Why isn't religion spiritual?

[Emil El Zapato]

This thread is intended to examine 'spirituality'. My own interest revolves around 'religion' and why social justice warriors won't broach the subject ... :) There's a hook in there, so be careful.

https://www.ushistory.org/us/images/00034650.jpg

My own example is my interpretation of the supposed admonitions of biblical text against race mixing. My instinct of those formed long ago and goes like this: The notion of it came into being because of ancient racial memories regarding a diversity of proto-humans ... Neanderthal, Denisovans, etc. But that was before i had a name for them. So, of course, those scientific revelations only bolstered my ongoing sense that I'm ALWAYS right ... :) Anyway ... enjoy your spirituality not religion.

My real intent was to pursue hermeneutics in general but I couldn't find a good starting image ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPP3hJFj7z0

[Wind]

When it comes to any religion, I've always had a problem with them because of dogma. I think all of them contain the deep truth about God and nature of life, but often it's very shrouded in whatever form and also there's a lot disinfo and false teachings mixed with it. I hate it when religion becomes a political tool. I'm still part of the Christian Church and I do revere Christ in my own way, not in the way someone else tells me as they don't know what I've experienced, but even then I've always found something like Buddhism far more closer to me with it's idea. Yet I wouldn't want to say that I'm a Buddhist either. I like to examine and understand religions, but the key point is spirituality and I don't need a religion for that. All of those religions do point to one single truth and reality.

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[Emil El Zapato]

I think that Ken Wilber would certainly agree that we have to integrate the notion of religion and spirituality from all sources. It is the meta again, it is where the truth resides. Much as God is hidden in the quantum reality within Planck's constant.

[Aragorn]

I think that Ken Wilber would certainly agree that we have to integrate the notion of religion and spirituality from all sources. It is the meta again, it is where the truth resides. Much as God is hidden in the quantum reality within Planck's constant.

I thought he was hiding in the Higgs boson. :p

[Emil El Zapato]

hmm, I'll have to think about that one. The problem is I've always felt that I could not believe in the Higgs boson until I could see it. :)

[Aragorn]

hmm, I'll have to think about that one. The problem is I've always felt that I could not believe in the Higgs boson until I could see it. :)

Well, they called it the God Particle for a reason. :p






A Higgs boson is sitting at the bar, enjoying a drink when suddenly the phone rings. So he says to the bartender...


"If that's a scientist, tell him you haven't seen me."


:ha:

[Emil El Zapato]

aaaaa lol, that's a good one. That goes on my list of favorite jokes that make people go hmmm. I just love those.

[Emil El Zapato]

2470

[Dreamtimer]

I picked this thread because I find its baseline question relevant. After watching the video Octopus Garden posted in Gio's thread, I looked further and found this video about the Hasidim. I've known Orthodox Jews and I've written about it here. My favorite story about a Hasidic Jew centered around a man who wanted to have a music career and named himself Curly Oxide. I loved the story. He struggled, but ended up marrying the girl his mother found for him. The man who produced the story was privileged to be inside the community, including for a marriage, which he never would have been otherwise.

The elements standing out to me in this story here address the title question, is there spirituality? Early in the video, a man describes labor as easy when you know you're carrying diamonds and not just rocks. Another compares the gifts of their heritage to gold and silver objects which need to be polished.

I find the metaphors of wealth to be revealing. The spirit has no need for diamonds, gold or silver.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8Dkccqm8oY

The violence of a whole community towards a girl is really shocking to me. I understand how deep the mentality goes, whether it's orthodoxy or scientology, and it remains shocking.

And the current move here in the US to control peoples' behavior and undermine rights to privacy are quite disturbing.

I hope folks are paying attention rather than falling for the hype about leaks or some other distraction.

[Dreamtimer]

At 32:38, "It's as if they wrote their own Bible." I'd say it's exactly that. And sadly, it's not just that community. Beware those who tell you they KNOW what's right or who's a (fill-in-the-blank).

[sourcetruth]

While there is a great amount of wisdom and knowledge in religions, and I respect religions for that, many religions are closed off to different ways of thinking about the same thing, and new ideas. They don't understand different paths of spirituality and spiritual exploration besides the path that they have.

