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[Chris]

Hey Chris,
Yes, I know about Katyn! And don't worry, nobody could or should minimize the terrors of fascism or communism.

Scholar and Solider- as an officer in the Polish Army, He was captured by the Soviets in September 1939. In April 1940 he was brought to the vicinity of the Katyn Forest where the execution of Polish officers was taking place.

Before the war Stanislaw was researching the economies of totalitarian countries and his expert knowledge of German economy caught the interest of his Soviet captors. He was recalled from the Katyn Forest to Moscow where he was interrogated and sentenced to forced labour in the GULAG. His survival of death from starvation and exhaustion and subsequent escape from the claws of the NKVD makes for fascinating reading. After having regained his freedom in August 1942, he joined the Polish army under British command in the Middle East. After the war he returned to his scholarly work and taught at the universities in Enland, Indonesia, Canada and the USA[/I]

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1084842.In_the_Shadow_of_Katyn

I bought the book, In the Shadow of Katyn, from his son, Witold, an acquaintance of mine. I lived in an area that was heavily populated with older Germans, Poles, Dutch Indonesians etc...Anyway I learned a lot from his Dad's book and it helped shape my world view. It also made me realize that if China and the U.S. ever get into it, war wise, it puts Canadians in a horrible position. Already we are, like Poland, torn between having to obey Trump (Hitler proxy) and what is in our best economic interest, which would be to trade with both nations in a peaceful manner. Poles were persecuted by the Russians and the Nazis. The entire officer corp was wiped out in the Katyn forest with maybe one or two exceptions. Stanislaw Sweinewicz, being one.



Thanks, that's really interesting.

My Granddad was one of the few officers, who survived the Katyn massacre. He changed from his officer uniform to a private's, as did most officers, but the communists devised a clever trick to determine who was really a private and who wasn't. They looked at the hands of soldiers and those with rough hands, presumed to be privates, were let go, whereas those with fine aristocratic hands were presumed to be officers, rounded up and executed. My Granddad was a farmer, so he had a lucky escape.

They blamed this massacre on the Nazis until the early nineties btw and always denied responsibility.

Then when a fervently anti-Russian conservative government flew in to commemorate the massacre in Putin-allied Belarus (which was previously mostly part of Poland), their plane conveniently fell out of the sky (with echoes of later plane crashes in Russian-controlled territory, which still haven't been satisfactorily resolved), wiping out the entire Polish government and the leadership of the Law and Justice party. There were credible videos being circulated in its aftermath, showing the wreckage as first responders (presumed to be Russian military) arrived at the scene, with several gunshots being fired.

Everybody in Poland believes that it was Putin's goons finishing the job, making sure there were no survivors and thus witnesses. I love the Russian people, but the Russian government has always been a bully and always will be, that is just the sad reality.


OMG, I feel like I have come home. Have been trying like Hell to make some inroads into the alt right propaganda propagating on PA! Just took a cursory look at this last page of the thread and realize just how deeply you now differ from that forum. I am NOT going back. It's overrun. Some wonderful people there, some who are even level headed but not enough!:(

It really is fascism-lite at this point.

And they are the ones that claim to be fighting fascism. How ironic!

Though I must say, that also applies to Antifa goons, they are a truly orwellian outfit, representing exactly those tactics that they claim to be fighting against.

[Aragorn]

Then when a fervently anti-Russian conservative government flew in to commemorate the massacre in Putin-allied Belarus (which was previously mostly part of Poland), their plane conveniently fell out of the sky [...]

It is a well known fact that Vladimir Putin has a way of making dissenters disappear without a trace. He has after all been the head of the FSB for many years. :eyebrows:

[Chris]

It is a well known fact that Vladimir Putin has a way of making dissenters disappear without a trace. He has after all been the head of the FSB for many years. :eyebrows:

Yes, it is so obvious, but people on the far right still idolise him like some sort of Messiah.

G.W. Bush was the first one to be taken in by his fake Christian, Defender of the Faith and of Christians worldwide persona. He deliberately wore an Orthodox cross and made up some Bullshit story about how important his Christian faith was to him (an obvious requirement for any KGB commander… It beggars belief that people bought this utter bull). Bushie and the entire alt-right has been smitten with him ever since.

It is all a cynical ploy of course to keep their hold on power, Netanyahu, Orbán, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Modi and Trump are all trying the same spiel with their respective religions, with varying degrees of success.

[Emil El Zapato]

It's the Dunning-Kruger effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect); they see the splinter in someone else's eye while completely missing the beam in their own.

A Mote in God's Eye...right?

[Dreamtimer]

I read that book, NAP. ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

Good information all around...

It was a very good book...I'm forgetting who wrote right now...but it was one of the biggies I think

I thought so, Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven...I went to a ceremony for Jack Williamson, Professor emeritus of my University where Pournelle was the distinguished guest speaker. I left that presentation thinking that Pournelle was a very disturbed individual...I think I've posted that story before.

[Dreamtimer]

Niven and Pournell? Now that was a world which had cyclical collapses. And specialization almost beyond belief.

[Emil El Zapato]

Niven was the real talent between the two. Pournelle was just riding coattails.

[Chris]

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/requiem-for-george-floyd/

Requiem for George Floyd

The occasion of the state funeral for the late George Floyd — rivaling the solemn progress of Abraham Lincoln’s casket across this land at lilac time so long ago — may be a good time for Americans to take stock of what condition our condition is in. Going on a fortnight of protests, riots, and looting, what exactly does black America seek in its cry for an end to systemic racism? Forgive me for saying the petition is vague. I’ll have to tread into realms of discourse that are taboo these days, so gird your loins if you care to follow.

Is there a campaign of police genocide against black people? The facts and numbers say emphatically no. (They’re discussed in detail in many articles by Heather MacDonald at City Journal.) Is it true that “black people aren’t heard?” If you follow The New York Times, America’s “newspaper of record,” that’s all you will hear. Has justice been denied in the killing of Mr. Floyd? Four cops have been swiftly arraigned on grave charges. Are black people denied the privilege of governing their own affairs? Many cities are run by black mayors, police chiefs, and district attorneys where, year by year, social dysfunction has only gotten worse.

Is a substantial portion of the black population not thriving in comparison to whites and other racial or ethic groups? Apparently so. The only truly systemic dynamic in their plight is the campaign by government, ongoing for more than fifty years, to uplift them with social programs, cash assistance, and affirmative action, plus monuments, prizes, and holidays, and very vocal public encouragement from “allies” in media, entertainment and sports. All this “help” only seems to make the problems worse.

It’s beyond obvious after a half a century and trillions of dollars spent that well-intentioned government support destroyed black family formation. Seventy-five percent of black children are raised these days in households without fathers because cash assistance is forbidden where there is “a man in the house.” Everybody knows the problem is generational and severe. Paying unmarried women (often just girls) to have babies can easily be seen as leading to many social disadvantages. Who is militating to change that — say, to allow cash assistance to married couples? Nobody, most particularly black America. Why? Because it’s an established racket, a hustle, a pattern of living, complete with customs and rituals, such as giving over young black men to prison as an initiation to manhood. Why are they sent to prison? Because they commit crimes.

The bamboozlement over this was especially vivid last week in the contrast between the sanctimony of the daytime protest marches and the nighttime looting, vandalism, and arson, of which there are hundreds of videos on the web, showing young black Americans acting like savages. The police all over America didn’t dare try to stop it lest they produce a new martyr to aggravate the insurrection. No plea arose from leaders in black communities across the land to stop the disgraceful behavior. It was not even recognized as disgraceful, rather regarded as a necessary ceremony for purging the bad feelings over George Floyd’s gruesome death at the knee of officer Derek Chauvin.

Why not try succeeding at school rather than prison? School has different requirements. I will venture an idea which is not just taboo, but taboo to an extreme: many black children cannot succeed in school because they do not speak English correctly at home and the schools have, as a definite policy, done nothing to correct that because it would be labeled as “racist.” If your language dispenses with grammatical form — such as the difference between the expression of past, present, and future — you’re liable to suffer cognitive disadvantages which result in doing poorly at school. You may even be incapable of showing up on time for anything.

The number one job in elementary school should be teaching children first to speak English, because without it, they’ll struggle to learn anything else. But we’re not interested. It might hurt someone’s feelings to learn that his or her speech is deficient. It might anger a parent to hear that. So, we choose to let the children fail. It’s a choice we make by consensus. Here’s some news for you: multiculturalism is itself a form of racism that ghettoizes language. Do you want that to continue? Are you really interested in change? Change that. Start there.

This points to a deeper and more fundamental question: Does black America really want to fully participate in our national life, or do they want to remain an oppositional faction within it, dependent, resentful, and violent? The George Floyd fiasco has distracted the country from the most severe economic crisis of the century, so far. Do you understand how much thought and effort it will take to reorganize America’s economic life? We are not going back to the way things were before the year 2020. A lot of familiar arrangements will not continue. Comforts and conveniences are phasing out. We don’t have time for histrionics. Can we please just respectfully bury this troubled man and get on with the tasks at hand?

[Emil El Zapato]

lol...the problem is deeper than black lives, as I have always said, it is authoritarianism...that is easy to levy against animals... Wouldn't you agree, Chris?

[Emil El Zapato]

This morning using Minneapolis as an example it was pointed out that historically (now nominally outlawed) a clause in most home purchase documents included 'only whites' will be allowed to purchase this home. There is the underpinning of the system to 'give' minorities a hand up. Always promoted by the right or left depending which side of the coin appeared to be the most racist at the given moment in time.

We gotta be real, aware, and have a true desire to see equity for ALL people. I think the American Rainbow is bringing reality to Earth. It is an amazing thing to watch the things that are being proposed and they are coming from the most unexpected places. If this holds this is REAL change!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nhx1_yXMwCg

[Chris]

Sorry guys,

You're not going to like this, but the more this mayhem goes on, the more clarity I have over what really is happening in the US.

The Left is instigating a race war. This includes the Democratic establishment and the media, most prominently the New York Times. Their ultimate aim seems to be revolution, or at least insurrection. They just want Trump gone (which I can understand, but still) and are willing to pay whatever price, risk everything, to get it done.

After this, there is no way in hell that the Midwestern swing states that Biden needs to win are going to vote blue this time round. As bad as Trump is, at least he represents law and order. A lot of scared white people are going to vote for him come November, just to stop this madness, which may go on for several months on current form.

When (and not if) Trump gets reelected, the race war will kick into a higher gear and things will probably get even worse. We might really see some sort of martial law and troops shooting looters on sight. At this point, it will probably be a welcome change for most people who want normality restored.

I call this a race war for a reason, because there are clearly defined racial lines here. The businesses that are being looted are mostly owned by white people, the people doing the looting are mostly black and brown. They are pissed off that white (and Asian) people are more successful than they are and the Left has convinced them that this is due to some nefarious conspiracy by whites to keep brown and black people poor (but not Asians for some reason, who are also a different race in case I need to point that out). The parallels with Kristallnacht are pretty uncomfortable.

I expect that white (and Asian) people will move out of the major cities for good and form their own fortified regions with major cities collapsing into a post-apocalyptic wasteland. There will be a lot of boarded up and empty skyscrapers in the likes of Manhattan and Chicago. Johannesburg actually provides a nice preview of coming attractions in that regard.

It seems that Democrat-run cities are gradually going to close their police departments, so there will be utter lawlessness and mayhem, maybe literally mob rule. There probably won't be a single urban area in the US that will be safe for anyone to walk in and so people just won't, they will abandon these places in droves, at least the more affluent ones. I'm sad to see this unfold, but I really see no way out of this.

[Octopus Garden]

lol...the problem is deeper than black lives, as I have always said, it is authoritarianism...that is easy to levy against animals... Wouldn't you agree, Chris?

It's largely but not purely racial. It's war on the underclass, the workers by the "ubermen" Globalism as a neo-liberal ideology, originally, displaced a huge percentage of blacks who had worked in unionized manufacturing jobs.

That happened during the dawning of the tech age, which started away from black populations, more on the West Coast, by white nurdy guys. And if you follow general trends, the demographic who has the initial jump in any industry is going to dominate it.

Blacks HAVE been disadvantaged. There are many individual exceptions to this general rule, but it remains a reality nevertheless. And if part of that disadvantage lies in actual obstruction and disturbance of lives through a two tiered justice system--one for the middle and upper class and another for blacks of any class (but particularly the underclass) you have an entrenched and systemic issue.

It's a tragedy, a bloody shame... literally.

[Emil El Zapato]

its much more complicated than that Chris...Asians make up different demographic groups as do Hispanics...Cubans for example at least in the earlier waves were from upper middle class backgrounds. Asian Japanese and Chinese are in many ways similar...Though I was listening to a presentation the other day that many if not most current illegal immigrants are Asian, specifically Chinese...and many of these are not social favorites which means their upward road will be more difficult than average, so their only real hope is that they possess inherent skills that are more than average. Blacks and indigenous Americans have been squashed for all of their history with European contact. Their starting points are massively different.

Early Chinese immigrants built railroads and were discriminated against without mercy...their immigration was outlawed for a good while. After Whites began to get wind that Asians were more 'intelligent' than they it lent automatic status to the 'New Asian'. (that perception has resulted in massive stereotyping) to the good of the 'special' Asians...the rest are for the most part still dirt in the mind of white Americans but very exploitable for sexual favors...Vietnamese, Hmong, Malaysians, etc.

After Mexican immigrants started to move away from the farm where they, in turn, had been mercilessly exploited and discriminated against, they began to build railroads in the Midwest and the descendants of those generations of immigrants are now Lawyers, Engineers, Teachers, Tradesman, Business owners...Sometimes despite all the opposition in the world you can't keep a group down.

And last but not least, Blacks have been hunted like game for 400 years...to not face the realities of all of the above is to miss important things fundamental to human nature.

[Emil El Zapato]

It's largely but not purely racial. It's war on the underclass, the workers by the "ubermen" Globalism as a neo-liberal ideology, originally, displaced a huge percentage of blacks who had worked in unionized manufacturing jobs.

That happened during the dawning of the tech age, which started away from black populations, more on the West Coast, by white nurdy guys. And if you follow general trends, the demographic who has the initial jump in any industry is going to dominate it.

Blacks HAVE been disadvantaged. There are many individual exceptions to this general rule, but it remains a reality nevertheless. And if part of that disadvantage lies in actual obstruction and disturbance of lives through a two tiered justice system--one for the middle and upper class and another for blacks of any class (but particularly the underclass) you have an entrenched and systemic issue.

It's a tragedy, a bloody shame... literally.

Without a doubt that's true...i think that is finally how we got where we are...if no one is happy...there will be hell to pay... :)

Do you mean 'liberal' in the classical sense or just 'neo-liberal'...curious is all... :)

[Chris]

Reacting to all of the above:

Everybody was discriminated against when they first arrived in the New World, except maybe for WASPS.

Most ethnic groups managed to get over it, whether it is the Irish, Germans, Jews, Poles, Chinese, Japanese, etc...

Blacks did not. Why? Nobody seems to ever want to answer that question truthfully. And it is not because they came from Africa or the colour of their skin, since recent African immigrants or South Indians, who are very dark-skinned are doing fine. There is clearly something else going on here and nobody in the US is willing to have an honest conversation about race and the genuine problems of the African-American community. I believe people are overlooking the possibility that this particular ethnic group has largely themselves to blame for their generic failure to thrive in the US. Most people in the world would swim across the Atlantic ocean to be given the same opportunities as African-Americans are given as a birthright.

They are born US citizens, speaking English as a Mother Tongue and can move around freely all across America, get special treatment in terms of ethnic quotas for certain jobs and university places, be eligible for welfare and all sorts of social programmes. If with those advantages in life, you can't make it, the problem really is with you. I am honest when I say that most people on this planet would kill to be given the same opportunities as African-Americans and whilst some make the most of it, most don't and then blame white people for their own failures. The entire Leftist establishment is encouraging this dangerous delusion and is feeding into and encouraging it. This is going to end badly.

[Emil El Zapato]

lol...the thing is most people can't swim the Atlantic...it doesn't sound like something that can be satisfactorily explained to you Chris...but I never pass a challenge.

Systematic abuse will lead to a dysfunctional human being of any color...they have outlets and many have found them...but not everyone is of the same timbre...some are more angry than others, some are more dejected than others, some are more frightened than others, many are less capable than others, and some are serial killers.

I lived on the streets for about two months in Miami, Florida...I and of couple of friends got stranded after my car broke down...the highlight of the stay was watching a paranoid-schizophrenic stand up in the library and accuse another person there of being a body snatcher. I got to see him mauled the next day by another crazy guy. We were approached by some poor kids speaking Spanish and appealing to God to give them food. The real highlight was when we were spending the night around some paper trash bins and I had just drifted off. I woke up to see a guy pop off the lid of his box where he was living. That was a surreal experience. You have no idea how degrading just a month or two of that life will change you...for good or bad.

The really frightening thing is that I learned how one can get hopelessly lost in the ghetto, barrio, whatever it is. One truly begins to feel that there is no escape, no way out. I might still be there, if we hadn't found a friend that helped us get back on our feet and enabled to get the f*ck out of there.

[Chris]

lol...the thing is most people can't swim the Atlantic...it doesn't sound like something that can be satisfactorily explained to you Chris...but I never pass a challenge.

I obviously meant that figuratively.


Systematic abuse will lead to a dysfunctional human being of any color...they have outlets and many have found them...but not everyone is of the same timbre...some are more angry than others, some are more dejected than others, some are more frightened than others, many are less capable than others, and some are serial killers.

I lived on the streets for about two months in Miami, Florida...I and of couple of friends got stranded after my car broke down...the highlight of the stay was watching a paranoid-schizophrenic stand up in the library and accuse another person there of being a body snatcher. I got to see him mauled the next day by another crazy guy. We were approached by some poor kids speaking Spanish and appealing to God to give them food. The real highlight was when we were spending the night around some paper trash bins and I had just drifted off. I woke up to see a guy pop off the lid of his box where he was living. That was a surreal experience. You have no idea how degrading just a month or two of that life will change you...for good or bad.

The really frightening thing is that I learned how one can get hopelessly lost in the ghetto, barrio, whatever it is. One truly begins to feel that there is no escape, no way out. I might still be there, if we hadn't found a friend that helped us get back on our feet and enabled to get the f*ck out of there.

That argument about systematic abuse gets really old, when slavery ended in the 19th century. It is now the 21st. Perhaps time to get over it. Eastern Europeans were being worked to death as slaves within living memory and yet we don't whine about systematic abuse.

BTW, recent immigrants from Africa, who barely speak English can get jobs as soon as they arrive in the US and they start moving up the social ladder. How come native-born Americans can't? It's just entitlement and laziness. Nothing really to do with race either as white working-class Britons are now pretty much facing the same problems. It is now the third generation not working and living off benefits until kingdom come, whereas recent immigrants can get jobs almost immediately.

[Emil El Zapato]

many immigrants are supported by systems that help them, if they are among the chosen. You nailed it, Why? It is an inter-generational legacy. I wonder if those 'Africans' moving up the ladder will still be moving up the ladder when they become 'African-Americans'. All it would take is a misstep or two and it's ghetto here I come. As for immigrants in general, sociologists call borders a Darwinian filter. The key is that any one individual needs a monetary support system, of some kind, and in most cases it supersedes the level of slave wages.

Don't miss the human aspect of it, Any immigrant is looking for upward mobility and many have the skills necessary to begin the journey.

Of course, southern immigrants are told that they just want to live off the American Welfare System. which has never been true, is not true now, nor will it ever be true.

Chris, I'm betting you have a long history of self-respect...Your Grandfather was a military officer? Are you still viewed as a puke from your fellow citizens? It's like comparing apples and oranges

Chris, the American situation will become clearer overtime, I guarantee you what we are seeing is a very good thing...very good.

[Chris]

many immigrants are supported by systems that help them, if they are among the chosen. You nailed it, Why? It is an inter-generational legacy. I wonder if those 'Africans' moving up the ladder will still be moving up the ladder when they become 'African-Americans'. All it would take is a misstep or two and it's ghetto here I come. As for immigrants in general, sociologists call borders a Darwinian filter. The key is that any one individual needs a monetary support system, of some kind, and in most cases it supersedes the level of slave wages.

Don't miss the human aspect of it, Any immigrant is looking for upward mobility and many have the skills necessary to begin the journey.

Of course, southern immigrants are told that they just want to live off the American Welfare System. which has never been true, is not true now, nor will it ever be true.

Chris, I'm betting you have a long history of self-respect...Your Grandfather was a military officer? Are you still viewed as a puke from your fellow citizens? It's like comparing apples and oranges

Chris, the American situation will become clearer overtime, I guarantee you what we are seeing is a very good thing...very good.

Let's hope you are right.

[Emil El Zapato]

Always! :)

[Octopus Garden]

Without a doubt that's true...i think that is finally how we got where we are...if no one is happy...there will be hell to pay... :)

Do you mean 'liberal' in the classical sense or just 'neo-liberal'...curious is all... :)

Neo-liberal, like neo-con, in a very real sense!

[Octopus Garden]

The only source of support blacks had, arriving in the U.S, were fellow family members, if they were lucky. Once they were sold at auction, families were ripped apart. Children taken from mothers, husbands and wives were separated.

Intact families are the foundation of societies that are relationship based. And society back in the day was exactly that. Less so today, but still very much a part of the business world. It's not what you know, but who you know. Social networks and nepotism still play a huge role in advancement, cohesiveness and personal ego strength of the participants.

Right down to what we consider pure ego, the type it takes to strive and survive, is affected by being easily accepted into the greater working world. Ego is erroneously mistaken for a function of what an individual thinks and feels about themselves. When really, it's what the person thinks of themselves, plus what he or she thinks others think of them.

As this is the case, ego is a general consensus construct that becomes internalized. This is why appearances are so important, why personal dignity is everything to us--and why black people have an aversion to being near us, as well. Until it is made abundantly clear that they are more than welcome to participate in white society, and no longer unfairly persecuted by the legal system, they will shy away. Who wants an existential as well as an ego crisis to have to deal with?

When blacks are viewed with suspicion or derision by whites, they understandably stick to their own.

[Emil El Zapato]

Very solid points, OG, and stated better than I was able...External social pressures surely do have a deleterious effect.

[Wind]

In USA the problem is not only systematic racism, but the real problem is class warfare.

It is beyond sad that there are no true leaders like MLK anymore. Even if there were, they too probably would be shot down.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1d/9c/4e/1d9c4ecb95b73a061e112f8a683a8f3a.jpg

[Wind]

Right down to what we consider pure ego, the type it takes to strive and survive, is affected by being easily accepted into the greater working world. Ego is erroneously mistaken for a function of what an individual thinks and feels about themselves. When really, it's what the person thinks of themselves, plus what he or she thinks others think of them.

As this is the case, ego is a general consensus construct that becomes internalized. This is why appearances are so important, why personal dignity is everything to us--and why black people have an aversion to being near us, as well. Until it is made abundantly clear that they are more than welcome to participate in white society, and no longer unfairly persecuted by the legal system, they will shy away. Who wants an existential as well as an ego crisis to have to deal with?

"Rationalism is the weapon by which the ego segregates the world: Me and them. Inside, outside. My tribe, their tribe. The good people, the bad people. This is the neurotic response that somehow comes out of the trauma of our evolution on the planet."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juYcaOD6lN8

[Chris]

Well, I am not going to mince my words here, thankfully, as a Hungarian citizen, I can still afford to be politically incorrect. I do not share the optimism of my dear TOT friends, as much as I respect your opinions.

I see plenty of evidence that the Left (at least in the US) is driven by an anti-white agenda. They are doing everything they can to remove white people from power and to replace the population with voters and supporters that are more amenable to support them, mostly black and brown people from the third world.

Normally, I wouldn't care about such trivial things such as skin colour and ethnicity, but the Left makes it an issue, because they care about little else and frame everything in that context. To them every issue is about race, skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, etc..., when those things in truth are trivial and irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. But, when they single out a particular race or ethnicity for constant, relentless attack and are demonstrably working towards their destruction, my sense of justice kicks in and I have to protect those that are being targeted. In this case, it happens to be my own ethnicity that is being targeted, but I would stand up to anyone that is being attacked in this way.

The Left in general, but Antifa and BLM thugs in particular see white people the way Nazis saw Jews.

They think that they are an oppressive force, that hide and conspire in the shadows to steal wealth, prosperity and material success from brown and black people and to quote a popular meme "They are rich because we are poor." That is all bullshit and demonstrably so. The last time an ethnic group was targeted for being richer and more successful than all the others, we got the Rwandan Genocide. Before that we had anti-Chinese pogroms. Before that we had the Holocaust. Before that, we had the Armenian Genocide. These massacres all have the same roots, it is envy from groups that are less successful, thinking that those that are wealthier and more successful than they are, got that way by stealing from them. That is exactly how Nazis talk about Jews even today, or Black South Africans about whites, black Americans about Whites, etc...

It isn't really their fault, because they have been brainwashed by the Left to blame white people for all their troubles and failures, yet they are the architects of their own disfunction. I am not going to stand by and stay silent whilst this anti-white racist agenda gets driven by the collective Left, increasingly globally.

#KillAllWhitePeople

[Aragorn]

Well, I am not going to mince my words here, thankfully, as a Hungarian citizen, I can still afford to be politically incorrect. I do not share the optimism of my dear TOT friends, as much as I respect your opinions.

I see plenty of evidence that the Left (at least in the US) is driven by an anti-white agenda. They are doing everything they can to remove white people from power and to replace the population with voters and supporters that are more amenable to support them, mostly black and brown people from the third world.

No, I'm afraid you're misinterpreting things. What the USA considers "the left" ─ i.e. the US Democrats ─ is almost just as racist (toward non-whites) as the alt-right. There are many racists among the US Democrats, and Hillary Clinton was prominently named as one of them.

Now, Antifa, that's a whole other thing. Antifa is a grassroots movement that got hijacked by fanatics, and I've already posted evidence higher up this thread that the alt-right has infiltrated Antifa, as well as imitated Antifa in order to commit crimes and then shove the blame off on Antifa.

As for Black Lives Matter, this is not just about the murder of George Floyd. Black Lives Matter has been around for a long time already, and has also for a long time already been vying against the ever-enduring lack of racial equality within the USA. Don't forget that people of color in the USA were not allowed to vote until the 1960s, and that Martin Luther King had to fight very hard to help the US overcome its innate and legalized racism. And then they assassinated him.

Also, the USA is a geographically very big country, with many different regional cultures, of which it is well known that the southern states are hotbeds of extreme right-wing movements and racism. And this situation has been allowed to persist, in spite of any more egalitarian management approaches elsewhere in the country. So there really still are black people (and Asians, and Native Americans) who are suffering racism every day, and it is also a well known fact that certain regional police departments in the USA maintain very corrupted and racist policies.

If you allow a situation like that to fester for so long, then inevitably, all that anger is going to build up and explode some day. The murder of George Floyd at the hands of a white police officer ─ and George Floyd was certainly not the only one who has befallen that fate in recent years ─ was simply the trigger. The water was too hot already, the kettle was already boiling, and now the lid has blown off.

And that's all there is to it.


The Left in general, but Antifa and BLM thugs in particular see white people the way Nazis saw Jews.

Or the way the Jews saw the Nazis? I don't think there would have been any Jew at all after World War II who had anything favorable to say about the Nazis. Hell, go to Israel and ask them for their opinion on the Nazis today ─ notwithstanding the fact that Israel as a state is pretty much doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews.


That is exactly how Nazis talk about Jews even today, or Black South Africans about whites, black Americans about Whites, etc...

Well, I can attest to the racism in South Africa. Many white South Africans are still racists ─ and I know a couple of them quite personally ─ but at the same time, there is also a reverse Apartheid thing going on there now, with the black acting out all of their decades of pent-up anger over the way the whites had been treating them.

And one of the reasons why is that those blacks aren't any smarter, because even though Nelson Mandela did his best to undo the damage, he was already an old man, and his successors were by far not as smart as he was. It was especially Jacob Zuma who did a lot of damage, by simply using his position as president to further enrich himself at the expense of his people, against the backdrop of the fact that the ANC, the biggest political party in South Africa, isn't actually a political party but a motley crew of anti-Apartheid activists. They have no political vision, no understanding of economics, and no idea on how to rebuild South Africa and turn it into a truly civilized country, where everyone can thrive, regardless of their race, creed or whatever.

At present time, South Africa is more or less run by corrupt police departments and crime syndicates ─ many of whom are actually Nigerians. Add to this the many years of hatred against white people because of the white oppression of the blacks, and what you get is a Wild West situation. Crime rules in South Africa, as does AIDS. The education system is seriously lacking, there is poverty, there are people living in slums that you wouldn't even dare call a house, and officials turn a blind eye to injustice committed by blacks against white people. The country's in chaos. And this in turn fans the flames among the white South Africans as well, who are now thinking back with nostalgia of how things were much more "orderly" when Apartheid still existed.

Well, the USA is not as extreme as South Africa yet, but what we're seeing in the USA now is just a taste of what has been going on in South Africa for many years now, thanks to ─ primarily ─ Jacob Zuma.

[Chris]

I wish I shared your optimism Aragorn, but I don't. I'm afraid all these so-called multicultural and multiracial societies are doomed. Only a question of time until they start resembling South Africa, Brazil or Venezuela, all well on the way to failed state-dom. They could work, if more sensible policies were implemented and Identity politics was banned. It would require an authoritarian state along the lines of Singapore. But, that's never going to happen in a Western-style democracy. The US seems to be the first domino to fall, with the UK and France following close behind.

[modwiz]

I wish I shared your optimism Aragorn, but I don't. I'm afraid all these so-called multicultural and multiracial societies are doomed. Only a question of time until they start resembling South Africa, Brazil or Venezuela, all well on the way to failed state-dom. They could work, if more sensible policies were implemented and Identity politics was banned. It would require an authoritarian state along the lines of Singapore. But, that's never going to happen in a Western-style democracy. The US seems to be the first domino to fall, with the UK and France following close behind.

I do find value in the views of those who live outside of America, as a point of interest. As any outsider can see, even those who live within the boundaries of the USA have differing views.

The interesting thing is how much the world wide media is involved.

I have been emotionally involved with many a media event in my years. But, after 67 of them, I have come to realize how much energy and attention of mine was distracted from my local reality.

I will always monitor the world situation while reacting to the local one.

[Aragorn]

I wish I shared your optimism Aragorn, but I don't. I'm afraid all these so-called multicultural and multiracial societies are doomed. Only a question of time until they start resembling South Africa, Brazil or Venezuela, all well on the way to failed state-dom. They could work, if more sensible policies were implemented and Identity politics was banned. It would require an authoritarian state along the lines of Singapore. But, that's never going to happen in a Western-style democracy. The US seems to be the first domino to fall, with the UK and France following close behind.

The sentence I've highlighted above in your quoted text says it all, Chris. I am a firm believer in education ─ not indoctrination with propaganda, but a proper upbringing and teaching ─ and I believe that guiding every individual onto becoming the best they can be while giving them all the chances they need, would help overcome these discrepancies that later in life turn into identity politics.

Am I a dreamer? Yes, quite possibly so. I do realize that our over-industrialized society ─ with an equally over-industrialized education system ─ is going to be very hard to replace by something less "cargo cult", if I'm using that term correctly. Maybe my own line of thinking in this regard would be some sort of cargo cult in and of itself. I don't mean to be naive in this. I am fully aware of the practical and organizational difficulties.

In fact, I think that the lockdowns enforced by the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic could have offered humanity a sufficiently compelling incentive for us all to change the way society works, but at the same time, I also had to observe how the opportunity was being missed because of the unimaginative and reactionary adherence to our old ways. Instead of going back to the drawing board, all our respective leaders (and other social bodies of power) could think about was how to bridge the time and return to our old ways as soon as possible.

So, no, I do not think that my idealistic belief would in any shape or form be a sign of cargo cult, and that it is indeed the western-capitalist society model that is the cargo cult, given that all logic dictates that neo-liberal capitalism itself must and will inevitably lead to a dead end due to the finite nature of Earth's resources, and yet the system ─ based upon an engineered inequality in opportunities, wealth and wellbeing ─ is being defended tooth and nail.

So, am I optimistic, as you seem to think I would be? No, actually not. On the contrary, I believe that things have been festering for way too long and that there's no other way out of our current situation anymore than through a very painful cataclysmic event. Something far more serious even than a pandemic ─ a complete reset, whereby there won't be enough survivors left to resume the industrialized operation of society as we've known it for so long, and whereby they will as such be forced by the circumstances to come up with an entirely different system.

And then maybe, just maybe, they'll do things right from the start this time around. But by the same token, they won't. After all, there have already been ample great civilizations that have all perished again because of their own short-sightedness, corruption and decadence. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast. :hmm:

:unsure:

[Chris]

The sentence I've highlighted above in your quoted text says it all, Chris. I am a firm believer in education ─ not indoctrination with propaganda, but a proper upbringing and teaching ─ and I believe that guiding every individual onto becoming the best they can be while giving them all the chances they need, would help overcome these discrepancies that later in life turn into identity politics.

Am I a dreamer? Yes, quite possibly so. I do realize that our over-industrialized society ─ with an equally over-industrialized education system ─ is going to be very hard to replace by something less "cargo cult", if I'm using that term correctly. Maybe my own line of thinking in this regard would be some sort of cargo cult in and of itself. I don't mean to be naive in this. I am fully aware of the practical and organizational difficulties.

In fact, I think that the lockdowns enforced by the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic could have offered humanity a sufficiently compelling incentive for us all to change the way society works, but at the same time, I also had to observe how the opportunity was being missed because of the unimaginative and reactionary adherence to our old ways. Instead of going back to the drawing board, all our respective leaders (and other social bodies of power) could think about was how to bridge the time and return to our old ways as soon as possible.

So, no, I do not think that my idealistic belief would in any shape or form be a sign of cargo cult, and that it is indeed the western-capitalist society model that is the cargo cult, given that all logic dictates that neo-liberal capitalism itself must and will inevitably lead to a dead end due to the finite nature of Earth's resources, and yet the system ─ based upon an engineered inequality in opportunities, wealth and wellbeing ─ is being defended tooth and nail.

So, am I optimistic, as you seem to think I would be? No, actually not. On the contrary, I believe that things have been festering for way too long and that there's no other way out of our current situation anymore than through a very painful cataclysmic event. Something far more serious even than a pandemic ─ a complete reset, whereby there won't be enough survivors left to resume the industrialized operation of society as we've known it for so long, and whereby they will as such be forced by the circumstances to come up with an entirely different system.

And then maybe, just maybe, they'll do things right from the start this time around. But by the same token, they won't. After all, there have already been ample great civilizations that have all perished again because of their own short-sightedness, corruption and decadence. Maybe it's just the nature of the beast. :hmm:

:unsure:

Well then, I was wrong and unfortunately, we are in full agreement regarding where this is all headed and the fate of the world :)

I would add that the collapse of global industrial civilisation is unlikely to play out the same way in every corner of the world. Some places will be fine. Like wherever our esteemed forum Wizard is bugging out right now, or quite possibly, my little corner of the world. As a matter of fact, we've (I mean Hungarians) survived far worse, within living memory, than the current ongoing collapse.

Last week we had to leave the office for the day because they found a WW2 Soviet bomb in our backyard and the demolition experts needed to be called in. We aren't even in the city but well out in the suburbs and this is a relatively small city, with around 100.000 inhabitants, or less. Yet, the shit was bombed out of us in 1944-45 as the Nazis were retreating and made this city by the Austrian border the last capital of fascist Hungary.

I think our civilisation will not collapse in its entirety, but perhaps we will see a replay of the collapse of the Roman Empire. The West was overrun by barbarians, sorry, I meant it got Merkelled and disappeared in a few short decades, whereas the East went on to thrive for another thousand years. Not sure how this will play out exactly, all bets are off at this point.

[Emil El Zapato]

Big topic and I don't have the stomach to carry on...but are you all saying that Africa is for Africans, the Americas are for the Native Americans, Europe is for the Europeans? Australia is for the Aboriginal? But since I am at the 96 percentile of Neanderthal gene carriers that REALLY means the whole world belongs to me?

Humans have some serious backtracking to do. The world is as it is, humans are as they are. What can we change? We can accept the reality and move forward in such a way that is in accord to our better spirits. Aspire to our true human nature, a nature carrying the ability to transcend the animal bits. Why don't we just do it?


"Rationalism is the weapon by which the ego segregates the world: Me and them. Inside, outside. My tribe, their tribe. The good people, the bad people. This is the neurotic response that somehow comes out of the trauma of our evolution on the planet."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juYcaOD6lN8

McKenna is a brilliant guy...

[Aragorn]

Big topic and I don't have the stomach to carry on...but are you all saying that Africa is for Africans, the Americas are for the Native Americans, Europe is for the Europeans? Australia is for the Aboriginal? But since I am at the 96 percentile of Neanderthal gene carriers that REALLY means the whole world belongs to me?

That is most definitely not what I was saying. :shocked:


Humans have some serious backtracking to do. The world is as it is, humans are as they are. What can we change? We can accept the reality and move forward in such a way that is in accord to our better spirits. Aspire to our true human nature, a nature carrying the ability to transcend the animal bits. Why don't we just do it?

That's a good question. :hmm:

[Emil El Zapato]

I know but your points about South Africa are harsh and likely very real. I've experienced this at my own level. I grew up in a white environment but when I moved to New Mexico I learned a lot about human nature and culture. Some of the environments I was in were dominated by Hispanics and there was a tendency to pick on the outsider, the white guy. It sickened and disheartened me. We had learned nothing in the hundreds of years of acculturation. But step out of the environment and the White man still ruled. We had a chance to act as ambassadors of good will and good will is absolutely paramount and we failed to act. What could be more discouraging?

PEOPLE are merciless and cruel which is why humanity desperately needs to embrace the message of Jesus!

Truth is, everyone was disinterested in the inner self of 'others'...cruelty begets cruelty...the animal speaking loud and clear...I was chided for being a 'potato'...Brown on the outside, white on the inside. I don't know perhaps that was the truth.

[Chris]

Trouble is people are tribal creatures and people from third world backgrounds even more so than others.

The world Kindness comes from Kin, it is the special treatment and consideration you show to those that are related to you by blood. That is why multiracial/ethnic/cultural societies are always doomed to failure in the end, though they can be really powerful for a while and oppress many peoples. Just ask the Ottoman Turks, Romans, Habsburgs, Soviets, Yugoslavs and now the Americans. There no longer is a common American Nation, like there was during WW2 and this lack of ethnic and national solidarity is what is leading to its downfall. It is every tribe for themselves, a sad but inevitable end of every empire in the End.

[Aragorn]

I know but your points about South Africa are harsh and likely very real.

Please don't get me wrong: I am in no way, shape or form a proponent of a return of Apartheid, but this is what many South Africans do long for, now that the formerly oppressed black population is allowed to take revenge upon the white population, and that white people now have to fight hard to even find a job in South Africa.

When president Frederik Willem De Klerk ended Apartheid and Nelson Mandela was elected as De Klerk's successor, the country was filled with hope. But Mandela was already an old man, and his party, the ANC, didn't have any experience in running a country. Like I said, they were just a politicized anti-Apartheid movement, and they had no vision on how to rebuild the country.

Mandela's successor Thabo Mbeki tried, but he was looking at the same incompetence within his own party as Mandela was, as well as nation-wide corruption and an invasion of foreign criminals, taking advantage of the chaos in South Africa. Then Mbeki was in turn succeeded by Jacob Zuma, a criminal, rapist and polygamist, and a good friend of Robert Mugabe, the despotic dictator of Zimbabwe. And all Zuma did was enrich himself at the expense of the nation, while the country was left in disarray. Mbeki tried several times to indict Zuma and have him ousted, but failed each time because of Zuma's power and the corruption in the legal system.

