Joe Six Pack

[Dreamtimer]

Who is this fellow? Do we know him? Is he here? What does he want? Who does he care about?

Is he the sympathetic 'everyman'?

Does anyone know?

Here are some perspectives:


...[welcoming support from Sarah Palin is] smart politics (https://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/sarah-palin-donald-trump-2016-alliance-120958). Trump carries many positions, from admiring comments about Bill Clinton to support for Obamacare-like health policies, that jeopardize his standing with grass-roots conservatives. Palin, with her unimpeachable conservative cred, stands ready to vouch for him.


Palin called those loyalists to action with a piece in Breitbart.com, casting Trump as the candidate of “Joe Six-Pack” Americans.


Palin wrote: “Everywhere I’ve gone this summer, including motorsport events in Detroit full of fed-up Joe Six-Pack Americans, the folks I meet commiserate about wussified slates of politicians, but then unsolicited, they whisper their appreciation for Trump because he has the guts to say it like it is.”


“What do we have in common? Our love for this country, a desire to see our economy put back on the right track,” Palin said after a meeting at Trump’s penthouse in Manhattan




Joe gets up at 6:00 AM (https://www.nobeliefs.com/RepublicanDay.htm) to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.


Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.


Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dad's; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republicans would still be sitting in the dark.)




Like Ronald Reagan (http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-one-pundit-saw-him-coming-441948) before him, who was a household face for millions of Americans who had grown up watching General Electric Theater and Death Valley Days, Trump is a familiar face to fans of what might be described as “low-brow TV.”

“Downton Abbey” devotees might have missed him. Joe Six Pack didn’t. And to the astonishment of our pundit class, such as New York Times columnist David Brooks (who finally recognized “I have to change the way I do my job if I’m going to report accurately on this country.”), Joe Six Pack turns out for Trump rallies. And votes.

Look for him at the polls in November.



The Joe Sixpack Index (http://econintersect.com/pages/releases/release.php?post=201712090546)

The Joe Sixpack Index is a composite index of home prices and wage income (again - Joe owns a house with a mortgage, has a job, and no other assets). This index was designed to measure how rich Joe should feel. The theory is that the richer Joe feels, the more Joe will spend.

The data in this index is only updated every three months, and the data was updated with the release of the Federal Reserves Z.1 Flow of Funds.
It is inflation and population adjusted.

Currently, Joe has a house that is increasing in value - and his income in inflation terms is growing - but the net affect is that the rate of growth of the index declined - but still indicates Joe feels insignificantly richer than he did in the last quarter.


My takeaway is:

On whole, American households with no assets and only income from wages or safety nets are just treading water.
This is a lagging view of the average American's situation. Having said this, Joe and Middle Man's consumption is somewhat affected by how rich they feel - and it takes some time for the wealth effect to sink in.
The majority of Americans are more like Joe Sixpack than Middle Man.
The more assets you have - the richer you feel.


Note: The Z.1 data is based on averages not medians. In other words, the rich are getting richer - and this influences the averages.




National politics are creeping into the bar room (http://neatpour.com/2018/03/trumps-tariff-could-mean-hikes-in-beer-prices/) again. On Thursday (3.02), President Trump imposed a 10% tariff on aluminum imports and declared his affection for trade wars, Those actions might be that the cost of beer and soft drinks will be on the rise. Aluminum just so happens to be the key ingredient in beer cans and the industry is not happy.


“According to third-party analyses, this 10% tariff will create a new $347.7 million tax on America’s beverage industry, including brewers and beer importers, and result in the loss of 20,291 American jobs,” Jim McGreevy, Beer Institute President and CEO responded in a statement.

“We appreciate the many members of Congress—both Republicans and Democrats—as well members of the cabinet who spoke out against imposing this tariff, many of whom specifically cited their concerns for how this tariff would negatively impact America’s beer industry.”


Republican Senators Ben Sasse, Mike Lee, and Pat Roberts all blasted the measure. Lee called it “job-killing.”

More than half of the beer sold in America is packaged in aluminum cans. Industry observers fear that craft beer drinkers could switch to spirits or wine due to price increases. Political observers wonder how Trump’s base, literally described as “Joe Six Pack” will react.



From Sarah Palin, summer 2015:

Donald Trump, he’s got these Joe Six-Pack issues on his mind, and he’s got these Joe Six-Pack common sense solutions — he just happens to be an extremely successful and charismatic, with a very large platform, Joe Six-Pack.




After several decades (https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/01/10/the_meaning_of_trumps_election_has_been_exaggerate d__135968.html) of emphasizing cleavages based on religion, ethnicity, race, gender and sexual orientation, election commentary in 2016 saw a resurgence of social class as a voting divide. During most campaigns political commentary seems to converge on some particular group or demographic as being particularly critical to the outcome.

Recent decades have seen the year of the woman (1992), soccer moms (1996), security moms (2002) and waitress moms (2012), the angry white male (1994), office park dads (2002), NASCAR dads (2004) and Joe Six-Pack (2008). In the 2016 campaign the commentariat bestowed pride of place on the white working class, males in particular.


Survey analysts commonly use education as a crude indicator of class. The relationship between educational attainment and voting for Trump is very strong, and election commentary drew attention to the voting difference between the college educated and the non-college educates. But surprisingly, an Economist/YouGov survey indicates that a majority of whites with only a four-year college degree voted for Trump, including a narrow plurality of white female college graduates. Clinton’s support was much stronger among people with advanced degrees and certifications.

Measuring class by education puts the Trump/Clinton dividing line between upper middle-class whites and everyone lower, rather than between the middle class and the working class.


While the consequences of Donald Trump’s presidential victory may be major, even existential, its underlying basis has been exaggerated. Our country is not poised on the abyss of race war, Civil War, or any other kind of domestic war. Nor are we sliding down a slippery slope toward fascism. Normal people -- a.k.a. the general public -- continue to live their lives as they did before the election. The voters changed little between 2012 and 2016, although the small changes that occurred were critical for the outcome. Many of Trump’s voters were not endorsing his draconian proposals so much as sending a message that they were unhappy with the direction of current policy.

Finally, many, if not most Americans thought that the parties had given them a historically poor choice. Believing that change was needed, just enough of them in just the right places rolled the dice to send the candidate of the status quo down to defeat.