[Dreamtimer]

The father, pictured in the video image, discusses with his sons his hope of them coming back into the fold. They give him logical and experiential arguments. He gives them metaphors, similes, homilies, parables, etc. He has a response for whatever they say. Most seem to be warnings about the dangers of the outside world/leaving the fold.

The father's bottom line is that you have one life here, maybe 120 years, and that's it. It's about serving God. And then it's the eternal afterwards. I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things. Especially 613 commandments and the thousands of others in the Talmud and the Torah.

In a different video, a rabbi describe the outside world as degenerate and outsiders as 'looking down on them'. I'm not sure how he would know that when he doesn't go into the outside world, doesn't know what they think or feel. It's quite a judgement to call people degenerate when you don't know their lives.

But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.

In this video, the older son struggles with breaking the line of heritage. The younger doesn't. I feel for the older son and I feel for the father who is seeing his lineage fall. (even though I don't personally believe his lineage falls. His genes continue and his family continues. But, to him, if it's outside of their tradition it doesn't count).

This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.

[Emil El Zapato]

The father, pictured in the video image, discusses with his sons his hope of them coming back into the fold. They give him logical and experiential arguments. He gives them metaphors, similes, homilies, parables, etc. He has a response for whatever they say. Most seem to be warnings about the dangers of the outside world/leaving the fold.

The father's bottom line is that you have one life here, maybe 120 years, and that's it. It's about serving God. And then it's the eternal afterwards. I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things. Especially 613 commandments and the thousands of others in the Talmud and the Torah.

In a different video, a rabbi describe the outside world as degenerate and outsiders as 'looking down on them'. I'm not sure how he would know that when he doesn't go into the outside world, doesn't know what they think or feel. It's quite a judgement to call people degenerate when you don't know their lives.

But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.

In this video, the older son struggles with breaking the line of heritage. The younger doesn't. I feel for the older son and I feel for the father who is seeing his lineage fall. (even though I don't personally believe his lineage falls. His genes continue and his family continues. But, to him, if it's outside of their tradition it doesn't count).

This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.

Orthodox Jews, I suppose failed to understand the new covenant brought by Jesus, who in my estimation says it all. The number one principle put forth was 'spiritual generosity'. Christian conservatives always fall back to the old testament with all its 'wrath' which is really just a reflection of ancient culture, hence, in that regard is more Jewish than Christian and actually it is the same with Muslims. All conservatives, of course. A different human subspecies.

[Fred Steeves]

But I find that it's easy for very religious people to judge others, even when their scriptures say that they shouldn't. It's a human weakness made worse under these circumstances.

I remember hearing "hate the sin but love the sinner" before being old enough to decide for myself whether religion was or wasn't for me. Of course that was Christianity not Judaism, and evangelical at that, but even so, religion in general sure like to scan the horizon for no no's committed by the unforgiven.


This is when I start to think that the 'god' they worship is not God at all. Perhaps just a lower entity who likes such devotees. Every aspect of life is controlled. Lack of freedom of expression is unhealthy, and communities become unhealthy. The sort of deity who likes that is not the highest sort, imo.

That's it 100%. My eyes practically roll back in my head when listening to the occasional hell fire and brimstone Sunday morning preacher, when they inevitably start throwing roses at the feet of Yahweh, the supposed great creator god of anger and vengeance. For all I know this may be an actual being, but he sure as hell ain't no being who created the universe and all life within it. More like on the magician scale, operating within what's already there, and taking advantage of lesser beings.


All conservatives, of course. A different human subspecies.

Speaking of hate the sin but loving the sinner, this is more the way Yahweh would look at "the others", with total disdain and contempt. Yeshua would of course advise the exact opposite.

[Aragorn]

I don't believe that we have just one life. I believe that we reincarnate. One life isn't enough to learn all the things.

Multiple misconceptions there, Sister. :p

First of all, we are not here to learn. We are here to experience, which is a different thing. Furthermore, given that we all come from the same source, we are all one, and as such, what is experienced by every individual will ultimately feed back into the Creator Consciousness.

Secondly, time is not what we experience it to be while dwelling here on this rock in our meatsuit. There are over seven billion living human beings on this planet in this day, and as we are all one, we are all everyone else — at least, consciouswise — and we will all be able to tap into the experiences had by everyone else.

Reincarnation is real, but it is neither a necessity nor a rule. Those who reincarnate are doing so out of their own volition. Some come back because of unfinished business, or to right a wrong — e.g. they were murdered and they want to come back in order to expose the killer. Most who come back do so simply because they can't get enough of the human experience.

Greek mythology had an interesting take on the phenomenon. Upon passing over into Hades, souls were given a choice. They could either accept the painful memories of their own mistakes and enter the Greek equivalent of heaven, or they could reject those memories and drink the water of one of the rivers of Hades — I forgot its name — which made them forget who they were, and then they would be reborn with a blank conscience. ;)

[Wind]

First of all, we are not here to learn. We are here to experience, which is a different thing.

According to many sources it would be both. We are here to learn and to experience.

I think the golden rule is the basic tenet of all religions. We are all basically One, that's why I find oneness and nondualism so interesting.

What you do to another being, you essentially do that to yourself. Only our personalities, egos gives us our individuality and sense of separateness, but on a more profound level we are all connected, we just don't feel or see that on this level fully. On this level we might intellectually understand the concept of oneness, but it's another thing to fully live that by transcending the boundaries of the personal little me, while giving more room for the soul or the higher self to shine through your own being as a human. As a whole humanity is still very far away from that kind of a transcendental or elevated state of consciousness as we obviously can see how much disharmony there is on the planet. I think it's mainly for the reason that the spiritual development is not very advanced around here and perhaps there has been some misguidance too. This planet with it's peoples is a very mixed bag when it comes to different kind of consciousnesses or souls incarnated as humans, if you will. Most of course are probably quite human in their origin and primitive in that sense or younger souls.

http://www.scarboromissions.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/item_34_lg.jpg

[Emil El Zapato]

I remember hearing "hate the sin but love the sinner" before being old enough to decide for myself whether religion was or wasn't for me. Of course that was Christianity not Judaism, and evangelical at that, but even so, religion in general sure like to scan the horizon for no no's committed by the unforgiven.



That's it 100%. My eyes practically roll back in my head when listening to the occasional hell fire and brimstone Sunday morning preacher, when they inevitably start throwing roses at the feet of Yahweh, the supposed great creator god of anger and vengeance. For all I know this may be an actual being, but he sure as hell ain't no being who created the universe and all life within it. More like on the magician scale, operating within what's already there, and taking advantage of lesser beings.



Speaking of hate the sin but loving the sinner, this is more the way Yahweh would look at "the others", with total disdain and contempt. Yeshua would of course advise the exact opposite.

I'm thinking I'm having a deja vu vu moment, how does that factor into religion and spirituality. Talking about doubletalk I don't let others' interpretations about any God/god mess with my head... Faith is all I need. We all should know by nature and character the difference between good and not so good. Fire and brimstone? Ok, if you lived 3,000 years ago when Lions were snacking on Jesus' followers but it just doesn't apply. One tries to 'guide' those that they are emotionally and morally invested in, beyond that ... I hate liars, cheats (thieves are ok), and degenerates that think they have the right to pass judgment on anyone else AND ACT TO DO SO! I have never passed judgment, I only express my disgust and hope the degenerates find their way to a better philosophy even though it is highly unlikely that they will. Subspecies you know, will have their way.

[Aragorn]

Fire and brimstone? Ok, if you lived 3,000 years ago when Lions were snacking on Jesus' followers but it just doesn't apply.

Are you sure you're not off by about 1'000 years? :eyebrows:

[Emil El Zapato]

Give or take a thousand, but it had been going on for a good while before Jesus showed up. :)

[Fred Steeves]

I have never passed judgment, I only express my disgust and hope the degenerates find their way to a better philosophy even though it is highly unlikely that they will. Subspecies you know, will have their way.

A quote from Master Yeshua comes to mind:

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". (Luke 23:34)

[Aragorn]

Fire and brimstone? Ok, if you lived 3,000 years ago when Lions were snacking on Jesus' followers but it just doesn't apply.

Are you sure you're not off by about 1'000 years? :eyebrows:

Give or take a thousand, but it had been going on for a good while before Jesus showed up. :)

So you're saying that the Romans were casting Yeshua's followers before the lions 1'000 years before Yeshua showed up? And was that before or after Adolf Hitler defeated Napoleon? :D

Now there's some interesting historical revisionism I hadn't seen before. Maybe Aianawa can learn something new here. :ttr:

[Emil El Zapato]

lol, I haven't lost it yet Master Aragorn, I'm saying violence was a cultural norm for many thousands of years. Humans reflected 'God' in their image despite there not being any correlation between the two. Jesus an enlightened and divine spirit showed us a better way. Jesus' heart came to some and others still did not get it and still do not get it. And some will never get it. Many will never get it.

[Dreamtimer]

You have a point, Chuckie.

We were just in Scotland. One place we visited was called the Devil's well. It's a deep valley surrounded by hills. The Johnstons, know as the devils, would steal cattle and take it to this valley. They were brutal and you didn't follow them into the Devil's well because you're throat would be slit.

In those days, if you didn't steal, if you didn't kill, you were suspect. There was something wrong with you. People wouldn't trust you.

It was different times and a harsh life.

When I hear people bitch and moan today about their poor feelings I wonder how much of history they even know.

[Dreamtimer]

Wind, I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again. What you posted is just like something I saw as a little girl in Arizona in the Sunday paper. It was a list of symbols with a version of the Golden Rule found in every religion. It was a kind of revelation to me. I told my parents in great excitement and they informed me that it was a good idea but that most people wouldn't believe it or even like it because they feel like they're special in their religion.

I still hold to that inspiration because the Golden Rule is the bottom line. Other folks will catch up eventually.

[Wind]

Religions shouldn't be divisive, they should connect us to the divine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr7MM6GLWM). Anything else is just nonsense.

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Richard Rohr, as a Catholic priest and Franciscan Friar, will offer a concise history of how Western Christianity once had, soon lost, tried to retrieve, and now is roundly rediscovering its own traditional understanding of unitive consciousness (which was our word for non-dual thinking). The Christian contemplative mind was usually a subtext, and yet it was always clearly there too, and much closer to the surface, but only for those exposed to the mystical base that was revealed in the Gospel of John, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, the Celtic and monastic traditions, and what was generally referred to as the apophatic or wisdom stream of Christianity. These were our many saints and mystics. This possibility was brought to the fore by Thomas Merton in the middle of the last century, and is now flowing in many positive directions. It is now our task to rediscover the pre-Enlightenment Christianity that reveled in "the cloud of unknowing", what some called "learned ignorance", and the very notion of Mystery itself. Only when we got into competition with rationalism and secularism, did we adopt this rather recent mania for certitude and a very limited kind of scientific knowing. Almost the entire history of Protestantism emerged in this period, and thus the contemplative mind is an utterly new revelation for them, and frankly for all of us, as we again learn to be comfortable living on the edge of both the knowable and the unknown.

[Emil El Zapato]

Religions shouldn't be divisive, they should connect us to the divine. Anything else is just nonsense.


I almost clapped with the crowd ... :)

[Wind]

Religions shouldn't be divisive, they should connect us to the divine. Anything else is just nonsense.

I almost clapped with the crowd ... :)

You liked the video?

[Emil El Zapato]

You liked the video?

yeah, it was great...the Catholic priest. I agree with him very strongly. A man after my own heart. Open, honest, seems like a truly good human being.

[Wind]

yeah, it was great...the Catholic priest. I agree with him very strongly. A man after my own heart. Open, honest, seems like a truly good human being.

I will soon loan his book about the universal Christ, he has written a few.

[Emil El Zapato]

I will soon loan his book about the universal Christ, he has written a few.

Interesting ... is likely a good read ... I have been too busy to read lately, I need to make time. I feel myself getting dumber as I tipe. :)

[Dreamtimer]

Dumb and Dumber?

The idea that we're all children of God takes away the targets for those who believe they're saved and special. The fact that people jump to the accusation of pantheism without thinking is, again, a sign that they lack the desire to understand.

We have a great number of Christians here who are ready to judge others, despite the admonishments in the Bible to not do so. And they hurl the worst accusations of all with no evidence, namely pedophilia and the rest which I won't repeat because it's disgusting.

(I learned on our visit to Scotland in April that the same kinds of rumors used to be spread. It's just old and ugly propaganda)

People up in their ivory towers of salvation become tools of the devil, who just loves the division.

Religion isn't spiritual because it's a power structure. If we got rid of that part of it, the spiritual energies could come to the forefront.