Meanwhile, South Africa has a new president again, because Zuma had served his two terms and was no longer eligible for re-election, but the problems in South Africa persist, and it's going to take a lot more than the ANC to fix it all. And meanwhile, the white-supremacists are also still around, and there regularly is violence ─ including drive-by shootings ─ between the white-supremacists and ANC members. Many South Africans own and carry a firearm, even if only because of the criminals roaming about.

[Emil El Zapato]

Trouble is people are tribal creatures and people from third world backgrounds even more so than others.

The world Kindness comes from Kin, it is the special treatment and consideration you show to those that are related to you by blood. That is why multiracial/ethnic/cultural societies are always doomed to failure in the end, though they can be really powerful for a while and oppress many peoples. Just ask the Ottoman Turks, Romans, Habsburgs, Soviets, Yugoslavs and now the Americans. There no longer is a common American Nation, like there was during WW2 and this lack of ethnic and national solidarity is what is leading to its downfall. It is every tribe for themselves, a sad but inevitable end of every empire in the End.

True, it is a literal subconscious calculation...Parent = 1, sibling = 2, child = 2, and so forth and so on. The evil gene? This governs the life and death process and is a primordial imperative, a very sound function 50,000 years ago. As a species are we still there?

[Emil El Zapato]

I had a Muslim neighbor that moved to the U.S. because of the violence and discrimination in South Africa. When he told me that, I inwardly was shaking my head and laughing.

[Chris]

Please don't get me wrong: I am in no way, shape or form a proponent of a return of Apartheid, but this is what many South Africans do long for, now that the formerly oppressed black population is allowed to take revenge upon the white population, and that white people now have to fight hard to even find a job in South Africa.

When president Frederik Willem De Klerk ended Apartheid and Nelson Mandela was elected as De Klerk's successor, the country was filled with hope. But Mandela was already an old man, and his party, the ANC, didn't have any experience in running a country. Like I said, they were just a politicized anti-Apartheid movement, and they had no vision on how to rebuild the country.

Mandela's successor Thabo Mbeki tried, but he was looking at the same incompetence within his own party as Mandela was, as well as nation-wide corruption and an invasion of foreign criminals, taking advantage of the chaos in South Africa. Then Mbeki was in turn succeeded by Jacob Zuma, a criminal, rapist and polygamist, and a good friend of Robert Mugabe, the despotic dictator of Zimbabwe. And all Zuma did was enrich himself at the expense of the nation, while the country was left in disarray. Mbeki tried several times to indict Zuma and have him ousted, but failed each time because of Zuma's power and the corruption in the legal system.

Meanwhile, South Africa has a new president again, because Zuma had served his two terms and was no longer eligible for re-election, but the problems in South Africa persist, and it's going to take a lot more than the ANC to fix it all. And meanwhile, the white-supremacists are also still around, and there regularly is violence ─ including drive-by shootings ─ between the white-supremacists and ANC members. Many South Africans own and carry a firearm, even if only because of the criminals roaming about.

The sad truth is, that with a couple of exceptions (such as Namibia or Zambia), most of the de-colonised African nations have failed. What does that tell you about the ability of African people in general to govern themselves?

Of course whitey gets the blame for this too, but the reality is that Africa was equally chaotic and lawless before colonisation, it is just reverting to its old state.

[Emil El Zapato]

i dunno, I know corruption runs rampant in poor environments.

I've had close working relationships with 2 Nigerians and the one thing I learned is they don't seem to thrive on personal morals:
One of them took some bio-remediation products (His sister was a physician in London) to the halls of government. He had government connections through his father. They laughed him out of the building apparently. He complained of the corruption and said his country would never evolve as long as the government had its corrupt hand out and in the pockets of the citizens. Did you watch the video I posted earlier? The Ted talks speaker is an international Global Witness and investigator (even undercover). She talks about how individual powerful Africans can sell out their country of valuable resources by collaborating with British and American banksters. It wasn't by accident that I posted that here.

[Chris]

I'm at work, posting on the sly. Can't watch videos.

[Emil El Zapato]

me too, but I'm not very sly... :)

[Wind]

The world Kindness comes from Kin, it is the special treatment and consideration you show to those that are related to you by blood. That is why multiracial/ethnic/cultural societies are always doomed to failure in the end, though they can be really powerful for a while and oppress many peoples. Just ask the Ottoman Turks, Romans, Habsburgs, Soviets, Yugoslavs and now the Americans. There no longer is a common American Nation, like there was during WW2 and this lack of ethnic and national solidarity is what is leading to its downfall. It is every tribe for themselves, a sad but inevitable end of every empire in the End.

I assume that you're a white person as I am Chris. To me it makes no sense to say that the white, or nordic people only are my kin. When I was young, this country was already been turning into a multiracial country. Not so much as now, but I never grew up in a "white only" country. My neighbors and best friends in my childhood were muslims, there were also many ethnicities around. Asians came here way before. I grew up not differentiating between race and skin color, all I see is people. This might not be so for everyone in every country. For my father and his generation the change has probably been much harder to accept. He grew up in a culture of whites for the whites.

I would go to hell and back to protect my family, but I refuse to think in tribalistic ways. That is the old way of programming. It is "normal" for anyone to love their immediate family. Even murderers and serial killers are known to do that. You can honor and venerate your ancestry, but know that every human being is part of one global family… All of us being brothers and sisters of humanity.

As long as we cannot feel and realize that we cannot know peace and we will be doomed to repeat the violent mistakes of the past.

[Octopus Garden]

The sad truth is, that with a couple of exceptions (such as Namibia or Zambia), most of the de-colonised African nations have failed. What does that tell you about the ability of African people in general to govern themselves?

Of course whitey gets the blame for this too, but the reality is that Africa was equally chaotic and lawless before colonisation, it is just reverting to its old state.


So many powerful comments all around. Thanks to all. It's wonderful. Chris, just a quick point here. The worst serial offenders, when it comes to war, war profiteering, power madness was Europe. You've described some of those dynamics, yourself. Somehow (and I am not referring to you specifically) we imagine that blacks are one race or a singular ethnicity, who can't get along with each other. And they should, because they are basically one big tribe--wrong.

There are multiple black ethnic groups living on a huge continent, who are as prone to fighting for power as much as any other group. Genetically they are much more diverse than Europeans. There are a couple of tribes living in close proximity who have less in common with each other than they may have with Asians.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

[modwiz]

There are many thoughtful ideas in this thread worthy of Wisdom overseeing things.

In fact, it coulld make for a beautiful roundtable of discussion. But, only with the technology ( skype, zoom, FB messenger, google chat) so ubiquitous at this point in our internet usage.

All topics of meaning are worthy of a face to face forum. Modern tech allows that to happen from multiple continents.

Methinks most people prefer anonymity.

The anti-thesis of a community.

[Aragorn]

There are many thoughtful ideas in this thread worthy of Wisdom overseeing things.

In fact, it coulld make for a beautiful roundtable of discussion. But, only with the technology ( skype, zoom, FB messenger, google chat) so ubiquitous at this point in our internet usage.

All topics of meaning are worthy of a face to face forum. Modern tech allows that to happen from multiple continents.

Methinks most people prefer anonymity.

The anti-thesis of a community.

I support the idea of a conference on Zoom (or a similar platform) about this subject ─ and about other subjects as well ─ but there is always the problem of the timezone discrepancy. Something like this would have to be quite meticulously planned in advance, which in turn is at odds with the rapidly shifting political environment across the globe.

It's not easy. :hmm:

[modwiz]

I support the idea of a conference on Zoom (or a similar platform) about this subject ─ and about other subjects as well ─ but there is always the problem of the timezone discrepancy. Something like this would have to be quite meticulously planned in advance, which in turn is at odds with the rapidly shifting political environment across the globe.

It's not easy. :hmm:

I do wonder if the time zones are not clues to us as to where our primary focus might be, but that is an aside to your point.

However, as you suggest, meticulous planning in advance would be required. I like it because it balances with the gravitas one lends it.

I, for one, am curious. Always optimistic regarding possibilties.

And, I was just trying to get out of having to opine in a thread.:grin:

[Aragorn]

I support the idea of a conference on Zoom (or a similar platform) about this subject ─ and about other subjects as well ─ but there is always the problem of the timezone discrepancy. Something like this would have to be quite meticulously planned in advance, which in turn is at odds with the rapidly shifting political environment across the globe.

It's not easy. :hmm:

I do wonder if the time zones are not clues to us as to where our primary focus might be, but that is an aside to your point.

But then again, the events in our respective timezones all seem to be originating from the events in the USA ─ as an example, there was a Black Lives Matter protest in Brussels over the weekend. Because, like it or not, not only is the USA a military and financial-economic superpower, but its cultural influences ─ in combination with the information in our news reports, which, unlike in the USA itself, also look beyond our own borders ─ have very far-reaching consequences.

The USA has always been very proficient at exporting both its culture and its problems. :rolleyes:


However, as you suggest, meticulous planning in advance would be required. I like it because it balances with the gravitas one lends it.

I, for one, am curious. Always optimistic regarding possibilties.

And, I was just trying to get out of having to opine in a thread.:grin:

Well, I am open to the initiative. So long as it's not today. :p

[modwiz]

The USA has always been very proficient at exporting both its culture and its problems. :rolleyes:


All of the good cultures of America are local. Closest export of true American culture is most of what is considered 'black'.

Older instances of this culture are preferred.

And, anything 'hillbilly'.

The 'export' variety of American culture is like shipping its toxic waste abroad. It is disgusting.:frusty:

[Chris]

I assume that you're a white person as I am Chris. To me it makes no sense to say that the white, or nordic people only are my kin. When I was young, this country was already been turning into a multiracial country. Not so much as now, but I never grew up in a "white only" country. My neighbors and best friends in my childhood were muslims, there were also many ethnicities around. Asians came here way before. I grew up not differentiating between race and skin color, all I see is people. This might not be so for everyone in every country. For my father and his generation the change has probably been much harder to accept. He grew up in a culture of whites for the whites.

I would go to hell and back to protect my family, but I refuse to think in tribalistic ways. That is the old way of programming. It is "normal" for anyone to love their immediate family. Even murderers and serial killers are known to do that. You can honor and venerate your ancestry, but know that every human being is part of one global family… All of us being brothers and sisters of humanity.

As long as we cannot feel and realize that we cannot know peace and we will be doomed to repeat the violent mistakes of the past.

I don't subscribe to tribalism myself, just pointing out its origins.

In my experience, the poorer, less developed a country is, the more tribal its society becomes. Of course extremely wealthy and developed advanced nations (discounting the USA here for obvious reasons) don't really have this. At least, not among the native population, but you can bet your bottom dollar that immigrant communities are very tribal indeed and this is being exploited by the Left in terms of identity politics. Cue Joe BuyThem and his inane comment that if you're not voting for him "you ain't black", as if no black person could ever identify with conservative values, instead of liberal ones.

[Chris]

So many powerful comments all around. Thanks to all. It's wonderful. Chris, just a quick point here. The worst serial offenders, when it comes to war, war profiteering, power madness was Europe. You've described some of those dynamics, yourself. Somehow (and I am not referring to you specifically) we imagine that blacks are one race or a singular ethnicity, who can't get along with each other. And they should, because they are basically one big tribe--wrong.

There are multiple black ethnic groups living on a huge continent, who are as prone to fighting for power as much as any other group. Genetically they are much more diverse than Europeans. There are a couple of tribes living in close proximity who have less in common with each other than they may have with Asians.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-genetics-science-africa/

True, but it's more complex than that.

Genetically speaking, the Europid race (which included Arabs, North Indians and Europeans) is a descendant of Ethiopians, with some Neanderthal admixture, which led to features such as red/blonde hair, blue/green eyes, lighter skin, freckles and a higher risk of depression. It pays to note here that Ethiopia is the only Sub-Saharan African nation that was never colonised and has managed to develop its own advanced civilisation, with its own writing system, art and its own version of the Bible and Christianity. I think it's no coincidence that their descendants, who spread North from Ethiopia to North Africa and larger parts of Eurasia, became similarly successful in building civilisations. I personally think that the hybridisation of Cro-Magnon as it encountered Neanderthals spreading North, also played a significant role.

[Chris]

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/06/09/can-we-survive-our-collective-stupidity/

Can We Survive Our Collective Stupidity?

Paul Craig Roberts

I have come to the conclusion that collectively Americans are mentally and emotionally stupid. On any given day there is endless evidence that this is the case. Just a few selections from news of the last couple of days should suffice to establish the point.

Instead of reforming police training as a rational response to George Floyd’s death from an aggressive restraint technique, the Minneapolis city council voted to disband the Minneapolis police. Council woman Lisa Bender responded to a citizen’s question what she is supposed to do if she faces a threat in her home and there are no police to call: “Yes, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors. And I know — and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege.”

In other words, the Minneapolis citizen’s concern is not legitimate and merely reflects her privileged assumption that she is entitled to protection by police. The valid concern is to protect blacks from the police by disbanding the police.

Kristina Roth of Amnesty International wrote to me in a fundraiser that “Police must stop killing black people.” What about white people, Kristina? White lives matter, too. The police shoot to death far more white people every year than black people— https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/06/03/all-races-suffer-from-police-violence/ . Shouldn’t Kristina be demanding that “police must stop killing people?” Why does Kristina blame racism instead of police training? Kristina needs to read and reflect upon this: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/06/08/the-sociology-of-police-violence-racism-isnt-the-real-problem/ .

The top editor of the Philadelphia Inquirer had to resign because of the headline on a reporter’s article. The article was very sympathic to the black rioters but didn’t quite see the point of blacks destroying historic buildings in Philadelphia because of what happened to George Floyd in Minneapolis. The editor was done in by the article’s headline: “Buildings Matter, Too.” This incensed the woke morons, and despite his groveling apology the editor was removed— https://www.rt.com/usa/491122-philadelphia-editor-resigns-headline/ . So much for “white privilege.” White newspaper editors cannot even exercise freedom of speech in the choice of headlines.

Not even editors at the New York Times, which grovels at the feet of blacks and self-righteous woke, can survive their exercise of freedom of the press—https://www.rt.com/usa/491143-nytimes-oped-editor-resigns-cotton/ . The opinion editor and his deputy had to resign for publishing Senator Tom Cotton’s call to deploy the military to protect people and property from the rioters and looters. I am confident that the NY Times published Sen. Cotton’s article with the intention of damning Cotton for not being more sympathetic to black looters. But the woke creatures and the NY Times publisher A.G.Sulzberger removed the editors because of “the pain they inflicted.”

Pain inflicted on who? The pain inflicted on owners of businesses, buildings, and cars destroyed by rioters using violence to express their disapproval of violence? No. As Lisa Bender put it, these concerns don’t matter as they come “from a place of privilege.” Only the pain of those privileged to riot and loot counts.

As kids we used to say, “sticks and stones might break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” Today for the woke weaklings the wrong word is like a nuclear weapon. They collapse in tears and recriminations. NY Times Staffers claimed that by publishing Sen. Cotton’s article, the opinion editor had put their lives in danger by not validating looting and rioting as a valid exercise of free speech. Somehow it did not occur to Sulzberger that the protesters must not be so innocent if NY Times staffers are in fear of their lives because of a few words from a US Senator.

JK Rowling is in trouble again from the transgender freaks who reject the word “woman” as transphobic. Rowling took exception to the term “people who menstruate.” and caused “unimaginable pain” by remarking that there used to be a word for “people who menstruate”—women. https://www.rt.com/news/491077-rowling-trans-women-row/

A professor of criminology at the University of North Carolina has been denounced by the university administration for “vile and inexcusable comments,” such as “Don’t shut down the universities; shut down non-essential majors like women’s studies” —https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/professor-controversy-tweet-university-north-carolina-wilmington-adams/index.html . The UNC administration says “we are very carefully and assertively reviewing our options in terms of how to proceed.” The hypocritical administration went on to say “Hateful, hurtful language aimed at degrading others is contrary to our university values and our commitment to an environment of respect and dignity. Its appearance on any platform, including the personal platforms of anyone affiliated with UNCW, is absolutely reprehensible.” What nonsense! Everyday on the UNC campus black studies professors teach students that white people are racists and slavers, and women’s studies professors demonize men as misogynists and rapists. The hypocrites that comprise university administrations never do anything about this “reprehensible, hateful, and hurtful language” aimed at white people and at men.

A retired US Navy captain had to resign from the US Naval Academy Alumni Association board after a private conversation with his wife was accidentally streamed on Facebook. The captain used the n-word and said that white men “can’t say anything.” His wife complained of Chinese who “steal all of our intellectual property.” The couple are mortified and deeply sorry to have spoken in derogatory terms “about our fellow man,” a regret that black rioters and intellectual property thiefs do not reciprocate. The alunmi association said that these private comments are “not consistent with our leadership mission.” The couple have committed themselves to “using this experience as an opportunity to grow, listen, learn, and reflect . . . and being better people”—https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/07/us/navy-captain-racial-slurs-facebook/index.html.

The groveling of Sulzberger at the NY Times, the groveling at the Philadelphia Inquirer, the groveling by the Minneapolis city council and by submissive police officers will only encourage the black violence that decades of being taught to hate white people has unleashed. As I have said so many times, a diverse, multicultural society cannot be built on hatred. If blacks today had a real leader like Martin Luther King, Jr., that leader would be protesting police violence against people irrespective of race. Such a protest would be a unifying act instead of a divisive one. People such as myself could again see hope for American society.

Perhaps women could also find a leader, and men and women could get back together in loving, mutually supportive relationships. When I read that feminists have created men who prefer plastic “sex dolls” to a flesh and blood woman with emotions and a brain, I put “#Me/Too” in the catagory of bioweapons—https://www.rt.com/sport/484358-kazakh-bodybuilder-sex-doll-marriage-coronavirus/. The body builder who is marrying a sex doll might be on a public relations trip to boost his following, but his “marriage” to a piece of plastic is credible only because relations between men and women have been so badly damaged by feminists that it is believable that he prefers a sex doll to a real woman. According to beastiality advocates, some women prefer their dog to a man.

Western civilization is collapsing because allegations from the least credible sources carry more weight than facts. Emotions have displaced facts as the basis for understanding. Emotion routinely shouts down facts. It has become commonplace in universities for distinguished authorities to be shut down because the facts are unacceptable to the ignorant woke students, backed up by a roster of administrative thought police.

Universities have abandoned their mission of searching for truth. They have become propaganda ministries that spew the acids that eat away foundations of civilization.

In Western Civilization today, the best way to destroy yourself is to stand up for truth. I am getting tired of it as support for the defense of truth is declining away.

There is a lesson for the warmonger neoconservatives in the extraordinary weakness that is now the core of Western Civilization, a civilization that is a discredited concept in every American university and is being damned again by the NY Times’ 1619 Project. It is hilarious that neoconservatives proclaimed a people as divided as the US, with the majority white population on the defensive, to be an exceptional and indispensable people.

The US armed forces are a hodgepod of men, women, lesbians, homosexuals, a racial medley, and every element in it has been instructed by Identity Politics to hate and distrust the other. Armies devoid of the homogeneity that gives unity are useless. Only a fool would put an American or any European army against Russia and China. What will be our fate if the aggressive bombast that the neoconservatives and fellow travelers such as Liz Cheney —https://www.newsmax.com/politics/liz-cheney-germany-troops-withdrawal/2020/06/06/id/970894/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=mixi&utm_campaign=newsmax —keep pumping out of Washington results in concerted Russian/Chinese action against the threat that the West is determined to portray itself to be?

The hope for humanity is that the Russians and Chinese remain patient as the West continues its collapse under the weight of its own self-hate.

[modwiz]

No observer could deny that great changes (perhaps a reset?) are happening now.

Observing from the center of the storm affords one the proper frame of mind to ascertain the relentless data stream.

[Chris]

No observer could deny that great changes (perhaps a reset?) are happening now.

Observing from the center of the storm affords one the proper frame of mind to ascertain the relentless data stream.

A fourth turning probably, but it could be an entire civilisational collapse. We'll see.

[Emil El Zapato]

I don't subscribe to tribalism myself, just pointing out its origins.

In my experience, the poorer, less developed a country is, the more tribal its society becomes. Of course extremely wealthy and developed advanced nations (discounting the USA here for obvious reasons) don't really have this. At least, not among the native population, but you can bet your bottom dollar that immigrant communities are very tribal indeed and this is being exploited by the Left in terms of identity politics. Cue Joe BuyThem and his inane comment that if you're not voting for him "you ain't black", as if no black person could ever identify with conservative values, instead of liberal ones.

:) that isn't cultural exploitation, that is reality. Here we go full tilt, I've actually expressed to my daughter (and I am always circumspect about what I say to her) that any Hispanic that votes conservative deserves to be horse whipped (not an uncommon old world disciplinary action). It is selling out one's heritage, plain and simple. Circumspect because her stepdad is a conservative and Hispanic that holds most of the inane beliefs of the right...He's a mechanical engineer but ain't all that bright. For all intents and purposes he is a macho sissy.

[Emil El Zapato]

Instead of reforming police training as a rational response to George Floyd’s death from an aggressive restraint technique, the Minneapolis city council voted to disband the Minneapolis police. Council woman Lisa Bender responded to a citizen’s question what she is supposed to do if she faces a threat in her home and there are no police to call: “Yes, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors. And I know — and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege.”

This is the part that is being misinterpreted, it is the author that is stupid, Chris. Disbanding doesn't mean abandonment of all common sense, what it calls for is a restructuring from the ground up and smart people on working on what that means. Some really good models exist in the U.S. and that is what they are looking at.

[Dreamtimer]

The systemic racism that is current is exactly that. Current. You don't get over something that is continual and affecting your day-to-day life.

Chris, do young folks in your country have to have 'the talk'? If you don't know what that is, it's the talk which black folks have to have with their children when they reach an age to be able to understand. The talk is about how they might be targeted or pulled over by the police and they may get beaten or arrested or worse when they have committed no offense. They are told how to handle themselves and how to try not to further 'provoke' the police so that they can get home alive that day.

This isn't some historical thing that is only in the past. This is present.

Do you have anything parallel to that where you live?

Are their folks in your country who get targeted by the authorities simply because of their appearance? To the point that their parents have to educate them about it before they're grown?

When this sort of thing goes on for generations and you have brothers and uncles and fathers (and female relatives too) who are no longer with you because they were 'driving while black' or doing some other thing 'while black', what do you think the reaction would be?

[Chris]

The systemic racism that is current is exactly that. Current. You don't get over something that is continual and affecting your day-to-day life.

Chris, do young folks in your country have to have 'the talk'? If you don't know what that is, it's the talk which black folks have to have with their children when they reach an age to be able to understand. The talk is about how they might be targeted or pulled over by the police and they may get beaten or arrested or worse when they have committed no offense. They are told how to handle themselves and how to try not to further 'provoke' the police so that they can get home alive that day.

This isn't some historical thing that is only in the past. This is present.

Do you have anything parallel to that where you live?

Are their folks in your country who get targeted by the authorities simply because of their appearance? To the point that their parents have to educate them about it before they're grown?

When this sort of thing goes on for generations and you have brothers and uncles and fathers (and female relatives too) who are no longer with you because they were 'driving while black' or doing some other thing 'while black', what do you think the reaction would be?

Yes, Gypsies, or the Roma as they are also known are often targeted by the police. Though I am not aware of any deaths in police custody during or after an arrest.

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the legacy of racism all over the world, but you also have to look at the causes, not just assume that the police is picking on a particular ethnic group for no reason. That is nothwithstanding that the Police in the US in general is far too militarised and aggressive, but that again is not that surprising, given the amount of general violence and the free availability of guns.

Basically, my point is, that it is complicated and you can't just blame everything on racist cops. There is a whole cultural issue here that is very deep-seated and has no easy or apparent solution. The problem is you can't even talk about it in your country in any honest fashion, except to repeat communist slogans affirming your undying loyalty to the cause of wokeness. I can talk about it, because I'm in Hungary and nobody is going to arrest, fire or deplatform me because of my un-PC opinions, but my opinions would be illegal in many so-called "Western" liberal democracies.

The way I see it, there is currently an armed insurrection going on in the United States. The rioters should be arrested, if they resist and attack the cops, then shot dead. The ringleaders of this insurrection should be arrested and put away for a very long time. All those in support of the rioting, including journalists, media personalities, politcians and such should also be arrested and charged. I realise that is never going to happen, so I assume the USA is just going to collapse into lawlessness, ethnic strife and probably civil war. That is the inevitable outcome of failing to protect the rule of law and allowing criminals and terrorists to set the agenda.


Instead of reforming police training as a rational response to George Floyd’s death from an aggressive restraint technique, the Minneapolis city council voted to disband the Minneapolis police. Council woman Lisa Bender responded to a citizen’s question what she is supposed to do if she faces a threat in her home and there are no police to call: “Yes, I hear that loud and clear from a lot of my neighbors. And I know — and myself, too, and I know that that comes from a place of privilege.”

This is the part that is being misinterpreted, it is the author that is stupid, Chris. Disbanding doesn't mean abandonment of all common sense, what it calls for is a restructuring from the ground up and smart people on working on what that means. Some really good models exist in the U.S. and that is what they are looking at.

No, they were very clear that they are going to defund the police department and gradually dismantle it. Instead they will have community outreach officers and such. It is a recipe for disaster, if you ask me.

[Dreamtimer]

Many people do talk about the real issues. The police do well when they actually come from the communities where they work.

The history of the police in America includes bringing slaves back to slave owners. That legacy is difficult to overcome. It doesn't just magically happen, it takes awareness and effort.

Have you listened to any of the Micheal Wood Jr. episodes of the Joe Rogan podcast? They're here for the listening. He was a Baltimore cop for many years and he talks about how they would go out to target people and kick their asses. It's a good listen, from the horse's mouth.

We still have a lot of work to do and I don't buy the 'You can't talk about...' stuff. We can and we must.

Any time someone tells me I can't talk about something then I talk about it. I don't let others shut me up.

It's what you have to do to bring change.

And, of course, as a white woman who is not poor I'm much less likely to be targeted. In fact, I get the opposite. I've gotten warnings for things others would have been arrested and had their cars impounded for.

[Emil El Zapato]

Camouflaged righties and Antifa would make for great television. I wonder who is really the greatest danger.

Kinda like the digitally animated battles between Tigers and Lions. I still refuse to believe that the Tiger lost and my daughter still says, of course it did.

[Chris]

Many people do talk about the real issues. The police do well when they actually come from the communities where they work.

The history of the police in America includes bringing slaves back to slave owners. That legacy is difficult to overcome. It doesn't just magically happen, it takes awareness and effort.

Have you listened to any of the Micheal Wood Jr. episodes of the Joe Rogan podcast? They're here for the listening. He was a Baltimore cop for many years and he talks about how they would go out to target people and kick their asses. It's a good listen, from the horse's mouth.

We still have a lot of work to do and I don't buy the 'You can't talk about...' stuff. We can and we must.

Any time someone tells me I can't talk about something then I talk about it. I don't let others shut me up.

It's what you have to do to bring change.

And, of course, as a white woman who is not poor I'm much less likely to be targeted. In fact, I get the opposite. I've gotten warnings for things others would have been arrested and had their cars impounded for.

You can talk about it, because you have the "right" opinions. As soon as your opinions deviate from the tiny little postage stamp consensus that Americans are allowed, you are on perilous water.

There are many topics I can't even bring up on this forum, because they would be too controversial, I am actually holding back. They are common sense opinions but in the Land of the Free (and by that, I mean the entire Western World), they are strictly Verboten. I could easily discuss it with my friends in Hungarian or even write a newspaper opinion column about it if I had access to one and it would be completely fine, as long as nobody in the English-speaking world found out about it.

[Emil El Zapato]

that's interesting....

[Wind]

Just listen to this and tell me that there aren't major problems that needs to fixed.


http://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go

[Emil El Zapato]

that was part of Gio's John Oliver video...it was indeed very powerful...

I think she is Black Lives Matter from Houston...

[Chris]

Just listen to this and tell me that there aren't major problems that needs to fixed.


http://youtu.be/sb9_qGOa9Go

These people, that are burning down cities and destroying other people's property are savages. They do not deserve to live in a first world country where they are given all these wonderful opportunities for advancement and make nothing of it. They blame others for their own failures and think they have the right to steal the prosperity that others have worked hard for. They are destroying America and I'm sorry that so few people see it. This is all because of brainwashing, a typical communist technique, which has now entirely infiltrated the entirety of the media and academia. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

[Emil El Zapato]

you didn't watch it did you, Chris? It doesn't matter, one of the things I always find difficult to accept is when 'only' 65% of the population agrees about injustice. You know what though, that means 65% do agree and that is inspiring. One body more than 50% means that people are making spiritual, moral, psychological, and cognitive breakthroughs.

[Wind]

I disagree, Chris. I think society needs a certain amount of anarchy. Too much authoritarianism isn't good and there's plenty of it now.

Once again I want to make it clear that I don't support violence, but I totally understand why it happens. Revolutions are needed.

[Emil El Zapato]

that such an ironic statement, Wind. That is, after all, how America was founded. Something conservatives conveniently ALWAYS forget! It really is dense.

[Wind]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTJLsAgOlko

[Chris]

you didn't watch it did you, Chris? It doesn't matter, one of the things I always find difficult to accept is when 'only' 65% of the population agrees about injustice. You know what though, that means 65% do agree and that is inspiring. One body more than 50% means that people are making spiritual, moral, psychological, and cognitive breakthroughs.

I did watch it. Can't imagine a better recruitment video for the KKK.

This kind of thinking is seriously wrong and is just flaming the already serious racial animosity that was bubbling below the surface.

There is no excuse for criminal and thuggish behaviour, not even if it is underpinned by shouting communist slogans at the top of your lung.

As far as I'm concerned, all communists are scum.

[Chris]

I disagree, Chris. I think society needs a certain amount of anarchy. Too much authoritarianism isn't good and there's plenty of it now.

Once again I want to make it clear that I don't support violence, but I totally understand why it happens. Revolutions are needed.

Yes, you are right, it is a revolution.

When the revolutionary committee is rounding up people for execution in your neck of the woods, I hope you'll remember what you said here.

It is easy to be a revolutionary thousands of miles away.

[Aragorn]

As far as I'm concerned, all communists are scum.

Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?

[Chris]

Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?

I don't know, if he was an actual communist, but if he was then yes. He lived during a time when the crimes of communism have already been exposed and readily apparent to everyone.

[Aragorn]

Would you say that John Lennon was a scum?

I don't know, if he was an actual communist, but if he was then yes. He lived during a time when the crimes of communism have already been exposed and readily apparent to everyone.

You are making the mistake of conflating the ideology with the way it was implemented (or used as an excuse for authoritarianism) by fallible humans. All socialist and proto-communist regimes have committed severe crimes, because all of those regimes were started and led by fallible and morally corrupted people who, in their own interpretation of what they were doing, were actually doing the exact opposite of what communism was supposed to be all about in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I personally feel that outright communism as an ideology goes just a little bit too far for my taste, because it's not organic and not flexible enough to adhere to common sense. It's too bureaucratic, and life itself ─ whether biological or social ─ does not abide by the rigid rules of bureaucracy. But capitalism is even worse than that, and it was/is the capitalist mindset of communist/socialist revolutionaries like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mugabe, Ernesto "Che" Guevara, Laurent Desiré Kabila and the Kim dynasty of North Korea, that caused them to become ethically corrupt.

One of the major hurdles socialism has always had to overcome is that there isn't a single nation on this planet that's economically and logistically self-sufficient. All nations have to engage in trade with other nations. And considering that the global economical landscape (and thus international trade) is decisively capitalist/corporatist ─ and primarily driven by the USA, itself a corporatist-fascist economical and military superpower ─ it follows that each and every proto-communist or socialist nation could and can only ever exist as an enclave within this capitalist/corporatist global landscape.

As such, and given that socialism does demand integrity, deliberation, fairness and commitment, the purveyors of socialist or proto-communist regimes have themselves always been tempted by the illusory benefits of capitalism. As long as there will be the temptation of personal enrichment ─ as promised by capitalism ─ there will be moral corruption among the ruling castes in socialist/proto-communist regimes. The very existence of such castes ─ including the political leadership itself ─ is in and of itself anathema to socialism. But that, alas, is where the Dunning-Kruger effect kicks in.

[Chris]

Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.

I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.

[Aragorn]

Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.

No, that's where you are wrong. You are conflating socialism and communism ─ which are egalitarian ideologies intended to empower the people ─ with how socialist/communist revolutions have always worked out. And from where I'm sitting, egalitarianism is peaceful and just.

National-socialism on the other hand was a form of fascism ─ and thus: the opposite of socialism ─ that focused on ethnic purification. There is no possible justification for national-socialism ─ ever.

Your reaction is ─ and I'm sorry to have to be so blunt ─ just a knee-jerk, based upon the traumatic experiences you've had in your own country when it was still governed by the Soviet regime.


I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.

Socialism and communism are not about theft, destruction or any other criminal activity, although communism proper does condemn private possession ─ and that's where it goes too far for me, and why I cannot support it. The basis for both communism and socialism however is that all natural resources and the means for production are the property of everyone and no one. And that's all there is to it.

Also, social-democracy is not socialism. It is nothing other than a loosely regulated form of capitalism, so as to avoid the formation of monopolies. And it's just as rife with both ethical and financial corruption as fascism proper, and as the self-proclaimed communist regimes are.

[Emil El Zapato]

Chris, obviously, you and yours have lived it, so I wouldn't try to 'convince' you to think otherwise, what you experienced was very real, but as in all ideologies there are always those that will twist anything within their scope of influence to their liking and the people that do that are not good people, they are authoritarians.

Black society can burn buildings but they can't burn books...the power is just not there...they seek balance just as the video eloquently and vehemently demonstrated. The ability to twist ANY authoritarian ideal is losing ground...right now, and God bless God for allowing it to be so.

[Chris]

Anyways, I am going to stay away from this topic from now as it causes too much acrimony. Let's just say that we are all products of our environment and upbringing to a certain degree and there is very little we can do about it.

Black people in the US grow up with a victim mentality, as do most other minorities, thinking that they're being oppressed by The (white) Man and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change their minds.

My strategy from hereon in is to let the US and the West in general implode, since there is nothing I can do about it anyways, whilst enjoying the peace and tranquility of my local environment. As long as these thugs, sorry, I meant revolutionaries stay away from my locale, I am beyond caring.

Have fun with the revolution guys, just remember, all revolutions eventually consume their children.

[Emil El Zapato]

:) ok, we'll let it go...for now...

[Aragorn]

Anyways, I am going to stay away from this topic from now as it causes too much acrimony.

Well now, that's a pity, because this has so far been one of the best threads on the forum in recent times. I've even moved it from Future Talk to the Highlighted Threads category only a few days ago.


Let's just say that we are all products of our environment and upbringing to a certain degree and there is very little we can do about it.

That is true, but that's why it is important that we put ourselves into a neutral perspective when talking of abstract concepts that by definition must transcend our personal biases.


Black people in the US grow up with a victim mentality, as do most other minorities, thinking that they're being oppressed by The (white) Man and no amount of evidence to the contrary is going to change their minds.

I do not entirely agree with that. The phenomenon of racism is very real in the USA, and the very success of Donald Trump ─ a known white-supremacist ─ only proves that it has never gone away. Again, Martin Luther King vied for the rights of African-Americans and paid for it with his life ─ on my fifth birthday, and I'm not that old. Don't forget that.

On the other hand, there are indeed also opportunists who are abusing the situation for their own personal benefit and/or agenda. This is true. And then there are the ideological mercenaries, who will align themselves with whatever the cause of the day is, simply out of their addiction to drama and/or because they're looking for a brawl. And that in and of itself isn't even an American phenomenon, because you'll find people like that in every culture.

And, to make it all even worse and further muddle the waters, not everything is as it seems when it comes to these riots. The alt-right has been spreading disinformation about alleged atrocities committed by Antifa that in reality never took place, as well as that they've been conducting some false flag operations of their own under the Antifa banner, so as to make Antifa look even worse than it already did.

And to top it all off, even on the so-called left side of the equation, disinformation is now starting to spread. And then everything gets blown up to even greater proportions by the sheer impact of the phenomenon called "social media". Suddenly everyone and their dog is an expert, a witness or a victim.


My strategy from hereon in is to let the US and the West in general implode, since there is nothing I can do about it anyways, whilst enjoying the peace and tranquility of my local environment. As long as these thugs, sorry, I meant revolutionaries stay away from my locale, I am beyond caring.

Have fun with the revolution guys, just remember, all revolutions eventually consume their children.

No one here was planning or partaking in any revolution, Chris. We were only having a serene discussion as adults. In the end, we're all pretty much innocent bystanders against the backdrop of societal events such as those that are playing out right now.

:noidea:

[Chris]

Aragorn, I actually fully agree with your above assessment.

One note, I am not abandoning the topic of collapse, only the race riots and associated protests now also spreading to the UK and some European countries. But if others want to comment on it or post related material, they are welcome to do so.

[Octopus Garden]

Aragorn, I am not going to belabour the point any more, because it is obvious to me that I am not going to change minds here. All I can offer is my own perspective. Trying to convince me that Communism isn't inherently evil is like trying to convince a Jew that there's nothing fundamentally wrong with National Socialism, that a few tweaks cannot fix. "They did it wrong" is the common excuse that people come up with in relation to this and I refuse to be a participant or even a bystander in yet another experiment to do Socalism/Communism right.

I'm not talking about social democracy here, which I actually support, but criminal behaviour, with no regard to laws and rules, just running around and stealing from people who are smarter and more successful than you. That anyone would countenance theft and mayhem, even wanton destruction of property on this scale is beyond belief. These people are criminals and they must be locked up.

National Socialism under Hitler, was fascist.

[Octopus Garden]

Chris, I hope you stay on this thread. I know how you feel about first person experience and how it molds your thinking. As an example, my brother in law, in Minneapolis became a tutor in the Somali community, where he happened to befriend a wannabe Egyptian mullah, at the same time. He ended up converting to Islam--the Somali kind.

Fast forward a couple of years, the Egyptian dude, along with his friends, tried to get brother in law to change his will, told him his own brother wasn't to be trusted, tried to hijack his cancer treatment when he was dying. Told him he wouldn't enter God's kingdom if he took pain killers! My husband had to deal with all of this when he went to visit.

He said it was a complete madhouse, with the Islamic crowd all over his mother's house, not letting family members quietly look after their brother. They had to be forcibly removed from the hospice he was admitted to a couple of days before he died. Their last words to him were, "you must find your way to the mosque." It was -40 degrees F, one of the coldest nights on record and blizzard conditions. BIL, was trying to dress himself to walk to the mosque, like 10 miles away, or more!

They wanted to get him alone so they could have him sign off on a will they created, was the logical conclusion.

He died the day after. My husband died of a massive stroke 5 months later, partly due to the stress of having to manage these freaking morons.

So, that's my story and why I couldn't be at all objective about Islam for some time after that. Did this crowd represent all of Islam. No. Just the worst aspects of some of it, but it is very hard for me not to generalize!

[Wind]

Yes, you are right, it is a revolution.

When the revolutionary committee is rounding up people for execution in your neck of the woods, I hope you'll remember what you said here.

It is easy to be a revolutionary thousands of miles away.

I'd gladly join nonviolent protests for the right cause although I've never done so.

I wouldn't be sad if some Wall Street people and other psychopaths ended up in the gallows.

Cause and effect, my friend. Cause and effect. These situations aren't born out of a vacuum.

[Emil El Zapato]

Wow, OG, now that is a tough story...it seems you've done a good job of working through it, though. Kudos to you, for sure...

[Emil El Zapato]

I knew this wouldn't show up on Fox News, so I thought I would help out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-ItsPBTFO0

[Emil El Zapato]

Incidentally, this is the setting for Trump's Juneteenth conciliatory speech. American Blacks celebrate Juneteenth to honor their freedom from slavery.

