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turiya
5th November 2018, 19:14
Anger is a Small Thing - Its just our habit to exaggerate.

http://www.tergarasia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/meditation04.jpg

Anger Is a Small Thing


How can I be aware during strong emotions? My anger feels like thousands of wild horses are running away with me!


"Anger is a very small thing. If you can just wait and watch, you will not find “thousands of wild horses.” If you can find even a small donkey, that will be enough! Just watch it and it will go, slowly. It will enter from this side and will go out from the other side. You just have to keep a little patience not to ride on it.

Anger, jealousy, envy, greed, competitiveness...all our problems are very small, but our ego magnifies them, makes them as big as it can.

The ego cannot do otherwise; its anger has also to be great. By its great anger, and great misery, and great greed, and great ambition it becomes great.

But you are not the ego, you are only a watcher. Just stand by the side and let all the thousands of horses pass – let us see how long it takes for them to pass. There is no need to be worried. As they come – they are wild – they will go. But we don’t miss even a small donkey; we immediately jump on it! You don’t need thousands of wild horses. Just a small thing, and you are full of anger and fire. You will laugh about it later on, at how stupid you were.

If you can watch, without getting involved, as if it is something on the screen of a movie house or of a TV screen...something is passing; watch it. You are not supposed to do anything to prevent it, to repress it, to destroy it, to pull out a sword and kill it, because from where will you get the sword? – from the same source as the anger is coming.

It is all imagination.

Just watch, and don’t do anything – for or against.

And you will be surprised: that which was looking very big, becomes very, very small.
But our habit is to exaggerate."

More @ this LINK (https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/emotional-ecology/anger-is-a-small-thing)

Melidae
5th November 2018, 19:57
Just a slight disagreement with the article...

Anger is like a warning light going off...warning you of something inside yourself that needs attention. Acknowledge it. Examine it. Look at it from as many sides as possible. What exactly has made you so angry...and why. What is it about what has been said or done that has triggered anger within. It could be your pride has been hurt...or a hidden fear has been awakened. It could be a myriad of things.

Don't turn away! Look within, not without...for that is where the answer is found. Then clean up the mess as best you can...inner work. It can be painful...looking at our own faults in the hidden places...but it is how we heal and grow.

Fred Steeves
5th November 2018, 22:10
Just a slight disagreement with the article...

Anger is like a warning light going off...warning you of something inside yourself that needs attention. Acknowledge it. Examine it. Look at it from as many sides as possible. What exactly has made you so angry...and why. What is it about what has been said or done that has triggered anger within. It could be your pride has been hurt...or a hidden fear has been awakened. It could be a myriad of things.

Don't turn away! Look within, not without...for that is where the answer is found. Then clean up the mess as best you can...inner work. It can be painful...looking at our own faults in the hidden places...but it is how we heal and grow.

All good stuff Melidae, my Buddha within bows deeply to careful and thorough self examination.

Would you agree though that there is such a difference as useful anger, and non useful anger? Certainly if one is say, angry at the whole world in general because of built up, and unprocessed inner shit, that is not useful in the least.

But now what about if say, you come across someone physically hurting a loved one? Might the immediate action taken to end the situation because of that flash of anger, be considered a useful anger?

Aragorn
5th November 2018, 22:56
All good stuff Melidae, my Buddha within bows deeply to careful and thorough self examination.

Would you agree though that there is such a difference as useful anger, and non useful anger? Certainly if one is say, angry at the whole world in general because of built up, and unprocessed inner shit, that is not useful in the least.

But now what about if say, you come across someone physically hurting a loved one? Might the immediate action taken to end the situation because of that flash of anger, be considered a useful anger?

Your question was not directed at me, Hermano Frederico, but if my perspective might be welcomed, then I would say that anger definitely has its purpose in Creation. I do not see anger as coming from the ego, but rather as an energy buildup originating from dissonance.

It is however imperative to understand the cause(s) of the dissonance. In the example you cited above, the anger is both useful and justified. :hmm:

Melidae
5th November 2018, 22:59
All good stuff Melidae, my Buddha within bows deeply to careful and thorough self examination.

Would you agree though that there is such a difference as useful anger, and non useful anger? Certainly if one is say, angry at the whole world in general because of built up, and unprocessed inner shit, that is not useful in the least.

But now what about if say, you come across someone physically hurting a loved one? Might the immediate action taken to end the situation because of that flash of anger, be considered a useful anger?

I've never considered anger as being anything other than anger, and useful feedback to something that is going on within.

I will need a think on useful/non-useful anger...(righteous anger?)

As for your example...I lived it, having an ex-husband who was extremely abusive to my children and myself. I was not aware of any emotion when my intervention was needed. I did what was necessary to save my children from attack...as well as myself. I fought back always...something that most likely saved our lives according to the therapist I sought help from when I could no longer take any kind of control of situations. There's something about having a gun in your face that says things have gone too far, fear of what would happen if I left be damned. I needed help to get us out...I asked for it...and received it...and will always be grateful for the love and support we received along the way.

I must add that I have always been the kind of person who, when crisis occurs, automatically/unconsciously sets all emotions aside and does what is required at the time, when a clear mind is needed most. When the crisis is over and I am alone, the emotions come pouring out. You cannot think clearly when emotional...at least I cannot.

Great post, Fred.

Chris
5th November 2018, 23:19
Your question was not directed at me, Hermano Frederico, but if my perspective might be welcomed, then I would say that anger definitely has its purpose in Creation. I do not see anger as coming from the ego, but rather as an energy buildup originating from dissonance.

It is however imperative to understand the cause(s) of the dissonance. In the example you cited above, the anger is both useful and justified. :hmm:

I had the same thought as I was reading this thread. Anger is an energy of sorts, though it does have its own particular vibration. We express that vibratory frequency with colour references, such as "seeing red" or with flow metaphors, like "seething with rage" or "bottled-up anger". It is definitely something that flows, like a liquid energy. We can feel it build up and then slowly dissipate. One of the hardest things to learn is to keep this anger in check and be in control of it in any given situation, releasing it only when it is absolutely necessary, such as when you or your loved ones are being physically attacked. I agree that it is a necessary component of life, in fact survival in a harsh environment demands it. Righteous anger and rage can be a powerful force, making the wielder of this energetic weapon quite unstoppable.

In nature, honey badgers are known for defeating and repelling much larger foes, such as lions, simply through their angry and dogged nature (they are also tough physically, but half the battle is won psychologically). Mothers protecting their cubs are given a wide berth by most predators, because they know instinctively how fierce a mother can be when protecting their offspring, these are all examples of righteous anger, when it actually serves as a very effective weapon.

Fred Steeves
6th November 2018, 00:19
As for your example...I lived it, having an ex-husband who was extremely abusive to my children and myself. I was not aware of any emotion when my intervention was needed. I did what was necessary to save my children from attack...as well as myself. I fought back always...

Whew... Well first off, now I may know the source of the great strength I see in you.

The portion I highlighted digs right into one aspect of what I was contemplating before responding to your earlier post: "Where is the dividing line between anger, and action?"


I must add that I have always been the kind of person who, when crisis occurs, automatically/unconsciously sets all emotions aside and does what is required at the time, when a clear mind is needed most. When the crisis is over and I am alone, the emotions come pouring out. You cannot think clearly when emotional...at least I cannot.

I'm the exact same way. So is my wife of 20 years.

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2018, 00:28
http://www.tergarasia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/meditation04.jpg

Anger Is a Small Thing


How can I be aware during strong emotions? My anger feels like thousands of wild horses are running away with me!


"Anger is a very small thing. If you can just wait and watch, you will not find “thousands of wild horses.” If you can find even a small donkey, that will be enough! Just watch it and it will go, slowly. It will enter from this side and will go out from the other side. You just have to keep a little patience not to ride on it.

Anger, jealousy, envy, greed, competitiveness...all our problems are very small, but our ego magnifies them, makes them as big as it can.

The ego cannot do otherwise; its anger has also to be great. By its great anger, and great misery, and great greed, and great ambition it becomes great.

But you are not the ego, you are only a watcher. Just stand by the side and let all the thousands of horses pass – let us see how long it takes for them to pass. There is no need to be worried. As they come – they are wild – they will go. But we don’t miss even a small donkey; we immediately jump on it! You don’t need thousands of wild horses. Just a small thing, and you are full of anger and fire. You will laugh about it later on, at how stupid you were.

If you can watch, without getting involved, as if it is something on the screen of a movie house or of a TV screen...something is passing; watch it. You are not supposed to do anything to prevent it, to repress it, to destroy it, to pull out a sword and kill it, because from where will you get the sword? – from the same source as the anger is coming.

It is all imagination.

Just watch, and don’t do anything – for or against.

And you will be surprised: that which was looking very big, becomes very, very small.
But our habit is to exaggerate."

More @ this LINK (https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/emotional-ecology/anger-is-a-small-thing)

Interesting, I was just hearing that's the way recruitment to various fringe organizations is conducted. Bombard with propaganda then step 2 is to start providing links. So far, you're earning your money, Turiya...you're right on track.


I've never considered anger as being anything other than anger, and useful feedback to something that is going on within.

I will need a think on useful/non-useful anger...(righteous anger?)

As for your example...I lived it, having an ex-husband who was extremely abusive to my children and myself. I was not aware of any emotion when my intervention was needed. I did what was necessary to save my children from attack...as well as myself. I fought back always...something that most likely saved our lives according to the therapist I sought help from when I could no longer take any kind of control of situations. There's something about having a gun in your face that says things have gone too far, fear of what would happen if I left be damned. I needed help to get us out...I asked for it...and received it...and will always be grateful for the love and support we received along the way.

I must add that I have always been the kind of person who, when crisis occurs, automatically/unconsciously sets all emotions aside and does what is required at the time, when a clear mind is needed most. When the crisis is over and I am alone, the emotions come pouring out. You cannot think clearly when emotional...at least I cannot.

Great post, Fred.

Been there, done that...I suppose the one difference was that my first instinct was to kill... :)

Melidae
6th November 2018, 00:59
I had the same thought as I was reading this thread. Anger is an energy of sorts, though it does have its own particular vibration. We express that vibratory frequency with colour references, such as "seeing red" or with flow metaphors, like "seething with rage" or "bottled-up anger". It is definitely something that flows, like a liquid energy.

Wow, I guess today is my day to open up and reveal things about myself that I may not be proud of. I do this in hopes someone may benefit from the telling.

Anger has a vibration and frequency...never thought of it before, but it is so true. Thanks, Chris.

In my teenage years (back in the dark ages...haha) I would be in the middle of an argument and at some point my vision would become totally red. I used to say that I would "red out"...like blacking out but seeing red. When the color would dissipate, I would find myself saying the meanest, most vicious things to the person I was arguing with. Having a Scorpio ascendent, I could see a persons weakest points...and during a rage, would hit every one of those points just to hurt. I was about 17 years old the last time I saw red. I hurt someone I loved dearly...someone who understood I needed to get it out no matter how much it hurt him. The words were worse than physical blows...the physical can heal...words cannot be taken back.

That seems like a lifetime ago and like it happened to someone else. But that was me then. It was the catalyst for the inner work I've been doing ever since.

I've learned I can be a powerful force without anger...righteous or not.

Melidae
6th November 2018, 01:15
Thanks, Fred.

I think the key is in doing what is necessary, no matter what. Things done in anger, righteous or not, can get out of hand too easily. Whether it be considered a justifiable act or not, it is too easy to lose control of a situation when angry... which could possibly be used against you.

No regrets. I do inner work so when I leave this world, I can honestly say I've done everything I can to have no regrets. Mistakes? Yeah, I've made way too many of them. They are learning tools to help ourselves and others.

turiya
6th November 2018, 02:14
The is nothing wrong with Anger.

http://www.curezone.org/upload/_T_Forums/Turiya_Files_/AVALON/TRUMP/FLYNN_DEEPSTA/WILLAIM_BLAKE_ENERGY_IS_DELIGHT1.png

Anger is energy. It needs a movement. Emotional energy needs expression. It is not intended to be stagnant or stagnated. That's what the word 'e-motion' means. Emotional energy needs to move. Emotional energy needs expression. Preventing it from doing so, is masochism. 'Controlling' it, holding it, preventing it from being expressed is a road to ruin.

Preventing it from being expressed, this is done so that it is not seen by others. So others will not be disturbed by it. So society can go on its merry way, looking good, looking civilized. While the one holding onto anger, holds it inside oneself, so nobody sees it. So nobody is effected by it. This is called 'repression'. It is preventing the energy from moving outwardly, from its being expressed. From moving naturally in an outward flow of expression.

To hold it in, to prevent it. So that nobody else gets disturbed by it. Day after day, year after year... it accumulates within.

Society has taught its members to repress certain emotions that need to be expressed. Anger, jealousy, showing tears of sadness, even laughter is not acceptable in certain social situations. One has to 'control' oneself. Society teaches its members at an early age. The parents, the schools, the Sunday schools of church. The programming is done early in childhood. So when the child grows up & has children of their own, they then become the programmers of their own children.

The society has coordinated this - the programming of its members - so the society will look healthy, will look good on the surface. But, underneath, volcanoes are being created, and some individuals will explode in violent rage. People will suffer, & people will die - people have died!

And, the members of that society, through emotional repression, who don't blow their stacks, will end up becoming ill from the emotion crap that is eating their muscles, their organs, their bones & their brains.

This repression is subtle, it is not easily seen by others, by other members of society, that the individual is accumulating great amounts of emotion energy. It collects within the body, within the mind of the individual - the subconscious - and nobody sees that the person is holding, accumulating & storing their emotional garbage, which is in desperate need of expression.

Over time, the accumulation of unexpressed emotion becomes volcanic-like. With so much pent-up energy. The control mechanism cannot last forever, one cannot hold on to a branch of a tree for very long. The hands get tired, the grip loosens, the finger's grip weakens, then the great fall into the abyss... The volcano erupts. The hot lava flows. The explosion can be devastating to many that are within close proximity.


https://znews-photo-td.zadn.vn/w660/Uploaded/sotnzj/2013_12_09/song1.jpg

And, when the pressure has built to such an extreme degree, all it takes is just one small tiny scratch of the skin, and all that pent-up energy comes bursting wide open. The dam breaks, and many people can be swept away, and injured. And many can be blown away by it. Many people have been blown away by it.

But who's responsibility is it, really? The society will never admit that it has been behind this scheme. Society is masochistic. It teaches its members, rewards its members to hurt themselves. People are programmed to repress. But the society never teaches its members how to properly release this pent-up energy, to express this energy in a civilized manner. No!

Instead, the society simply collects the benefit from this programming of its members. The society grows rich off of the programming. It looks healthy, it looks civilized because of this programming. But 'civilized' is only on the surface. It only goes skin-deep. The building of explosive rage, is ongoing, it is the undercurrent. Sure, create a war. This will help many to express the emotions that they've been sitting on day after day, year after year, decade after decade. War is cyclical. It helps for the release.

In other words, the survival of the society, the well-being of a society, is perpetuated at the cost of its members hurting themselves. By teaching them to be good masochists, to be good conformists, to be good 'team' members, to hurt themselves as a group, to damage themselves, and then let them go on 'sick-leave'. Society looks good on the surface, looks like it cares, looks like a healthy society, a rich society, a civilized society. But, this comes at the cost of the mental & physical well-being of its members.

The society survives, flourishes. And, the human beings that make up this so-called 'civilized' society are the ones that suffer from the consequences - mental illness, physical medical problems, prison sentences, hospital stays, divorces, murders, abuses, rapes, schizophrenia, and list goes on....

In the end, the society blames its members. Fines its members, taxes its members, imprisons its members, electrocutes its members, hospitalizes its members, makes money off its members, in an ongoing game of exploitation. And, provides no way, no method, no practice - no nothing - for a way, so its members can remain both physically & mentally healthy from its programmed masochistic practices. This is inexcusable. And grossly unacceptable. This needs to change. Absolutely.

Aragorn
6th November 2018, 02:51
[...]

More @ this LINK (https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/emotional-ecology/anger-is-a-small-thing)

Interesting, I was just hearing that's the way recruitment to various fringe organizations is conducted. Bombard with propaganda then step 2 is to start providing links. So far, you're earning your money, Turiya...you're right on track.

There was no need for that, NotAPretender. :wry:

turiya's post was an article from an external website about spiritual subjects. It has nothing to do with politics, and while the article he quoted presents a very specific opinion on account of anger and how to deal with it, it does not contain any propaganda of any kind.

Considering both of the aforementioned, your comment on turiya's post — which you once again included in your post in its entirety without trimming the quotes — cannot be construed as warranted criticism anymore, but rather comes across as a cloaked ad hominem.

I believe I've already told you this elsewhere, but just for the record, I'm going to repeat it...: I would appreciate it if you were to leave moderation to the staff. That's what we're here for, and even if I say so myself, we're pretty damn good at it.



:watch:




Note for turiya: Please don't apply any coloring to embedded links, because it only makes things more confusing for our members and visitors alike.

I have set things up so that over here at The One Truth and at our sister forum Eye-Rise, links embedded into posts and private messages are by default colorized in the officially named HTML color Orange (color code #FFA500, also known as the officially named HTML color Papaya Orange) for the normal view, and that on mouse-over, they change to the officially named HTML color Red (color code #FF0000) with an underscore effect.


(Note: This shade of red is not the same color as used for administrators here and at Eye-Rise. Said color is the unnamed #FF0040 instead.)

All of our members are accustomed to these visuals by now, and I think our visitors will be quite capable of understanding this presentation as well. By consequence, if you are going to apply your own coloring to embedded links, then you're also going to have to explicitly point out with each of those links that they are, indeed, clickable links — or at least, if you do want the readers to grok that. And therefore, by colorizing your links, you are creating more (and needless) work for yourself. ;)

As an additional hint — given that I've seen you make attempts at colorizing the names of the members whom you are addressing personally in your replies — I have created several BBcode tags which automatically colorize the names of members according to their role here on the forum. Their use follows the standard BBcode syntax of "member name", whereby the "xyz" should be replaced by the following keywords for the matching color:



adm (administrators)
smod (super moderators)
mod (moderators)
member (regular members)
sab (members on sabbatical)
dec (deceased members)
ret (retired members)
bot (official The One Truth bots)


Note: There is no BBcode tag for banned members, because their names are in the officially named HTML color Black (#000000), which can easily be selected from the color picker menu in the toolbar of the editor.

Dreamtimer
6th November 2018, 12:45
...

I must add that I have always been the kind of person who, when crisis occurs, automatically/unconsciously sets all emotions aside and does what is required at the time, when a clear mind is needed most. When the crisis is over and I am alone, the emotions come pouring out. You cannot think clearly when emotional...at least I cannot.

Great post, Fred.

I can relate to that, Melidae. It's the same way with me. My husband will freak out. I keep my head and take action. Then later the emotions will manifest. The best benefit has been modeling that for my son. He also keeps his head cool in crisis.

My sister-in-law freaks out. Which is weird because she's a nurse. I think she can keep calm when it's other people, but when it's close to home she gets very anxious.

My sister-in-law sees red. Those are the words she uses. I worry about her because sometimes I think she's addicted to her anger. (As she's on the other side of the country, I don't get regularly subjected to it)

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2018, 12:56
There was no need for that, NotAPretender. :wry:

Fair enough, Aragorn,

But I see her posts as just another form of manipulation. She is playing this forum like the proverbial fine-tuned stradivarius. But I'll stop...I think it is pretty obvious where I stand... thanks :)

Dreamtimer
6th November 2018, 12:57
To hold it in, to prevent it. So that nobody else gets disturbed by it. Day after day, year after year... it accumulates within.

Our parents taught us how to deal with anger. I grew up assuming that all parents did that. My dad had a temper. He had to learn to control it so it didn't control him. He was able to be both a boss and a dad without losing his temper and taking it out on us or his employees.

My brother had an equally bad temper and my parents worked with him to learn to handle it. He's a dad and does not lose his temper at his kids.

What he does do, sometimes, is take out his pent up emotions on other people, but not in a professional capacity.


Turiya is a dude, NAP. ;)

Melidae
6th November 2018, 13:56
My sister-in-law sees red. Those are the words she uses. I worry about her because sometimes I think she's addicted to her anger. (As she's on the other side of the country, I don't get regularly subjected to it)

I can see how anger can be a kind of addiction, or at the very least, a habit. Some people have difficulty saying what they feel they need to to someone for whatever reason, and need the impetus of anger to let it out. Eventually, it can become an excuse to say whatever you please to people because 'after all, I was angry'. It can even be used to control others.

Thank goodness you live so far apart, Dreamtimer.

turiya
6th November 2018, 16:59
Our parents taught us how to deal with anger.

What he does do, sometimes, is take out his pent up emotions on other people, but not in a professional capacity.


That's not the most civilized way to deal with one's anger. Because what is being done is still putting it on other people.

Then, what will these other people do with the anger that was put on them from your dad... They will put it on still more other people. And then they will find still other people to put it on... In this way, it has the potential possibility to become a world problem. Everyone passing their anger to others that are around them.