By no means do such conclusions imply that all is well. In American politics today, majorities are fleeting. For nearly two decades neither party has shown itself capable of governing in a manner that will win long-term support from a majority of the electorate. As astute political writer and presidential biographer Robert Merry has written, “When a man as uncouth and reckless as Trump becomes president by running against the nation’s elites, it’s a strong signal the elites are the problem.”

[Dumpster Diver]

Well, from my poor white trash background, I can fully relate to Joe-Bob Sixer. You libtards are screwing up everything, especially by driving up the cost of ammo.

But if you come to Jesus, we’ll think about forgiving you...maybe.

[Emil El Zapato]

Well, from my poor white trash background, I can fully relate to Joe-Bob Sixer. You libtards are screwing up everything, especially by driving up the cost of ammo.

But if you come to Jesus, we’ll think about forgiving you...maybe.

Funny, actually Joe Six-pack can be a sympathetic character if they are human. Joe Six-pack is the hero of the right, the side which is 'awakening', yet, Joe is the proto-typical guy asleep on his feet or in the case of Trumpster, frighteningly asleep at the wheel when voting.

[palooka's revenge]

Funny, actually Joe Six-pack can be a sympathetic character if they are human. Joe Six-pack is the hero of the right, the side which is 'awakening', yet, Joe is the proto-typical guy asleep on his feet or in the case of Trumpster, frighteningly asleep at the wheel when voting.

yeah, as far a i'm concerned palin high jacked joe 'n jo and, my collar having been blue all my life, consider her misguided characterization an insult!! and its a fact that i'm far from alone in that insult.

[Fred Steeves]

Who is this fellow? Do we know him? Is he here? What does he want? Who does he care about?

Is he the sympathetic 'everyman'?

Does anyone know?

Here are some perspectives:

Who is Joe Six Pack? Rather than the extensive and carefully selected partisan "perspectives" listed in the opening post, how about what the dictionary says:


an ordinary man; specifically : a blue-collar worker

from the stereotype of a six-pack of beer as a workingman's drink
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Joe%20Six-Pack

Emotions certainly have their place in this world, but they are also open to easy manipulation if left unguarded and/or unexamined. This is why courts of law for example, are based on deliberative means such as evidence, witnesses, and due process, not the raw emotions of either warring parties involved. The U.S. Senate is based on much the same. They are (supposedly) the world's most deliberative body, tasked with slowing things down with logical deliberation when Congress gets all hot and heavy with any given hot button emotional/political issue. Checks and balances...

But anyway, please carry on with this public denunciation of the average American blue collar working man, whom by definition is not associated with any political party. It's so open minded, inclusive, and Liberal :)

[Dreamtimer]

Denunciation? Who’s denunciating? You gonna name names, Fred, or just throw out comments?

Did you really just come in to make judgement and leave?

Do you think people here can’t read the dictionary?

Is that really all you have to offer? Your opinion boils down to a dictionary definition? Really? And you’re still throwing out the “liberal” label?

It’s not exactly a homogenous selection of views presented, Fred. Did you miss that part?

You can do way better than that. Even with only half a try. If this is the kind of discussion Joe Six Pack wants, why even bring him up?

What is his message? Sit down, shut up and think in one dimension?

[Emil El Zapato]

Who is Joe Six Pack? Rather than the extensive and carefully selected partisan "perspectives" listed in the opening post, how about what the dictionary says:


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Joe%20Six-Pack

Emotions certainly have their place in this world, but they are also open to easy manipulation if left unguarded and/or unexamined. This is why courts of law for example, are based on deliberative means such as evidence, witnesses, and due process, not the raw emotions of either warring parties involved. The U.S. Senate is based on much the same. They are (supposedly) the world's most deliberative body, tasked with slowing things down with logical deliberation when Congress gets all hot and heavy with any given hot button emotional/political issue. Checks and balances...

But anyway, please carry on with this public denunciation of the average American blue collar working man, whom by definition is not associated with any political party. It's so open minded, inclusive, and Liberal :)

If it is any consolation to you Fred, my dad always referred to me as 'Goodtime Charlie'. Pretty close to Joe Six-Pack actually. Truth be told if Joe wasn't stereotyped by the right as the party's most reliable bigot, he would be a sympathetic character. So is that a stereotype or is it real, Fred. My heart is beating waiting for this moment of significant breakthrough. Stereotypes do no one justice, even the Asian whom by the Western Intellectual is considered to be smarter than them. Which in Hollywood, is why the Asian is always at the keyboard when high tech crimes are being committed. A doubled-edged stereotype if there ever was one.

[Dreamtimer]

The only emotion I have right now is disappointment.

No point fencing with someone who takes their epee and goes home.

[Emil El Zapato]

He'll be back, he's just gathering his resources... :)

Fred, likes to be the bearer of bad news, but I suspect he's feeling somewhat wounded. He shouldn't...as OJ's attorney said 'If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit!' Or was it, 'if the shoe fits, wear it!' One of them thar' sayings.

[Dreamtimer]

Fred brought up Joe as an important person/figure. Someone who votes. Someone we should respect.

If he’s a driving force that’s slow to wake and armed for bear he needs more talking about.

I sure don’t need lecturing about my supposed emotions. It’s a big fat distraction.

[Emil El Zapato]

Fred brought up Joe as an important person/figure. Someone who votes. Someone we should respect.

If he’s a driving force that’s slow to wake and armed for bear he needs more talking about.

I sure don’t need lecturing about my supposed emotions. It’s a big fat distraction.

no doubt that's true of any of us...

[enjoy being]

At an easy guess, (and having prior understanding of older terms such as Joe Bloggs) the name Joe Sixpack will be a demographical name for a character which the owners wish the public to become attached to.
Some may call it, just your ordinary average everyday 'bloke'. Others might want to pin associations to the persona, make him identifiable with certain groups of voters.
Now because everyone loves a well written dramatic story, these personalities can now be used to attempt to sway opinion.
It has been proven many times that a nice story with characters people can relate to will always gain much more traction than a story not embellished with emotional hooks.
One of the better ways to get a Joe Bloggs to have wide spread appeal is to be fairly vague about the character's specifics but promote hints of luring likeable traits. For example, Six pack might mean beer, or it might mean toned abdominal muscles. Those two different definitions as example are a key part of the function of ambiguity. You can rope in both the beer guzzlers AND the gym bunnies.
And then, on top of that, or once the audience has been sufficiently compromised by their own short-sightedness and desire, you can tell them pretty much anything you like and they will lap it up, thinking they haven't been forgotten and they belong to a family.