[Dreamtimer]

Gee, I wonder who picked the date and venue? Could it be Mr. Miller? So ironic in so many ways.

And what a finger in the eye of the black community. And salt in the wound. And adding insult to injury. And...

[Gio]

I find this thread topic enthralling, but it becomes (obviously) too American centric at times ... Since the OP's location is currently Eastern European, i would would like to hear more reported on what's occurring there and towards the East - Cos all is not so great there as well ... While admitting the Western media doesn't cover these vast regions at best ...

Also noting (from my perspective) the World in and of itself currently behaves in a vacuum ... And like it or not, what occurs everywhere (especially to the environment) eventually affects everyone on this planet ...

PS ~ And speaking of environmental collapse (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-charges-plant-director-in-arctic-diesel-fuel-spill/ar-BB15cLx2).

[Chris]

I find this thread topic enthralling, but it becomes (obviously) too American centric at times ... Since the OP's location is currently Eastern European, i would would like to hear more reported on what's occurring there and towards the East - Cos all is not so great there as well ... While admitting the Western media doesn't cover these vast regions at best ...

Also noting (from my perspective) the World in and of itself currently behaves in a vacuum ... And like it or not, what occurs everywhere (especially to the environment) eventually affects everyone on this planet ...

PS ~ And speaking of environmental collapse (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-charges-plant-director-in-arctic-diesel-fuel-spill/ar-BB15cLx2).

Hi Gio,

There is a distinction to be made between Eastern Europe and Central Europe, the old East-West division along cold war lines makes little sense currently.

It has been long remarked that Germany is a country in which many different cultures coexist, speaking the same language, whereas the countries that used to make up the old Habsburg Empire are one culture, speaking many different languages. That remains as true today as it was centuries ago.

So, Central Europe (From Germany to Switzerland in the West, Poland to Romania in the East) is actually fine, a fortress of peace and tranquility currently, compared to what is going on in the rest of the world, though of course we are all taking an economic hit right now. We really aren't affected by the Wokester Rebellion in the rest of the West and I expect that will stay so, mostly because we are pretty homogenous ethnically and culturally, plus 40 years of Communism was more than enough to inoculate us against further indoctrination and agitation. Once was plenty for us, thank you very much.

Eastern Europe is a different story, Ukraine has been a mess ever since it became independent and there is trouble brewing in Russia and Belarus. Of course the Environment in the Former SU has always been heavily abused, not least because there's so much of it. Russia is basically two Canadas placed next to each other, that's how huge and empty it is.

[Chris]

Chris, I hope you stay on this thread. I know how you feel about first person experience and how it molds your thinking. As an example, my brother in law, in Minneapolis became a tutor in the Somali community, where he happened to befriend a wannabe Egyptian mullah, at the same time. He ended up converting to Islam--the Somali kind.

Fast forward a couple of years, the Egyptian dude, along with his friends, tried to get brother in law to change his will, told him his own brother wasn't to be trusted, tried to hijack his cancer treatment when he was dying. Told him he wouldn't enter God's kingdom if he took pain killers! My husband had to deal with all of this when he went to visit.

He said it was a complete madhouse, with the Islamic crowd all over his mother's house, not letting family members quietly look after their brother. They had to be forcibly removed from the hospice he was admitted to a couple of days before he died. Their last words to him were, "you must find your way to the mosque." It was -40 degrees F, one of the coldest nights on record and blizzard conditions. BIL, was trying to dress himself to walk to the mosque, like 10 miles away, or more!

They wanted to get him alone so they could have him sign off on a will they created, was the logical conclusion.

He died the day after. My husband died of a massive stroke 5 months later, partly due to the stress of having to manage these freaking morons.

So, that's my story and why I couldn't be at all objective about Islam for some time after that. Did this crowd represent all of Islam. No. Just the worst aspects of some of it, but it is very hard for me not to generalize!

Hi OG,

Thanks for that encouragement.

Indeed, our own environments and experiences shape us to a large extent, which is what makes us unique.

As for me I literally live above what was once a communist torture chamber, so I am shaped by that very energy. I think the house might be haunted btw, because things just keep breaking down in the basement. That negative energy seems to linger and stick around, long after the torturers and murderers are gone.

As for your brush with Islamic culture, let's just say not all cultures are created equal. It is truly enlightening to read Ayaan Hirshi Ali on this issue, who is Somali herself, but managed to overcome all the constraints of her religion and the tribal culture holding her back to become a true beacon of freedom. If you haven't read her books, Infidel in particular is an absolute must-read.

[Wind]

As for me I literally live above what was once a communist torture chamber, so I am shaped by that very energy. I think the house might be haunted btw, because things just keep breaking down in the basement. That negative energy seems to linger and stick around, long after the torturers and murderers are gone.

You might want to rethink if you want to be influenced by such energies. You need more than a tinfoil hat from it affecting your mind.

[Chris]

You might want to rethink if you want to be influenced by such energies. You need more than a tinfoil hat from it affecting your mind.

Oh, don't worry, my apartment has all the right vibes, but the basement is super-creepy, I never go down there. You can still see the hooks from which people were hung between torture sessions.

[Chris]

The Maoist revolution continues apace

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself

The American Press Is Destroying Itself

A flurry of newsroom revolts has transformed the American press

Matt Taibbi

Sometimes it seems life can’t get any worse in this country. Already in terror of a pandemic, Americans have lately been bombarded with images of grotesque state-sponsored violence, from the murder of George Floyd to countless scenes of police clubbing and brutalizing protesters.

Our president, Donald Trump, is a clown who makes a great reality-show villain but is uniquely toolless as the leader of a superpower nation. Watching him try to think through two society-imperiling crises is like waiting for a gerbil to solve Fermat’s theorem. Calls to “dominate” marchers and ad-libbed speculations about Floyd’s “great day” looking down from heaven at Trump’s crisis management and new unemployment numbers (“only” 21 million out of work!) were pure gasoline at a tinderbox moment. The man seems determined to talk us into civil war.

But police violence, and Trump’s daily assaults on the presidential competence standard, are only part of the disaster. On the other side of the political aisle, among self-described liberals, we’re watching an intellectual revolution. It feels liberating to say after years of tiptoeing around the fact, but the American left has lost its mind. It’s become a cowardly mob of upper-class social media addicts, Twitter Robespierres who move from discipline to discipline torching reputations and jobs with breathtaking casualness.

The leaders of this new movement are replacing traditional liberal beliefs about tolerance, free inquiry, and even racial harmony with ideas so toxic and unattractive that they eschew debate, moving straight to shaming, threats, and intimidation. They are counting on the guilt-ridden, self-flagellating nature of traditional American progressives, who will not stand up for themselves, and will walk to the Razor voluntarily.

They’ve conned organization after organization into empowering panels to search out thoughtcrime, and it’s established now that anything can be an offense, from a UCLA professor placed under investigation for reading Martin Luther King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” out loud to a data scientist fired* from a research firm for — get this — retweeting an academic study suggesting nonviolent protests may be more politically effective than violent ones!

Now, this madness is coming for journalism. Beginning on Friday, June 5th, a series of controversies rocked the media. By my count, at least eight news organizations dealt with internal uprisings (it was likely more). Most involved groups of reporters and staffers demanding the firing or reprimand of colleagues who’d made politically “problematic” editorial or social media decisions.

The New York Times, the Intercept, Vox, the Philadelphia Inquirier, Variety, and others saw challenges to management.

Probably the most disturbing story involved Intercept writer Lee Fang, one of a fast-shrinking number of young reporters actually skilled in investigative journalism. Fang’s work in the area of campaign finance especially has led to concrete impact, including a record fine to a conservative Super PAC: few young reporters have done more to combat corruption.

Yet Fang found himself denounced online as a racist, then hauled before H.R. His crime? During protests, he tweeted this interview with an African-American man named Maximum Fr, who described having two cousins murdered in the East Oakland neighborhood where he grew up. Saying his aunt is still not over those killings, Max asked:

I always question, why does a Black life matter only when a white man takes it?... Like, if a white man takes my life tonight, it’s going to be national news, but if a Black man takes my life, it might not even be spoken of… It’s stuff just like that that I just want in the mix.

Shortly after, a co-worker of Fang’s, Akela Lacy, wrote, “Tired of being made to deal continually with my co-worker @lhfang continuing to push black on black crime narratives after being repeatedly asked not to. This isn’t about me and him, it’s about institutional racism and using free speech to couch anti-blackness. I am so fucking tired.” She followed with, “Stop being racist Lee.”

The tweet received tens of thousands of likes and responses along the lines of, “Lee Fang has been like this for years, but the current moment only makes his anti-Blackness more glaring,” and “Lee Fang spouting racist bullshit it must be a day ending in day.” A significant number of Fang’s co-workers, nearly all white, as well as reporters from other major news organizations like the New York Times and MSNBC and political activists (one former Elizabeth Warren staffer tweeted, “Get him!”), issued likes and messages of support for the notion that Fang was a racist. Though he had support within the organization, no one among his co-workers was willing to say anything in his defense publicly.

Like many reporters, Fang has always viewed it as part of his job to ask questions in all directions. He’s written critically of political figures on the center-left, the left, and “obviously on the right,” and his reporting has inspired serious threats in the past. None of those past experiences were as terrifying as this blitz by would-be colleagues, which he described as “jarring,” “deeply isolating,” and “unique in my professional experience.”

To save his career, Fang had to craft a public apology for “insensitivity to the lived experience of others.” According to one friend of his, it’s been communicated to Fang that his continued employment at The Intercept is contingent upon avoiding comments that may upset colleagues. Lacy to her credit publicly thanked Fang for his statement and expressed willingness to have a conversation; unfortunately, the throng of Intercept co-workers who piled on her initial accusation did not join her in this.

I first met Lee Fang in 2014 and have never known him to be anything but kind, gracious, and easygoing. He also appears earnestly committed to making the world a better place through his work. It’s stunning that so many colleagues are comfortable using a word as extreme and villainous as racist to describe him.

Though he describes his upbringing as “solidly middle-class,” Fang grew up in up in a diverse community in Prince George's County, Maryland, and attended public schools where he was frequently among the few non-African Americans in his class. As a teenager, he was witness to the murder of a young man outside his home by police who were never prosecuted, and also volunteered at a shelter for trafficked women, two of whom were murdered. If there’s an edge to Fang at all, it seems geared toward people in our business who grew up in affluent circumstances and might intellectualize topics that have personal meaning for him.

In the tweets that got him in trouble with Lacy and other co-workers, he questioned the logic of protesters attacking immigrant-owned businesses “with no connection to police brutality at all.” He also offered his opinion on Martin Luther King’s attitude toward violent protest (Fang’s take was that King did not support it; Lacy responded, “you know they killed him too right”). These are issues around which there is still considerable disagreement among self-described liberals, even among self-described leftists. Fang also commented, presciently as it turns out, that many reporters were “terrified of openly challenging the lefty conventional wisdom around riots.”

Lacy says she never intended for Fang to be “fired, ‘canceled,’ or deplatformed,” but appeared irritated by questions on the subject, which she says suggest, “there is more concern about naming racism than letting it persist.”

Max himself was stunned to find out that his comments on all this had created a Twitter firestorm. “I couldn’t believe they were coming for the man’s job over something I said,” he recounts. “It was not Lee’s opinion. It was my opinion.”

By phone, Max spoke of a responsibility he feels Black people have to speak out against all forms of violence, “precisely because we experience it the most.” He described being affected by the Floyd story, but also by the story of retired African-American police captain David Dorn, shot to death in recent protests in St. Louis. He also mentioned Tony Timpa, a white man whose 2016 asphyxiation by police was only uncovered last year. In body-camera footage, police are heard joking after Timpa passed out and stopped moving, “I don’t want to go to school! Five more minutes, Mom!”

“If it happens to anyone, it has to be called out,” Max says.

Max described discussions in which it was argued to him that bringing up these other incidents now is not helpful to the causes being articulated at the protests. He understands that point of view. He just disagrees.

“They say, there has to be the right time and a place to talk about that,” he says. “But my point is, when? I want to speak out now.” He pauses. “We’ve taken the narrative, and instead of being inclusive with it, we’ve become exclusive with it. Why?”

There were other incidents. The editors of Bon Apetit and Refinery29 both resigned amid accusations of toxic workplace culture. The editor of Variety, Claudia Eller, was placed on leave after calling a South Asian freelance writer “bitter” in a Twitter exchange about minority hiring at her company. The self-abasing apology (“I have tried to diversify our newsroom over the past seven years, but I HAVE NOT DONE ENOUGH”) was insufficient. Meanwhile, the Philadelphia Inquirer’s editor, Stan Wischowski, was forced out after approving a headline, “Buildings matter, too.”

In the most discussed incident, Times editorial page editor James Bennet was ousted for green-lighting an anti-protest editorial by Arkansas Republican Senator Tom Cotton entitled, “Send in the troops.”

I’m no fan of Cotton, but as was the case with Michael Moore’s documentary and many other controversial speech episodes, it’s not clear that many of the people angriest about the piece in question even read it. In classic Times fashion, the paper has already scrubbed a mistake they made misreporting what their own editorial said, in an article about Bennet’s ouster. Here’s how the piece by Marc Tracy read originally (emphasis mine):

James Bennet, the editorial page editor of The New York Times, has resigned after a controversy over an Op-Ed by a senator calling for military force against protesters in American cities.

Here’s how the piece reads now:

James Bennet resigned on Sunday from his job as the editorial page editor of The New York Times, days after the newspaper’s opinion section, which he oversaw, published a much-criticized Op-Ed by a United States senator calling for a military response to civic unrest in American cities.

Cotton did not call for “military force against protesters in American cities.” He spoke of a “show of force,” to rectify a situation a significant portion of the country saw as spiraling out of control. It’s an important distinction. Cotton was presenting one side of the most important question on the most important issue of a critically important day in American history.

As Cotton points out in the piece, he was advancing a view arguably held by a majority of the country. A Morning Consult poll showed 58% of Americans either strongly or somewhat supported the idea of “calling in the U.S. military to supplement city police forces.” That survey included 40% of self-described “liberals” and 37% of African-Americans. To declare a point of view held by that many people not only not worthy of discussion, but so toxic that publication of it without even necessarily agreeing requires dismissal, is a dramatic reversal for a newspaper that long cast itself as the national paper of record.

Incidentally, that same poll cited by Cotton showed that 73% of Americans described protecting property as “very important,” while an additional 16% considered it “somewhat important.” This means the Philadelphia Inquirer editor was fired for running a headline – “Buildings matter, too” – that the poll said expressed a view held by 89% of the population, including 64% of African-Americans.

(Would I have run the Inquirer headline? No. In the context of the moment, the use of the word “matter” especially sounds like the paper is equating “Black lives” and “buildings,” an odious and indefensible comparison. But why not just make this case in a rebuttal editorial? Make it a teaching moment? How can any editor operate knowing that airing opinions shared by a majority of readers might cost his or her job?)

The main thing accomplished by removing those types of editorials from newspapers — apart from scaring the hell out of editors — is to shield readers from knowledge of what a major segment of American society is thinking.

It also guarantees that opinion writers and editors alike will shape views to avoid upsetting colleagues, which means that instead of hearing what our differences are and how we might address those issues, newspaper readers will instead be presented with page after page of people professing to agree with one another. That’s not agitation, that’s misinformation.

The instinct to shield audiences from views or facts deemed politically uncomfortable has been in evidence since Trump became a national phenomenon. We saw it when reporters told audiences Hillary Clinton’s small crowds were a “wholly intentional” campaign decision. I listened to colleagues that summer of 2016 talk about ignoring poll results, or anecdotes about Hillary’s troubled campaign, on the grounds that doing otherwise might “help Trump” (or, worse, be perceived that way).

Even if you embrace a wholly politically utilitarian vision of the news media – I don’t, but let’s say – non-reporting of that “enthusiasm” story, or ignoring adverse poll results, didn’t help Hillary’s campaign. I’d argue it more likely accomplished the opposite, contributing to voter apathy by conveying the false impression that her victory was secure.

After the 2016 election, we began to see staff uprisings. In one case, publishers at the Nation faced a revolt – from the Editor on down – after articles by Aaron Mate and Patrick Lawrence questioning the evidentiary basis for Russiagate claims was run. Subsequent events, including the recent declassification of congressional testimony, revealed that Mate especially was right to point out that officials had no evidence for a Trump-Russia collusion case. It’s precisely because such unpopular views often turn out to be valid that we stress publishing and debating them in the press.

In a related incident, the New Yorker ran an article about Glenn Greenwald’s Russiagate skepticism that quoted that same Nation editor, Joan Walsh, who had edited Greenwald at Salon. She suggested to the New Yorker that Greenwald’s reservations were rooted in “disdain” for the Democratic Party, in part because of its closeness to Wall Street, but also because of the “ascendance of women and people of color.” The message was clear: even if you win a Pulitzer Prize, you can be accused of racism for deviating from approved narratives, even on questions that have nothing to do with race (the New Yorker piece also implied Greenwald’s intransigence on Russia was pathological and grounded in trauma from childhood).

In the case of Cotton, Times staffers protested on the grounds that “Running this puts Black @NYTimes staff in danger.” Bennet’s editorial decision was not merely ill-considered, but literally life-threatening (note pundits in the space of a few weeks have told us that protesting during lockdowns and not protesting during lockdowns are both literally lethal). The Times first attempted to rectify the situation by apologizing, adding a long Editor’s note to Cotton’s piece that read, as so many recent “apologies” have, like a note written by a hostage.

Editors begged forgiveness for not being more involved, for not thinking to urge Cotton to sound less like Cotton (“Editors should have offered suggestions”), and for allowing rhetoric that was “needlessly harsh and falls short of the thoughtful approach that advances useful debate.” That last line is sadly funny, in the context of an episode in which reporters were seeking to pre-empt a debate rather than have one at all; of course, no one got the joke, since a primary characteristic of the current political climate is a total absence of a sense of humor in any direction.

As many guessed, the “apology” was not enough, and Bennet was whacked a day later in a terse announcement.

His replacement, Kathleen Kingsbury, issued a staff directive essentially telling employees they now had a veto over anything that made them uncomfortable: “Anyone who sees any piece of Opinion journalism, headlines, social posts, photos—you name it—that gives you the slightest pause, please call or text me immediately.”

All these episodes sent a signal to everyone in a business already shedding jobs at an extraordinary rate that failure to toe certain editorial lines can and will result in the loss of your job. Perhaps additionally, you could face a public shaming campaign in which you will be denounced as a racist and rendered unemployable.

These tensions led to amazing contradictions in coverage. For all the extraordinary/inexplicable scenes of police viciousness in recent weeks — and there was a ton of it, ranging from police slashing tires in Minneapolis, to Buffalo officers knocking over an elderly man, to Philadelphia police attacking protesters — there were also 12 deaths in the first nine days of protests, only one at the hands of a police officer (involving a man who may or may not have been aiming a gun at police).

Looting in some communities has been so bad that people have been left without banks to cash checks, or pharmacies to fill prescriptions; business owners have been wiped out (“My life is gone,” commented one Philly store owner); a car dealership in San Leandro, California saw 74 cars stolen in a single night. It isn’t the whole story, but it’s demonstrably true that violence, arson, and rioting are occurring.

However, because it is politically untenable to discuss this in ways that do not suggest support, reporters have been twisting themselves into knots. We are seeing headlines previously imaginable only in The Onion, e.g., “27 police officers injured during largely peaceful anti-racism protests in London.”

Even people who try to keep up with protest goals find themselves denounced the moment they fail to submit to some new tenet of ever-evolving doctrine, via a surprisingly consistent stream of retorts: fuck you, shut up, send money, do better, check yourself, I’m tired and racist.

Minneapolis mayor Jacob Frey, who argued for police reform and attempted to show solidarity with protesters in his city, was shouted down after he refused to commit to defunding the police. Protesters shouted “Get the fuck out!” at him, then chanted “Shame!” and threw refuse, Game of Thrones-style, as he skulked out of the gathering. Frey’s “shame” was refusing to endorse a position polls show 65% of Americans oppose, including 62% of Democrats, with just 15% of all people, and only 33% of African-Americans, in support.

Each passing day sees more scenes that recall something closer to cult religion than politics. White protesters in Floyd’s Houston hometown kneeling and praying to black residents for “forgiveness… for years and years of racism” are one thing, but what are we to make of white police in Cary, North Carolina, kneeling and washing the feet of Black pastors? What about Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer kneeling while dressed in “African kente cloth scarves”?

There is symbolism here that goes beyond frustration with police or even with racism: these are orgiastic, quasi-religious, and most of all, deeply weird scenes, and the press is too paralyzed to wonder at it. In a business where the first job requirement was once the willingness to ask tough questions, we’ve become afraid to ask obvious ones.

On CNN, Minneapolis City Council President Lisa Bender was asked a hypothetical question about a future without police: “What if in the middle of the night, my home is broken into? Who do I call?” When Bender, who is white, answered, “I know that comes from a place of privilege,” questions popped to mind. Does privilege mean one should let someone break into one’s home, or that one shouldn’t ask that hypothetical question? (I was genuinely confused). In any other situation, a media person pounces on a provocative response to dig out its meaning, but an increasingly long list of words and topics are deemed too dangerous to discuss.

The media in the last four years has devolved into a succession of moral manias. We are told the Most Important Thing Ever is happening for days or weeks at a time, until subjects are abruptly dropped and forgotten, but the tone of warlike emergency remains: from James Comey’s firing, to the deification of Robert Mueller, to the Brett Kavanaugh nomination, to the democracy-imperiling threat to intelligence “whistleblowers,” all those interminable months of Ukrainegate hearings (while Covid-19 advanced), to fury at the death wish of lockdown violators, to the sudden reversal on that same issue, etc.

It’s been learned in these episodes we may freely misreport reality, so long as the political goal is righteous. It was okay to publish the now-discredited Steele dossier, because Trump is scum. MSNBC could put Michael Avenatti on live TV to air a gang rape allegation without vetting, because who cared about Brett Kavanaugh – except press airing of that wild story ended up being a crucial factor in convincing key swing voter Maine Senator Susan Collins the anti-Kavanaugh campaign was a political hit job (the allegation illustrated, “why the presumption of innocence is so important,” she said). Reporters who were anxious to prevent Kavanaugh’s appointment, in other words, ended up helping it happen through overzealousness.

There were no press calls for self-audits after those episodes, just as there won’t be a few weeks from now if Covid-19 cases spike, or a few months from now if Donald Trump wins re-election successfully painting the Democrats as supporters of violent protest who want to abolish police. No: press activism is limited to denouncing and shaming colleagues for insufficient fealty to the cheap knockoff of bullying campus Marxism that passes for leftist thought these days.

The traditional view of the press was never based on some contrived, mathematical notion of “balance,” i.e. five paragraphs of Republicans for every five paragraphs of Democrats. The ideal instead was that we showed you everything we could see, good and bad, ugly and not, trusting that a better-informed public would make better decisions. This vision of media stressed accuracy, truth, and trust in the reader’s judgment as the routes to positive social change.

For all our infamous failings, journalists once had some toughness to them. We were supposed to be willing to go to jail for sources we might not even like, and fly off to war zones or disaster areas without question when editors asked. It was also once considered a virtue to flout the disapproval of colleagues to fight for stories we believed in (Watergate, for instance).

Today no one with a salary will stand up for colleagues like Lee Fang. Our brave truth-tellers make great shows of shaking fists at our parody president, but not one of them will talk honestly about the fear running through their own newsrooms. People depend on us to tell them what we see, not what we think. What good are we if we’re afraid to do it?

[Emil El Zapato]

"Watching him try to think through two society-imperiling crises is like waiting for a gerbil to solve Fermat’s theorem."

That's a great line...It was truly one of the transcendant mathematical achievements:

After 358 years of effort by mathematicians, the first successful proof was released in 1994 by Andrew Wiles, and formally published in 1995; it was described as a "stunning advance" in the citation for Wiles's Abel Prize award in 2016.

= wiki =

"The New York Times, the Intercept, Vox, the Philadelphia Inquirier, Variety, and others saw challenges to management."

hunh?!

What is that article...It reads like a social Sting... David Maurer in his 1940 book The Big Con: The Story of the Confidence Man.

[Emil El Zapato]

This is a little of Taibbi's background: It encompasses his 'psychological' profile...It is about his father. The below is one of the more sordid and fake stories perpetrated by a black female. It was sensational and extremely unlikely to have been so, if the victim had been white. It is the twisted nature of things. It is a very long story, Chris, but you might find some interesting hooks into American psychology by pursuing it.

Book Reviews : Unholy Alliances: Working the Tawana Brawley Story. By Mike Taibbi and Anna Sims-Phillips. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1989.

It demonstrates that the socio-psychological provenance is just not clean.

[Aragorn]

One thing is clear, though. There is an incredible degree of neuroticism playing out, both on the right and on the left. :facepalm:

For instance ─ and this is something that struck me when I read about it a few days ago ─ J.K. Rowling is now under attack from the left because she said that she shared the opinion of another notable woman ─ a journalist, I believe ─ on the fact that someone's gender is a biological matter. And for whatever reason, "Harry Potter" lead actor Daniel Radcliffe immediately chose to openly chastise J.K. Rowling over that.

It has become a real shit storm in the media in the meantime, and within two days after J.K. Rowling uttered those words ─ she didn't even posit it as her opinion, but instead they were somebody else's words, to which J.K. Rowling said that she agreed with them ─ the issue was added to her political views on her Wikipedia page.

Why? Because of neurotic social justice warriors who feel it's a world-shocking event that someone doesn't share their opinion that biological gender (supposedly) doesn't exist. It is in fact such an important issue that it had to be added to her Wikipedia page right away. And so now J.K. Rowling is already officially being labeled in the media as trans-phobic, even though she has not made any trans-phobic comments at all. And this shit storm may have a significant (and in my humble opinion completely undeserved) impact on her reputation, and on her further success as an author.

I consider myself moderately progressive, but I really dislike these so-called social justice warriors and their thought control. In my book, they are no better than those idiots from the alt-right. If you have issues with self-acceptance, then find yourself a good psychotherapist, but don't insist on policing the thoughts of other people, least of all a reputed and respected author whose words didn't even come anywhere close to trans-phobia, homophobia or whatever.

It really is that same old shit as we get with the adherents of the alt-right, i.e. the failure to recognize oneself for who and what one is, and the projection thereof onto another (and innocent) person ─ the tale of the splinter and the beam.

Could we please all return to sanity? :facepalm:

[Dreamtimer]

I also dislike the intolerance being shown. It's very difficult to fight intolerance with intolerance. It just doesn't work.

Of all the liberals I know, none attack me for my chosen words. Maybe it's an age thing. I certainly don't walk on eggshells. I have no problem justifying or standing up for what I say.

I also don't have a job on the line or worries about being sent to HR.

I used to do a lot of day care. I wonder what I might do that would get me in trouble now, but not then. I recall one mom telling me they weren't supposed to correct their child's spelling. She didn't really know why, just that they weren't supposed to do it.

That was clearly idiotic to me. I also used to be a teacher. I probably would go nuts now with all the ridiculousness.

[Emil El Zapato]

As painful as it is, I agree...Perhaps social media and I've stated this opinion before, has given people that are not really capable of handling the needed social responsibility to move into positions that outweigh their abilities and have given them a much too loud voice.

It is a mission that they are on, but it is beyond them to handle it properly.

I also confess, that I would be much more tolerant of those that want to correct wrongs rather than perpetuate them.

[Chris]

One thing is clear, though. There is an incredible degree of neuroticism playing out, both on the right and on the left. :facepalm:

For instance ─ and this is something that struck me when I read about it a few days ago ─ J.K. Rowling is now under attack from the left because she said that she shared the opinion of another notable woman ─ a journalist, I believe ─ on the fact that someone's gender is a biological matter. And for whatever reason, "Harry Potter" lead actor Daniel Radcliffe immediately chose to openly chastise J.K. Rowling over that.

It has become a real shit storm in the media in the meantime, and within two days after J.K. Rowling uttered those words ─ she didn't even posit it as her opinion, but instead they were somebody else's words, to which J.K. Rowling said that she agreed with them ─ the issue was added to her political views on her Wikipedia page.

Why? Because of neurotic social justice warriors who feel it's a world-shocking event that someone doesn't share their opinion that biological gender (supposedly) doesn't exist. It is in fact such an important issue that it had to be added to her Wikipedia page right away. And so now J.K. Rowling is already officially being labeled in the media as trans-phobic, even though she has not made any trans-phobic comments at all. And this shit storm may have a significant (and in my humble opinion completely undeserved) impact on her reputation, and on her further success as an author.

I consider myself moderately progressive, but I really dislike these so-called social justice warriors and their thought control. In my book, they are no better than those idiots from the alt-right. If you have issues with self-acceptance, then find yourself a good psychotherapist, but don't insist on policing the thoughts of other people, least of all a reputed and respected author whose words didn't even come anywhere close to trans-phobia, homophobia or whatever.

It really is that same old shit as we get with the adherents of the alt-right, i.e. the failure to recognize oneself for who and what one is, and the projection thereof onto another (and innocent) person ─ the tale of the splinter and the beam.

Could we please all return to sanity? :facepalm:

I'm afraid it isn't just neuroticism, but outright Maoism.

This is exactly how the Maoists took over the university campuses in China, then the newspapers and the rest is history.

The denouncements, the public shamings, the grovelling apologies that sound like hostage letters, the labelling of everyone who isn't sufficiently on board with the "progressive" political programme, all these should be readily recognisable to all those who have studied the history of communist takeovers all over the world. It is unbelievable to me that most people don't recognise what we're dealing with and where it's coming from.

I personally think that a civil war, along the same lines as the red-white one in Bolshevik Russia or the Maoist-Nationalist one in China is now a very likely outcome of all this. If I were Trump, I would not allow this to take place and would arrest all the Communist infiltrators and agitators, but he's unfortunately too weak and stupid to do the right thing for his country. All he cares about are his own poll numbers.

[Emil El Zapato]

The above posts got me thinking about my blue collar days:

I had a boss that I actually liked (He was a very good golfer) that laughingly gave me some advice once because I was always getting into trouble (in my partying days).

He said, "You need to quit writing checks that your ass can't cash"...that was a bit sobering... :) Incidentally, he was later sent to alcohol rehab...he was alcoholic.

Man, it was a difficult environment that I worked in, most of the guys, emphasis on guys, drank more booze on the job than they did in a bar...

Here's a little self-aggrandizement for you...They had a plant that had been open for maybe 20 years or so doing production of making, packaging, and shipping truckloads of product. At the time, I was working in the shipping department loading 'racks' for loading onto 18-wheelers.

There was controversy whether or not I was the 'best ever'. Some claimed so, others said Top 5 (managers). I figure realistically, that I was in the top 3 somewhere. It was like physical poetry for me. Anyway, I finally escaped the job, my 10 year long red-haired Scotch-Irish girlfriend, and my past... :)


Addendum: If anyone wonders what would compel a human to post this kind of overt pap, it is what I do when in defense mode... :) no worries, though, it won't last.

pap
noun
soft food for infants, as bread soaked in water or milk.
an idea, talk, book, or the like, lacking substance or real value.

[Emil El Zapato]

United States? Chris, this is not going to happen, what will happen is that the U.S. will move one step closer to its promise.

[Wind]

If I were Trump, I would not allow this to take place and would arrest all the Communist infiltrators and agitators, but he's unfortunately too weak and stupid to do the right thing for his country. All he cares about are his own poll numbers.

That's very McCarthian of you. I don't know if you follow Jordan Peterson, I follow him quite a lot, but I have always cringed at his rants about the post-modern neo marxists or whatever name he has for these social justice warriors. Come on, they're idiotic ideologues mostly... But it's still another thing from a commie. That communist card is such right wing-rhetoric and it's sounding like downright paranoia at times. I consider myself a leftie and a liberal as probably any empathic non-authorian human being would, but I never ever would support those extreme left loonies. Then again, I have strong disdain for alt righters also. We have to be extremely wary of the extreme sides as their viewpoints at times may seem inviting. There's a huge clash between ideologies in the western society today, but it's mostly on socio-cultural level.

I'll use this quote again for clarity's sake.


Considering current alt-right glee at Elon Musk (I’m not presuming his meaning) my view is: following the Matrix analogy, taking the red pill cannot mean going Right. Historically, the (religious) right *was* the Matrix (the establishment). In the 60s, to be Red-Pilled was to be left wing.

Today, it should only mean to be balanced.

‪Why I say this is becoming increasingly self-evident: to see through the establishment is to be red-pilled. ‬

‪Today’s financial establishment is Right-wing. ‬

‪Today’s cultural establishment is Left-Wing. ‬

‪See through both of them, or just go home & stop playing games. ‬

‪Ancient wisdom, whether of the yin & yang, or Zoroastrian notions of balancing good & evil, understood this.

In modern times we need to balance left & right, head & heart, brain & brawn, love & hate, opportunity & equality. It’s the hardest thing to do, but a sure way to succeed. ‬

~ Maajid Nawaz

[Chris]

That's very McCarthian of you. I don't know if you follow Jordan Peterson, I follow him quite a lot, but I have always cringed at his rants about the post-modern neo marxists or whatever name he has for these social justice warriors. Come on, they're idiotic ideologues mostly... But it's still another thing from a commie. That communist card is such right wing-rhetoric and it's sounding like downright paranoia at times. I consider myself a leftie and a liberal as probably any empathic non-authorian human being would, but I never ever would support those extreme left loonies. Then again, I have strong disdain for alt righters also. We have to be extremely wary of the extreme sides as their viewpoints at times may seem inviting. There's a huge clash between ideologies in the western society today, but it's mostly on socio-cultural level.

I'll use this quote again for clarity's sake.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSpCkCIZU8A&feature=emb_err_woyt

Well, perhaps you are right in that the current far-left paradigm isn't actually communist, in that they don't want to abolish private property altogether, just redistribute it, mostly from rich White and Asian folks to poor Black and Brown ones, on a global level.

Still, the tactics used are very much reminiscent of Bolshevism and Maoism and any reasonably informed person can spot the unmistakable parallels.

BTW, the various Socialist experiments that flourished and then flamed out so spectacularly over the last century very much had Wealth and Power redistribution at the forefront of their ideologies, whether, they targeted rich Jews, Kulaks and Boers (especially White Landowners), Armenians or the Chinese, usually it was the productive and merchant class that was in their crosshairs and it was the working and peasant classes that were supposedly benefiting from it, but in the end they just all ended up impoverishing themselves collectively.

In recent times, the case of grand-scale land theft from Zimbabwean and South African white farmers, fuelled by Marxist-Leninist ideology and the resulting collapse in food production and economic output in general, provides an instructive lesson on why these movements always end badly, even if the sentiment behind them, the burning injustice of social and historic inequality can be understood.

Basically, my point is that one can sympathise with the grievances of the downtrodden and impoverished, yet the supposed remedy from the far-Left is just going to end up hurting them even more.

[Emil El Zapato]

Chris, that is the dream that no one dare dream... :)

[Chris]

I don't usually post long videos of talks and lectures here, but this one is a must-watch. It reflects exactly my thinking on global societal collapse and the trials and tribulations period we have entered into. If you care at all about your salvation and the ultimate destination of your soul, I would urge you to watch it and carefully ponder its implications. Time is running out to wake up, get in tune with your Divine Self and accept the fate of the world with equanimity and peace.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELA-ApRrBfQ

[Wind]

I've watched this guy before. Not sure what to make of him, but I think he gives some good advices.

[Octopus Garden]

Chris,

You will never and I mean NEVER have to worry about a Communist takeover from within. And most certainly not from outside of the country. The Communism you are referring to, dissolves the right to private property. A large percentage of U.S citizens own their own homes. The government makes it easy to do this by various means.

For starters they allow tax payers to write off interest homeowners pay on mortgages. This is a huge giveaway and part of the long term Communism prevention programme. What the U.S. never designed or implemented was a Fascist prevention program...and that's what you have now... a perfect blend of corporate and state power.

[Aragorn]

I'm afraid it isn't just neuroticism, but outright Maoism.

This is exactly how the Maoists took over the university campuses in China, then the newspapers and the rest is history.

The denouncements, the public shamings, the grovelling apologies that sound like hostage letters, the labelling of everyone who isn't sufficiently on board with the "progressive" political programme, all these should be readily recognisable to all those who have studied the history of communist takeovers all over the world. It is unbelievable to me that most people don't recognise what we're dealing with and where it's coming from.

Thought control and indoctrination aren't exclusive to the communists ─ far from it. The USA, as a de facto fascist nation, has been doing that very same thing since at least the start of the Cold War, and both fascist Italy and Nazi Germany were also already doing it from long before the beginning of World War II.

I've got a couple of names for you too: Rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones. And they're by far not the only ones. The American education system and the American media are rife with this stuff.





That's very McCarthian of you. I don't know if you follow Jordan Peterson, I follow him quite a lot, but I have always cringed at his rants about the post-modern neo marxists or whatever name he has for these social justice warriors. Come on, they're idiotic ideologues mostly... But it's still another thing from a commie. That communist card is such right wing-rhetoric and it's sounding like downright paranoia at times. I consider myself a leftie and a liberal as probably any empathic non-authorian human being would, but I never ever would support those extreme left loonies. Then again, I have strong disdain for alt righters also. We have to be extremely wary of the extreme sides as their viewpoints at times may seem inviting. There's a huge clash between ideologies in the western society today, but it's mostly on socio-cultural level.

Amen to that, Brother! :h5:

[Chris]

This analysis from an Israeli newspaper about Viktor Orbán's enduring appeal and popularity in Hungary is perhaps the best and most balanced I've read from a foreign news source in a while.

It is only of local interest, but if you were wondering why our own particular Trump is so entrenched in power and appears impossible to remove, the below article will provide most of the answers.

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-the-key-to-hungary-s-infatuation-with-hate-mongering-authoritarian-orban-1.8919482

The Key to Hungary's Infatuation With Hate-mongering, Soros-baiting Authoritarian Viktor Orban

Why is Hungary one of the most inward-looking societies in Europe, fertile ground for Orban's illiberal democracy and crusades against migrants, George Soros and the LGBTQ community? It's all about language

Yehuda Lukacs

BUDAPEST - Less than a month ago, the Hungarian parliament passed an anti-transgender bill introduced by the government of Prime Minister Viktor Orban, ostensibly as part of COVID-19 emergency legislation. The new law, passed by 134 to 56, stipulates that gender can only be defined based on one’s biological sex at birth. Under this new law, trans people can no longer change their gender or names on official documents.

The new law is in line with previous government policies, such as the October 2018 government decree banning gender studies at all Hungarian universities: "The government’s standpoint is that people are born either male or female, and we do not consider it acceptable for us to talk about socially constructed genders rather than biological sexes," an official spokesman said. The speaker of the Hungarian parliament has compared gay adoption to "moral pedophilia."

These measures come as no surprise. To a large extent, they reflect the plurality of public opinion on matters related to gender and the LGBTQ community. According to a 2019 survey conducted by Eurobarometer, most Hungarians hold negative views toward the LGBTQ community. This animosity has grown in the past several years as a result of persistent campaigning by Fidesz, the governing party.

Only 46 percent of Hungarians support equal rights for the LGBTQ community, whereas 96 percent of Swedes and 59 percent of Czechs hold that view. The overall support for equal rights across Europe is 76 percent.

Homophobic legislation is clearly only one example of the Hungarian intolerance of otherness.

Based on a Spring 2016 survey conducted by Pew Research Center, one of the most respectable U.S. public opinion research organizations, Hungarians fare very poorly in comparison with other Europeans in their attitudes toward Muslims, Roma and Jews.

- 72 percent of Hungarians, compared to 43 percent of all Europeans, hold negative views of Muslims.

- 64 percent of Hungarians, compared to 48 percent of all Europeans, hold negative views of Roma.

- 32 percent of Hungarians, compared to 16 percent of all Europeans, hold negative views of Jews.