The best way, the most civilized way is to express it in a way that will not affect others. For example, take the redneck in the following video. One can easily see how over the top anger that he has. The important thing is that he's not putting it on others. He's expressing in the privacy of his own home. Sure, he made a video about it. But, its more entertainment, rather than actually putting the anger onto others.

The best part is when he goes into the laundry room.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjbEQcGq7Xo

Dreamtimer
6th November 2018, 17:02
It's a mixed bag, I see family only occasionally. But that's been the way my whole life as we regularly moved back and forth across the country due to my father's work. My husband lives a few states away from most of his family as well.

My son also lives pretty far away, although only half the country away now. But it's because he's happy and doing well so I can't complain. Work and college seem to bring about moving.

What I've been doing as regards my brother is just pushing back, meaning calling him out on it and telling him to stop. I think he actually respects that more than when I was gracefully keeping my mouth shut. Ironic, in a way.

Maggie
6th November 2018, 18:17
It's a mixed bag, I see family only occasionally. But that's been the way my whole life as we regularly moved back and forth across the country due to my father's work. My husband lives a few states away from most of his family as well.

My son also lives pretty far away, although only half the country away now. But it's because he's happy and doing well so I can't complain. Work and college seem to bring about moving.

What I've been doing as regards my brother is just pushing back, meaning calling him out on it and telling him to stop. I think he actually respects that more than when I was gracefully keeping my mouth shut. Ironic, in a way.

It sounds like you have learned how to respond?

I don't have a good family history with anger and for me, anger is not a small thing because it can easily be squelched and IMO becomes enraged. Then only after sufficient build up, the rage is triggered. That at least is my old history. Now I let myself be angry. That makes it no small thing because others don't appreciate anger. However, i have not let that stop me from telling others "I feel (angry) about (whatever). the response is never able to make me more angry (or enraged) and I feel it dissipate when expressed to the source.

IMO the emotions that get shut down are the issue>

Glad to see how others handle the "red zone". yeah, if anger is a color, it is red for me too.

Dreamtimer
6th November 2018, 21:39
I really don't see red like I've heard described. But I will react to great unfairness or injustice.

My husband recently made the mistake, in a moment of self-pity, of saying that nobody has his back. I've had his back like no one else and he got a very strong reaction from me. The kind very few have ever seen or heard from me. He apologized and said that he was wrong and should've been more careful.


My sister-in-law just lays into people, often for things they aren't responsible for. It's not a good thing. I certainly push back when she does that.

turiya
6th November 2018, 22:11
Cathartic Therapy

Remember. It is allowing oneself to vent the anger in a creative way, rather than targeting, and putting it onto another living being. This includes animals, and pets. Pet abuse is also against the law in many countries.


https://dingo.care2.com/pictures/petition_images/petition/867/843329-1453851531-wide.jpg

Expressing anger, and other emotions is very important. Preventing oneself from naturally doing so, and the energy will still find another way to express itself. Instead of expressing the energy outwardly, it will move inwardly. In other words, when energy is prevented from being expressed naturally, it will still find a way of moving towards being expressed. If not done naturally, the energy will move in a perverted form. The energy can move in a self-destructive & perverted form. And that perverted form will also turn on the innocence of others.

Just take a look at all the Catholic priests that have been accused of child abuse & molestation. The idea that one is more closer to God if they abstain from their sexual urges has all backfired on those that are (literally) 'hell bent' on entering heaven by abstaining from the natural urges of engaging in sex. The energy accumulates over time, and a kind of monster grows within, the control mechanism loosens, and the nefarious / perverted act goes after the innocence found within young women & children.

It goes to prove.... Fighting with Mother Nature is very much a losing proposition. One is only fooling themselves if they think they know better.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iSGXOQFGJhk/URGOBS9i_uI/AAAAAAAAD5k/ZtlBcMKPfBM/s1600/horsey2513.jpg

https://wrongologist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/COW-Pedophiles.jpg

There were so many people that were upset with the way the 2016 election took. Trump won. Many people were wildly upset.

Many had the right idea about what to do with their pent-up emotions. And that was to find a way to release it. Like a steam cooker. The pressure has to be released. Otherwise the pot will explode under the pressure. Many on the losing side gathered together to scream into the night sky. This is the civilized approach, the energy is thrown into sky, and not on anybody in particular. Its thrown out of oneself, and onto nobody. Just up in the air - there is no one that is the target in the expression of it. Its simply a healthy cathartic exercise. Its a self-cleaning exercise, to cleanse oneself of the emotions that they themselves have created the situation in which they manifest in & are responsible for.

Understanding this. It is the key. Otherwise, holding onto the energy, burying the energy inside of oneself, allowing it to build up an unsustainable pressure, it will have the potential to cause a great amount of damage. Not only to oneself, but to many, many others.

Now, the following is the civilized way of dealing with one's anger. Although the news media outlets, and those that are recording these events, are degrading the actions that are being filmed. This has to change. Rather, it should be viewed as one of the best venues to use in moving the energy out of oneself. So that self-health is maintained.

And of course, above any else, if these expressions of pent-up emotions, basically caused by the frustration of desires not being fulfilled, if the practice of expressing emotions were moved into a private venue, as a means of being a cathartic therapy (as a health practice), then there would be no one (from the outside) there to view the exercise being performed. Hence, there would be no one there that would criticize somebody for maintaining their own mental & physical health. Health care industry can easily provide such a facility whereby such therapeutic work can be done - in a private venue.

I don't agree with the criticism that is being done to mock these people. It is an exercise in moving emotional energies as therapy. A day will come when this will be more accepted by civilized societies. Today, most societies are really not truly civilized.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ8RY3WwEUI

Aragorn
6th November 2018, 23:37
I really don't see red like I've heard described.

I would just like to interject something on account of this "seeing red". I have personally never experienced that, but I believe there may be a physiological factor involved with that, quite possibly of a genetically predisposed neurological order.

I haven't properly researched this, but the "seeing red" could be the result of a contraction of facial blood vessels. This then naturally increases the presence of blood in other areas of the head, including the eye, thereby overlaying the image that the eye perceives with a translucent red veil because of the localized increase in blood pressure. Some people turn white as a sheet when they're angry, and they may or may not exhibit a tremor.

For well over a decade already, I have personally been forced to deal with the borderline personality disorder of a dear friend of mine. She has severe mood swings — themselves probably instigated by an additional affliction with bipolar disorder — and when she's in "that zone", then she immediately turns vicious and says the nastiest of things, not unlike the experience recounted by Melidae higher up the thread.

The outburst then also turns into psychosis, and then she starts seeing things that aren't there, as well as making false allegations, completely twisting the facts around, and putting herself in a victim role. My friend knows that she does this, and afterwards, she will remember everything, but in the moment itself, she cannot control it. It is stronger than her will.

I have also seen other people flip over from a completely laid-back mood to vicious rage in — literally — the blink of an eye. I saw a former friend of mine do that in response to something his father said rather innocently. I have seen that same former friend also react in similar ways toward other people, including my then-girlfriend and then eventually even toward myself.

So I do believe that there may be a physiological/neurological factor involved on account of the lack of anger management in certain people. Psychosis itself is also far more prevalent among humans than commonly believed, but most people are never diagnosed as such.

You always have to keep in mind that a diagnosis of any kind is generally only cast when there is an observable and repeating problem, or when the individual in question is under treatment for something that may be entirely unrelated. An example which lies still fresh in memory, is that our dear friend Brook — bless her soul — only found out that she had stage 4 lung cancer when she was admitted to hospital because of a heart attack.

That said, anger itself doesn't (have to) come from any physiological sources. The physiology in the above-described situations is only a catalyst in how well or how poorly any given individual can control, funnel or otherwise manage their anger. It doesn't have anything to do with people's deliberate choice to funnel their anger onto the first person to cross their path, or onto animals, or onto inanimate objects. Or perhaps they choose to cultivate their anger until they feel it is the right time to strategically direct it at someone or something that they already had a strong dislike for earlier. The latter for instance is one of the traits — not the only trait, but one of them anyway — of the typical schoolyard/workplace bully.

From the sociological and psychological vantage, anger is certainly an interesting phenomenon. And we all have to deal with it at some point, if not as transmitter, then as a receiver or as a witness. :hmm:

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2018, 23:43
Turiya is a dude, NAP. ;)

I work with a couple of guys that are huuuge fans of 'The Office' Their response to almost everything is...drumroll please...

"That's what she said!" ... :)

Melidae
7th November 2018, 19:33
Thank goodness I didn't start seeing things after, like your friend, Aragorn. But I do agree with your post above.

I was the only one in my family with anger issues. Turns out it was due to being denied emotional release when I was ill as a young child...in and out of hospitals from 3-1/2 to 15 years of age. If I was anything other than 'happy', it would 'make others feels bad'. The build-up of unreleased emotions would grow until, when angry, it would burst forth in full bright red color...the spewing forth of the venom of years of pent-up anger would give me an weird sense of both relief and shame. I think the 'red-outs' were a part of breaking through that dam of false belief that so deeply ingrained.

Facing the truth, knowing where it came from and why gave me a new sense of self and the ability to channel emotional energy in positive directions.

Emil El Zapato
8th November 2018, 22:44
Late to the game but,

about the only time I get angry is when I'm in a relationship. that's why I stay out of them. I'm so much happier alone. After my daughter was born there was really no reason to pursue misery. But, my daughter is growing up and moving away. It is sad for me...makes me almost wish I had somebody to relate to in an intellectual way. I've always wanted that but unfortunately have never even been close, sexual attraction always took precedence, that and a huge amount of personal dysfunction.

Even in exteme anger the only thing I ever wanted was reason, reasonableness...that's pretty much it. To vent is like having a bad tooth pulled...What a relief, naw, not even that. If there really was a resolution to anger there would be no anger. The only solution that is feasible is to disengage and who can do that? :)

I really feel for the families of those victims in California. Just last night my daughter and I had a conversation on college life and personal safety. I reassured her that if she lives a low risk life style she will be pretty safe. She said flying bullets are flying bullets and whether or not someone is an intended victim they suffer just the same. She said it was ironic that she knows how to use a gun but wouldn't buy one, even though she knew she could easily. She remarked that a crazy woman is as bad as a crazy guy that can buy a weapon without any resistance. She's thinking about a stun gun, which a number of her friends have purchased AND a big dog. I've prayed that she would never feel unsafe.

Maggie
8th November 2018, 23:55
Late to the game but,

about the only time I get angry is when I'm in a relationship. that's why I stay out of them. I'm so much happier alone. After my daughter was born there was really no reason to pursue misery. But, my daughter is growing up and moving away. It is sad for me...makes me almost wish I had somebody to relate to in an intellectual way. I've always wanted that but unfortunately have never even been close, sexual attraction always took precedence, that and a huge amount of personal dysfunction.

Even in exteme anger the only thing I ever wanted was reason, reasonableness...that's pretty much it. To vent is like having a bad tooth pulled...What a relief, naw, not even that. If there really was a resolution to anger there would be no anger. The only solution that is feasible is to disengage and who can do that? :)

I really feel for the families of those victims in California. Just last night my daughter and I had a conversation on college life and personal safety. I reassured her that if she lives a low risk life style she will be pretty safe. She said flying bullets are flying bullets and whether or not someone is an intended victim they suffer just the same. She said it was ironic that she knows how to use a gun but wouldn't buy one, even though she knew she could easily. She remarked that a crazy woman is as bad as a crazy guy that can buy a weapon without any resistance. She's thinking about a stun gun, which a number of her friends have purchased AND a big dog. I've prayed that she would never feel unsafe.

It is a big thing (if anger is a small thing) to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. I think we let our gaurd down in personal relationship and the hardest task is living with others IMO. I had a strange experience with a man whom I still scratch my head over. I cannot tell if he is a psychopath or saint. He could trigger absolute rage because frankly, he was an absolutely impossible person FOR ME. I tried all kinds of process to be reasonable. Then something would just be like the "thin mint" and I'd have enough trigger to blow. This would push him out of my space. I was glad.

Really I am glad to be unattached but I know what you mean. I like the idea of love and community with like minded people.

I liked talking to this man. He liked talking about common interests and intellectual connection is great. I wonder if people who are spiritual seekers may act like narcissists and actually when people are self (even SELF) preoccupied they can be failures in daily life with simple life tasks. When you become involved with people, it is heroic to get along. He did not try IMO.

I certainly don't want to live with a personality disordered bunch. That is why i think I must do inner work.

All this to say, I have never felt rage like that kind outside of a releationship where I felt I was feeling desperate crazy crazy helpless out of control.. No fault to be in it but still impossible to contain. Appropriate anger communicates boundaries I think? If someone is in our space, boundaries get mixed up and tricky.

Emil El Zapato
9th November 2018, 00:47
Amen to that Maggie...it's a long boring and as you say, very tricky question... :)

Dreamtimer
9th November 2018, 00:57
It's been really hard for me in life to stand up for myself. Learning to do that was a good thing. I would have much pent up anger due to people taking advantage or some such. After some years of speaking up and standing up for myself people have stopped the things they were doing. And I get angry less.

Some people will just walk all over you until you make them stop.

Emil El Zapato
9th November 2018, 01:01
very true and some people simply will not stop...bad sitiyation....

Chris
9th November 2018, 06:32
It's been really hard for me in life to stand up for myself. Learning to do that was a good thing. I would have much pent up anger due to people taking advantage or some such. After some years of speaking up and standing up for myself people have stopped the things they were doing. And I get angry less.

Some people will just walk all over you until you make them stop.

Without wanting to sound too sexist, I do think this is an issue women in particular struggle with, especially when it comes to dealing with men and it is worse in some cultures than others. Women in Western countries are quite good at standing up for themselves, in other places they're just being walked over by men all the time.

Japan would be a prime example of a modern, advanced, industrial society with medieval attitudes towards women, which can be absolutely shocking to an outsider. Young women are actually escaping the country in droves because they can't live with the stifling, highly restrictive social norms.

As for some Islamic societies, medieval attitudes would actually be an improvement compared to what they currently have. You can find pictures of what Afghanistan was like in the seventies for instance. Or Iran, or Egypt. Women walked around uncovered, went to beaches wearing bikinis, that kind of thing. Try that now and you're dead.


This regression in social norms is depicted very well in the book and TV series, The Handmaid's Tale. Although it is set in a fictionalised post-collapse USA, this actually already happened in the likes of Iran and Afghanistan and that's what the book is largely based on. I personally don't think that a Christian society could ever be as oppressive towards women as what is depicted in the show.

Let's hope nobody tries to prove me wrong on that. Certainly, Ireland made a good run for it in previous decades with the omnipotence of the Church, as have Spain, Portugal and other catholic-fascist dictatorships, chiefly in Latin America.

Emil El Zapato
9th November 2018, 11:43
This might sound dumb but I'm not familiar with female oppression in Latin America of the same kind experienced in the Middle East. From a personal perspective...really...my exposure to the culture which is pretty much dominant in me is that women are very domineering and men are excellent at playing mucho macho but behind closed doors men are perfect sissies and mercilessly henpecked. If one doesn't conform to that cultural pattern beware because hell is awaitin'.

It has been statistically noted that in Mexico as many as 60-70% of women report domestic abuse...My only response to that is that domestic abuse is the result of a sense of powerlessness not power. Consider that dynamic carefully. In any case, there are many factors to consider from interpersonal dynamics and the end result is that things are never as they seem.

Dreamtimer
9th November 2018, 11:46
It's frightening to think about living under such conditions. And we're not at all far removed. That's why, in the chaos thread, I speculated that if an advanced civilization came to visit they'd be led by females. Because civilization, imo, is not really advanced until we move beyond having one gender be subservient to the other.

And if a civilization can get beyond the ego, then they would have the females lead and represent because they would put communication, cooperation, and compassion ahead of ego and the need to be a 'strong man'.

Of course, that assumes that another group of beings would have the same kind of issues/character that we do.

Emil El Zapato
9th November 2018, 12:06
It's frightening to think about living under such conditions. And we're not at all far removed. That's why, in the chaos thread, I speculated that if an advanced civilization came to visit they'd be led by females. Because civilization, imo, is not really advanced until we move beyond having one gender be subservient to the other.

And if a civilization can get beyond the ego, then they would have the females lead and represent because they would put communication, cooperation, and compassion ahead of ego and the need to be a 'strong man'.

Of course, that assumes that another group of beings would have the same kind of issues/character that we do.

lol, FemiNazi ... :)

Chris
9th November 2018, 12:18
This might sound dumb but I'm not familiar with female oppression in Latin America of the same kind experienced in the Middle East. From a personal perspective...really...my exposure to the culture which is pretty much dominant in me is that women are very domineering and men are excellent at playing mucho macho but behind closed doors men are perfect sissies and mercilessly henpecked. If one doesn't conform to that cultural pattern beware because hell is awaitin'.

It has been statistically noted that in Mexico as many as 60-70% of women report domestic abuse...My only response to that is that domestic abuse is the result of a sense of powerlessness not power. Consider that dynamic carefully. In any case, there are many factors to consider from interpersonal dynamics and the end result is that things are never as they seem.

I was primarily referring to various fascist dictatorships that thrived in that region in the last century. These tend to be oppressive in general, but women are often the ones bearing the brunt of it, as well as various minorities. The connecting tissue between all of them, as well as Mussolini's Italy and Fascist Spain and Portugal, seems to the misogynistic and totalitarian attitudes propagated by the Roman Church.

Even Nazi Germany had an unholy alliance with Rome. In my own country, fascism and the Roman Church had a significant alliance as well, often working hand in hand, not least in the disempowerment and eventual mass murder of Jews.

Chris
9th November 2018, 12:31
It's frightening to think about living under such conditions. And we're not at all far removed. That's why, in the chaos thread, I speculated that if an advanced civilization came to visit they'd be led by females. Because civilization, imo, is not really advanced until we move beyond having one gender be subservient to the other.

And if a civilization can get beyond the ego, then they would have the females lead and represent because they would put communication, cooperation, and compassion ahead of ego and the need to be a 'strong man'.

Of course, that assumes that another group of beings would have the same kind of issues/character that we do.

I think you're confusing biological sex with what I would describe as the male and female creative principle in the universe. You could call it Shiva and Shakti or Yin and Yang. These can be out of balance in any individual, irrespective of their biological sex (I use sex instead of gender for a very good reason). The problem with the world today isn't that men run it (mostly), but that the people who run it, whether men or women, are actually out of balance within themselves and are dominated by the male principle at the expense of the female one.

That is why I find feminism so destructive, because it prescribes precisely the wrong remedy to this problem. Instead of trying to rebalance the world by strengthening the female principle, it does the opposite and propagates masculinity, especially in women. That is the last thing we need right now, both men and women are desperately short of femininity, or the Goddess Energy, if that's what you prefer. We need more people who are at balance, neither there male, nor their female side dominates, but they cooperate harmoniously and have strengths and weaknesses in different areas.


As for Alien societies, I suspect some are run by Queens, much like insects, or the Borg in Star Trek, but that is unlikely to be a good thing in and of itself. It is not the sex of the leaders of these societies that I'm concerned with, but the overall balance within themselves and hence their benevolence or lack thereof.

Dreamtimer
9th November 2018, 12:59
I never joined any feminist organizations. I appreciate the fight for rights for women. But I fight on my own terms rather than by joining feminist groups. The big thing for me is anger towards men. We can't make progress if we're steeped in anger.

So I socialize with and have many male friends. That way they can find out first-hand the value of women as intelligent people.

The best examples we have come from Native Americans. The women decided whether they would war because it was their sons going to fight. The sachems, which were chiefs and representatives were often women. Something the European men had a lot of difficulty with.

The six nations of the finger lakes were a large inspiration for our Constitution, based on their millennium-long peace treaty. The Europeans just didn't have that kind of model to base their new ideas upon.

Fred Steeves
9th November 2018, 17:11
That's why, in the chaos thread, I speculated that if an advanced civilization came to visit they'd be led by females. Because civilization, imo, is not really advanced until we move beyond having one gender be subservient to the other.

This may well be taken as another example of projection, but I can't read the above statement any other way than the classic "doublethink", as made famous in Orwell's "1984".

If advanced civilization should be women led, doesn't that by definition make one gender (men in this case), subservient to the other?

Doublethink:

"As used in 1984, the concept of doublethink is the ability to hold two completely contradictory thoughts simultaneously while believing both to be true".

turiya
9th November 2018, 17:31
I can see how anger can be a kind of addiction, or at the very least, a habit. Some people have difficulty saying what they feel they need to to someone for whatever reason, and need the impetus of anger to let it out. Eventually, it can become an excuse to say whatever you please to people because 'after all, I was angry'. It can even be used to control others.

Yes, human beings are creatures of habit. Living in an unconscious state is habitual behavior. All habits, whether deemed 'good' habits, or 'bad', are done through an unconscious state of mind.

Becoming overwhelmed by one's pent-up emotional release and one drops deeper into an unconscious state. Logic is often times quite difficult to come by.

