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Fred Steeves
13th December 2017, 18:15
Anyone that half way knows me, knows I like to stir up the old shit pot every now and zen.

Question: In the midst of this current movement, would there be any public appetite for a man stepping forward to say "me too"?

Personally I don't think it fits the parameter of the narrative, and would be DOA; but I'm curious what you think, especially the ladies. :)

1930 1931

NotAPretender
13th December 2017, 20:24
Always picking on the liberals Fred...what a pity that no one ever takes pictures in public bathrooms... :)

Disclaimer: I'm half asleep on my feet right now... :)

If anyone has a complaint, now is the time to strike. I'm sure there are many. Something did occur to me, though. The notion of 'bypassing' in communication is a significant issue. For example, two people are talking and thinking they are eye-to-eye and on the same wavelength but they're not and then out of embarassment we start a war.

I've been listening to women complain about 'disrespect' for God knows how many years and part of that time I was unsympathetic, and then I became indifferent, and then I woke up (kinda). Blame it on programming (I always have) but women feel intrinsically different about these issues. Who knows, it could be genetic, but women are not 'physically' predisposed to take a nonchalant attitude towards 'grabbing'. Men certainly do, with each other and with women. Women don't like it...I..I..I guessss?!

modwiz
13th December 2017, 21:12
Always picking on the liberals Fred...what a pity that no one ever takes pictures in public bathrooms... :)

Disclaimer: I'm half asleep on my feet right now... :)

If anyone has a complaint, now is the time to strike. I'm sure there are many. Something did occur to me, though. The notion of 'bypassing' in communication is a significant issue. For example, two people are talking and thinking they are eye-to-eye and on the same wavelength but they're not and then out of embarassment we start a war.

I've been listening to women complain about 'disrespect' for God knows how many years and part of that time I was unsympathetic, and then I became indifferent, and then I woke up (kinda). Blame it on programming (I always have) but women feel intrinsically different about these issues. Who knows, it could be genetic, but women are not 'physically' predisposed to take a nonchalant attitude towards 'grabbing'. Men certainly do, with each other and with women. Women don't like it...I..I..I guessss?!

Some of us have escaped the contrivance of politics and therefore see with eyes that do not see labels and some still languish in this contrivance.. Your language reveals which of the 'some' you are.

Dreamtimer
13th December 2017, 21:22
I think men already have, Fred. In fact, before this whole Me Too thing, TargeT was already talking about how men get raped more than women and that they're actually the disposable ones. He has posted about it and also talked about it on one of the TOT-casts saying that men's lives matter less.

I don't really agree. They take the risks and they have decision-making powers. Women just don't have the power. Not yet anyway.

And this current wave which has had momentum since the women's march right after the inauguration is in fact a sea change. I know others are already using that phrase but I haven't thought of a better one yet.

My son and most of his friends would never abuse or even discriminate against women. They just weren't raised that way. The new generations will be different and women won't have to be like men in a men's world anymore. They can naturally network and sustain rather than always consume and compete and grow unnaturally.



NAP, women don't like it, you guess? That's interesting.

As a young woman I didn't like men grabbing me because if I didn't say anything then I was a slut and if I did protest I was a bitch and a cold fish and on and on. It's a lose/lose. If others see you getting grabbed and assume you 'wanted it' then maybe you want other things. Men can't help but take things as encouragement. If you give them a polite smile they think you're flirting. Maybe you get accused of sending mixed signals.

Do people really not recall the whole "It's her fault, her sweater was too tight" thing? Really? I'm not that old.

Why in the world would I want some man I don't know grabbing my body or trying to stick his tongue down my throat? What if he's a lot bigger than me? He could hurt me. I could be frightened, intimidated, etc. It could remind me of some very unpleasant family experiences. There are all kinds of reasons a woman doesn't want a guy to be sexual when it's not the time or place.

It's not exactly pleasant to have someone just grab your crotch. They're sensitive things. It's not a pleasurable experience. It's a violation and it's gross and offensive.

Do men not know how to seduce with words and smiles and romantic stuff? Really?

NotAPretender
13th December 2017, 22:22
Some of us have escaped the contrivance of politics and therefore see with eyes that do not see labels and some still languish in this contrivance.. Your language reveals which of the 'some' you are.

:lol:

Hi Dreamtimer,

that was satire... :) but it is at least a small step to get from knowing to 'feeling' and then at least another step to get to sympathetic. Admittedly, it's been a LONG road for me. But it is time and it is happening, we are changing as a society and I, for one, am always a proponent for the new and improved.

I think you've made a great point though...With proper respect, everyone can be what their spirit tells them to be...Nice.

Amanda
14th December 2017, 00:29
I think the key word here is: Respect. Grabbing me - never. Not for a joke not for fun - never. I would likewise never grab anyone. The art of being funny and of being fun - now there is a lost art if ever there was one. Yes/No/Maybe?

Much Peace & Much Respect - Amanda

Maggie
14th December 2017, 01:05
Women just don't have the power. Not yet anyway.

And this current wave which has had momentum since the women's march right after the inauguration is in fact a sea change. I know others are already using that phrase but I haven't thought of a better one yet.

My son and most of his friends would never abuse or even discriminate against women. They just weren't raised that way. The new generations will be different and women won't have to be like men in a men's world anymore. They can naturally network and sustain rather than always consume and compete and grow unnaturally.

NAP, women don't like it, you guess? That's interesting.

Do people really not recall the whole "It's her fault, her sweater was too tight" thing? Really? I'm not that old.


I certainly don't think women who dress for fashion and seek social popularity and who flirt are "asking" to be grabbed. I am a woman and when I was young, I was very pretty (humbly admitted). I was not into flirting and I wore glasses. My interest was in ideas and ideals and my crushes were all brainiacs. I guess you could say I was the "librarian" type. My relationships with men were egalitarian because I was not playing with anyone who was like a "frat boy". I had boyfriends and as much attention as I wanted (which was very little wanted) and I was not grabbed, ogled and also, I was far from "popular" which suited me fine.

I was and still am a feminist (according to my definition). When I was enjoying my younger "socially conscious and political" period, it never occurred to me that the same old NONSENSE is repackaged continuously and treated as if its a new "thing". Seriously I thought we were making permanent alterations towards liberty, egality and fraternity which I cherished. I still love these ideals no matter what anyone says about "co-intel pro" being the basis of all political ideals.

I THOUGHT we were reaching some major enlightenment where the old nonsense was forgotten. I imagined a world with a general consensus that men and women are different but one is not "supposed to rule" the other, I considered the value of all earth life forms a no brainer, the need to cherish children as 'beings", not chattel simply basic ETC...

Gee, I was surprised that these seeming basics to ME would not be seen as such. Unfortunately as I look at how my social world has stayed static (same old problems like mean people doing mean things for reasons they believe will take them forward), I understand the human race less and less. I don't feel the socially constructed world IS any more humane (according to my and only my definition) which means to me humans are not evolving. Evolution is a misguided perspective because IMO the world is made up of people who are only just learning through trial and error to live as human beings.

Human beingness is so much more than the looks of a humanoid body type.
Human beings to me are conscious of being conscious. Human beings IMO know that one's own responsibility is creating our inner thoughts, inner plans and inner intentions and that these then matter TO US. The whole implication of the story is that people have the possibility of being human. I imagine if anything, one would re-incarnate only because people do desire being human. I imagine that if I die a human being, I'll be interested in something different to try.

When I look at the whole issue, I have in my new age become sick and tired of being sick and tired and therefore I am now throwing up my hands (metaphorically) and saying to myself.... I doubt there is any collective evolution possible. Well then, FINE!

It's just FINE if It's each to her (or his) own. Maybe that is as it always is... one by one we get sick and tired of being sick and tired and take our attention to where something actually can change..... What can change is no longer waiting for society to stop being a kennel where many dogs are left untrained and bite.

It's our own responsibility to offer up as intention and behavior what we value and stop looking for a consensus. look how consensus works and it is OBVIOUSLY made up of the most ignorance, the least health and the MOST neurotic opinions IMO.

Therefore my committment now is to being humane, but not to please anyone or prove anything. I am now flippant about the probability that the human race in some whole cloth is progressing. Only individuals who decide >>NOT ME TOO <<and cannot be victimized, cannot be saved, cannot save and MOREOVER don't step on others toes, (much less rape and pillage) do so because we are interested in moving beyond the circular arguments. WE know that what WE OFFER goes around and comes around... and eventually we get sick of the STUPID "gag me" craven low vibes of the mass agreements. So we no longer agree to fit in and hehe hehe, no longer get the fall out of these agreements.

I am stating my case and know it is not any kind of universal statement and that matters NOT ONE JOT... I still get my own offerings.

NotAPretender
14th December 2017, 02:43
that's a great statement. I do think we are evolving...the problem is that only some are, others are a little stuck. And each type tends to congregate with their 'kind'. And the worst offending groups are screaming at the top of their lungs 'they don't wanna go!'. To the detriment of their own genetic material.

modwiz
14th December 2017, 02:55
that's a great statement. I do think we are evolving...the problem is that only some are, others are a little stuck. And each type tends to congregate with their 'kind'. And the worst offending groups are screaming at the top of their lungs 'they don't wanna go!'. To the detriment of their own genetic material.

If we leave politics out of conversations, suddenly our 'own kind' becomes almost everyone:hmm:

I work, play and make music with people I love everyday with people who voted one way or another. Keeping politics out of the conversation. Instead we discuss solutions we should be giving to the criminals in DC to carry out, if we "go there' at all. Political parties are boxes constructed for us but, not by us. It is a fool's game and gooberments are farms for fools. There is no logical reason for us to remain so impotent on our Earth, IMO.

Better cut it out now. Fred wanted to hear from the ladies.

NotAPretender
14th December 2017, 05:18
ok, you got me thinking about the truth of that.... I'll try to contain myself and dispense with the labels... I'm hearing you now. :)

sandy
14th December 2017, 05:57
Gee Fred, I really have to agree with Dreamtimer and Maggie and to hell with public appetite....if you want to say Me too!! say it and don't look for permission..............