Anti-Muslim sentiment has been nurtured by the massive anti-migrant campaign pursued by the Orban government. The Roma population of about 800,000 people, constitutes approximately 8 percent of Hungary’s population. They are the largest minority in the country and clearly suffer from multiple discriminations in nearly every walk of life.

A woman touches a wall bearing names of victims during the Holocaust memorial day at Budapest's Holocaust Memorial Centre April 15, 2011. More than half a million Hungarian Jews were killed during World War Two

The history of antisemitism in Hungary is long and complex More than 600,000 Hungarian Jews perished during the Holocaust. Religion, socio-economic envy, and bitterness toward the many Jews who played an active role in the Communist take-over of the country have fueled anti-Jewish sentiment. Today there are approximately 100,000 Jews in Hungary, living mostly in Budapest. As the Pew survey indicates, a substantial portion of the Hungarian population explicitly identifies with antisemitism.

Israel and Hungary, however, have sustained close ties over the years. This was true even after 1967, when all Eastern bloc countries severed diplomatic relations with the Jewish state. The cozy relationship with Israel is used by Budapest as a fig leaf to fend off critics who claim that antisemitism is alive and well in Hungary.

Prime Minister Orban and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu have developed a close rapport, as has Fidesz with Netanyahu’s Likud party. Both parties uphold super-nationalist policies, share a disdain towards migrants and are suspicious of the European Union’s liberal, pro-human rights policies.

Hungary provides Israel with a diplomatic shield against anti-Israeli resolutions by the European Union which often require a consensus by all members. In turn, Netanyahu opened doors for Orban in Washington, D.C. when he visited President Trump in May 2019.

Explanations abound as to the origins of Hungarian nationalism, chauvinism, and xenophobia. History certainly plays a significant role in shaping Hungarian attitudes. However, the Hungarian language is also one of the principal roots of Magyar nationalism and self-declared exceptionalism.

Hungarian is part of the Finno-Ugric language tree and shares some grammatical structures with Finnish and Estonian. A Finn or an Estonian, however, cannot understand Hungarian, and vice versa. This means that Hungary constitutes a distinct linguistic island in the heart of Europe with significant cultural and political implications.

Since no other country in the world speaks its language, apprehension of otherness is structurally embedded in each individual’s worldview and informs society as a whole, setting Hungarians apart from their European neighbors.

Given this linguistic peculiarity, the next question would be about how many Hungarians have acquired a second language as a bridge to the outside world.

According to a 2016 Eurostat survey, only 42.4 percent of Hungarians between 25 and 64 speak another language. In Poland, by comparison, 67 percent of the population has acquired at least one additional language.

Lack of a second language not only holds cultural implications but, more importantly, political ones as well.

Given the Orban government’s tight control of the media, the majority of the population has to rely exclusively on official news and propaganda provided by pro-regime media outlets without the ability to verify its accuracy or to access alternative information disseminated in other languages.

Consider this: The Hungarian independent investigative outlet Atlatszo reported that in the last eight years, the government has spent 216 million euros on spreading propaganda and fear-mongering campaigns. Two noteworthy examples are the ongoing anti-migration campaign as well as the crusade against Hungarian-born financier George Soros whom Orban views as his arch nemesis.

The unique and outlier Hungarian language, the lack of a second language by most Hungarians, and the historical legacies of conquest and servitude of Hungary by Ottomans, Austrians and the Soviet Union have all left their deep scars on the Hungarian psyche and society, fueling Hungary’s unfortunate positioning as one of the most inward-looking societies in Europe.

It must be added that Hungary is experiencing a serious negative migration by the mostly young people who are likely to speak a second language. Portfolio.hu estimated that that approximately 600,000 of them emigrated from Hungary between 2006 and 2019 to Western Europe mainly in search of job opportunities.

The absence of these young and mobile Hungarians has left a significant void in the opposition to Orban’s policies. Although these emigres are eligible to vote in national elections by mail, the government placed severe restrictions including limited hours and few available locations, so the number of actual ballots cast by Hungarians abroad has been limited.

On the other hand, ethnic Hungarians who live in the neighboring countries of Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, and Ukraine - part of Greater Hungary before the 1920 Trianon Treaty that reduced Hungary’s territory by two-thirds - are allowed to vote.

The Trianon Treaty is still seen by most Hungarians as a "stab in the back by the West." In an effort to strengthen the ethno-national identity of these trans-border Hungarians, Orban’s government offered them citizenship and approximately one million were naturalized and became dual citizens.

In gratitude, these ethnic Hungarians voted in the 2018 elections overwhelmingly (96.2 percent) for Fidesz, thus providing Orban’s party with a two-thirds majority in the parliament.

Viktor Orban has been in power for the past ten years. His populist authoritarianism is neither an anomaly nor an accident. He has been successful in reinforcing Hungarians' suspicions and mistrust of the other by conducting a massive indoctrination campaign.

But his Kulturkampf falls on fertile ground. Orban’s nativist Hungary embodies the types of political, social and cultural landscapes that many Hungarians welcome.

Yehuda Lukacs is Associate Professor Emeritus of Global Affairs, George Mason University

[Emil El Zapato]

Hi Chris,

As I'm slipping back into sanity, it occurred to me that Wind made a very good point the other day...Living in the environment you described doesn't require the supernatural to consume one's identity. I know how old I get, but I've seen and lived that, too. Honestly, I would advise you move to a more 'settling' place. The Feng Shui doesn't sound conducive to peace and harmony.

[Wind]

You reminded me of something NAP, I think there should be a thread about supernatural phenomenon here.

Did you ever play with the ouija board? If not, good for you. I never thankfully did and never would based on the stories.

[Emil El Zapato]

:), yes, of course...and I broke all the rules. I would play by myself because I knew I wasn't faking it. That is kind of a long scary story and I still really dont' know what to make of it.

[Chris]

Hi Chris,

As I'm slipping back into sanity, it occurred to me that Wind made a very good point the other day...Living in the environment you described doesn't require the supernatural to consume one's identity. I know how old I get, but I've seen and lived that, too. Honestly, I would advise you move to a more 'settling' place. The Feng Shui doesn't sound conducive to peace and harmony.

I would prefer to live in the countryside, but my tiny studio apartment (which I own outright), isn't worth that much and for the amount I could sell it for (about 35000 USD), all I could get is an empty plot, with nothing on it. I would have to take out a considerable mortgage to buy anything substantially better than what I currently own and I'm not even sure if I would qualify.

In the current situation I prefer to stay put. Property prices here have gone through the roof in the past few years, because we are right next to the Austrian border and within commuting distance of Vienna (1-1,5 hours, depending on traffic).

[Emil El Zapato]

I totally get it, Chris...but you sound like a person that is doing the right things? Doesn't that point out a societal level problem? Money, the concept is a creeping virus.

[Wind]

:), yes, of course...and I broke all the rules. I would play by myself because I knew I wasn't faking it. That is kind of a long scary story and I still really dont' know what to make of it.

I knew you were mad. ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

Amen to that, brother, but I was young and innocent (really not so innocent) :)

[Dreamtimer]

There have been discussions on the forum about ouija boards. Potentially dangerous stuff, particularly if you don't close the door.


What's going on here in the States is not communism. The wealth has been redistributed, into fewer and fewer hands. The numbers speak for themselves. The majority of the wealth in America is in the hands of a very few people, most of whom don't pay taxes for all the services that they use.

At one time the laws in our country required corporations to take into account the communities they were part of. Now they don't have to care about anyone but their shareholders, and most of their wealth ends up outside of the country in tax shelters.

The middle class has been sucked dry and our leaders are still begging us to go out and spend while not wanting us to be paid enough to do so.

It's nothing like communism.

Wanting a man like Trump to round folks up and put them in prison sounds utterly insane. I don't believe you're insane, Chris, but that's some serious crazy talk.

[Chris]

There have been discussions on the forum about ouija boards. Potentially dangerous stuff, particularly if you don't close the door.


What's going on here in the States is not communism. The wealth has been redistributed, into fewer and fewer hands. The numbers speak for themselves. The majority of the wealth in America is in the hands of a very few people, most of whom don't pay taxes for all the services that they use.

At one time the laws in our country required corporations to take into account the communities they were part of. Now they don't have to care about anyone but their shareholders, and most of their wealth ends up outside of the country in tax shelters.

The middle class has been sucked dry and our leaders are still begging us to go out and spend while not wanting us to be paid enough to do so.

It's nothing like communism.

Wanting a man like Trump to round folks up and put them in prison sounds utterly insane. I don't believe you're insane, Chris, but that's some serious crazy talk.

DT, I never said the US currently has communism, of course not, it is a hypercapitilistic and ultra-unequal society, hence movements towards more equality are a natural reaction to that. I'm not opposed to more equality and some sort of Social Democratic model, however, the tactics used by the far-left currently to achieve that are revolutionary in nature and are reminiscent of Maoism and Bolshevism in their language and methods.

Their ultimate aim isn't Communism admittedly, but some sort of socialist system, with heavy redistribution, however, my point is that their tactics are likely to end up impoverishing everyone, rather than lifting up the poor from poverty, which was invariably the case, whenever such revolutionary methods were tried.

[Dreamtimer]

Everyone is already being impoverished. The stock market will tank again, and the folks who bet on a losing economy will make more money, again.

The same types have been making money off of the fall in the economy due to the coronavirus. And when election season hits full force and Trump fuels the fires of the Boogaloo Boys, more rich folks will get richer off the continuing collapse of the economy.

The left isn't making this happen. They are not the ones wielding power. The power in this country is where the money is.

[Chris]

Everyone is already being impoverished. The stock market will tank again, and the folks who bet on a losing economy will make more money, again.

The same types have been making money off of the fall in the economy due to the coronavirus. And when election season hits full force and Trump fuels the fires of the Boogaloo Boys, more rich folks will get richer off the continuing collapse of the economy.

The left isn't making this happen. They are not the ones wielding power. The power in this country is where the money is.

No, you don't get what I mean by impoverishment. People will be eating tree bark to stave off hunger (or each other), rather than live like kings off food stamps and benefits, like they currently do. You think poor Americans are poor, but in absolute terms, they live like kings. That is why most of them are enormous. Americans have always lived extremely well by world standards, the land is just so abundant and productive. However, if the current collapse continues, they may well find out what real poverty means, in absolute terms.

[Chris]

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/disorders-now-and-to-come/

Disorders Now and To Come

The desperate condition of the USA is a much greater illness than the symptomatic grievance of systemic racism — though, for the moment, that complaint galvanizes the nation’s attention because it is woven into so many strands of national myth, narrative, and historic psychodrama. The short version of systemic racism is that predatory white Europeans came upon the New World and raped it, and then, utilizing that ill-gotten treasure, proceeded to rape the rest of the world and the non-whites peacefully living there (a.k.a. Colonialism). Who has any sympathy for the rapist?

Leaving aside the omissions in that story, the USA faces a graver set of circumstances than the animus between blacks and whites. In the background these weeks of protests, riots, looting, and arson is the disintegrating economy, which signifies that pretty much everybody in this land will not be able to keep on keeping on in the ways we’re used to. Everybody will have a harder time making a living. Everybody will endure shocking losses in wealth, status, and comfort. And, sadly, everybody will be too perplexed and bamboozled by the rush of events to understand why.

The short version of that story is we’ve overshot our resources, especially the basic energy resources that all other activities require. This mystifies the public, too, but you can boil it down to the cost of getting oil out of the ground being too high for customers and not high enough for the oil producers to cover their costs — a quandary. One result has been the rapid bankruptcy of the shale oil industry. Another is the incremental impoverishment of what used to be America’s broad middle-class — a malady that has, just for now, ring-fenced off the denizens of Wall Street, the notorious One Percent (of the population), who still luxuriate in zooming share prices and dividends while everybody else sucks wind in a ditch with-or-without the added affliction of Covid-19.

The perplexed and bamboozled includes the entire leadership nucleus of the land, who seem starkly unable to act coherently in the tightening vortex of crisis. While Mr. Trump seems to dimly apprehend the urgent need for economic restructuring, he’s able to express it only in messages that sound like a 1961 Frigidaire commercial, with overtones of Marvel Comics superhero grandiosity. The president may understand that a country can’t consume stuff without producing stuff, but he doesn’t get that it’s too late to bring back all that activity at the scale we used to run it when he was a young man in the 1960s. His answer to the call of restructuring — what the Soviets called perestroika before they fell apart — is to pile on more debt, that is, borrow more from the future to pay for hamburgers today.

That dovetails neatly with the needs of the financial community, led by the hapless “Jay” Powell at the Federal Reserve, who is on a mission to destroy the US dollar in order to save the banking system and its auxiliaries in the stock markets. He literally doesn’t know what to do — except “print” more dollars to support share prices, a symbolic talisman of theoretical economics that has less and less to do with what people actually do on-the-ground in the hours when they’re not sleeping. It looks unlikely that the Fed will rescue either Wall Street or Main Street. The longer he props up the former at the expense of the latter, the more certain it is that it will provoke insurrection that goes well beyond the current hostilities.

Then there is the ever-seditious opposition to Mr. Trump, the Democratic Party and its Resistance allies. Race war is their latest “solution” to the woes of a disintegrating economy, which only adds social and cultural collapse to the darkening scene. Since much of the Resistance leadership is drawn from America’s intellectual class — the news media, the campus faculties, the honchos of bureaucracy, the politicized judiciary, and the performing monkeys of Hollywood — they will end up denouncing and eating each other in their zealous competition to bring down the hated Trump by inventing ever-fresh fantasies to justify destroying western civilization and all the horses it rode in on, namely: individual liberty, free inquiry in the pursuit of truth, the rule of and due process of law, and the consent of the governed.

Never in US history has there been a faction as dishonest as today’s Democratic Party or as habituated to the application of bad faith in political conflict. Their addiction to malicious hoaxes and engineered untruths knows no limits — and naturally so, since they are motivated primarily by dissolving all boundaries in policy, law, sexual relations, and personal conduct. They’ve been busy proving the past few weeks that they’re against the social contract as a basic proposition, exhorting for an end to law enforcement while inciting street violence, crimes against property, and murder.

Many voters are onto them, of course, so the Resistance is also determined to derail the 2020 elections by any means necessary, only starting with ballot fraud but surely escalating to new, innovative chicanes and disruptions. Their chosen candidate for president — that is, their putative “leader” — is an obvious empty vessel fronting for sinister forces in the background. They stuffed Joe Biden in a basement twelve weeks ago and have no intention of setting him loose on the landscape where he would reveal his unfitness with every breath he takes and every move he makes. The news media especially, in its bad faith role, pretends not to notice, but its minions are too self-important to realize that there are other ways for citizens to learn what is happening out there.

Events are rushing ahead at a pace you can barely follow. Summer begins in another week and why, now, would you expect any lessening in civil disorders? A heat wave is upon us here in the crowded eastern US at the end of this week and that’s always an invitation to raucous behavior on the steamy streets. Have Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi appealed to their followers to end their violence? Maybe I missed that. They are hinting at a return to Covid-19 lockdown conditions — but you can forget about anyone following that when the temperature tops ninety degrees (and certainly the Dem leadership knows that).

The devastation of small business, careers, livelihoods, households, and futures continues. Take measures to protect your own future, as far as possible. Put your energy into imagining how you can be helpful to other people, and perhaps incidentally earn their trust and their assistance in mutually beneficial ways. Think about finding a plausible place to live where the rule of law perseveres. Think about how you might fit into an economy run at a smaller scale. Start taking action on that thinking. There’s potential for a lot of people to get hurt in the disorders-to-come. There’s plenty you can do to not be one them.

[Dreamtimer]

Poor people don't live like Kings. I'm not sure why you think this is so, Chris, it isn't. Poor communities suck. There's crime, the roads are bad, there are no jobs there, I could go on.

Obesity comes from a very poor diet. Surely you must know this. Too many empty calories, too little fiber and fresh produce. When people are malnourished they remain hungry despite the amount of calories they injest. There is almost no fresh produce available in poor communities. The businesses which come into these communities offer the worst options, nutritionally poor food, alcohol, and tobacco.

And then there are the paycheck loan companies who bleed people dry with their usury.

I'm surprised you don't know about these things.

Food stamps don't leave anyone living like a King. 'Welfare Queens' are a myth used to make people mad and score political points. Clinton got rid of endless welfare, or didn't you get the memo?

[Dreamtimer]

From the Atlantic:


Twitter’s decision to label Trump’s posts as misleading was a hinge moment. For years, the company had provided the president with a platform for propaganda and a mechanism for cowing his enemies, a fact that long irked both critics outside Twitter and employees within. Only when Trump used Twitter to threaten violence against the protests did the company finally limit the ability of users to see or share a tweet.
Once Twitter applied its rules to Trump—and received accolades for its decision—it inadvertently set a precedent. The company had stood strong against the bully, and showed that there was little price to pay for the choice. A large swath of S&P 500 companies soon calculated that it was better to stand in solidarity with the protests, rather than wait for their employees to angrily pressure them to act.

A cycle of noncooperation was set in motion. Local governments were the next layer of the elite to buck Trump’s commands. After the president insisted that governors “dominate” the streets on his behalf, they roundly refused to escalate their response. Indeed, New York and Virginia rebuffed a federal request to send National Guard troops to Washington, D.C.* Even the suburb of Arlington, Virginia, pulled police officers who had been loaned to control the crowd in Lafayette Square.

As each group of elites refused Trump, it became harder for the next to comply in good conscience. In Sharp’s taxonomy, the autocrat’s grasp on power depends entirely on the allegiance of the armed forces. When the armed forces withhold cooperation, the dictator is finished. Of course, the U.S. is far more democratic than the regimes Sharp studied and doesn’t fit his taxonomy neatly. But on Wednesday, the president’s very own secretary of defense explicitly rejected Trump’s threat to deploy active-duty military officers to American streets. It’s among the most striking instances of an official bucking a president in recent decades.

[Aragorn]

From the Atlantic:


witter’s decision to label Trump’s posts as misleading was a hinge moment. For years, the company had provided the president with a platform for propaganda and a mechanism for cowing his enemies, a fact that long irked both critics outside Twitter and employees within. Only when Trump used Twitter to threaten violence against the protests did the company finally limit the ability of users to see or share a tweet.
Once Twitter applied its rules to Trump—and received accolades for its decision—it inadvertently set a precedent. The company had stood strong against the bully, and showed that there was little price to pay for the choice. A large swath of S&P 500 companies soon calculated that it was better to stand in solidarity with the protests, rather than wait for their employees to angrily pressure them to act.

A cycle of noncooperation was set in motion. Local governments were the next layer of the elite to buck Trump’s commands. After the president insisted that governors “dominate” the streets on his behalf, they roundly refused to escalate their response. Indeed, New York and Virginia rebuffed a federal request to send National Guard troops to Washington, D.C.* Even the suburb of Arlington, Virginia, pulled police officers who had been loaned to control the crowd in Lafayette Square.

As each group of elites refused Trump, it became harder for the next to comply in good conscience. In Sharp’s taxonomy, the autocrat’s grasp on power depends entirely on the allegiance of the armed forces. When the armed forces withhold cooperation, the dictator is finished. Of course, the U.S. is far more democratic than the regimes Sharp studied and doesn’t fit his taxonomy neatly. But on Wednesday, the president’s very own secretary of defense explicitly rejected Trump’s threat to deploy active-duty military officers to American streets. It’s among the most striking instances of an official bucking a president in recent decades.

You know, this could be the end of the whole QAnon religion. If and when the US military itself turns its back on Trump, then the whole house of cards will come tumbling down on top of them.

This should be good. I can't wait. :grin: :popc:

[Emil El Zapato]

Poor people don't live like Kings. I'm not sure why you think this is so, Chris, it isn't. Poor communities suck. There's crime, the roads are bad, there are no jobs there, I could go on.

Obesity comes from a very poor diet. Surely you must know this. Too many empty calories, too little fiber and fresh produce. When people are malnourished they remain hungry despite the amount of calories they injest. There is almost no fresh produce available in poor communities. The businesses which come into these communities offer the worst options, nutritionally poor food, alcohol, and tobacco.

And then there are the paycheck loan companies who bleed people dry with their usury.

I'm surprised you don't know about these things.

Food stamps don't leave anyone living like a King. 'Welfare Queens' are a myth used to make people mad and score political points. Clinton got rid of endless welfare, or didn't you get the memo?

What's funny about Clinton is that even as President he bought into the myths and memes, Perhaps not but the ambient social zeitgeist forced his hand. Later, when the realities emerged having always been bolstered by real scientific research, Clinton not so publicly admitted he had made a mistake...but it never makes any difference to those whose urges run lower than logic. Not suggesting this of Chris but there are plenty around, not suggesting this forum...oy vey! Talk about political correctness, perhaps pc is just another poopoo hole to dive into. Ringo Starr once showed us how a little money will tip that balance. :)

[Chris]

Poor people don't live like Kings. I'm not sure why you think this is so, Chris, it isn't. Poor communities suck. There's crime, the roads are bad, there are no jobs there, I could go on.

Obesity comes from a very poor diet. Surely you must know this. Too many empty calories, too little fiber and fresh produce. When people are malnourished they remain hungry despite the amount of calories they injest. There is almost no fresh produce available in poor communities. The businesses which come into these communities offer the worst options, nutritionally poor food, alcohol, and tobacco.

And then there are the paycheck loan companies who bleed people dry with their usury.

I'm surprised you don't know about these things.

Food stamps don't leave anyone living like a King. 'Welfare Queens' are a myth used to make people mad and score political points. Clinton got rid of endless welfare, or didn't you get the memo?

Yes, DT, I know about these things. But I have seen real poverty and I can tell you that practically no one in the United States is poor in absolute terms. Look up the difference between relative and absolute poverty.

People who live in first world countries have no idea how lucky they are and how good they've been having it. All that is about to change and you are likely to see real poverty in America and the West for the first time in almost a century.

Unfortunately I know my history and geography all too well, so I can easily see the similarities and differences with other time periods and geographical regions. Poor people in the USA today live extremely well by world standards and especially compared to other historical periods. Nobody has to survive on less than a dollar a day, even a homeless beggar eats better than a factory worker in India or a farmhand in Africa. There are also various welfare programmes and charities that cater to basic needs. Nobody actually has to starve, if they apply for help.

BTW, Henry VIII was considered extremely large in his time, today he would feel small in your average Wal-mart aisle.

[Emil El Zapato]

"Food Insecurity" is the sociological measure...We can very much find that in the United States...

[Chris]

"Food Insecurity" is the sociological measure...We can very much find that in the United States...

Yes, indeed, but that is very different from people actually starving to death, or being on the brink of starvation all the time. Food insecure people in the US might have to skip some meals, but overall they get plenty of calories, as evidenced by their girth. Quality is another matter, but let's leave that aside for now. In many places in South Asia and Africa, people are starving and not just now, but probably have been for the last couple of centuries. America has always been well known for its extreme abundance and that remains true today.

[Emil El Zapato]

no argumento there... :)

[Octopus Garden]

Chris,

There are homeless all over North America, in large numbers. That is real poverty. Those who say that it is all due to drug addiction don't understand what a chicken and egg argument that is. In order to emotionally survive living homeless becoming an addict might be a base minimum requirement.

But the whole tree bark thing...I hear you...that's a step beneath empty calories, for sure! So sorry that your country had to endure that kind of misery!

[Wind]

The United States can spend billions in warfare to kill other people, but it can't "afford" to shelter it's own homeless people and feed them, among them being veterans who fought for their country. Then there are the people who have very little or are struggling a lot and might end up homeless, maybe because of their ridiculous hospital bills (https://pnhp.org/news/i-live-on-the-street-now-how-americans-fall-into-medical-bankruptcy/). There sure is a difference between third world and first world povery, but it's still poverty. There are the haves and the have nots (https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch/2017/11/09/the-3-richest-americans-hold-more-wealth-than-bottom-50-of-country-study-finds/#5fa582323cf8).

"In Money We Trust,
we’ll find happiness
the prevailing attitude;
like a genetically modified irradiated Big Mac
is somehow symbolic of food.

Morality is legislated
prisons over-populated
religion is incorporated
the profit-motive has permeated all activity"

[Octopus Garden]

Then there is the ever-seditious opposition to Mr. Trump, the Democratic Party and its Resistance allies. Race war is their latest “solution” to the woes of a disintegrating economy, which only adds social and cultural collapse to the darkening scene. Jim Kunstler

This is part of a greater conspiracy theory that has some truth to it, but is woefully lacking in its entirety. The race 'war' is not part of a design. It is part of a reality that has been a long time coming. It is not a war. Protesting is not warring. Those with tanks, shoulder mounted rocket launchers, aimed at Palestine are warring, and as a very pale Jewish guy with very pro Israel bias, he is all FOR that.

Kunstler is brilliant. Much of what he says is true. Some of what he says is biased and I am not sure of the other parts.

[Chris]

Thankfully, none of you guys have seen real poverty in North America and Western Europe. Obviously I am talking to a wall here, because you just don't get it, you really need to live in a third world country to understand. Be happy of your ignorance.

BTW, even middle-class people in the poorer parts of the world would kill for the opportunities and support network that poor people in the "West" are afforded as a birthright. I pray that you guys never get to experience real poverty where you live.

[modwiz]

Thankfully, none of you guys have seen real poverty in North America and Western Europe. Obviously I am talking to a wall here, because you just don't get it, you really need to live in a third world country to understand. Be happy of your ignorance.

BTW, even middle-class people in the poorer parts of the world would kill for the opportunities and support network that poor people in the "West" are afforded as a birthright. I pray that you guys never get to experience real poverty where you live.

Thankfully, I know how to count my blessings.

I heard you loud and clear. I just stay out of the fray.

I prefer to respect the dead.

And, my own peace.

[Emil El Zapato]

Thankfully, none of you guys have seen real poverty in North America and Western Europe. Obviously I am talking to a wall here, because you just don't get it, you really need to live in a third world country to understand. Be happy of your ignorance.

BTW, even middle-class people in the poorer parts of the world would kill for the opportunities and support network that poor people in the "West" are afforded as a birthright. I pray that you guys never get to experience real poverty where you live.

Our ignorance:
As a grade schooler we had a lunch room that was like a military mess hall...Literally guards posted (fellow students, of course) that would inspect food plates, liquid containers, etc to insure that nothing was being wasted, 'Because there were people starving in China and India'.
One of my friends, a witty sort, once told them if it was so important that it required an inspection team at the garbage pails, they should send that food to China.

He always said things I never would have had the nerve to utter. Not a politically correct guy, this one...no, he was not...I once told him that if he didn't hold his racist tongue at a sporting event, I would leave him standing by himself...strangely enough, I actually got a few hear, hears from people around us. He is a dear friend, even today.

The world can be a complex place, Chris, immeasurably compounded by those not forgiving and by those that wear a facade without awareness.

[Dreamtimer]

The poor in America do not live like Kings, even with the comparison to folks in other parts of the world. And focusing on the Democrats, who are not the ones who have been wielding the real power is a waste of time and energy.

How 'bout we look at the actual folks with the power and talk about where they're taking the rest of us?

"...among them being veterans who fought for their country." Amen, brother.

[Dreamtimer]

Looks like some political collapse is happening...


”People can’t simultaneously be in Charlotte holding a meeting on the Republican platform and in Jacksonville listening to Mike Pence or Melania Trump give a speech.”

I suppose I was a bit naïve. There was an obvious solution but I didn’t see it because I don’t have enough of a criminal mind.

✂️

On Wednesday, the RNC’s executive panel voted to leave the 2016 party platform in place, with absolutely no edits. This will have the absurd result of leaving in place language about the president that clearly refers, in a critical manner, to Barack Obama.

✂️

Of course, both moderates and social conservatives are furious. They’ve both been gearing up to battle over the party platform, and now there will be no debate at all. Yet, by eliminating the most important piece of party business, the RNC no longer has to worry that people will be in Charlotte hashing out party principles when they should be in Jacksonville adoring the president.

✂️

This is a final confirmation that the Republican Party has become a cult that stands for nothing and exists only to fluff Donald Trump’s ego. It was completely predictable but I failed to foresee it because I was still operating in the world where contracts are honored and political parties are made of up people who care about policy.


original source (https://www.alternet.org/2020/06/the-gop-just-made-a-deeply-revealing-decision-about-its-2020-platform/)

[Emil El Zapato]

I've been waiting for the other shoe to drop...perhaps this is it.

[Wind]

BTW, even middle-class people in the poorer parts of the world would kill for the opportunities and support network that poor people in the "West" are afforded as a birthright. I pray that you guys never get to experience real poverty where you live.

I am grateful for what I have even though in my own life I've experienced relative poverty and sickness. Everything is indeed relative.

[Emil El Zapato]

Haven't we all, that is what makes us human if we choose to let it...

[Chris]

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/06/some-thoughts-on-new-york-city-and-the-dim-prospects-for-american-cities.html

Some Thoughts on New York City and the Dim Prospects for American Cities

I’ve been wanting to write for some time about the outlook for the economy in the coronavirus era, but the topic is too sprawling to fit into one post. I’ll start with the very much diminished prospects for American cities, based in part on a trip to New York last week.

The overarching theme is unless effective treatments and prophylactics go into service on a widespread basis soon (and by “soon” I means three to four months), the damage to productive capacity will be severe and lasting. As we said earlier:

The related point… is that Covid-19 will do far deeper damage than most experts anticipate because it is reducing productive capacity on a lasting basis in many sectors: restaurants, hotels, entertainment, air transportation, conferences, and conceivably higher education. In the days of the Spanish Flu or even the Great Depression, there were far fewer highly skilled and specialized roles, so it was easier for men to find work in new fields when jobs opened up, and for machinery to be retooled. What do sous chefs, bartenders, university administrators, and pilots, to name a few, do for their next act? Remember how malls have become white elephants? What happens to Class A office space in big cities now that WeWork is a thing of the past, and white collar employers are seeking to keep as many staffers as possible working remotely?

Before going into analysis, indulge me by starting with impressions. I wish I could convey adequately how deep and widespread the impact of coronavirus has been on New York. And as someone who has always strongly preferred living in cites and has chosen to live in high density areas, the new normal now means that density is a negative for most workers and residents.

Thinning out cities (which is clearly has happened already in Manhattan, witness the mass exodus of the well off and the plan of many employers to keep as many of their staff as possible working from home) is at odds with their raison d’etre: residents accepting more cramped dwellings as a tradeoff for ready and easy access to entertainment, services, and people, along with that mysterious quality of vibrant street life. Cities are about conducting most of your activities on foot and having those peregrinations be interesting. Having so many coffee shops and specialized food vendors and more broad-scale grocery stores die, IMHO, negates much of the rationale for living in a city. If you can’t forage on foot, and you are ordering in, and you aren’t much going to restaurants and bars (or theater and museums), why are you living in a city? If your job does not necessitate living there, it’s time to pull out a calculator and look at the cost of having a car and moving versus the housing and other costs of suburbs or even the countryside.

Some contend that people live in cities only for careers (and possibly mating) opportunities. But that is belied by the breathless press of the last decade plus about how more people wanted to live in urban settings for the vibrancy and convenience. And in New York City, despite it being child-hostile, when the city got cleaner and safer when it put the fiscal crisis, more and more upper income parents, chose not to follow the conventional path of moving to the ‘burbs before their kids hit school age; more and more, they remained in the city.

As an aside, yes, continuing population decline of American cities is a huge negative for global warming. The car is the enemy of the climate.

And the tragic part is that the high odds of what I saw in Manhattan becoming the new normal for US cities is a massive self inflicted wound. Hong Kong and Seoul have gotten Covid-19 infections down to impressively low levels through widespread mask-wearing plus aggressive contact tracing and testing.

I could discern many vectors of damage on a less than 72 hour stay, where I was not playing tourist or journalist and making a point of trekking about or interviewing a lot of natives. This was a particularly difficult and not at all pleasant trip due directly to the way Covid-19 has cut service levels on many fronts. Admittedly, this may have been a bit worse than conditions will be on an ongoing basis since I happened to arrive during Phase 1 of the unlockdown, or whatever the formal name is. But hardly anything seemed to be open, including businesses I was told by neighbors that were able to. Were they regrouping or had they already decided to close?

This was in keeping with how empty the city was. I can’t recall ever seeing so few people on the street in Midtown down to the Flatiron district, except on a hot weekend summer day, and even then, there would be more traffic than I saw. Most places were boarded up, and it was impossible to tell if that was due to the coronacrisis or the recent looting.

It was also extremely difficult to get taxis. The only time it was not bad was when I had to go all the way uptown to find an open bank branch; the Upper East Side on Third Avenue seemed a lot closer to the old normal

The state of my hotel suggests how hard it is going to be for a lot of businesses to adapt. I stayed at the Park Lane on Central Park South because the Covid-19 pricing made it affordable and its location ought to have been advantaged in terms of getting a cab (I’m badly injured and need to keep walking to a minimum, and I don’t do ridesharing services). I was warned they’d have reduced service but no service except for housekeeping was a more accurate statement. No help with getting my bags to the room, even after begging for it and visibly limping when pushing the trolley. Often I could not get an answer when I called the front desk. People trying to call my room similarly said they couldn’t get an operator to put them through. And even when they could get through, the sound quality was generally poor.

It had been important to me in booking the hotel that there be a coffeemaker in the room. An agent at the reservations number had assured me that there was, but when I got there, there was none, and I was treated as a fabulist when I called asking where was the coffeemaker. The breakfast joint that would deliver not surprisingly had a minimum, but also wan’t offering a lot of items it had listed on its menu like oatmeal and salads, so I wound up with an awful lot of bottled water. Ordering dinner in was similarly a lot of work for little payoff. Hardly any places were delivering. Par for the course, one that said it did insisted I order online. When I tried, I could not enter an address but had to choose from a dropdown and my hotel’s address wasn’t on it. I wound up eating all three nights from a mediocre Japanese restaurant.

The point of this shaggy dog story is that if this is typical what nominal four star and lower hotels need to do to slash costs in light of low occupancy, who is going to want to stay at one even at a bargain price? The only reason might be having greater confidence in the regularity of their cleaning than an AirBnB, or perhaps access to a hotel gym. And this means that traveling for business or nominal pleasure is a hell of a lot less fun (and don’t get me started again on the airlines) at least until hotels start closing so the survivors get more bookings.

Now let’s look more surgically at why cities are in trouble. The concern about them being dangerous to health isn’t new; recall how Shakespeare fled London during one of its plague outbreaks. In the days of tuberculosis and polio, fresh air and clean water were seen as conducive to health; I’m told that one of the reasons New York City types are so keen on sending their kids to summer camp is that it’s a long-standing tradition, dating to the time when swimming pools were seen as possible transmissions mechanisms for polio.

The decision of so many companies to keep workers at home when they can isn’t just for their health; it’s likely even more for the benefit of their managers and the execs.

A partial list of some of the things now working against cities:

Elevators. People are now afraid of taking elevators with others, which makes going back to the old normal of crowded lobbies and packed cabs a no-go zone for most. Megan McArdle, in a recent Washington Post op-ed, predicted that “If you used to work in a high rise, and are now working at home, then odds are that, come Dec. 31, you will still be someone who used to work in a high rise, and now works from home.” Elevators were the first reason why; in skyscrapers, there’s not ready way to space out arrivals and exits enough to prevent crowding.

And this applies to residential buildings. One of my friends claimed she was having a great lockdown because skipping the elevator and regularly climbing four flights, sometimes with groceries, had gotten her in great shape. Manhattan has had decades of tearing down small old townhouses and putting up residential high-rises. Those are now looking like albatrosses.

Mind you, these fears are not well founded if people are wearing masks.


Mike Cramer
@mikewebkist
· Jun 9, 2020
Replying to @asymmetricinfo
Not to be the @mattyglesias in the room, but has anyone asked the Koreans? Or the Germans? Or...anyone?


Sebastian H
@Sebastian_Hols
Yes. The contact tracing in South Korea suggests that elevator risk with masks is essentially zero. Worrying about this is not scientifically based.

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Even back in 1997, the one time I visited Seoul, there were many blocks of residential high rises (20+ floors) on the way in from the airport, so the South Koreans have a more than adequate sample of elevator riders.

And when you think about it a bit, this result makes sense. You aren’t waiting in the lobby next to or crammed in an elevator with others for very long. The passengers seldom talk to each other, so that eliminates a high-risk event. So what you are left with is the occasional cough or sneeze. Going out for a drink or being in a cube farm next to someone who is on the phone most of the day is far more hazardous, but that isn’t how most people see the risks.

Mass Transit. New York City had already seen declining ridership on its subways before coronavirus thanks to investor-subsidized local transportation services like Uber sucking passengers away. Fares plunged during the lockdown since no one was supposed to be out and about; I had no feel as to how much activity had rebounded, but the death of activity in business areas says “not much” even before allowing for reservations about getting into subway cars. I did see more bikes out than when I lived there, but not considerably more.

Communters show a much clearer picture. Remember that nearly two million people used to come into Manhattan daily, with the suburbanites the biggest group, using the Metro North and the Path and to a much lesser extent, busses.

Yet even with the number of people in Midtown visibly very low, the word from execs and top managers who have to trek in for a deemed-to-be-necessary in person meeting say transportation is strained. Why? Anyone who has the option is driving rather than taking mass transit in. Yet Manhattan has been designed on the premise that most people who commute in would take public transportation most of the time. My contacts say that the garages and parking lots are packed. Supporting their claims, I noticed when I left, at around 11:15 AM, that the inbound lanes on and approaching the Queensboro Bridge were packed.

The Coming Thinning Out Reduces Density and With It, Attractiveness. Friends in the New York area estimate that half its restaurants will die. In the business areas, that number looks low. The same is true for all the little retail shops that depended on lunch time or after work traffic. And it’s also in order for hotels. Many need to shutter so the survivors will have high enough occupancy levels to be able to provide at least adequate service.

Mind you, what you’ll have is much like the Wall Street area of my youth, when there were only three restaurants good enough for recruits, where most ate at their desks and the order-in options were limited in number and merely OK in quality, and the near-office shopping was sparse. But this isn’t what urban workers have come to expect, and the absence of all that store stuff will feel like a degradation.

So while this kind of thinning of nearby businesses won’t make a business district unworkable, just boring and not very hospitable, it’s a different matter entirely for residential neighborhoods. Most people expect to have a decent grocer, a pharmacy, and say a bank and dry cleaner not too far, meaning a five to ten minute walk. Big bonus points for amenities like a good bakery or coffee shop. Who wants to live in residential blocks with nothing nearby and rely entirely on ordering in? That’s the lockdown lifestyle that most were desperate to see end.

Next Order Effects Will Further Damage Urban Life. It’s a no-brainer that municipalities will face big drops in tax revenues, which will lead to service cuts and make cities grubbier and nastier.

We already have commercial tenants, even ones that can afford to, not paying landlords. The bigger ones are very good at fighting to get their assessments lowered, so bye bye a big chunk of property tax income. The same is true on the residential side. Owners that can’t pay their property taxes and mortgages will default and face foreclosure. Even if banks leave the borrowers in place (which they did in some locales like Las Vegas in the crisis just past because it was cheaper for them to have the to-be-ex-owner maintain and secure the house), that does not solve the city’s tax arrearage.

Let’s continue down the list. Sales taxes stay down due to diminished restaurant bookings and lower retail spending generally. Older consumers and those with compromised immune systems will be particularly reluctant to go out and shop. Hotel taxes have plunged and will stay low. User fees for public transportation will also stay depressed, forcing systems into schedule reductions and fare rises, risking putting their systems in a death spiral.

And municipal jobs will be cut, leading to more losses of local sales and property tax revenues.

My write-up is if anything far too anodyne. From Mike Hiltzik’s column last week in the Los Angles Times, An apocalyptic collapse in state and local government employment is already upon us:

Employment by state and local governments has fallen off a cliff….