With the explosive release of pent-up energy comes a deep period of relaxation within the body-mind mechanism. With a heavy crying session, one also finds a deep relaxation coming in, as in the wake of ocean wave after such a release. A great crescendo - the crest in a wave - will naturally yield a complementary trough - an after effect of deep relaxation floods in. This can set up a reason for revisiting & establishing a desire to repeat this in future. Hence, making a habit out of this kind of actvity.

It takes awareness in order to understand what is actually taking place in order to not fall into this sort of repeating, habit of behavior. With more awareness, observation of what is taking place, and an understanding becomes relevant. The crests become less, and the trough of the emotional wave will also become less.

This is science. Witnessing what is taking place within oneself is a subjective science. It is a science of the soul.

http://www.ini.usc.edu/images/banner.jpg

Dreamtimer
9th November 2018, 21:14
I brought up the Native American ways because they were cooperative, both sexes were involved in important decision making.

I was really trying to convey the idea that women would manage things and represent, not rule over the other gender. Women are a less threatening presentation, at least with primates.

If we were mantis beings (forget Mr. Parks) then that might not be so good as the females are way bigger and I think they eat the males.

That's not advanced at all.


I could have laid down money that you'd respond that way Fred. ;) Where is my bookie?

Fred Steeves
10th November 2018, 10:39
That's why, in the chaos thread, I speculated that if an advanced civilization came to visit they'd be led by females. Because civilization, imo, is not really advanced until we move beyond having one gender be subservient to the other.


This may well be taken as another example of projection, but I can't read the above statement any other way than the classic "doublethink", as made famous in Orwell's "1984".

If advanced civilization should be women led, doesn't that by definition make one gender (men in this case), subservient to the other?

Doublethink:

"As used in 1984, the concept of doublethink is the ability to hold two completely contradictory thoughts simultaneously while believing both to be true".


I brought up the Native American ways because they were cooperative, both sexes were involved in important decision making.

I was really trying to convey the idea that women would manage things and represent, not rule over the other gender. Women are a less threatening presentation, at least with primates.

That may well be dear lady. But that's not what you actually said. This is the last time I will do so, but I've been pointing out a pattern of you giving very strong opinions about certain things, then turning right around and saying that you have said nothing of the kind. I truly do not think you see this.

If you weren't in a position of authority as a moderator I would just whistle on by. But IMO by being in that position as a deemed problem solver and decision maker, you should be held to a higher standard.


I could have laid down money that you'd respond that way Fred. ;) Where is my bookie?

I call 'em like I see 'em. If I'm just barking at the night, it will be obvious to the astute reader. :)

Dreamtimer
10th November 2018, 12:07
I'm not choosing my words so precisely that they can be parsed, Fred. And that is what you do. I have tried, clumsily, to express these ideas before. I don't always do so well. And you seem to zero in on the worst interpretations. Which is why I said what I said.

I have no strong position on the matter, it's just speculation as I've said before. It's a thing of imagination, wondering about advanced cultures/civilizations.

You also accused me of having extreme positions regarding the 'both sides' nonsense when I was offering up someone else's idea for discussion which weren't even mine.

And your reaction to a typical protest song was to say that the young lady had extreme views. It was strange to me, which I said clearly. You gave neither reply nor explanation.

You've never even explained what you think is extreme, you just imply that there's something wrong with how I think. I wasn't using double-speak above, I was speculating without holding any position. What position is there to hold? Maybe advanced civilizations have no gender or both. How much does it even matter?

It's always interesting to me when others try to analyze my mind and emotions. Because in the process they reveal much about themselves. Very few here have zeroed into my actual state of mind. It's not as easy as some like to think.

But I'm glad you finally expressed what you really feel instead of beating around the bush. People here have been as free as possible to express their views. I do not walk on peoples' toes. I stay out of a great many discussions. We moderate as a group.

All of us have a right to both express strong views and change our minds as we learn, which is what adults do.

As it happens, I have a moderate stance on most issues and believe strongly in cooperation. That's why the mod team here has worked so well for so long. Maybe you know other forums that have had such stable mod teams, although I doubt it. It's a thankless job which can take a lot of time and offers neither pay nor status. It is what it is and this is a small forum.

In my personal life, I have very little conflict. No one who actually knows me thinks I have any kind of extreme views nor do they think I use double-speak.

As Modwiz has said many times, the written word leaves much to be desired.

Emil El Zapato
10th November 2018, 13:25
Here's my view...ForWhatever It's Worth:

Dreamtimer, you have good values and they are reflected in what you post...there's nothing wrong with that. Since we we are astrologically similar maybe I have a little insight. Do, think, and act in a compassionate fair way and all is good. If extreme views are presented whether from the right or left, you are there to swing the balance. That makes good sense to me.

Trump is an extreme abomination to all that is holy in creation. And you are there to point it out, to counter the evil for the sake of the good. Nothing extreme about that... :)

turiya
10th November 2018, 14:00
"As used in 1984..."

Speaking of 1984...

The 'Two Minutes of Hate' scene in the 1984 movie is actually the perfect exercise - as a health care practice - that societies across this planet need to adopt as an acceptable means for releasing pent-up emotions. The only thing that would need to be added to this, would be to have this type of exercise prolonged to, perhaps, ~ 15 minutes, then bring it to an abrupt halt - say, with one loud drum beat - then, each member of the group to bring their attention to focus (with closed eyes) on the silence that is found within themselves, which would be then more easily accessible. The sense of 'being' is more easily attainable.

This is combining a cathartic therapy session and using it in conjunction with a period of meditation. Throwing out the emotional garbage is the first step. This naturally leaves behind, in its wake, an empty silence within the individual. The noise of the mind has been removed, leaving behind a calm, still lake of silence.

https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/reflection-landscape-photography-jaewoon-u-6.jpg

It would be of utmost importance for everyone within the group to participate in such a meditative therapeutic exercise. Otherwise, those who do not participate would subject themselves to receiving the emotional garbage that others are spewing out from within themselves. Note that in this particular scene, actors Richard Burton & John Hurt, themselves, are of the few that are not participating with the others, but for the most part, are simply watching what others are doing.

The stigma that this Orwellian movie has left behind would, of course, be a hurdle that would need to be overcome, before this practice would be able to be widely accepted. The 1984 movie has left behind the notion in the minds of many that such a practice would be a hard thing to accept. Albeit, it is the most civilized approach to maintaining mental & physical health in a social situation that has many people living within close proximity with each other.


http://johnguycollick.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2minutehate600.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y

Emil El Zapato
10th November 2018, 14:37
ok Turiya,

Upfront I will tell you I'm gunning for you, but trust that I will do it in an open-minded fair and balanced way...so far I haven't nailed you down but I am willing to admit that there might be more to you than 1st indicated. Why don't you reveal more about who you are and what you do in your life, and what your goals are. We might even find level ground to have a real discussion. What do you say?

NAP

I'll start...

I'm 'merican... :)

Fred Steeves
10th November 2018, 14:55
That's interesting take on the two minutes of hate scene turiya. Sure, why not? Thing is though I don't think it need be incorporated society wide, maybe more for groups people with anger issues could join. Same as there is no need for people who don't drink to go to AA meetings.

turiya
10th November 2018, 16:45
That's interesting take on the two minutes of hate scene turiya. Sure, why not? Thing is though I don't think it need be incorporated society wide, maybe more for groups people with anger issues could join. Same as there is no need for people who don't drink to go to AA meetings.

Well yeah, I agree. All that has to happen is for the psychiatric community & the community of psychologists to accept this form of therapy as a viable form of health care, so that people can help themselves, so that people can keep themselves within the range of being normally sane, rather than being prescribed pharmaceutical drugs like SSRIs (psychotropic drugs) as a way to deal with one's own depression.

Depression, by the way, stems from the sense that people cannot really be who they are. So, they end up repressing themselves - prevent the expression of their emotions. As a result, people at present, mostly go to a psychiatrist, a psychologist, marriage counselors, etc. And, in most cases, are prescribed pharmaceutical drugs.

If the medical industry were to allow & practice this form of therapy. I believe you would find illnesses, such as bipolar disorder, becoming much less of a problem... schizophrenia, as well. That is IMO. If the medical industry were to accept this, then the rest of society would follow suit.

Big Pharma will fight this tooth & nail. The amount of $$$ involved - they make [literally] a killing from! They will not let this happen, because it means their death. People can take care of themselves. And, Big Pharma will fight this to the very end.

Certainly, I think you would agree that meditation is a 'self-help' way for someone to keep themselves from going insane. Meditation is a method for grounding oneself in this reality.

https://collegereentry.org/sites/default/files/header-images/Bipolar.jpg

turiya
10th November 2018, 20:40
In the meantime...

Come on, now...
Who do you think you are?

You really think you're in control???

F*ck No!

I think you're all crazy... yeah!
Crazy... just like me... just like me...


:)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgHioCC3yCo&list=RDMgHioCC3yCo&start_radio=1&t=181
___________Late Add___________

Lyrics
I remember when
I remember, I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions have an echo in so much space
And when you're out there, without care
Yeah I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Possibly
And now that you are having the time of your life
Well think twice
That's my only advice
Come on now, who do you
Who do you, who do you
Who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha, bless your soul
You really think you're in control?
Well... [F*ck no!]
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
Just like me
My heroes…
Maybe I'm crazy
Maybe you're crazy
Maybe we're crazy
Probably ooh hmm
Songwriters: Brian Joseph Burton / Gian Pero Reverberi / Gianfranco Reverberi / Thomas Callaway
Crazy lyrics © Warner/Chappell Music, Inc, Universal Music Publishing Group, BMG Rights Management

Fred Steeves
10th November 2018, 21:50
I'm not so sure about the message, but that was one rockin tune. Fantastic lead singer.

Elen
11th November 2018, 05:32
I'm not so sure about the message, but that was one rockin tune. Fantastic lead singer.

Ditto!:bump2:

Emil El Zapato
11th November 2018, 11:48
Come on, now...
Who do you think you are?

Who does one have to be? The game is afoot... :)

turiya
13th November 2018, 13:16
It is all imagination.

It is all imagination.
Just watch, and don’t do anything – for or against.
And you will be surprised: that which was looking very big, becomes very, very small.

But our habit is to exaggerate."

More @ this LINK (https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/emotional-ecology/anger-is-a-small-thing)

I have heard one story...
It happened in Rome at the time of the Middle Ages, at a time when the Catholic community and the Jewish community were not getting along...


https://hillelabramson.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1413-disputation-1.jpg?w=1000

Back in medieval times, the Roman Pope was persuaded by some of his more conservative advisors to endure no longer the presence of Jews in the very heart and core of world Christianity. The Jews of Rome were therefore ordered to be evicted from their home by a certain date.

To the Jews of Rome, this was a great tragedy, for they knew no refuge where they might not expect worse treatment than in Rome. They appealed to the Pope for reconsideration, and the Pope, a fair-minded man, suggested a sporting proposition. If the Jews would appoint one of their own members to engage in a debate with him in pantomime, and if the Jewish representative were to win the debate, the Jews might remain.

The Jewish leaders gathered in the synagogue that night and considered the proposition. It seemed the only way out, but none of their number wished to volunteer to debate. As the Chief Rabbi said, "It is impossible to win a debate in which the Pope will be both a participant and a judge. And how can I face the possibility that the eviction of the Jews will be a result of my specific failure?"

The synagogue janitor, who had been quietly sweeping the floor through all this, suddenly spoke up. "I will debate," he said.

They stared at him in astonishment. "You, a chief janitor," said the Chief Rabbi, "debate with the Pope?"

"Someone has to," said the janitor, "and none of you will."

So in default of anyone else, the janitor was made the representative of the Jewish community and was appointed to debate with the Pope.

Then came the great day of the debate. In the square before St. Peter's was the Pope, surrounded by the College of Cardinals in full panoply, with crowds of bishops and other church functionaries. Approaching was the Jewish janitor, surrounded by a few leaders of the Jewish community, in their somber black garb and their long gray beards. The Pope faced the janitor - and the debate began.

Gravely, the Pope raised a finger and swept it across the heavens. Without hesitation, the janitor pointed firmly toward the ground, and the Pope looked surprised.

Even more gravely, the Pope raised one finger again, keeping it firmly before the janitor's face. With the trace of a sneer, the janitor raised three fingers, holding them before the Pope just as firmly, and a look of deep astonishment crossed the Pope's face again.

Then the Pope thrust his hand deep into his robes and produced an apple. The janitor thereupon opened a paper bag that was sticking out of his hip pocket and took out a flat piece of matzo. At this the Pope exclaimed in a loud voice, "The Jewish representative has won the debate. The Jews may remain in Rome."

The janitor backed off, the Jewish leaders surrounded him, and all walked hastily out of the square. They were no sooner gone than the church leaders clustered about the Pope. "What happened, Your Holiness?", they demanded. "We didn't follow the rapid give & take."

The Pope passed a shaking hand across his brow. "The man facing me," he said, "was a master at the art of debate. Consider... I began the debate by sweeping my hand across the sky to indicate that God ruled all the Universe. Without pausing an instant, the old Jew pointed downward to indicate that nevertheless, the devil has been assigned a dominion of his own below.

"I then raised one finger to indicate there was but one God, assuming I would catch him in the error of his own theology. Yet, he instantly raised three fingers to indicate that one God had three manifestations - a clear acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Abandoning theology, I produced an apple to indicate that certain blind followers of so-called science were flying in the face of revealed truth by declaring that the earth was as round as an apple. Instantly, he produced a flat piece of unleavened bread to indicate that the Earth, in accord with revelation, was nevertheless flat. So I granted him victory."

By now, the Jews and the janitor had reached the ghetto. All surrounded the janitor, demanding, "What happened?"

The janitor said indignantly, "The whole thing was nonsense. Listen. First the Pope waves his hand like he is saying the Jews must get out of Rome. So I point downward to say the Jews are gong to stay right here. So, he points his finger at me as if to say "drop dead, because the Jews are leaving." So, I point three fingers at him to say, "Drop dead three times! The Jews are staying. So then, I see he is taking out his lunch, so I take out mine."

This is the way human mind works & its habitual tendency to move into extremes through imagination. It's all imagination...

:)

Dreamtimer
14th November 2018, 12:22
The human mind creates clever humor so that we can laugh.

turiya
14th November 2018, 13:02
Mind... a Useful Tool...


The human mind creates clever humor so that we can laugh.

Yes, its a very useful tool... So, is a row boat when you want to cross a river. So, is a ladder when you want to climb up on your roof.

But carrying these things around with you when they're not needed can have them be turned into a cumbersome nuisance. And, an unnecessary burden, causing oneself much trouble...

Its good to know how to put a useful tool aside when its not needed.
Knowing what meditation is, serves that purpose.


http://curezone.com/upload/_T_Forums/Turiya_Files_/AVALON/TRUMP/4CHAN_SMILEY_FACE1.png

Emil El Zapato
15th November 2018, 00:08
That's the beauty of psychopathy. If you have no tether, then you are free of all things. Including true knowledge, true spirituality, true humanity, and true action.

turiya
15th November 2018, 17:02
Only you can know who you are...

The distance between the 'real' man & the man as he exists in this world today has become almost unbridgeable. Man has drifted so far away from his own reality, that he has pretty much forgotten how to find the way to get back home.

Lost, as such, he has truly forgotten what his real purpose was of his ever being here in the first place.....

There is an old ancient parable...


http://pravoslavie.ru/sas/image/102188/218897.x.jpg
A very wise king wanted his son - his only son, who was going to be his successor - to be a wise man before he succeeded him and became the king of a vast kingdom. The old man chose a way which was quite strange...

The king's way was that he sent this son away from the kingdom, told him that he was abandoned, that he should forget completely that he was ever a prince. He made the official announcement...


"He is no longer a prince and I am not going to make him my successor."

After which, all his beautiful clothes, ornaments - everything - was taken away. He was given the clothes of a beggar and sent away in the middle of the night in a chariot to be thrown out of the kingdom. And strict orders were given that he should not be allowed back in the kingdom from anywhere.

Years passed; the prince really became a beggar. He really forgot that he was a prince. In fact, there had been no effort on his part to forget - he was, indeed, a beggar, living a beggars life. He begged for clothes, for food, for shelter, and he slowly, slowly had come to accept the condition that he found himself in.

After many years, one day he was sitting outside a hotel, begging. It was hot summer and he wanted enough money to purchase a pair of shoes -secondhand, of course - because the earth was almost like fire, and to walk without shoes was becoming impossible. He had wounds on his feet, and he was crying out for just a few coins. At that very moment, a golden chariot stopped before the hotel, and a man descended. The man said, "Your father has called you back. He is very old and dying, and he wants you to be his successor."

In a single split second the beggar disappeared. The man was totally different; you could see it in his face, his eyes... the clothes were of the beggar still, but the man was totally different. A crowd gathered - the same crowd before whom he had been spreading his hands for a few coins - and they all started showing great friendship to him. But now, he was not even paying attention to them. He went up to the chariot, sat in the chariot and told the man who had come to get him, "First take me to a beautiful place where I can have a good bath, find clothes worthy of me, shoes, ornaments... because I can go before the king only as a prince."

He came home, and he came as a prince. He said to his father, "Just one thing I want to ask: Why did I have to be a beggar for so many years? I had really forgotten... If you had not called me back, I would have died as a beggar, never remembering that once I was a prince."

The father said, "This is what my father did to me. It was not done to harm you, but to give you the experience of the extremes of life - the beggar and the king. And between these two, everybody exists.

"That day I told you to forget that you were a prince; now I want you to remember that being a prince or being a beggar are just identities given by others. It is not your reality, it is not who you truly are - neither the king, nor the beggar. And the moment you realize that you are not what the world thinks of you, you are not what you appear to be to others, but you are something so deeply hidden in yourself that, except for you, nobody else can see you, nobody else can know you, only you can know who you are. Only then, does a man become wise. Knowing this, wisdom follows.

"I was angry with my father and I know you must have been angry with me. But forgive me, I had to do it to make it clear to you: don't get identified with being a king, don't get identified with being a beggar, because in a split second these identities can be changed. And that which can be changed is not you. It is not who you truly are. You are something more. You are something eternal, something unchangeable."

People have gone far away from the reality of who they are. And to remind them of their reality - of who they truly are - it hurts. Initially, it hurts. They feel hurt by being reminded. Their treatment of others, what they say, their judgement, their criticism, it is nothing but an expression of their own wounded heart. They don't want to see those wounds; they don't want others to see those wounds; they don't want to be reminded of anything about how far they have drifted away from themselves - from who they truly are.

They have tried hard to forget, preoccupied themselves with trivia, making all kinds of efforts to forgive & forget themselves. Somehow, they have managed a certain identity in the world - to wear a kind of mask, a persona, to adopt a type of personality, pretending to be somebody that they are not.

And in being reminded... reminded of who they are, it is only to be expected that they would become angry... it is a kind of rude awakening, that they would naturally become protective & defensive - and, to go on the offensive... as in, the best defense is a good offense.

But, what is it that they are truly angry about? And just who is it? That they are truly angry with?

It is only natural... that they become angry. It is only human nature. It is human psychology.... to be protective, to be defensive. And, on occasion, to be offensive to others.

They need patience. They need understanding. They need compassion. For the transition to take place. It is what is needed. And, with that, there is no lack.

Maggie
16th November 2018, 03:47
The distance between the 'real' man & the man as he exists in this world today has become almost unbridgeable. Man has drifted so far away from his own reality, that he has pretty much forgotten how to find the way to get back home.



It's so important to factor in how dreadfully we have suffered form stress induced living in survival when we are meant to live in creation.

WgZmtLlqVBI

zeGkkSXehFo

Dreamtimer
16th November 2018, 11:15
"...living in survival when we are meant to live in creation."

What a great phrase.

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 11:31
The distance between the 'real' man & the man as he exists in this world today has become almost unbridgeable. Man has drifted so far away from his own reality, that he has pretty much forgotten how to find the way to get back home.

Indeed a valuable lesson that one would hope was learned in 3rd grade. It seems many are taught but few are learned... :)

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 11:38
Such a beautiful philosophy as this shouldn't go unnoticed, notice the openness to individual man/woman and its inherent compassion for the 'other':

- OSHO -

Killing the buddha

SATO-KAISEKI WAS VERY MUCH DISTURBED BY THE IMPLICATIONS OF COPERNICUS"

HELIOCENTRIC THEORY, WHICH, OF COURSE, WAS INCONSISTENT WITH THE OLD
BUDDHIST COSMOLOGY IN WHICH MOUNT SUMERU OCCUPIES THE CENTER OF THE
UNIVERSE. HE REASONED THAT IF THE BUDDHIST VIEW OF THE COSMOS WERE PROVED
FALSE, THE TRIPLE WORLD, AND THE TWENTY-FIVE FORMS OF EXISTENCE WOULD BE
REDUCED TO NONSENSE - RESULTING IN THE NEGATION OF BUDDHISM ITSELF. SO
HE IMMEDIATELY SET ABOUT WRITING A BOOK IN DEFENCE OF THE MOUNT SUMERU
POSITION, SPARING HIMSELF NO EFFORT.