Men have their own peer pressures to get passed and to pony up the courage to appear less than APE_LIKE/STOIC/STRONG/UNAFFECTED/NON-CHALANT, ETC........:yoda:........don't wait until you are :very_drunk: or full or rage :ireful: to show your sorrow and loss ...if more of this happened :cry: there would be less violence in the world I suspect. I see only a Human Being when heart is in the lead and my heart opens in return.

We are so afraid of our own emotions and what seems like not being in control when our feelings are on the front burner.....in essence one has never been in more control and more authentic than when identifying and integrating a feeling/vibration into oneness and eventual wholeness. It is called vulnerable, we are so real; it is scary........due to the foreign nature of keeping our inner most feelings out of reach and or at bay at all costs most of the time.

So I have already said Me Too!! and will say it again if it can help shift anyone into a state of feeling, integrating and wholeness. It is call EVOLUTION. :winner: and for all you Me too-er's!! :group hug:

Dreamtimer
14th December 2017, 09:50
I gotta say I do think we are advancing. We have less slavery and women are living in better conditions worldwide. It's a slow change, like Martin Luther King said. But it is positive.

Just a couple centuries ago we were bug ridden, starved and ruled by monarchies and churches. (yes, that is western-centric. I think other parts of the world are doing better too).

I'm pretty sure there's a great deal less actual emasculation going on in the world now as well. (don't look it up unless you have a strong stomach)

Elen
14th December 2017, 11:26
Me too girls (and guys)...how did I deal with it? I cut my long blond hair off, made it short, and it made a big difference! :h5:

Dreamtimer
14th December 2017, 12:22
Wearing glasses is good, too.

Fred Steeves
14th December 2017, 13:12
Gee Fred, I really have to agree with Dreamtimer and Maggie and to hell with public appetite....if you want to say Me too!! say it and don't look for permission..............

Hiya Sandy!

Just to be clear I don't have a Me Too! story. This movement/phenomena both fascinates me on the one hand, and worries me a bit on the other. McCarthyism comes to mind as in yes, there were true commies (as in there are certainly some true scumbags here being exposed), but the bar got low enough, and the appetite voracious enough, to include just about anyone on the political Left unfortunate enough to fall into disfavor.

If I did have a Me Too! story, I doubt very seriously I'd go public with it. I just don't see the appetite for it, any more than there was no appetite for McCarthy to go after Nazi sympathizers for instance. The chips were all on one side of the table. Perhaps not the best analogy, but you catch my drift. :)

Paloma
14th December 2017, 13:57
Wearing glasses is good, too.

Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses....Dorothy Parker

Dreamtimer
14th December 2017, 14:37
I used to believe blonds had more fun. Then I began to understand what that means.

I saw a show once which examined that idea. A beautiful black-haired woman was interviewed who said she was a natural blond and hated it. People treated her like she was stupid and shallow, sexually loose, an object, etc. She said going dark was the best thing she ever did.

I was blond as a child and I turned brown with age. I know many women who were blond as children and continue to dye their hair blond. To each his/her own, eh?


And I heard a woman interviewed who was undergoing a gender reorientation. She recalled a specific mental change which happened once she began testosterone therapy. Before, when she had met a woman she found attractive she wanted to talk to her and get to know her and spend time with her. After, she just couldn't stop thinking about getting her in bed.

Ah, hormones. The more we understand them (and respect them) the better off we'll be.

Fred Steeves
14th December 2017, 15:16
I used to believe blonds had more fun. Then I began to understand what that means.

I saw a show once which examined that idea. A beautiful black-haired woman was interviewed who said she was a natural blond and hated it. People treated her like she was stupid and shallow, sexually loose, an object, etc. She said going dark was the best thing she ever did.

My wife is blond, and smart as a whip let me tell you. On occasion she uses the "dumb blond" stereotype to her advantage when a situation warrants it. Sometimes it's better to get a dumb as rocks look on your face and be considered a dumb bimbo, rather than seen as knowingly doing something that maybe you really shouldn't be doing.

Being pulled over for speeding might be a good example: "I'm so sorry officer (wearing stupid face), my mind was scattered in a million directions and I simply was not paying attention". Officer rolls eyes: "Well mam I'm going to let you off with a warning this time, but you need to pay more attention while operating a motor vehicle".

Dumpster Diver
14th December 2017, 15:22
Frankly, I never got the sexual predator thing. I think getting a person to like you because of who you are was more important rather than getting your rocks off dominating/controlling them. Maybe having been raised by a strong mother made the difference. Looking back, I was so lucky in so many ways.

So, if you can’t keep your hands to yourself, no matter what she is wearing, you need to be outed as a pervert. Karma baby!

Dreamtimer
14th December 2017, 16:36
I had a blond student that was so good at playing stupid that she pulled the wool completely over my eyes. Of course, it was hard for me to understand at that age that a 12-year-old girl would already be so skilled at it. As it turns out, she had her parents fooled too, and she was so spoiled. I got played but it was a great lesson for me.


Dumpy, Seth Meyers was talking about Mike Pence's rules for being around women when in a room with the door closed. Seth said (basically), "If you don't know how to behave and you have to have rules, you shouldn't be alone in a room with her."

Dumpster Diver
14th December 2017, 16:59
I had a blond student that was so good at playing stupid that she pulled the wool completely over my eyes. Of course, it was hard for me to understand at that age that a 12-year-old girl would already be so skilled at it. As it turns out, she had her parents fooled too, and she was so spoiled. I got played but it was a great lesson for me.


Dumpy, Seth Meyers was talking about Mike Pence's rules for being around women when in a room with the door closed. Seth said (basically), "If you don't know how to behave and you have to have rules, you shouldn't be alone in a room with her."

Yeah, what about basic respect for another person? Again, in my belief system, I believe I’m you in another timeline. As some cutie in that timeline, I don’t want some leering lech (also me) messing with me. As the cutie, I’m supposed to find that special partner, not be a 15 minute trophy.

Try to step into the other guy’s shoes. Would you want that?

NotAPretender
14th December 2017, 17:22
Gee Fred, I really have to agree with Dreamtimer and Maggie and to hell with public appetite....if you want to say Me too!! say it and don't look for permission..............

Men have their own peer pressures to get passed and to pony up the courage to appear less than APE_LIKE/STOIC/STRONG/UNAFFECTED/NON-CHALANT, ETC........:yoda:........don't wait until you are :very_drunk: or full or rage :ireful: to show your sorrow and loss ...if more of this happened :cry: there would be less violence in the world I suspect. I see only a Human Being when heart is in the lead and my heart opens in return.

We are so afraid of our own emotions and what seems like not being in control when our feelings are on the front burner.....in essence one has never been in more control and more authentic than when identifying and integrating a feeling/vibration into oneness and eventual wholeness. It is called vulnerable, we are so real; it is scary........due to the foreign nature of keeping our inner most feelings out of reach and or at bay at all costs most of the time.

So I have already said Me Too!! and will say it again if it can help shift anyone into a state of feeling, integrating and wholeness. It is call EVOLUTION. :winner: and for all you Me too-er's!! :group hug:

Great Post, Sandy...your heart is a good one...


Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses....Dorothy Parker

you know, I really don't agree with that. I've was always one of those weirdos that was irrisistably drawn to girls/women that wore glass and with freckles even better...Red hair was the absolute best. Redheads are beautiful.

:)


Me too girls (and guys)...how did I deal with it? I cut my long blond hair off, made it short, and it made a big difference! :h5:

it wouldn't have worked on me... I mean that in a friendly way.... :)


I used to believe blonds had more fun. Then I began to understand what that means.

I saw a show once which examined that idea. A beautiful black-haired woman was interviewed who said she was a natural blond and hated it. People treated her like she was stupid and shallow, sexually loose, an object, etc. She said going dark was the best thing she ever did.

I was blond as a child and I turned brown with age. I know many women who were blond as children and continue to dye their hair blond. To each his/her own, eh?


And I heard a woman interviewed who was undergoing a gender reorientation. She recalled a specific mental change which happened once she began testosterone therapy. Before, when she had met a woman she found attractive she wanted to talk to her and get to know her and spend time with her. After, she just couldn't stop thinking about getting her in bed.

Ah, hormones. The more we understand them (and respect them) the better off we'll be.

well, my daughter (high schooler) has an attractive blonde friend that just had a baby shower...not married...So much for blondes... :)


I had a blond student that was so good at playing stupid that she pulled the wool completely over my eyes. Of course, it was hard for me to understand at that age that a 12-year-old girl would already be so skilled at it. As it turns out, she had her parents fooled too, and she was so spoiled. I got played but it was a great lesson for me.


Dumpy, Seth Meyers was talking about Mike Pence's rules for being around women when in a room with the door closed. Seth said (basically), "If you don't know how to behave and you have to have rules, you shouldn't be alone in a room with her."

Gawd yes...Unless, one WANTS to go to jail... :)

Elen
15th December 2017, 10:24
For obvious reasons...I'm staying out of the "Blond discussion". :p :fpalm:

Dreamtimer
15th December 2017, 14:41
That's 'cause you're smart. Obviously.

Blonde joke: (no offense)

A blonde, a redhead and a brunette were walking down the street. The brunette said, "Oh, look at the dead bird." The redhead looked down. The blonde looked up and around and said, "Where?"

(it's a good joke to tell, you can use physical humor)

Elen
15th December 2017, 15:22
That's 'cause you're smart. Obviously.

Blonde joke: (no offense)

A blonde, a redhead and a brunette were walking down the street. The brunette said, "Oh, look at the dead bird." The redhead looked down. The blonde looked up and around and said, "Where?"

(it's a good joke to tell, you can use physical humor)

Personally, :p I would not look up or down...just straight ahead...who wants to look at dead things. :crazy:

Dreamtimer
15th December 2017, 16:47
Like I said, smart.