The employment report issued June 5 by the Bureau of Labor Statistics showed that state and local government employment fell by 571,000 jobs in May. The month before, the loss was 964,000, for a two-month total of 1.535 million public sector jobs lost.

And the disaster may just be starting. Estimates of the size of the deficits faced by state and local governments through 2022 from the combination of heightened public health spending to combat the coronavirus and sinking revenues due to the economic shutdown and its continuing reverberations range from a catastrophic $500 billion through fiscal 2022 to a cataclysmic $959 billion through the end of next year….

“No state will escape the financial black hole created by this crisis,” Zandi told CNN last month.

Hiltzik is looking at both state and local governments broadly, as opposed to just cities, but the general point holds: a lot of damage has already occurred, and more is baked in unless the Feds ride into the rescue. How likely is that on anything other than a token scale? And you can be sure that any relief will be designed to be stingy with blue cities.

Before you think the severe downside is limited to particularly dense, lotta tall building cities with good public transportation, think twice. Other cities have gotten in similarly exposed positions via making tourism-related businesses important to the local economy. Consider Polar Donkey’s report last week:

I work at a very large restaurant in Memphis. Our business is predominantly tourists when there isn’t large events happening downtown (baseball game, concert, etc). Very few people are working in offices anymore. The hotels are at 20% occupance. No large events. We are allowed to seat at 50% capacity and on Monday will be able to go to 75%, but it will not matter because only doing 25% of our normal business. Restaurants in other parts of town that have local customer base have been able to switch over to take out/delivery pretty well. One restaurant I know was able to maintain its sales volume with half its staff.For decades now, Memphis has been focused on building it’s downtown. NBA arena, AAA baseball stadium, offices, resataurants, condos, and bunches of hotels. Baseball team hasn’t played a game this season and will most likely move to Peoria. NBA team trying to go to Seattle or Law Vegas. 5 new hotels will likely fold. Several restaurants will go under. Office space is empty and new construction halted. Covid19 is neutron bomb for downtown Memphis.

And the power struggle with police forces may prove to be another negative for commerce and budgets (and do not forget that we think making the police need to be brought to heel even if the short term cost looks high). I’ve heard from a few people on the ground that the police in Manhattan are refusing to pursue reports of crime in progress. The perception that cities might become dangerous isn’t a plus.

As I so often say, I wish I were wrong, but I can’t see a reason to be optimistic.

[Chris]

As much as I think that Mike Adams has gone from batshit crazy to ratfuck mental these days, I still enjoy his commentary and point of view. I think there are a few gems in there amongst all the hyperbole and right-wing hysteria.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-06-20-america-is-now-a-failed-state.html

America is now a FAILED STATE… no rule of law, no police, no leadership, no free speech, no functioning markets and no equal protection under the law… YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN

America is now a failed state.

In America, you can call 911 and the police will never show up if your property is in or near a Black Lives Matter terrorist zone, which are now de facto “police no-go zones” on U.S. soil.

In America, there are no functioning markets. Prices of stocks and bonds are set entirely by Federal Reserve money printing and interest rate manipulations. Rational investing has been obliterated. Market-driven price discovery is a distant memory. (This will end badly.)

In America, voting for change doesn’t work. Rioting for change gets you everything you demand. That’s because the politicians ignore the voters but adore the rioters.

In America, there is no equal protection under the law. When a group of violent terrorists seize your city, the “leaders” (the mayor and governor) will order police to evacuate, leaving you to fend for yourself against terrorist rule.

In America, free speech has been annihilated. The left-wing fanatics who run the tech giants now decide which views are “offensive,” and those voices, websites and platforms are all banned while their own radical left-wing propaganda is allowed to flourish.

In America, there is no political leadership whatsoever. The Democrats are traitors and the Republicans are feckless, spineless lose-o-crats who are utterly incapable of asserting even an inkling of leadership or the assertion of the principles they (falsely) claim to represent.

In America, the U.S. government will print money and pay you to not work, then brain dead U.S. Senators (named Mitch McConnell) will wonder why small businesses can’t find workers who want to give up their enormous unemployment benefits and get a job that pays less than what people are collecting from the government. Only in America would the government pay people to avoid working, then panic as the economy craters because the labor pool has disappeared.

In America, the food supply is filled with toxic chemicals that are all approved by corrupt government regulators, poisoning the population and leading to insane health care costs that are bankrupting the nation at every level.

In America, the education system has collapsed into a cult-like communist indoctrination system, where students are taught hatred (against their country), bigotry (against whites) and victimization tactics to deploy during riots and civil unrest. The universities have essentially churned out a generation of terrorists who destroy, not citizens who create.

In America, the entire legislative branch of the country is ruled by a corrupt Big Pharma drug cartel that controls all “science” and tells the medical journals to publish fraudulent, rigged studies that destroy the credibility of safe, low-cost drugs that could help save millions of lives from a global pandemic. In response, U.S. lawmakers bow down before Big Pharma and betray the American people, because the pharma lobby can write million-dollar checks to re-election campaigns.

In America, the FBI kneels before actual terrorists while running its own “staged” terror plots across the country to try to pretend it’s still a law enforcement agency. It isn’t.

In America, treasonous former officials like Hillary Clinton, James Comey and Andrew McCabe go free, even after committing crimes of treason against the nation, while innocent people who did nothing wrong (like Roger Stone) are persecuted and charged with crimes that can earn them life in prison.

In America, violent looters, arsonists and rioters who are arrested for committing such crimes are universally set free by left-learning District Attorneys, because Leftists protect left-leaning terror groups in America. There is no rule of law, and there is no equal justice under the law.

In America, entire police precincts surrender their territory to Antifa / Black Lives Matter terrorists, handing over tactical real estate to left-wing mobs while standing down and allowing violence to explode.

In America, the fanaticism cult of left-wing lunacy is so powerful that we’re told “silence is violence,” while we’re also told that the actual violence of the lunatic Left is “peaceful and tolerant.” In other words, if you are silent and peaceful, you are accused of “violence.” But if you are committing actual violence, you are described as “peaceful” by the media.

In America, the food processing plants are shut down over fears of the coronavirus, but left-wing mobs are openly encouraged to gather in the streets, with the media claiming the pandemic isn’t as important as looting, rioting and committing acts of arson in public. So why is social distancing more important than the national food supply, then?

In America, when you vote for any political leader to represent your interests, the moment they take office, they only represent one of two things: If they’re a Democrat, they represent anarchy and communism; if they’re a Republican, they represent corporate profits and nothing else. YOU are never represented, no matter whom you vote for.

In America, the borders aren’t protected and any illegal alien can vote in an election, no I.D. required. Any idea of protecting the process of democracy has long been abandoned.

In America, the most devastating looters aren’t the Black Lives Matter lunatics in the streets; it’s actually the Federal Reserve that’s printing trillions of dollars in fiat currency, stealing the value of the money you’ve worked to earn and save. Each day, Americans awaken to “silent fiscal looting” that has drained their bank accounts while they slept, and no one riots because it all happens silently, and the media has zero interest in covering it.

In America, when new jurors are appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court in the hopes that they will represent the U.S. Constitution, they end up only representing the interests of the state, and nothing else. The idea of “originalist” Supreme Court justices is now a pathetic joke.

In America, if you run an honest online business and build an audience of followers over a decade of effort, you can be destroyed literally overnight by the tech giants who pull your advertising revenue, cancel your channels and de-platform all your content… even if you merely disagreed with the insanity of the cult-like Left.

In America, you can lose your job for not declaring that you support Black Lives Matter. Because “silence is violence,” which means your obedience is demanded… or else. (Remember when the Left used to place “COEXISTENCE” bumper stickers on their cars? Those days are long gone. Now it’s more like, “DESTROY THE DEPLORABLES!”

In America, the masses are too fat, too medicated and too brainwashed by the deceptive media to rise up and defend anything. They instantly surrender to every insane demand by the lunatic Left, and they will gladly surrender all their freedoms and their entire nation for one more box of Pop-Tarts.

America is a failed state.

And who turned America into a failed state?
-The treasonous church pastors who decided it was more important for their churches to be popular than to operate on principle.
-The treasonous members of Congress who amassed their own personal fortunes via insider trading while the rest of America burned.
-The treasonous tech billionaires that conspired with China to silence all pro-America voices while working to foment hatred and division for profit.
-The lazy, pathetic, overfed American people who retreated to comfort and acquiescence, unwilling to take a stand for anything that mattered because it might interfere with the next airing of Judge Judy.
-The lazy, pathetic American workers who decided they were too good to work and didn’t have to show up on time, expecting to be paid for not working (which the government happily obliged). “They have lost the lust for freedom, the demand for liberty,” writes the editor of TwelveRound.com. “They seek to placate their persecutors and appear reasonable on Twitter and Facebook when the demands of the mob and the government have become completely unreasonable.”
-The corporate CEOs who caved to left-wing lunacy out of fear of losing sales for taking a stand for America. See the full list of corporations and brands that now actively fund terror-linked organizations in America.
The communist teachers and college professors who exploited their positions of influence to indoctrinate an entire generation of youth with bigotry, hatred, lies and deceit… all in an effort to usher in a communist overthrow of the United States of America.
The stupid, mindless internet users who continue to use Google, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter even after knowing that they’re being censored, surveiled and tracked. Instead of shifting to alternate platforms of freedom, they censor themselves to conform with the obedience training of the lunatic Left.
-The food and pesticide corporations that poisoned the food supply for profit, feeding the masses nothing but toxic chemicals that promote chronic degenerative disease.
-The child-abusing parents who pushed their children into transgenderism, parading them around as trophies of progressivism while chemical and physically maiming their own children for life. All in the name of “progress!”
-The corrupt, greed-driven doctors who took money from Big Pharma to mass poison the entire nation with toxic prescription medications and chemotherapy poisons. And then they wonder why everyone acts like they’ve been lobotomized.

So here’s what’s coming next:
Because America is a failed state, things are going to start disintegrating at an accelerated rate. We’re all going to start seeing:

Failed infrastructure (power grid, telecommunications, water supplies, etc.).
Total collapse of the rule of law (anarchy, chaos, cops quitting en masse, etc.).
Financial collapse, followed by an explosion of nationwide riots, during which most U.S. cities will be gutted
Executions and kidnappings
Bank failures and the collapse of financial institutions
Political anarchy, attempted revolutions, assassinations of key leaders, etc.
The rise of private security contractors to protect businesses with armed, military-trained guards
A worsening of drug abuse and suicides
Increases in child trafficking and child kidnappings for the trafficking trade
Rapidly escalating censorship, including browser-based blocking of targeted websites
An explosion in homelessness and tent cities as destitution and despair spreads across the nation
Civil war and secession as the nation fragments into smaller nation-states.

As I’ve said before, Trump is the last President of the United States of America as we know it. We are entering a time of tremendous evil and destruction, and almost no one is willing to stand against it. That’s the great failure of America: The failure to defend her.

[Wind]

He says America alot.

[Chris]

He says America alot.

Reminded me of this piece :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE

[Wind]

It's like Trump saying China.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDrfE9I8_hs

[Dreamtimer]

Thirty five seconds of that was very trippy. I'm not sure what three minutes would do to my brain. :unsure:

[Malisa]

For me, it is truly frustrating to see the US called "America", i guess i don't belong to the group of people that can't see why it doesn't make any sense, so it kills me to see the word "America" used in that way

Here's why :noidea::wacko::crazy:

https://jandeane81.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2457&d=1592792294


As much as I think that Mike Adams has gone from batshit crazy to ratfuck mental these days, I still enjoy his commentary and point of view. I think there are a few gems in there amongst all the hyperbole and right-wing hysteria.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-06-20-america-is-now-a-failed-state.html

America is now a FAILED STATE… no rule of law, no police, no leadership, no free speech, no functioning markets and no equal protection under the law… YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN

America is now a failed state.

In America, you can call 911 and the police will never show up if your property is in or near a Black Lives Matter terrorist zone, which are now de facto “police no-go zones” on U.S. soil.

In America, there are no functioning markets. Prices of stocks and bonds are set entirely by Federal Reserve money printing and interest rate manipulations. Rational investing has been obliterated. Market-driven price discovery is a distant memory. (This will end badly.)

In America, voting for change doesn’t work. Rioting for change gets you everything you demand. That’s because the politicians ignore the voters but adore the rioters.

In America, there is no equal protection under the law. When a group of violent terrorists seize your city, the “leaders” (the mayor and governor) will order police to evacuate, leaving you to fend for yourself against terrorist rule.

In America, free speech has been annihilated. The left-wing fanatics who run the tech giants now decide which views are “offensive,” and those voices, websites and platforms are all banned while their own radical left-wing propaganda is allowed to flourish.

In America, there is no political leadership whatsoever. The Democrats are traitors and the Republicans are feckless, spineless lose-o-crats who are utterly incapable of asserting even an inkling of leadership or the assertion of the principles they (falsely) claim to represent.

In America, the U.S. government will print money and pay you to not work, then brain dead U.S. Senators (named Mitch McConnell) will wonder why small businesses can’t find workers who want to give up their enormous unemployment benefits and get a job that pays less than what people are collecting from the government. Only in America would the government pay people to avoid working, then panic as the economy craters because the labor pool has disappeared.

In America, the food supply is filled with toxic chemicals that are all approved by corrupt government regulators, poisoning the population and leading to insane health care costs that are bankrupting the nation at every level.

In America, the education system has collapsed into a cult-like communist indoctrination system, where students are taught hatred (against their country), bigotry (against whites) and victimization tactics to deploy during riots and civil unrest. The universities have essentially churned out a generation of terrorists who destroy, not citizens who create.

In America, the entire legislative branch of the country is ruled by a corrupt Big Pharma drug cartel that controls all “science” and tells the medical journals to publish fraudulent, rigged studies that destroy the credibility of safe, low-cost drugs that could help save millions of lives from a global pandemic. In response, U.S. lawmakers bow down before Big Pharma and betray the American people, because the pharma lobby can write million-dollar checks to re-election campaigns.

In America, the FBI kneels before actual terrorists while running its own “staged” terror plots across the country to try to pretend it’s still a law enforcement agency. It isn’t.

In America, treasonous former officials like Hillary Clinton, James Comey and Andrew McCabe go free, even after committing crimes of treason against the nation, while innocent people who did nothing wrong (like Roger Stone) are persecuted and charged with crimes that can earn them life in prison.

In America, violent looters, arsonists and rioters who are arrested for committing such crimes are universally set free by left-learning District Attorneys, because Leftists protect left-leaning terror groups in America. There is no rule of law, and there is no equal justice under the law.

In America, entire police precincts surrender their territory to Antifa / Black Lives Matter terrorists, handing over tactical real estate to left-wing mobs while standing down and allowing violence to explode.

In America, the fanaticism cult of left-wing lunacy is so powerful that we’re told “silence is violence,” while we’re also told that the actual violence of the lunatic Left is “peaceful and tolerant.” In other words, if you are silent and peaceful, you are accused of “violence.” But if you are committing actual violence, you are described as “peaceful” by the media.

In America, the food processing plants are shut down over fears of the coronavirus, but left-wing mobs are openly encouraged to gather in the streets, with the media claiming the pandemic isn’t as important as looting, rioting and committing acts of arson in public. So why is social distancing more important than the national food supply, then?

In America, when you vote for any political leader to represent your interests, the moment they take office, they only represent one of two things: If they’re a Democrat, they represent anarchy and communism; if they’re a Republican, they represent corporate profits and nothing else. YOU are never represented, no matter whom you vote for.

In America, the borders aren’t protected and any illegal alien can vote in an election, no I.D. required. Any idea of protecting the process of democracy has long been abandoned.

In America, the most devastating looters aren’t the Black Lives Matter lunatics in the streets; it’s actually the Federal Reserve that’s printing trillions of dollars in fiat currency, stealing the value of the money you’ve worked to earn and save. Each day, Americans awaken to “silent fiscal looting” that has drained their bank accounts while they slept, and no one riots because it all happens silently, and the media has zero interest in covering it.

In America, when new jurors are appointed to the U.S. Supreme Court in the hopes that they will represent the U.S. Constitution, they end up only representing the interests of the state, and nothing else. The idea of “originalist” Supreme Court justices is now a pathetic joke.

In America, if you run an honest online business and build an audience of followers over a decade of effort, you can be destroyed literally overnight by the tech giants who pull your advertising revenue, cancel your channels and de-platform all your content… even if you merely disagreed with the insanity of the cult-like Left.

In America, you can lose your job for not declaring that you support Black Lives Matter. Because “silence is violence,” which means your obedience is demanded… or else. (Remember when the Left used to place “COEXISTENCE” bumper stickers on their cars? Those days are long gone. Now it’s more like, “DESTROY THE DEPLORABLES!”

In America, the masses are too fat, too medicated and too brainwashed by the deceptive media to rise up and defend anything. They instantly surrender to every insane demand by the lunatic Left, and they will gladly surrender all their freedoms and their entire nation for one more box of Pop-Tarts.

America is a failed state.

And who turned America into a failed state?
-The treasonous church pastors who decided it was more important for their churches to be popular than to operate on principle.
-The treasonous members of Congress who amassed their own personal fortunes via insider trading while the rest of America burned.
-The treasonous tech billionaires that conspired with China to silence all pro-America voices while working to foment hatred and division for profit.
-The lazy, pathetic, overfed American people who retreated to comfort and acquiescence, unwilling to take a stand for anything that mattered because it might interfere with the next airing of Judge Judy.
-The lazy, pathetic American workers who decided they were too good to work and didn’t have to show up on time, expecting to be paid for not working (which the government happily obliged). “They have lost the lust for freedom, the demand for liberty,” writes the editor of TwelveRound.com. “They seek to placate their persecutors and appear reasonable on Twitter and Facebook when the demands of the mob and the government have become completely unreasonable.”
-The corporate CEOs who caved to left-wing lunacy out of fear of losing sales for taking a stand for America. See the full list of corporations and brands that now actively fund terror-linked organizations in America.
The communist teachers and college professors who exploited their positions of influence to indoctrinate an entire generation of youth with bigotry, hatred, lies and deceit… all in an effort to usher in a communist overthrow of the United States of America.
The stupid, mindless internet users who continue to use Google, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter even after knowing that they’re being censored, surveiled and tracked. Instead of shifting to alternate platforms of freedom, they censor themselves to conform with the obedience training of the lunatic Left.
-The food and pesticide corporations that poisoned the food supply for profit, feeding the masses nothing but toxic chemicals that promote chronic degenerative disease.
-The child-abusing parents who pushed their children into transgenderism, parading them around as trophies of progressivism while chemical and physically maiming their own children for life. All in the name of “progress!”
-The corrupt, greed-driven doctors who took money from Big Pharma to mass poison the entire nation with toxic prescription medications and chemotherapy poisons. And then they wonder why everyone acts like they’ve been lobotomized.

So here’s what’s coming next:
Because America is a failed state, things are going to start disintegrating at an accelerated rate. We’re all going to start seeing:

Failed infrastructure (power grid, telecommunications, water supplies, etc.).
Total collapse of the rule of law (anarchy, chaos, cops quitting en masse, etc.).
Financial collapse, followed by an explosion of nationwide riots, during which most U.S. cities will be gutted
Executions and kidnappings
Bank failures and the collapse of financial institutions
Political anarchy, attempted revolutions, assassinations of key leaders, etc.
The rise of private security contractors to protect businesses with armed, military-trained guards
A worsening of drug abuse and suicides
Increases in child trafficking and child kidnappings for the trafficking trade
Rapidly escalating censorship, including browser-based blocking of targeted websites
An explosion in homelessness and tent cities as destitution and despair spreads across the nation
Civil war and secession as the nation fragments into smaller nation-states.

As I’ve said before, Trump is the last President of the United States of America as we know it. We are entering a time of tremendous evil and destruction, and almost no one is willing to stand against it. That’s the great failure of America: The failure to defend her.

[Dreamtimer]

This is the stuff that will lead to world-wide collapse.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaUywzBWkAE8Xxc?format=jpg&name=small


Alarming heat scorched Siberia on Saturday as the small town of Verkhoyansk (67.5°N latitude) reached 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit, 32 degrees above the normal high temperature. If verified, this is likely the hottest temperature ever recorded in Siberia and also the hottest temperature ever recorded north of the Arctic Circle, which begins at 66.5°N.

The town is 3,000 miles east of Moscow and further north than even Fairbanks, Alaska. On Friday, the city of Caribou, Maine, tied an all-time record at 96 degrees Fahrenheit and was once again well into the 90s on Saturday. To put this into perspective, the city of Miami, Florida, has only reached 100 degrees one time since the city began keeping temperature records in 1896.


This heat is not an isolated occurrence. Parts of Siberia have been sizzling for weeks and running remarkably above normal since January. May featured astonishing warmth in western Siberia, where some locales were 18 degrees Fahrenheit above normal, not just for a day, but for the month. As a whole, western Siberia averaged 10 degrees above normal for May, obliterating anything previously experienced.


Zombie fires are the fires that burned last season, and they never stopped smoldering through the fierce and bitter cold Arctic winter.

The fires have erupted yet again as the temperatures rise to record-breaking highs. These fires are exploding in Siberia and across the Taiga forests of northern Canada and Alaska.


Fort McMurray may sound familiar; it is the city that supports the extraction of the filthy Alberta Tar Sands. The tar sands came close to igniting just a couple of years ago, so close that Fort McMurray had to be evacuated.

Scientists fear that the fires are the least of our problems. As permafrost thaw accelerates, releasing more carbon into the atmosphere, impacting the stability of glaciers and sea ice as well as increasing the threats of drought, flood, and heat from climate change. Because what happens in the Arctic does not stay in the Arctic.


It is not just warmer temperatures and erupting wildfires across the Taiga. Climate change has also brought extreme flooding and pest invasions northward into Siberia and beyond to the north pole.

We have family in New England and they're dealing with very hot temps which they are not used to at all. Not yet, anyway.

[Emil El Zapato]

I went to a Fry's electronics store yesterday and I thought it was closed because it was so deserted. They were open and their shelves were nearly empty. They've gone completely online. The way I see it the sectors that will suffer don't specialize in communications of any kind and that is a limited in large part to, dare we say it, the oil and gas industry. Of course, we need oil products of many kinds but the 'battery' industry is the one that has been the hope for the future, not the least of reasons is our survival. It certainly isn't out of the question that world economy will contract, but if one is looking for a silver lining, it would put the notion of a 'gold standard' back in the realm of 'it could really happen' rather than the exploitative fantasy that it chugs along on now.

The uneducated middle sector has been increasingly stressed to find a way out, perhaps this is the kick in the buttocks that the right insists everyone not conservative needs. We are an innovative species, until we're not, and then it is c'est la vie. Restaurants, entertainment, and other sectors will find a way to maximize profits, that has never been a shortcoming of the human species... We'll make it.

[Emil El Zapato]

Reminded me of this piece :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyHSjv9gxlE

that is exactly like the song I use to sing to my daughter when she was little ....baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, I think she really liked it.

I had one for the cat, too. It went, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meowwty, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meowwty, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meoooowwwww. That's just the first verse, though....

[Octopus Garden]

that is exactly like the song I use to sing to my daughter when she was little ....baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, I think she really liked it.

I had one for the cat, too. It went, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meowwty, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meowwty, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meoooowwwww. That's just the first verse, though....

Oh Dude, You are so funny!!

[Wind]

I think something like The Venus Project (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/1125-The-Venus-Project?p=5352&viewfull=1#post5352) could have been a viable option to save civilization as it is. It still could be, but I feel that people still resist such revolutionary visions and thinking. We would need a change more than ever, but people always resist the change too. The collective level of consciousness is too low and too dumbed down. Division rules our times, we can't agree almost about anything.

Yet our current path is leading only towards one direction and that is collapse. We will be just another civilization like Atlantis which perhaps generations in the future will hardly believe that even existed. Maybe they'll find some ancient relics from our times and wonder what they were about. They will wonder why that society didn't make it either.

[Dreamtimer]

They'll call the relics OOParts.

[Chris]

Except for the rather over-the-top patriotic grandstanding, I agree with Pat Buchanan's assessment of the current political and law-and-order situation in the US below. The Bidenistas have pretty much alieniated everyone, except a few select minorities at this point. Like him or not, Trump stands for Law and Order and that will win him this coming election in a landslide.

https://vdare.com/articles/patrick-j-buchanan-a-culture-war-battle-trump-can-win?scroll_to_paragraph=7

Patrick J. Buchanan: A Culture War Battle Trump Can Win

Speaking at Mount Rushmore on Friday, and from the White House lawn on Saturday, July 4, Donald Trump recast the presidential race.

He seized upon an issue that can turn his fortunes around, and the wounded howls of the media testify to the power of his message.

Standing beneath the mammoth carved images of Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt, Trump declared: "Angry mobs are trying to tear down statues of our founders, deface our most sacred memorials, and unleash a wave of violent crime in our cities."

These mobs are made up of Marxists, criminals and anarchists. Their cause is a cultural revolution. "Their goal is not a better America. Their goal is the end of America."

After reciting the achievements of his four predecessors, Trump added: "No movement that seeks to dismantle these treasured American legacies can possibly have a love of America at its heart."

Then he put it right into the basement hideaway of Joe Biden: "No person who remains quiet at the destruction of this resplendent heritage can possibly lead us to a better future."

Trump is calling out Biden's silence in the face of an onslaught against our heroes and history as manifest political cowardice that makes Biden a moral accomplice of the mobs.

One day, Basement Boy is going to have to speak out.

Where was Biden when Trump was standing up for America on Independence Day?

As his Party tweeted that Trump's trip to Mount Rushmore was aimed at "glorifying white supremacy," Biden was wailing about the need "to rip the roots of systemic racism" out of America.

Does that sound like Harry Truman or JFK?

So the lines are drawn for 2020.

On one side are those who believe America is a good country, the greatest the world has ever seen, and that the men who created this miracle should be respected, revered and remembered.

That is not the view of the left wing of the Democratic Party.

For even as the fireworks were exploding on the Mall, a Baltimore mob was tearing down, smashing up and dumping into the Inner Harbor a landmark statue of Christopher Columbus.

That statue stood next to the Baltimore neighborhood of Little Italy and had been dedicated in 1984 by President Ronald Reagan.

Do the haters of Columbus think that destroying Columbus' statues across America will not anger and alienate Americans of Italian descent who revere the explorer? Does Biden think Italian-Americans will reward a candidate and party that will not renounce the mob that did this?

As the left wing of the Democratic Party embraces the "defund the police" movement, how long will it hold onto voters who are today watching murder rates climb to new records?

During Independence Day weekend in Chicago, 80 people were shot, and 17 of them killed.

In New York City, the number of shooting victims has risen this year by 50%. In June, there were 250 shootings, an increase of 150 over June 2019. Mayor Bill de Blasio's response: cutting $1 billion from the NYPD budget.

Over July 4, an armed Black militia arrived at the reopening of the Stone Mountain monument in Georgia, which features huge carved images of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. They want its destruction.

Trump is charged with "dividing the nation."

But it is not Trump trashing cops or providing cover for "protests" marked by looting and arson. Nor is it Trump tearing down memorials and monuments to the great Americans of the past.

Where the Democratic Party has been a portrait in indecisiveness, Trump has been clear. He stands with the cops who have gone through a hellish six weeks. He stands against defacing statues and destroying monuments. He has denounced the rioting, looting and arson that have accompanied protests the media never cease to describe as "peaceful."

It is not Trump who is dividing America. He has pledged to resist the rampages with all the weapons in his presidential arsenal.

There are four months until November's election, 18 weeks until America decides: Do we want to continue an era of protests that revert to rioting, looting and arson? Do we want to see police departments further constricted and trashed as neo-fascist?

Do we wish to see statues of presidents from Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln and Grant to Teddy Roosevelt trashed by mobs that hate America, hate her heroes and hate her history?

Trump's stand for tradition and against mob rule is the only stand the president can take. And it is a necessary stand. For this culture war is going to last long after this presidency. And it is going to determine what kind of country we shall become.

Will it be the great and glorious republic of the past or the social and cultural Marxist hellhole that is the promise of the mobs?

Trump just played the patriotism card, the correct card to play, and it may just work for his reelection.

[Emil El Zapato]

Pat Buchanan is psychotic

[Dreamtimer]

Pat Buchanan swooned daily over Sarah Palin. It's no surprise that he would like Trump.

The idea that Trump supports law and order is ridiculous. He breaks or ignores the law daily. I wonder how folks actually fall for that. He has even said he's above the law and also he has no responsibility. That is not the sort of person who upholds law and order.

Perhaps it's code for "He'll sic the cops on the 'right people'".



We would do well to remember that Robert E Lee did not want statues of himself, did not want statues celebrating the cause which was lost.

Preserving monuments to treasonous losers really shouldn't be a national priority. Not in a time of disease and economic depression.

[Chris]

Pat Buchanan swooned daily over Sarah Palin. It's no surprise that he would like Trump.

The idea that Trump supports law and order is ridiculous. He breaks or ignores the law daily. I wonder how folks actually fall for that. He has even said he's above the law and also he has no responsibility. That is not the sort of person who upholds law and order.

Perhaps it's code for "He'll sic the cops on the 'right people'".



We would do well to remember that Robert E Lee did not want statues of himself, did not want statues celebrating the cause which was lost.

Preserving monuments to treasonous losers really shouldn't be a national priority. Not in a time of disease and economic depression.

You seem to be taking a partisan view of this DT and making up excuses for what is wanton destruction of other people's property and national treasure.

There is some merit to taking confederate monuments and putting them in a separate statue or monument park with the appropriate context and explanation given. This was done by the city of Budapest in terms of Soviet Statues that had to go and it is now a very popular tourist attraction. That is quite different from destroying and defacing works of public art in the name of who-knows-what. Comparisons to the Taliban may be a bit over-the-top, but not by much.

[Emil El Zapato]

The state governments are working in tandem with the Taliban folks...of course, the governments are sanctioned by...the government. We can always point to the 'destructive' ones, that has always been a favorite of the favored. No one can 'appreciate' violence but one sure can justify it.

Remember the 'Boston Tea Party'

[Chris]

Here's an excellent article on the "Confederate Memento Park" idea, inspired by Budapest's example.

https://www.miamiherald.com/article243812472.html

[Emil El Zapato]

Now that makes sense ... I haven't read it yet ... The title says it all ... perspective, perspective,perspective

[Aragorn]

We are currently having a statue issue here in Belgium as well, and most specifically with the statues of king Leopold II, who made the whole of Congo his private property and committed many atrocities there.

The situation creates quite a precedent, because although Leopold II's nephew and successor Albert I was well-loved and regarded as a hero ─ he fought alongside the troops against the Germans in the trenches during World War I, and he was an experienced mountaineer who died under suspicious circumstances, leading to a strong (yet unproven) suspicion that the Nazis were behind his death ─ Albert I's son and successor Leopold III sold out to the Nazis in World War II, and after the death of his wife, he had an affair with (and got remarried to) a woman from a notorious Nazi-collaborator family, who was pregnant with his child. The Roman Catholic Church was complicit in the cover-up of her pregnancy until they were married, and even broke its own rule that one can only get married in church after the marriage is legalized by the mayor (or his substitute).

When the war ended, the Belgian people were torn by Leopold III's betrayal. Half of the population wanted him out, but the other half wanted him to stay. Eventually he abdicated the throne to his then only 21-year-old eldest son, Boudewijn ─ better known as Baudouin in the Anglo-Saxon world, even though Boudewijn was his actual name and he had been raised in Dutch.

Boudewijn was a very introverted and very Catholic man. He and his wife Fabiola never had any children, and so when Boudewijn unexpectedly died of a heart attack while on vacation in Spain, the throne went to Boudewijn's younger brother Albert II, who was not without controversy either, because he was known to have had an extramarital relationship, and only now after many years has it been proven in court that he has an illegitimate daughter. Albert II held the throne for twenty years, even though Boudewijn had actually been grooming Albert II's son Philippe as his successor. And so now Philippe is the reigning monarch of Belgium. The constitution has now also been changed, so that Belgium can have a queen. Philippe's eldest daughter Elisabeth ─ currently 18 years old ─ is now the crown princess.

The bottom line is that several of the statues of past Belgian monarchs are quite controversial:


Leopold II, for his reign of terror in Congo;
Leopold III, for his willful surrender to the Nazis during World War II;
Boudewijn, for having refused to acknowledge the crimes committed by Leopold II; and
Albert II, for having refused to acknowledge his illegitimate daughter for over twenty years.

The biggest controversy however currently revolves around the many statues of Leopold II, in the wake of the racism protests in the USA.

[Chris]

I really think that Leopold II is comparable to Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot in terms of crimes committed against humanity. I am surprised there are still statues of him in public squares. The other monarchs mentioned are only of local interest though, it seems to matter very little to the outside world, what will become of them.

[Wind]

Except for the rather over-the-top patriotic grandstanding, I agree with Pat Buchanan's assessment of the current political and law-and-order situation in the US below. The Bidenistas have pretty much alieniated everyone, except a few select minorities at this point. Like him or not, Trump stands for Law and Order and that will win him this coming election in a landslide.

Trump stands for law and order? Sorry to break your bubble, but Trump is about to lose the elections. He would need a miracle right now or Joe Biden dropping dead. Or perhaps if Biden really messes up in the debates then that might save Trump but probably not. Trump is extremely unpopular now even though his fanbase is really loud and hysterical. He is going down.

[Chris]

Trump stands for law and order? Sorry to break your bubble, but Trump is about to lose the elections. He would need a miracle right now or Joe Biden dropping dead. Or perhaps if Biden really messes up in the debates then that might save Trump but probably not. Trump is extremely unpopular now even though his fanbase is really loud and hysterical. He is going down.

Sorry mate, but you are the one in a bubble. Specifically, in a Western European liberal one.

I really, really don't like Trump, but I realise that the things I dislike about him are precisely the things that make him popular with those that matter, the people in America that actually vote in elections, particularly in swing states.

The current conduct of the American Left is suicidal and I can foresee it destroying the Democratic party altogether. A similar thing happened in Hungary a decade ago and the Left never recovered from that, even though they were the party most entrenched in the power structure, with the most supporters and powerful people behind them. This is actually a tragedy, because every democracy requires some balance between Left and Right, otherwise we get extremes and neither the far-Left or the far-Right are desirable places to be. But, in the US at least, the Left specifically stands for anarchy, lawlessness, anti-male chauvinism (otherwise known as misandry) and anti-white racism. US voters certainly took notice and come November, the Democrats are going to absolutely implode.

This isn't a reflection of my own views, I very much prefer the Democrats on policy and competence when in power, but they chose unwisely when taking sides in the current unfolding low-level civil war cum bolshevist revolution and they're going to pay the price. Also, Joe ByeThen is an even worse Candidate than Hillary Clinton and the DNC is so corrupt they seem completely unable to come up with a decent candidate against Trump. They always choose the establishment candidate, the one the donors prefer or in the case of the previous one, the one that buys them outright. Trump is going to eat ByeThen for breakfast, he has no chance whatsoever against Trump, I'm afraid.

[Emil El Zapato]

I am finding out more about neighbor from Venezuela...I told him yesterday I was a loony lefty and he refused to accept that, he said I was a 'conservative' Democrat. Interesting because he equates 'leftists' with the likes of Fidel Castro and other Central and South Americans dictators. He cited Obama's effort to normalize relations with Cuba and how it 'did no good' because Cuba and the Russians have taken over Venezuela and turned it into a 'shithole'. I said, Obama's efforts were thwarted and that one needed to go the full deal...meaning it is a very large circle of behaviors that result in successes.

This guy has always maintained that he doesn't fly an american flag like our stupid neighbors and doesn't even vote. Well, last week unbeknownst to me he was giving out American flags for people to put into their yards for what was ostensibly the 4th of July celebration. I was kidding him because I thought the flags were given out only to 'established' Republicans, I called him on the flag in his yard and he said he was the one giving them out. I said, "What!", you the guy that never flies an American flag. It seems he had some hidden away that he had received from some celebrations his kids had at school (he and his wife are teachers).

Anyway, he says he is actually celebrating a month of 'liberation' for America, Venezuela, and Argentina : this from the guy that told me this joke: How does a Venezuelan commit suicide? He climbs up on the shoulders of an Argentinian!

He offered me a flag and I told him there was no way I was going to put up a flag in my yard and I wasn't going to let him influence me into demonic behaviors. (He's Catholic, too) I cited Albert Einstein's perspective on flags and he said the only thing Einstein understood was theoretical physics.

I've got a flag up in my front yard.

I also told him that my new DNA test said I was 10% Peruvian and he called me a White Supremacist and went on to say African-Americans are blaming the wrong people for slavery, he said blame Great Britain and the Dutch. I just shook my and told him, "You have been in the United States way too long". He responded 21 years ... :)

We're still friends. :)

[Aragorn]

But, in the US at least, the Left specifically stands for anarchy, lawlessness, anti-male chauvinism (otherwise known as misandry) and anti-white racism.

I'm afraid you're dead-wrong about that, Chris. In the USA, the traditional left embodies the exact opposite of anarchy and lawlessness. They are all about (over-)regulation and thought control.


Trump is going to eat ByeThen for breakfast, he has no chance whatsoever against Trump, I'm afraid.

I'm not so sure that Biden doesn't stand a chance, but at the same time, I also don't expect him to win just yet. From where I'm sitting, the balance is about level. Trump has just as many adversaries as proponents.

Of course, that's not what elections should be about, but there is no fair election process in the USA, because they'll always be voting for one of two evils. The system itself excludes the possibility of someone getting into the White House who'd break the status quo.

[Emil El Zapato]

Bottom line what is happening in the U.S. is required if we are to ever become United. Personally, I don't really care about a United States but I do care about peace and tranquility and most essentially equality of the kind that people expect as an unalienable right. Equality of opportunity, not that freaking claptrap meme that Jordan Peterson pushes, equality of outcome.

[Wind]

This is actually a tragedy, because every democracy requires some balance between Left and Right, otherwise we get extremes and neither the far-Left or the far-Right are desirable places to be.

Now this is true. However, you have to understand that the United States is still a very highly right wing, ultra-capitalistic country. There are extremes on both ends and both are nuts. There should be more moderate steering towards the left and the middle. Now the corporations rule everything and both parties are ruled by money and donors, it's legalized corruption.

[Emil El Zapato]

Down with the Corporations!!

[Emil El Zapato]

One of those evils is evil because they actually have a sense of balance, an intellect that derives from more than hillbilly common sense, and a desire to do the right thing for everyone. And because they aren't flakes, fruits, or nuts! As the meme of California goes, Just ask J.P.

[Wind]

I am finding out more about neighbor from Venezuela...I told him yesterday I was a loony lefty and he refused to accept that, he said I was a 'conservative' Democrat. Interesting because he equates 'leftists' with the likes of Fidel Castro and other Central and South Americans dictators.

That's funny. I would probably be considered as a very left leaning person by the world's standards, since especially in many countries being a right winger is considered the "norm." Except that in many parts in Europe being on the left is being considered the "norm". Yet I don't like social justice warriors and I don't want to get into identity politics. What matters to me is true equality, freedom and compassion for all living beings. Don't stomp on my freedoms and I won't stomp on yours. However, I believe that ultimately we are not free right now even here. We are free only as much as the laws allow us to be, but as a good person I don't need laws to tell me what's right or wrong. I would never harm others or try to dictate how they should live their lives. That's my politics.

[Aragorn]

One of those evils is evil because they actually have a sense of balance, an intellect that derives from more than hillbilly common sense, and a desire to do the right thing for everyone.

If you believe that, then I've got a bridge for sale that you might be interested in.


And because they aren't flakes, fruits, or nuts! As the meme of California goes, Just ask J.P.

Jimmy Page? John Petrucci?

Sorry, I don't do Acronymese™ yet. I'm still busy studying Vernacular™. :grin:






I am finding out more about neighbor from Venezuela...I told him yesterday I was a loony lefty and he refused to accept that, he said I was a 'conservative' Democrat. Interesting because he equates 'leftists' with the likes of Fidel Castro and other Central and South Americans dictators.