WHEN HE HAD FINISHED THE WORK HE TOOK IT AT ONCE TO MASTER EKIDO AND
PRESENTED IT TRIUMPHANTLY.

AFTER LEAFING THROUGH THE FIRST FEW PAGES THE MASTER THRUST IT BACK,
SHAKING HIS HEAD AND SAYING: 'HOW STUPID! DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT THE AIM
OF BUDDHISM IS TO SHATTER THE TRIPLE WORLD AND THE TWENTY-FIVE FORMS OF
EXISTENCE? WHY STICK TO SUCH UTTERLY WORTHLESS THINGS AND TREASURE MOUNT
SUMERU? BLOCKHEAD!"

DUMBFOUNDED, KAISEKI SHOVED THE BOOK UNDER HIS ARM AND QUICKLY WENT HOME.

METAPHYSICS is nonsense, but even then it must be serving some object, otherwise it would not have existed - so long. Man finds himself helpless - in a strange world, unfamiliar... not only unknown, but unknowable also. This darkness, this cloud of unknowing, disturbs the human mind tremendously. Somehow he has to console himself. Somehow he has to create knowledge.

Even if that knowledge is not true knowledge, it will give an appearance that you are grounded. It will give an appearance that you are not absolutely helpless. You can pretend through it that you are not a stranger in this world - a chance, a coincidence - but a master. At least you can play with words and do whatsoever you like with words and can create a false illusion of your power.

This is what metaphysics has always been doing. It gives you a sense of power where in fact no power exists in you. It gives you an illusion of knowledge where no knowledge really exists.

The very word 'god' becomes substantial. Just by using the word 'god', you feel as if you are doing something, as if you are relating to existence, as if you are not alone, a helpless child on the earth, but a father is taking care of you in heaven - continuously watching, worrying about you, about your welfare.

This is a very childish attitude - but man is helpless. And there are very few men who really become mature. Men remain childish.

And remember the difference between childishness and the innocence of children. To be childish is to be stuck somewhere. To be like children is to be simply innocent, flowing, with no blocks in your being.

Man remains childish. The psychological age remains around about twelve; it never goes beyond that. You may become sixty, seventy, eighty - your physical body goes on moving in time - but your mind is stuck somewhere around about ten or twelve at the most.

One thing: metaphysics - words like 'god', 'nirvana', 'enlightenment', almost become things. You start believing in words. If somebody suddenly shouts, 'Fire!' a fear arises in you; you start running.

You can create a nuisance in any theatre at night. When the lights are put off, suddenly shout, 'Fire!

Fire!' and people will start running.

The very word 'fire' creates the illusion as if there is fire and life is in danger. The very word 'lemon'...

think about it, meditate on it, and saliva starts flowing in your mouth. The very word 'lemon'? It has nothing in it. But man has become addicted to words.

There is a school of linguists called The General Semantics Group, founded by Alfred Korzybski.

They have a little song; it is relevant. Their song is:

Oh, the word is not the thing,

the word is not the thing.

Hi ho the derry-o

the word is not the thing.

That is their essential teaching.

Of course, you cannot be burned by the word 'fire', and you cannot get wet from the word 'water'.

But the word 'god', the word 'religion', the word 'christ', the word 'buddha'? How many people have sacrificed their lives for these words?

Somebody insults christianity - what is he doing? Christianity is a word - but christians are offended; there is going to be bloodshed. Humanity has been fighting and fighting for words - 'country', 'liberty', 'socialism', 'the flag' - and millions of people have died. Words have become more significant than life itself. This is a sort of madness.

So metaphysics is not only nonsense, it is also madness - of course, with a method. It is very methodological. Metaphysicians go on building skyscrapers of words - the tower of babel. They go on building it.

And once you are caught in the words, the reality recedes farther away from you. You start living behind a wall of words. And a wall of words is stronger than any wall. Even a wall of stones, rocks, is not so strong.

The strength of words lies in their being transparent: you can go on looking through them and you will never become aware that you are looking through words. They are almost invisible, transparent - like pure glass. You can stand near a window. If the glass is really pure, you will not become aware of the glass. You will think that the window is open and you are seeing the sky and the trees and the sun rising, and you will never become aware that there is a glass between you and the reality.

Metaphysics is a glass. It goes on hiding you from reality, and it goes on distorting reality.

People cling to words because they don't know what reality is. So they start believing in words - it is a make-believe. At least it gives a sense that you know. When you use the word 'god', suddenly you feel as if you know god. You don't know anything about god, you only know the word 'god'. That too you have only heard, but it has become your foundation rock.

One Dutch poet and thinker, Huub Oosterhuis, has written in his diary: I heard someone crying 'God' in a broken voice, and I saw someone else muttering. I asked him, 'What are you muttering about?' He said, 'I am praying to god,' but neither of them could tell me whether he had received any answer. 'Then why do you both keep calling upon him? When the answer has never come to you, why do you go on praying?' I asked. They both answered, 'Keeping quiet is even worse."

You go on praying, you go on believing, because to live without belief needs tremendous courage.

You go on praying because just keeping quiet, you become more afraid.

Have you watched yourself? Sometimes when passing through a lonely street on a dark night, you start singing and whistling. What are you doing? That is metaphysics. You are creating a sense that you are not alone. Whistling, listening to your own voice, gives a feeling as if somebody else is there also. It warms you up.

Singing - and if you are a religious person, then praying - and you feel that god is there and everything is okay. For the moment you become occupied in your singing, in your praying, in your utterances, in your whistling. You become so occupied that you forget that the night is dark, and the street is lonely and there is danger everywhere.

Because of death, man goes on whistling. That whistling is metaphysics. One goes on avoiding the fact that death is. One goes on avoiding the fact that your life may just be a chance coincidence.

There may be no creator. There may be nobody who is controlling. Once you understand that there is nobody who is controlling, you will be in a panic. Then anything can go wrong, any moment, and you will not be able to even complain. There is nobody to complain to.

Metaphysics creates a dream world around you, of beautiful words - heaven, paradise, for you; hell for others. Hell for the enemies, heaven for you. These are wish-fulfillments.

Psychologists have become aware of a certain state which every child has to pass. Have you watched small children? They become addicted to certain things - a rag-doll, or a piece of blanket, or anything will do - the thing is immaterial. Whatsoever is handy, they will catch hold of it, and by and by that certain object becomes almost sacred, religious. You cannot take that object away without hurting the child. He will go to sleep with the rag-doll. Every child is a Linus with his blanket.

It gives security.

And that object is not an ordinary object - it has a special quality to it. It has to be understood, because the whole metaphysics is the blanket of the child, the rag-doll.

If you take the rag-doll, the child cannot go to sleep; he is missing something. That is his TM, transcendental meditation. That is his prayer - that rag-doll is his god.

To you, that rag-doll seems outside. To the child, it is not outside his being; it is part of his innermost being. That rag-doll exists somewhere on the boundary of inside and outside. The outside is the world of objects and the inside is the world of your being, and that rag-doll exists just on the boundary, part of both. In a sense, part of the world; in a sense, part of your innermost being. It is the most strange thing in the world - but it gives security, it protects you. You never feel alone; you are always occupied.

It becomes a ritual. The first thing in the morning the child will look for is his rag-doll. If it is there then everything is okay; things are in their place. He goes to sleep with it; first thing in the morning, he looks for it. If the rag-doll is there then everything is still okay; nothing is disturbed. That rag-doll is his world.

He has systematized the world. The world is vast and the child is impotent. He cannot boss over the world, but he can boss over the rag-doll. With the rag-doll, he becomes a master. With the world, he is just a helpless child in the hands of others... too big too incomprehensible.

With the rag-doll, he is no more a small child; he is somebody big, a boss. He can do whatsoever he wants with the rag-doll: he can throw it, he can be angry at it, he can beat it. Then he can praise it and persuade it and love it and hug it and kiss it. And whatsoever he wants he can do, and the rag doll is absolutely impotent. He is the absolute master of the situation.

All metaphysics is of the same quality. Your gods or your rag-dolls... your Linus is still holding a piece of blanket.

If you really want to know what life is, all rag-dolls have to be dropped, shattered. All illusions have to be shattered so that you can become capable of knowing what truly is. All make-believes have to be dropped.

People go on hiding behind their make-believes. They are your caves. No light enters, no fresh air comes - but you feel protected. Your beliefs almost become your death - but still you feel protected.

That's why I always say that a religious man is the most courageous man. in the world. And there is no other way to live life than to be ready to face the danger of it.

I have heard an anecdote:

"During a yiddish play, the curtain fell suddenly and the manager of the theatre stepped out before the audience, in the last degree of agitation.

'Ladies and gentlemen,' he said, 'I'm distressed to have to tell you that the great and beloved actor, Mendel Kalb, has just had a fatal heart-attack in his dressing-room and we cannot continue."

Whereupon a formidable, middle-aged woman in the balcony rose and cried out, 'Quick! Give him some chicken soup!"

The manager, surprised, said, 'Madam, I said it was a fatal heart attack. The great Mendel Kalb is dead."

The woman repeated, 'So quick! Give him some chicken soup."

The manager screeched in desperation, 'Madam! The man is dead! What good will chicken soup do?"

And the woman shouted back, 'What harm?'"

All metaphysics... at the most, one thing can be said in its favour - it cannot do any harm. It is chicken soup to a dead man. Nothing good comes out of it. Nothing can come out of it - mere words, mere play of words. Nothing good can come out of it. Of course, no harm also. It is a futile activity; not even harm comes out of it.

And remember, something can be harmful only if it can be beneficial also. If it cannot be harmful, it cannot be beneficial. If something can be beneficial then it can be harmful also; then it depends on how it is used. Poison is harmful: it can be beneficial, it can become medicinal. It depends on how you use it.

But with metaphysics, there are mere words. But the human mind tends to believe in words. By and by it completely forgets that the reality is not in the words; it is beyond the words. It has to be approached through silence. It has to be approached through meditation, not through mind. If your mind goes on creating more and more rows of words, you will be continuously in a futile activity - much ado about nothing.

But why do people cling to their metaphysical attitudes? They cling, because if they drop those metaphysical attitudes - they call them philosophies, religion, christianity, hinduism, buddhism - if you drop them, suddenly you are naked. If you drop them, suddenly your trembling child is there - without the rag-doll. If you drop them, then you don't know who you are. If you drop them, suddenly you lose your identity. Your name, your form, everything starts disappearing... you start falling into an abyss - that is the fear.

People go on clinging to words. Words create more words. Words create more questions and more answers are needed, and then answers create more questions again, and so on and so forth.

There is a story of a workman who had been mortally wounded:

"A priest was sent for, and he began his ministrations by asking, 'Do you believe in god the father?

Do you believe in god the son? And do you believe in god the holy ghost?"

The man looked at those around him and murmured, 'Here am I dying and he asks me riddles.""

Life is continuously in the hands of death. Don't waste time in words and riddles.

Buddha used to say, 'I see you in great danger, and you go on wasting your time in solving riddles which have nothing to do with reality.' He used to say, 'You are like a man who has been wounded by a poisonous arrow, and who is lying down there. The physician comes and wants to take the arrow out of his body, but the man is a great philosopher and he says, "Wait. First I have to come to a conclusion whether the arrow is real or illusory, whether the world is real or illusory, maya. First I have to come to a decision whether the arrow has been thrown at me by accident, or whether somebody has done it purposely. Why did god create the world? Is there somebody who has created the world?" The fatally wounded philosopher asks, "Wait! First convince me whether life is worth saving or not.""

Buddha used to tell this story again and again, and he used to say, 'When I see you, I see the same man in you."

Your life is fleeting. The water of life is slipping through your fingers - any moment and death may strike - and you are trying to solve metaphysical puzzles? - Who created the world? Whether anybody created it or not? Who is god? What is his form?

People go on constantly discussing, debating. It seems they are avoiding something through these discussions. They are avoiding existence. They are trying to remain occupied in something so that the reality of life and death is not encountered.

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 11:46
According to this guy, one should suffer from depression in order to avoid being ordinary...lol, this guy is cracked.

In a conversation with a Muslim from Palestine, he mentioned that he lived among a sect of 'somethings' whose prophet buys them American businesses when they convert to the cult. Pretty interesting religious philosphy there. I wonder how OSHO managed to accumulate his 47 Rolls-Royce fleet?

PurpleLama
16th November 2018, 12:02
Osho was a modern conveyor of ancient teaching, and he definitely cashed in on that. One wonders if without his covert pursuit of material comfort, which flies in the face of much of the teachings he brought into the western consciousness, if he would have reached so far into western culture. I've read The Book of Secrets, and bits and pieces were invaluable in the cultivation of my own consciousness.

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 12:47
Hi PL,

I'm curious what your religious/spiritual/philosophical origin is? The reason I'm curious is because this OSHO dude seems hostile to everything but his own aims. It doesn't seem healthy to buy into his worldview. For me, it is abhorrent...contrary to the goal of the elevation of humanity. That's not a criticism of you at all...just my viewpoint of 'it'.

PurpleLama
16th November 2018, 13:09
Well, the Book of Secrets was a translation with commentary of some old sutra, wherein Shiva was teaching Devi a wide variety of techniques for achieving enlightenment. I actually don't know very much about Osho except for what I stated above. It wasn't meant to be a defense of him or his organization or practices. That one text was very valuable to me, 20 years ago. In some cases it was the translation, in others the commentary.

My own religious/philosophical orientation could best be described as eclectic. To put it into recent terms, I was a chaos magician before the term was coined. I've practiced various forms of magic, and have basically developed my own style, one which does not especially ascribe to any named god or God. That said, my understanding is nonetheless well informed by the best I could glean from every major religion, from Christianity, to Buddhism, to the Vedas, the Qur'an (Sufism and Rumi, especially), the Tao, Shintoism, the list goes on. Take all that, shake it up with some Robert Anton Wilson, and voila!

Add: Aldous Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy was an early influence in my own personal journey of figuring out what the hell is going on with this life. I discovered the book on my own shelf with no idea where it came from when I was 19, and it was that which set me to studying every religious and (ancient) philosophical text for the threads that connect them all.

Maggie
16th November 2018, 13:35
METAPHYSICS is nonsense, but even then it must be serving some object, otherwise it would not have existed - so long. Man finds himself helpless - in a strange world, unfamiliar... not only unknown, but unknowable also. This darkness, this cloud of unknowing, disturbs the human mind tremendously. Somehow he has to console himself. Somehow he has to create knowledge.


I have read Osho. I do think he told funny stories. What a major spiritual materialist of the 20th century!
He sure did cash in on the disturbance and the cloud of unknowing.

Personally I don't know how I could stand to get up in the morning without a sense of a "divine power" and an elevated perspective being possible to FEEL.
And as to the "security" blankets.... why NOT? if they symbolize this connection?
AND when we FEEL secure, that is when we can venture forth from superstition. Then we may uncover ever greater depths of INNER stability and peace of WHO IS THAT?

And as to Osho... did he not have dozens of automobiles? One auto is transportation. Scores of autos suggest they consoled SOMETHING in him?

Fred Steeves
16th November 2018, 15:37
And as to Osho... did he not have dozens of automobiles? One auto is transportation. Scores of autos suggest they consoled SOMETHING in him?

Isn't it interesting how much louder our actions speak than our words?

This is why I have become a big proponent of don't tell me, show me.

turiya
16th November 2018, 16:14
"Everything that I have done in my life has a purpose."

I wonder how OSHO managed to accumulate his 47 Rolls-Royce fleet?
An interesting question...
Poking around researching this... and, this is what was found.


Correction: Ninety-Six Rolls Royces

Osho and his ninety-six Rolls Royces (http://www.spiritualsatya.com/osho-and-his-ninety-six-rolls-royces/)
by Satya
November 2, 2008

http://www.spiritualsatya.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/osho-rolls-royce-787x509.jpg


Osho had always liked to live with gardens and beautiful birds and animals. He wanted a deer park to be created at Rajneeshpuram, and we were to grow “alfa-alfa” for the deer, to attract them away from the hunters. He told a story of a place in India. He used to visit near a waterfall where there were hundreds of deer. At night they would come to the lake to drink, “and their eyes would shine like a thousand flames, dancing in the dark.”

At the bottom of the garden, before Basho Pond, where black swans resided on one side of the bridge, and white on the other, there was the garage in which were the famous ninety-six Rolls Royces. In India Osho’s one Mercedes created an uproar, but in America it took almost a hundred Rolls Royces to achieve the same effect.

For many people these cars were a barrier between them and Osho. They could not see past the cars.

It is said that Sufi masters create disguises so that they may go about their business unrecognized and do not have to waste time with people who are not seekers.

“There was no need for ninety-six Rolls Royces. I could not use ninety-six Rolls Royces simultaneously – the same model, the same car. But I wanted to make it clear to you that you would be ready to drop all your desires for truth, for love, for spiritual growth to have a Rolls Royce. I was knowingly creating a situation in which you would feel jealous.”

“The function of a master is very strange. He has to help you come to an understanding of your inner structure of consciousness: it is full of jealousy.”

“…Those cars fulfilled their purpose. They created jealousy in the whole of America, in all the super-rich people. If they were intelligent enough, then rather than being my enemies they would have come to me to find a way to get rid of their jealousy, because it is their problem. Jealousy is a fire that burns you, and burns you badly.” (Beyond Psychology)

“Everything that I have done in my life has a purpose. It is a device to bring out something in you of which you are not aware.” …Osho

Source: My Diamond Days with Osho (https://www.amazon.com/Diamond-days-Osho-Prem-Shunyo/dp/B0054ESU5E) by ma prem shunyo

________________________________


Osho: "93 Roll Royces... They were not mine."

And, the following from another site...


Anand Sharma (https://www.quora.com/profile/Anand-Sharma-145)
Updated Sep 17, 2018·
Author has 54 answers
and 91.1k answer views


Osho clocked up 93 whilst in Rajneeshpuram.
Partly a crazy joke, a spoof.
The cars were all exactly the same model.

This mirrored American consumerism, where people tend to buy too much of the same things, more than they actually need.

Lots of people did get the cosmic comedy. The Rolls, however, were not just a joke on the part of Osho, or a raised finger at the traditional spiritual values of aesthetcism and poverty. They were also a device.

Just as he created devices to attract people, so he created them for the occasional dispersing of the many there for the wrong reasons. Back in the sixties Osho had attracted thousands of followers, and many of them were Gandhians. But Osho wanted to find disciples, people he could work with on an energetic level, not just people were interested in him intellectually.

So when he began to talk against Gandhi, many Gandhians left and only the real disciples amongst the Gandhians remained.

During the seventies he had again attracted many thousands of people.

He had said that he had gone into public silence in 1981 partly to put off those who were only intellectually following him:


“I have found my people and I have to arrange a silent communion, which will help in two ways: those who cannot understand silence will drop out. That will be good. That will be a good weeding; otherwise they will go on clinging around me because of the words, because their intellect feels satisfied. And I am not here to satisfy their intellect. My purpose is far, far deeper, of a different dimension.

So these days of silence have helped those who were just intellectually curious, rationally interested in me, to turn their back. And secondly, it has helped me to find my real, authentic people who are not in need of words to be with me. They can be with me without words. That's the difference between communication and communion.” (1984)

The classic practitioners of the art of the device have been Zen and Sufi masters, particularly the Naqshbandi school, where George Gurdjieff ., a major influence on Osho, got many of his ideas. Osho's stories about them include Zen Master Nansen pouring overflowing tea for a visiting intellectual whose head was similarly overflowing with ideas about the path; Gurdjieff's filling his devotees up with rich food and alcohol until they lost their cultured ways and inhibitions, or telling them to dig a hole and then fill it back in; the Tibetan Buddhist Milarepa's master Marpa getting him to build and take down one house after another. And so on.

One of Osho’s main teachings was a non-seriousness and playfull approach to life and the Rolls Royces really drove that home. It made sannyasins impossible to take themselves too seriously.

Another of Osho’s main teachings was to love the outer world around us and treat the earth as sacred, as well as the inner world .

This idea wasn’t entirely original. Sri Aurobindo, a well respected Indian philosopher and spiritual master had also a similar philosophy of creating a paradise on earth as well as remaining transcendental, and believed in evolutionary spirituality and integration between the material and spiritual realms.

Osho’s vision was to create ‘Zorba the Buddha’, a spirituality that could celebrate the earth completely, whilst becoming transcendental and rich in the the inner world through meditation.

Osho had later said:


“It is part of my whole device to change the very structure of human consciousness.

The past has revered poverty, asceticism, masochistic attitudes.

A man was respected if he was renouncing all that is pleasant, all that is comfortable.

He was respected for torturing himself; the greater the torture, the greater the respect.

The whole human past is masochistic, and all the religions have contributed to this insanity.

My effort is to change such a vast past and its influence. So it has been only a device. I have not been creating desires for materialistic things in people; they are there without anybody's creating them.