[enjoy being]

Oh, I see now it really is meant to mean six pack of beer. Groans.
I do have to say, I don't particularly 'like' that demographic...
So the persona they are trying to promote is the alcoholic male sloth?
The dumb working slave type that medicates on state approved drugs?
What/why is it that you Americans have to listen to this guy about?
Is he going to tell you all why he gets drunk every day and has spent his whole life perpetuating the slave mentality and fostering belief in countless bigoted and prejudiced ideals?
Man if I had a government trying to talk about Joke Suxpuke I'd probably immigrate. It is bad enough when just some Joe Bloggs tries to preach this shite.

[enjoy being]

Oh, so now it was meant to just mean the average sleeping blue collar MALE, who supposedly should be romanticised for his ineffective participation. He should be held in great esteem for quietly continuing to be a slave and distracting himself with beer. He should be respected for helping to perpetuate along with other generations, the landscape we see.
He was so cool and stoic when he said nothing about this that or the other. People should respect his stupidity and his ability to distract himself with beer and get up every morning reciting his mantras to keep himself thinking he's doing good.

Hurrah for the blue collar MALE worker who settled for mediocrity and failed to stand up for truth and justice and all sorts of things which he has quietly let slip past because of his inability to actually stand up and be counted.

Yeah GO JOE you rock.

Why is this stereotype being trucked out here? and I guess elsewhere?
What is the point being made about old Joe Gonowhere?
I mean, there's the attempt to emotionally tag to the "Blue collar worker running the nation" idea.
That's convenient cherry picking, because as I have candidly outlined, Joe is no more a hero than anyone, most likely less so.
So what is the whole point behind bringing up Joe? Is this still all because someone mentioned guns 3 months ago and Fred is still peaking about it and trying to come in here and grumble about it, seemingly finger pointing at people here for some form of emotional release?

[Octopus Garden]

Joe Six Pack is a bit of a prejorative term to describe blue collar workers. It implies that those who work in the trades are devoid of culture and refinement and their entertainment is limited to beer.

[enjoy being]

Joe Six Pack is a bit of a prejorative term to describe blue collar workers. It implies that those who work in the trades are devoid of culture and refinement and their entertainment is limited to beer.

Right. See that's the one that's making it a bit confusing to me as to where the name is trying to point to when used.
...anyway.

Still.. the universal Joe. Or is it international Joe... Average. What are he and Josephine going to do?

They are great to attach emotional appeals to, like images of the battler or various stokers of the boilers that keep the cogs turning. The unthanked and owed..The model citizen.. such mileage to be made by bringing them into the broadcast!

:-D

[Dumpster Diver]

Joe Six Pack is a bit of a prejorative term to describe blue collar workers. It implies that those who work in the trades are devoid of culture and refinement and their entertainment is limited to beer.

Dude! We also like NASCAR, WWE, and football (but not that candyass Euro crap also known as Soccer).

[Fred Steeves]

They are great to attach emotional appeals to, like images of the battler or various stokers of the boilers that keep the cogs turning. The unthanked and owed..The model citizen.. such mileage to be made by bringing them into the broadcast!

Read into it what you will, I'll stick with the dictionary definition. He is none of those things fresh from your vivid imagination, he's just the average working man. No more no less. I brought Joe up in passing, as he is often overlooked, and looked down upon (as nicely demonstrated here by the way), by the more elite types. Until it's time for politicians on both sides to pander for his vote that is. Other than that he is just the forgotten man.

If you want to know what the big deal about him is, why not ask this out of control moderator why she is so damn triggered by the mere mention of him *one time*, and *one time only*. Oh, and I never said he was armed for bear. But man o man it sure makes for great drama...

Other than that, I think my business here is done for a while (call it running away if it continues to suite this ongoing narrative). Rather than trying to fit in to a setting I can no longer relate to, except of course for the continued study of forums in general, I'm heading down the pub to have a few beers and shoot some 8 ball with Joe and company.

Please carry on.


Cheers :very_drunk:

[Dumpster Diver]

Read into it what you will, I'll stick with the dictionary definition. He is none of those things fresh from your vivid imagination, he's just the average working man. No more no less. I brought Joe up in passing, as he is often overlooked, and looked down upon (as nicely demonstrated here by the way), by the more elite types. Until it's time for politicians on both sides to pander for his vote that is. Other than that he is just the forgotten man.

If you want to know what the big deal about him is, why not ask this out of control moderator why she is so damn triggered by the mere mention of him *one time*, and *one time only*. Oh, and I never said he was armed for bear. But man o man it sure makes for great drama...

Other than that, I think my business here is done for a while (call it running away if it continues to suite this ongoing narrative). Rather than trying to fit in to a setting I can no longer relate to, except of course for the continued study of forums in general, I'm heading down the pub to have a few beers and shoot some 8 ball with Joe and company.

Please carry on.


Cheers :very_drunk:

Fred, don’t leave! By abandoning the field, it amounts to letting them win and your valued view in this direction will go unfiiled.

I’m serious. We all have a function here.

[Aragorn]

Dude!

Um, the eight-armed one is a dudette, Lego Batman. ;)


We also like NASCAR, WWE, and football (but not that candyass Euro crap also known as Soccer).

I happen to seriously dislike soccer, but what you guys call football is only a sissy version of rugby — "sissy" because of all the body armor your American football players wear. :p





Read into it what you will, I'll stick with the dictionary definition. He is none of those things fresh from your vivid imagination, he's just the average working man. No more no less. I brought Joe up in passing, as he is often overlooked, and looked down upon (as nicely demonstrated here by the way), by the more elite types. Until it's time for politicians on both sides to pander for his vote that is. Other than that he is just the forgotten man.

I've tried to stay out of this debate, but that would be my definition of Joe Sixpack as well: the common man, appealed unto at election time and forgotten about again as soon as the elections are over. ;)

[Dumpster Diver]

Dude! Football is ALL about the armor. Sexy looking and generates more violent hits! I don’t even want to talk about those homoerotic rugby shorts...