That's funny. I would probably be considered as a very left leaning person by the world's standards, since especially in many countries being a right winger is considered the "norm." Except that in many parts in Europe being on the left is being considered the "norm". Yet I don't like social justice warriors and I don't want to get into identity politics. What matters to me is true equality, freedom and compassion for all living beings. Don't stomp on my freedoms and I won't stomp on yours. However, I believe that ultimately we are not free right now even here. We are free only as much as the laws allow us to be, but as a good person I don't need laws to tell me what's right or wrong. I would never harm others or I try to dictate how they should live their lives. That's my politics.

Amen to that, Brother. :h5:

[Emil El Zapato]

Jordan Peterson ... :ireful:

[Wind]

NAP's nemesis. :ttr:

[Chris]

That's funny. I would probably be considered as a very left leaning person by the world's standards, since especially in many countries being a right winger is considered the "norm." Except that in many parts in Europe being on the left is being considered the "norm". Yet I don't like social justice warriors and I don't want to get into identity politics. What matters to me is true equality, freedom and compassion for all living beings. Don't stomp on my freedoms and I won't stomp on yours. However, I believe that ultimately we are not free right now even here. We are free only as much as the laws allow us to be, but as a good person I don't need laws to tell me what's right or wrong. I would never harm others or I try to dictate how they should live their lives. That's my politics.

Well, in other words, you are a classical liberal.

I am pretty much on the same page, except I pepper it with a dose of realism, especially in terms of cultural and biological differences between various human groups, strictly on the basis of science of course.

It's all common sense stuff, but it has become unacceptable to discuss these issues in the public sphere, just notice the extreme negative reaction against and deplatforming, even censorship of people like Jordan Peterson and Stefan Molyneux. They really don't say anything that should be controversial, but pointing out basic facts about reality is now considered racist, sexist bigotry. This is proof btw that the Left has won the culture wars and nowadays even moderately right-wing views are strictly verboten.

[Emil El Zapato]

no, that is not the case...those types lie in the face of actual truth to bolster their cause. Their propaganda is littered with it. Blame it on the right-wing's incessant lying and propaganda spreading. I gave up giving them even a passing thought a long time ago. And I came to that condition very honestly. It was at the behest of the False Prophet, a.k.a Rupert Murdoch.

[Wind]

Well, in other words, you are a classical liberal.

Well, The Political Compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-6.25&soc=-7.54) says that I'm Social Libertarian.

https://i.ibb.co/GH5HgsB/chart.png

In the introduction, we explained the inadequacies of the traditional left-right line.

If we recognise that this is essentially an economic line it’s fine, as far as it goes. We can show, for example, Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot, with their commitment to a totally controlled economy, on the hard left. Socialists like Mahatma Gandhi and Robert Mugabe would occupy a less extreme leftist position. Margaret Thatcher would be well over to the right, but further right still would be someone like that ultimate free marketeer, General Pinochet.

That deals with economics, but the social dimension is also important in politics. That’s the one that the mere left-right scale doesn’t adequately address. So we’ve added one, ranging in positions from extreme authoritarian to extreme libertarian.

Both an economic dimension and a social dimension are important factors for a proper political analysis. By adding the social dimension you can show that Stalin was an authoritarian leftist (ie the state is more important than the individual) and that Gandhi, believing in the supreme value of each individual, is a liberal leftist. While the former involves state-imposed arbitrary collectivism in the extreme top left, on the extreme bottom left is voluntary collectivism at regional level, with no state involved. Hundreds of such anarchist communities existed in Spain during the civil war period

You can also put Pinochet, who was prepared to sanction mass killing for the sake of the free market, on the far right as well as in a hardcore authoritarian position. On the non-socialist side you can distinguish someone like Milton Friedman, who is anti-state for fiscal rather than social reasons, from Hitler, who wanted to make the state stronger, even if he wiped out half of humanity in the process.

The chart also makes clear that, despite popular perceptions, the opposite of fascism is not communism but anarchism (ie liberal socialism), and that the opposite of communism ( ie an entirely state-planned economy) is neo-liberalism (ie extreme deregulated economy)

The usual understanding of anarchism as a left wing ideology does not take into account the neo-liberal “anarchism” championed by the likes of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and America’s Libertarian Party, which couples social Darwinian right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues. Often their libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing. On the other hand, the classical libertarian collectivism of anarcho-syndicalism ( libertarian socialism) belongs in the bottom left hand corner.

In our home page we demolished the myth that authoritarianism is necessarily “right wing”, with the examples of Robert Mugabe, Pol Pot and Stalin. Similarly Hitler, on an economic scale, was not an extreme right-winger. His economic policies were broadly Keynesian, and to the left of some of today’s Labour parties. If you could get Hitler and Stalin to sit down together and avoid economics, the two diehard authoritarians would find plenty of common ground.

A Word about Neo-cons and Neo-libs

U.S. neo-conservatives, with their commitment to high military spending and the global assertion of national values, tend to be more authoritarian than hard right. By contrast, neo-liberals, opposed to such moral leadership and, more especially, the ensuing demands on the tax payer, belong to a further right but less authoritarian region. Paradoxically, the “free market”, in neo-con parlance, also allows for the large-scale subsidy of the military-industrial complex, a considerable degree of corporate welfare, and protectionism when deemed in the national interest. These are viewed by neo-libs as impediments to the unfettered market forces that they champion.


I am pretty much on the same page, except I pepper it with a dose of realism, especially in terms of cultural and biological differences between various human groups

This is off topic, but since you're a Hungarian I wanted to ask if you'd know if there's any backstory to the lyrics behind this song (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/7418-The-One-Truth-s-Lounge-Thread?p=842025313&viewfull=1#post842025313). I was very touched by it, that's a hauntingly beautiful voice and a beautiful language even though I don't understand a word! I saw the english translation though.

[Aianawa]

Know you do not like Trump and great to see your honest imo assesment.




Except for the rather over-the-top patriotic grandstanding, I agree with Pat Buchanan's assessment of the current political and law-and-order situation in the US below. The Bidenistas have pretty much alieniated everyone, except a few select minorities at this point. Like him or not, Trump stands for Law and Order and that will win him this coming election in a landslide.

https://vdare.com/articles/patrick-j-buchanan-a-culture-war-battle-trump-can-win?scroll_to_paragraph=7

Patrick J. Buchanan: A Culture War Battle Trump Can Win

Speaking at Mount Rushmore on Friday, and from the White House lawn on Saturday, July 4, Donald Trump recast the presidential race.

He seized upon an issue that can turn his fortunes around, and the wounded howls of the media testify to the power of his message.

Standing beneath the mammoth carved images of Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt, Trump declared: "Angry mobs are trying to tear down statues of our founders, deface our most sacred memorials, and unleash a wave of violent crime in our cities."

These mobs are made up of Marxists, criminals and anarchists. Their cause is a cultural revolution. "Their goal is not a better America. Their goal is the end of America."

After reciting the achievements of his four predecessors, Trump added: "No movement that seeks to dismantle these treasured American legacies can possibly have a love of America at its heart."

Then he put it right into the basement hideaway of Joe Biden: "No person who remains quiet at the destruction of this resplendent heritage can possibly lead us to a better future."

Trump is calling out Biden's silence in the face of an onslaught against our heroes and history as manifest political cowardice that makes Biden a moral accomplice of the mobs.

One day, Basement Boy is going to have to speak out.

Where was Biden when Trump was standing up for America on Independence Day?

As his Party tweeted that Trump's trip to Mount Rushmore was aimed at "glorifying white supremacy," Biden was wailing about the need "to rip the roots of systemic racism" out of America.

Does that sound like Harry Truman or JFK?

So the lines are drawn for 2020.

On one side are those who believe America is a good country, the greatest the world has ever seen, and that the men who created this miracle should be respected, revered and remembered.

That is not the view of the left wing of the Democratic Party.

For even as the fireworks were exploding on the Mall, a Baltimore mob was tearing down, smashing up and dumping into the Inner Harbor a landmark statue of Christopher Columbus.

That statue stood next to the Baltimore neighborhood of Little Italy and had been dedicated in 1984 by President Ronald Reagan.

Do the haters of Columbus think that destroying Columbus' statues across America will not anger and alienate Americans of Italian descent who revere the explorer? Does Biden think Italian-Americans will reward a candidate and party that will not renounce the mob that did this?

As the left wing of the Democratic Party embraces the "defund the police" movement, how long will it hold onto voters who are today watching murder rates climb to new records?

During Independence Day weekend in Chicago, 80 people were shot, and 17 of them killed.

In New York City, the number of shooting victims has risen this year by 50%. In June, there were 250 shootings, an increase of 150 over June 2019. Mayor Bill de Blasio's response: cutting $1 billion from the NYPD budget.

Over July 4, an armed Black militia arrived at the reopening of the Stone Mountain monument in Georgia, which features huge carved images of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. They want its destruction.

Trump is charged with "dividing the nation."

But it is not Trump trashing cops or providing cover for "protests" marked by looting and arson. Nor is it Trump tearing down memorials and monuments to the great Americans of the past.

Where the Democratic Party has been a portrait in indecisiveness, Trump has been clear. He stands with the cops who have gone through a hellish six weeks. He stands against defacing statues and destroying monuments. He has denounced the rioting, looting and arson that have accompanied protests the media never cease to describe as "peaceful."

It is not Trump who is dividing America. He has pledged to resist the rampages with all the weapons in his presidential arsenal.

There are four months until November's election, 18 weeks until America decides: Do we want to continue an era of protests that revert to rioting, looting and arson? Do we want to see police departments further constricted and trashed as neo-fascist?

Do we wish to see statues of presidents from Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln and Grant to Teddy Roosevelt trashed by mobs that hate America, hate her heroes and hate her history?

Trump's stand for tradition and against mob rule is the only stand the president can take. And it is a necessary stand. For this culture war is going to last long after this presidency. And it is going to determine what kind of country we shall become.

Will it be the great and glorious republic of the past or the social and cultural Marxist hellhole that is the promise of the mobs?

Trump just played the patriotism card, the correct card to play, and it may just work for his reelection.

[Aragorn]

Well, The Political Compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-6.25&soc=-7.54) says that I'm Social Libertarian.

https://i.ibb.co/GH5HgsB/chart.png

Yep, I'm in that same quadrant myself. ;)

[Fred Steeves]

Well, The Political Compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-6.25&soc=-7.54) says that I'm Social Libertarian.

https://i.ibb.co/GH5HgsB/chart.png

That's about where I am.

[Wind]

That's about where I am.

That's interesting, Fred. Then again, I never thought you'd be one of those conservative types.

[Emil El Zapato]

... I guess that small move to the center makes me appreciate political correctness, of course, I call it human decency... :)

2462

[Fred Steeves]

That's interesting, Fred. Then again, I never thought you'd be one of those conservative types.

Well I used to be, and still am in certain areas the test either doesn't go, or is blurry on, like guns and abortion. But according to the way the questions are presented, and options given, that's where I'm at.

I'm curious Wind. When you say "those conservative types", do I note just a bit of disgust in that tone? If I'm off base then my bad, but that is the general consensus of this forum.

[Wind]

I'm curious Wind. When you say "those conservative types", do I note just a bit of disgust in that tone? If I'm off base then my bad, but that is the general consensus of this forum.

No, conservatism isn't necessarily a bad thing. I just wouldn't call myself one. However, I do have contempt for extreme ideologies.

There's always the eternal tug of war between people who want change and those who don't want much change at all. Generally we can agree that life is in constant flux and change is the name of the game, nothing ever stays the same for a long time. Sometimes radical changes are needed in society, but you also don't want to change it too much. A balance has to be maintained. The older people become, usually the more conservative they become because they want things to stay as they "always" were in their youth. Younger people tend to be more liberal and want more change, but also they lack the experience and wisdom to know how much change is actually a good thing in the long run. It's not right to say that either are right or wrong, because the truth is somewhere in the middle. Also I'm generalizing here.

It is good to get rid of sexism, it's good to get rid racism, it's good to get rid of financial inequality. However, if you start to chop off too many central pillars of society then of course you will have chaos and anarchy. Anarchy itself isn't a bad thing either, but there has to be certain amount of structure and order in society. If you have too much structure and order through authority then by definition society becomes authoritarian and fascist. I don't think many people would want that either. I am very wary of any authority figures, because the true definition of freedom means everything to me. I don't want to give my power away to anyone. Yet I have to follow more or less what society tells me to do. Of course I will still do things my way, because I am a sovereign being ultimately, but I don't want to get into trouble with laws either.

Let people do what they want with their bodies and their consciousness, allow everyone to have a fair chance in life and let there be a proper support system which benefits everyone. Take care of the weak and vulnerable. Anti-war stance is the ideal. That's what liberalism means to me. I think that scarcity economy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy) is such a relic of the past which is holding humanity back. It's still there for a reason and that's why we are still unwilling slaves to the system which is not our friend. Many people would say that this is the best we have now, but visionaries would say that we could have something much, much better if it wasn't for greed. Of course this is about more than just politics.

[Chris]

Well, The Political Compass (https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-6.25&soc=-7.54) says that I'm Social Libertarian.

https://i.ibb.co/GH5HgsB/chart.png




This is off topic, but since you're a Hungarian I wanted to ask if you'd know if there's any backstory to the lyrics behind this song (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/7418-The-One-Truth-s-Lounge-Thread?p=842025313&viewfull=1#post842025313). I was very touched by it, that's a hauntingly beautiful voice and a beautiful language even though I don't understand a word! I saw the english translation though.

As expected, I'm pretty much a centrist, leaning more towards the Left, than the right:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2?ec=-3.75&soc=-0.77

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-3.75&soc=-0.77

Keep in mind though, this is an American survey, in Europe, my views would be considered pretty right-wing.

@Wind
Re: the song, I'm at work now, but I'll check it out in the evening.

Finnish and Hungarian sound phonetically similar (as does Korean, in my view), so you would probably find the language familiar in terms of the way it sounds, but in other ways they are actually not at all that similar to each other. There are only a few hundred root words that are common in both languages.

However, even though I don't speak Finnish, if I see a written text, I can read it with a very accurate pronunciation, to the amazement of all Finns around :)

That is of course due to the phonetic similarities between the two languages.

[Aianawa]

Whats outside of the square/s ?.

[Emil El Zapato]

Alien Aianawa ...

Problems with the test:

1. The questions are too generalized
2. In the United States Libertarian is a personal construct where the category is meant as a social construct.

Similar to South American and apparently Hungarian view of leftism as authoritarian where as in the U.S. leftism is viewed as Liberalism

I'd say Wind's results are the closest to accurate and despite your misgivings Chris I would say yours is closer.

[Dreamtimer]

When Saddam Hussein's statue came down it made little to no difference. When the Taliban shot up the ancient statues it was, in my opinion, a travesty.

I have never been a fan of destroying history. The major city I live near, Baltimore, has the most historic sites of any major US city because they were not razed and built over. They were preserved and built around.

I don't champion the statues. And I also understand that much of their symbolism, in terms of the South post-Civil War, was about keeping the black folks down.

It was a form of intimidation during Reconstruction. Many statues went up well after the Civil War was over.

My husband agrees with the idea that they should go to a park or museum for the sake of history and remembrance.

Trump is losing his precious swing state voters in droves. Republicans will have to resort to their continued strategy of voter suppression.

[Dreamtimer]

I cannot possibly take such a test without commenting on it...

"I’d always support my country, whether it was right or wrong." This is a problematic proposition, imo. Perhaps I believe my country is wrong about something and I fight that wrong thing. I still support my country. The proposition seems to imply support for wrong things.


I'd rather see the proposition that says all people should have access to clean, free water.


"The rich are too highly taxed." Laughing out loud now. They pay no taxes. They haven't for ages. With loopholes, shelters and good lawyers the rich pay little to no taxes. They point to percentages and brackets that they are never beholden to.

They should pay their fair share is what they should do.


"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." This is an Old Testament value and I was raised with the understanding that it is not an American, Christian value.

And yet my brother said it after 9/11 and I hear other folks say it, seemingly not even knowing that it goes against the teachings of Christ.


"Good parents sometimes have to spank their children." I'm not against spanking in particular. I got belted and soap in the mouth. The lesson I learned directly from that experience is that I would never do that to my child. And I didn't.

I watched my sister-in-law spank her kids. It didn't stop them from doing what they did. Does she think it was worth it? I do not know.


I had to pause to think about the death penalty. I've never been anti-death penalty. But I do not see it as justice nor as any kind of recompense. It's a fancy form of revenge. In light of the fact that we know people may be executed who are innocent, it's not something I can, in good conscience, support. Really bad criminals deserve to languish in prison. Minor offenders should not be there at all.

"Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity." What does this even mean? I find the proposition ludicrous.


Drum roll please.....

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-4.5&soc=-3.64

Like I have been saying for years now, I'm pretty near the middle.



Aianawa, what is outside the squares are us roundys! ;)

[Aragorn]

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." This is an Old Testament value and I was raised with the understanding that it is not an American, Christian value.

I'm afraid it is very much a US American value. The US has always retaliated with excessive force against anyone who dares violate its laws or its hegemony, from the over-the-top military force used against other nations, over the equally over-the-top display of military firepower and brutality by police forces against peaceful protesters, all the way to the use of the death penalty as a (ludicrously inefficient) deterrent against crime.


I had to pause to think about the death penalty. I've never been anti-death penalty. But I do not see it as justice nor as any kind of recompense. It's a fancy form of revenge. In light of the fact that we know people may be executed who are innocent, it's not something I can, in good conscience, support. Really bad criminals deserve to languish in prison. Minor offenders should not be there at all.

The main reason why the death penalty is abject is that it is coldblooded, premeditated murder. The convict is already unarmed and held in detention, so who still needs being protected against them in such a way that the convict's death would be the only possible recourse?

Furthermore, as I've stated higher up, the death penalty does not work as a deterrent against crime, even though this is probably the most-touted argument in favor of the death penalty used in the USA ─ or at least, officially, because when push comes to shove, it really is all about revenge. And that then ties in again with the vindictive nature of the US empire.

Mind you, I'm going to say something quite controversial now, namely that I am not opposed to an assassination, but only if said assassination would be the only means to prevent innocent people from being murdered, raped or otherwise damaged for life. In that regard, I see the assassination in question as a preemptive killing out of (self)defense. But it has to be absolutely certain that the assassination is equally absolutely required for the reasons stated above, and nothing else.

To give you an example ─ albeit one that comes with its own moral dilemma, which I'll explain in the paragraph below... If you could travel back in time and assassinate Adolf Hitler before he started World War II and ordered the Holocaust, wouldn't you? I think only the Hitler apologists would answer "no" to that question.

But then here's the moral dilemma... If you were to go back in time and kill Hitler ─ and assuming just for the sake of argument that you would not be branching off a new timeline ─ then what would the world look like today? You would have changed the entire course of history from 1940 onward until now. The geopolitical balance would be completely different. Europe could be submerged in Soviet communism right now. Or maybe the Nazis would still be in power in Germany today. Maybe Japan would have been annexed by Communist China. Or maybe it would be the other way around, and Imperial Japan would have conquered China long before there ever could have been a communist revolution there.

The bottom line is that there's no way of knowing, but that the world at large would nevertheless have looked very differently today if someone had succeeded in assassinating Adolf Hitler before he committed the atrocities that shall forever be associated with his name. And they've certainly tried ─ even from within the Nazi party itself ─ but of course, they failed, and the allied forces weren't willing to go there, exactly because Hitler was such a strategic goof-up that it had already become certain in advance that he was going to lose the war, and that if he were to have been assassinated, then a militarily more competent Nazi could and would have taken his place ─ that was actually the reason why some Nazis wanted to get rid of Hitler themselves and attempted to kill him. And then the Nazis would have ultimately won world War II, because Nazi-Germany was very close to developing an atomic bomb.

Nevertheless, if I were to hear of somebody's plans to commit mass murder with full impunity and I'd be convinced of the odds of this person succeeding being too great, then I would condone said individual's assassination, and then we'd have to take our chances on what the future brings. But this is of course still different from the reasons why the USA, Russia and other nation states order anyone's assassination. Nation states have people assassinated for reasons related to the power balance, or out of opportunism, or out of vindictiveness ─ basically the same reasons as why the USA invades other countries. And this is of course also light-years removed from the subject of executing an already unarmed and detained individual with premeditation.

[Chris]

Fundamentally, I'm opposed to the death penalty, because most of the time innocent people get executed and only rarely those that are actually guilty of serious crimes.

However, in some case, I do believe the death penalty is justified, but this should be preserved for very rare and serious cases. A typical example would be pyschopathic serial killers. It would have to be established without any doubt that they were guilty and then everyone would be better off with a quick and humane execution, including the serial killer himself.

Some people cannot be redeemed or rehabilitated, because they are fundamentally evil, have been from birth and their evilness (or pathological psychopathy, to use the correct term) is genetically coded, often hereditary and coded not only into their genes, but the very structure of their brain. The most humane course of action would be the death penalty in such cases, but it would require very serious professional oversight, especially in terms of psychiatric evaluation and brain scans.

[Dreamtimer]

I actually agree with you on assassination, Aragorn, if it could be assured that it is the right person and that it is for protection of people. I don't, however, have faith in our leaders to use it that way.


I'm afraid it is very much a US American value. The US has always retaliated with excessive force against anyone who dares violate its laws or its hegemony, from the over-the-top military force used against other nations, over the equally over-the-top display of military firepower and brutality by police forces against peaceful protesters, all the way to the use of the death penalty as a (ludicrously inefficient) deterrent against crime.


This is probably why my brother and other people have such a disconnect.

It's not supposed to be an American value. Our parents drilled that into our heads. It's what supposedly made us different from the Soviet Union, China, Middle Eastern nations, and others.

And of course the fact that it's an Old Testament, not a New Testament value.

[Emil El Zapato]

I cannot possibly take such a test without commenting on it...

"I’d always support my country, whether it was right or wrong." This is a problematic proposition, imo. Perhaps I believe my country is wrong about something and I fight that wrong thing. I still support my country. The proposition seems to imply support for wrong things.


I'd rather see the proposition that says all people should have access to clean, free water.


"The rich are too highly taxed." Laughing out loud now. They pay no taxes. They haven't for ages. With loopholes, shelters and good lawyers the rich pay little to no taxes. They point to percentages and brackets that they are never beholden to.

They should pay their fair share is what they should do.


"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." This is an Old Testament value and I was raised with the understanding that it is not an American, Christian value.

And yet my brother said it after 9/11 and I hear other folks say it, seemingly not even knowing that it goes against the teachings of Christ.


"Good parents sometimes have to spank their children." I'm not against spanking in particular. I got belted and soap in the mouth. The lesson I learned directly from that experience is that I would never do that to my child. And I didn't.

I watched my sister-in-law spank her kids. It didn't stop them from doing what they did. Does she think it was worth it? I do not know.


I had to pause to think about the death penalty. I've never been anti-death penalty. But I do not see it as justice nor as any kind of recompense. It's a fancy form of revenge. In light of the fact that we know people may be executed who are innocent, it's not something I can, in good conscience, support. Really bad criminals deserve to languish in prison. Minor offenders should not be there at all.

"Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity." What does this even mean? I find the proposition ludicrous.


Drum roll please.....

https://www.politicalcompass.org/chart?ec=-4.5&soc=-3.64

Like I have been saying for years now, I'm pretty near the middle.



Aianawa, what is outside the squares are us roundys! ;)

Hey DT, get offa my cloud ... :)

[Dreamtimer]

Hey! McCloud! Get offa my ewe!

Oh wait, this isn't the humor thread...

[Emil El Zapato]

Mind you, I'm going to say something quite controversial now, namely that I am not opposed to an assassination, but only if said assassination would be the only means to prevent innocent people from being murdered, raped or otherwise damaged for life. In that regard, I see the assassination in question as a preemptive killing out of (self)defense. But it has to be absolutely certain that the assassination is equally absolutely required for the reasons stated above, and nothing else..

I agree exactly about the death penalty and assassination. Sometimes assassination is the only clean way to stop unmitigated crimes against humanity.


Fundamentally, I'm opposed to the death penalty, because most of the time innocent people get executed and only rarely those that are actually guilty of serious crimes.

However, in some case, I do believe the death penalty is justified, but this should be preserved for very rare and serious cases. A typical example would be pyschopathic serial killers. It would have to be established without any doubt that they were guilty and then everyone would be better off with a quick and humane execution, including the serial killer himself.

Some people cannot be redeemed or rehabilitated, because they are fundamentally evil, have been from birth and their evilness (or pathological psychopathy, to use the correct term) is genetically coded, often hereditary and coded not only into their genes, but the very structure of their brain. The most humane course of action would be the death penalty in such cases, but it would require very serious professional oversight, especially in terms of psychiatric evaluation and brain scans.

it used to be that serial killers had value as research subjects...i don't think there are too many mysteries left regarding their behavior, but at the same time each is unique with their signature of perpetration

[Wind]

I cannot with good conscience support the death penalty as I see it as a barbaric practice.

I do however think like Aragorn, violence is always wrong except as a last resort - self-defence.

I think that some people are so vile that they don't deserve to live, but it's just better to lock them up.

[Octopus Garden]

Hi! Libertarian left here. Pleased to meet you!

[Chris]

https://pjmedia.com/columns/victor-davis-hanson/2020/07/09/antifa-in-tears-the-fragility-of-the-woke-n622310

Antifa in Tears: The Fragility of the Woke

BY VICTOR DAVIS HANSON JUL 09, 2020 12:10 AM EST

A TikTok video that recently went viral on social media showed a recent Harvard graduate threatening to stab anyone who said, “all lives matter.” In her melodrama, she tried to sound intimidating with her histrionics.


A TikTok video that recently went viral on social media showed a recent Harvard graduate threatening to stab anyone who said, “all lives matter.” In her melodrama, she tried to sound intimidating with her histrionics.


She won a huge audience as she intended. But her video also came to the attention of the company that was going to give her an internship later this summer, Deloitte, which decided it didn’t want to add an intern who threatened to kill strangers who said something she didn’t like.

This wouldn’t have been much of a story. But then the narcissistic Harvard alum posted a very different video — one that showed her weeping in a near-fetal position.

She fought back tears while complaining how unfair the world had been to her. Her initial TikTok post had earned cruel pushback from the social media jungle she had courted. Deloitte, she sobbed, was mean and hurtful. And she wanted the world to share her pain.

The Harvard grad instantly became an unwitting poster girl for the current protest movement and the violence that has accompanied it. What turns off millions of Americans about the statue toppling, the looting, the threats, and the screaming in the faces of police is the schizophrenic behavior of so many of the would-be revolutionaries.

On one hand, those toppling statues or canceling their own careers on the internet pose as vicious Maoists — the hard-core shock troops of the revolution. Their brand is vile profanity, taunts to police, firebombs, and spray paint.

In homage to Italy’s blackshirts of the past, they wear black hoodies, don makeshift helmets, and strap on ad hoc protective padding — part lacrosse attire, part cinematic Road Warrior costume.

The televised stereotype of the antifa activist is a physically unimpressive but violent-talking revolutionary. He seems to strut in laid-back, blue-city Minneapolis but wisely avoids the suburbs and small towns of the nation’s red states. He spits at police when standing beside fellow agitators but would never do that when alone confronting an autoworker or welder.

When police march against the antifa crowd and their appendages in order to clear the streets, they often scream like preteens, objecting to mean officers who dare to cross them.

When arrested, the trash talkers are usually terrified of being jailed or of having an arrest on their records.

Federal authorities are currently searching thousands of videos to ferret out looters, arsonists, and assailants. Perpetrators who are caught are shocked that the evidence that they once posted online in triumphant braggadocio is now being used to charge them with felonies.

What is going on?

Black Lives Matter, antifa, and their large numbers of imitators and loosely-organized wannabes are mostly made up of middle-class youth, often either students or graduates. They deem themselves the brains of the rioting, the most woke of the demonstrators, the most sophisticated of the iconoclasts. In truth, they are also the most paranoid about being charged or being hurt.

Black Lives Matter, antifa, and their large numbers of imitators and loosely-organized wannabes are mostly made up of middle-class youth, often either students or graduates. They deem themselves the brains of the rioting, the most woke of the demonstrators, the most sophisticated of the iconoclasts. In truth, they are also the most paranoid about being charged or being hurt.


What explains the passive-aggressive nature of these protesters and rioters?

Many no doubt are indebted, with large, unpaid student loans. Few seem in a hurry to get up at 6 a.m. each day to go to work to service loans that would take years to pay in full.

While some of those arrested are professionals, many are not. Few seem to be earning the sort of income that would allow them to marry, have children, pay off student loan debt, buy a home, and purchase a new car.

Historically, the tips of the spears of cultural revolutions are accustomed to comfort. But they grow angry when they realize that they will never become securely comfortable.

In today’s high-priced American cities, especially on the globalized coasts, it’s increasingly difficult for recent college graduates to find a job that will allow for upward mobility.

The protestors are especially cognizant that their 20s are nothing like what they believe to have been the salad days of their parents and grandparents — who did not incur much debt, bought affordable homes, had families, and were able to save money.

Earlier generations went to college mainly to become educated and develop marketable skills. They weren’t very interested in ethnic and gender “studies” courses, ranting professors, and woke administrators. For the students of the 1960s who were, protesting was a side dish to a good investment in an affordable college degree that would pay off later.

But when such pathways are blocked, beware.

The woke but godless, the arrogant but ignorant, the violent but physically unimpressive, the degreed but poorly educated, the broke but acquisitive, the ambitious but stalled — these are history’s ingredients of riot and revolution.

Victor Davis Hanson is a classicist and historian at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and the author, most recently, of “The Father of Us All: War and History, Ancient and Modern” You can reach him by e-mailing author@victorhanson.com.

[Emil El Zapato]

That's a tough decision, but probably a correct one. She learned a lesson and in the long run probably would not have been satisfied with the culture of the company. A win/win for society.

The Hoover Institute does a lot of hoovering

[Dreamtimer]

Antifa has been given a whole lotta power and recognition by folks on the right. It was a nothing burger until Trump started chanting the name. Almost nobody in America heard of or cared about it until Trump started calling its name.

It's still not really an organization. It has no central entity. It has no headquarters. It has no leader.

It's an awesome boogyman for the right which, in America, loves the fear mongering. It gets them votes.

[Chris]

Antifa has been given a whole lotta power and recognition by folks on the right. It was a nothing burger until Trump started chanting the name. Almost nobody in America heard of or cared about it until Trump started calling its name.

It's still not really an organization. It has no central entity. It has no headquarters. It has no leader.

It's an awesome boogyman for the right which, in America, loves the fear mongering. It gets them votes.

Just because you can't see the leadership or the organisational structure, doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Wind]

Nah. Antifa isn't organized at all, it's just mostly an ideology. A very scattered group like the Anonymous.

[Elen]

Hi! Libertarian left here. Pleased to meet you!

I am "in the middle of the road" and call it "Common Sense". And I reserve the right to stay (t)here, imperfections don't bother me from (t)here. :goodbad::magic:

[Chris]

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/position-statement/

Position Statement

Nothing moves and nothing wants to move, or even think about moving, under the punishing heat-dome. For the moment, the sore beset nation stews in a dreadful stillness. The mysterious consensus of the BLM mob has hit the “pause” button on street tantrums, though plenty of damage has been done to businesses, personal lives, undefended monuments, and the public interest. Each day is another frightful step in the creep toward mass default as rents, mortgages, car loans, insurance premiums, electric bills, business debts, and other common obligations go unpaid. It’s like one of those eerie interludes on a battlefield when forces stop to gather their wounded and reassess their positions.

Perhaps you, like me, are skeptical of the news reports about the surge in Covid-19 cases — or, more to the point, what it actually means. Cases may be surging, but deaths are way down. Media megaphones such as CNN and The New York Times eagerly retail maximum hysteria to provoke renewed business lock-downs, ensuring further destruction to the old service economy and, more importantly, to disparage Mr. Trump. I wonder if the virus is, in fact, close to burning itself out and the surge in cases signifies that it will soon run out of new victims. How many asymptomatic carriers are out there? We just don’t know, but by August we’ll have an idea.

It’s certainly in the interest of the Woke Resistance and its inquisitors in the Woke media to keep the volume up on Covid-19 hysteria. It’s crucial to their strategy of forcing a vote-by-mail system that would easily invite voter fraud. It also provides a cover for keeping their mummified lead candidate, Joe Biden, moldering silently in his basement like the ghost of Hubert Humphrey, as well as an excuse to avoid a real convention in Milwaukee, which would force Mr. Biden to step up and speak before a huge, live audience. Imagine the mortification.

Just as I’m unconvinced about the meaning of the Covid-19 surge, I don’t buy the polls that show Mr. Biden ten points up on Mr. Trump. I suspect many actual voters were not pleased by the June reign of terror unleashed by Democratic mayors and governors, and did not fail to notice exactly how all that went down. And it is well-known now, four years after the last election and its janky polling, that many voters won’t reveal their true intentions to pollsters — fearing the vilification they’d invite.

I’ve gotten a lot of letters and comments lately condemning my failure to go all-out against Mr. Trump. So, I’ll state my current position plainly: I didn’t vote for him last time, but I would vote for him this time to keep the Democratic Party out of power. There’s a lot to not love about Mr. Trump in his persona and manner. There’s a great deal more to fear about the prospect of Democratic Party control of government. Their enmity to free speech cannot be doubted after a decade of promoting cancel culture. Their appetite for coercion is at odds with the Bill of Rights. Their bad faith and dishonesty have been on display through all the concocted melodramas of RussiaGate and its offshoots. Their economic program is a mashup of all the failed central planning regimes from the bygone 20th century and is wholly inconsistent with the new imperatives to downscale and re-localize the real productive activities of daily life in this country.

Beyond Mr. Trump’s deformities of personal presentation, I am more in favor with the blunt outlines of his policies. I’m for strict control of the nations borders and frankly for reduced immigration. Globalism is clearly winding down and Mr. Trump’s drive to produce more of what we need here in America is in step with that reality. Mr. Trump has been careful to avoid new foreign misadventures — though the military establishment and their pals in the war industries have obstructed the president’s will to quit the old adventures still being prosecuted in places across the Middle East and West Asia. I suspect Mr. Trump might have accomplished more in the nation’s interest if he hadn’t been hounded, harried, and sabotaged by the ceaseless bad faith hostilities of his opponents since Nov 3, 2016.

I’m not confident about Mr. Trump’s management of the nation’s financial quandaries, and especially the racking-up of epic new debt, but there’s plenty of evidence that the Democratic Party would do a lot worse in terms of spending money that doesn’t exist and destroying what’s left of the country’s productive capacity, along with what remains of the middle class. I believe anybody who has managed to stay sane through the travails of the past four years cannot fail to see that the clinically incompetent Joe Biden is an obvious stalking horse for something more sinister. I think we will learn what that is before much longer.

[Chris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=WX2B4Qy8wjw&feature=emb_logo


http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2020/08/transcript-of-interview-on-continuum.html#more

Transcript of Interview on Continuum with Keith Woods

Welcome to the show today. I am delighted to be joined by Dmitry Orlov, who is a Russian-American writer. He has written several books on collapse and technology. Delighted to be joined by you Mr. Orlov. If you’d like to introduce your work to the audience for anyone unfamiliar, that’d be great.

A: Well, first of all it’s great to be on your show. Thank you for inviting me.

I’m no longer a neophyte because I’ve been doing it for a long time, but writing about collapse is not really my profession. I had a career before that, in computer engineering, and then high-energy physics, then e-commerce, and internet security, media conversion, things like that, and eventually I just gave up on all of this corporate stuff because I realized that it wasn’t really heading in any direction I liked. And I started writing on what I thought would happen to the United States based on what I observed happening to the Soviet Union and Russia in the late 80s and early 90s, because I thought that the US would pretty much collapse.

I started doing that about a dozen years ago and strangely enough I got a pretty good reception to start with.

Now there are basically two types of people whom I encounter: the ones who just basically scream and run away – I suppose they’re the majority – and then there’s also people who’ve been following me, or people who are realizing that I’ve been making valid points all along. And so I have quite a following at this point, and I write a couple of articles a month, mostly on current affairs and analysis, and that’s been going pretty well and keeping me busy, not so much writing, but doing the research for the writing. That’s a full-time job at this point. And so that’s where I am today.

Q: Obviously, the events of the last few months in the US, I think I’ve heard the idea of collapse, or the idea of a failed state, enter more and more into people’s consciousness, but when you look at the US now and especially the racial, ethnic tensions we’ve seen during the last few months – does this look to you like a society that’s in a fairly advanced stage of collapse now, or do you think that the US empire can still keep on traveling for a few years to come yet?

A: It’s very hard to predict what the timing of this would be. As far as race tensions in the US, this is nothing new. The worst race riot of all time happened about a hundred years ago; people are forgetting that. Entire sections of towns were completely burnt out, large numbers of people made homeless. That was a very large race riot. There were race riots after that in various places, in Chicago and Los Angeles and elsewhere. This is more or less a repetitive process. Right now lots of people are saying that ‘black lives matter.” It’s a slogan, and if you look at history – and this is not a judgment on my part; this is an observation – black lives seem to matter every 20 or 30 years.

The blacks in the United States are political pawns. They’re basically manipulated by the Democratic establishment, and they are periodically unleashed on the public. They’re kept at boiling point by a number of policies that destroy black families, that imprison black men, that basically deprive black kids of any meaningful education. All of this makes them useful as pawns. They’re basically going to start rebelling and looting and causing mayhem whenever somebody pulls the trigger within the Democratic establishment and that’s what’s happening this year. The pawns have been deployed in order to unseat Donald Trump because the Democrats are so desperate. They’re incredibly desperate: this is their final gasp. They have a candidate who is absolutely senile, who can’t string a sentence together. And so this is a sign of desperation. I don’t think it immediately translates into the United States collapsing; I think that has to do with much longer term trends that have been in the works for generations and that are at this point unstoppable – not that they’ve ever been stoppable; I’ve never claimed that they were. But at this point most thoughtful commentators and analysts would say that these processes will simply run their course.

Q: Would you say that the source of collapse is primarily financial?

A: Well, I wrote about this quite a bit. I wrote a book, The Five Stages of Collapse, where I teased collapse as a process into stages: financial, commercial, political, social and cultural, showing examples of societies, doing case studies of societies that pass through or were able to arrest collapse at each one of these stages.

The sequence makes sense, because the finance basically has to do with promises people make to each other. These promises have to be backed up by a realistic notion of what can be achieved in terms, for instance, of debt repayment. The function of finance is to finance productive activity, and [if] finance decides that there is [to be] no financing because debts would not be repaid, then that curtails commercial activity. Factories don’t get built; products don’t get shipped, etc., which causes the physical economy of goods and services to shrink, causing tax revenues to plummet, and that hamstrings government which can no longer spend the way they are accustomed to spending. And that leads to political paralysis and collapse, and once the political realm dissolves then social institutions come under stress and often fail because at that point the government can’t provide for the people, so it’s a question of charitable groups and things like religious organizations that are not up to the task usually.

And then the final bastion is the family. Often that fails as well because of stress. Families dissolve and culture crumbles. The final stage of cultural collapse is where people stop looking like people, stop resembling people: they become more like animals. And that’s the final stage of collapse, after which you don’t really have anything you could call humanity any more. You just basically have these semi-feral humans running around. I’ve even done one case study of a society that reached that point, where esteemed scholars, anthropologists – one anthropologist in particular – decided that such societies should be completely disbanded: the individuals have no business being together. They have to be broken apart, split apart, because at that point what culture remains is pathological.

Now the United States, it turns out, is following this collapse sequence backwards. This is a realization that I had quite recently: [the US] started with cultural collapse.