Yes, they have been repressed so deeply that people have even forgotten that they had them. I am not creating them; I simply want to remove the cover-up, the repression, and to make the person realize that he wants a Rolls Royce more than enlightenment.

This realization will be a basic step towards enlightenment, because it will make him aware of his own reality, his greed.

There was no need for ninety-three Rolls Royces. I could not use ninety-three Rolls Royces simultaneously -- the same model, the same car.

But I wanted to make it clear to you that you would be ready to drop all your desires for truth, for love, for spiritual growth to have a Rolls Royce.

I was knowingly creating a situation in which you would feel jealous. The function of a master is very strange. He has to help you come to an understanding of your inner structure of consciousness: it is full of jealousy.”

“A deep unconsciousness, a great blindness exists, and I am fighting against a mountainous unconsciousness, darkness.

Naturally they will be very much annoyed.

They would have loved me, they would have worshipped me.

And it was so easy for me to do what they wanted, but then I would have been continuing the old misery, the old disease, the old stupidity.

I decided to be unrespectable, but not to help any nonsensical value.

It is a very simple thing to see why ascetics -- self-destructive people engaged in a kind of slow suicide -- have been respected; it is because it is unnatural, because you cannot do it.

They are doing something which you cannot do. If somebody is standing on their head on the road, there will be a crowd immediately, but you are walking on your legs -- no crowd will be there!

What is that man doing that attracts the crowd? He is doing something that the crowd cannot do.

He is proving mind over body, he is proving spirit over nature. Torturing his body he is proving that he is not the body, it does not affect him.

By fasting, not sleeping, or standing for days he is proving that what you cannot do he can do; he is superior to you.

You also can do what he is doing, you just have to be a little stupid, you just have to be a little suicidal, destructive.

All that you need is a certain pleasure in pain and you can become a great spiritual saint.

“I will be condemned, I will be criticized. Every religion, every tradition, every morality, every ethical code is going to condemn me. That does not surprise me! I expect it, because what I am saying and doing is changing the very course of human consciousness.

I don't think that by torturing yourself you can meditate more easily; on the contrary, if your body is pleasantly at ease you can meditate more easily.”

“My whole effort is to make a fresh beginning. It is bound to create condemnation of me from all over the world.

But it doesn't matter -- who cares! I care only for those who are ready to change the very course of human consciousness.

I will offend others, I will annoy others, I will irritate others, I will create jealousy in others. These are part of my devices. I am really exposing them.

If they have any intelligence they will understand it.

Ninety-three Rolls Royces... but I have not looked back at them, at what happened.

They were not mine, and I am as happy without them as I was with them. I never went to see those Rolls Royces in the garage. The director of my garage, Avesh, is here. I went on saying to him, "One day I am coming," but that day never came.

I have never seen those cars together. It was he who would bring a car for a one-hour drive, it was his choice. And I have not looked back.” (Emphasis mine.)

Beyond psychology (https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Psychology-Talks-Uruguay-Osho/dp/8172611951) (Talks in Uruguay, 1986)

Source (https://www.quora.com/profile/Anand-Sharma-145)

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 16:30
lol...yes, that's strange alright. Particularly, if anyone 'buys' that explanation. Even his cohort wouldn't speak to that one. Ostensibly, in the effort to reconcile his abusive nature and his 'empty words'.

turiya
16th November 2018, 16:50
Future proves past...

lol...yes, that's strange alright. Particularly, if anyone 'buys' that explanation. Even his cohort wouldn't speak to that one. Ostensibly, in the effort to reconcile his abusive nature and his 'empty words'.

And so, there ya go...


“I will be condemned, I will be criticized. Every religion, every tradition, every morality, every ethical code is going to condemn me. That does not surprise me! I expect it, because what I am saying and doing is changing the very course of human consciousness.

I don't think that by torturing yourself you can meditate more easily; on the contrary, if your body is pleasantly at ease you can meditate more easily.”

“My whole effort is to make a fresh beginning. It is bound to create condemnation of me from all over the world.

But it doesn't matter -- who cares! I care only for those who are ready to change the very course of human consciousness.

I will offend others, I will annoy others, I will irritate others, I will create jealousy in others. These are part of my devices. I am really exposing them.

If they have any intelligence they will understand it."

Beyond psychology (https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Psychology-Talks-Uruguay-Osho/dp/8172611951) (Talks in Uruguay, 1986)

Emil El Zapato
16th November 2018, 22:34
Intelligence may understand it, but the spirit will be revolted by it.

Dreamtimer
16th November 2018, 23:36
Isn't it interesting how much louder our actions speak than our words?

This is why I have become a big proponent of don't tell me, show me.

That's what teachers have to learn/do...show rather than tell. A good teacher does that.

Dreamtimer
17th November 2018, 10:35
By fasting, not sleeping, or standing for days he is proving that what you cannot do he can do; he is superior to you.

You also can do what he is doing, you just have to be a little stupid, you just have to be a little suicidal, destructive.


But it doesn't matter -- who cares! I care only for those who are ready to change the very course of human consciousness.

I will offend others, I will annoy others, I will irritate others, I will create jealousy in others. These are part of my devices. I am really exposing them.


I have not studied or read the guy. I like these lines.

And they go to show how people so often see what they want to see. Something I have a lot of experience with.

Emil El Zapato
17th November 2018, 13:35
Classic psychopathy, DT...this guy is among the worst of the worst.

Dreamtimer
17th November 2018, 14:49
Good thing I never wanted any gurus.

turiya
17th November 2018, 17:56
"But the resentment, the anger, is blind...."

One wonders if without his covert pursuit of material comfort, which flies in the face of much of the teachings he brought into the western consciousness, if he would have reached so far into western culture. I've read The Book of Secrets, and bits and pieces were invaluable in the cultivation of my own consciousness.

Not so sure that he was hiding much of anything from anybody... as in being "covert"... as, he was anything but shy, or sly, when it came to displaying gifts that people had given to him. Below are a couple of the diamond studded watches that followers had gifted to him...


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vKcziM-EfeQ/hqdefault.jpg

There is this following photo of his wrist displaying one of his diamond studded watches. Its on the cover of one of the books he has authored. Certainly, nothing "covert" about this.


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/rmcAAOSwqfZaidKQ/s-l640.jpg

From somewhere... I heard that all those Rolls Royces were also gifts to him from the very rich that followed his teachings.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/nintchdbpict000393943669.jpg?strip=all&w=800

In fact, I have found this particular video interview by a journalist asking him this very question...


One thing, I think, people on the outside remember about you - when they read stories about you & see you on television - is the fact that you own so many, or have so many, Rolls Royces. Why is that?


OSHO: I Am the Rich Man's Guru
(Dec 1, 2010)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=294&v=H0O9IK8bxM8
Other quotes regarding Rolls Royces...

Why do you like your Rolls Royces so much?


"I have tried all kinds of cars; and even Rolls Royce has many types and I have tried them too. Their best is the Corniche, but it doesn't suit me. It is a question of my back. I need a certain kind of chair — I use only this chair. It has been made by my sannyasins exactly to give support to my back, because doctors have said that they cannot do anything more.

Experts from England were called to India. They tried hard, and they said, "It is impossible. You will have to live with it." It was just a coincidence that one of the models of Rolls Royce, Silver Spur, suited me. The driver's seat in that car fits perfectly, gives me no trouble. Naturally, my people love….

They don't belong to me, those cars—nothing belongs to me. I am the poorest man in the whole world, living the richest life possible. My people love me; they want to do something for me.

All those cars belong to the commune. They have made them available to me for one hour each day. I don't know which car they are bringing, but one thing is certain, that I can be comfortable only in a Silver Spur. And they love me so much that they are trying to have three hundred and sixty-five Rolls Royces, one for every day. And I say, "Why not? A great idea!"…

They have arranged ninety Rolls Royces, and I know they will be able to manage three hundred and sixty-five." [last210]

Another questioner asks the following...


People are very much interested in your Rolls Royces. What do You want to prove with this, so many cars and so much luxury around You?

"Why are people concerned? Then certainly they need it; then more Rolls Royces will be here. Until they stop asking me, more and more Rolls Royces are going to be here. Now it has to be seen that it is a challenge: the day nobody asks me about Rolls Royces, they will not be coming.

People's interest in Rolls Royces shows their mind. They are not interested what is happening here. They don't ask about meditation, they don't ask about sannyas, they don't ask about people's life, love, the laughter that happens in this desert. They only ask about Rolls Royces. That means I have touched some painful nerve. And I will go on pressing it till they stop asking.

I am not a worshipper of poverty. That's what those Rolls Royces prove. I respect wealth. Nobody before me had the guts to say it. The pope cannot say that he respects wealth, although he is the wealthiest man on the earth.

I am not a hypocrite. I am the poorest man on the earth. I don't have a single cent with me. But I want to show these people what attracts their mind. If there were no Rolls Royces here, perhaps there would be nothing for the whole world to ask about me, about you, about meditation, about initiation into sannyas, about love, about anything. It is for those idiots that I am keeping all those Rolls Royces, because they cannot move their eyes away from those Rolls Royces. And meanwhile I will go on pouring other things in their minds. Without those Rolls Royces they would not have asked a single question.

Those Rolls Royces are doing their work. Every idiot around the world is interested in them. And I want them to be somehow interested—in anything in Rajneeshpuram. Then we will manage about other things.

So tell those people—when anybody asks, tell them that "These Rolls Royces are for you idiots. Otherwise you are not interested in anything."

Once they stop asking about Rolls Royces, then I will have to think of something else, whether to have rockets which are going to the moon…. I will have to think of something else." [last403]

A statement given about the Rolls Royces & a bishop of a local church...


"I received a letter from a bishop of Wasco County, who had been for almost five years condemning my Rolls Royces. In every Sunday sermon he was not preaching Jesus Christ, he was preaching me and my Rolls Royces. The day I was leaving he wrote a letter to me, "Now you are leaving, it will be great kindness on your part if you can donate one Rolls Royce to this church." Now, this shows the man….

I informed him, "Would you like all ninety-three, or only one?"
And a letter came, "If you can give all ninety-three, that is just the right thing. You are really great. I'm very sorry that I condemned you for five years. You are a man to be worshiped."

It is a very strange world if you understand people: whatever they are saying shows more about them than it shows about the person they are talking about."[pilgr12]

And another statement regarding some people that were once followers...


"Just the other day Anando was showing me one book published against me in Australia by a couple who have been sannyasins for three years and have been in the commune. But just looking at their ideas, it seems they have never seen me. They are saying that they were working, working hard, and with their work I was purchasing Rolls Royces. You can see the absurdity: their work was not bringing any money. Their work was making their own houses to live in, the roads—which were needing money, not producing money. But in their mind—and for all those three years also—they must have been resentful.

Those Rolls Royces were not produced by the commune. They were presents from outside, from all over the world. And I was not their owner—I had given them to the commune. They were commune property, and I have not brought any of them with me; I have left them with the commune. Everything that I had has been left with the commune. I never owned anything. But there must have been the idea that they are earning money, and I am wasting money. That is their resentment.

What money were you earning? In fact you needed money to make houses, to make roads, to make a dam—a dam needed two and a half million dollars to make. You were contributing your labor, but we were not creating money out of it so that I could purchase Rolls Royces, so that I could purchase anything. I have not purchased anything from the money produced by the commune because the commune never produced any money. The commune was absorbing money.

In fact all my royalties, all my books, all their profits were going to the commune. The situation is just the opposite—that I had given everything to the commune. Now, four hundred books in different languages were bringing millions of dollars in royalties, and those royalties were going to the commune.

If I had wanted to purchase Roll Royces, I could have purchased my own Rolls Royces, as many as I wanted, just out of my royalties.

But the resentment, the anger, is blind. In the commune we invested two hundred million dollars. Those sannyasins perhaps think they had brought two hundred million dollars there! Without me and the people who love me around the world, those two hundred million dollars would not have been possible." [psychology24]

Emil El Zapato
17th November 2018, 23:54
From somewhere... I heard that all those Rolls Royces were also gifts to him from the very rich that followed his teachings.

Not an approach I would employ on the road to enchantment with the words of a would be 'I am great and powerful' philosopher.

Dreamtimer
18th November 2018, 02:11
How many of his followers actually learned his lessons? There were those giving gifts - to what end? There were those in the commune absorbing and using the money - to what end? There was the guru bringing in the money - to teach and bring enlightenment, and live...

He created an enterprise out of his spirituality. So did L Ron Hubbard.

I was reminded of the article (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/9965-The-Cosmic-Emporium?p=842003709&viewfull=1#post842003709) about jealousy (related to resentment) which helped provide an evolutionary leap. Perhaps this guru was inadvertently helping evolution.

turiya
18th November 2018, 13:58
I was reminded of the article (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/9965-The-Cosmic-Emporium?p=842003709&viewfull=1#post842003709) about jealousy (related to resentment) which helped provide an evolutionary leap. Perhaps this guru was inadvertently helping evolution.

Yes, the 'evolution' in human consciousness.

Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us. :)

Aragorn
18th November 2018, 14:06
Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us. :)



"If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

(Zen quote)

turiya
18th November 2018, 14:23
"If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

(Zen quote)

Exactly.

I think that is in reference to whatever anybody else has said, or is saying. That would include that which has been written, as in scriptures, or in any other so-called 'holy book'. Forget about what others are saying, or have said, just following your own path, listen to your own inner guide. Because, that guidance is there, one just needs the ears to hear what its saying. As in having a quiet mind.

Emil El Zapato
18th November 2018, 14:30
I guess it could be convincingly argued that some are born to sadomasochism...i.e. "Kill Buddha" - Linji. Count me out, i'm more into, yeah, you're a conventional idiot but very lovable... :)

Iconoclasm
Linji is reputed for being iconoclastic, leading students to awakening by hitting and shouting.

Three Mysterious Gates
Chán faced the challenge of expressing its teachings of "suchness" without getting stuck into words or concepts. The alleged use of shouting and beating was instrumental in this non-conceptual expression - after the students were well-educated in the Buddhist tradition.

Linji is described as using The Three Mysterious Gates to maintain the Chán emphasis on the nonconceptual nature of reality, while employing sutras and teachings to instruct his students:

The First Gate is the "mystery in the essence", the use of Buddhist philosophy, such as Yogacara to explain the interpenetration of all phenomena.
The Second Gate is the "mystery in the word", using the Hua Tou[a] for "the process of gradually disentangling the students from the conceptual workings of the mind".
The Third Gate is the "mystery in the mystery", "involving completely nonconceptual expressions such as striking or shouting, which are intended to remove all of the defects implicit in conceptual understanding".

- wiki - The One Source

Aragorn
18th November 2018, 14:56
"If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

(Zen quote)

Exactly.

I think that is in reference to whatever anybody else has said, or is saying. That would include that which has been written, as in scriptures, or in any other so-called 'holy book'. Forget about what others are saying, or have said, just following your own path, listen to your own inner guide. Because, that guidance is there, one just needs the ears to hear what its saying. As in having a quiet mind.

Absolutely. This is why it is so important to put in the effort to know oneself. Sadly enough — and I don't know whether this is indigenous to the human soul, whether it's a consequence of the society we live in, or whether it could perhaps be a combination of both — most people never take the time to get to know themselves. Instead, they are usually critical and demanding of everyone around them, while at the same time constantly running away from themselves, as well as from their responsibilities.

People's consciousness appears to have fallen back into a hypnotic alpha state, similar to when one is watching a soap opera on television. I observe a worrisome mental disconnect among people between themselves and the reality that they're part of. They consume their environment, without realizing that they are just as much part of it as everyone else, and that their own actions have consequences too, just like everyone else's. Everything is always someone else's fault — even though they're usually quick to claim (and boast) their own achievements.

Going out on a limb now, it's almost as if people's higher self — for whatever part of one's being fits that description — is thinking "Oh well, never mind. I'll get it right in a next life. There's plenty more of them to come anyway." They just don't seem to be taking anything seriously — not life, nor other people, and not even themselves.

Not to turn this thread into a discussion of my own soul origins — I've already elaborated on that subject on other threads — but to myself (and others like me), the above-described disrespect for one's own presence in Creation is both incomprehensible and shocking. :hmm:

Fred Steeves
18th November 2018, 15:11
Seems to me that this man never wanted people to be following him, as in 'followers'. But, to follow that guru that is found within each & every one of us. :)

I don't know man, the evidence most certainly doesn't point in that direction. Yes, that's him driving in both pictures folks.

2282

2283

They weren't all squirreled away in some garage either...

2284

But look beyond the obvious discrepancies between word and deed: Where was this occurring?

Hint: Look up Rajneeshpuram, Oregon. I'll list just one sample link, but they all tell pretty much the same story. That place is reminiscent of Jonestown without the Kool-Aid ending. Then again, had Rajneesh’s (later known as Osho) not wound up being deported, who knows how it may have ended.
https://www.carmrades-blog.com/all-articles/2016/10/2/the-story-of-the-rolls-royce-guru

turiya
18th November 2018, 15:40
Absolutely. This is why it is so important to put in the effort to know oneself. Sadly enough — and I don't know whether this is indigenous to the human soul, whether it's a consequence of the society we live in, or whether it could perhaps be a combination of both — most people never take the time to get to know themselves. Instead, they are usually critical and demanding of everyone around them, while at the same time constantly running away from themselves, as well as from their responsibilities.

People's consciousness appears to have fallen back into a hypnotic alpha state, similar to when one is watching a soap opera on television. I observe a worrisome mental disconnect among people between themselves and the reality that they're part of. They consume their environment, without realizing that they are just as much part of it as everyone else, and that their own actions have consequences too, just like everyone else's. Everything is always someone else's fault — even though they're usually quick to claim (and boast) their own achievements.

Going out on a limb now, it's almost as if people's higher self — for whatever part of one's being fits that description — is thinking "Oh well, never mind. I'll get it right in a next life. There's plenty more of them to come anyway." They just don't seem to be taking anything seriously — not life, nor other people, and not even themselves.

Not to turn this thread into a discussion of my own soul origins — I've already elaborated on that subject on other threads — but to myself (and others like me), the above-described disrespect for one's own presence in Creation is both incomprehensible and shocking. :hmm:

Actually, with all the misery that can be seen going on in this world, it does provide the perfect backdrop for one to turn one's attention away from what is taking place in the outside world, and turn one's attention & focus on what is taking place within oneself.

Why this not taking place on a worldwide scale? Well, go figure on that one.... Perhaps, I need to be a bit more patient with the rest of the world.

Or, this could very well mean that things will get a lot worse before they actually get better... before that 100th monkey effect will turn the tide on this planet.

And then, this could also translate into enough people wanting to become more personally responsible (a.k.a. growing up & becoming more mature) to the point of it becoming a force that would entice a majority into wanting to conform with. To the point of it becoming (don't really like to think about in this context) more 'fashionable' to be more responsible.

A similar thing can be said regarding how 'fashionable' running has become as an exercise that people do in order to keep healthy. When I first started jogging as a form of exercise, there were very, very few people that would actually don on their gym shoes & shorts and go hit the streets running. These days, its quite amazing how the whole notion of 'running' has exploded. I see alot of people that run in the rain, that run in the snow, even.

And so, I do have my optimism up on the possibility that this notion of being more responsible on a collective worldwide scale will also become just as explosive. I still am quite the optimist for all this to actually become a reality in my lifetime, not that I have that much time left. :)

Chris
18th November 2018, 15:51
I think it is important to point out that old-style Gurus (before the influence of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) were very much like Osho. They were often immensely wealthy and influential. Kings would prostate themselves before them and a brief teaching would often result in a very valuable gift from a King or Prince. These generally included cows (the Rolls Royces of Vedic times), gold, land and even villages with peasants in them to work the land for the Guru's benefit.

I personally have no doubt that Osho had immense power and realised some profound truths. His books and talks remain very valuable. However, he was a Tantric master and as such went against all the received wisdom of mainstream thought, pretty much deliberately. He preached that wealth was a prerequisite to following a spiritual path, as someone with no money can never find the time and the peace and quiet required to devote himself to self-realisation. He taught that doing the exact opposite of what society expects you to is very valuable spiritually. Things like drunken orgies are very common amongst those that follow the tantric path.

I'm not trying to protect his moral character, he was obviously highly flawed and was deported from the US for good reason, yet I still think that his actions were largely consistent with his own philosophy and teachings, as well as that of many tantric masters that went before him. The people that did follow him gained genuine spiritual insight and mostly because of his contrarian nature.

Emil El Zapato
18th November 2018, 16:26
So OSHO is doing the regression karma thing...He started out elevated and is now living his astral karma in reverse...Works for me!

I mean no disresepect to any human being but some humans fall beneath that threshold. Those that exploit, those that condemn, those that pretend to possess knowledge that others don't (by taking advantage of the clueless). One gets the picture.

Fred Steeves
18th November 2018, 17:37
I think it is important to point out that old-style Gurus (before the influence of Christianity, Islam and Buddhism) were very much like Osho. They were often immensely wealthy and influential. Kings would prostate themselves before them and a brief teaching would often result in a very valuable gift from a King or Prince. These generally included cows (the Rolls Royces of Vedic times), gold, land and even villages with peasants in them to work the land for the Guru's benefit.