I came across and article by an actress, can't recall the name right now, who said "Hell No!" whenever a man/boss/director tried to make her give sex for a role. Once they realized she wouldn't 'roll over' they stopped pushing her. Her advice to women is to stand up for themselves.

I've known men who push and push women simply to see how much they can get away with. Girls gotta have a backbone!

Aragorn
15th December 2017, 17:38
I've known men who push and push women simply to see how much they can get away with.

That's a blade that cuts both ways, Sister. I've known quite a few women like that in my time. :wry:

Dreamtimer
15th December 2017, 18:39
Indeed. How would I say no as a man? It's hard enough as a woman. Honeytraps work well which is why they are used. I was never a gold-digger and never aggressive and forward so I can safely say I never put a man through that. (whether or not they wanted...:whstl:)

Fred Steeves
16th December 2017, 15:35
This is interesting, from one of the latest accused Tavis Smiley. I've never been a fan of his, but I commend his well balanced opinions here:


In a Facebook video posted early Thursday morning, Smiley said he was “shocked” to hear PBS’s sudden announcement and intends to “fight back” against the network’s “so-called investigation.”

He said he has the “utmost respect” for all women, and celebrates “the courage of those women who have come forth of late to share their own truth.”

“Let me also assure you that I have never groped, inappropriately exposed myself or coerced any colleague in the workplace ever in my 30-year career,” Smiley said.

“If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us,” he added in a written statement posted on Facebook.



“It is clear that this has gone too far,” he said. “And I for one intend to fight back. PBS overreacted and they launched a sloppy investigation. It’s time for a real conversation in this country about where the lines are, about how men and women can engage each other in the workplace. And I look forward to actively participating in that conversation.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/13/tavis-smiley-talk-show-suspended-by-pbs-amid-misconduct-allegations/?tid=a_inl

On that last one, where ARE the lines now? Can anyone define them?

Dumpster Diver
16th December 2017, 15:59
PBS and sloppy investigations. It goes together like coffee and donuts. I don't know the guy, but I half hope he burns them down, even if he really is a perv.

The cool thing about bad guy on bad guy interaction is both do damage to the other.

NotAPretender
16th December 2017, 16:20
This is interesting, from one of the latest accused Tavis Smiley. I've never been a fan of his, but I commend his well balanced opinions here:





https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/13/tavis-smiley-talk-show-suspended-by-pbs-amid-misconduct-allegations/?tid=a_inl

On that last one, where ARE the lines now? Can anyone define them?

Hey Fred, we are buzzing now...it isn't a straightforward problem, but it is hard for a man to discuss it without justifiably sounding like a neanderthal... :)

Aragorn
16th December 2017, 16:22
This is interesting, from one of the latest accused Tavis Smiley. I've never been a fan of his, but I commend his well balanced opinions here:


In a Facebook video posted early Thursday morning, Smiley said he was “shocked” to hear PBS’s sudden announcement and intends to “fight back” against the network’s “so-called investigation.”

He said he has the “utmost respect” for all women, and celebrates “the courage of those women who have come forth of late to share their own truth.”

“Let me also assure you that I have never groped, inappropriately exposed myself or coerced any colleague in the workplace ever in my 30-year career,” Smiley said.

“Let me also assure you that I have never groped, inappropriately exposed myself or coerced any colleague in the workplace ever in my 30-year career,” Smiley said.

“If having a consensual relationship with a colleague years ago is the stuff that leads to this kind of public humiliation and personal destruction, heaven help us,” he added in a written statement posted on Facebook.


“It is clear that this has gone too far,” he said. “And I for one intend to fight back. PBS overreacted and they launched a sloppy investigation. It’s time for a real conversation in this country about where the lines are, about how men and women can engage each other in the workplace. And I look forward to actively participating in that conversation.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/12/13/tavis-smiley-talk-show-suspended-by-pbs-amid-misconduct-allegations/?tid=a_inl

On that last one, where ARE the lines now? Can anyone define them?

If you want my opinion, then this is turning out Yet Another Witch Hunt Hype™, just as there have been so many already.


If you are of a somewhat darker complexion, then you are a Muslim terrorist.
If you are friendly to a child, then you are a pedophile.
If you happen to be romantically interested in a colleague, then you are sexually harassing them.

Nothing new under the sun, and you can bet that this whole thing is going to blow over in a couple of months, after which it'll be business as usual again, with the real predators continuing to do what they've been doing all along, and with the same level of impunity.

Don't get me wrong. Sexual harassment is a very real phenomenon — and I maintain what I've said earlier, which is that rape is the worst of all crimes — but what's going on right now is merely that the mainstream media have discovered a new milk cow, and that a couple of the usual busybodies would be standing up in demand of government regulations that would supposedly prevent this sort of thing from happening, like surveillance cameras everywhere, with the whole system — let's be all hip and modern here — powered by an artificial intelligence. (Microsoft has already developed such a system for the work floor.)

And if it were to come to that, then said regulations will once again — as always — make life much more unpleasant for the good people, while the true perverts and freaks will still be getting away with what they're doing. Color me a cynic, but has it ever been any different?


Has the death penalty ever stopped anyone from committing a murder, or brought a murder victim back to life?
Has the incredibly difficult way for Europeans to legally acquire a firearm ever stopped true criminals from acquiring them in the black market?
Has the mass surveillance of the last 16 years managed to prevent the rise of ISIS and the influx of terrorists in western countries?
Has the Catholic rule of abstention before marriage ever stopped Catholic priests from sexually abusing children?

Didn't think so either. :fpalm:

Dreamtimer
16th December 2017, 18:38
I think we're at the time right now where we're figuring out what lines to draw. We're in process. It's been most of my life that this has been happening. When I was a girl you didn't talk about "wife abuse". The idea of a husband being abused was almost taboo.

In the 70s, in one of Clint Eastwood's movies he had a whole dialogue with his co-star where he's saying he doesn't even believe in rape and she's saying, "Oh, please rape me", like it's some kind of joke.

In college, 80s, there were all kinds of campaigns to just try to persuade girls who were raped to even go get help. There was so much shame they were hiding pregnancies and STDs.

In the nineties, I heard man after man bitch and moan about having to go to sexual harassment training. I can't tell you how many guys said things like "I'm not going" or "I'm not paying attention" 'cause they just didn't want to deal with it as a reality.

So here we are where things have come to a head and we're forced to dialogue about it. And good thing because dialogue and cooperation were made bad words in the 80s and 90s. You were weak if you compromised or listened to the other side.

We're moving out of that now, but the swing takes a while.

Remember the Title 10 Dads? They never believed there was discrimination against female athletes in the NAACP until they had daughters and saw how substandard their facilities, etc. were. So they started fighting and now female athletes have a lot more respect.

It's not unlike the people who think services are a waste of money until they themselves need those services.

Dumpster Diver
16th December 2017, 19:47
I think we're at the time right now where we're figuring out what lines to draw. We're in process. It's been most of my life that this has been happening. When I was a girl you didn't talk about "wife abuse". The idea of a husband being abused was almost taboo.

In the 70s, in one of Clint Eastwood's movies he had a whole dialogue with his co-star where he's saying he doesn't even believe in rape and she's saying, "Oh, please rape me", like it's some kind of joke.

In college, 80s, there were all kinds of campaigns to just try to persuade girls who were raped to even go get help. There was so much shame they were hiding pregnancies and STDs.

In the nineties, I heard man after man bitch and moan about having to go to sexual harassment training. I can't tell you how many guys said things like "I'm not going" or "I'm not paying attention" 'cause they just didn't want to deal with it as a reality.

So here we are where things have come to a head and we're forced to dialogue about it. And good thing because dialogue and cooperation were made bad words in the 80s and 90s. You were weak if you compromised or listened to the other side.

We're moving out of that now, but the swing takes a while.

Remember the Title 10 Dads? They never believed there was discrimination against female athletes in the NAACP until they had daughters and saw how substandard their facilities, etc. were. So they started fighting and now female athletes have a lot more respect.

It's not unlike the people who think services are a waste of money until they themselves need those services.

This is the thing that always got me: most all these men have wives, GFs, mothers, sisters, or daughters. Why the F**k would you not want equal pay and respect for them? Save the money for some rich company owner? Protect some a**hole pervert boss or coworker? They have no respect for your women, and thus you, so why as a competing alpha-male protect them?

If anyone had harassed my GF, I would have gone in and done some ‘Southern Justice’ on them. If not overt, then covert. Btw, I’ve a vivid imagination.

I’m glad I wasn’t tested. In that area I’m totally sure I’d have unleashed some dark monster lurking inside. As a high-Octane, type A personality, I barely kept the rage under control even at the best of times.

...ok, back to my type B Bruce Wayne persona...

NotAPretender
17th December 2017, 03:41
This is the thing that always got me: most all these men have wives, GFs, mothers, sisters, or daughters. Why the F**k would you not want equal pay and respect for them? Save the money for some rich company owner? Protect some a**hole pervert boss or coworker? They have no respect for your women, and thus you, so why as a competing alpha-male protect them?

If anyone had harassed my GF, I would have gone in and done some ‘Southern Justice’ on them. If not overt, then covert. Btw, I’ve a vivid imagination.

I’m glad I wasn’t tested. In that area I’m totally sure I’d have unleashed some dark monster lurking inside. As a high-Octane, type A personality, I barely kept the rage under control even at the best of times.

...ok, back to my type B Bruce Wayne persona...

I can't speak for anyone else, but most of my early formative years there was no female role model in my life. All I had to gauge a 'woman' emotionally or psychologically was my father's super macho, I'm the boss talk. Until he remarried...and to be honest I've never really forgiven him for all the bs he fed me....

sandy
17th December 2017, 07:04
Well Fred...............here is the sad thing.....about drawing lines when it comes to how to treat a fellow Human Being; that it doesn't come naturally and has to be taught. I wonder if there ever was a time when it was natural to be kind, repectful and courteous to your fellow Beings including all of Mother Earths Creations and Creatures...