Basically, the process that has been unfolding in the United States since the late 50s and throughout the 60s has dismembered extended families, and then later on destroyed nuclear families as well, so that out of wedlock births are now quite dominant and the number of children, especially in black families, who grow up fatherless is staggeringly huge. That basically indicates that the culture has failed. There is no longer a real human culture; there’s just a commercial culture of consumerism. Consumers, who pay attention to prosumers and influencers and media. The only function they have is deciding what to consume until the money runs out, at which point they’re just basically cut loose – completely cut loose, cut adrift.

Society doesn’t really have any viable functions any more. In some places the church is still dominant and plays a large role, but that is really the only strong social function that exists.

[Regarding] government, we can see huge dysfunction in the political sphere. Basically, the entire country is splitting up into red and blue zones which are more or less at war with each other already, although it’s not a shooting war in a lot of places yet, but it could very well evolve into one.

Commerce has devolved to a point where the United States is not self-sufficient in most manufactured products, and most of what it produces is ephemera like software and media, and maybe some pharmaceuticals that are incredibly over-priced; and a lot of agricultural products. So it’s basically like a plantation economy as far as the world is concerned. It no longer has a viable industrial sector.

And then financially it’s basically a black hole, because what it does is it prints money. It lends it out mostly to insiders. There’s no expectation that these debts that are generated will ever be repaid, and eventually these debts are converted into weird zombie financial instruments that sit on the books of weird zombie companies that are forever kept out of bankruptcy by printing money again and lending it out. So there’s no pretense any more that finance has anything to do with actually estimating risk and deciding when to lend based on the projected ability to repay, because it’s not expected that anybody at any level will ever repay anything.

So it’s just the printing press running loose, and the entire economy of the United States now depends on that printing press. The moment it turns out that printing one more dollar doesn’t produce any value at all but actually produces negative value to the economy it’s pretty much over, the whole game is over.

When that will happen is very difficult to time but it’s going to be an event; it’s not going to be a process. One day people will wake up and realize that the Federal Reserve printing another hundred trillion dollars is not going to move the economy forward one inch, and it is at that point that the whole thing will be declared over.

So that’s what I’m seeing happening now.

Q: That’s interesting that you think the final stage has already happened because it would suggest…I mean, you’ve observed the collapse of the Soviet Union, but it seems like as bad as that was, at least there was still a family unit underneath. There was a homogenous society and so it didn’t take a lot to transition into a kind of coherent Russian state. But then if you look at the US, and the fact that there is cultural collapse, and all of these tensions among classes, among races…in a very multi-ethnic society.

I guess the question is then, if the US is faced with that kind of collapse, is there any reason to believe that the United States as an entity would even survive that in terms of its territorial integrity. In other words, would you be looking at balkanization and the collapse of the US as a country?

A: There’s no reason to believe that the United States will continue to exist once the states are no longer united. Given the politics of today, again, the separation into the red and blue zones which are hostile to each other on every level, it’s really hard to say that the United States are united. Again: they’re united by the Federal Reserve’s printing press. Once the US dollar fails there’s nothing to hold the states together, and there’s nothing to hold each individual state together. There’s no reason to continue having this system which basically redistributes printed money – printed basically out of nothing – and so there is no reason to think that this political entity will abide.

Now, on the ethnic level, there are still large areas – mostly rural at this point – where the older sort of stratum of Anglo-German society holds together, and so it may be that there are large swaths of land patrolled by heavily armed locals that are still relatively safe and relatively productive. The question is will they be able to actually survive without access to the coasts and to the ports, because the United States no longer produces the spare parts it needs to keep plant and equipment running. All of that stuff is imported now, mostly from China, and so there’s no reason to expect that the United States will be able to re-industrialize under these conditions because the [country lacks the] core competencies needed to re-industrialize. The engineers no longer exist; they all went to law and finance a long time ago, and other professions that basically have to do with people swindling each other, so there’s no reason to expect that sort of a rebirth.

As far as the cities [are concerned], it’s really unclear what function they serve. The coronavirus shutdowns have proven that cities at this point don’t serve any vital function at all. They could just be disbanded. They could be abandoned. So it’s really hard to see what new cohesive thing could emerge from this process.

Q: Another question that’s raised then in the wake of a potential collapse of the US is that the US is a global hegemon at present. The end of this order would be the end of the order that we have had since the end of the Second World War. So the question is, what springs up in that vacuum of power? Could you envision a kind of multipolar world, lacking one hegemon, or do you think that China or Russia – or China and Russia combined – will just immediately fill that vacuum?

A: I don’t think that Russia and China are particularly interested in that. The mode in which Russia operates is building regional organizations with its Eurasian partners. It’s not so much multilateralism as bilateralism. They’re basically one-to-one deals with various countries. They are also frameworks that take time to take hold. There’s a strong relationship with China – with Russia and China – but definitely I don’t think anybody wants to step in and do what the United States has been pretending to do, which is in effect bankrupting itself by ineffectual military spending.

The fact that the United States has troops stationed all over the place, and the fact that it outspends everyone in dollar terms is neither here nor there: it just doesn’t mean anything because [the US] is not really capable of it any more. Look what happened when the Iranians responded to the murder of one of their generals by the Americans by just blasting rockets at a couple of military bases in Iraq: nothing. There was no response. The Americans just took it.

That’s been the pattern that’s been established for a long time. The Americans get into harm’s way but then they don’t do anything. They haven’t had a military success pretty much forever. The entire military establishment in the US is basically a money sponge: it’s very expensive but it’s not very good. Their planes don’t fly very well and there are a lot of issues with just about every part of it. The objective is not to defend the nation, because nobody is attacking the nation. The objective is to basically absorb as much money as possible and distribute it amongst a small group of insiders.

So if you look at defense spending parity between, say, Russia and the United States, Russia gets ten times more for each dollar spent than the United States, so the Russian military has been growing stronger and Russia has been cutting its defense spending the entire time, while the United States has been growing weaker and keeps increasing its military spending. Those trends are unmistakable. So the idea that the US is still a global hegemon based on its military prowess is, I think, entirely misguided.

I think the only thing that keeps the United States in the news around the world at this point is the Federal Reserve printing press and the US dollar. That’s it. Nothing else.

Q: There was another story leaked yesterday of supposed Russian interference. This time it was in the UK, where the UK Foreign Secretary said that the UK has strong reason to believe that Russia leaked documents in the run-up to the last election to try and help the Labour Party.

I’m just curious because this Russiagate thing is just becoming a trope now. It’s used again and again for anything the establishment is opposed to in the West. Even Tulsi Gabbard was accused of being a Russian agent. It’s just thrown around now; it means nothing.

But I’m curious as to what the perception is [inside] Russia, of all the hostility that’s suddenly directed towards them from the West, and more generally, the perception by Russians of the liberal West and many of the problems that we’re facing in the West now.

A: Well, on the one hand the news coverage in Russia that one sees, the news coverage of the West, of what’s going on in the UK and in the United States, is very moderate. It’s factual; it’s moderate; it’s not tendentious as far as my appraisal of it [is concerned]. But it’s ghastly. I mean, Russians look at this and think Oh my god, why did we ever think that these people were worth paying attention to? Why did we ever think that they matter?

So there’s that understanding. As far as accusations randomly lobbed in the general direction of Russia for this and that, most people in Russia now know what “highly likely” means in English. People throw that around. The word “fake” has penetrated the Russian language, specifically in reference to most things coming from the West. “Fake news” is thrown around a lot. In general, it’s basically Comedy Hour material at this point. There’s nothing serious about it. It’s even difficult to continue the conversation about it because people are just so sick of it. “Oh yeah…fake news…highly likely…blah blah blah. Whatever.”

Below that, if you scratch the surface, the Russians are convinced that truth is on their side, and truth makes them invincible. They’re absolutely convinced of that. The other side is just lying, so it doesn’t matter what they say. We know they’re lying. They’re liars. And if they’re not lying, then the question becomes, when did they stop lying and why? What caused that conversion on the road to Damascus, that epiphany? Because we didn’t notice one.

Q: It’s quite interesting. You’ve also written a book called Shrinking The Technosphere which builds on a lot of ideas of Jacques Ellul, a similar analysis of technology as this sort of demiurge, or force of control. I think the way you describe it is as an ‘emergent force.’ I’m kind of curious: I’ve seen that Russia itself is investing a lot of resources into crypto-technology and into being prepared for the world’s moving towards crypto from fiat currency. I’m just curious as to how much you think that could change paradigms in terms of talking about a more multipolar world, a more decentralized system with more anonymity, [making it ] more difficult for central governments to trace financial transactions and control people by financial means? Just how significant do you think the innovations in crypto will be?

A: Crypto is just basically a bit of software. Bitcoin is phenomenally idiotic because it’s a horrendous waste of energy. It is just the stupidest invention in the world based on its energy requirements. The anonymity it grants is mostly used for all kinds of parasitism and swindles and theft of various kinds, extortion schemes. There’s nothing good about that, but you know, Blockchain is just an algorithm that has applications – some rather good applications - in some areas. In some areas such as finance, perhaps not.

Now as far as what is going on in Russia [is concerned] a lot of effort is being expended in streamlining electronic (internet) systems, to eliminate bureaucracy. Traditionally, Russia has been very paper-heavy, lots and lots of pieces of paper with stamps and signatures needed for every last thing. That’s being done away with in a great hurry. So now it’s possible to carry out any kind of project with just a cell phone or an iPad or something like that. Everything is shifting to a model where it’s all done via websites and internet servers, so that’s a very positive development.

Russia just changed its tax policy such that it has perhaps the most forgiving tax regime for IT companies anywhere in the world, and given the fact that it already has a lot of the best talent in IT, it is probably going to become a major hub for international software development. It’ll probably take a way some of the thunder from places like Ireland that have been in the lead in this category. And so that’s a positive development for Russia.

Q: Just as that ties into your work on collapse, the reliance that we have on technological systems for so much now, does that add to, or is it a compounding factor in how devastating the collapse of a modern society would be now? If these technological systems start to go down, would it have a compound effect in terms of collapse?

A: Well, yes. The elimination of fallback strategies is generally a very dangerous thing. So if you look at Russia, for instance, and Russia’s decision to go all-in on these modernized infrastructure systems, it starts with base technologies such as oil, gas, coal and nuclear, which generate the energy. The mining and manufacturing processes that provide for self-sufficiency in all of the critical pieces of infrastructure either directly or through trusted partners such as China. And it goes from there. They built up an electric grid which is self-sufficient and which uses parts manufactured within Russia. They’re starting to move in the direction of providing their own operating systems. There is one that is an Android replacement, Linux-based, that’s been in the works. They may share that project, or may be in the process of sharing that project with China because of all the madness surrounding Huawei sanctions. So that’s built from the ground up.

Now if you look at the United States, the United States produced a lot of relatively low-grade, useless light oil through fracking, but that has fallen apart. Nobody is financing all of that any more and it’s an overall waste of money and resources. There aren’t really any fallbacks.

And then there’s the environmentalist lobby which is eliminating pipelines and shutting down financing for energy projects unless they’re quote-unquote ‘green’ projects that use wind and solar. The problem with wind and solar is that the energy production from them is ragged; it’s unpredictable; it has nothing to do with demand. It has to do with the supply of wind and sunlight, and there’s no storage mechanism for storing large amounts of electricity that is anywhere near affordable, or that can be built up within the required timeframe.

So green technologies are an evolutionary dead end, at least at that scale, and so there is no plan. So for now everybody is running around depending on the internet being available all the time, but the foundation of it is the electric grid which hasn’t been upgraded in a long time in the United States. It depends on a large number of nuclear power plants, about 100 of which are quickly aging out. The competence, or the desire, to build new ones is missing, and the United States lacks the capacity, or the ability, to enrich uranium. They’ve delegated that to the Europeans, to the French, and to Russia. So twenty five percent of the light bulbs that are lit up in the United States historically has been thanks to MOX fuel, nuclear fuel, shipped to the United States from Russia. So if you look at all those dependencies and what that means, well, yes: that’s incredibly precarious. That sort of technology dependence is really bad for a nation that could at best, moving forward, be a heavily armed agrarian nation of little agrarian fiefdoms. So that’s not a positive, moving forward.

Q: You have written on peak oil. There was obviously…making the news recently was the Michael Moore documentary Planet of the Humans that put this issue into people’s consciousness, about the lack of effectiveness of green technologies that we’ve put all our faith in, and you’ve spoken to that. But the question is, what is the alternative, then, if we’re reaching peak oil and our energy requirements can’t be met, will it just be necessary for scaling-back of our consumption? You mentioned nuclear power. Is nuclear power a potential solution in the long run, or have we missed the boat on that one?

A: The only two countries that have the capacity to develop nuclear at anything like the speed needed are Russia and China.

The only country that actually has a shot at making nuclear energy generation safe in the long run is Russia because it’s pretty far along working on the closed nuclear cycle which will not produce high-level nuclear waste. It’ll burn all of it up. Everybody else has given up on that strategy. Russia is the only one, and so the others will at best have to wait their turn because the way Russia deals with nuclear installations around the world is [that] it basically builds the nuclear power plant. It trains locals to operate it. It signs contracts for all of the nuclear fuel for the entire life of the nuclear power plant or installation, which at this point could be over 100 years because they’ve learned to recycle nuclear installations.

Not every country in the world, certainly not anywhere in Europe or the United States, is willing to go along with that deal. Other countries such as Turkey, for instance, or Iran, or Egypt, are more than happy to enter into such a long-term agreement, but basically what that means is there is an umbilical cord from your country to Russia forever. So countries that cultivate an adversarial stance towards Russia do not stand a chance of getting such a contract signed, at least for the foreseeable future.

Q: That’s quite interesting. Would you say that in the coming century…when you think about some of these things, for example the collapse of the US as a hegemon and the kind of regionalism that Russia is cultivating, are we looking at the end of globalization as a process, the end of globalism in this century?

A: Well, I think so. I think what we’re seeing is the last dying echo of Western colonialism – because that’s really the model that’s been driving the whole thing. It’s the last dying gasp of the plantation economy, where you have old money hiring completely block-headed, interchangeable MBAs to manage projects around the world. It doesn’t matter where in the world they are. Paying military types to basically keep tabs on the local politicians to make sure that they don’t get too uppity and try to grab too much power for themselves. And that’s going to die. It’s been dying for a long time: it’s been dying back. This last surge of globalization which shipped factories from the West to other places in the world which had cheap energy and labor and low regulatory costs – that has run its course.

And so I think what the future holds is different countries going in different directions. Some developing and others un-developing, and some remaining pretty much as they are. I don’t expect any of this to very dramatically affect what’s happening in rural Cambodia or Laos, for instance, but other countries – Canada, for instance – might be very dramatically affected. It depends on where in the world they are, but there’s no globe: it only looks that way from outer space, from Earth orbit. But from the ground, on the ground, it doesn’t look like a globe; it looks like a patch of ground that is visible from you, encompassed by the horizon, which is about 15 nautical miles.

Q: For someone listening to this, [someone who] shares your pessimism in terms of where the West is going, I guess the question is what should someone that acknowledges that reality be doing in terms of is there a way to prepare best for what’s coming? Is there a best way to wean yourself off the elements of the system that will probably suffer the worst fate?

A: Well, people get by pretty well provided they can make themselves useful to each other. Not within some scheme where you go on some job board and look for an employer because those [jobs] will be pretty thin on the ground, I expect. But what you can do yourself for your immediate neighbors, for people you can make contact with. And a lot of those skills are pretty basic.

So in the more promising places in the world - promising from the point of view of surviving what’s coming – people cultivate these habits, so for instance there’s no conceivable reason that in Russia right now I should be growing potatoes…except I am, and so are most other people. It’s one of those things that you never want to stop being able to do, like there’s no question that you will abandon your ability to grow potatoes even though I could drive to the supermarket and buy all the potatoes I could ever want, and more, for not very much money. It’s not about that. Similarly, people know how to build log cabins; people know how to put stoves together out of brick. You know, there’s a myriad things like that that people know how to do. They will keep old cars running because they can be repaired using hand tools without hooking them up to a computer. There are lots and lots of adaptations like that that people around the world cultivate in order to prepare for hard times because they know from their experience that the hard times are coming. They know that. It’s not a question of whether, it’s a question of when. Nobody knows when, and so the time to practice is now.

Now there are people in the West who think that the gravy train they’ve been on will go on forever, and that’s not a fact, that’s not true. So there are a lot of humble occupations that people could start learning for, in order to make themselves useful when the time comes.

Q: What tends to happen…people’s beliefs in a time of collapse… I remember reading John Michael Greer predicting that the Baby Boomers in the US would start suicide cults at the late stage of collapse, and definitely some of the movements we’re seeing in the West today – BLM [for instance] – seem to resemble religious cults in their orientation. But I’m curious: for a society that’s really bought into the religion of progress and faith and optimism, what starts to happen when things turn sour? Will we see a new religiousness, and if so, what would that look like?

A: In some places there will be a new religiousness. Different populations are more or less susceptible to entering into cults. There was a lot of penetration of various cults into Russia around the time of the Soviet collapse in the 90s, and there was quite a period of time when the authorities had to rush around and put out these fires, and eliminate some of the nastier cults. Some of them are still around. It’s a nasty problem to have to deal with. And so, yes, hopelessness breeds that sort of wishful thinking, and people who show up and sell you some sort of a dream, no matter how preposterous, fill that vacuum of hope. So we can expect plenty of that.

Q: But Russia itself seems to have rebounded very well, and quite rapidly, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It’s quite something to see the level of religiousness, and how quickly it turned from an atheist society to really one of the only traditional Christian societies in the world.

Do you think in terms, again, of just looking at the West’s trajectory, it is inevitable that there would be a return to traditional society? In other words, when you lose the power of the centralized state is it a necessary process that the more organic orders like religiosity and ethnic communities spring up in that vacuum?

A: I wouldn’t exaggerate that because there are things that only work in Russia. Russian things tend to only work in Russia; Chinese things tend to only work in China, and it’s useless to try to copy them because, for instance, the incredible wealth of Orthodox Christian tradition that Russia never lost is what provided for this revival. It’s not something that was done from scratch. It basically had to do with a living tradition that was never extinguished, coming into its own again, and therefore it happened more or less automatically, and perhaps even effortlessly. I wouldn’t say that anything like that couldn’t possibly happen in any of the Catholic countries or any of the Protestant countries; it’s just not something organic to those countries.

Q: Just another question related to what comes after all of this, what comes after progress. In terms of population growth we’re on a fairly steep curve. I think the projection for the end of the century is something like 11 billion. Without peak oil, and without the huge surplus of energy we’ve been given - I think 97 percent of agriculture production in the US is from fossil fuels – would we be expecting a sharp decrease in that? I mean, presumably if there was a collapse of industrial civilization there’s a huge surplus population of young people growing in Africa; I think Nigeria’s population is scheduled to outpace the US by the middle of this century. Would we potentially be looking at near-devastating effects in terms of famine, in terms of population die-offs?

A: Well, I think there’ll be die-offs. I think for long periods of time in various parts of the world the death rate will exceed the birth rate, which is all it takes. That’s another exponential that societies tend to follow: they expand exponentially, then they contract exponentially.

In terms of looking at over-population overall, how is Nigeria relevant to Russia or Canada? Is it [relevant] at all? Are Russia and Canada overpopulated? Are they in any danger of being overpopulated? As far as hunger [is concerned], is there enough land, if tilled by hand, to feed let’s say ten times the Russian population? Well, yes. Where I’m sitting right now, I have my field; the neighbors have their fields, and around that we have tall grass that nobody even cuts for hay because there isn’t really the need. It’s fallow. So if this village where I am were to expand by a factor of 10, we would still have a lot of fallow land. And that’s not even touching the forest, which is huge. So I don’t think Russia has an overpopulation problem. Russia has an under-population problem.

You could make the point that, well…Russia’s okay, but then what about Bangladesh? Bangladesh has the same population as the entire Russian Federation and it is smaller than one of the smaller Russian regions, of which there are something over seventy. So what about Bangladesh? The answer is, well, Bangladesh isn’t Russia, is it, so what’s the topic of conversation? It’s pointless to talk about global population, absolutely pointless, because again, you’re considering a fictional entity called ‘the globe’, whereas where you’re sitting can observe a tiny fraction of it and you will never meet any of those people. You will probably never travel outside of a few countries that are safe to visit. So it’s pointless to talk about.

Q: Right. And in terms of discourse I guess this is where the global element comes into it, especially in recent years. A lot of people talk about it and often tie this into collapse, a global sort of ecological collapse tied into global warming that will eventually reach a precipice and potentially destroy the Anthropocene. Obviously you don’t take those kinds of projections very seriously, do you?

A: Well, those projections are based on models that… the more I’ve looked into it, the more I became convinced that it’s all just – not to put too fine a point on it – bullshit. It’s political bullshit. There’s no real credible science behind any of it. It’s all just an effort to eke out some kind of economic advantage.

Q: That’s quite interesting. Is that a popular belief in Russia, or is it quite a dissident belief there as well?

A: Well, in Russia there isn’t any mechanism for making everybody believe some outlandish thing like there is in the West. People tend to listen to you and say yeah, you sound like you know what you’re talking about, but do you? And so they look at weather trends and listen to a lot of scientists. Russian scientists are also an unruly bunch. There isn’t this kind of Western groupthink where either you believe in global warming and cataclysmic climate change or you are shit out of luck and you’ve just been fired. There isn’t that.

So that for instance there are Russian scientists who are puzzled by the fact that the global ocean has been warming. That’s been going on for a few decades now, and it’s been warming all the way through, starting from the bottom, great depths. And it turns out that the entire planet is warming up a little bit. There’s something similar to a nuclear reactor; it is [poorly understood], but it’s hiding deep in the molten magma of the earth’s core and it seems to have kicked up a notch. Now it probably fluctuates, goes up and down, but that may explain a bit of the warming. And then on the other hand it counteracts a tendency which is that the sun is approaching a major solar minimum, which would actually make the earth cooler. And because the ocean is warming a lot more CO2 is percolating from the ocean waters – massively more than any industrial activity could produce; just orders of magnitude higher. So that may have something to do with the greenhouse effect kicking up a little bit, but as far as cataclysms [are concerned] I think the biggest risk we run is the onset of the next ice age because we’re overdue for one. And there are plenty of scientists who believe that.

Q: It’s quite interesting. We’re coming up to an hour, so I’ll just finish with this. A lot of work has been done in terms of forecasts and political trends. I’m not familiar with the work of Peter Turchin but he predicts that the 2020s would be the most polarized decade in a century. We’ve seen things this year that might have been unimaginable just a couple of years ago. So I’m curious: from your perspective, looking ahead for the next decade, what do you think we should expect to see in the next ten years? Will this be the start of the kind of collapse you’re talking about and what can we expect to see in terms of social and political ramifications?

A: Well, I predicted that the United States would collapse in the foreseeable future. Sometime around 1996 I realized that that was going to happen [but] I kept quiet about it for quite a while and then early this century I started thinking about publishing about it, and actually started doing it now, 20 years into the new century.

This notion that the United States is going to collapse is not the least bit outlandish. A lot of people are saying the same thing. So to that extent, I am vindicated and I expect that I will be fully vindicated while I’m still alive, definitely. In fact I’m planning to move on to doing something else with my time once the United States does collapse because the subject matter will be effectively tapped out as far as I’m concerned.

Q: All right. It’s been a fascinating interview. If you’d just like to finish off by promoting your work, where people can find your website, anything like that. Please go ahead.

A: Yes, it’s the main website, off which everything branches out is ClubOrlov.blogspot.com. And I publish for subscribers only on SubscribeStar and Patreon. I publish a couple of articles every month. [I have a] pretty large readership so I welcome people to join me.

Q: All right. That’s excellent. I recommend your books as well. They’re fantastic reading and I definitely think those kinds of topics are becoming increasingly relevant, and people are looking for relevant materials.

It was great to have you on, and again I thank you for joining me. Thank you very much.

[Emil El Zapato]

I'm here today as neither a Roman, friend, or a countryman to make a concession to reality as it is. I'll make it short and not so sweet:

A number of notable scientists have speculated that we are at a tipping point of survival. And no, none of the usual suspects are in question. Whether global change, plague, nuclear holocaust, immigration, mail-in voting or whatever one's personal demons tells them it is. It is a great unknown what has rendered an apparent Universe devoid of advanced life. My simple thought, question really, is we may well have experienced this play, the occurrence of societal demise to total destruction, perhaps multiple times in the distant past. (5 is a nice round number) :)

The ancient gods that produced all the great edifices found everywhere on our planet are they themselves nowhere to be found. Why? I say because they destroyed themselves in moments of desperation. Desperation wrought by the 'nobodys' that had always obsequiously deferred to their power, superiority, their godliness ... until, their exploitation became so ostentatious that it was no longer functional for civilization.

It has for the count of time been the last resort for the damned, those that recognize that their value is used up, to pull the edifices down with them as they head for the door. I think this is happening as we speak. The gods are falling and they don't like it, they still fight but the countdown has started. All the nobody has to do is feel around themselves to sense the shaking of the foundations of civilization as they have been for these last few thousands of years. But it has been like this for countless thousands of years, as long as the human has walked this earth, it possessed the buried inclination for self-destruction.

Will we outlast it? One can only hope that the last twenty millenia has imbued us with some level of wisdom and insight. Even more critically, foresight. I think so.

[Wind]

Very good thoughts and questions you present NAP.

I am a bit pessimistic about the current situation, but also always in my heart lies the secret optimism and belief in the goodness of all human beings and as long there is life, there is hope too. Note that life doesn't end in death either, but in general we talk about life here on Earth, in this physical form and we are not only focused on our survival, but in a life worth living too. We want to thrive!

If whatever cataclysm brings us down to our knees as a civilization again, then we certainly have brought it upon ourselves.

Earth will always survive, but society as it is would not continue in it's current insane form which is based on greed and lust for power. There may be a lesser amount of people who will have to start all over again. Will all of this "progress" be a waste and will the people of the future remember and know the wisdoms that have been preserved until now? We hardly even remember and know the wisdoms of the ancients and we know almost nothing of their connection to spirit.

It would seem that humanity (often I don't even want to call myself a homo sapiens) always is doomed to self-destruction because of our ignorance and arrogance. The modern man and especially the modern materialist scientist thinks that they have conquered the world and know the truth. Yet they don't even know themselves! What constitutes a man? As the Oracle of Delphi said; "Know thyself!"

I read somewhere that the Age of Aquarius would start around 2025 and that would bring a lot of technical advancements. Yet the problem still remains, humanity lacks the wisdom to handle such things. I truly hope that we can still somehow find a peaceful way towards (r)evolution and not let the demons run amok.

"If the infinite had not desired man to be wise, he would not have bestowed upon him the faculty of knowing."

~ Manly P. Hall


"Pluto will briefly enter Aquarius in 2023, and re-enter in 2024, staying there until 2044. As you know from previous articles, this will be the “Spring” of the 21st century, when collectively we shall awaken from the “Winter” of 2000-2025, and see the growth of what this coming century is all about. It will certainly be a welcome change from the barrenness of what has been and is, and will be a period where much that is good will be redeemed from the wreckage of the destroyed failed systems we presently live within.

During that season of 2025-2050, Pluto will reawaken the seeds of life-light that humanity is in its collective nature, and we shall see things not dreamed of in hundreds, if not thousands, of years. The collective will become aware of things that up to now have been revolutionary ideas and ideals dreamed and revealed by the trailblazers who have tuned into the Uranian and Neptunian patterns.

As befits the qualities of Aquarius (and coincidentally, the Dwapara Yuga), new forms will show us new ways of being alive and using the miraculous electro-magnetic principles of creation to bring forth a much more effective and loving way of being Spirits in this material world. We will re-discover miracles of how the natural world works, and find solutions to everything that plagues humanity.

The workings of these 3 planets are preparing us for an era to come, as different from our present mechanistic collective delusion as we are from the inquisitors of the 15th century. On a final note, I can definitely tell you that the long-term future of humanity is very bright, but don’t count on it looking anything like what we value or think today."

~ Robert Wilkinson

[Emil El Zapato]

good stuff... Robert Wilkinson has a vision ... :)

[Dreamtimer]

It has for the count of time been the last resort for the damned, those that recognize that their value is used up, to pull the edifices down with them as they head for the door. I think this is happening as we speak.

Makes me think of this book.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fd28hgpri8am2if.cloudfront.net%2Fb ook_images%2Fonix%2Fcvr9781982103149%2Feverything-trump-touches-dies-9781982103149_hr.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

We have had the ability since I was a child to prepare for energy crises, climate crises, and societal crises, and instead of dealing with them we went into denial while chasing short-term profits.

And so we are now woefully unprepared for the various imminent disasters which could befall us. We will suffer more than necessary because of our short-sightedness.

As Americans, we have set an example for the world. It hasn't ended up being a very good one, imo.

I like the Wilkinson quote a lot. I will hold it in my consciousness, and my heart.

[Gio]

U.S. politicians/protesters should take note ...

Belarus: Lukashenko announces constitutional changes,
hints at new elections | DW News



There's been a ninth night of protests in the Belarusyan capital calling for president Alexander Lukashenko to step down. That's despite signs from Lukashenko that he may be prepared to hold fresh elections under certain conditions. He announced that new elections could be held after Belarus adopts a new constitution - hours after telling a crowd of striking workers that elections would not be held "unless you kill me." His latest remarks mark a major change of tack for the besieged Lukashenko who has so far defied calls to give up power amid mass protests. But following his controversial re-election last week - and after 26 years under his rule, many Belarusyans want change now.

Aug 18, 2020

14:50 minutes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkxJSbHh6kM

[Emil El Zapato]

Those nobodys are truly courageous...

[Chris]

Absolutely fascinating interview with Dmitry Orlov, with topics that include collapse, the technosphere, advances in Nuclear Technology by Russia and China and how Russia was able to develop a Coronavirus vaccine so quickly by repurposing existing Soviet research.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2020/08/our-technologies-could-destroy-humanity.html#more

“Our technologies could destroy humanity”

Interview for Sputnik Germany
Part 1: https://de.sputniknews.com/interviews/20200822327765513-moderne-technologien-menschheit-bedrohung/

Part 2: https://de.sputniknews.com/interviews/20200823327765616-russlands-nuklear-technologie-vorteil/

Audio: https://soundcloud.com/sna-radio/our-technologies-could-destroy-humanity-dmitry-orlov-exclusive

Audio in German: https://soundcloud.com/sna-radio/unsere-technologien-konnten-die-menschheit-vernichten-dmitry-orlov-exklusiv

Sputnik: Mr Orlov, today we want to discuss your newest book, “Shrinking the Technosphere” (the German version), but before we start this I would like to deepen one of your answers in our first Sputnik Germany interview.

You said that the US central bank (the Federal Reserve) created new collateral in the banking ‘repo’ crisis of 2019. I would add two more questions: How would you define ‘collateral’? And you said that the US dollar would lose massive value in the next few months; what makes you so sure of it?

A: Well, to answer the first question, perhaps I misspoke in the first interview. The Fed did not so much create collateral as redeem US Treasuries and other debt instruments as collateral because banks stopped being so willing to honor them as collateral for overnight loans between banks, and so the Fed had to step in and provide these loans, provide the liquidity for these loans to the order of hundreds of billions of dollars of new money that was put into circulation—between banks, not into the broader economy.

So what that shows is that faith in US debt (and the US dollar consists of US debt at this point), that that faith was not as rock solid as some people would like to believe.

Now as far as the second question, why the dollar is likely to lose value: if you look at the value of a currency, you have to stack it up against productive capacity that underlies it. Money is a way of paying for goods and services. There has been a drastic increase in the supply of money. Right now the US government is on track to finance half of its budget using new debt—that is, basically the budget deficit is 50 percent of the federal budget, it’s on track to be that. But we don’t see any increase in the productive capacity of the United States to go with this vast increase in the money supply. In fact, the US economy has shrunk by a large amount, and it’s absolutely uncertain whether it will recover any time soon.

So basically we have more money, we have less stuff to buy with this money, and the result of that is that the money is going to be worth less. The logic of that is extremely simple.

Q: OK. Thank you very much. Now Mr. Orlov, your newest book is entitled “Shrinking the Technosphere.” So my questions: what is the technosphere, and why should it or will it shrink? What is your approach in this? And for our audience, you yourself can be seen as a technologist, as a computer scientist. What is your take on this whole topic?

A: Well, the term ‘technosphere’ was more or less coined by Vladimir Vernadsky, and he was a big proponent of the idea of the biosphere, of the living Earth as an organism, predating Lovelock’s Gaia and all of that. And then he coined the term ‘noosphere’, which was basically the knowledge, human knowledge, of the biosphere and of the physical realm that allowed us to extend it in various ways. He was a real scientific optimist: he thought that scientific knowledge would allow us to make drastic enhancements to the way life on earth is lived by humans and everyone.

And he also said that there is something called the technosphere, and that term has been in circulation ever since, to some extent. But then it turned out that the noosphere is really fractured and uncertain. It’s uncertain whether science is being used for good or evil: the prevalence of nuclear weapons, for instance, would show that the noosphere is not such a benevolent thing.

And instead what we see is the emergence of a technosphere, which is a single, integrated, global technological realm that is beyond anyone’s capacity to control it. That is, it is an entity that can be said to have a mind of its own, or at least an agenda of its own, and it has its own methods. It uses humans as opposed to humans using it. We do not have very much agency within it. All we can do is try to constrain it within our own lives.

Right now it is in a transition period. It tries to expand continually, but that expands the use of natural resources and that can’t go on forever because the amount of natural resources available is limited. Right now the technosphere is fracturing into zones of high technological development, and zones of low technological development, with buffer zones between these emergent parts of the technosphere, and this is a very interesting, very important process to recognize because it doesn’t really come down to political strategy or economic strategy or financial strategy. Because, as I said, the technosphere has an agenda of its own, and to understand what it is doing it is important to start thinking like a machine, which is not something that we normally do. And we also have to abandon every notion of morality, because the technosphere has absolutely no sense of morality at all. It can keep us happy, if that serves its interests, or it can kill us if that serves its interests. Or something in between.

Q: So if I understand you right, the current corona crisis where people are working at home offices and doing online conferences—this is not really the technology you are talking about? You give a broader view on this whole subject?

A: Well, the corona crisis has been very useful to the technosphere in terms of allowing it to grab more control, to seize control. Because one of the compulsions that the technosphere has is to forever increase its control of us humans. It doesn’t like living things; it prefers robots and machines. It prefers humans to act like machines to the greatest extent possible, so it tries to define technical functions for everyone and have everyone follow certain protocols. And of course it tries to keep tabs on everyone so as soon as someone steps out of line an alarm bell goes off somewhere, and some technician deals with the problem. Basically, to the technosphere humans are a technical problem to solve, and the way to solve it is by replacing human functions with automated functions—artificial intelligence, robots, etc.—to the greatest extent possible, and the remaining humans (because it’s impossible to completely eliminate the humans, especially human technicians) to control them as strictly as possible. And the coronavirus, by forcing people to keep distance between each other, and by relying on electronic communications techniques as opposed to face-to-face contact, has allowed the technosphere to be maximally disruptive of human relationships, and to cause us to behave like robots to the greatest extent possible, which is a win for it.

So it seized on this opportunity presented by a not particularly lethal virus to extend its sphere of control.

Q: Mr. Orlov, you wrote in your new book: “Most people are happy with high-tech replacement products, microwave ovens, smartphones, etc. Devices have reduced elegant handwriting to an outdated insignificance.”

So, if I may ask naively, what is the problem then?

A: Well, these things work for a while: a microwave oven works for, let’s say, three or five years, and then it stops working. And then what do you do? Run out and buy another one? What if you don’t have money? What if they don’t make any more microwave ovens because the resources for making microwave ovens have run out? What if your country can no longer import microwave ovens because it’s broke and the exporting countries won’t sell microwave ovens on credit? Well, then you’re stuck because you forgot how to cook, and then you starve. That’s the problem with technology: it’s like climbing a ladder while cutting out and burning the rungs of the ladder underneath you. You can only climb up; you cannot climb down. All you can do is fall down and die.

Q: Interesting answer; thank you very much. Another interesting part, you write: “Firstly, the question of exactly what is so efficient in these new facilities is hardly examined…” I will cut it a bit: basically what you wrote reminded me of Rudy Dutschke. He was a famous sociologist, political activist and student leader in the sixties in Western Germany. He was later shot to death. In one old German TV interview he said, basically, that considering technological progress, mankind should not have to work. In the future, technical solutions will help mankind with tasks and bring them more free time. My question is, why didn’t this work out? Why was this promise not fulfilled?

A: Because the purpose of technology is not to benefit humans, it’s to benefit the technosphere. The technosphere uses humans as moving parts, paying them as little as possible for their services in order to expand its control as quickly and dramatically as possible. So there is really no hope that we will ever gain freedom by expanding our use of technology. We can gain some measure of freedom by limiting our technological choices to essentials that we can produce and maintain ourselves to the greatest extent possible. But we cannot just go with the program and expect it to work out for us.

Q: Interesting. Why is technology destroying jobs?

A: Because humans are messy. The good thing about humans is that, left to their own devices, they make more humans; they breed. Machines don’t breed; you actually have to make them. On the other hand, you have to continue to house and feed humans even after they stop working. That’s called retirement. You can’t scrap them like you can machines. So there are pluses and minuses. Also, humans expect a work week: they can’t work 24/7. On the other hand, it’s easier to grow food than to produce electricity, to some extent, and humans can grow their own food to some extent. So there are pluses and minuses, but on the balance of it the technosphere just doesn’t like humans. It wants to replace us with robots and artificial intelligence to the greatest extent possible.

Q: OK. Mr. Orlov, you also write in your new book that technology can be a fetish and enslave people…making them dependent on, let’s say, smartphones. Is this the term fetish coined by Karl Marx, or what do you mean exactly?

A: No. I mean fetish as in a sexual fetish. People who like footwear, or stockings, or leather, things like that. It’s on that level. You see people, say in public transportation, clinging to their smartphones as if they were some kind of a talisman to ward off evil. You see people fondling their smartphones, and that’s basically a symptom of a psychological disorder, of dependence, an attachment disorder of some sort. If people have their smartphones removed from them, or even if they have to survive without wifi access for a couple of days, they’re likely to become catatonic and sit there and rock back and forth. They’ll need psychiatric treatment after that. So people are coming to realize this and internet access is being treated as a human right. Now, from the point of view of the technosphere, that’s perfect. That makes humans perfectly controllable. All you have to do to get them to stay in line is to threaten to cut off their internet access. That’s all you have to do. You don’t have to imprison them; you don’t have to whip them; you don’t have to punish them at all. All you have to do is threaten to cut off their internet access.

Q: That leads me to my next question, because in German we have a word for what you describe in your newest book. It’s called technologie gläubigkeit or wissenschaft gläubigkeit. This means the tendency to neglect the negative social consequences, or to declare technology sacrosanct. Is this what you mean?

A: Well, yes. It’s an article of faith that nobody is allowed to question, that technology is good; that modern technology is better than outdated technology; that more technology is better than less technology; and that every single problem you can imagine has some kind of technological solution. Or, if it doesn’t, then the task is to invent that technological solution. There is never any discussion of the fact that there is already too much technology, too much dependence on it, that we should fall back on strategies that have worked for hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe millions of years before, because these technologies definitely haven’t hurt us in the long run, whereas the technologies we are using today—because they are modern, they are untested—they could be fatal. They could be very damaging and they could be extremely harmful.

Q: You also speak indirectly about espionage and the military sector because you also mention the use of technology for surveillance purposes, for example. Are you, like Julian Assange or Edward Snowden, a critic of these surveillance technologies, or what is your view on this?