Well now Chris, that just reinforces what I have noticed over some time now, which is that nothing ever changes. Kings were no more in TRUE power then, than they are today; and, they tended to be every bit as foolish then, as they (and we as well) still do today.


He preached that wealth was a prerequisite to following a spiritual path, as someone with no money can never find the time and the peace and quiet required to devote himself to self-realisation. He taught that doing the exact opposite of what society expects you to is very valuable spiritually. Things like drunken orgies are very common amongst those that follow the tantric path.

What I've noticed is that he had a very slick way of camouflaging his Saudi Crown Prince type of life style in a false, either/or scenario: That the path to true spiritual attainment offers only either the path of being dirt poor, or the path of riches and extravagance. This blatantly and flippantly discards the third possibility of the "middle way" path.

It's also a false, either/or tactic that the savvy, modern day politician will use today: "They hate me, so I must be doing something right!" Sound familiar? :p

turiya
18th November 2018, 22:49
"Sheela & her Gang"...


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Interviews with the World Press


The following questions comes from a number of journalists assembled for a press conference with Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh at Rajneeshpuram, Oregon, September 22, 1985:

- GEORGE PARAVANANI, FREELANCE GERMAN TV
- RICHARD WAGNER, CBS NIGHTWATCH, NATIONAL TV AND
- SCOTT MILLER, NBC, CHANNEL 8, PORTLAND, OREGON...

Question: WITH REGARD TO SHEELA'S LEAVING, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO IN THE FUTURE?

A:* I never think of the future. The present is enough for me. Sheela's going is an immense relief to the commune. It is a great freedom to my people. Naturally, freedom brings its own problems. Slavery is less complex; somebody else is always responsible, you are not. You are ordered to do something, you do it -- whether it is right or wrong, that is not your responsibility. Freedom means you are responsible for its being right, if it is not right then you will be responsible, you cannot throw the responsibility on somebody else.

So freedom is always a risk. That's why most of the countries have chosen dictatorship of some kind of other. Even if they call themselves democracies it is only in the name; the basic structure is dictatorial for the simple reason because they are afraid that the people cannot take the great responsibility of freedom.

But this will settle. There is no problem in it. These people are all intelligent people. They're all graduates, most of them have master's degrees, few are Ph.D.s, few are D.Litts, many are psychologists, many are doctors, all are well-qualified. Professionally they have been successful in life; just out of love for me they have dropped their success, their professions, and have come into this desert to create a utopia, an oasis.

Sheela was a hindrance. She was creating what every power-lusty person creates: hostility amongst the neighbors. Adolf Hitler writes in his autobiography that unless you create hostility amongst your neighbor nations, you can never become strong; keep always people afraid that the enemy is going soon, soon you will be (inaudible) destroyed. That fear will keep them strong and ready to order and surrender and trust and believe anything the leader says.

I was silent for three-and-a-half years and in isolation. That gave her an opportunity. These people love me. They have nothing to do with Sheela. Sheela means nothing to them. She was just a waitress in a hotel, but I saw in her few very important things: she was very practical, very pragmatic, very clever -- and that was needed to create this commune. It was absolutely essential in the beginning. And she has contributed wholeheartedly. But only in the beginning she was useful. As the commune started growing, taking roots, she became dangerous -- and this is one very important thing to understand, that a person may be useful to a certain limit, and beyond that he can become harmful, he can be dangerous. She was useful up to a limit. She made the commune a strong. She made the commune self-sufficient. She made the commune feel protected, unafraid. But then, by and by, she started the human unconscious urge, lust for power.

She was doing everything in my name. These people were doing everything because of me. I was not available. She was representing me. So whatsoever she wanted to do, just she has to say that, "Bhagwan wants it." And my people did it.

And whatever she wanted to report to me, she reported; whatever she never wanted to report to me, she never reported. And she was the only communication.

When things became too much, she became afraid of three other persons who were also capable of approaching me -- my physician, my dentist, my caretaker.

She became afraid that these people may start informing me that, "Sheela is doing something not according to Your wish, that the meditation commune is turning into a concentration camp."

At that point she started to think how to kill these three people. She poisoned two of them, and when she poisoned them then it became clear for me that now I have to come out of my isolation and start speaking again.

And the moment I started speaking again, she started wandering into other communes in Europe, in Australia, in Japan, in Singapore, and she was rarely here. She did not want to face me. Even when she will come here, she will pretend she is sick and she is afraid she will infect me, so she will not come.

Even the last time she came, she pretended that she has cold, so she will wait three, four days, and when her cold is gone she will come to see me. But she wrote a note to me, that, "Now I don't feel excited coming here. I feel more excitement in Europe, more excitement in Australia, but I don't feel any excitement here." The person who has brought the message, her secretary, I told her, that, "Give her my message that, `Watch and find out the reason.

The reason is simply that because now I'm speaking myself, your function as a representative is finished. Your face from the television will disappear. Your voice from the radio will not be heard. And in these three and a-half years you have got a very swollen head. That's why you don't feel excited here. And if you want, for an experiment, I can come to Europe and you will not feel excited there, too. I can come to Australia or anywhere. Because there you are receiving respect because you represent me. If I come myself to Germany, then who is going to bother about you?"'

That she understood clearly, and rather than staying three days and to face me, she escaped the next day and took away twenty of her intimate colleagues who were conspirators against the commune in many crimes.

And as she left, people started opening their mouth; they were afraid.

Q:* ACCORDING TO THE REPORTS IN THE RAJNEESH TIMES AND IN THE PAPERS, SHE WAS SENT OFF AT THE AIRPORT WITH A SONG. OBVIOUSLY THEY KNEW THAT SHE WAS LEAVING. WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP HER? YOU OBVIOUSLY HAD THE AUTHORITY TO STOP HER.

A:* I had no idea that she's leaving. She left at a time when I always go for a ride. She left at four o'clock. In a plane.

Q:* IN YOUR PLANE?
A:* Yes, in my plane. And the people had no idea that she has resigned.

Q:* WELL, THEY WERE HELPING PACKING UP HER CLOTHES AND....
A:* Yes, because they had no idea. She had not informed anybody that she was leaving, that she was leaving forever.

Q:* WELL, SHE SAID, "BHAGWAN IS ONLY INTERESTED NOW IN JEWELRY AND NOT IN THE THING; I'M LEAVING."

A:* That she said only to those twenty people who were leaving with her. But the commune was absolutely unaware that she is leaving forever. And then, too, only forty people were there out of five thousand people.

Q:* SOME OF THESE FORTY PEOPLE ARE STILL HERE, WHO SANG AND CRIED AND SAID GOODBYE.

A:* Yes; there is no problem in it. It is understandable. She has been working here for three and a half years with all these people, and she had done immense work. She may have committed many crimes, but she has done much good too. It is not that everything she did was wrong, and the people who had worked with her, many may have started respecting her, loving her, but out of five thousand people, only forty people were there. So that means only twenty people were there to give her a send-off. Twenty were going with her.

Q:* WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT SHE HAD LEFT?

A:* I knew when I came back from my ride. Every day I go at two o'clock for a ride in the forest, in the mountains. When I came back then I came to know that she has left, and I was informed that she has left forever. And it was informed by her second, and she wanted that her second should be made the president of the commune. I said, "I will have to think over it. Because if she could deceive, and she could commit all these crimes, to put her second person -- you have been with her for three and a half years, you never informed me about anything going wrong. I will have to think about it."

Next day, morning, she left.

Q:* WHEN DID YOU DISCOVER THAT TAPE RECORDERS, THE HIDDEN PASSAGE? HOW DID ALL THAT HAPPEN? IT'S ALMOST LIKE A SUSPENSE CRIME STORY, A SHERLOCK HOLMES THING.

A:* It is a crime story, but there is no suspense in it. It is very simple. While she was in power, she has put on every power post -- we have many corporations, it is a big phenomenon. We have put two hundred million dollars in the commune to develop it. We have seven or nine corporations. So she has put presidents, secretaries, on each corporation of his own. In three and a half years, slowly slowly she managed all those people who were of independent mind, who were more intelligent than her, who were more capable than her, to harass them in some way or other, so that they had to leave.

The vice-chancellor of the university left, the chancellor of the university left. The woman who had collected thirty-three million dollars -- the initial money that started the commune, she had to leave, she forced her to leave because she took all power from her hands. It was so insulting that she has to leave.

Slowly, slowly she has dropped all the people who could be suspected to go against her. So naturally, the people who had left were simple, innocent people who had come here just to live with me in peace and not to get into any power politics.

So when she left, and all the gang of twenty people -- who were all criminals. I will tell you what crimes they had committed. When they all left, people started coming on their own.

Q:* THESE THREE PEOPLE WERE CLOSE TO YOU: YOUR DOCTOR, YOUR DENTIST, AND YOUR CARETAKER, HAVE BEEN WITH YOU SINCE INDIA. AND IF YOU HAD EDUCATED THEM AND BROUGHT THEM UP TO A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY, THEN THEY SHOULD HAVE OVERCOME THIS FEAR AND INFORMED YOU OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING HERE. AND INDIRECTLY, ARE YOU WILLING TO TAKE PART RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE PHENOMENON SHEELA AND WHAT HAPPENED?

A:* No responsibility. And the reason why my people could not inform me was that they were also as much uninformed as I myself. Sheela cut my whole house and the people who lived in the house from the commune. Even the guards on my house were not allowed to talk to the people of the house.

Q:* YOUR DENTIST, OR YOUR NURSE? SHE SAW YOU DAILY.

A:* Yes. They are living with me in the same house. And Sheela managed that she -- she was clever. She managed that, "Your doctor should not be part of the medical center."

Q:* BUT HE FELT THAT HE WAS POISONED.
A:* That's when I started speaking, when he was poisoned. He was poisoned in a meeting. First he was poisoned at Sheela's house.

Q:* HOW MANY MONTHS AGO? HOW MANY WEEKS AGO?
A:* Just few weeks ago.

Q:* SO THEN WHY DIDN'T HE TELL YOU IMMEDIATELY?
A:* It was impossible even for him. He felt something strange. He has taken just a cup of coffee. And you don't immediately suspect that somebody will poison you. And in a commune where you are completely devoted to the welfare of all, he could not even imagine that he will be poisoned.

My caretaker was also poisoned the same way, a cup of tea. Even she could not think....

(tape side B)
Q:* EVEN YOU GOT AN INJECTION OR A NEEDLE, IS THAT RIGHT?
A:* No; my physician got that. But my milk was poisoned, and they were poisoning it so slowly, with such minute doses, that it effects will come in years so that my death seems to be natural.

Q:* I WOULD LIKE TO QUOTE ONE OF....
A:* Just first, because your question is not answered and it will remain your mind. These people could not inform me for the simple reason she stopped the dentist to go to the dentistry because he works on my teeth so it is better that he should do editing in the house and just take care of my teeth.

Q:* SO HE'S WITH YOU ALL THE TIME?
A:* He's with me all the time.

Q:* THEN HE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TELL YOU, "LISTEN, MASTER"....
A:* No, no; but he never goes anywhere. They are cut off. You don't understand the thing. He's not going to the dentistry.... And people -- Sheela's people -- have tried in every way that these people get no information of any kind.

Q:* SO THESE THREE PEOPLE WERE AS UNAWARE AND AS CUT OFF FROM THE REST OF THE COMMUNITY?
A:* Yes. Completely cutoff.

Q:* SO THEY'D NEVER BEEN TO THE CANTEEN AND SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE?
A:* They were eating there, but everybody in the canteen was not aware what was happening, it was only a small group of these twenty people who really knew what was happening.

For example, taping. Only two electricians knew about it. Now, even they bugged my sitting room -- in front of me.

Q:* ARE YOU SCARED?
A:* No, there is no question because I have nothing to lose.

Q:* ARE YOU SCARED THAT SHE MIGHT BLACKMAIL YOU?
A:* I'm not afraid of anything, because there is nothing to blackmail me.

Q:* BECAUSE SHE WAS A LITTLE CRAZED - THAT I KNEW LONG TIME AGO.
A:* Nothing to be worried about that. But she was in a paranoia. The bugging was that perhaps somebody -- my caretaker or my dentist or my doctor -- says something, then she knows.

Q:* BUT NOT TO HOLD THE POWER OVER YOU?
A:* For me there is no question, because when I am alone I have not been speaking to the microphone.

But the question is, even she bugged my room. I don't know about electricity, what wires are for bugging. Everybody in my house knew that she's putting some new wires, and she told me that this is an emergency buzzer. "If you press it, then the guards will immediately come into the house."

So I said, "Okay, if you want. There is no emergency, but if you want to put it you can put it." And I have never touched it. The people saw it doing, but nobody is an electrician, nobody knows what they are doing. So, in the buzzer, inside, she placed a microphone.

Even the people from the government, FBI people, when they saw all the bugging that they have done, they could not believe. They said, "These people have far more sophisticated ways of bugging than Nixon had done."

Q:* YOU KNOW SHEELA OBVIOUSLY LONG TIME. THIS IS DEFINITELY NOT THE SHEELA YOU KNEW IN THE BEGINNING. SOMETHING HAPPENED TO HER.

A:* No. It is the same Sheela. What happened was just whatever she was carrying in her unconscious -- she may not have been aware, when she got the opportunity.... She was just a waitress, and now she got millions of dollars in her hands.

Her old secretary's letter yesterday has come that she had opened a private account in Switzerland in her own name. The money that was to come here slowly she was accumulating there, small parts of it; now it is forty-three million dollars.

So when she got the opportunity... just human mind. It is nothing special. I feel it, anybody else in her place would have done the same, more or less.

Q:* A QUESTION THAT MIGHT ANNOY YOU, BUT I HAVE TO PUT IT.
A:* No, nothing annoys me, as you put it.

Q:* AMONG THESE FIVE THOUSAND PEOPLE -- DOCTORS, LAWYERS, PSYCHOLOGISTS, ONE OF THEM SHOULD HAVE HAD THE GUTS TO SOMEHOW GET THE MESSAGE TO YOU. THERE'S SOMETHING FUNNY HAPPENING HERE.
A:* No; but even they were not aware. You don't understand a thing.

Q: FEAR...
No, no, they were not aware. Not fear. Otherwise, they would have approached me. There were thousands of ways to approach me. They could have phoned to my caretaker, they could have phoned to my physician, if the guards were not allowing them in. They could have managed any way.

The real thing is that what kinds of crimes she committed were such that in the community, except the people that were committing them, nobody was in any way capable to know.

For example, they burned a county house, an office in Wasco County. Now, only one person knows it who burned it. That person is with them.

Q:* THIS IS WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

A:* Now, this is very simple. It is anybody who has a little understanding will not make it, that fifty persons know that -- fifty persons know that you are burning an office. One person knows. And if he behaves in any disgusting way, or goes against, he can be killed; and he knows that -- because these people are doing that. He's part of the gang.

They killed one person. One of the street persons they killed, and simply threw the corpse out of the Rancho Rajneesh.

Q:* WHEN I CAME HERE LAST TIME, IT WAS AS IF I WERE IN AN IMMINENT JONESTOWN, I COULD FEEL IT. WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY HAVE THE COURAGE TO INDIRECTLY LET YOU KNOW THAT SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE?

A:* I don't agree. First, the fear that you felt here was a created paranoia by Sheela and her gang that the whole Oregon is to destroy you, that everybody is against you. If everybody is against you, naturally you have to have your security force, you have to have your own guns. And she was not absolutely wrong. This is how human psychology works. Wasco County people were purchasing guns suddenly. Even the Wasco County shopkeepers who sell guns reported the police that, "Such a great sale has never been there." Suddenly at the time of election, when these people were going to vote in the Wasco County, people are purchasing guns. I had finally -- even though I was in silence, Sheela brought the news to me, that what we have to do? I said, "Simply boycott the election. We are not politicians and we are not interested in American politics.

Our work is here and our work is meditation. There is no need."

But she created the fear in the people, and people could see it -- that they are moving on the county road with guns. Then naturally these people started getting ready, learning to shoot, becoming alert -- just the way it goes everywhere around the world. If Russians go on piling up nuclear weapons -- they are afraid of America, America goes on piling nuclear weapons afraid of Russia, and it seems there is no end to it.

And that's what was happening. She created hostility through her statements. Those people created hostility through their statements. And it became a very tense situation.

So if you had felt it, it was not that the commune was going to harm anybody; the commune was simply trying to defend itself. But whether you are trying to defend yourself, or harm anybody, there is an atmosphere which can -- any sensitive person can feel. But even I would not prevent it, seeing that if they are having guns. And if I stop my people having guns.... Then tomorrow, these people can be killed and I will be responsible.

Q:* BUT YOU AND I KNOW VERY WELL THAT GUNS NEVER SOLVED ANY PROBLEMS.
A:* They never solved any problem, but no guns have also never solved any problem. Just remember it, have no guns solved any problem?

Q:* IT DEPENDS HOW ONE LOOKS AT IT.
A:* No, never; not a single problem has been solved by guns, not a single problem has been solved by no guns. In fact, no problem has been solved.

Q:* I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHO IS BHAGWAN RAJNEESH?
A:* I am. (Inaudible) I am exactly what I am, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

http://www.salem-news.com/stimg/january292010/rajneeshpuram_350.jpg

INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD WAGNER FROM CBS NIGHTWATCH:

Q: DO YOU ENJOY THE ATTENTION OF ALL OF US, ALL WE REPORTERS WHO COME HERE OR WOULD YOU RATHER WE DIDN'T COME AND ASK YOU THINGS?
A:* No, I love it.

Q:* WHAT IS THE SITUATION HERE NOW? SHEELA AND THE GANG ARE GONE. WHAT IS THE MOOD? WHAT IS THE FEELING AT RAJNEESHPURAM NOW?
A:* Of great rejoicing, as if they have come out of a concentration camp. They are feeling free, unburdened. And for the first time it seems that the commune is a place of absolute freedom, love and joy.

Q:* WHICH IT IS MEANT TO BE, RIGHT?
A:* Which it is meant to be; which Sheela and her gang had destroyed.

Q:* BHAGWAN, HOW WERE THEY ABLE TO DO THAT? HOW COULD THEY DISTORT THE AIM OF THE COMMUNE?
A:* Because I was silent. I came to America in silence, and I remained for three and a-half years silent, and I wanted no information from outside world -- no newspaper, no radio, no television. And I have told Sheela to bring only absolutely essential things to me. That gave her great opportunity on three grounds:

One, she was a poor hotel waitress before, and suddenly she saw millions of dollars in her hands. Two hundred million dollars we have put in developing this oasis in the desert. It is just human. I don't condemn her that she started saving little bits in Switzerland, money that was coming from Europe, so she started accumulating her own account there. Her old secretary's letter yesterday informed me that she has accumulated forty-three million dollars.

Q:* FORTY-THREE MILLION DOLLARS SHE HAS?
A:* Yes.

Q:* -- OF MONEY THAT BELONGS TO THE COMMUNE?
A:* That belongs to the commune, that should have come here.

Q:* WHAT CAN YOU DO?
A:* We will see what we can do.

Secondly, I was silent and the people who had come here have come out of love for me. They are ready to do anything for me, and she became my representative to them. She became my symbol. Otherwise, she was just as any other sannyasin.

In India she was nobody special. Because, she was the only communication line between the commune and me - because I was in silence - I did not want to be disturbed.

Q:* IF I MAY ASK, HOW DID YOU DISCOVER WHAT SHE WAS ABOUT AFTER THE TIME?
A:* So this gave her immense power. In my name she could say anything to my people and they will follow, knowing that it is coming from me. Even if sometimes they will suspect that this cannot be from Bhagwan because it is against his teaching.

I have never taught them to believe anything. Be reasonable, be rational, and doubt everything unless you come to an inevitable reality. I am not teaching them to be part of a faith. I am trying to give them a science of inner world, which begins in doubt and ends in the experience of truth, of their own reality.

So sometimes they suspected, because Sheela was asking for surrender -- to trust everything, whatever comes comes from Bhagwan and you have to do it.

So those people who had any suspicion, she simply threw them out of the commune. The chancellor of the university - she threw out, the vice-chancellor -- all intelligent people who could see that she is getting into a power trip. The best psychologists she threw out. The people who have been devotedly in love with me for fifteen years, she harassed them in such a way, misbehaved with them, that finally they decided to leave, it was such a humiliation.

Q:* THESE PEOPLE COULDN'T COMMUNICATE WITH YOU AND TELL YOU WHAT WAS HAPPENING?

A:* Because I was not available. That was the trouble. I was in isolation, I never came into the commune, I never met anybody. So that gave her an opportunity.

And thirdly, because all those intelligent people left, she replaced her own people -- who were just puppets -- who will follow her whatsoever she said, even if she was committing crime they will be supporting her. Because their whole position was on her support, otherwise they had no reason to be there. So to keep their position they had to support her crime. So, it became a clique of twenty people, conspiring against the whole commune.