So if we drop the gender qualifications and just went with what is respect, kindness and courtesy behavior I think the hormonal wrinkles would work themselves out either by mutual agreement of by hand....................BWAAAUUHHH!!!:hilarious::f lag:

Fred Steeves
17th December 2017, 15:00
So if we drop the gender qualifications and just went with what is respect, kindness and courtesy behavior I think the hormonal wrinkles would work themselves out either by mutual agreement of by hand....................BWAAAUUHHH!!!:hilarious::f lag:

Sandy, I think that would go a long, long way.

Here's where it can get tricky though. People like to play little games, right? Example: Anyone remember "no means yes"? Sometimes she really means no, but sometimes no means she really wants it more than anything but wants to make a little cat and mouse game of it. Tricky, no?

There are other examples we are all well aware of that I won't delve into here, but again, where are the lines now between play, passion, and abuse? There certainly is real abuse that does occur, and I'm happy for the disinfecting light of day being shined upon it, but this broad drag net doesn't appear to have any apparatus to separate the wheat from the chaff. All are guilty until proven innocent so asses are covered, and even if innocence is somehow proven on down the road, the accused has already lost their reputation, and often times their means to make a living.

Dreamtimer
17th December 2017, 15:41
The 'zero tolerance' attitudes we developed in the nineties were stupid-ass in my opinion. Nothin' liberal about that. Liberty means innocent until proven guilty. We've turned that on it's head too.

"Lock her up!" Ain't no-one in those crowds who wants due process. And they got a Prez to back 'em up.

A day or two ago a 12-year-old black girl went out her back door to go to the store and got guns pointed at her, handcuffed and put into a police car because they were searching for a criminal in the woods behind her house. An adult white woman.

Yet they point guns at this girl, cuff her and put her in the car. Are they 'keeping her safe'? 'Cause that's bullshit.

Where's the human judgement these days?

It was only a year ago that people dismissed the many women who have come out about Trump and his sexual behavior. Now things are changing to a point that people are listening. In one year.

Men have been denying/avoiding dealing with sexual harassment for exactly the reason Fred says. They don't want to get caught up in a dragnet because of stuff they did years ago when it was "OK".

Ignoring women who have been raped, traumatized, affected professionally for real because of fears of false accusations is now catching up. Just like the pedophilia in the catholic church, the system has to stop protecting the perps.

Last year, when a discussion was occurring about the harassment of women, loss of health clinics across the entire south - you know, places where they go to get pap smears and pre-natal care - and other issues, Mark Halperin said, and I quote:


"Can we just drop this and talk about something significant for the next two weeks until the election?"

Let me just say I was not surprised at all when he was gone due to sexual harassment.

Fred Steeves
17th December 2017, 16:13
Ha ha, we're bumping into each other all over the place today eh? :)




Men have been denying/avoiding dealing with sexual harassment for exactly the reason Fred says. They don't want to get caught up in a dragnet because of stuff they did years ago when it was "OK".

Um, just for the record that's not what I said or meant.


but this broad drag net doesn't appear to have any apparatus to separate the wheat from the chaff. All are guilty until proven innocent so asses are covered, and even if innocence is somehow proven on down the road, the accused has already lost their reputation, and often times their means to make a living.

What you are talking about here is a slightly different matter: If consensual cat and mouse games back in the day are now considered sex crimes, to paraphrase what Tavis Smiley said "then god help us all"...

Maggie
17th December 2017, 19:37
Well Fred...............here is the sad thing.....about drawing lines when it comes to how to treat a fellow Human Being; that it doesn't come naturally and has to be taught. I wonder if there ever was a time when it was natural to be kind, repectful and courteous to your fellow Beings including all of Mother Earths Creations and Creatures...

So if we drop the gender qualifications and just went with what is respect, kindness and courtesy behavior I think the hormonal wrinkles would work themselves out either by mutual agreement of by hand....................BWAAAUUHHH!!!:hilarious::f lag:

Underneath the race and gender politics is a basic assumption about "the position" of men, women and children in society. I read a good blog a few months ago that stuck. The case presented: the establishment of rules for DOMINANCE of one person or group OVER another as the cultural meme in social relationships. This is the keynote IMO of the feudal patriarchy. It is seen when women have not the a priori right to control pregnancy. it is seen when vaccinations are mandated. It is seen to be increasing in the way that we are being spied on and etc.....

Sexual coercion is possible because a man (or a woman) can force a woman or a man to be the recipient of sexual acts. Underneath that capacity is "whio is dominant?" IMO.

To see the blow back for sexual abuse is a sign IMO that women HAVE been FREQUENTLY subjugated to the tool of sexual coercion. From my vantage point as a woman, the double standard and the threat of pregnancy and a permanent STD like herpes HAS BEEN coexistant with the threat of being ostracized as a "ball buster" and an irratuionally prickly about sex uppity female IN the DOMINANT culture. The tide may be turning or it may be that the blow back will create a further retaliation from the "masters of the Universe"

In my family, I saw first hand and I was also traumatized by my mother's unmarried pregnancy and her utter devastation afterwards. She lost her place in the world she hoped to experience when she was pregnant and unmarried. The shame was NOT if she had been raped or had sex consensually. The pregnancy which could not be hidden was her fault anyway. No matter if it was a stranger who raped her, a date rape, or a consensual act, she was FOREVER after scarred. She was forced to have the baby, nurture the child in a maternity home for weeks, then forced to give him up. She was "put down" and abandoned emotionally by her family who saw her as damaged goods. Yes, she was PROPERTY that had spoiled. She was then dropped to the lowest rank.

From a really really early age, I saw in my world (born in 1955), white men were the rulers. IMO they still maintain that position. IMO the scene would have been entirely different if we were not consumed by a deep belief in the pyramidal shape of "Power as measured by how much power one has OVER another". It's climb to the top on a slippery slope in this social matrix.


from "How Rape and “Pro-Life” Politics Are Intimately Connected"

By Katherine Ripley

.....................I suspect that in the coming years, with states passing more and more restrictive abortion laws, the United States will see an increase in young girls giving birth. Arbitrary requirements about hallway lengths, anesthesia, and waiting periods are forcing abortion clinics to close and making it more difficult for women and children to get abortions. John Oliver recently highlighted the case of a Texas clinic that had to turn away a 13-year-old rape victim because of these laws, and the next closest clinic was impossibly far away—in New Mexico. Of course, these restrictions have no exceptions for rape cases because they’re supposed to be about protecting women’s “health.”

The anti-abortion lobbyists who write these laws think they’re protecting the lives of “unborn children,” but they have no regard for the lives of the child rape victims whom they are re-raping by forcing them to deliver their abusers’ children. They claim that the cause of the pregnancy—the rape—is irrelevant to the “unborn child’s” status as a “human being.”

I’m going to make a radical assertion: the rape has everything to do with the “unborn child’s” status as a “human being.” Rape and pro-life ideology are both methods of dehumanizing women, and both are caused by the same sick flaw of society—the need for dominance.

In her book, Sacred Pleasure, historian Riane Eisler argues that all of the world’s problems can be traced to a single source: we live in a society that values dominance rather than partnership. Eisler argues that the first human societies lived by the partnership model, as she calls it, where there was very little violence, much cooperation, no hierarchy, and sex was holy. This way of life was replaced with the dominance model, where violence (including sexual violence) is rampant, hierarchies subordinate women and people of color, and sexuality is demonized.

Rape does not exist in a partnership society. The dominance model is what breeds rape. The dominance model is also what reduces women to birthing machines. Both are methods of control—methods of maintaining the hierarchy. Both are limbs of the same demon. How does that demon ensure that women remain nothing but birthing machines? Label a cluster of undifferentiated cells an “unborn child” and say it needs to be “saved.”

The anti-choice lobbyists do not force children to give birth despite their rapes; they force them to give birth because they were raped. In a world where rape didn’t exist—where women had full and complete control over their bodies—we wouldn’t need abortion.https://www.huffingtonpost.com/katherine-ripley/how-rape-and-prolife-poli_b_9791666.html

NotAPretender
17th December 2017, 21:14
Life is tough, and I agree with you on the balances of power. As a former committed mysogynist let me give you a little different perspective on the workplace.

An asshole is an asshole. Rather crude but it sums it for me. I don't play favorites in the very least in that regard.

sandy
17th December 2017, 22:09
If one is to take being responsible for oneself seriously then even one's sexual needs are not to be accomodated by others when the mood strikes unless others are interested in doing so..................having our sexual needs met BY OTHERS is not a given!! Why must there be coyness around sexuality to deem it sensual. Sneaky, stealthily, hiding, manipulating, lurid actions, etc along with unspoken hidden urges are made more demanding from suppression along with games, coyness, flirting etc. became a necessity because of all the taboo around addressing this seeming human need.

So; no games, no cutezy or grooming stuff, etc. until the agreement has been acknowledged by cognitively sound parties to consumate their desires with one another. Might sound cold and unromantic to some but things can always be added to accomodate or highten excite-ability after the facts are on the consenual table/bed/floor..... LOL

Aragorn
18th December 2017, 09:05
If one is to take being responsible for oneself seriously then even one's sexual needs are not to be accomodated by others when the mood strikes unless others are interested in doing so..................having our sexual needs met BY OTHERS is not a given!! Why must there be coyness around sexuality to deem it sensual. Sneaky, stealthily, hiding, manipulating, lurid actions, etc along with unspoken hidden urges are made more demanding from suppression along with games, coyness, flirting etc. became a necessity because of all the taboo around addressing this seeming human need.