A: Well, there are plusses and minuses. If you live in a small village where everybody knows each other and everybody is willing to come to each other’s defense, you have a low crime rate and children play in the street and everybody is happy that way. If you mix people up, if you force them to live alongside strangers in large cities, there’s a lot of alienation, and because of that there is a lot of crime—just because of that, because people don’t deal with each other face to face very well in those circumstances. The solution is to introduce surveillance. It’s not as good a solution as having everybody live within tight-knit communities, but it is a solution. So, security cameras all over the place do save lives, do prevent crime from being committed in bad circumstances. It’s basically a bad solution to a bad problem.

But in terms of population control, surveillance technologies, in terms of suppressing free speech, for instance, in terms of dealing with dissidents and neutralizing them, these technologies are horrid. So, for instance, all of the censorship that is being perpetrated through social media, where just about anything that somebody doesn’t like can be labeled as hate speech, or as bullying, or as abusive, just because somebody doesn’t like it, just because it’s against somebody’s ideology. Now that is very dangerous and very bad.

Q: Next question: Who benefits from technology?

A: Well, first of all, the main beneficiary of technology is the technosphere itself. It perpetuates its own agenda of infinite growth and ever greater control. Humans benefit from technology to the extent that the technosphere finds them useful, so certainly engineers and technicians are privileged. Various other professionals are definitely privileged. Even manual laborers in jobs that cannot be automated or replaced with robots can be privileged, but once they are replaced with robots they’re pretty much completely useless, so the technosphere can deal with them by providing them with alcohol and drugs, for instance, to make sure that they die sooner, and that is the typical pattern.

Q: So Mr. Orlov, the next question, which you told me upfront would be given a broad answer. What role does technology play in economy and trade?

A: It plays a huge role, because at this point there is very little economic activity that happens without, for instance, the use of products derived from crude oil. Nothing moves without products derived from crude oil. There is really nothing green about that and never will be. And so that is a technological process. The technosphere really took off after the discovery of fossil fuels: first coal, then oil, natural gas, nuclear; and it will only continue to the extent that it can while these resources can be exploited. And now that they’re running low in most parts of the world the technosphere has to isolate itself and sequester itself in various promising zones that still have enough resources to keep it alive for the time being. So if you look at world trade, it will be between the parts of the world that the technosphere can still inhabit. And various parts of the world that the technosphere finds useless to its purposes will find themselves cut off.

Q: Mr. Orlov, what do you think of nuclear technology in general?

A: Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a nuclear technology in general. There is, for instance, nuclear technology in the United States. It has around a hundred nuclear power plants. A lot of them are still in use. A lot of them are very old. The United States at this point lacks the technology to safely dismantle them, or the funds to do so. As far as replacing these nuclear power plants, they no longer have the technical expertise to do so, and its latest attempt to build a nuclear reactor has been a fiasco.

On the other hand, if you look at Rosatom, the Russian nuclear corporation, it is well on the way to developing the closed nuclear cycle which will solve the problem of high-level nuclear waste. It will make it possible to burn up high-level nuclear waste in nuclear reactors until it becomes low-level nuclear waste that can be safely disposed of. And on the other hand it will make it possible to use uranium 238 as fuel. Right now it’s being called depleted uranium, and it’s considered useless for most purposes, except maybe making American armaments, because it’s a very heavy, dense, hard metal. But if it is used as fuel, then there are literally thousands of years of fuel available.

So the Russians are building out this technology, and not just in Russia but in other countries around the world—in Iran, in Egypt; many other countries. China is following pretty much the same program with a certain lag, but it can license Russian technology. And everybody else is pretty much left behind. So if you look at nuclear technology, it’s pretty much Russia, China, and maybe France still has some capacity left. Certainly not the United States. Germany has decided to get rid of all nuclear technology and embrace renewables, so now its electricity is six times more expensive than in Russia, making it pretty much a futile pursuit to manufacture anything in Germany. Other countries perhaps have the option—like Egypt—of buying into the Russian nuclear program, or, if they’re hostile toward Russia, as for instance Great Britain has been, they won’t have a chance to do so.

Q: Next question, Mr. Orlov. You wrote about the correlation between technology and medicine. To quote: Ukraine, to give just one example, is now Europe’s breeding ground for polio and measles, which were eradicated while Ukraine remained in the USSR. Could you elaborate on this?

A: Yes. The Soviet Union made a major investment in public health, and eradicated many infectious diseases. The legacy of that is still being used. For instance right now, the plague, bubonic plague, has come back in Mongolia and a neighboring region of the Russian Federation, in Tuva. And the vaccine that was developed by Soviet scientists is being used today to vaccinate the people and stop that epidemic. And there are similar examples. For instance, the Sputnik V vaccine for coronavirus was developed in the Soviet Union in the 80s, and has now been repurposed, basically given a different payload, to develop immunity against the coronavirus.

There are many similar examples of technology being put to good use to save human lives, and a lot of that was done as public policy as opposed to commercial, privatized medicine, which is what, for example, the Americans are trying to do, rather unsuccessfully.

Q: So the next question, and I would ask one more thing regarding the Sputnik V vaccine. You said it was already developed in the Soviet Union. It is now reshaped, or a new version, but the formula is older, from Soviet times?

A: Yes, the technique. It uses the adenovirus, a modified version of it that lacks the ability to replicate within the human body. The vaccine uses the adenovirus as the delivery vehicle. That’s most of what this technology is, and it’s proven, effective, etc.. And the payload is a little bit of the coronavirus genome that’s been chopped out specifically. It’s the bit that generates the spike protein that allows the virus to penetrate human cells. And so the adenovirus is introduced into the body, penetrates cells and releases its payload. The cells then produce the protein—at this point it doesn’t have very much to do with the coronavirus itself except for this one spike protein. That protein then reacts with the immune system and antibodies are generated, which is the end result of the whole process. And since the adenovirus lacks the ability to replicate, it just gets flushed out of the system. So the only new ingredient is the spike protein. It’s not toxic on its own; it doesn’t do anything on its own, really, except trigger an immune response, because the body doesn’t recognize it, which is what it has to do. So that’s the reason that the Russians were able to do this so quickly, and so successfully. Because it’s basically reuse of an existing technique with a slight modification.

Q: Okay. Thank you very much. Coming back to your book, you wrote that the ability to dislodge and then exploit people is a key ingredient in the technosphere’s success. Why is this?

A: Well, because if you have cohesive human societies that take care of their own members, they’re rather difficult to exploit. They tend to be picky in terms of what jobs they choose; they expect to be well compensated for their effort, and they have lots of fallbacks. For instance, if times are hard they can go back to the land, live with their relatives, with their clan, grow their own food and feel perfectly safe. And then if conditions improve they might go to the cities, look for work, etc. But if you run people off the land, if you disrupt communities, if you introduce completely incompatible strangers speaking a strange language into the community, make people afraid of each other, introduce a level of violence—for instance, take people from war zones and introduce them into communities that are used to very peaceful circumstances, you will make people so desperate that they will do just about anything just to survive because they have no fallback, they have no community support, they’re surrounded by strangers—they’re desperate, and they’ll accept anything. So that’s the technosphere’s trick for exploiting people. Disrupt and destroy communities by introducing strangers, and make that community behave not as a community but as alienated, desperate individuals.

Q: Mr. Orlov, what is your conclusion and what will the technological future look like regarding [unintelligible], AI [unintelligible], digitalizing [unintelligible] consciousness. What’s your take on this?

A: Well, I think a lot of it is just fluff. A lot of this fancy new technology is nothing. I think AI and neural net programming is useful for quite a few specific jobs. As far as digital versions of your elderly relatives, etc., that’s a little bit science fiction at this point. I think overall a lot of people will be forced to shrink their use of technology to some extent. Just the economic circumstances will force them to do so. On the other hand it’s a very potent technique: the internet and smartphones are very potent technique to keep people calm and to control them. So to that extent I think it will still be used, but I don’t expect there to be anything particularly outlandish in daily use by regular people. I think a lot of that will remain as propaganda, as technological, techno-utopian propaganda. There’s always plenty of that: there’s always talk of space missions to Mars and flying cars and what have you. That’s just a constant barrage, but that’s just propaganda.

Q: Thank you very much. My last question: do you have a positive scenario, or do you see a negative future scenario? Will it be like the movie The Terminator, or will technology give mankind a positive vibe, let’s say like in Startrek?

A: Well, I think it’s none of the above. We have no choice but to use technology. Cooking food, for instance, is a form of technology. Making clothes out of whatever—out of tree bark—is still technology. So we’ll always have some kind of technology. The question is, what kind of technology will it be? How much of it will be under our control, or not? I think we’ll live in a world that is increasingly agrarian. The amount of energy needed to maintain huge cities is just not going to be available in most places in the world. So the world will be increasingly local and agrarian, but I think there’ll still be some very useful gadgets. So, for instance, the fact that it’s possible to keep an entire library of material on a single SD card is a major breakthrough compared to paper carriers for books. Some of that may persist for quite a while. The problem is that such uses for technology require technology clusters that can produce and maintain it, and the question is in which parts of the world can these technology clusters be maintained. If you look, these will be places that have the entire technological chain, starting with mining and fossil fuel production, on to nuclear fuel production, on to everything needed to maintain an electric grid, everything needed to educate and train people who will produce semiconductors and write software, and all of the support for that. There are just a few places in the world where it’s possible to imagine that something like that will persist for many decades, perhaps centuries.

[Dreamtimer]

The dreaded/desired collapse is being fueled in part by much teeth-gnashing over antifa, a supposedly very dangerous organization. Which is not organized. And what's so wrong with being anti-fascist? Seems like fascism is a good thing to be against and perhaps there should be more organization of such a thing.

The Smithsonian (http://https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/brief-history-anti-fascism-180975152/) has taken a look at antifa over time.


https://thumbs-prod.si-cdn.com/DTTqC8bOb3r3Cm7dTN575zm_Iro=/800x600/filters:no_upscale()/https://public-media.si-cdn.com/filer/6b/cb/6bcb7c80-7cef-46f7-a330-3a79e799c1e1/gettyimages-466702193.jpg


Demonstration on May Day with antifascist banners, on May 1, 1929 in New York. (Gamma-Keystone via Getty Images)



Eluard Luchell McDaniels traveled across the Atlantic in 1937 to fight fascists in the Spanish Civil War, where he became known as “El Fantastico” for his prowess with a grenade. As a platoon sergeant with the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion of the International Brigades, the 25-year-old African American from Mississippi commanded white troops and led them into battle against the forces of General Franco, men who saw him as less than human. It might seem strange for a Black man to go to such lengths for the chance to fight in a white man’s war so far from home—wasn’t there enough racism to fight in the United States?—but McDaniels was convinced that anti-fascism and anti-racism were one and the same. “I saw the invaders of Spain [were] the same people I’ve been fighting all my life," Historian Peter Carroll quotes McDaniels as saying. "I’ve seen lynching and starvation, and I know my people’s enemies.”

McDaniels was not alone in seeing anti-fascism and anti-racism as intrinsically connected; the anti-fascists of today are heirs to almost a century of struggle against racism. While the methods of Antifa have become the object of much heated political discourse, the group’s ideologies, particularly its insistance on physical direct action to prevent violent opression, are much better understood when seen in the framework of a struggle against violent discrimination and persecution began almost a century ago.

By James Stout

[Fred Steeves]

Nice to be reassured that unneeded violence is never a product of the Left, makes it pretty clear and simple that if we can just get rid of the Right, peace and prosperity will reign supreme across the kingdom.

Perhaps Antifa could actually get its act together, to help the incorruptible and long known great humanitarian Joe Biden lead the way into a new golden age of law and order. Fingers crossed. Go team D! :)

[Emil El Zapato]

Fred nails another one!

[Dreamtimer]

I'm more interested in history repeating itself.

I'm not sure why one side needs to be pointed to. The whole country was involved in the fight against fascism, not just one side.

But I understand how easy it is to cop out and assume that I'm giving the nod to one side or the other.

Facile, even.

[Dreamtimer]

Here's some general advice, freely given. For whomever may need it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svkgOsr7pUc

[Emil El Zapato]

I would think that fascism transcends Red and Blue in the United States. Perhaps not? Everyday is a learning experience.

[Fred Steeves]

To those who haven't sold their souls to either company store here in the States, partisan hacks are extremely easy to spot. The humor of it arises in watching them contort around trying to deny the obvious.

[Dreamtimer]

It's so easy to label. But you're continually wrong with me, Fred. So I'm not sure your skills are really so good.

Have you listened to any of Beau's vids? They're quite short. He knows what the Constitution is about and has had direct experience with both the police and military.

[Octopus Garden]

Fred,

That is kind of insulting. Just because someone is anti-Trump doesn't make them a partisan hack. That makes no sense at all.

[Emil El Zapato]

Hi OG, fred has a habit of that because he assumes so much. I don't even know if he is referring to me in that regard but honestly it doesn't matter, it is just par for his course. I should note that I wouldn't normally be so harsh, it is just that some are ... what's that word again, oh yeah, incorrigible. :) There doesn't seem to be any interest in pursuing a true course of discussion rather just flinging insults while on the run. hmm, maybe I'm the incorrigible one... hehehe, I am and I enjoy it ... :)

[Fred Steeves]

Fred,

That is kind of insulting. Just because someone is anti-Trump doesn't make them a partisan hack. That makes no sense at all.

Well first off it's nothing to do about Captain Chaos. Second, I don't see insult at all, it's just a descriptor. Kyle Kulinski from "Secular Talk" points out obvious partisan hackery all the time and it's never frowned upon here, it's just simply pointing out the obvious. Do you think it's an insult to call a Sean Hannity type a partisan hack, or a Rachel Maddow type a partisan hack? To each, anyone from the opposing party may as well be the devil incarnate, and anyone from the home team a knight in shining armor. No matter what either way.

I call that hackery, what do you call it?

When you're not only defending Antifa no matter what, but glorifying it to boot, well now we're really hitting it on all cylinders.

[Emil El Zapato]

I wanted to delete this before Aragorn saw it, Fred knows too well how to play this game!

[Dreamtimer]

So general. So shallow. Why look under the surface of the water? What could possibly be there?

[Emil El Zapato]

Kulinski is only one step above a snake's belly in a wagon rut ... :)

[Octopus Garden]

Well first off it's nothing to do about Captain Chaos. Second, I don't see insult at all, it's just a descriptor. Kyle Kulinski from "Secular Talk" points out obvious partisan hackery all the time and it's never frowned upon here, it's just simply pointing out the obvious. Do you think it's an insult to call a Sean Hannity type a partisan hack, or a Rachel Maddow type a partisan hack? To each, anyone from the opposing party may as well be the devil incarnate, and anyone from the home team a knight in shining armor. No matter what either way.

I call that hackery, what do you call it?

When you're not only defending Antifa no matter what, but glorifying it to boot, well now we're really hitting it on all cylinders.

What is anti-fa?

[Octopus Garden]

Well first off it's nothing to do about Captain Chaos. Second, I don't see insult at all, it's just a descriptor. Kyle Kulinski from "Secular Talk" points out obvious partisan hackery all the time and it's never frowned upon here, it's just simply pointing out the obvious. Do you think it's an insult to call a Sean Hannity type a partisan hack, or a Rachel Maddow type a partisan hack? To each, anyone from the opposing party may as well be the devil incarnate, and anyone from the home team a knight in shining armor. No matter what either way.

I call that hackery, what do you call it?

When you're not only defending Antifa no matter what, but glorifying it to boot, well now we're really hitting it on all cylinders.

Calling someone a hack seems pretty insulting to me. It infers they don't necessarily believe what they are saying or are somehow blind to other points of view, or are simple stenographers to those higher in the hierarchy.

If I called you a manipulative hack, because you appear to be objective when you aren't, is that insulting to you? I am not calling you this, just asking if that would insult you.:confused:

[Fred Steeves]

.If I called you a manipulative hack, because you appear to be objective when you aren't, is that insulting to you? I am not calling you this, just asking if that would insult you.:confused:

Well first off, to me this is comparing apples and oranges to a certain extent. A "partisan hack" is often one who is so enamored by the home team colors, that they subconsciously hide or downplay anything the least bit critical of the team, eternally hold them blameless, and furiously insist that any and all bad political decisions are the fault of the other team. Always. There is no other option.

But, there can also be the "partisan hack" that knows full well what they're doing, but chooses to be so anyway just because they believe so deeply in the righteousness of the cause. Never let your teammate down even if they are dead wrong on any given issue, and you damn well know it, but do it anyway because the ends justify the means.

I believe the former is going on here, although at times I wonder about NAP...

Now a "manipulative hack" I've never heard of, although at first glance I'd tend to place them in the latter category of partisan hack.

[Dreamtimer]

Never heard of a manipulative hack? Now that's just funny. Any partisan hack is going to be manipulative. That's part and parcel.

[Emil El Zapato]

the only thing i hack is my tv selection

[Emil El Zapato]

On a more serious note, perhaps you should pass this on to your unbiased, middle of the road, i seel all evil compatriots.

I've been saying this for quite a few years now: If the right did not chronically and continuously lie about everything it might be possible for the poor joe blow to know what the hell is truth and what is lie. As it is, there is only one default position for us to hold. Anything the right says has to be figured for a lie ... and the only response is one of extreme exasperation and an automatic exclamation of 'bullshit'.

Get that one straightened out with your guys and we might make some progress.

[Dreamtimer]

It's so easy to label. But you're continually wrong with me, Fred. So I'm not sure your skills are really so good.

Have you listened to any of Beau's vids? They're quite short. He knows what the Constitution is about and has had direct experience with both the police and military.

No substantive reply. Oh well. I didn't expect one, of course. That would be out of character and off the normal patterns.

[Chris]

https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nation/bleeding-out/

Bleeding Out

“The difference between you and me,” Mr. Trump said to the ever more ghostly Joe Biden, fading mentally late in the action on the debate stage, “is that I’m not a politician and you are, and you’re a crooked politician.” Millions watching this spectacle might not have noticed, due to the media’s near-complete blackout of news detailing the Biden family’s adventures in systematic global moneygrubbing, but the Democratic candidate for president has political Ebola, a hemorrhagic fever of credibility, now gushing out of every pore and orifice.

Twitter and Facebook may try to squelch the story, but the evidence is all over the Internet now, like blood on a crime scene, in verifiable emails, texts, Snapchats, memoranda, and bank records that Ol’ White Joe Biden is at the center of a decades-long influence-peddling spree, selling his personal services to China, Russia, Ukraine, and any other country seeking favors in US government policy, and that this slime-trail of grift disqualifies him from holding high office as much as the irreversible rot of his cognitive abilities.

The “Laptop from Hell” affair has twelve more days to play out before the November 3 vote and the Democratic Party is in a terrible jam. Do they ask Mr. Biden to step aside, or do they keep running with him while the barrage of allegations and hard evidence pours down on them like so many mortar rounds on a besieged bunker? It’s obvious now that one way or another, voters are actually being asked to elect Kamala Harris president — but who asked for her? Only the disgraced and disabled head of the ticket, Joe Biden, desperate for a non-white running mate. Elsewise, she was so disliked by voters that she skulked out of the Iowa caucuses, ending her own run. Is Hillary ironing her purple pantsuit up in Chappaqua, awaiting the emergency call from her DNC?

The early 2020 impeachment gambit has finally blown up in the Democrats’ faces, too, as it’s now obvious the phony furor over Mr. Trump’s phone call to Ukraine President Zelensky was ginned up to smother any inquiry into Hunter Biden’s $83,000-a-month services to the Burisma gas company and its crooked chief, Mykola Zlochevsky, with help from then US Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch and several of her staff, as well as then Secretary of State John Kerry.

Interestingly, figures associated with Mr. Kerry (the 2004 Democratic party nominee), Devon Archer and Christopher Heinz (Mr. Kerry’s stepson) also happened to be business associates of Hunter Biden’s, and therefore the Biden family syndicate. Mr. Archer is currently under conviction, awaiting sentencing, on a federal securities fraud rap. If US attorneys out of the DOJ have any interest in talking to him, they have a lever to incentivize his testimony about many of the transactions involving Burisma in Ukraine and the Chinese companies that were funneling payments to the Bidens for “introductions” to US persons of influence.

The Democrats have a whole lot of bad behavior to defend, ranging far beyond the Bidens to the decades-long activities of the Clintons in their charity frauds, the related Uranium One matter — in which $150-million in Russian money found its way into the Clinton Foundation — and the deal that set up transfers of US secret computer tech to Russia’s Skolkovo project, which eventuated in Russia’s development of hypersonic weapons. Not to mention the RussiaGate coup operation to overthrow the president using false allegations supplied by Mrs. Clinton, the Democratic National Committee, and scores of high officials in a range of executive agencies.

Ironically many of those same schemers are at it again in the recent letter by a long list of former Intel spooks trying to discredit The New York Post’s reporting on Hunter Biden’s laptop as “having all the earmarks” of a Russian disinformation op. At the top of the list of that letter’s signers, you’ll find John Brennan, CIA chief under Obama, and James Clapper, former Director of National Intelligence – both of them progenitors of the RussiaGate coup and liable to prosecution for seditious conspiracy. Can you smell their desperation?

Something else may be turning now, though, on this titanic hairball of corruption and deceit: mainstream media reporters starting to jump into lifeboats to save their reputations by actually reporting honestly on developments in this web of stories. The few early adapters to truth-telling may be the only survivors. The ones who stick with the ship of deception are going down into cold and darkness. And if President Trump wins reelection — a possibility despite polling that, in many cases, is just propaganda — the public will learn exactly how the Democratic Party became the enemy of the people.

[Emil El Zapato]

Coollllaaaaappppapssssssssiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnggg ggggggggggggggggg

into https://landing.newscientist.com/department-for-education-feature-3/

Wave function collapse


Part of a series on
Quantum mechanics

In quantum mechanics, wave function collapse occurs when a wave function—initially in a superposition of several eigenstates—reduces to a single eigenstate due to interaction with the external world.

[Dreamtimer]

This kind of stuff will lead to collapse. These folks don't have a alternate system. Not one which can hold up in the world we now live in.


The militiamen who plotted to kidnap and execute Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer saw their operation mainly as a backup plan for a much more ambitious “Plan A,” prosecutors say. The plan was to assemble 200 armed “Patriots” who would take over the state Capitol building in Lansing, Michigan, and then hold televised executions of the state officials they took hostage.

Here's the court filing (https://www.scribd.com/document/484048772/AG-Brief-for-Musico-Bond-Hearing-10-23-20-p-1-8).


According to a document filed by the Michigan Attorney General’s Office this week in response to an attempt by attorneys for one of the men to drastically reduce his bond, the militiamen devised the Capitol takeover plan alongside their schemes to abduct Whitmer from her summer home. At the end, they intended either to kill everyone inside the building or to simply set it aflame with everyone locked inside.


What kinds of people want to lock up elected Representatives and burn them alive?

Certainly not Patriots. Not real ones.


During one of the protests on April 30, armed men had attempted to invade the floor of the state House but were prevented from doing so by state police. The militiamen began scheming, thinking of ways to successfully overtake the Capitol building around that time.


“Develop regional QRFs and squad tactics. Only add people you trust no statist, no fudds, no bootlickers and no cops or feds. If you're serious get a wire and message an admin your username.”


The group’s rules included references to the “Boogaloo,” the civil war movement to which the participants all subscribed. One such rule limited membership: “Boojahidden only, No feds, statist, cops, bootlickers or commies or ethnonationalist.”

Boojahaddin. Supposed to sound like mujahadin.

Hawaiian shirts. There is nothing aloha about what these boys are doing. Boys being the operative word here.


Clearly some folks really want collapse.

[Wind]

swgwCDaTPqo

[Chris]

A couple of thoughts on the current goings on in the US.

Note that I'm non-partisan and a centrist, with no investment in either Trump and his fellow right-wing populists (such as the one here in Hungary) or the global Left which is largely in charge throughout society, especially in the media and academia (excepting Murdoch-run rags, but no serious person takes those seriously)

To me, as an outsider, it finally looks like the USA is turning into a Banana republic, or as Gore Vidal famously put it, taking up its natural place in the Americas, somewhere between Brazil and Argentina. This was always slated to happen and the circumstances leading up to it have created a combustible mix that only needed a small spark to create the current explosion. Few societies are as polarised as the USA is today and I have long said that some sort of low level civil war will be inevitable. Perhaps that has now started or maybe it will yet be averted, at least for now, but the polarisation isn't going anywhere and will come to a head eventually.

I have noted with sadness that four (as far as we know) unarmed protesters have been shot dead by the authorities. That really is the sort of thing that only happens in Banana republics or failed states and the news coverage, which basically blames the protesters themselves, rather than the ones that murdered them, is instructive. I can only imagine how different the coverage would be if these were BLM protesters, rather than Trump supporters, that were shot dead in such a manner.

The USA isn't my country, but if you don't find the injustice of that outrageous, something is wrong with your moral compass.

Again, I'm not taking sides here, just observing things as an anthropologist would on a remote island, where two warring tribes were at each other's throats.

So, the USA may yet emerge from this intact, but I somehow doubt it. Long-term damage has been done to the fabric of society and the historic American Nation in particular has decided that it no longer wants to be run by those that have disdain for it. So, it seems that nearly half of the country is not going to accept Democrat rule and will use violence to overthrow what it sees (whether rightly or wrongly) as a treasonous establishment that works against the interests of the Nation as a whole.

This was always inevitable in my view and I must note here that the Left has always used language (and still does) that indicates a complete hatred of everything that defines the historic American Nation and apparently they are now fed up with it and will not take it any more. This actually reminds me of the Hungarian revolution of 1956 a little bit, at least the general vibe of it.

[Emil El Zapato]

Money is the power.

[Dreamtimer]

We're not quite a banana republic yet.

If the mob had succeded, if the votes had been suppressed enough, if fewer people had come out to vote, if enough members of Congress had voted to ignore the will of the American people, then yes, we would have become a full-on Banana.


Those things didn't happen.

Yes, we have a large number of people who have fallen victim to conspiracy theories which are unfounded, including denial of the danger of Covid, but they haven't taken over the nation.

They are trying really hard, though.

If an election gets overturned without evidence, if a person or group of people get rounded up, arrested and hanged without evidence, i.e. vast, unfounded claims of pedophilia, then it would be a full-fledged Banana Republic. One of the worst sort because we'd still be incredibly powerful.

We came very close.


We have 350 million people. About 10 percent voted for and support Trump. It's a lot of people, but it's not half the country. The Republican domination of our politics throughout my adult life has been predominantly minority rule. They are losing their edge and can't stand it, thus the decades of gerrymandering, purging of voter registrations, closing of polls, and on and on. But they cannot sustain that forever.

They finally became desperate enough to support a man like Trump. His angry followers espouse what Republicans used to call the right-wing and claim was not the driving force of their party.

Those days are also over. The Republican party rolled over so easily to become the party of Trump. It is no longer the party of Reagan. They couldn't even put together a platform in a major election year. They lost their way.

The remainder of the country has been too busy living to really pay attention and is now shocked at all the shenanigans. How could this happen?

I'm not surprised. And there are still enough decent folks here to right the ship and our course and be much better than we have been.

We shall see.

[Dreamtimer]

Regarding the issue of law enforcement shooting people, have folks been paying attention?

People were not only shot and killed during various protests around the country, they were also rounded up by unmarked officers, i.e. 'secret police', blinded and injured by authorities when they were marching unarmed, not looting or destroying property.

The contrast between how authorities react to black people versus how they react to white folks trying to take over state and now federal buildings is pretty outrageous.

This is under the leadership of Trump.


Perhaps people don't really understand the long legacy of race and racism in America.

Did you notice all the Confederate flags?

Does the significance of that escape people? Sedition is plain. Read the US Code.

[Chris]

I think everybody has lost their way DT, politicians of all colours (politically, that is), especially.

You should also realize that you see things from a particular perspective and you can't get the full picture, unless you learn to see things from the other side's point of view as well.

To put it bluntly, I see the current struggle as between nationalism and globalism. The globalists want to wipe out the nation state and their main weapon is the global Left, which dominates the discourse. Of course nationalism comes with its own set of problems, I'm not denying that, the problem is that those that rule over us use these arbitrary distinctions to divide us.

Personally, I would rather have a global, planetary government, than warring nation states. The EU is a good model for how this can work on a global scale and in my view, it has been a force for good, overall.

However, I cannot deny the right of Americans to feel national pride and run their own affairs, without interference from globalists, just as the UK has chosen to go down this isolationist route. Once Biden and co. take over, it will be very difficult to get the historic American Nation back, I suspect it will be gone for good. The current nationalist uprising is a last stand against the dying of the light, the final attempt to save the nation from becoming a globalist hodgepodge, a smorgasbord with no ethnic or national identity of its own.

It will undoubtedly fail and we will have lost a great nation, consigned to the dustbin of history. The UK may well go before the US if current trends in the devolved nations are anything to go by. Yes, something will replace the ruins of the once great US and the UK, but I don't know what it will be. Probably many little nation states, that will first compete with each other, then be integrated into a global governance system.

[Emil El Zapato]

Nothing will change except ALL the people will be happier ... We could move 12,000 years back in time and all be the same, of course, that would limit the viability of the human race in its entirety. Everyone would be susceptible to the same civilization ending events. Ask the Neanderthals and the Denisovans. None of the Neanderthals would have survived covid-19. We have to face reality as it is, ain't nothing gonna stop the intrinsic forward motion of the fully human.

[Aragorn]

I have noted with sadness that four (as far as we know) unarmed protesters have been shot dead by the authorities.

That information is not correct. Only one protester was shot, and she was declared deceased upon her arrival at the hospital. This woman was a war veteran, and she was the first of the protesters to breach the window and enter the building. The police officer who fired a shot at her was only using rubber bullets, but at close enough range and depending on which part of the body gets hit, those are of course just as lethal as normal ammunition.

Maybe said police officer should have fired a warning shot first. Maybe he or she did. But it was obvious that the mob wasn't going to let anyone or anything stop them, and I can imagine that if I had been in that police officer's shoes, I too would have felt sufficiently threatened to pull out my gun. I'm not saying I myself would have shot anyone, but I wasn't there, so I cannot speak for what went on in that police officer's mind. I would either way certainly have fired at least one warning shot, and possibly two or three more.

Anyway, the other three protesters who died were not shot. They died of other causes related to and/or bought about in the stampede. I don't have any details. Maybe they were overrun and they suffocated. Maybe they tried something dangerous and they made a nasty fall. Maybe they had a heart attack or a seizure. I don't know. All I know is that they weren't shot, and the official report states that they died of ─ and I quote─ "medical conditions".


I can only imagine how different the coverage would be if these were BLM protesters, rather than Trump supporters, that were shot dead in such a manner.

Very different indeed. If they had been BLM protesters, then there would at the very least have been an anti-riot brigade waiting for them ─ in combat fatigues and full body armor, and armed with semi-automatic AR-15 rifles with red-dot sights as well as with teargas grenade launchers ─ if not a platoon of the National Guard itself (which has the M-16 and M-4 select-fire variants of the AR-15 platform and M-203 40 mm grenade launchers with high-explosive and/or anti-personnel (i.e. fragmenting) grenades).

[Chris]

That information is not correct. Only one protester was shot, and she was declared deceased upon her arrival at the hospital. This woman was a war veteran, and she was the first of the protesters to breach the window and enter the building. The police officer who fired a shot at her was only using rubber bullets, but at close enough range and depending on which part of the body gets hit, those are of course just as lethal as normal ammunition.

Maybe said police officer should have fired a warning shot first. Maybe he or she did. But it was obvious that the mob wasn't going to let anyone or anything stop them, and I can imagine that if I had been in that police officer's shoes, I too would have felt sufficiently threatened to pull out my gun. I'm not saying I myself would have shot anyone, but I wasn't there, so I cannot speak for what went on in that police officer's mind. I would either way certainly have fired at least one warning shot, and possibly two or three more.

Anyway, the other three protesters who died were not shot. They died of other causes related to and/or bought about in the stampede. I don't have any details. Maybe they were overrun and they suffocated. Maybe they tried something dangerous and they made a nasty fall. Maybe they had a heart attack or a seizure. I don't know. All I know is that they weren't shot, and the official report states that they died of ─ and I quote─ "medical conditions".



Very different indeed. If they had been BLM protesters, then there would at the very least have been an anti-riot brigade waiting for them ─ in combat fatigues and full body armor, and armed with semi-automatic AR-15 rifles with red-dot sights as well as with teargas grenade launchers ─ if not a platoon of the National Guard itself (which has the M-16 and M-4 select-fire variants of the AR-15 platform and M-203 40 mm grenade launchers with high-explosive and/or anti-personnel (i.e. fragmenting) grenades).

Ok thanks,

Such details weren't really available yet when I made the post.

It is all very tragic and I've noticed that even his most die-hard allies have abandoned the Orange one.

[Chris]

I'm in an apocalyptic mood today.

I don't know if it is due to my own personal circumstances or because the world is going to hell in a handbasket, or both.

The below article (minus the satanic nonsense) sums up my dark and pessimistic mood perfectly. I think we are possibly on the verge of a mass die-off in many countries.

Personally, I don't fear death, for me it is a been there, done that sort of thing. Dying can be disorienting at first, but once you're through the initial shock, it is actually a bit of a relief to be rid of your flesh and blood biological prison. I have good contacts on the other side and I have cultivated my soul and energy body sufficiently that I know I will be ok and will be returning to family who care about me deeply. In that sense, I am quite looking forward to returning to the fold and retaking my place amongst the family of souls that I left behind when I incarnated in the flesh and blood body, for the very last time.

However, I do have compassion for others who won't take the mass die-off coming to our species that well and it is their coming suffering and fear that saddens me the most. Unfortunately such is life and all this is part of the natural order. What goes up must come down and what is born must die.

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2020/12/world-satanic-society-2020-year-end.html#more

World Satanic Society 2020 Year-End Report

Fellow-Satanists, honored guests, ladies and gentlemen! The year 2020 has been a banner year for our society and for His Satanic Majesty! [Applause]

Our major success of 2020, of course, was in locking down half the planet by hyping a not-too-dangerous respiratory virus that's mostly dangerous for the old and the sick with the help of Satanic Minion Tedros Adhanom Boutros-Boutros-Boutros Ghebreyesus at our affiliate World Health Organization. This has allowed us to proactively set in motion a controlled demolition of the global economy. It stands to greatly enrich our members, whereas the inevitable spontaneous collapse would have wiped us out. [Enthusiastic applause, shouts of "Bravo!"]

Still, we must not grow complacent; the virus ploy will stop working for us at some point. We do not want to find ourselves in the situation of a Boutros-Boutros-Boutros who cried wolf one time too many! The hype is wearing off already. The use of the term "lockdown" was unfortunate; after all, it is US prison slang for locking inmates in their cells. Plus those damnable Russians seem to have developed their Sputnik-V, a vaccine that actually works. Now everybody seems to want it instead of our preferred toxic, fertility-destroying potions. Still, it brought tears of joy to many a Satanist's face watching millions of people wear face masks and stand 1,5 meters apart just as shown in Stanley Kubrik's excellent film "Eyes Wide Shut" starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. [Confused looks; some stifled guffaws, a smattering of applause]


Our other major success of this past year has been in installing Kamala Harris, a fellow-Satanist code-named "Matilda," as the leader of the free world. Like virtually all of His Satanic Majesty's maidservants, Kamala is barren, or, if you prefer, "child-free." To be fruitful and multiply requires God's grace and, needless to say, God is not exactly on our side. By the way, this is why we are always looking for new blood, preferably the blood of Christian children. It helps our members remain active to an obscenely old age. Henry Kissinger and George Soros have had their fill. Joe Biden is waiting for his transfusion now. [Laughter]

Installing "Matilda" (her code name immortalized by her Jamaican compatriot Harry Belafonte) has been a gargantuan task for our members and their allies and minions in the Democratic Party and the Deep State. But it all worked out thanks to the wonderful US public education system. It has produced several generations of Americans who can barely count on their fingers and toes. Were they able to do basic arithmetic, they would have spotted the problem: 74 million votes for Trump plus 81 million votes for Biden gives us 155 million votes total. But there were only 153 million registered voters just two years ago, so that's 101% voter turn-out. And then 160 million are said to have voted, so that's 104.5% turn-out! Compare that to 55.7% turn-out in the 2016 election. [Furrowed brows, nervously twitching fingers and toes]

There is no way to make the numbers make any sense. Since 2016 the US population grew by just under 8 million. Optimistically assuming half of them became eligible to vote; that would add 4 million to the rolls. Optimistically assuming all of them actually registered to vote, that would only make 157 million. Accept the reported stunning voter turn-out number for 2020 of 66.7%. That's just under 105 million votes total—nowhere near then 160 million number that has been reported. If Trump got 74 million votes, as reported, then just 31 million votes would be the theoretical maximum for Biden—less then half as many as for Trump. [Stunned silence]

So how could Biden and Harris have won? Easy! The same way it was possible to knock down three New York skyscrapers using two airplanes on 9/11. If the people haven't been taught to count, you can get them to believe just about anything! [Laughter, applause]

And so, barring an act of God, "Matilda" will be installed as Queen of the White House while Joe Biden, kept alive by the blood of Christian infants, will just sign his name and say "Yes, Madam Vice President" whenever "Matilda" pokes him with a stick. The possibility of an act of God is not to be excluded, of course; remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Nevertheless, we should expect that this particular reincarnation of "Matilda" will get crowned with all due pomp and circumstance and proceed to get fat in America just another "Matilda," in the inspired words of Hugh Masekela, "gettin' fat in Africa." And then, of course, she'll follow the script and "take the money and run to Venezuela..." [Stunned gasps]

...because, you see, she'll have to! By the end of her term there won't be much of a country for her to continue to get fat in. And this brings us to the final traditional part of the year-end report: the forecast. According to our Satanist friends at Deagel.com (lovely understated Satanic logo, by the way, kudos to the designers!) by 2025 the United States will lose 70% of its population, 92% of its real GDP and its economy will be slightly smaller than that of Mexico. Meanwhile, China will remain the world's largest economy, growing slightly, while Russia and India will skyrocket to rank second and third. The world rankings will look quite different. Germany will find itself somewhere between Chile and South Africa. Switzerland and the United Kingdom (should this silly anachronism still exist) will rank somewhere between Slovakia and Greece. The Swedes will be poorer than the Romanians... and so on. The world is changing before our eyes and nothing will ever be the same. [Stunned silence]

We should take hope, however, because we can be sure that this changed world will provide ample Devil's playgrounds for us Satanists in the formerly rich but soon to be destitute nations of the world. Yes, what with the China-Russia tandem pretty much in charge of the entire globe, we will be cast out into the darkness from the Eurasian heartland and forced to hang on at the edges of the world, but before that happens we'll have quite a feast! Tuck in, friends! The Satanic buffet is open!

[Aragorn]

That information is not correct. Only one protester was shot, and she was declared deceased upon her arrival at the hospital. This woman was a war veteran, and she was the first of the protesters to breach the window and enter the building. The police officer who fired a shot at her was only using rubber bullets, but at close enough range and depending on which part of the body gets hit, those are of course just as lethal as normal ammunition.

Maybe said police officer should have fired a warning shot first. Maybe he or she did. But it was obvious that the mob wasn't going to let anyone or anything stop them, and I can imagine that if I had been in that police officer's shoes, I too would have felt sufficiently threatened to pull out my gun. I'm not saying I myself would have shot anyone, but I wasn't there, so I cannot speak for what went on in that police officer's mind. I would either way certainly have fired at least one warning shot, and possibly two or three more.

Anyway, the other three protesters who died were not shot. They died of other causes related to and/or bought about in the stampede. I don't have any details. Maybe they were overrun and they suffocated. Maybe they tried something dangerous and they made a nasty fall. Maybe they had a heart attack or a seizure. I don't know. All I know is that they weren't shot, and the official report states that they died of ─ and I quote─ "medical conditions".


Update: One police officer has also succumbed to injuries sustained in the storming of the Capitol. This puts the shooting of one of the protesters in an entirely different light, doesn't it?

[Emil El Zapato]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FPrJxTvgdQ