They did every kind of crime. They killed one man in the share-home program, because they were giving all those people some drug to keep them drugged so that they can vote for them, or whatsoever they said they will do.

Q:* THIS IS THEIR PACKING THE POLLS?
A:* Yes. Keep them like robots. But this man they accidentally overdosed, and he died; and they threw him just -- so inhuman -- out of the Rancho Rajneesh. The corpse was found by the police, but they could not figure it out -- from where it came, who the man was, who killed him. And it remained a mystery and died out. Only just now, when people started
revealing... when Sheela left and their fear disappeared that they will not be punished and they will not be thrown away, or perhaps they may not be even killed.... Because she killed that man and then she tried to kill three other people. That's what started the whole thing.

Q:* THIS WAS YOUR DOCTOR, YOUR DENTIST....
A:* My doctor, my dentist, and my caretaker. She was very much afraid of these three people, because they were the only ones, except her, who could approach me. So the only way was that those three should be simply finished.

First she tried to poison one of my sannyasins who has served me for fifteen years as lovingly, as carefully, that I don't think any woman is capable of. From the morning til late in the night she is just running and doing everything for me to make everything convenient. They had asked her, that, "Why don't you come once in a while to visit Sheela?"

So she went there, and just in a cup of tea they poisoned her. But she could not think of poison. It was so unnatural to think of it. She became sick, she vomited the whole night, for three days she has to rest; but still we did not think of poison -- for the simple reason because if I come at your home and you give me a cup of tea, there is no reason to believe that she will kill me. For what reason?

But then the same thing happened with my physician. Because he is a physician, he became aware that there is poison in the coffee. So he immediately went to the medical center. Other doctors were also suspicious that there is possibility of a poison, but some kind of a poison which is undetectable.

Q:* OH, THEY NEVER DISCOVERED WHAT KIND IT WAS?
A:* No. There are poisons -- they discovered, there are poisons which cannot be detected. They can be given to you, but from blood or from any source you cannot detect them.

Q:* AND THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE USING?
A:* They have been using the book. When Sheela left, in her room a whole literature on poisons, whole literature on how to murder people so that you cannot be caught, in what doses you have to give the poison, and particularly that poison which were -- medical people were suspecting, that page was underlined. So it seems they have been using that poison, no way to detect it.

Q:* IF THEY WERE USING IT AND THEY UNDERSTOOD HOW TO USE IT, WHY DIDN'T THEY USE ENOUGH TO KILL? WHY JUST USE ENOUGH TO MAKE SOMEONE SICK?
A:* Yes. The reason was that if suddenly you kill somebody who was not sick, then there will be suspicion. You have to give the poison slowly so he becomes weaker. And slowly, within three, four months he dies almost like a natural death. That was the reason. And that is given in the book, that how long you want the person to die that much dose you should give.

Q:* IS THIS BEING INVESTIGATED NOW BY THE AUTHORITIES?
A:* Yes; FBI and State Police and other agencies -- county police. They are all having an office here and people are going and revealing everything that they know.

Q:* YOU'RE COOPERATING WITH THAT?
A:* Absolutely. I am absolutely against crime, and I am all for law. Third time they again injected my doctor, and that was in a meeting. I started speaking after the second poisoning. It was still not certain, but suspicion was enough; and when I asked her, I could see on her face a little hesitation. And I told her that, "From tomorrow I am going to speak, and I am going to meet my people. Now you need not be my representative. I will represent myself." In the meeting, while I was speaking and ten thousand sannyasins were listening, they injected, just in the crowd, my doctor. In the crowd. But its such an injection that it can be done from over the robe. He felt it immediately, he pulled his robe, he showed people, he knew who has done it, and people saw blood and the mark of the injection. And one person has come as a witness, that, "Whatever the doctor says, that is the person who has done it, I have seen her doing with my own eyes." And that girl also has disappeared with Sheela's group.

After that, I made it clear to people that this group must have done more crimes. And if anybody has any information, then now it is your responsibility to expose them.

Q:* ARE PEOPLE COMING FORWARD NOW?
A:* People coming forward, so many stories that it seems just unbelievable. They have bugged even my room. And they have bugged the whole hotel. They have bugged every house they suspected that there are people who
may be one day not be with them.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WAS THE REASON FOR THIS TO STEAL MONEY? IS THAT AT THE BASE OF IT? DID THEY WANT TO TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN?
A:* No, not only that because money was already there and nobody knows, and nobody knew. This letter has come yesterday...

(Interruption for tape change)

The money they had already got there in their own name, and here they were doing all these crimes to keep the whole commune under their control. And because I started speaking, two things happened.

One, Sheela lost her big ego that she has accumulated in three and a half years, she lost her face on the television screen, her voice on the radios, her picture in the magazines, because when I'm speaking myself who is going to take interest in her interviews? She was representing me.

So since I started speaking, she went on touring Europe, Australia, Singapore, where my other communes are. There she was received with the same grandeur that she had become accustomed of -- television people coming, all media lined up, interviews. She has become a celebrity, and that is a very poisoning thing.

Q:* HAVE YOU SPOKEN WITH HER SINCE SHE LEFT BY TELEPHONE?
A:* No, I never have used telephone in my whole life.

Q:* WOULD YOU SPEAK WITH HER IN ANY WAY IF YOU COULD?
A:* No. If she comes only in front of me.

Q:* WOULD YOU SPEAK TO HER IF SHE CAME AND ASKED TO BE FORGIVEN?
A:* There is every possibility. Future is always unpredictable.

Last time she came here, she wrote a letter to me, that, "I don't feel excitement coming here" because the whole commune does not go to receive her on the airport. There are no photographers. Nobody is taking any note when she comes and when she goes. To become special and then to become again ordinary is difficult. I have every compassion for that. And if she had asked me, I would have arranged everything. I could have told my people, that "There is no problem, you can go. Have photographs, gather around her airplane, put as many garlands as she wants, why unnecessary make her unhappy.

But she never told me. She simply told, that "I feel no excitement coming here. But in Europe I feel very happy, in Australia I feel very happy."

The person who has brought the note, the second person who was always bringing notes when Sheela was absent, I told her, that "Tell her it is nothing but ego, and if she wants to see it, I can come to Europe and stay just three months there, and all her happiness will disappear. Or, if she wants, Australia. It is perfectly good. I can come to Australia and prove her what is really the reason.

The reason is, that `You are no more now getting nourishment for your ego.'

Q:* BHAGWAN, DID, DID SHE AND HER GANG STEAL SO MUCH MONEY FROM THE COMMUNE THAT THE COMMUNE COULD BE IN FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY?
A:* No, the commune can never be in financial difficulty. We have one million sannyasins around the world. And my sannyasins are all rich, all intelligent, all professional people. There is no problem: just a word from me and we can have one hundred millions immediately available. That's not a problem.

So she was just foolish; that does not make any difference to us. But she will be caught, and she will be soon in trouble. And I am certain because... she has... the second person to her has said to me the last day, that "We have certainly an account, and the rumor is not wrong, but we were keeping the account for your safety, if in any case you have to leave America, then we should keep some money there."

But I said, "If it was for my sake, at least I should be made aware of it. And how much money is there? I should be made aware of it. What is the number of your bank account? What bank it is? I don't know anything; you have never told me."

She said, "Tomorrow I will be bringing every detail." And, tomorrow she
disappeared too.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WHAT IS YOUR, YOUR STATUS VIS-A-VIS STAYING IN THE UNITED STATES? ARE YOU HERE LEGALLY? CAN YOU STAY WITH NO PROBLEM, OR DO YOU HAVE A DIFFICULTY WITH IMMIGRATION AND NATURALIZATION?
A:* No, there is no difficulty. They are having difficulties. I have been here for four years, and I will be here. And in four years they have been not able to find anything that they can say no to me. I want them to decide, this way or that. If they say yes, okay; if they say no, then I move to the courts.

They have six grounds. I have applied on five grounds, and I will fight on each ground separately. One ground will take twenty years to reach to the Supreme Court. Five grounds will take hundred years, so what problem? All so many judges will die, so many INS people will die, I myself will have died.

Perhaps they will give the green card to my grave. That will be their tribute.

Q:* ASSUMING THAT YOU WILL BE HERE AS LONG AS YOU PLEASE, HOW ARE YOU GETTING ALONG NOW WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS IN THIS PART OF OREGON? ARE YOU FRIENDS WITH THEM?
A:* From our side there is no hostility towards anybody. Sheela and her company has created hostility. That is a necessary part of any fascist mind, to create hostility with the neighbors. That creates fear, paranoia; then your own commune becomes more in your hands, more surrendered. And they know that they cannot stand alone; they can only stand with the commune. So even against their will they have to follow your orders. So more hostility you create, more your small minority becomes stronger. So that's what she was doing, but now they are gone. I don't have any hostility towards anybody. In fact in America, except red Indians, everybody is a foreigner. So what is the problem? In fact we are legally here, and you are illegally here.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT...?
A:* The Americans, the forefathers, have invaded this country. We have not invaded the country; we have purchased the land, and purchased also in a right way. We have paid seven million dollars for this land. Your forefathers paid thirty dollars for the whole area of New York. So this land is three times than New York; that means ninety dollars at the most. And remember that you may have come one hundred years before, somebody may have come two hundred years before, somebody three hundred years before -- no visa, no green card. And we are asking you on every legal ground. And foreigners are trying to prevent other foreigners -- strange, and illegal foreigners are preventing legal foreigners.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT SHEELA AND HER GROUP BRINGING THE HOMELESS PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE COUNTRY HERE AT ELECTION TIME? WAS THAT ONE OF HER PLOTS?
A:* Yes, it was a plot. They wanted to take over the county, but that, too, only just now people have started telling me. I was silent. I had no idea. Sheela has simply informed me only one thing: that they have surplus money out of the annual festival, so they want to do some humanitarian job, that's why she is bringing these people. I said, "If it is a humanitarian job, perfectly good, do it."

Now, as I have started speaking, people have revealed to me that it was not humanitarian, it was just the opposite, very inhuman. Those people were drugged completely every day. Gallons of drugs were imported from outside, so they cannot be detected here -- that you have purchased in America.

They killed one man. And then finally they wasted three million dollars on it and created so much hostility and a negative kind of publicity.

They were going again to do something like that. If I was not speaking, they would have done that too. They had made in City of Rajneesh one housing complex for five hundred people, a beautiful housing complex with separate bathrooms. And they wanted it to make an AIDS home just to create more trouble for Oregonians.

Q:* HOW CAN YOU MAKE UP TO THE LOCAL PEOPLE? HOW CAN YOU GET THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE AROUND THE COMMUNE?
A:* It will come by itself, because now there will be nobody who will be creating any hostility. It will take a little time to heal. But I stopped, immediately that it cannot be done. This is making dangerous spot for Oregon and also for your own people. Five-hundred AIDS patients will be dangerous for everybody, and we will be the closest to them, so this is simply idiotic. So I had to stop it. So now the whole housing complex is lying down there. Unnecessarily we have to keep it clean and keep it in order, and there is....

But I had made the gesture. I had told the press that we are ready to vacate City of Rajneesh, change its name back to Antelope, because there is no need.

Antelope was perfectly good. And we have got our own city, there is no need. And our people unnecessarily were being forced to live there. Every day they work here the whole day, in the night they have to go to Antelope just to show that hundred sannyasins are living there, an unnecessary trouble. And those people don't want to go; working after whole day they would like to meet their friends who are here, they would like to go to the disco, dance, sing, go to the restaurant, drink; but they had to be packed into buses and sent to Antelope. I don't want. So I had told to the press that we would like to take all of our people back, but then it is the responsibility of Antelope people that they should take their properties back....

Q:* BUY THEM BACK?
A:* If they want, yes, they should buy them back; and we are ready to give them at the same price. We have improved their property, we have made almost renovated houses, and prices have already gone high in four years, but we are ready to give them at the same price as they had sold us. The price is almost double now, so they are not going to be in any loss. We have made the city beautiful.

But the ex-mayor's news I saw, she says, that "We are not going to purchase, because our city is already destroyed by these people."

Strange people. If you don't want to purchase, then we are ready to purchase. You sell your houses and be finished, be clean. And they are in a minority, only twelve people are there. So only one-third property is now in the hands of Antelope people. If they want to sell it on reasonable market price, we will purchase it; but we will want them all to vacate. We don't want any trouble any more. Either they should purchase our properties, or we are ready to purchase their properties. But if they think that we should vacate and just let them have their properties free, they are wrong; this is stupid.

Q:* THE PEOPLE HERE CLEARLY WISH YOU NO HARM. WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO MAINTAIN SUCH RIGID SECURITY IN THIS COMMUNE?
A:* I was thinking that as Sheela has gone and the hostility between Oregonians and this commune disappears, we will slowly withdraw security. But there was reason for it, even in Sheela's time. Before we had no security, just the police -- which is part of the Oregon, city police, but we had to create the security because Christian fanatics started coming and creating nuisance in the city.

And then Hell's Angels started coming on their bikes. Now, that we cannot tolerate. And we don't want our people to be harassed by these fanatics. So unless government takes the guarantee that our people will not be harassed, the security will remain. If they take the guarantee, security will disappear tomorrow. There is no problem, because we don't want. In fact, one hundred people are unnecessary involved in security. They are creative people -- somebody is a doctor, somebody is a plastic surgeon and he is just carrying a gun. This is -- that gun is meant for retarded people, not for intelligent people who can do better things. We don't want it. And those guns look so ugly. We want the whole place to be full of roses, not full of guns.

But, the problem is that if we remove those guns.... Just one day we experimented, yesterday. In the morning discourse, two security people stand by the podium where I speak. We removed them. It doesn't look right. I'm talking about love, and you have to keep two peoples having guns on both the sides. We removed them, and a mad man jumped on the podium. He would have harmed me.

We know that there are people who belong to Sheela's gang. They are hostile. We know that there are people who have been posted by INS in the commune to give them all information.

Now, with all this.... And we are giving all the information, everything, without keeping anything, to FBI. Still the FBI people said to one of our people that, "We would like at least 500 people from the commune to be locked in prison." Now, this is -- this means they are not interested really in Sheela, her gang, her crimes; they are more interested in destroying the commune.

Q:* WHY WOULD THEY WANT TO DESTROY THE COMMUNE?
A:* Ask Attorney General. Why they should declare a legal city illegal? For two years it was legal; it was incorporated by the state government, by the Wasco County, it was accepted by the federal government. We were receiving support from federal government, state government, county, from everybody. And then suddenly the city became illegal.

Q:* THE SUPREME COURT OF OREGON SAID THAT THE LAND USE WAS NOT PROPER, IS THAT CORRECT?
A:* Yes, they have said it; but Attorney General has found another way. Now, he says that state and religion is mixed, so on that ground the city is illegal. We have won that case, that on land use laws city cannot be declared illegal. So they have now found another way.

And you can see the intention of the person. We said, "That's perfectly okay. We are ready to fight, but the case should be decided in a federal court." Because, if the case is state versus city, it cannot be decided by any state court.

Q:* SO YOU'LL APPEAL ON TO THE HIGHEST COURTS -- THE FEDERAL COURTS?
A:* That's what we are trying, but they are insisting that the case should be decided by a state court, which is absolutely illogical. Those state courts are under state pressure, they are part of the state; naturally we cannot win in those courts. And why they should be afraid of federal court or Supreme Court? If we are not afraid, why they should be afraid? We know perfectly well we are legal, the city is legal; we have not committed any illegality in its incorporation. There is no question of mixing any religion with the state.

I don't see -- because we don't believe in God, we don't have any heaven and hell, we don't have any prayer, we don't have any catechism. The city's work is making the roads, taking care of the public park, the public dam; I don't know how we can mix religion with the roads.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE COMMUNE? WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THE COMMUNE?
A:* The goal of the commune is that people should realize their reality, their self, their center. They should become fully conscious. There should not be a corner in their being which is dark. That is the goal, eternal goal of all humanity, to achieve self-realization; and that is our goal.

Now, how can we mix that goal with the municipality of the city? I don't
understand. I don't see that there is any way to mix.

They are mixing everywhere. In every court you are keeping Bible for taking oath; this is mixing religion with justice. Why Bible is being kept there? And knowing perfectly well that there is no other book so pornographic as your Holy Bible. Now, I cannot take oath on Bible; I would rather prefer a magazine of PLAYBOY, which is at least colorful and glossy.

They are -- there are few people, a group of atheists, who are publishing all the passages from the Bible which are pornographic, and what they have come to is five hundred pages collection. And they say this five hundred pages collection is the most pornographic; no other scripture is comparable to it. But why you are keeping it in the court? The court can keep the Constitution of America; that, one understands, and that has some value, that has some democratic respect for freedom, respect for expression. And that is made by far more intelligent people than Old Testament. I can accept the Constitution, but I cannot accept the Bible -- when you have such a beautiful Constitution. The best in the whole world.


https://s4.scoopwhoop.com/anj/image/e63a4550-445f-4eb4-be69-cfccb1dbd87a.jpg

SOURCE: The Last Testament (file:///H:/OSHO%20E-BOOKS/071_The_Last_Testament_Vol3.pdf) (pdf), Chapter 2 (Pages 12-33)

Dreamtimer
19th November 2018, 12:18
"If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

(Zen quote)

But take at least one Rolls. They're good for the back.;)

Aragorn
19th November 2018, 12:35
"If you meet the Buddha on your path, kill him."

(Zen quote)

But take at least one Rolls. They're good for the back.;)

Well, the thing with Rolls Royces is that they're usually meant to be driven by someone else, with the owner sitting in the backseat and drinking champagne. And that has never been my style. I prefer sitting behind the wheel myself. ;)

Besides, if it's all the same with you, then I'd rather have a McLaren than a Rolls. Christmas will be coming up soon <hint hint>. :eyebrows: :p

turiya
19th November 2018, 22:50
I wouldn't trade my Toyota 4Runner for anything... Except, perhaps, another one. :)
It has great seats - fits me perfectly.

Elen
20th November 2018, 06:30
Well, the thing with Rolls Royces is that they're usually meant to be driven by someone else, with the owner sitting in the backseat and drinking champagne. And that has never been my style. I prefer sitting behind the wheel myself. ;)

Besides, if it's all the same with you, then I'd rather have a McLaren than a Rolls. Christmas will be coming up soon <hint hint>. :eyebrows: :p

No no no...I've seen young mothers driving Rolls Royce with their toddlers in the back seat at Tesco here in Scotland. I don't think there was champagne in the bottle. :chrs:

Dreamtimer
20th November 2018, 12:35
Whiskey in the milk? Just joking!

Seamus Kennedy jokes about how his mother would rub his gums with whiskey to numb them while he was teething.

He stopped teething at 17. :p

Elen
21st November 2018, 08:41
Whiskey in the milk? Just joking!

Seamus Kennedy jokes about how his mother would rub his gums with whiskey to numb them while he was teething.

He stopped teething at 17. :p

Great call! :ha:

Dreamtimer
22nd November 2018, 13:53
Weirdly, I heard this cult come up on the radio yesterday.

Emil El Zapato
22nd November 2018, 15:01
So what's the word, DT... :)

Emil El Zapato
22nd November 2018, 18:42
Anger is not a small thing...A brilliant life lost.

https://twitter.com/MTEAunion/status/1064948191651598341/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwte rm%5E1064948191651598341&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fnat ion%2F2018%2F11%2F22%2Fyear-old-who-wrote-essay-gun-violence-killed-by-stray-bullet-her-own-home%2F
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dsd0afiU8AAda0g.jpg:large

"Sandra Parks knew too much about death, even at age 13.

“We are in a state of chaos. In a city in which I live, I hear and see examples of chaos almost everyday. Little children are victims of senseless gun violence,” Parks wrote.

Two years have passed since the young teen wrote about gun violence in her Milwaukee neighborhood. She called her essay “Our Truth” — a sobering reminder that, as she said, people’s poor choices and hatred have led to so much violence. She wrote about trying to escape from the chaos, from the “black on black crime” that depressed her. Sometimes she would put on her headphones, she wrote, and let the music take her away.

But she couldn’t escape from it.

Days before Thanksgiving Day this year, Parks was in her bedroom when a bullet fired from a gun outside, aimed at no one in particular, pierced a hole through her home and landed in her chest, officials said.

“Momma, I’m shot,” she told her mother.

Parks, the girl who called for peace and empathy, died Monday night.

“Tragically, her death was caused by someone who just decided they were going to shoot bullets into her house, and she’s dead. A 13-year-old, on Thanksgiving week, on a school night, in her bedroom, and she died,” Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett (D) told reporters Tuesday.

Investigators have not said why gunshots were fired at the teen’s home, a few miles north of downtown Milwaukee. Perhaps the gunman wanted to “settle a score, express anger, try to scare someone,” Barrett said.

“All we know,” he said, “is that a 13-year-old died last night in her bedroom.”