So; no games, no cutezy or grooming stuff, etc. until the agreement has been acknowledged by cognitively sound parties to consumate their desires with one another. Might sound cold and unromantic to some but things can always be added to accomodate or highten excite-ability after the facts are on the consenual table/bed/floor..... LOL

I think Hollywood and the music video industry have been playing a great role in this, sandy. :hmm:

Dreamtimer
18th December 2017, 13:02
Cat and Mouse. How about S&M? Talk about potential law suits. Don't people draw up contracts who engage regularly in that stuff?

Not only do you have to make sure it's consentual, you have to make sure someone is really old enough, and really not married, and really clean, and really on birth control, and really not a psycho... It's not an easy world out there.

There's a guy who got fired by NBC just recently. Then he got re-hired because they realized the stories against him weren't good. He's not the only one. Others will get their jobs back.

There are so many young men who lose jobs, opportunities and even their lives simply because they're black and they haven't done a goddamn thing. Life sucks quite often when you're innocent doesn't it?

Aragorn
18th December 2017, 13:46
Life sucks quite often when you're innocent doesn't it?

It's much worse than that, even. I have learned quite a long time ago already that no good deed goes by unpunished. :wry:

NotAPretender
18th December 2017, 17:12
Cat and Mouse. How about S&M? Talk about potential law suits. Don't people draw up contracts who engage regularly in that stuff?

Not only do you have to make sure it's consentual, you have to make sure someone is really old enough, and really not married, and really clean, and really on birth control, and really not a psycho... It's not an easy world out there.

There's a guy who got fired by NBC just recently. Then he got re-hired because they realized the stories against him weren't good. He's not the only one. Others will get their jobs back.

There are so many young men who lose jobs, opportunities and even their lives simply because they're black and they haven't done a goddamn thing. Life sucks quite often when you're innocent doesn't it?

I worked in a company where a pretty good black supervisor got busted for harassment...sent a letter requesting a date to a blonde employee. He got fired and she got a promotion...that's my hometown

pointessa
21st December 2017, 15:42
I worked in a company where a pretty good black supervisor got busted for harassment...sent a letter requesting a date to a blonde employee. He got fired and she got a promotion...that's my hometown


I couldn't resist commenting on this one.... Is the situation you are describing really about race or was it about very poor judgement for a supervisor at a company? I don't know what the company policies were but I do think someone that does this is not Supervisor material. Imagine being asked out on a date by your boss. What happens if you refuse? What happens if you go out with the guy? Do you get special treatment? What happens if you break up? Are you now going to be punished? There are lots of possibilities created here. I believe that a boss that does this, or tries to do this doesn't have a lot of common sense and certainly isn't putting his job first in the workplace. Should he be fired for that? Who knows, but I don't think he was management material.

NotAPretender
22nd December 2017, 02:52
lol, poor decision, but I fully commiserate with poor judgment, especially under a circumstance like that. It was great entertainment for most of the company. And most of it was not very pretty...He was a friend of mine and a pretty decent human being...Meant no harm to anyone, least of all the poor defenseless blonde who likely is running a company of only women by now...(It's been quite a few years ago).

Believe me, if you knew the culture of that company, you would recognize his offense would have been extremely low on the scale of bad deeds...very low...

Just one last thought...When the supervisor sent the note it wasn't a racial thing, by the time the jokes made the rounds (and, to be honest, before she was promoted) it became sheer crass, low life racial ugliness. And it goes on, very nicely...but as Dreamtimer has pointed out, the younger generation, at least in America are very different in their outlook regarding diversity. With the exception of those that have a long legacy of active hatred. Those elements will extinct themselves in due time, unfortunately for them. I would like to see everyone move forward in social awareness, social consciousness, and a sense of social responsibility.

Fred Steeves
22nd December 2017, 03:28
He was a friend of mine and a pretty decent human being...Meant no harm to anyone, least of all the poor defenseless blonde who likely is running a company of only women by now...

Hmmm, not quite sure what to make of that one.


Believe me,

I hear your boy Trump say that a lot... :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q4_sVysd2c

NotAPretender
22nd December 2017, 04:21
One of the hardest things to do is to differentiate what is personal and what is racist...it is hard, very hard. What I mean about that blonde person is that she was very mean-spirited...and it's likely she has taken her toll. Other supervisors often joked about her affinity for StrapOn tools.

Fred Steeves
22nd December 2017, 12:12
Other supervisors often joked about her affinity for StrapOn tools.

Ah, I see. Now we're getting somewhere. :flame:

So now the question begs, how would these other supervisors know of this woman's affinity for strap ons unless she liked to talk about such things in the workplace?

Sounds like that job environment was closer to a construction site or a bar rather than a professional office setting, so if talk around the water cooler was that free and liberal, maybe asking her for a date wasn't so out of line after all.

EDIT: Unless they were just making this "affinity" up, and in that case it would be in *extremely* poor taste and judgment...

NotAPretender
23rd December 2017, 18:22
Could have been either one, Freddie. Honestly, I just tried to mind my own damn business...unless and until I was approached (I'm only human you know, at least I was then)... :)

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 05:17
Here's a story about men protecting women and related stuff.


I was doing my thing – pouring drafts and smiling at girls – when I noticed a couple having an argument. I didn’t give it much thought; people argue sometimes, and at that age, rocky relationships are a kind of growing pain, it seems.

And then he hit her.

I reacted like many people do when absolutely shocked by something we witness – I froze up for a moment, but only for a moment. You see, I had been well trained in my youth, like many of the guys I knew then and know now. Hitting is bad. Hitting those weaker and smaller is worse. Hitting women is absolutely out-of-bounds, and if we see a guy doing this, it requires an immediate and harsh response from all “real men” in the vicinity.

Before my feet hit the ground, three rather beefy men already had their hands on the idiot Dude-bro, and were dragging him out back. When it was over, the guy looked like Joe Pesci at the end of Goodfellas – it wasn’t a pretty sight.

As they were dragging him away, I saw the look on Dude-bro’s face. There was fear, but also resignation, as if he knew this would happen, and had, in a way, accepted it. The moment his right hand struck her left cheek, we all knew exactly how it would end. Men know that there are certain behaviors that will earn you a beating at the hands of other men, and at the risk of sounding like a macho caveman, there are times when this is exactly what should happen.


While creepers exist in all walks of life, there seems to be a preponderance of them among the very wealthy. Wealth and power seem to have the same effect on the privileged as a few shots of tequila have on the bad elements among us regular Joes.

Suddenly, those drunk on booze or power become, in their own minds at least, instantly irresistible, charming, entitled to the attentions and bodies of any and all that they may desire, and completely free of even the slightest consequence for their actions.

However, while regular society has developed a series of checks and balances to restore common decency...among the uber-wealthy, there seems to be no system in place to push back against this kind of deviant behavior. As a result, the stories of abuse and assault sometimes go unchecked for decades, as they did in the case of Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein.

Until recently, one could have made an argument that those of us in regular America are much less tolerant of these kinds of abuses than those who reside in gated communities. Dude-bro, for example, was going to take a beating no matter what – the size of his wallet was never going to be a factor. That was my understanding of the differences between the behavioral norms of the hyper-wealthy compared to normal people, at least until 2016 came along and we elected Donald Trump to become the most powerful man in the world, even though his record of being an absolute creeper is well known and undeniable.

Here are a number of instances that would register as “Not OK” on any human being’s decency scale; I call the list Things That Would Get a Regular Guy Punched in the Head:

1) We’ve all heard the Access Hollywood tape. I’m not going to dwell on it, except to say that the “locker room talk” excuse is bullshit. (Thank you)

2) Trump often bragged about walking into the dressing rooms at his pageants while contestants were nude, or partially nude, and doing so unannounced. (They were underage, folks)

3) “I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her." I don’t really need to explain this quote from a 2006 appearance on The View, except to say that anyone who doesn’t see this as a punch-able moment doesn’t have a daughter.

And there’s more. Much more.

I can still see those three guys dragging him out back, only now, 20 years later, all I can think about is the simple fact that two of those guys voted for Trump.

Dumpster Diver
27th December 2017, 05:34
Here's a story about men protecting women and related stuff.


I was doing my thing – pouring drafts and smiling at girls – when I noticed a couple having an argument. I didn’t give it much thought; people argue sometimes, and at that age, rocky relationships are a kind of growing pain, it seems.

And then he hit her.

I reacted like many people do when absolutely shocked by something we witness – I froze up for a moment, but only for a moment. You see, I had been well trained in my youth, like many of the guys I knew then and know now. Hitting is bad. Hitting those weaker and smaller is worse. Hitting women is absolutely out-of-bounds, and if we see a guy doing this, it requires an immediate and harsh response from all “real men” in the vicinity.

Before my feet hit the ground, three rather beefy men already had their hands on the idiot Dude-bro, and were dragging him out back. When it was over, the guy looked like Joe Pesci at the end of Goodfellas – it wasn’t a pretty sight.

As they were dragging him away, I saw the look on Dude-bro’s face. There was fear, but also resignation, as if he knew this would happen, and had, in a way, accepted it. The moment his right hand struck her left cheek, we all knew exactly how it would end. Men know that there are certain behaviors that will earn you a beating at the hands of other men, and at the risk of sounding like a macho caveman, there are times when this is exactly what should happen.


While creepers exist in all walks of life, there seems to be a preponderance of them among the very wealthy. Wealth and power seem to have the same effect on the privileged as a few shots of tequila have on the bad elements among us regular Joes.

Suddenly, those drunk on booze or power become, in their own minds at least, instantly irresistible, charming, entitled to the attentions and bodies of any and all that they may desire, and completely free of even the slightest consequence for their actions.

However, while regular society has developed a series of checks and balances to restore common decency...among the uber-wealthy, there seems to be no system in place to push back against this kind of deviant behavior. As a result, the stories of abuse and assault sometimes go unchecked for decades, as they did in the case of Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein.

Until recently, one could have made an argument that those of us in regular America are much less tolerant of these kinds of abuses than those who reside in gated communities. Dude-bro, for example, was going to take a beating no matter what – the size of his wallet was never going to be a factor. That was my understanding of the differences between the behavioral norms of the hyper-wealthy compared to normal people, at least until 2016 came along and we elected Donald Trump to become the most powerful man in the world, even though his record of being an absolute creeper is well known and undeniable.