[Aragorn]

Dude! Football is ALL about the armor. Sexy looking and generates more violent hits! I don’t even want to talk about those homoerotic rugby shorts...



https://i.giphy.com/media/XsUtdIeJ0MWMo/source.gif

[Emil El Zapato]

Oh, I see now it really is meant to mean six pack of beer. Groans.
I do have to say, I don't particularly 'like' that demographic...
So the persona they are trying to promote is the alcoholic male sloth?
The dumb working slave type that medicates on state approved drugs?
What/why is it that you Americans have to listen to this guy about?
Is he going to tell you all why he gets drunk every day and has spent his whole life perpetuating the slave mentality and fostering belief in countless bigoted and prejudiced ideals?
Man if I had a government trying to talk about Joke Suxpuke I'd probably immigrate. It is bad enough when just some Joe Bloggs tries to preach this shite.

that's hilarious Nothing, but that is part of the persona, I think you are hitting on the ambiguity of the term and making good points about them... :)


Oh, so now it was meant to just mean the average sleeping blue collar MALE, who supposedly should be romanticised for his ineffective participation. He should be held in great esteem for quietly continuing to be a slave and distracting himself with beer. He should be respected for helping to perpetuate along with other generations, the landscape we see.
He was so cool and stoic when he said nothing about this that or the other. People should respect his stupidity and his ability to distract himself with beer and get up every morning reciting his mantras to keep himself thinking he's doing good.

Hurrah for the blue collar MALE worker who settled for mediocrity and failed to stand up for truth and justice and all sorts of things which he has quietly let slip past because of his inability to actually stand up and be counted.

Yeah GO JOE you rock.

Why is this stereotype being trucked out here? and I guess elsewhere?
What is the point being made about old Joe Gonowhere?
I mean, there's the attempt to emotionally tag to the "Blue collar worker running the nation" idea.
That's convenient cherry picking, because as I have candidly outlined, Joe is no more a hero than anyone, most likely less so.
So what is the whole point behind bringing up Joe? Is this still all because someone mentioned guns 3 months ago and Fred is still peaking about it and trying to come in here and grumble about it, seemingly finger pointing at people here for some form of emotional release?

That's close to the truth...conditions, conditions create this circumstance, but in a real sense someone has to fill the role. Sort of analogous to herbivores filling the ecological niche as food. Therein lies the circumstance that invites sympathy. It's tough in a real sense being a Joe Six-Pack.

[enjoy being]

Illustrated a few versions of 'Joe' for the cause. The still slurred version of a 'common' person. (man this is like pulling teeth)
The same old rhetoric. A reality which most people can see a mile away. The common, (western?) person.
Never mind the sixpack descriptor. We'll just go with the well used Joe Average. For whatever reason. Which is still what I am wondering. Joe Soapbox? Joe Cliche? Joe Popcorn?
And within each integer between average to elite we have dirt bags and diamonds amongst all so called divisions.
Divisions are so easy to make eh, especially when people want to play up to it with tantrums and lockouts. :banana:

[Emil El Zapato]

Read into it what you will, I'll stick with the dictionary definition. He is none of those things fresh from your vivid imagination, he's just the average working man. No more no less. I brought Joe up in passing, as he is often overlooked, and looked down upon (as nicely demonstrated here by the way), by the more elite types. Until it's time for politicians on both sides to pander for his vote that is. Other than that he is just the forgotten man.

If you want to know what the big deal about him is, why not ask this out of control moderator why she is so damn triggered by the mere mention of him *one time*, and *one time only*. Oh, and I never said he was armed for bear. But man o man it sure makes for great drama...

Other than that, I think my business here is done for a while (call it running away if it continues to suite this ongoing narrative). Rather than trying to fit in to a setting I can no longer relate to, except of course for the continued study of forums in general, I'm heading down the pub to have a few beers and shoot some 8 ball with Joe and company.

Please carry on.


Cheers :very_drunk:

cmon' Fred, you are not alone here...I was considered one of the best 8-ball shooters in the town that I grew up. Actually, at one time I considered going pro...I got a job instead. :)

[GraceKB]

Oh, I see now it really is meant to mean six pack of beer. Groans.
I do have to say, I don't particularly 'like' that demographic...
So the persona they are trying to promote is the alcoholic male sloth?
The dumb working slave type that medicates on state approved drugs?
What/why is it that you Americans have to listen to this guy about?
Is he going to tell you all why he gets drunk every day and has spent his whole life perpetuating the slave mentality and fostering belief in countless bigoted and prejudiced ideals?
Man if I had a government trying to talk about Joke Suxpuke I'd probably immigrate. It is bad enough when just some Joe Bloggs tries to preach this shite.

:ha: I love this post.

[palooka's revenge]

...... It's tough in a real sense being a Joe Six-Pack.

that's exactly the way joe 'n jo like it. just ask 'em. "i'm poor but i'm proud" 'n all that self limiting self talk...

[palooka's revenge]

... Is he going to tell you all why he gets drunk every day and has spent his whole life perpetuating the slave mentality and fostering belief in countless bigoted and prejudiced ideals?

yup, sure is. but only indirectly cuz nobody sez poor me intentionally. and with a heavy dose of blame plastered on the end of the pointed finger.

like i said, just ask 'em...

[Wind]

I concluded from this discussion that Joe sure likes his beer. :rolleyes:

[Emil El Zapato]

lol, joe definitely loves his beer.

Here's a funny stat...

My hometown was named the No. 1 per capita beer guzzling city in America...Back in the 60's in a Playboy article...yeah, really!

[GraceKB]

I concluded from this discussion that Joe sure likes his beer. :rolleyes:

And guns.

[Emil El Zapato]

Beer and guns...now there's a great combination...

[Dreamtimer]

I see the dynamic behind why Modwiz doesn't like to post. People read stuff into what people write that has nothing to do with what he was saying or thinking.

I was under the impression the topic of Joe was important.

I'm still speaking directly to you, Fred. Apparently you can't be bothered to return the courtesy. No problem.

I know plenty of Joe's myself. Joe's who don't mind a discussion about the dynamics surrounding class and culture. Joe's who don't mind a debate. It's cool.

[Aragorn]

I concluded from this discussion that Joe sure likes his beer. :rolleyes:

And guns.