8th grade Keefe Avenue student Sandra Parks was killed by a stray bullet while in her own home last night. She was a Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. writing contest winner. The topic of her winning essay:

Bernice Parks, Sandra’s mother, told police she was awakened by gunshots shortly before 8 p.m., according to a criminal complaint cited by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. She saw her daughter bleeding on the floor.

“She said, ‘Momma, I’m shot. Call the police,’” Parks told Fox affiliate WITI, her voice breaking as she sobbed. “I looked at her. She didn’t cry. She wasn’t hollering. She was just so peaceful. … She didn’t deserve to leave this world like that.”

Police have arrested Isaac Barnes, 26, and Untrell Oden, 27. They were walking home from a store when Barnes began to fire at no one in particular, Oden told detectives, the Journal Sentinel reported.

Authorities said Barnes’s ex-girlfriend told a police officer that she suspected he was involved in the shooting. She was parked on a street near Sandra’s home earlier that night when Barnes, masked and armed with a rifle, approached her, the Journal Sentinel reported.

“You lucky the kids are in the car. I was going to fan you down,” Barnes said, the woman told police.

Isaac Barnes, 26, (left) and Untrell Oden, 27, have been charged in connection with the death of Sandra Parks, 13. (Milwaukee County Jail)
Officers searched the neighborhood and found Barnes and Oden hiding in a house a few blocks away. An AK-47 rifle was in a bedroom, and an AK-47 handgun had been thrown in a kitchen trash can. Authorities say four shell casings found outside Sandra’s home were fired from the handgun, the Journal Sentinel reported.

Barnes is charged with first-degree reckless homicide with a dangerous weapon and endangering safety. He and Oden, both convicted felons, are also charged with illegal possession of a gun.

In 2016, Milwaukee Public Schools held an essay contest about Martin Luther King Jr. Sandra, then a sixth-grader, won third place. She chose to write about gun violence because the world had failed to live up to the civil rights leader’s dream, she said in an interview with Wisconsin Public Radio.

“The world that we have become now is, like, that all you hear about is somebody dying and somebody getting shot, and people do not just think about whose father, son or granddaughter or grandson that was that you just killed,” Sandra said.

The teen, who was in eighth grade when she died, had hoped to go to college to be a writer, her mother wrote in a GoFundMe page set up to help the family pay for memorial services. It has raised more than $10,000 as of Thursday morning.

The Washington Post was unable to reach Bernice Parks on Thursday.

“I never felt so lost,” she wrote on Facebook. “My chest feels like a [boulder] is smashing down on my heart. I need peace. I lost my love.”

Speaking to reporters this week, the mother of three could barely catch her breath as she sobbed and buried her face into a relative’s chest.

“She was everything this world was not. … She went through a lot, and every time she was down, my baby picked herself up. … She always picked herself up. … She was my angel from the time she was in my womb to the time she came out. She’s still going to be my angel,” Parks said.

On Tuesday, neighbors, friends and relatives gathered for a vigil for Sandra. Bernice Parks stood in front of reporters, wrapped in a light-pink blanket, with a picture of her daughter’s face pinned to her jacket. A man carried the plaque Sandra won for her essay two years ago.

turiya
22nd November 2018, 19:01
Not relevant.


"...a bullet fired from a gun outside, aimed at no one in particular, pierced a hole through her home and landed in her chest, officials said."

That would make it an accident. An unfortunate accident, due to ignoring the safe use of a firearm.

Perhaps, you want to start up your own thread with a suggested title,


"Ignorance is a Yuuge Thing"

:)

Emil El Zapato
22nd November 2018, 19:07
Why don't you start a thread where you actually demonstrate a real "synthesized' thought...

actually i apologize for that...

Let me say it this way...Anger is a small thing is inane...Life itself speaks against that mantra that 'somebody' pulled from somebody else's muddled brain.

Aianawa
22nd November 2018, 19:22
Only my opinion Turiya, wear the emotional energy of our fellow member above, as a badge of honour, we all heal best able, they are amazing also.

Aianawa
22nd November 2018, 20:49
Only feel half the mirror NAP, hat helps, pain is E, angrrrrr is energy, you r winning, fighting the universe ( I call it ) requires much energy.

turiya
22nd November 2018, 21:24
First-hand, second-hand, third-hand... Knowledge


First hand, second hand, third hand
Posted by L.R. Miller


First-hand versus second-hand vs. third-hand ; experience as a gauge for Truth.

first-hand knowledge/information = information you have from directly experiencing the subject; knowledge from personal _experience_.
second-hand knowledge/information = information from someone with first-hand experience; knowledge learnt from someone who _experienced_ the subject. For example, having an event related to you by someone who experienced it. Or, being taught a skill by someone with experience*.
third-hand information = "story" ; information from people who did not experience the subject and who may not have learned that information from people with second-hand experience.
Further degrees of separation can be classified (as "4th-hand", "5th-hand", etc.; see below), but generally "third-hand" is meant to encompass any knowledge/information that is not "first-hand" or "second-hand".

Because any number of intermediate steps (degrees of separation from first-hand experience) can exist in "third-hand information," such information should be assumed to be unreliable; even when presented as 'fact,' or with an 'air of authority', this type of indirect knowledge can be based on rumor or hearsay.

Even with a source of information assumed to be reliable (e.g. a book), the information is often not even second-hand (from neither direct or indirect personal experience) and, furthermore, is modified (intentionally or unintentionally; by theory, opinion, rhetoric, similar experiences, et al.) by the third-hand source (e.g. the AUTHOR)!!! (Emphasis is mine.)


Why are these distinctions important?

Thinking about how far away from direct experience (which could be called "knowledge") any information may be is supposed to be a way to remind yourself that what-you-think-you-know may not be "truth," or may not be as reliable as it first seems.

One interesting and relevant example is Television News (broadcast journalism, as opposed to print journalism).

On news-shows, you will often see a "reporter" who has been sent to the location where an event took place. This is designed to give you the _impression_ that you are getting *first-hand* information about an event. But, in fact, you may not even be getting second-hand information, let alone first-hand.

The reporter almost always has arrived at the scene after the event has taken place. Furthermore, they usually don't have the time to find and talk to multiple people with first-hand experience. And do you actually know if information they are relating to you is from a first-hand source?

This is how the distinction of 'what degree of separation from experience?' can be a useful tool: you can better gauge what level of confidence you have about a "story" if you ask yourself if what you are hearing is first-hand, second-hand, or third-hand.

For example, when the reporter says "We spoke to so-and-so at the scene, and he told us..." you could ask yourself:

"Does so-and-so have first-hand information?" Or,
Is 'so-and-so' someone like a Captain, or someone who's job it is to speak to the press? If so, do you know if they experienced the event?
Do you know if the person questioned by the reporter received information from one, many, or no people with first-hand experience yet?
Because, it could be the case that the person quoted is, in fact, another person without first-hand experience (direct knowledge) of what happened.

And thinking about whether the information is connected to direct experience, you may then realize that, even though it seems like you are getting reliable information--because the reporter is where the event occurred, or the person interviewed could be assumed to have gotten multiple first-hand reports--you don't actually know if you are getting second-hand or third-hand information. This can help you to realize you may not know the whole story, or may not know the true story.


Further degrees of separation from experience (4th-hand, 5th-hand,...)

Theoretical examples of further "handedness": degrees of separation from first-hand experience/knowledge:

fourth-hand information: Learning from books (for subjects other than skills).
fifth-hand information: Information from someone who learned from books (including skills, unless that person also has first-hand experience [practice*]).
sixth-hand information: Information from sources like Wikipedia (where the authors do not have 1st- or 2nd-hand information, and have not even obtained 4th- or 5th- hand information; i.e. cases where neither the author nor the author's source have any connection to "experience").
SOURCE (http://libertymiller.blogspot.com/2009/09/first-hand-second-hand-third-hand.html)

Note from the above L.R. Miller article that kicked off this particular post:


I wrote this blog article in reaction to hearing Tom Cruise say "There's first-hand data, second-hand data, and third-hand data.... and third-hand data is way out there." Maybe it can , in some small way, help prevent such an unclear statement on the subject from ever being spoken again ;-)

turiya
22nd November 2018, 21:32
Classic 'Fake News' Journalism...

I don't know man, the evidence most certainly doesn't point in that direction. Yes, that's him driving in both pictures folks.

Hint: Look up Rajneeshpuram, Oregon. I'll list just one sample link, but they all tell pretty much the same story....

https://www.carmrades-blog.com/all-articles/2016/10/2/the-story-of-the-rolls-royce-guru

Fred Steeves, in considering what has been said in the above Post #103, I would call this article that you provided the one sample link to, which I suppose you considered it to be the best example that you had found, is coming from what can be referred to as a third-rate... er... I mean... a third-hand, unreliable source. Keyword would be 'unreliable'.

It appears that the blogger, Kyle Ashdown, is a car buff. And, he probably chose to write this blog (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog) article on Rajneesh because of his own infatuation with automobiles. (See link: All Articles (https://www.carmrades-blog.com/all-articles/?author=5939ad6559cc682ba8ee1a71)).

And then, to go on & write an article entitled "The True Story of the The Rolls-Royce Guru", I would bet dollars to your doughnuts, Fred Steeves, that this guy never stepped one foot into the Rajneeshpuram commune, let alone, anywhere else within the entire State of Oregon. Yet, he knows the 'True Story' about what was going on there, in a place where he's never ever been to before in his entire life.

As a matter of fact, the date he wrote this article was October 2, 2016 (See the url to see the date of his blog article).

So let's see.... October 10, 1984 is when the so-called Rajneeshee bioterror attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack) took place. So...... October 2016 - October 1984 = 32 years. So, this so-called author wrote this article 32 years (give or take a few days) after the event took place.

Oh, look! I see that this so-called author... it appears as though he just graduated from the University of Saskatchewan just earlier this year (June 2018). So let's see... he's Canadian. And... figure life at University for him started just after he finished high school, say at 18-years-old. Add 4 years for undergraduate degree & another 2-4 more years for his graduate degree. That would make Kyle Ashdown no more than 26 or 27-years-old.

See Twitter Link (https://twitter.com/ecarnomics/status/1004213335326412800)


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/De-us3QVQAARHE2.jpg (https://twitter.com/ecarnomics/status/1004213335326412800)

Well gee, Fred. The guy wasn't even born yet when Rajneeshpuram commune was going strong. Yet, he writes an article about what had happened there entitled, "The True Story of the The Rolls-Royce Guru". That's very, very weak, imo.

So, he can be taken out of the first-hand knowledge category, as well as the second-hand knowledge category... So yeah, he's no more than a third-rate.... uh... I mean, 3rd-hand source for this kind of information. But really, that is giving him way better than what he probably really deserves, and that being ==> 4th-rate, 5th-rate or even a 6th-rate source of knowledge.

Yep, just barely above being that of a gossip column journalist, or better to say - Comic Book journalism, I would say. Yep... And, with that, I'm being very, very nice. :)

Note from the above L.R. Miller article that kicked off the above Post #103:


I wrote this blog article in reaction to hearing Tom Cruise say "There's first-hand data, second-hand data, and third-hand data.... and third-hand data is way out there." Maybe it can , in some small way, help prevent such an unclear statement on the subject from ever being spoken again ;-)

Dreamtimer
29th November 2018, 01:04
Marvin had something to sing about anger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=ATAgDKco5Ac



Up and down my back, my spine, in my brain
It injures me, babe....
Anger, can make you old, yes it can
I said anger, can make you sick, children... oh Jesus
Anger destroys your soul
Rage, there's no room for rage in there
There's no room for rage in here
Line up some place to go to be mad
It's a sin to treat your body bad
When anger really gets the best of us
We've really lost our heads
We often say a lot of things, oh darlin'
Wish we'd never said
Oh, reason is beyond control
And the things we do spite
Makes me ashamed
And I mean this, baby, makes me want to the things right
Someday soon I hope and pray like Jesus
I'll reach that wiser age
Hope I will learn I really never never profit
From things I do in rage
One more time-anger, oh anger
When it's flaming hot
Anger burns to the bitter end
Know what I'm talkin' 'bout
When it cools I find out too late
I have lost at love, love, love, dear friend
I said, anger will make you sick
Children, oh Jesus
Anger destroys your soul
I ain't gonna let you get the best of me, babe
I'm gonna go somewhere and cool
This is not the way my head's supposed to be, babe
You've got me feelin' like some silly fool
But I know a real nice place where I can go
And feel the way I'm supposed to feel
I don't want to be mad at nobody
I don't want to be feelin' bad
Up and down my back, my spine, in my brain
It injures me, babe
Anger, can make you old, yes it can
I said anger will make you sick, children, oh Jesus
Anger destroys your soul
Anger
Anger

turiya
29th November 2018, 03:03
Rage vs Anger

Marvin is confused, as many are, about Anger. About emotional energy, and how to use it creatively.

Expression of emotional energy is healthy.
Repression of emotional energy is not healthy.

Rage is a symptom of the unhealthy repression of emotional energy.
Repression of Anger is self-destructive. One can injure oneself.
Repression is masochistic. Masochism is a symptom that one doesn't love themselves.

Expression of Anger doesn't destroy the soul. Expression of emotional energy is natural.
Repression of Anger, of emotional energy, is unnatural.
Repression can destroy one's own body-mind mechanism.
Repression of Anger can lead to sickness.
Repression can cause a dis-ease.
It can cause an early death.

Rage is explosive. Rage is the symptom that one has been repressing one's own emotional Anger energy.

The repression of one's Anger causes the energy to build up within.
An energetic pressure is created over time.
If a pressure release is not provided, Anger will eventually be transformed into a fit of Rage.
Rage is an unconscious release of accumulated emotional energy caused by repression.

When the control mechanism fails under great accumulated pressure, the dam breaks, the volcanic pressure releases, and the molten lava will flow.

The expression of Anger is the outward flow of energy.
It can be done creatively.

One can go to the gym to exercise & move the energy through the body.
Sweat can pour from the pores of the skin.
It can be used in a cleansing process.
Anger can be used positively in its expression.
Ride a bike. Pump iron. Burn the energy through the muscles.
Move the body & the energy dissipates through it.
The blood will flow. The intake of oxygen will refresh the cells.
The body will rejoice.

One can be aware of what one can do with the Anger energy, or one can remain unconscious.
One can remain irresponsible.
If one chooses 'not' to be responsible, then the body-mind will still find a way to move the energy.
It will be done unconsciously.
It will come out in a fit of Rage.
As energy needs to move.

Rage is a symptom that the body-mind has stagnated energy.

Marvin is mixing up Rage & and the healthy expression of Anger.
He's a good singer. But he has not self-examined his own Anger enough to really understand it.
He hasn't understood his own mechanism enough to know what it needs.
He's been conditioned, brainwashed to believe that the expression of anger is a bad thing.
That's why he is confused about it.
That's why he's created this song.
The lyrics show that he doesn't understand himself.
He doesn't know himself.

It surprises me that Marvin, being an artist, like a lot of artists, they don't really understand how to creatively use their emotional energy within their chosen medium of expression. In Marvin's case, it is his music.

Perhaps, Marvin should have taken a lesson from John Lennon, who perfectly demonstrates how one can creatively express emotions through music. John Lennon understood it quite well, imo.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvFi0wvGrMw

Dreamtimer
17th December 2018, 13:10
Sylvie of New Earth speaks of anger near the end of her TOT interview, at 45:45. Anger is no small thing to her.

This video is full of interesting footage from google earth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjlnNGiyKW0

turiya
18th December 2018, 00:03
Beyond Indulgence and Repression...


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/79/66/8079668fa0c6bde54ac9a0deb00f7165.jpg


Become more watchful and anger will be less and greed will be less and jealousy will be less.

I don’t say to you: 'Don’t be angry,' because that’s what has been said to you down the ages.

Your so-called saints have been telling you, “Don’t be angry!” so you have learned ways of repressing anger. But the more you repress anger, the bigger the unconscious you are creating in yourself. You are throwing things into the basement, and then you will be afraid to enter into the basement, because all these things – anger and greed and sex – are there. You know! You have been throwing them there. All kinds of rubbish are there, and dangerous, poisonous. You will not be ready to go in.

That’s why people don’t want to go in, because going in means encountering all these things. And nobody wants to encounter these things; one wants to avoid them. For thousands of years you have been told to repress, and because of repression you have become more and more unconscious. I cannot say to you repress. I would like to say to you just the opposite: don’t repress – watch, be alert.

When anger arises, sit down in your room, close your doors and watch it.

You know only two ways: either to be angry, be violent, destructive, or to repress it. You don’t know the third way, and the third way is the way of the buddhas: neither indulge nor repress – watch.

Indulgence creates habit. If you become angry today and again tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow again, you are creating a habit; you are conditioning yourself to be more and more angry. So indulgence cannot take you out of it.

That’s where the modern growth movement is stuck. Encounter groups, primal therapy, gestalt, bioenergetics...and so many beautiful things are happening in the world, but they are stuck at a certain point. Their problem is: they teach expression – and it is good, it is far better than repression.

If there is only this choice, repress or express, then I would suggest express. But this is not the real choice; there is a third alternative, far more important than both these.

If you express, you become habitual; you learn by doing it again and again – you can’t get out of it.

In this commune there are at least fifty therapy groups running, for a certain reason. It is just to balance the thousands of years of repression; it is just to balance. It is just to bring to light all that you have repressed as Christians, Hindus, Mohammedans, Jainas, Buddhists. It is just to undo the centuries’ old harm that has been done to you.

But remember, these groups are not the end; they only prepare you for meditation. They are not the goal; they are just simple means to undo the wrong of the past.

Once you have thrown out of your system all that you have been repressing all along, I have to lead you into watchfulness. Now it will be easier to watch.

Indulgence creates habit, repression gathers the poison within. In indulgence you throw the poison on others, but they are not going to remain silent – they will throw it back. It becomes a match: you throw your anger on others, they throw their anger on you – but nobody is helped, everybody is harmed and hurt.

And if you repress.... Because of this futility of indulgence, priests invented repression. It keeps you out of danger. Repression keeps you a good citizen, a gentleman. It keeps you out of the dangers of getting caught by the law, getting caught into enmity; it keeps you smooth. Repression helps you to become a better social person, that’s true. But it makes you a wound inside, just a wound, and the pus goes on gathering inside. Outside it functions as a lubricating agent, but inside you become more and more mad.

Meditate – meditation means watchfulness – and you will attain to freedom and bliss.

Osho, The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol. 1, Talk #5 (https://www.osho.com/read/featured-articles/emotional-ecology/beyond-indulgence-and-repression)

turiya
18th December 2018, 23:42
Sylvie of New Earth speaks of anger near the end of her TOT interview, at 45:45. Anger is no small thing to her.


Sylvie Ivanova:


"By contributing to the cleansing of our planet from these parasitic influences, I am uprooting various contaminations from my own being.

Now, when I say contaminations, that has a very subtle meaning. For example, I may see it as uprooting violence from myself. No, I'm not a violent person. You know - hitting people, or anything like this - I haven't been like this in this lifetime - never. But for me, even getting angry at somebody, for even a fraction of a second, I see this as violence."

If Sylvie really believes this... that "getting angry at somebody, for even a fraction of a second, I see this as violence."

And that, "By contributing to the cleansing of our planet from these parasitic influences, I am uprooting various contaminations from my own being."

If she really believes this, then perhaps, she would explain then, how people could ever come together to kiss, hug & make up?


EXISTENCE is paradoxical; paradox is its very core. It exists through opposites, it is a balance in the opposites. And one who learns how to balance becomes capable of knowing what life is, what existence is, what God is. The secret key is balance.

A few things before we enter into this story.... First, we have been trained in Aristotelian logic -- which is linear, one-dimensional. Life is not Aristotelian at all, it is Hegelian.

Logic is not linear, logic is dialectical. The very process of life is dialectic, a meeting of the opposites -- a conflict between the opposites and yet a meeting of the opposites. And life goes through this dialectical process: from thesis to antithesis, from antithesis to synthesis -- and then again the synthesis becomes a thesis. The whole process starts again.

If Aristotle is true then there will be only men and no women, or, only women and no men. If the world was made according to Aristotle then there will be only light and no darkness, or, only darkness and no light. That would be logical. There would be either life or death but not both.

But life is not based on Aristotle's logic, life has both. And life is really possible only because of both, because of the opposites: man and woman, yin and yang, day and night, birth and death, love and hate. Life consists of both.

This is the first thing you have to allow to sink deep into your heart -- because Aristotle is in everybody's head. The whole education system of the world believes in Aristotle -- although for the very advanced scientific minds Aristotle is out of date. He no longer applies. Science has gone beyond Aristotle because science has come closer to Existence.

And now science understands that life is dialectical, not logical.
I have heard....


Do you know that on Noah's ark, making love was forbidden while on board?

When the couples filed out of the ark after the flood, Noah watched them leave. Finally the tom-cat and the she-cat left, followed by a number of very young kittens. Noah raised his eyebrows questioningly and the tom-cat said to him, 'And, you thought we were fighting!'

Noah must have been Aristotelian; the tom-cat knew better. -- Osho, The Art of Dying, Chapter 3

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