Here are a number of instances that would register as “Not OK” on any human being’s decency scale; I call the list Things That Would Get a Regular Guy Punched in the Head:

1) We’ve all heard the Access Hollywood tape. I’m not going to dwell on it, except to say that the “locker room talk” excuse is bullshit. (Thank you)

2) Trump often bragged about walking into the dressing rooms at his pageants while contestants were nude, or partially nude, and doing so unannounced. (They were underage, folks)

3) “I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her." I don’t really need to explain this quote from a 2006 appearance on The View, except to say that anyone who doesn’t see this as a punch-able moment doesn’t have a daughter.

And there’s more. Much more.

I can still see those three guys dragging him out back, only now, 20 years later, all I can think about is the simple fact that two of those guys voted for Trump.

Be nice, he's the only God-Emperor we've got...:priest:

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 05:54
I don't want a God-Emperor. Or any kind of Emperor. That's why we had the revolution. A president whose heroes are strongmen belongs more in the presidency of a country like Russia than America. (except Putin is so much smarter)

Dumpster Diver
27th December 2017, 06:18
I don't want a God-Emperor. Or any kind of Emperor. That's why we had the revolution. A president whose heroes are strongmen belongs more in the presidency of a country like Russia than America. (except Putin is so much smarter)

Dreamy, you know you don't get what you want...you get what you need to 'learn the lesson'...

...so we all get the Trumpster Fire shoved in our faces...you mess with Gaia, she messes back.

...BTW, you know I don't watch the news anymore? There's a reason for the season...

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 07:04
I haven't been messing with Gaia. I've been being nice to her all my life.

It's good you don't watch the news. There's a large amount of programming and propaganda. I watch and listen to and read some, because I choose to stay connected to what's being said and what people may be following.

And it's nice to have days with no news, much more peaceful.

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 15:07
Dreamy, you know you don't get what you want...you get what you need to 'learn the lesson'...

...so we all get the Trumpster Fire shoved in our faces...you mess with Gaia, she messes back.



Looks like Orbs sees things the same way (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/7336-An-ongoing-Chris-Thomas-thread-for-those-who-resonate-with-his-alternative-view-of-reality-and-history?p=841984207&viewfull=1#post841984207).

Dumpster Diver
27th December 2017, 15:19
I haven't been messing with Gaia. I've been being nice to her all my life.

It's good you don't watch the news. There's a large amount of programming and propaganda. I watch and listen to and read some, because I choose to stay connected to what's being said and what people may be following.

And it's nice to have days with no news, much more peaceful.

Right, as a fellow recycling flea I feel the same way, but I think the cosmic vet our Gaia dog is going to to relieve the itching problem may not see it that way: a flea is a flea.

Re: news. Willful ignorance and outright lies bother me. Time spent on research or enjoyment works better for me.

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 15:26
Too much noise, not enough signal?

I like to peruse different sources which include fivethirtyeight. They do numbers analyses and it's a group of people, men and women (not just Nate). It's not a news outlet so it's wonderfully free of the partisan shit even as it covers politics.

It's also one of the only places that I see that does a good job of looking at all the crazy polls and making some sense of them.

Dumpster Diver
27th December 2017, 15:36
Too much noise, not enough signal?

I like to peruse different sources which include fivethirtyeight. They do numbers analyses and it's a group of people, men and women (not just Nate). It's not a news outlet so it's wonderfully free of the partisan shit even as it covers politics.

It's also one of the only places that I see that does a good job of looking at all the crazy polls and making some sense of them.

Nate Silver’s site is one of the very few I visit every day...but mostly for the sports info. His numbers/fact based approach is refreshing and his book is required reading if you are building any sort of predictions model.

Fred Steeves
27th December 2017, 15:39
I can still see those three guys dragging him out back, only now, 20 years later, all I can think about is the simple fact that two of those guys voted for Trump.

That to me would be a case of cognitive dissonance, especially so if they had a year to watch this f**cking disgrace of a man in office and would STILL vote for him.

Dreamtimer
27th December 2017, 18:09
I watched my parents become kind of enthralled with him when he did The Apprentice. They started ignoring a lot of the former concerns they'd had.

Combine that with the need to be right/not be wrong and ego...yeah, major cognitive dissonance.

Dreamtimer
28th December 2017, 22:00
It took this guy a quarter century to see what was going on in front of him (http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/27/2017-was-the-year-i-learned-about-my-white-privilege/). Well, better late than never... (I used to hear Max Boot on the radio every Friday as part of a Friday news round-up panel. The bold is mine)



In college — this was in the late 1980s and early 1990s at the University of California, Berkeley — I used to be one of those smart-alecky young conservatives who would scoff at the notion of “white male privilege” and claim that anyone propagating such concepts was guilty of “political correctness.” As a Jewish refugee from the Soviet Union, I felt it was ridiculous to expect me to atone for the sins of slavery and segregation, to say nothing of the household drudgery and workplace discrimination suffered by women. I wasn’t racist or sexist. (Or so I thought.) I hadn’t discriminated against anyone. (Or so I thought.) My ancestors were not slave owners or lynchers; they were more likely victims of the pogroms.

I saw America as a land of opportunity, not a bastion of racism or sexism. I didn’t even think that I was a “white” person — the catchall category that has been extended to include everyone from a Mayflower descendant to a recently arrived illegal immigrant from Ireland. I was a newcomer to America who was eager to assimilate into this wondrous new society, and I saw its many merits while blinding myself to its dark side.

Well, live and learn. A quarter century is enough time to examine deeply held shibboleths and to see if they comport with reality. In my case, I have concluded that my beliefs were based more on faith than on a critical examination of the evidence. In the last few years, in particular, it has become impossible for me to deny the reality of discrimination, harassment, even violence that people of color and women continue to experience in modern-day America from a power structure that remains for the most part in the hands of straight, white males. People like me, in other words. Whether I realize it or not, I have benefitted from my skin color and my gender — and those of a different gender or sexuality or skin color have suffered because of it.

This sounds obvious, but it wasn’t clear to me until recently. I have had my consciousness raised. Seriously.

This doesn’t meant that I agree with America’s harshest critics — successors to the New Left of the 1960s who saw this country as an irredeemably fascist state that they called “AmeriKKKa.” Judging by historical standards or those of the rest of the world, America remains admirably free and enlightened. Minorities are not being subject to ethnic cleansing like the Rohingya in Burma. Women are not forced to wear all-enveloping garments as in Saudi Arabia. No one is jailed for criticizing our supreme leader as in Russia.

The country is becoming more aware of oppression and injustice, which have long permeated our society, precisely because of growing agitation to do something about it. Those are painful but necessary steps toward creating a more equal and just society. But we are not there yet, and it is wrong to pretend otherwise. It is even more pernicious to cling to the conceit, so popular among Donald Trump’s supporters, that straight white men are the “true” victims because their unquestioned position of privilege is now being challenged by uppity women, gay people, and people of color.

I used to take a reflexively pro-police view of arguments over alleged police misconduct, thinking that cops were getting a bum rap for doing a tough, dangerous job. I still have admiration for the vast majority of police officers, but there is no denying that some are guilty of mistreating the people they are supposed to serve. Not all the victims of police misconduct are minorities — witness a blonde Australian woman shot to death by a Minneapolis police officer after she called 911, or an unarmed white man shot to death by a Mesa, Arizona, officer while crawling down a hotel hallway — but a disproportionate share are.

The videos do not lie. One after another, we have seen the horrifying evidence on film of cops arresting, beating, even shooting black people who were doing absolutely nothing wrong or were stopped for trivial misconduct. For African-Americans, and in particular African-American men, infractions like jaywalking or speeding or selling cigarettes without tax stamps can incite corporal, or even capital, punishment without benefit of judge or jury. African-Americans have long talked about being stopped for “driving while black.” I am ashamed to admit I did not realize what a serious and common problem this was until the videotaped evidence emerged. The iPhone may well have done more to expose racism in modern-day America than the NAACP.

Of course, the problem is not limited to the police; they merely reflect the racism of our society, which is not as severe as it used to be but remains real enough. I realized how entrenched this problem remains when an African-American friend — a well-educated, well-paid, well-dressed woman — confessed that she did not want to walk into a department store carrying in her purse a pair of jeans that she planned to give to a friend later in the day. Why not? Because she was afraid that she would be accused of shoplifting! This is not something that would occur to me, simply because the same suspicion would not attach to a middle-aged, middle-class white man.

The larger problem of racism in our society was made evident in Donald Trump’s election, despite — or because of — his willingness to dog-whistle toward white nationalists with his pervasive bashing of Mexicans, Muslims, and other minorities. Trump even tried to delegitimize the first African-American president by claiming he wasn’t born in this country, and now he goes after African-American football players who kneel during the playing of the anthem to protest police brutality. (Far from being concerned about police misconduct, which disproportionately targets people of color, Trump actively encourages it.)

Adam Serwer argues persuasively in the Atlantic that Trump’s election could not be explained by “economic anxiety,” because the poorest voters — those making less than $50,000 a year — voted predominantly for Hillary Clinton. On the other hand, “Trump defeated Clinton among white voters in every income category,” from those making less than $30,000 to those making more than $250,000. In other words, Serwer writes, Trump does not lead a “working-class coalition; it is a nationalist one.” That doesn’t mean that every Trump supporter is a racist; it does mean that Trump’s victory has revealed that racism and xenophobia are more widespread than I had previously realized.

As for sexism, its scope has been made plain by the horrifying revelations of widespread harassment, assault, and even rape perpetrated by powerful men from Hollywood to Washington. The Harvey Weinstein scandal has opened the floodgates, leading to the naming and shaming of a growing list of rich and powerful men — including Kevin Spacey, Louis C.K., Charlie Rose, Matt Lauer, Roy Moore, and John Conyers — who are alleged to have abused their positions of authority to force themselves upon women or, in some cases, men.