Hmm... No, not necessarily. Not the way I myself see Joe Sixpack, and believe me, we've got plenty of them around here in the severely gun-restricted Europe as well. ;)





I know plenty of Joe's myself. Joe's who don't mind a discussion about the dynamics surrounding class and culture. Joe's who don't mind a debate. It's cool.

No, that's not Joe either. Joe is a guy who never bothered to get an extended education. He may be opinionated — and if so, he'll tell you all about his opinions over a couple of beers — but he's not really interested in any type of academic debate.

Now, a debate about soccer teams or possibly about motorcycles or automobiles, or even about wimmins, that's a whole other issue. :p

[Dumpster Diver]

I see the dynamic behind why Modwiz doesn't like to post. People read stuff into what people write that has nothing to do with what he was saying or thinking.

I was under the impression the topic of Joe was important.

I'm still speaking directly to you, Fred. Apparently you can't be bothered to return the courtesy. No problem.

I know plenty of Joe's myself. Joe's who don't mind a discussion about the dynamics surrounding class and culture. Joe's who don't mind a debate. It's cool.

Thanks! :batman


Beer and guns...now there's a great combination...

...don’t forget football. Btw, this works with EuroTrash Joes too.

[GraceKB]

Hmm... No, not necessarily. Not the way I myself see Joe Sixpack, and believe me, we've got plenty of them around here in the severely gun-restricted Europe as well. ;)



If the gun restricted European Joe Sixpack lived here I bet he'd start stockpiling. It's an integral part of the mindset, imo.

[Dreamtimer]

For the sake of clarity I will say that the OP contains results from a StartPage search on the term. I pulled quotes from several divergent sources. They are from recent articles, i.e. beer prices and economic indexes; and somewhat older ones, i.e. political.

I never personally defined the term.

I don't have a personal definition other than an average guy (whatever that is) or someone who specifically refers to themself that way.

I have no opinions about this type because I have to know a person first before I form an opinion. As far as groups go, my opinions would be based on the actions of said group and whether their stated values are in alignment or not.

[palooka's revenge]

lol, joe definitely loves his beer.

Here's a funny stat...

My hometown was named the No. 1 per capita beer guzzling city in America...Back in the 60's in a Playboy article...yeah, really!

that sounds like madison wisconsin, home of U of W where, back in the day, they sold beer at the student union. I think it was PB that put U of W at the top of the list of party schools in the nation...

[Emil El Zapato]

good point, I've posted about this before, Emporia, Kansas...small town with two medium-sized universities and plenty of Joes. Gale Frierson might have some insight into this phenomenon, though I highly suspect he's never imbibed in his life.

[Dreamtimer]

This thread is making me thirsty. Did you know that the Guiness in America is way substandard to the Guiness in Ireland?

In Ireland, it's rich and so creamy. It's so smooth. American Guiness just isn't quite the same. They changed it a bit for the American market. Sigh.

[Dumpster Diver]

This thread is making me thirsty. Did you know that the Guiness in America is way substandard to the Guiness in Ireland?

In Ireland, it's rich and so creamy. It's so smooth. American Guiness just isn't quite the same. They changed it a bit for the American market. Sigh.

Josephine Six Pack?

[Emil El Zapato]

This thread is making me thirsty. Did you know that the Guiness in America is way substandard to the Guiness in Ireland?

In Ireland, it's rich and so creamy. It's so smooth. American Guiness just isn't quite the same. They changed it a bit for the American market. Sigh.

I mentioned one time about a beer I was drinking...I refer to it as the best 'natural' beer I've ever tasted. Whatever that means, I'm no connoisseur, just a wannabe soak, as a PhD friend of mine referred to it. Aragorn knows the brand...really good stuff.

[Aragorn]

I mentioned one time about a beer I was drinking...I refer to it as the best 'natural' beer I've ever tasted. Whatever that means, I'm no connoisseur, just a wannabe soak, as a PhD friend of mine referred to it. Aragorn knows the brand...really good stuff.

Carlsberg? Tuborg? ;) Or was it a Belgian beer? ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

Ach du lieber...It think its 'Blue Moon' belgium...

[Aragorn]

Ach du lieber...It think its 'Blue Moon' belgium...

Yeah, but in spite of its name, that's not actually a Belgian beer. ;) As you can read here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Moon_%28beer%29), it's actually brewed and bottled in the USA. ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

Yeah, but in spite of its name, that's not actually a Belgian beer. ;) As you can read here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Moon_%28beer%29), it's actually brewed and bottled in the USA. ;)

they didn't even bother to steal the ingredients?

[Aragorn]

Yeah, but in spite of its name, that's not actually a Belgian beer. ;) As you can read here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Moon_%28beer%29), it's actually brewed and bottled in the USA. ;)

they didn't even bother to steal the ingredients?

Nope, they just copied the recipe of what we call "witbier" and then adapted that to the US market. ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

Nope, they just copied the recipe of what we call "witbier" and then adapted that to the US market. ;)

well that's bogus...witbier ... that sounds like a pejorative...Well, I like it but what would you expect from someone that gets most of their meals from MacDougal's

Would you believe I can't get to a site explaining the qualities of the bier...crazy!

[Aragorn]

well that's bogus...witbier ... that sounds like a pejorative... [...]

The term "witbier" literally means "white beer", because many of the beers brewed in Belgium are rather dark in color. The most famous Belgian "witbier" is Hoegaarden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoegaarden_Brewery). It's quite bitter in taste. ;)

[Emil El Zapato]

The term "witbier" literally means "white beer", because many of the beers brewed in Belgium are rather dark in color. The most famous Belgian "witbier" is Hoegaarden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoegaarden_Brewery). It's quite bitter in taste. ;)

ahh...

[Dumpster Diver]

Well, all American beer is copied from the European beers...and then the ‘Mericans finally fingered out folks like differing beers to taste and will pay for it (just like in Europe for the last several centuries) and the American “craft beer” industry started and the sales of Budweiser tanked.

[Dreamtimer]

BURP

Brewers United for Real Potables.

I have a BURP glass.


Weird thing about the Joes. My parents and brother don't think average or regular is much to write home about. They think the people that matter are the ones that stand out. They always wanted to be with the special people or in the clubs or in some way exclusive.

The average Joe is being used by the politicians and business types.

[Octopus Garden]

Joe Six Pack reduces many people who work with their hands down to a stereotype. I didn't go to university and when I did work it was always at jobs that were so damned difficult. Hard on the nerves, hard on the body, and hard on the ego.

