of your recent trouble Today. There are many possible causes for your symptoms and all but a handful are benign and completely transient :-)


As for Uranus in the First... well, the first thing we have to remember is that the First house is not, to be completely accurate, the house of identity — it's the house of public identity. The First house shows the kind of image we present to the world. This is an image that is usually presented without conscious effort and so is not inherently deceptive, it is more indicative of our standard "interfacing protocols", so to speak. It is how we relate to others and the façades we erect — or lack thereof.

In the First house, Uranus presents a native who demands their freedom. They will not suffer themselves to remain in any relationship, social, intimate or professional, which hinders their ability to decide for themselves, and the native usually has a great sense of pride in their individuality. There is a propensity which, when fed, can cause the native to pander to shock value, presenting an appearance designed not to reflect an inner sense of uniqueness but merely to elicit the horrified gasps of more conservative tastes. The placement of Uranus in the First house creates a native who can range from the very best of eccentricity to the very worst of public perversion and this is always a factor in the first house: it is not so much a case of being but a case of being seen to be.

Being seen to be unique and original doesn't sound like a combination that should be rare here, whether or not that appearance reflects an inner truth or a conscious projection will be shown by the relationship between this and other factors.

At the best end of the spectrum, people view you as spontaneous and lively, always willing to give more life to the party than you take and ever at the ready to give people a kick to shake them from their complacency — whether they want to be shaken from their complacency or not. At the worst end of the spectrum, people will consider such a native unreliable and fickle with an attitude that cares very little for the plodding inconvenience of diplomacy and tact. Usually, though, the person born with Uranus in their First house will be seen as altruistic, with the specifics of an individual's chart determining whether this sense of altruism takes the form of a Piscean drowning beneath a sea of sorrow at the pain in the world or an Aquarian philosophical and stand-offish altruism which prefers to lend a hand without the distasteful sentimentality that often goes along with it. A third option, if Capricorn is rising, would be a person whose attempts at altruism and charity are perceived as being of a very pragmatic kind: such a native's first thought might be to create and register a charity with the Charity Commission (Pisces and Virgo would be better at the nuts and bolts of serving soup). If Aries was rising, on the other hand, people would view the native as very eagerly charitable, frequently undertaking great charitable works but seeing very few of them, if any, to completion — especially considering the boom and bust cycle of Uranian influence — whereas with Virgo rising the native might find the outlet for their altruism in administrative or hands-on work for charities. Leo rising would fill the charitable works with a sense that ranged from a magnanimous desire to help those in need to a haughty and self-satisfied vanity project, while Sagittarius would combine the Leonine feel-good factor with the Aquarian philosophical impulse — though Sagittarius rising would also include much in the way of ideological or religious impetus.

Liberty
5th May 2014, 13:02
Thank you SK for your great input. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.
thanks for the great teaching.

Peace,
Today:cloud:

Seikou-Kishi
5th May 2014, 22:36
The whole point of the difference between the Ascendant as public image and the Sun as the source of identity shows that more often than not are things not what they seem to be at first sight.

Yes, I can see your point, Today; people do not realise just how clearly they can be seen when they give their natal information away. The deepest recesses of their minds are not hidden from anybody who can decode what information those keys unlock.

Spiral
6th May 2014, 08:09
I see now that "computer generated" charts are obviously only very rough guides because they just throw up simple points & can't go into mitigating factors & how various thing work together.

:cracky:

Seikou-Kishi
6th May 2014, 13:43
I see now that "computer generated" charts are obviously only very rough guides because they just throw up simple points & can't go into mitigating factors & how various thing work together.

:cracky:

Computer generated charts would be fine if by computer generated chart you mean using a computer program to determine the correct configuration of the chart, such as the placements of the planets and house cusps throughout the zodiac. Computers make transferring a three dimensional picture of the space around Earth into a two dimensional zodiacal circle very easy

The problem comes with computer programmes that "interpret" star charts. This is where the problem comes, because people will write stock answers for things like our example of Uranus in the First house and these stock answers will be cobbled together in sequence to create a "reading", but in reality this is pretty useless because it analyses each part in isolation and nothing in the universe actually works like that. This is why people end up with horoscopes that describe completely contradictory things. Sure, people can and often do live in complete contradiction, but the contradictions that arise in horoscopes usually originate in these "kitbashed" horoscopes or in "astrologers" who rely on simplistic interpretations in the same way.

Spiral
6th May 2014, 13:52
The problem comes with computer programmes that "interpret" star charts. This is where the problem comes, because people will write stock answers for things like our example of Uranus in the First house and these stock answers will be cobbled together in sequence to create a "reading", but in reality this is pretty useless because it analyses each part in isolation and nothing in the universe actually works like that. This is why people end up with horoscopes that describe completely contradictory things. Sure, people can and often do live in complete contradiction, but the contradictions that arise in horoscopes usually originate in these "kitbashed" horoscopes or in "astrologers" who rely on simplistic interpretations in the same way.

Thats exactly what I meant with my ham fisted collection of words.

I paid for a reading years ago & got one of those, more of a hindrance than a help.

BabaRa
6th May 2014, 16:01
My thoughts: Astrology is an accurate way to point out our "tendencies" so that we learn to evolve past them. Once we understand 'why', we can make corrections or adjustments. It's not meant to be a prophecy written in stone.

Good guideposts, but just guideposts. And trying to find someone in this day and age that is truly skilled in reading the guideposts well - is pretty difficult.

Catsquotl
7th May 2014, 07:23
So instead of looking for a skilled guidepost. How would one go about becomming one..
What should one look for. Most books, websites and programs seem to emphazise getting to know the individual signs, planets and aspects..
They seem to offer small to the point keywords or elaborate stories to convey "meaning"

What do you do in trying to integrate it.
Meditate?
Vision?
study?

if study.. study what exactly.

With Love
Eelco

Altaira
7th May 2014, 07:55
I had a question at the begginning of this thread but probablyit wasn't noticed so I would like to ask again.
Among many types of astrology there are two distinctive approaches towards interpreting the chart that many Western astrologers chose to adopt. There is the modern aproach which we are all familiar with because this is more common and most astrological schools teach it and traditional approach almost forgotten or neglected.

The modern approach uses all planets and asteroids and employed various more psychological techniques in interpreting the chart. Without going too in depth I will to mention only few distinctions here - it uses all known planets, asteroids and unequal houses system.

Traditional astrology on the other hand shifts the emphasis and priority but it still overlaps contemporary practices because it was once a base from which modern astrology derived. In traditional astrology the emphasis is on the main planets and the outer planets are excluded, techniques used for interpreting the horoscope derive from the Hellenistic astrological schools as most of the old texts known today are known to start from that time periodaround the 330s BC.

I know traditional astrologers who swear old methods work better in many situations and astrologers who use both systems in order to fill the missing fragments in the modern astrological approach or vice versa. Traditional astrology offers clearer practical tools for connecting to herbal and holistic medicine and revives some Neoplatonic and other metaphysical approaches to astrology. This sheds more light on practical spirituality and magical practices and familiarity with astrology aides them and explains many things.

Have you noticed that there is a recent revival of traditional astrology and what are your thoughts about it if you are familiar with it ?

Altaira
7th May 2014, 07:58
So instead of looking for a skilled guidepost. How would one go about becomming one..
What should one look for. Most books, websites and programs seem to emphazise getting to know the individual signs, planets and aspects..
They seem to offer small to the point keywords or elaborate stories to convey "meaning"

What do you do in trying to integrate it.
Meditate?
Vision?
study?

if study.. study what exactly.

With Love
Eelco

It is interesting to see your questions now after I finished writing the above post because I would think that traditional astrology can give you some answers.

Catsquotl
7th May 2014, 09:27
<snip>
There is the modern aproach which we are all familiar with because this is more common and most astrological schools teach it and traditional approach almost forgotten or neglected.

<snip>
Traditional astrology offers clearer practical tools for connecting to herbal and holistic medicine and revives some Neoplatonic and other metaphysical approaches to astrology. This sheds more light on practical spirituality and magical practices and familiarity with astrology aides them and explains many things.

Have you noticed that there is a recent revival of traditional astrology and what are your thoughts about it if you are familiar with it ?

I am not familiar with traditional astrology per se, but it has me wondering.
I feel astrology from a "mirror" like point of view would suggest traditional is more addept to explain/mirror the "old" ways of holistic healing, magic and such as those modalities were "conscious" when they thrived.

Now over the last few decades as we learned more. discovered about other/outer planets we likewise mirrored an awakening in conscioussness. As can be found in modern astrology. So for a more up to date look at ourselves through astrology would incorporate the more modern approach to astrology. If on the other hand one wishes to know about the "old" ways traditional astrology would be ample information.

Just thinking out loud here...

With Love
Eelco

Curt
7th May 2014, 11:55
Computer generated charts would be fine if by computer generated chart you mean using a computer program to determine the correct configuration of the chart, such as the placements of the planets and house cusps throughout the zodiac. Computers make transferring a three dimensional picture of the space around Earth into a two dimensional zodiacal circle very easy

The problem comes with computer programmes that "interpret" star charts. This is where the problem comes, because people will write stock answers for things like our example of Uranus in the First house and these stock answers will be cobbled together in sequence to create a "reading", but in reality this is pretty useless because it analyses each part in isolation and nothing in the universe actually works like that. This is why people end up with horoscopes that describe completely contradictory things. Sure, people can and often do live in complete contradiction, but the contradictions that arise in horoscopes usually originate in these "kitbashed" horoscopes or in "astrologers" who rely on simplistic interpretations in the same way.

Hello, S.K. I'd be very interested in your take on my natal chart.

But, I understand you have a life and things to do. So, if you don't feel like it, no worries. :meditating:

It's a bit of a doozy, I'm told.

I'll send my details to you via PM, and would be happy for you to do an open analysis here in this thread- with the particulars of the date, time and location of my birth left out.

Again, if it's not something you're interested in doing, no worries.

Highland1
7th May 2014, 12:00
This is my layman's concept of astrology.
The infinite universes that are within my entire conscious being are identical to the external infinite universes for they are one and the same.
My body is merely a space vehicle which started its journey at birth and no doubt would have had a particular star alignment upon taking my first breath.
The rest of lifes journey as we hurtle through time and space as explorers, constantly seeking answers as we look at the stars and the heavens as to our purpose and reason for existence.
It seems to me that only when I can find inner harmony and alignment with myself will I be able to harmonise with all that is exterior using experience and consciousness as a tool for navigation.
Given my own personal experiences I have steered myself off course many times in this life time but have found myself seemingly back on track guided by other heavenly bodies such as the members on this forum.
So rather than take guidance from a newspaper zodiac horoscope, I prefer to take it from the stars that are each and every one of you.
Your lights shine so brightly I have never ever been left in the dark and for that I thank you all.

Russ

Calz
7th May 2014, 16:22
Well mine Uranus is in the 1st house too, I wont be surprised if many of us here have Uranus in 1st.



Uranus is a very slow moving planet so to be in a particular sign would be generational.

To have it in any particular house is a much different story and would be a one in twelve chance based on your rising sun (meaning 2 hours a day at the time you were born).


I have been mostly a "hobby" type astrologer in my life but used to have the programs and did some research on the investment side of it.



What turned out to be more "fun" was the "characteristics" of people based on the stars. Quite dramatic once you understand.


I can verify the effects on our lives as long as we remember we still have a choice in exactly how to respond to those energies.


For example ... any particular astro alignment statistically will produce some sort of generalized characteristic yet we always have the ability to rise up and do something else with that type of energy. I hope that makes sense?


Looking at a persons natal chart can tell you very much about what that person. No way written in stone or predestined ... but rather a blueprint.

Calz
7th May 2014, 16:56
I like to see it more in a so above so below kind of way. Its not the planets or signs that influence us. As it is an energetic play that moves it all. The forces that govern the planets within the zodiac are the same that govern our lives. so its more like a mirror that reflect the dynamics of our lives..

with love
Eelco


Well in terms of what affects humans on a personal level there are certain characteristics that are the "default" if you will.

Pick up most any astro book and you will read about "traits" that are attributed to a particular planet in each of the signs.

There are also "aspects" (the 45, 60, 90, 180 etc) ratios of how planets effect each other and can enhance said characteristics.


Don't have time now (sleepy time) but can post some of the better astro books that I have at a later time.


Fascinating stuff and the deeper you look the more you come convinced (at least that was the case for me).

Altaira
7th May 2014, 18:10
I have been mostly a "hobby" type astrologer in my life but used to have the programs and did some research on the investment side of it.






For example ... any particular astro alignment statistically will produce some sort of generalized characteristic yet we always have the ability to rise up and do something else with that type of energy. I hope that makes sense?


Looking at a persons natal chart can tell you very much about what that person. No way written in stone or predestined ... but rather a blueprint.

Well I'm very much like what you say Calzy, not astrologer too but enthusiast and I completely agree with you. I have to say these were my thoughts too. I think we are born with the chart which is our blueprint and then our task is to learn to use this in a best possible way.

Spiral
7th May 2014, 19:17
There is an old saying;

"The stars impel, they do not compel"

Highland1
14th May 2014, 14:27
I am still intrigued by this thread due in part to my limited understanding of Astrology.

The following chart statistics was made for me online roughly five years since and I cannot make head nor tail of it.

I simply supplied date of birth, time of birth and place of birth.

I still have the full reading and it would be interesting to see if the astrologers amongst you can perhaps correlate any information that might coincide with the original reading.

Any takers?


Sun Pisces 27° 0' in house 11
Moon Cancer 5° 17' in house 2
Mercury Aries 12° 53' in house 12
Venus Aries 26° 53' in house 12
Mars Gemini 17° 25' in house 1
Jupiter Saggitarius 1° 59' in house 6
Saturn Capricorn 6° 21' in house 8
Uranus Leo 12° 41' in house 4
Neptune Scorpio 6° 33' in house 6
Pluto Virgo 2° 23' in house 5
Ascendant Gemini 15° 9' in house 1
Medium Coeli Aquarius 1° 33' in house 10
North Node true Libra 13° 11' in house 6
2 Cancer 1° 41' in house 2
3 Cancer 15° 44' in house 3
4 Leo 1° 33' in house 4
5 Leo 24° 16' in house 5
6 Libra 7° 28' in house 6


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zodiac Tropical
Time Zone: 0 hours WEST
Latitude & Longitude: 57N6 2W37
Aspects y Orbs:
Conjunction: 8 Degrees
Opposition: 8 Degrees
Sqaure: 8 Degrees
Trine: 8 Degrees
Sextile: 5 Degrees


Told you I was cheeky!


Russ

Spiral
14th May 2014, 16:27
Oh you've done it now Russ, SK will be rummaging around in the deepest recesses of your mind :nails:

Highland1
14th May 2014, 16:38
Oh you've done it now Russ, SK will be rummaging around in the deepest recesses of your mind :nails:

Oh I think he already did that long since Spiral! :eyebrows:

Russ

The One
14th May 2014, 17:50
The Zodiac and Its Signs

IT is difficult for this age to estimate correctly the profound effect produced upon the religions, philosophies, and sciences of antiquity by the study of the planets, luminaries, and constellations. Not without adequate reason were the Magi of Persia called the Star Gazers. The Egyptians were honored with a special appellation because of their proficiency in computing the power and motion of the heavenly bodies and their effect upon the destinies of nations and individuals. Ruins of primitive astronomical observatories have been discovered in all parts of the world, although in many cases modern archæologists are unaware of the true purpose for which these structures were erected. While the telescope was unknown to ancient astronomers, they made many remarkable calculations with instruments cut from blocks of granite or pounded from sheets of brass and cop per. In India such instruments are still in use, and they posses a high degree of accuracy. In Jaipur, Rajputana, India, an observatory consisting largely of immense stone sundials is still in operation. The famous Chinese observatory on the wall of Peking consists of immense bronze instruments, including a telescope in the form of a hollow tube without lenses.

The pagans looked upon the stars as living things, capable of influencing the destinies of individuals, nations, and races. That the early Jewish patriarchs believed that the celestial bodies participated in the affairs of men is evident to any student of Biblical literature, as, for example, in the Book of Judges: "They fought from heaven, even the stars in their courses fought against Sisera." The Chaldeans, Phœnicians, Egyptians, Persians, Hindus, and Chinese all had zodiacs that were much alike in general character, and different authorities have credited each of these nations with being the cradle of astrology and astronomy. The Central and North American Indians also had an understanding of the zodiac, but the patterns and numbers of the signs differed in many details from those of the Eastern Hemisphere.

The word zodiac is derived from the Greek ζωδιακός (zodiakos), which means "a circle of animals," or, as some believe, "little animals." It is the name given by the old pagan astronomers to a band of fixed stars about sixteen degrees wide, apparently encircling the earth. Robert Hewitt Brown, 32°, states that the Greek word zodiakos comes from zo-on, meaning "an animal." He adds: "This latter word is compounded directly from the primitive Egyptian radicals, zo, life, and on, a being."

The Greeks, and later other peoples influenced by their culture, divided the band of the zodiac into twelve sections, each being sixteen degrees in width and thirty degrees in length. These divisions were called the Houses of the Zodiac. The sun during its annual pilgrimage passed through each of these in turn, Imaginary creatures were traced in the Star groups bounded by these rectangles; and because most of them were animal--or part animal--in form, they later became known as the Constellations, or Signs, of the Zodiac.

There is a popular theory concerning the origin of the zodiacal creatures to the effect that they were products of the imagination of shepherds, who, watching their flocks at night, occupied their minds by tracing the forms of animals and birds in the heavens. This theory is untenable, unless the "shepherds" be regarded as the shepherd priests of antiquity. It is unlikely that the zodiacal signs were derived from the star groups which they now represent. It is far more probable that the creatures assigned to the twelve houses are symbolic of the qualities and intensity of the sun's power while it occupies different parts of the zodiacal belt.

On this subject Richard Payne Knight writes: "The emblematical meaning, which certain animals were employed to signify, was only some particular property generalized; and, therefore, might easily be invented or discovered by the natural operation of the mind: but the collections of stars, named after certain animals, have no resemblance whatever to those animals; which are therefore merely signs of convention adopted to distinguish certain portions of the heavens, which were probably consecrated to those particular personified attributes, which they respectively represented." (The Symbolical Language of Ancient Art and Mythology.)

Some authorities are of the opinion that the zodiac was originally divided into ten (instead of twelve) houses, or "solar mansions." In early times there were two separate standards--one solar and the other lunar--used for the measurement of the months, years, and seasons. The solar year was composed of ten months of thirty-six days each, and five days sacred to the gods. The lunar year consisted of thirteen months of twenty-eight days each, with one day left over. The solar zodiac at that time consisted often houses of thirty-six degrees each.

The first six signs of the zodiac of twelve signs were regarded as benevolent, because the sun occupied them while traversing the Northern Hemisphere. The 6,000 years during which, according to the Persians, Ahura-Mazda ruled His universe in harmony and peace, were symbolic of these six signs. The second six were considered malevolent, because while the sun was traveling the Southern Hemisphere it was winter with the Greeks, Egyptians, and Persians. Therefore these six months symbolic of the 6,000 years of misery and suffering caused by the evil genius of the Persians, Ahriman, who sought to overthrow the power of Ahura-Mazda.

Those who hold the opinion that before its revision by the Greeks the zodiac consisted of only ten signs adduce evidence to show that Libra (the Scales) was inserted into the zodiac by dividing the constellation of Virgo Scorpio (at that time one sign) into two parts, thus establishing "the balance" at the point of equilibrium between the ascending northern and the descending southern signs. (See The Rosicrucians, Their Rites and Mysteries, by Hargrave Jennings.) On this subject Isaac Myer states: "We think that the Zodiacal constellations were first ten and represented an immense androgenic man or deity; subsequently this was changed, resulting in Scorpio and Virgo and making eleven; after this from Scorpio, Libra, the Balance, was taken, making the present twelve." (The Qabbalah.)

Each year the sun passes entirely around the zodiac and returns to the point from which it started--the vernal equinox--and each year it falls just a little short of making the complete circle of the heavens in the allotted period of time. As a result, it crosses the equator just a little behind the spot in the zodiacal sign where it crossed the previous year. Each sign of the zodiac consists of thirty degrees, and as the sun loses about one degree every seventy two years, it regresses through one entire constellation (or sign) in approximately 2,160 years, and through the entire zodiac in about [paragraph continues]



http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/secret_teachings/img/05300.jpg

CHART SHOWING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE HUMAN BODY AND THE EXTERIOR UNIVERSE.

From Kircher's Œdipus Ægyptiacus.

The ornamental border contains groups of names of animal, mineral, and vegetable substances, Their relationship to corresponding parts of the human body is shown by the dotted lines. The words in capital letters on the dotted lines indicate to what corporeal member, organ, or disease, the herb or other substance is related. The favorable positions in relation to the time of year are shown by the signs of the zodiac, each house of which is divided by crosses into its three decans. This influence is further emphasized by the series of planetary signs placed on either side of the figure.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/secret_teachings/img/05301.jpg

THE EQUINOXES AND SOLSTICES.

The plane of the zodiac intersects the celestial equator at an angle of approximately 23° 28'. The two points of intersection (A and B) are called the equinoxes.

25,920 years. (Authorities disagree concerning these figures.) This retrograde motion is called the precession of the equinoxes. This means that in the course of about 25,920 years, which constitute one Great Solar or Platonic Year, each one of the twelve constellations occupies a position at the vernal equinox for nearly 2,160 years, then gives place to the previous sign.

Among the ancients the sun was always symbolized by the figure and nature of the constellation through which it passed at the vernal equinox. For nearly the past 2,000 years the sun has crossed the equator at the vernal equinox in the constellation of Pisces (the Two Fishes). For the 2,160 years before that it crossed through the constellation of Aries (the Ram). Prior to that the vernal equinox was in the sign of Taurus (the Bull). It is probable that the form of the bull and the bull's proclivities were assigned to this constellation because the bull was used by the ancients to plow the fields, and the season set aside for plowing and furrowing corresponded to the time at which the sun reached the segment of the heavens named Taurus.

Albert Pike describes the reverence which the Persians felt for this sign and the method of astrological symbolism in vogue among them, thus: "In Zoroaster's cave of initiation, the Sun and Planets were represented, overhead, in gems and gold, as was also the Zodiac. The Sun appeared, emerging from the back of Taurus. " In the constellation of the Bull are also to be found the "Seven Sisters"--the sacred Pleiades--famous to Freemasonry as the Seven Stars at the upper end of the Sacred Ladder.

In ancient Egypt it was during this period--when the vernal equinox was in the sign of Taurus--that the Bull, Apis, was sacred to the Sun God, who was worshiped through the animal equivalent of the celestial sign which he had impregnated with his presence at the time of its crossing into the Northern Hemisphere. This is the meaning of an ancient saying that the celestial Bull "broke the egg of the year with his horns."

Sampson Arnold Mackey, in his Mythological Astronomy of the Ancients Demonstrated, makes note of two very interesting points concerning the bull in Egyptian symbolism. Mr. Mackey is of the opinion that the motion of the earth that we know as the alternation of the poles has resulted in a great change of relative position of the equator and the zodiacal band. He believes that originally the band of the zodiac was at right angles to the equator, with the sign of Cancer opposite the north pole and the sign of Capricorn opposite the south pole. It is possible that the Orphic symbol of the serpent twisted around the egg attempts to show the motion of the sun in relation to the earth under such conditions. Mr. Mackey advances the Labyrinth of Crete, the name Abraxas, and the magic formula, abracadabra, among other things, to substantiate his theory. Concerning abracadabra he states:

"But the slow progressive disappearance of the Bull is most happily commemorated in the vanishing series of letters so emphatically expressive of the great astronomical fact. For ABRACADABRA is The Bull, the only Bull. The ancient sentence split into its component parts stands thus: Ab'r-achad-ab'ra, i. e., Ab'r, the Bull; achad, the only, &c.--Achad is one of the names of the Sun, given him in consequence of his Shining ALONE,--he is the ONLY Star to be seen when he is seen--the remaining ab'ra, makes the whole to be, The Bull, the only Bull; while the repetition of the name omitting a letter, till all is gone, is the most simple, yet the most satisfactory method that could have been devised to preserve the memory of the fact; and the name of Sorapis, or Serapis, given to the Bull at the above ceremony puts it beyond all doubt. * * * This word (Abracadabra) disappears in eleven decreasing stages; as in the figure. And what is very remarkable, a body with three heads is folded up by a Serpent with eleven Coils, and placed by Sorapis: and the eleven Volves of the Serpent form a triangle similar to that formed by the ELEVEN diminishing lines of the abracadabra."

Nearly every religion of the world shows traces of astrological influence. The Old Testament of the Jews, its writings overshadowed by Egyptian culture, is a mass of astrological and astronomical allegories. Nearly all the mythology of Greece and Rome may be traced in star groups. Some writers are of the opinion that the original twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet were derived from groups of stars, and that the starry handwriting on the wall of the heavens referred to words spelt out, with fixed stars for consonants, and the planets, or luminaries, for vowels. These, coming into ever-different combinations, spelt words which, when properly read, foretold future events.

As the zodiacal band marks the pathway of the sun through the constellations, it results in the phenomena of the seasons. The ancient systems of measuring the year were based upon the equinoxes and the solstices. The year always began with the vernal equinox, celebrated March 21 with rejoicing to mark the moment when the sun crossed the equator northward up the zodiacal arc. The summer solstice was celebrated when the sun reached its most northerly position, and the day appointed was June 21. After that time the sun began to descend toward the equator, which it recrossed southbound at the autumnal equinox, September 21. The sun reached its most southerly position at the winter solstice, December 21.

Four of the signs of the zodiac have been permanently dedicated to the equinoxes and the solstices; and, while the signs no longer correspond with the ancient constellations to which they were assigned, and from which they secured their names, they are accepted by modern astronomers as a basis of calculation. The vernal equinox is therefore said to occur in the constellation of Aries (the Ram). It is fitting that of all beasts a Ram should be placed at the head of the heavenly flock forming the zodiacal band. Centuries before the Christian Era, the pagans revered this constellation. Godfrey Higgins states: "This constellation was called the 'Lamb of God.' He was also called the 'Savior,' and was said to save mankind from their sins. He was always honored with the appellation of 'Dominus' or 'Lord.' He was called the 'Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.' The devotees addressing him in their litany, constantly repeated the words, 'O Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world, have mercy upon us. Grant us Thy peace."' Therefore, the Lamb of God is a title given to the sun, who is said to be reborn every year in the Northern Hemisphere in the sign of the Ram, although, due to the existing discrepancy between the signs of the zodiac and the actual star groups, it actually rises in the sign of Pisces.

The summer solstice is regarded as occurring in Cancer (the Crab), which the Egyptians called the scarab--a beetle of the family Lamellicornes, the head of the insect kingdom, and sacred to the Egyptians as the symbol of Eternal Life. It is evident that the constellation of the Crab is represented by this peculiar creature because the sun, after passing through this house, proceeds to walk backwards, or descend the zodiacal arc. Cancer is the symbol of generation, for it is the house of the Moon, the great Mother of all things and the patroness of the life forces of Nature. Diana, the moon goddess of the Greeks, is called the Mother of the World. Concerning the worship of the feminine or maternal principle, Richard Payne Knight writes:

"By attracting or heaving the waters of the ocean, she naturally appeared to be the sovereign of humidity; and by seeming to operate so powerfully upon the constitutions of women, she equally appeared to be the patroness and regulatress of nutrition and passive generation: whence she is said to have received her nymphs, or subordinate personifications, from the ocean; and is often represented by the symbol of the sea crab, an animal that has the property of spontaneously detaching from its own body any limb that has been hurt or mutilated, and reproducing another in its place." (The Symbolical Language of Ancient Art and Mythology.) This water sign, being symbolic of the maternal principle of Nature, and recognized by the pagans as the origin of all life, was a natural and consistent domicile of the moon.

The autumnal equinox apparently occurs in the constellation of Libra (the Balances). The scales tipped and the solar globe began its pilgrimage toward the house of winter. The constellation of the Scales was placed in the zodiac to symbolize the power of choice, by means of which man may weigh one problem against another. Millions of years ago, when the human race was in the making, man was like the angels, who knew neither good nor evil. He fell into the state of the knowledge of good and evil when the gods gave him the seed for the mental nature. From man's mental reactions to his environments he distills the product of experience, which then aids him to regain his lost position plus an individualized intelligence. Paracelsus said: "The body comes from the elements, the soul from the stars, and the spirit from God. All that the intellect can conceive of comes from the stars [the spirits of the stars, rather than the material constellations]."

The constellation of Capricorn, in which the winter solstice theoretically takes place, was called The House of Death, for in winter all life in the Northern Hemisphere is at its lowest ebb. Capricorn is a composite creature, with the head and upper body of a goat and the tail of a fish. In this constellation the sun is least powerful

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THE MICROCOSM.

From Schotus' Margarita Philosophica.

The pagans believed that the zodiac formed the body of the Grand Man of the Universe. This body, which they called the Macrocosm (the Great World), was divided into twelve major parts, one of which was under the control of the celestial powers reposing in each of the zodiacal constellations. Believing that the entire universal system was epitomized in man's body, which they called the Microcosm (the Little World), they evolved that now familiar figure of "the cut-up man in the almanac" by allotting a sign of the zodiac to each of twelve major parts of the human body.

in the Northern Hemisphere, and after passing through this constellation it immediately begins to increase. Hence the Greeks said that Jupiter (a name of the Sun God) was suckled by a goat. A new and different sidelight on zodiacal symbolism is supplied by John Cole, in A Treatise on the Circular Zodiac of Tentyra, in Egypt: "The symbol therefore of the Goat rising from the body of a fish [Capricorn], represents with the greatest propriety the mountainous buildings of Babylon rising out of its low and marshy situation; the two horns of the Goat being emblematical of the two towns, Nineveh and Babylon, the former built on the Tigris, the latter on the Euphrates; but both subjected to one sovereignty."

The period of 2,160 years required for the regression of the sun through one of the zodiacal constellations is often termed an age. According to this system, the age secured its name from the sign through which the sun passes year after year as it crosses the equator at the vernal equinox. From this arrangement are derived the terms The Taurian Age, The Aryan Age, The Piscean Age, and The Aquarian Age. During these periods, or ages, religious worship takes the form of the appropriate celestial sign--that which the sun is said to assume as a personality in the same manner that a spirit assumes a body. These twelve signs are the jewels of his breastplate and his light shines forth from them, one after the other.

From a consideration of this system, it is readily understood why certain religious symbols were adopted during different ages of the earth's history; for during the 2,160 years the sun was in the constellation of Taurus, it is said that the Solar Deity assumed the body of Apis, and the Bull became sacred to Osiris. (For details concerning the astrological ages as related to Biblical symbolism, see The Message of the Stars by Max and Augusta Foss Heindel.) During the Aryan Age the Lamb was held sacred and the priests were called shepherds. Sheep and goats were sacrificed upon the altars, and a scapegoat was appointed to bear the sins of Israel.

During the Age of Pisces, the Fish was the symbol of divinity and the Sun God fed the multitude with two small fishes. The frontispiece of Inman's Ancient Faiths shows the goddess Isis with a fish on her head; and the Indian Savior God, Christna, in one of his incarnations was cast from the mouth of a fish.

Not only is Jesus often referred to as the Fisher of Men, but as John P. Lundy writes: "The word Fish is an abbreviation of this whole title, Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, and Cross; or as St. Augustine expresses it, 'If you join together the initial letters of the five Greek words, Ἰησοῦς Χριστος Θεου Υιὸσ Σωτήρ, which mean Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, they will make ΙΧΘΥΣ, Fish, in which word Christ is mystically understood, because He was able to live in the abyss of this mortality as in the depth of waters, that is, without sin.'" (Monumental Christianity.) Many Christians observe Friday, which is sacred to the Virgin (Venus), upon which day they shall eat fish and not meat. The sign of the fish was one of the earliest symbols of Christianity; and when drawn upon the sand, it informed one Christian that another of the same faith was near.

Aquarius is called the Sign of the Water Bearer, or the man with a jug of water on his shoulder mentioned in the New Testament. This is sometimes shown as an angelic figure, supposedly androgynous, either pouring water from an urn or carrying the vessel upon its shoulder. Among Oriental peoples, a water vessel alone is often used. Edward Upham, in his History and Doctrine of Budhism, describes Aquarius as being "in the shape of a pot and of a color between blue and yellow; this Sign is the single house of Saturn."

When Herschel discovered the planet Uranus (sometimes called by the name of its discoverer), the second half of the sign of Aquarius was allotted to this added member of the planetary family. The water pouring from the urn of Aquarius under the name of "the waters of eternal life" appears many times in symbolism. So it is with all the signs. Thus the sun in its path controls whatever form of worship man offers to the Supreme Deity.

There are two distinct systems of astrological philosophy. One of them, the Ptolemaic, is geocentric: the earth is considered the center of the solar system, around which the sun, moon, and planets revolve. Astronomically, the geocentric system is incorrect; but for thousands of years it has proved its accuracy when applied to the material nature of earthly things. A careful consideration of the writings of the great occultists and a study of their diagrams reveal the fact that many of them were acquainted with another method of arranging the heavenly bodies.

The other system of astrological philosophy is called the heliocentric. This posits the sun in the center of the solar system, where it naturally belongs, with the planets and their moons revolving about it. The great difficulty, however, with the heliocentric system is that, being comparatively new, there has not been sufficient time to experiment successfully and catalogue the effects of its various aspects and relationships. Geocentric astrology, as its name implies, is confined to the earthy side of nature, while heliocentric astrology may be used to analyze the higher intellectual and spiritual faculties of man.

The important point to be remembered is that when the sun was said to be in a certain sign of the zodiac, the ancients really meant that the sun occupied the opposite sign and cast its long ray into the house in which they enthroned it. Therefore, when it is said that the sun is in Taurus, it means (astronomically) that the sun is in the sign opposite to Taurus, which is Scorpio. This resulted in two distinct schools of philosophy: one geocentric and exoteric, the other heliocentric and esoteric. While the ignorant multitudes worshiped the house of the sun's reflection, which in the case described would be the Bull, the wise revered the house of the sun's actual dwelling, which would be the Scorpion, or the Serpent, the symbol of the concealed spiritual mystery. This sign has three different symbols. The most common is that of a Scorpion, who was called by the ancients the backbiter, being the symbol of deceit and perversion; the second (and less common) form of the sign is a Serpent, often used by the ancients to symbolize wisdom.

Probably the rarest form of Scorpio is that of an Eagle. The arrangement of the stars of the constellation bears as much resemblance to a flying bird as to a scorpion. Scorpio, being the sign of occult initiation, the flying eagle--the king of birds--represents the highest and most spiritual type of Scorpio, in which it transcends the venomous insect of the earth. As Scorpio and Taurus are opposite each other in the zodiac, their symbolism is often closely intermingled. The Hon. E. M. Plunket, in Ancient Calendars and Constellations, says: "The Scorpion (the constellation Scorpio of the Zodiac opposed to Taurus) joins with Mithras in his attack upon the Bull, and always the genii of the spring and autumn equinoxes are present in joyous and mournful attitudes."

The Egyptians, the Assyrians, and the Babylonians, who knew the sun as a Bull, called the zodiac a series of furrows, through which the great celestial Ox dragged the plow of the sun. Hence the populace offered up sacrifice and led through the streets magnificent steers, bedecked with flowers and surrounded with priests, dancing girls of the temple, and musicians. The philosophic elect did not participate in these idolatrous ceremonials, but advocated them as most suitable for the types of mind composing the mass of the population. These few possessed a far deeper understanding, as the Serpent of Scorpio upon their foreheads--the Uræus--bore witness.

The sun is often symbolized with its rays in the form of a shaggy mane. Concerning the Masonic significance of Leo, Robert Hewitt Brown, 32°, has written: "On the 21st of June, when the sun arrives at the summer solstice, the constellation Leo--being but 30° in advance of the sun--appears to be leading the way, and to aid by his powerful paw in lifting the sun up to the summit of the zodiacal arch. * * * This visible connection between the constellation Leo and the return of the sun to his place of power and glory, at the summit of the Royal Arch of heaven, was the principal reason why that constellation was held in such high esteem and reverence by the ancients. The astrologers distinguished Leo as the 'sole house of the sun,' and taught that the world was created when the sun was in that sign. 'The lion was adored in the East and the West by the Egyptians and the Mexicans. The chief Druid of Britain was styled a lion.'" (Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy.) When the Aquarian Age is thoroughly established, the sun will be in Leo, as will be noted from the explanation previously given in this chapter regarding the distinction between geocentric and heliocentric astrology. Then, indeed, will the secret religions of the world include once more the raising to initiation by the Grip of the Lion's Paw. (Lazarus will come forth.)

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THE CIRCULAR ZODIAC OF TENTYRA.

From Cole's Treatise--the Circular Zodiac of Tentyra, in Egypt.

The oldest circular zodiac known is the one found at Tentyra, in Egypt, and now in the possession of the French government. Mr. John Cole describes this remarkable zodiac as follows: "The diameter of the medallion in which the constellations are sculptured, is four feet nine inches, French measure. It is surrounded by another circle of much larger circumference, containing hieroglyphic characters; this second circle is enclosed in a square, whose sides are seven feet nine inches long. * * * The asterisms, constituting the Zodiacal constellations mixed with others, are represented in a spiral. The extremities of this spiral, after one revolution, are Leo and Cancer. Leo is no doubt at the head. It appears to be trampling on a serpent, and its tail to be held by a woman. Immediately after the Lion comes the Virgin holding an ear of corn, Further on, we perceive two scales of a balance, above which, in a medal lion, is the figure of Harpocrates. Then follows the Scorpion and Sagittarius, to whom the Egyptians gave wings, and two faces. After Sagittarius are successively placed, Capricornus, Aquarius, Pisces, the Ram, the Bull, and the Twins. This Zodiacal procession is, as we have already observed, terminated by Cancer, the Crab."

The antiquity of the zodiac is much in dispute. To contend that it originated but a mere few thousand years before the Christian Era is a colossal mistake on the part of those who have sought to compile data, concerning its origin. The zodiac necessarily must be ancient enough to go backward to that period when its signs and symbols coincided exactly with the positions of the constellations whose various creatures in their natural functions exemplified the outstanding features of the sun's activity during each of the twelve months. One author, after many years of deep study on the subject, believed man's concept of the zodiac to be at least five million years old. In all probability it is one of the many things for which the modem world is indebted to the Atlantean or the Lemurian civilizations. About ten thousand years before the Christian Era there was a period of many ages when knowledge of every kind was suppressed, tablets destroyed, monuments torn down, and every vestige of available material concerning previous civilizations completely obliterated. Only a few copper knives, some arrowheads, and crude carvings on the walls of caves bear mute witness of those civilizations which preceded this age of destruction. Here and there a few gigantic structures have remained which, like the strange monoliths on Easter Island, are evidence of lost arts and sciences and lost races. The human race is exceedingly old. Modern science counts its age in tens of thousands of years; occultism, in tens of millions. There is an old saying that "Mother Earth has shaken many civilizations from her back," and it is not beyond reason that the principles of astrology and astronomy were evolved millions of years before the first white man appeared.

The occultists of the ancient world had a most remarkable understanding of the principle of evolution. They recognized all life as being in various stages of becoming. They believed that grains of sand were in the process of becoming human in consciousness but not necessarily in form; that human creatures were in the process of becoming planets; that planets were in the process of becoming solar systems; and that solar systems were in the process of becoming cosmic chains; and so on ad infinitum. One of the stages between the solar system and the cosmic chain was called the zodiac; therefore they taught that at a certain time a solar system breaks up into a zodiac. The house of the zodiac become the thrones for twelve Celestial Hierarchies, or as certain of the ancients state, ten Divine Orders. Pythagoras taught that 10, or the unit of the decimal system, was the most perfect of all numbers, and he symbolized the number ten by the lesser tetractys, an arrangement of ten dots in the form of an upright triangle.

The early star gazers, after dividing the zodiac into its houses, appointed the three brightest scars in each constellation to be the joint rulers of that house. Then they divided the house into three sections of ten degrees each, which they called decans. These, in turn, were divided in half, resulting in the breaking up of the zodiac into seventy-two duodecans of five degrees each. Over each of these duodecans the Hebrews placed a celestial intelligence, or angel, and from this system, has resulted the Qabbalistic arrangement of the seventy-two sacred names, which correspond to the seventy-two flowers, knops, and almonds upon the seven-branched Candlestick of the Tabernacle, and the seventy-two men who were chosen from the Twelve Tribes to represent Israel.

The only two signs not already mentioned are Gemini and Sagittarius. The constellation of Gemini is generally represented as two small children, who, according to the ancients, were born out of eggs, possibly the ones that the Bull broke with his horns. The stories concerning Castor and Pollux, and Romulus and Remus, may be the result of amplifying the myths of these celestial Twins. The symbols of Gemini have passed through many modifications. The one used by the Arabians was the peacock. Two of the important stars in the constellation of Gemini still bear the names of Castor and Pollux. The sign of Gemini is supposed to have been the patron of phallic worship, and the two obelisks, or pillars, in front of temples and churches convey the same symbolism as the Twins.

The sign of Sagittarius consists of what the ancient Greeks called a centaur--a composite creature, the lower half of whose body was in the form of a horse, while the upper half was human. The centaur is generally shown with a bow and arrow in his hands, aiming a shaft far off into the stars. Hence Sagittarius stands for two distinct principles: first, it represents the spiritual evolution of man, for the human form is rising from the body of the beast; secondly, it is the symbol of aspiration and ambition, for as the centaur aims his arrow at the stars, so every human creature aims at a higher mark than he can reach.

Albert Churchward, in The Signs and Symbols of Primordial Man, sums up the influence of the zodiac upon religious symbolism in the following words: "The division here [is] in twelve parts, the twelve signs of the Zodiac, twelve tribes of Israel, twelve gates of heaven mentioned in Revelation, and twelve entrances or portals to be passed through in the Great Pyramid, before finally reaching the highest degree, and twelve Apostles in the Christian doctrines, and the twelve original and perfect points in Masonry."

The ancients believed that the theory of man's being made in the image of God was to be understood literally. They maintained that the universe was a great organism not unlike the human body, and that every phase and function of the Universal Body had a correspondence in man. The most precious Key to Wisdom that the priests communicated to the new initiates was what they termed the law of analogy. Therefore, to the ancients, the study of the stars was a sacred science, for they saw in the movements of the celestial bodies the ever-present activity of the Infinite Father.

The Pythagoreans were often undeservedly criticized for promulgating the so-called doctrine of metempsychosis, or the transmigration of souls. This concept as circulated among the uninitiated was merely a blind, however, to conceal a sacred truth. Greek mystics believed that the spiritual nature of man descended into material existence from the Milky Way--the seed ground of souls--through one of the twelve gates of the great zodiacal band. The spiritual nature was therefore said to incarnate in the form of the symbolic creature created by Magian star gazers to represent the various zodiacal constellations. If the spirit incarnated through the sign of Aries, it was said to be born in the body of a ram; if in Taurus, in the body of the celestial bull. All human beings were thus symbolized by twelve mysterious creatures through the natures of which they were able to incarnate into the material world. The theory of transmigration was not applicable to the visible material body of man, but rather to the invisible immaterial spirit wandering along the pathway of the stars and sequentially assuming in the course of evolution the forms of the sacred zodiacal animals.

In the Third Book of the Mathesis of Julius Firmicus Maternus appears the following extract concerning the positions of the heavenly bodies at the time of the establishment of the inferior universe: "According to Æsculapius, therefore, and Anubius, to whom especially the divinity Mercury committed the secrets of the astrological science, the geniture of the world is as follows: They constituted the Sun in the 15th part of Leo, the Moon in the 15th part of Cancer, Saturn in the 15th part of Capricorn, Jupiter in the 15th part of Sagittary, Mars in the 15th part of Scorpio, Venus in the 15th part of Libra, Mercury in the 15th part of Virgo, and the Horoscope in the 15th part of Cancer. Conformably to this geniture, therefore, to these conditions of the stars, and the testimonies which they adduce in confirmation of this geniture, they are of opinion that the destinies of men, also, are disposed in accordance with the above arrangement, as maybe learnt from that book of Æsculapius which is called Μυριογενεσις, (i.e. Ten Thousand, or an innumerable multitude of Genitures) in order that nothing in the several genitures of men may be found to be discordant with the above-mentioned geniture of the world." The seven ages of man are under the control of the planets in the following order: infancy, the moon; childhood, Mercury; adolescence, Venus; maturity, the sun; middle age, Mars; advanced age, Jupiter; and decrepitude and dissolution, Saturn.

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HIEROGLYPHIC PLAN, By HERMES, OF THE ANCIENT ZODIAC.

From Kircher's Œdipus Ægyptiacus.

The inner circle contains the hieroglyph of Hemphta, the triform and pantamorphic deity. In the six concentric bands surrounding the inner circle are (from within outward):

(1) the numbers of the zodiacal houses in figures and also in words;
(2) the modern names of the houses.
(3) the Greek or the Egyptian names of the Egyptian deities assigned to the houses;
(4) the complete figures of these deities;
(5) the ancient or the modem zodiacal signs, sometimes both;
(6) the number of decans or subdivisions of the houses.

This information was obtained from here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/secret_teachings/sta12.htm)