As with the revelations of police brutality, so too with sexual harassment: I am embarrassed and ashamed that I did not understand how bad the problem is. I had certainly gotten some hints from my female friends of the kind of harassment they have endured, but I never had any idea it was this bad or this common — or this tolerated. Even now, while other men are being fired for their misconduct, Trump continues to sit in the Oval Office despite credible allegations of sexual assault from nearly 20 different women.

I now realize something I should have learned long ago: that feminist activists had a fair point when they denounced the “patriarchy” for oppressing women. Sadly, this oppression, while less severe than it used to be, remains a major problem in spite of the impressive strides the U.S. has taken toward greater gender equality.

This doesn’t mean that I am about to join the academic political correctness brigade in protesting “microaggressions” and agitating against free speech. I remain a classical liberal, and I am disturbed by attempts to infringe on freedom of speech in the name in fighting racism, sexism, or other ills. But I no longer think, as I once did, that “political correctness” is a bigger threat than the underlying racism and sexism that continue to disfigure our society decades after the civil rights and women’s rights movements. If the Trump era teaches us anything, it is how far we still have to go to realize the “unalienable Rights” of all Americans to enjoy “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness,” regardless of gender, sexuality, religion, or skin color.

Fred Steeves
29th December 2017, 01:49
From the tone of this piece, sounds to me like if white (and especially Conservative) men can be put in their place everything will begin to even out. That most other hands are clean in this deal. All this mentality invites, IMO, is yet another era of power and control to seamlessly replace the former, when the going gets too rough as tends to happen throughout history.

Why are problems and solutions still hinging upon Left vs. Right/ Obama vs. Trump/ White vs. Black/Man vs. Woman/ Gay vs. Straight/ etc...?

WTF?

NotAPretender
29th December 2017, 02:20
No Fred, that is where the analogies break down and where most conservatives can't see to the other side. It's not a matter of power and who has the last word...it is totally about equanimity and cooperation...that's all.

Equanimity was a bad choice for explanation, while equanimity is an integral part of the solution, it is most assuredly about magnanimity as well.

Dreamtimer
29th December 2017, 03:01
I certainly didn't see a divide being at the heart of this piece. I saw someone coming out of the divide into understanding. He specifically said he's not down with the squelching of speech. If that ain't at the heart of our democracy, what is?

The very first Amendment is about speech. Which is what brings us together.

Guns divide us very easily.

Lemual
29th December 2017, 03:04
No Fred, that is where the analogies break down and where most conservatives can't see to the other side. It's not a matter of power and who has the last word...it is totally about equanimity and cooperation...that's all.

Equanimity was a bad choice for explanation, while equanimity is an integral part of the solution, it is most assuredly about magnanimity as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong (Fred), but it seems all that Fred is saying is that to move forward we need to do away with the (idea of) the things that divide us otherwise the "power structures" that control us will remain the same. I am pretty much in agreement that these paradigms tend to hurt more than help. Treating people as individuals is key to my mind.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted anyone.


Guns divide us very easily.

Politics even more so.

NotAPretender
29th December 2017, 15:50
it's very true...if only people would REALLY practice that. I do have a deep philosophical issue with authoritarianism, selfishness, and self-righteous judgment... :) Conservatism is symbolic of human values and is useful for dialog but as you point out not much else. I have family and close friends that are patently conservative and even the best of them have for me disconcerting qualities. Disconcerting is not a judgmental term, it is a self-descriptive term of dis-ease.

Dreamtimer
29th December 2017, 16:05
In this interview at 6:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdXiTPiAD4) Lara Setrakien talks about the men who were very supportive and protective in the workplace.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGdXiTPiAD4

Dreamtimer
9th May 2018, 12:30
I noticed Schneiderman first used the Cat and Mouse defense. He said he engages in role play.

He stepped down anyway.

NotAPretender
9th May 2018, 14:04
I noticed Schneiderman first used the Cat and Mouse defense. He said he engages in role play.

He stepped down anyway.

Here's my take:

The dynamic is set up by gender but it is not really about gender, it is more about a mismatch of crazy.

I was cohabitating with a lady in an arrangement of convenience for both of us more than any thing else. In the space of about a half hour she called the police on me essentially because I wasn't doing what she wanted me to do. She threateded to kill me and when I decided it was all too crazy for me and decided to leave she threatened to 'kick my ass' which I thought ludicrous but anyway. As I was walking out you can trust that the eyes behind my head were fully open. That was the last time I ever saw her.

If this lady had been matched up with Schneidermann it would have been a tossup as to who ended up dead.

palooka's revenge
9th May 2018, 18:55
From the tone of this piece, sounds to me like if white (and especially Conservative) men can be put in their place everything will begin to even out. That most other hands are clean in this deal. All this mentality invites, IMO, is yet another era of power and control to seamlessly replace the former, when the going gets too rough as tends to happen throughout history.

Why are problems and solutions still hinging upon Left vs. Right/ Obama vs. Trump/ White vs. Black/Man vs. Woman/ Gay vs. Straight/ etc...?

WTF?

no pun intended but, dare i say black and white thinking?


I certainly didn't see a divide being at the heart of this piece. I saw someone coming out of the divide into understanding.

agreed!!

Aragorn
25th May 2018, 08:49
And apparently another one bites the dust. The Guardian reports that Morgan Freeman has been accused of sexual harassment by eight women (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/may/24/morgan-freeman-sexual-harassment-accusations-claims-women). USA Today is also publishing an article about it (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/05/24/morgan-freeman-accused-sexual-harassment-and-inappropriate-behavior/640696002/), as are yet a couple of other mainstream news outlets.

enjoy being
25th May 2018, 08:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kuKcX8QrOM


A good distraction for a while for some people.

Wind
25th May 2018, 09:21
And apparently another one bites the dust. The Guardian reports that Morgan Freeman has been accused of sexual harassment by eight women (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/may/24/morgan-freeman-sexual-harassment-accusations-claims-women). USA Today is also publishing an article about it (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/05/24/morgan-freeman-accused-sexual-harassment-and-inappropriate-behavior/640696002/), as are yet a couple of other mainstream news outlets.

Sad if it's true in this case too, part of me hopes that it wouldn't be.

Aragorn
25th May 2018, 10:02
And apparently another one bites the dust. The Guardian reports that Morgan Freeman has been accused of sexual harassment by eight women (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/may/24/morgan-freeman-sexual-harassment-accusations-claims-women). USA Today is also publishing an article about it (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/05/24/morgan-freeman-accused-sexual-harassment-and-inappropriate-behavior/640696002/), as are yet a couple of other mainstream news outlets.

Sad if it's true in this case too, part of me hopes that it wouldn't be.

Well, ultimately, we are neither judge nor jury in this matter, but I strongly suspect that it would be true. First of all, we're not talking of one or even two allegations, but of eight separate ones. That almost sounds like we're talking of Bill Clinton or Bill Cosby.

Secondly, many people who've met Morgan Freeman have already stated that they felt intimidated by him, and from what I've seen of him in talk shows, he does indeed appear to be someone you don't want to mess with. He does not come across as a nice person, but rather as an ostensible narcissist, and for that matter, one who carries a lot of rage inside of him.

Hollywood is a cesspool, just like the music industry and politics. Who knows how many more of these cases are still hiding in the dark? :hmm:

NotAPretender
26th May 2018, 00:45
this is not specific to any one location...it is the way of the world...until now, perhaps...I think that's cool...if it results in a true balance of power...that will be a long road...but when women are sentenced in the same fashion that men are for the same crimes (just one example of what I mean) then egalitarianism will have arrived.

Dreamtimer
5th October 2018, 13:53
So someone decided to start a Him Too movement.

This is a perfect example of creating division and sides where there weren't any before.

Me Too is a movement of both women and men. It has been from the get go.

Even member TargeT pointed out how often men get raped.

And yet some how people need to create even more division and make more false claims about side-taking.

Wusses.

Aragorn
5th October 2018, 15:07
[...] Even member TargeT pointed out how often men get raped.

As a strictly heterosexual man, I have luckily enough never been raped, but I have been groped by male homosexuals/bisexuals/omnisexuals or whateversexuals more often than I care to remember. :shocked: :dislike:

One of them was a friend of mine, and he "jokingly" touched me in inappropriate ways a few times, but he was officially straight — he was an ex-boyfriend of my ex-girlfriend/fiancée, and he was a former classmate of my brother's — and so I naively accepted the possibility that he was merely joking. However, we were always going out with a whole bunch of guys (and one girl) at the time, and as I found out later, he had also already been groping each and every one of us — except for the girl in our company, ironically enough, but he wouldn't have had to try anything funny with her. She was tall, quite assertive and just as capable of defending herself.

Eventually I started avoiding being alone with the guy, and whenever I would then still run into him at a pub, I started paying closer attention to his body language. And sure enough, even though he claims to be straight, he does have some gay mannerisms, even though he's good at hiding them.

In addition to the above, I have also been threatened with homosexual violence, during my very first day at work at one of the (now defunct) General Motors plants in Antwerp — it was my first ever job after I was released from active military duty. Anyway, I told the guy that I'd kick the shit out of him if he were to try anything funny with me. Luckily, he never did follow up on his threat. He was much taller and heavier than me, so that probably wouldn't have ended well. :scrhd:

Once I was also offered money by a guy if I were to have let him sodomize me. I was so freaked out that all I could do was utter "No!" and walk away. This was a guy who had dated a dear female friend of mine at the time, and even though I knew — from what he himself had told us — that he had been hanging out with a bunch of gay guys for a while, I never would have thought that he was gay (or perhaps bisexual), especially given how adamant he was that he was straight. He certainly did like the ladies, and there was a 16-year-old girl at the time whom he had gotten pregnant in the parking lot — my brother had a crush on this girl for a short time after she had already had her baby.