Not fun. I think it's important to understand that one of reason that many blue collar people are sensitive about stereotypes is not just 'hurt feelings,' it could be an underlying sense that they're beimg targeted for elimination, or at best the liberal elite will default to inaction or inappropriate actions that will further threaten them.

Survival threats, like conditions of despair in the heartland, where people are dying of fentanyl overdoses, where greed and govt ineptitude following the last economic crisis, created a situation where people couldn't get mortgages. Houses were purchased for cash by those with means, into a vast customer base of former owners forced into default, who were then forced to rent. Strong demand forced rental prices sky high. More despair hitting "Joe Six Pack" disproportionately.

Woven into the fabric of hopelessness and loss of purpose that underemployment engenders are threads of contempt from those in prosperous coastal regions who are well educated (formally). So discussing Joe Six Pack as almost a separate species is alarming indeed.

[Emil El Zapato]

That's probably true and that's a deeply embedded result of very effective programming.

The liberal elite merely want to see Joe, Josephine, Juan, Juanita, Jomo, and Jonice all treated equally and that apparently is a problem for Joe, Josephine, Juan, Juanita, Jomo and Jonice. The otherside would just as soon see them all go away with the exception of Joe and Josephine. They've relied on that demographic group to vote themselves into oblivion for over 50 years.

[Dreamtimer]

How come people don't complain about the Conservative Elite?

They're pretty darn elite. I know 'cause I've seen it first-hand.

Religious elite, economic elite, social elite.

Logically, it's rather ludicrous to have that label attached to liberals.

[Aragorn]

How come people don't complain about the Conservative Elite?

They're pretty darn elite. I know 'cause I've seen it first-hand.

Religious elite, economic elite, social elite.

Logically, it's rather ludicrous to have that label attached to liberals.

I understood that NotAPretender was talking of politicians and power brokers who call themselves "liberal", as in "US Democrats" — e.g. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, George Soros, the late David Rockefeller, et al.

I don't think NotAPretender was talking of the real, grassroots liberals. ;)

[Octopus Garden]

The liberal elite perhaps want to see people treated equally along racial lines, or at least this appears to be the case. And as the coastal cities are great examples of economic apartheid, it's an ideal that is easily talked but not necessarily 'walked' They are perfectly happy with class divisions though and sneering, frowning and referring to Trump supporters as 'deplorables.'

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Trump lover!

[Emil El Zapato]

The liberal elite perhaps want to see people treated equally along racial lines, or at least this appears to be the case. And as the coastal cities are great examples of economic apartheid, it's an ideal that is easily talked but not necessarily 'walked' They are perfectly happy with class divisions though and sneering, frowning and referring to Trump supporters as 'deplorables.'

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Trump lover!

No, I"m with you...but if you haven't noticed...Trump's crowd are decidedly deplorable...I don't know why that statement was never clarified...just another reason to lose the election I guess.


The liberal elite perhaps want to see people treated equally along racial lines, or at least this appears to be the case. And as the coastal cities are great examples of economic apartheid, it's an ideal that is easily talked but not necessarily 'walked' They are perfectly happy with class divisions though and sneering, frowning and referring to Trump supporters as 'deplorables.'

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Trump lover!

But really, there are all kinds of forces pulling to and fro and the final deciderer is "Who really has the power to move the economy!"

[Octopus Garden]

NotaPretender,

The Hillary crowd just as deplorable. Most of is are pretty deplorable, aren't we?:headspin:

[Dreamtimer]

I have a family member who tried to take some inheritance from another. This person thought they deserved more or could use it better or whatever excuse they had. They lied to other family members about what they were doing.

When they were caught, they doubled down and just kept trying to get away with it. They only stopped once lawyers were involved. Not because they decided to do the right thing.

The doubling down on wrong is at the heart of what's deplorable. You know you're wrong, you don't give a crap, and you just do it more, stronger, harder. You 'stay the course' because you don't give a crap.


It's not a 'both sides' thing, imo.

When a woman goes to a rally wearing a shirt saying 'He can grab my ***** anytime', that's deplorable. It has no place in family values or making America great.

When Evangelical leaders are supporting a guy who is the polar opposite of their values, then they've sold out and that's deplorable.


The neo-nazis, in this country, have a very long history of organization and bringing forth social change, or stopping it. There is no equivalent on the left. There is no such parallel drive on the left. There is no parallel KKK.

The Southerners were Democrats when I was a child. That was long, long ago. They've all gone to the right.

The South is the source and heart of the KKK. Neo-nazis aren't liberal.

If we're talking about left-wing extremism, we're most certainly not talking about liberal.

[Emil El Zapato]

Honestly, there is a lot of truth to that...but, a big butt it is...

How long have the forces that be been trying to put Bill and Hillary in a jail cell...Go back over their history from legitimate sources so you are able to start from a truer picture. I would say no, not even close...not really. Now it's my turn...don't misunderstand me, I am no Bill and Hillary lover. But they are far from the demonic characters they have painted by the right.

Trump and his gang are falling like dead flies.

[Aragorn]

Emphasis with bold typeface is mine...


Honestly, there is a lot of truth to that...but, a big butt it is...

Freudian slip? :ttr:

[Wind]

Well, the Clintons are responsible for many deaths and I wouldn't take that lightly. Then again, they're not the only ones with lots of blood on their conscience.

Obama was a nice corporate package, surely a charismatic character... But yet so full of empty promises. Hillary would have been ten times worse than that.

[GraceKB]

Obama promised change but carried on the same policies of the Bush administration. Trump promised to MAGA but is carrying on with the same policies from the Obama administration. They aren't two opposing parties, they are one party under the thumb of the ruling elite. The ruling elite doesn't operate in terms of liberal and conservative. Those are contrived differences used to 1.) make us think we have a choice when we vote blue or red and 2.) keep us at each others throats.

It's worked seamlessly for decades.

[enjoy being]

You are not a number. You are important.

Okay I just dragged this old bit of writing out. It is pretty detailed and boring regards my ancestors, but in the hope of making example. It was written for a kiwi audience..
I haven't reread it for ages. I just got the inclination to post it now, this was the thread I ended up choosing, but there's probably a few conversation it could be dropped in.


The Fruits of our hard work. The Soapbox series.

*

How are you and yours relevant? You are. You might have forgotten, or never thought of it this way, or just accept it humbly as you should and expect all others to quietly also know their heritage and whakapapa.

*

How shall I write this. Lets make it a bit of an address or a letter. I'll use an example of a fairly average person in NZ addressing an audience. To keep it real so I have to keep to a real person, we'll make that person myself.

*

**Greetings everyone, I have been asked to put down in words, a brief outline on who I am, where I come from, and where I expect to be going. It is a thing which I tend to put in the back of my mind yet hold dear. If not for my own sense of purpose, then for the sake of respect to those not just in my family, who came before me. I am not talking of anything magnificent or worthy of boasting about, I am attempting to pragmatically demonstrate how easily it can be shown that the citizens of this nation really are the rightful heirs to their nations wealth and prosperity. I would also add, that this does not mean we, those alive now, have the right to gorge ourselves on the fruits planted by our ancestors, for they too were once us, on the platform supplied by their relations. So this is not a take over, no demand to split the treasure now, cut and run. It is just really putting everything back in its place. A reminder of landscape.-

**I am a descendant of several early settlers, the earliest of which arrived in New Plymouth aboard the William Hyde in 1852. Another branch of descendants were settled in Canterbury by 1878. The branch whose surname I carry, started in Wellington in 1896 when my Great Great Grandfather married the daughter of a railway labourer who had been in New Zealand since 1874, arriving on the ship, Golden Sea. There are more but that should be sufficient for the purpose.

**It is here I wish to make mention of what motivates us, or what motivated our ancestors really.

New Zealand, a place for new beginnings and hopes to build a future for our children. And our children's children. And.. so on. My ancestors, some of them still work the same land that they first arrived to. I have read a journal written by another person's great great grandfather, who was part of the same community in which my oldest New Zealand relatives lived, and got a deeper understanding of how they all worked together to do what needed to be done to bring about the farmland that you would see today. I also will make mention of the railway, which by mention of my Great great grandmothers family, I will also stake a claim as being one of the children of his future, that her father would have been motivated by.

**But let's shrink it back to recent relatives. The Grandparents. One set holding two prominent farming families who continue today. And the other set, a dairy factory manager from the late 40's to the late 60's, his wife, my Nana, the daughter of Canterbury traders. During that time as a dairy factory manager, my Grandfather was involved in the upskilling period of milk production and made several unofficial innovations in many areas involving things from refrigeration to hose couplings.

**If you know your history of the New Zealand dairy farming industry, you will know that Taranaki and the Waikato are to many extents, the nucleus of that which we now have today. It's land, and the hard work of its people, saw it becoming the largest production area of dairy from the get go. These two provinces grew and grew, and then they started amalgamating within themselves, going from what at one point was approximately 240 co-operative dairy factories between them, to just one huge one each. Their huge production capabilities paving the way for our reputation on the world stage. The fruits of 1000's of lives labour. It was in 1992 that Taranaki co-ops became one, and they soon started buying out companies in the South Island and the Eastern North Island.

**Then in 2001, the two companies from Waikato and Taranaki amalgamated into one and became Fonterra, one of the worlds largest dairy companies.

**I never got to meet my grandfather who was a factory manager, his life was cut short 6 months after I was born when he was hit by a car in Auckland as he ran to catch the public transport on his car-less day in 1975. I am so very glad he got to meet me though. The chance to see some of the results of all his hard work.

*

**This is not any story out of the ordinary. I am sorry if it was perhaps even a bit bland and lacking in heroics. There was heroics too, the other grandfather served in WW2 like so many others of that age. He received lots of medals, but in my book I selfishly think he was a hero because he came back, a little changed, but not so bad as others, and then fathered his first child, my mother. Because it does have to keep going doesn't it. The things which keep us going are things in our hearts.

*

Each of us have come from such sacrifices of our past families, we were their hope before they even knew it.

These things are precious.

We are the ones they did it all for.

Legacies which have taken centuries and even longer, yet today we are told we have no ownership.

We are often treated as unfortunate realities standing in the way.

Just mere citizens who have no connection to the riches which our modern nation can claim.

Much of it now sold out from beneath us overnight.

Tens of 1000's of people roll in their graves.

It makes me sad to imagine what they would think upon seeing what has happened to their dreams.

*

*

[Emil El Zapato]

Well, the Clintons are responsible for many deaths and I wouldn't take that lightly. Then again, they're not the only ones with lots of blood on their conscience.

Obama was a nice corporate package, surely a charismatic character... But yet so full of empty promises. Hillary would have been ten times worse than that.

Obama...no not empty promises...he came to office with two 'agendas'.

Health insurance for the masses and to be President of the United States, not president of the minority population. He fullfilled both promises. Every judgment he made was well balanced and REAL.


Emphasis with bold typeface is mine...



Freudian slip? :ttr:

nah, just playing 'cause it seemed appropriate... :)


Obama promised change but carried on the same policies of the Bush administration. Trump promised to MAGA but is carrying on with the same policies from the Obama administration. They aren't two opposing parties, they are one party under the thumb of the ruling elite. The ruling elite doesn't operate in terms of liberal and conservative. Those are contrived differences used to 1.) make us think we have a choice when we vote blue or red and 2.) keep us at each others throats.

It's worked seamlessly for decades.

He carried on 'some' of the Bush policies...He tried to the max to close Guantanamo and was stopped in his tracks by full effort by the right. The drone attacks were a practical necessity...not pretty, but necessary. He tried to disengage gracefully from the Middle East and the right wouldn't have it...Where did he fail to uphold a promise?


Well, the Clintons are responsible for many deaths and I wouldn't take that lightly. Then again, they're not the only ones with lots of blood on their conscience.

Obama was a nice corporate package, surely a charismatic character... But yet so full of empty promises. Hillary would have been ten times worse than that.

What deaths Wind...I want to investigate that?

[Aragorn]

Obama...no not empty promises...he came to office with two 'agendas'.

Health insurance for the masses and to be President of the United States, not president of the minority population. He fullfilled both promises. Every judgment he made was well balanced and REAL.

Um, no, Obama promised that he would have ended the Patriot Act and that he would have closed down Gitmo. And instead of doing either, he silently reaffirmed the Patriot Act, and Gitmo is still operational as we speak — more than 9 years after Obama's first inauguration.