I was told some time later that this very same guy was having an incestuous homosexual relationship with his father. I don't know whether that was true or whether it was just gossip, but he was either way a sick bastard. He was eventually arrested, convicted and sent to jail for his participation in a violent home-jacking in which he and his two cohorts tied up and severely beat up an elderly couple. He probably got to enjoy lots of sodomy at the Barbed Wire Hotel™. :rolleyes:


:vom:

Chris
5th October 2018, 15:31
The Freaky thing is, just as I was reading Aragorn's post above, this video came up on my youtube feed:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHc5WdVADCc

It's worth watching, even if you disagree with it (and it's just an opinion) as it provides some balance I think.

Another interesting synchronicity is that the experiences described by Aragorn have also happened to me, though never in Europe. The rather unpleasant encounters i had always involved South Asian men (from India and Bangladesh) and happened to me in India and Singapore. This is almost never mentioned by the MeToo movement, but if you want to fight genuine misogyny, patriarchy and rape culture, South Asia would be a great place to start. At least in India, the local women are fighting back and there has been some improvement, but overall, South Asian attitudes towards women, sexual boundaries and rape are appalling and much worse even today than at any time during Europe's history, including the dark ages.

Women simply cannot go outside or enjoy any form of normal life, without the threat of harassment and rape. That is without even mentioning the practice of Suttee, or Widow Burning, which has been largely stamped out by the British, but still happens occasionally in rural areas, as does corrective rape, execution for eloping and other such tasty punishments. I only wish the MeToo movement would concentrate on these issues, which are really serious and require a worldwide movement, yet all I hear is crickets.

Dreamtimer
5th October 2018, 19:16
There are many women's rights and human rights groups who already deal with these issues. The Me Too movement arose due to current changes associated with Western culture, i.e., Hollywood and politics.

It could expand and likely will.

Aragorn
5th October 2018, 22:39
This is almost never mentioned by the MeToo movement, but if you want to fight genuine misogyny, patriarchy and rape culture, South Asia would be a great place to start. At least in India, the local women are fighting back and there has been some improvement, but overall, South Asian attitudes towards women, sexual boundaries and rape are appalling and much worse even today than at any time during Europe's history, including the dark ages.

This is true. There were reports in the news a few years ago — at least, there were over here — about several brutal gang rapes in India. Some of those were tribally linked, but others were not. And by the way, you may add South Africa to that list, as well as Somalia and Congo.

There was one particular event in India which was beyond brutal. A 23-year old female student and her male companion were taking a privately run bus one night. The bus driver then deviated from his route, and then he and five other men beat up the girl and her male companion, and they each raped the girl. And not just with their genitals either. She was also raped with an iron rod.

The male companion tried to stop them but was beaten into a coma, kicked off the bus and left for dead. The girl was also left for dead after they had finished, and she did effectively die of her injuries two or three days later, never having regained consciousness. The six men were later arrested, tried, found guilty and sentenced to death. I am by no means a proponent of capital punishment, but even with the death penalty hanging over their heads for crimes like this, people still go ahead and commit them. It's sheer and utter madness.

And see, this is then one of those things again that make me contemplate that there truly is no hope for the human race. Mankind is capable of such grace and such beauty, but at the same time, it is also capable of such horrendous atrocities. And these are not satanic pedophiles in some catacomb we're talking about. These are rural people in South-East Asia and Africa — people who live everyday normal lives, and whom you would probably never suspect of such atrocities.

And they think this is all perfectly normal.


:fpalm: :fpalm: :fpalm:

NotAPretender
6th October 2018, 00:07
As a strictly heterosexual man, I have luckily enough never been raped, but I have been groped by male homosexuals/bisexuals/omnisexuals or whateversexuals more often than I care to remember. :shocked: :dislike:

One of them was a friend of mine, and he "jokingly" touched me in inappropriate ways a few times, but he was officially straight — he was an ex-boyfriend of my ex-girlfriend/fiancée, and he was a former classmate of my brother's — and so I naively accepted the possibility that he was merely joking. However, we were always going out with a whole bunch of guys (and one girl) at the time, and as I found out later, he had also already been groping each and every one of us — except for the girl in our company, ironically enough, but he wouldn't have had to try anything funny with her. She was tall, quite assertive and just as capable of defending herself.

Eventually I started avoiding being alone with the guy, and whenever I would then still run into him at a pub, I started paying closer attention to his body language. And sure enough, even though he claims to be straight, he does have some gay mannerisms, even though he's good at hiding them.

In addition to the above, I have also been threatened with homosexual violence, during my very first day at work at one of the (now defunct) General Motors plants in Antwerp — it was my first ever job after I was released from active military duty. Anyway, I told the guy that I'd kick the shit out of him if he were to try anything funny with me. Luckily, he never did follow up on his threat. He was much taller and heavier than me, so that probably wouldn't have ended well. :scrhd:

Once I was also offered money by a guy if I were to have let him sodomize me. I was so freaked out that all I could do was utter "No!" and walk away. This was a guy who had dated a dear female friend of mine at the time, and even though I knew — from what he himself had told us — that he had been hanging out with a bunch of gay guys for a while, I never would have thought that he was gay (or perhaps bisexual), especially given how adamant he was that he was straight. He certainly did like the ladies, and there was a 16-year-old girl at the time whom he had gotten pregnant in the parking lot — my brother had a crush on this girl for a short time after she had already had her baby.

I was told some time later that this very same guy was having an incestuous homosexual relationship with his father. I don't know whether that was true or whether it was just gossip, but he was either way a sick bastard. He was eventually arrested, convicted and sent to jail for his participation in a violent home-jacking in which he and his two cohorts tied up and severely beat up an elderly couple. He probably got to enjoy lots of sodomy at the Barbed Wire Hotel™. :rolleyes:


:vom:

that's just normal give and take Aragorn...the only difference is that it isn't heterosexual.


The Freaky thing is, just as I was reading Aragorn's post above, this video came up on my youtube feed:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHc5WdVADCc

It's worth watching, even if you disagree with it (and it's just an opinion) as it provides some balance I think.

Another interesting synchronicity is that the experiences described by Aragorn have also happened to me, though never in Europe. The rather unpleasant encounters i had always involved South Asian men (from India and Bangladesh) and happened to me in India and Singapore. This is almost never mentioned by the MeToo movement, but if you want to fight genuine misogyny, patriarchy and rape culture, South Asia would be a great place to start. At least in India, the local women are fighting back and there has been some improvement, but overall, South Asian attitudes towards women, sexual boundaries and rape are appalling and much worse even today than at any time during Europe's history, including the dark ages.

Women simply cannot go outside or enjoy any form of normal life, without the threat of harassment and rape. That is without even mentioning the practice of Suttee, or Widow Burning, which has been largely stamped out by the British, but still happens occasionally in rural areas, as does corrective rape, execution for eloping and other such tasty punishments. I only wish the MeToo movement would concentrate on these issues, which are really serious and require a worldwide movement, yet all I hear is crickets.

there is a big enough problem here and they have been squawking for many years... :)

Dreamtimer
8th October 2018, 09:07
There was a problem with men in South Africa raping girls and even babies thinking it would cure their AIDS. Horrendous.

Aragorn
8th October 2018, 11:38
There was a problem with men in South Africa raping girls and even babies thinking it would cure their AIDS. Horrendous.

Yes, and they have a multiple-offense rapist, polygamist and fraud, Jacob Zuma, for a president. He has been accused of various crimes many times — including by his predecessor and fellow ANC member Thabo Mbeki — but every time, the investigation was side-tracked and eventually dropped. Nelson Mandela's probably rolling in his grave.

Zuma once had sex with a prostitute who had AIDS, but he said that taking a shower after sex was enough to get rid of the danger. :fpalm:

Chris
8th October 2018, 20:26
This is true. There were reports in the news a few years ago — at least, there were over here — about several brutal gang rapes in India. Some of those were tribally linked, but others were not. And by the way, you may add South Africa to that list, as well as Somalia and Congo.

There was one particular event in India which was beyond brutal. A 23-year old female student and her male companion were taking a privately run bus one night. The bus driver then deviated from his route, and then he and five other men beat up the girl and her male companion, and they each raped the girl. And not just with their genitals either. She was also raped with an iron rod.

The male companion tried to stop them but was beaten into a coma, kicked off the bus and left for dead. The girl was also left for dead after they had finished, and she did effectively die of her injuries two or three days later, never having regained consciousness. The six men were later arrested, tried, found guilty and sentenced to death. I am by no means a proponent of capital punishment, but even with the death penalty hanging over their heads for crimes like this, people still go ahead and commit them. It's sheer and utter madness.

And see, this is then one of those things again that make me contemplate that there truly is no hope for the human race. Mankind is capable of such grace and such beauty, but at the same time, it is also capable of such horrendous atrocities. And these are not satanic pedophiles in some catacomb we're talking about. These are rural people in South-East Asia and Africa — people who live everyday normal lives, and whom you would probably never suspect of such atrocities.

And they think this is all perfectly normal.


:fpalm: :fpalm: :fpalm:

This case stuck with me in particular because the girl in question was treated (unsuccessfully, in the end) in the same Singapore hospital I used to attend (Raffles) and she was from Delhi, a city I've visited many times and know quite well. Unfortunately, it is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg and such cases are fairly common in a country with 1.3 billion people. As much as I'm a fan of certain aspects of Hinduism, I'm afraid religion is partly to blame here.

Hinduism was not a particularly misogynistic religion to start with, but that changed probably with the advent of Islam and possibly Christianity. One big change in Southern India for instance (where I used to live), was that with the arrival of the British and the Portuguese, women had to start covering up. Previously, they walked around bare-breasted, but Christians found this scandalous and introduced laws that stopped this practice, which in a tropical climate is rather inconvenient. Previously, this was also the case in the North, but the Islamic invasion outlawed it much earlier than in the South.