I'll give you that he had agendas alright. They just happened to not be the agendas you think he had. :eyebrows:

[Emil El Zapato]

Um, no, Obama promised that he would have ended the Patriot Act and that he would have closed down Gitmo. And instead of doing either, he reaffirmed the Patriot Act and Gitmo is still operational as we speak, more than 9 years after Obama's first inauguration.

I'll give you that he had agendas alright. They just happened to not be the agendas you think he had. :eyebrows:

The right was blatantly at work to stop everythng...it's all too obvious, I still don't understand how people don't see the reality of this...Maybe it's because I watched everythng unfold like a hawk.

Obama...changed patent law to prevent rules and regulation to prevent people from introducing new 'Fringe' technologies


Um, no, Obama promised that he would have ended the Patriot Act and that he would have closed down Gitmo. And instead of doing either, he silently reaffirmed the Patriot Act, and Gitmo is still operational as we speak — more than 9 years after Obama's first inauguration.

I'll give you that he had agendas alright. They just happened to not be the agendas you think he had. :eyebrows:

I rarely overlook things like that ... :)

[Aragorn]

Um, no, Obama promised that he would have ended the Patriot Act and that he would have closed down Gitmo. And instead of doing either, he silently reaffirmed the Patriot Act, and Gitmo is still operational as we speak — more than 9 years after Obama's first inauguration.

The right was blatantly at work to stop everythng...

As president, Obama had the privilege of overruling whatever the right — or more appropriately termed, "the farther right", because the US Democrats are also a right-wing and authoritarian party — could come up with. And yet he didn't.

But okay, there's no point in mulling over that now. What's done is done, and now you've got a racist Mafia don in the White House.

[GraceKB]

Obama's agenda was to carry on the agenda set down for him by the powers that be.

They are just placeholders.

[Emil El Zapato]

Um, no, Obama promised that he would have ended the Patriot Act and that he would have closed down Gitmo. And instead of doing either, he silently reaffirmed the Patriot Act, and Gitmo is still operational as we speak — more than 9 years after Obama's first inauguration.

I'll give you that he had agendas alright. They just happened to not be the agendas you think he had. :eyebrows:

He was stopped in his tracks by the right...stopped.period. He tried like hell.

The Patriot act is another matter. If one starts from the point that Obama was one of the most principled individuals to ever hold office...I believe that.

He must have realized after becoming President and the attendant briefings that it was best to leave it in place to deal with the opposing mass screaming from the left to rid the country of it and the right's screaming that we must be kept safe. The only sane decision is to save lives. Thus the decision. Easy peezy


Obama's agenda was to carry on the agenda set down for him by the powers that be.

They are just placeholders.

No doubt there is much truth to that. But, as I commented once upon a time..."Even a slave can be resistant!"

[Aragorn]

Obama's agenda was to carry on the agenda set down for him by the powers that be.

They are just placeholders.

Exactly, because no one gets to reside at the White House without their approval. The Orange Hair Dude™ on the other hand got in because of a cloaked coup d'état by the US oligarchs and (literally) the Mafia, which they carried out by manipulating the elections, most likely with help from their Russian oligarch counterparts — whom they stabbed in the back later and have been antagonizing again since.

[GraceKB]

Granted, some of the placeholders are easier to abide than others, lol.

[enjoy being]

Im often astounded how seemingly intelligent people still buy into the oppositions and dramas of politics and launch themselves with fervor at the new rulers as heroes.. then seem surprised when they have to admit that the hero turned out to be just like all the others before.

[Emil El Zapato]

Im often astounded how seemingly intelligent people still buy into the oppositions and dramas of politics and launch themselves with fervor at the new rulers as heroes.. then seem surprised when they have to admit that the hero turned out to be just like all the others before.

:) Nope...Careful examination is truly a requirement. Just sticking one's wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing will simply not do.

[enjoy being]

:) Nope...Careful examination is truly a requirement. Just sticking one's wet finger in the air to see which way the wind is blowing will simply not do.

Huh?

Nope , I'll stay with being astounded etc etc. Do what you like, I'll stick with my own words.

[Emil El Zapato]

Huh?

Nope , I'll stay with being astounded etc etc. Do what you like, I'll stick with my own words.

lol, if you insist... :)

[Wind]

What deaths Wind...I want to investigate that?

I'm surprised that you wouldn't know! You need to do your homework.

I don't want to get too metaphysical about this either, but I have the ability to see and sense how people are - besides having studied human psychology. Hillary is a very dangerous psychopath, human lives doen't mean a thing to her. She is incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, it's almost like the soul is missing from her. His husband... Perhaps only a pervert, but probably more than that too. That is just not only my opinion. I don't want to focus on dark matters like these too much, but I need to speak the truth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgZI49J_tF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE8PG2mpo58

[Emil El Zapato]

I'm surprised that you wouldn't know! You need to do your homework.

I don't want to get too metaphysical about this either, but I have the ability to see and sense how people are - besides having studied human psychology. Hillary is a very dangerous psychopath, human lives doen't mean a thing to her. She is incapable of feeling remorse or guilt, it's almost like the soul is missing from her. His husband... Perhaps only a pervert, but probably more than that too. That is just not only my opinion. I don't want to focus on dark matters like these too much, but I need to speak the truth.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgZI49J_tF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE8PG2mpo58

No, I meant sources as credentialed historians with no agenda?

[Wind]

Not sure what you might mean by that. There's plenty of info to be found though.

[Emil El Zapato]

Not sure what you might mean by that. There's plenty of info to be found though.

:)

[Wind]

I know that sometimes it's hard to believe some things, I'm not interested to convince anyone though.

[Dumpster Diver]

Christoper Hitchens: Gawd, I could listen to that man talk about anything, even when I was in violent disagreement.

My favorite quote:

“My own view is that this planet is used as a penal colony, lunatic asylum and dumping ground by a superior civilization, to get rid of the undesirable and unfit. I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either.”

[Wind]

Now that made me laugh! There's a lot that I could disagree with him too (especially atheism), but he sure knew what he was talking about when it comes to the Clintons.

[Dreamtimer]

This guy talks about Joe Six Pack, I think he says average Joe, and the alt-right and more. Most importantly, communication.

Well worth the 18 minutes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqUaEJLfrLo