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Tick Tock
23rd October 2017, 19:55
The history of the Jewish nation is shrouded in half truths and outright fabrications but what can be demonstrated to be true is that " Jewish culture" is basically a plagiarism, and that judaism is simply a corrupted and convoluted out growth of ancient Sumerian epics mixed with the worship of Amen, the Atlantean Sun Cult in Egypt. These Hyksos who adopted the religion mingled there old legends from Sumer and developed a ******* culture based on misinterpretations of the culture of their Egyptian overlords.

The first five books of the Torah were written over a span of of around six hundred years and some scholars believe they reached there present state during the Persian period ( 538. 332BC) But is highly unlikely that they have not been changed since then.

This mixed raced dirty blood culture of non Ayrian pures became even more convoluted after the Jewish nation was taken into Babylon, where most of the Egyptian levites were killed and the rest of the judahite slaves were forbidden from reading and writing, and the religion of Amen became illegal so the Israelites reverted to worship of saturnalian gods like Ba'al and Moloch.



Bassicaly in the long run i am presenting the Jewish domination and control expressions not from the very ancient times but can make clear if needed, but mostly from the times I have posted through Adolph Hittlers life to the present day.

I maybe right i maybe wrong just sharing info and memories.

Emil El Zapato
23rd October 2017, 20:12
well, your DNA memories suggest to me you must have been a member of Hitler's SS in a prior life? Am I correct?

Tick Tock
23rd October 2017, 20:24
well, your DNA memories suggest to me you must have been a member of Hitler's SS in a prior life? Am I correct?

Depends how you feel would you judge me as a hostile or friend or just a being sharing personal truths.

Let me explain some more.

Tick Tock
23rd October 2017, 20:52
Further regions influences erased all traces of the Jewish religious connection to the worship of Amen during the Babylonian exile when the so called "Deuteronomistic History" was composed. When the news returned from Babylon in the 6th century they were virtually illiterate and speaking a new language ( Aramaic) Upon there return they "redacted" or reconstructed what has been passed down orally to create the foundations for the religion that we know today, with Amen being replicated by the god Yahweh which in the beginning was closely associated with the God Ma'am and Moloch. In fact much evidence indicates that infant sacrifice was performed to both Moloch and Yahweh by the jews during the post exotic period.

Over time the other books of the minor prophets and the so called "wisdom books" were added.

By the time of the Roman Empire invasion, Israel had seen several invasions and had been an insignificant fiefdom ruled by many over lords. During the Roman occupation the jews were demoralized when the Romans violently put down a rebellion by the jews and eventually the jews were scattered throughout the middle east and Europe during Jewish Diaspora.

So far can anyone keep up or resonate with what I have shared. What I present are foundations to an alternative view of Adolph Hitler.

Emil El Zapato
23rd October 2017, 21:49
"In fact much evidence indicates that infant sacrifice was performed to both Moloch and Yahweh by the jews during the post exotic period."

I am interested in this...and further what bearing a practice that dates to antiquity which ostensibly was practiced by a number of cultures have on today. Conventional wisdom might suggest that such practices were independent of the contemporary spiritual experience. Conventional wisdom might also suggest Hitler was sacrificing infants in the 20th century no matter what happened 3,000 years ago. And Dick Cheney does it now? (for lunch). Ancient peoples had no monopoly on depraved practices. What one does notice in the course of normal progressive social consciousness is that Romans quit throwing Christians to the lions.

tarka the duck
24th October 2017, 09:53
... during the post exotic period.

That gave me a real laugh!! :love:

Aianawa
29th October 2017, 23:36
Why ?

Octopus Garden
31st October 2017, 02:02
Mixed race dirty blood? Huh? Is this Stormfront?

enjoy being
31st October 2017, 02:49
Maybe forgot password? :-P

tarka the duck
31st October 2017, 15:50
When I saw the title of this thread just now, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry… if it wasn’t for the fact that this claim has been
used as justification to persecute, abuse, discriminate against and murder a group of people, it would be very funny.

Jewish Domination of the World, eh? Makes me think of the old Jewish joke ...

Two old Jewish men are sitting on a park bench in Berlin in the early 1930s. Things are not yet so bad, but that doesn’t mean they won’t get worse.
One of the two is solemn*ly reading a Jewish newspaper. The other is scanning a Nazi paper, and laughing out loud.
Finally, the first man stops reading and says, “It’s bad enough that you read that pro-Hitler rag. But to laugh at it!”
The second responds with a shrug. “What if I read your paper? It tells me about Jewish windows being broken, Jewish shops boycotted,
Jewish children beaten up in school. So ... if I read the Hitler paper, it tells me that we Jews control the whole world.”

If ‘the Jews’ really had such a plan (and I don’t know what Asger means by ‘the Jews … they are a pretty disparate lot), and were so
highly organised, why have they suffered persecution and hatred for centuries, with the physical destruction of per*haps one-third of the
entire group, carried out by a European country and involving the deliberate, state murder of children.

The level of careful and precise coordination required for a small and hugely diverse group of individuals - 'the Jews' according to Asger - to wield
the level of control implied by such a conspiracy theory would be pretty impressive if they carried it out in the open, let alone as part of a secret plan
for collusion that’s kept from public view, despite requiring the complicity of thousands of people.

Only someone who believes that there’s something inherently wrong with the Jewish people could be convinced of such an idea.

Even Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, an SS commandant, said of the Jewish people murdered by the regime to which he belonged:
“Contrary to the opinion of the National Socialists, that the Jews were a highly organised group, the appalling fact was that they had no organisation
whatsoever. The mass of the Jewish people were taken complete by surprise. They did not know at all what to do; they had no directives or slogans
as to how they should act.
This is the greatest lie of anti-Semitism because it gives the lie to that old slogan that the Jews are conspiring to dominate the world and that they are
so highly organised. In reality, they had no organisation of their own at all, not even an information service. If they had had some sort of organisation,
these people could have been saved by the millions, but instead, they were taken completely by surprise. Never before has a people gone as
unsuspectingly to its disaster. Nothing was prepared. Absolutely nothing.”



Douglas Adams said it was the mice.
Many women maintain it's middle-aged white males (95% of the world's leaders are men, and 82% of the top judiciary are men).
Then - get ready to swallow the green pill - there is, of course, the Hibernian conspiracy.
The Catholics say it's the Protestants (I think only one US president has been Catholic)
The Protestants say it's the Catholics.
Lots of people blame the Jesuits.
Many people say it's the North Americans.
The Arabs say it's the Jews.
The communists say it's the capitalists.
The capitalists say it’s the communists
etc
etc
etc

Ultimately, believing that any one particular group is plotting together to ‘take over the world’ is always going to be a flawed belief.
And that’s the core of the problem here - as long as you are believing the myth …. you are looking the other way. And as long as you’re looking the other way,
scapegoating a minority as conspiratorial outsiders and saying they’re responsible for all the wrongs in the world, your attention is distracted from the real
wrong-doers and psychos.

Dumpster Diver
31st October 2017, 16:39
It’s Lucifarians masquerading as Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Bankers, Fortune 500 execs, Politicians, Hollywood tycoons, etc. are a problem. Ultimately we are the problem as we let it happen and remain blind as to the existence and to a cure.

“We have met the enemy and they are us” ~ Pogo

Aragorn
31st October 2017, 16:41
When I saw the title of this thread just now, I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry… if it wasn’t for the fact that this claim has been
used as justification to persecute, abuse, discriminate against and murder a group of people, it would be very funny.

[...]

I have said it before and I will say it again... If the server of The One Truth had been hosted in Europe — and especially here in Belgium or in Germany — then the very existence of threads like these could lead to the server being confiscated, the domain suspended, and everyone on the management thrown in jail. And I'm not joking or exaggerating anything here, because both Nazi propaganda and Holocaust denial are officially criminal offenses — not misdemeanors, but actual crimes.

In and of itself, this repressive law is of course a gross violation of the universal human right to freedom of speech, and in Belgium concretely, it has been brought about because there is a large Jewish community here, distributed across multiple cities but concentrated mostly in Antwerp, the center of the world's diamond trade, and these particular people do indeed control most of that business.

But that said, yes, it is true that too many people are all too eager to blame everything on the Jews, and without making a distinction even between Jews (i.e. people adhering to the Judaic religion) and Zionists (i.e. people who want the Jewish-nationalist state of Israel to grow in power at the cost of other Middle-Eastern peoples). And the US-supported abominable behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinians is certainly not helping matters.

This sort of threads is one of the very reasons as to why the so-called "alternative community" gets such a bad reputation, and why nobody takes us seriously. It is all too easy to sweep up the actual conspiracy researchers with the uninformed, paranoid and self-delusional "conspiracy theorists", and there are way too many of the latter. And that in itself is then also how come the actual conspirators can get away with whatever it is they're doing, i.e. they know that nobody's going to believe the actual researchers when there are so many headless chickens running around, screaming the word "conspiracy" at anything they do not understand.

Yet, because The One Truth will not dictate to its members what they should or shouldn't believe, and because we will not censor our members either, we have to allow threads like these to exist. And unfortunately, this particular subject comes floating to the surface again on a regular basis, just like all those other ridiculous theories...


"The Nazis were the good guys."
"The Holocaust is a lie — it never happened."
"Earth is not round but flat."
"There is no such thing as extraterrestrials. They are all demons, and the only defense against them is to pray to God."
"Jesus died for our sins."
"The communists are conspiring to take over the world and destroy capitalism."
"Muslims hate Americans because they are free."
"ET is coming to save us."
"We are all going to ascend."
"The moon is a hologram."


Feel free to add your favorite delusion to the list here-above. ;)

Emil El Zapato
31st October 2017, 20:12
My favorite delusion is that you accidentally inserted No. 5 in your bullet points.... hahahahahahahahah!!!!!!!! wooohooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Wind
31st October 2017, 21:18
Jews or zionists? This thread seems anti-semitic... I hate it when people talk about "blacks", "jews", "muslims" "mexicans", "whites" etc. as the other. Europe has such a shameful and a horrible history, all those things happened in the 20th century! How many people for example have read Anne Frank's Diary? It's heartbreaking. Now we are again seeing the rise of right wing groups and frankly I think it's embarassingly moronic and disgusting. Nationalism can really be a cancer on this planet and judging others solely based on their skin color or religion... Dear Lord. We all bleed the same color. We are all divine spirits in these decaying meat bags.

enjoy being
31st October 2017, 22:41
I have seen this in other scenarios.
One from 30 years ago was, let us call it, "My Sister's Domination of the Shower".
At the time I was sure she was a witch, sure she was doing it all to annoy me. Acting all innocent when the hot water ran out and I got blamed for it. :(
:-P

modwiz
31st October 2017, 23:59
Jews or zionists? This thread seems anti-semitic... I hate it when people talk about "blacks", "jews", "muslims" "mexicans", "whites" etc. as the other. Europe has such a shameful and a horrible history, all those things happened in the 20th century! How many people for example have read Anne Frank's Diary? It's heartbreaking. Now we are again seeing the rise of right wing groups again and frankly I think it's embarassingly moronic and disgusting. Nationalism can really be a cancer on this planet and judging others solely based on their skin color or religion... Dear Lord. We all bleed the same color. We are all divine spirits in these decaying meat bags.

The extreme cognitive dissonance, (or is it just ignorance?) of the average mind, sees in polarities and/or opposites and we end up with crap like 'the jews did this or that" or some other group is used. Are all Italians Mafia??? I grew up with Jews and am personally acquainted with both the good and the bad. IMO, the good far outweighed the bad. By a very large margin. I ran into 'discrimination' problems with the Jewish and Greek ladies I dated from some families and was treated exceedingly well by others.

The bad will always hide amongst the good for camouflage and go into deeper hiding when SHTF. We humans need to band together, love and understand one another so we can identify and quarantine the psycho and sociopathic critters hiding in every possible ethnic, or other, derivation of our species.

Dreamtimer
1st November 2017, 11:23
Thank you, Modwiz. So true.

What I've learned from my years of friendship with an Orthodox Jew is that they are indeed very diverse and not at all unified. Sunset is even defined differently, depending on the rabbi who is making the determination. Jews still debate and discuss the truth of what happened with Moses, and where they really are on the calendar. They have 613 mitzvahs.

There really ain't time to take over the world.

Now, if you want to talk about specific groups like Chabad and their ideas about money, that's a different topic. I doubt members of Chabad would have even a second of time to waste with my friend. She's not rich enough and not from the right tribe.

pointessa
1st November 2017, 14:24
I have said it before and I will say it again... If the server of The One Truth had been hosted in Europe — and especially here in Belgium or in Germany — then the very existence of threads like these could lead to the server being confiscated, the domain suspended, and everyone on the management thrown in jail. And I'm not joking or exaggerating anything here, because both Nazi propaganda and Holocaust denial are officially criminal offenses — not misdemeanors, but actual crimes.

In and of itself, this repressive law is of course a gross violation of the universal human right to freedom of speech, and in Belgium concretely, it has been brought about because there is a large Jewish community here, distributed across multiple cities but concentrated mostly in Antwerp, the center of the world's diamond trade, and these particular people do indeed control most of that business.

But that said, yes, it is true that too many people are all too eager to blame everything on the Jews, and without making a distinction even between Jews (i.e. people adhering to the Judaic religion) and Zionists (i.e. people who want the Jewish-nationalist state of Israel to grow in power at the cost of other Middle-Eastern peoples). And the US-supported abominable behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinians is certainly not helping matters.

This sort of threads is one of the very reasons as to why the so-called "alternative community" gets such a bad reputation, and why nobody takes us seriously. It is all too easy to sweep up the actual conspiracy researchers with the uninformed, paranoid and self-delusional "conspiracy theorists", and there are way too many of the latter. And that in itself is then also how come the actual conspirators can get away with whatever it is they're doing, i.e. they know that nobody's going to believe the actual researchers when there are so many headless chickens running around, screaming the word "conspiracy" at anything they do not understand.

Yet, because The One Truth will not dictate to its members what they should or shouldn't believe, and because we will not censor our members either, we have to allow threads like these to exist. And unfortunately, this particular subject comes floating to the surface again on a regular basis, just like all those other ridiculous theories...


"The Nazis were the good guys."
"The Holocaust is a lie — it never happened."
"Earth is not round but flat."
"There is no such thing as extraterrestrials. They are all demons, and the only defense against them is to pray to God."
"Jesus died for our sins."
"The communists are conspiring to take over the world and destroy capitalism."
"Muslims hate Americans because they are free."
"ET is coming to save us."
"We are all going to ascend."
"The moon is a hologram."


Feel free to add your favorite delusion to the list here-above. ;)


I really appreciate your response to this thread, and appreciate that you will allow it to remain even though you may not find that it has any merit and may in fact be offensive to some.

What I can't help but wonder is, why some countries have such severe penalties for bringing up anything that could be considered negative towards the established history of the Jews? In fact, some of it is not so much negative as it denies their victim status. To be perfectly honest, it makes me suspicious. I absolutely do not believe these laws are in place out of compassion or regret for the way the Jews were treated. If I were to speak in a negative way about the history of the Vikings, for example, no one would say a thing. So I have to admit, the big kickback by governments makes me suspicious. Is the point really to confuse being Jewish with Zionists That is as good a guess as any. Is the point capitalize on our natural sense of justice to condition us to want to protect anything that comes even close to being related to the Jewish people? To make us fearful to speak out about anything that put us on the list of the politically incorrect?

I am not defending the topic of this thread, to be honest, I don't even understand what is being said here .

Emil El Zapato
1st November 2017, 15:08
In my opinion laws are a last resort and a final appeal to common decency. Hate laws in the U.S. fill the same need...I worked with a guy whose mother was Jewish and his father was Christian. His ethnic identification was WASP. He saw no sense in hate laws because there was no need as laws already existed against crimes such as abuse, assault, and murder. Of course, his conceptual orientation was anti-Black and by derivation the belief that hate crime laws were instituted to 'coddle' and 'mollify' African-Americans.

I suggested an analogy to him one day to help him see through the 'foolishness' (By coincidence there was a visitor that day that happened to be Jewish) .

I asked him if Hitler's crimes were simply murder or genocidal hatred. All I got back from him was a glare!

Aragorn
1st November 2017, 16:47
I have said it before and I will say it again... If the server of The One Truth had been hosted in Europe — and especially here in Belgium or in Germany — then the very existence of threads like these could lead to the server being confiscated, the domain suspended, and everyone on the management thrown in jail. And I'm not joking or exaggerating anything here, because both Nazi propaganda and Holocaust denial are officially criminal offenses — not misdemeanors, but actual crimes.

In and of itself, this repressive law is of course a gross violation of the universal human right to freedom of speech, and in Belgium concretely, it has been brought about because there is a large Jewish community here, distributed across multiple cities but concentrated mostly in Antwerp, the center of the world's diamond trade, and these particular people do indeed control most of that business.

But that said, yes, it is true that too many people are all too eager to blame everything on the Jews, and without making a distinction even between Jews (i.e. people adhering to the Judaic religion) and Zionists (i.e. people who want the Jewish-nationalist state of Israel to grow in power at the cost of other Middle-Eastern peoples). And the US-supported abominable behavior of the Israeli government toward the Palestinians is certainly not helping matters.

This sort of threads is one of the very reasons as to why the so-called "alternative community" gets such a bad reputation, and why nobody takes us seriously. It is all too easy to sweep up the actual conspiracy researchers with the uninformed, paranoid and self-delusional "conspiracy theorists", and there are way too many of the latter. And that in itself is then also how come the actual conspirators can get away with whatever it is they're doing, i.e. they know that nobody's going to believe the actual researchers when there are so many headless chickens running around, screaming the word "conspiracy" at anything they do not understand.

Yet, because The One Truth will not dictate to its members what they should or shouldn't believe, and because we will not censor our members either, we have to allow threads like these to exist. And unfortunately, this particular subject comes floating to the surface again on a regular basis, just like all those other ridiculous theories...

[...]

I really appreciate your response to this thread, and appreciate that you will allow it to remain even though you may not find that it has any merit and may in fact be offensive to some.

I generally try staying out of threads like these because I feel that there is enough ethnic intolerance going round already, and I can only roll my eyes whenever I see a thread like this pop up here at the forum again.

The latter has been especially the case quite a lot in recent times, to such an extent that it's becoming alarming. I suspect that there's some deeper and perhaps organized agenda underlying the resurgence of this type of material. The same is true for the Flat Earth stuff, by the way.


: Sherlock:


What I can't help but wonder is, why some countries have such severe penalties for bringing up anything that could be considered negative towards the established history of the Jews? In fact, some of it is not so much negative as it denies their victim status. To be perfectly honest, it makes me suspicious. I absolutely do not believe these laws are in place out of compassion or regret for the way the Jews were treated. [...]

Well, Germany as a nation still feels very guilty over what the Nazis did, even though that was several generations ago, and only a handful of the original Nazis and an equally small (if not smaller) handful of the original camp survivors would be still alive today.

But I agree with you on this when it comes to other nations, and as I mentioned in the quoted post, Belgium has quite a large Jewish population, and this population also happens to have a great deal of control over the international diamond trade. And so this group has obviously been lobbying with our politicians to have negationism — which is the official legal term for Holocaust denial — not only made illegal, but made into an actual crime. And the fact that there are several neo-Nazi movements here in Europe — including in Germany — certainly hasn't helped matters.

It is also my impression that there is a lot more lenience from the government here in Belgium toward the Jewish population than there is toward the substantially larger Muslim population. But then again, Muslims are seldom the target of religious wars or terrorist attacks, whereas Jews are. So I can understand that the Jewish population does feel somewhat threatened, and — as I've already mentioned higher up — the crimes against humanity committed by the government of the state of Israel are not making Jews appear more sympathetic in the eyes of their enemies, even though the Jews here in Belgium are Belgian nationals, not Israelis, and certainly not members of the Israeli government.

Ethnic intolerance, be it against Jews, against Muslims, against Hindus, against Buddhists, against Sikh, against Christians or against any other group of people, is simply barbaric and stupid beyond belief. I can understand that some people feel uncomfortable with — and possibly even threatened by — the arrival of immigrants from another culture, and at present time, Islam gets a bad reputation because of the violence of fanatical Jihadis. But not every Muslim is a Jihadi, just as not every Jew is a Zionist, and not every Christian is a descendant of the Duke of Alva, who led the Spanish Inquisition.

But then again, my generation grew up with an indoctrination and conditioning that many find hard to let go of. I grew up in an exclusively white and Catholic village, and we were taught at a very young age that Africans were barbaric heathens who ran around naked, or at best wearing a loincloth, and that our Catholic missionaries went over to Africa to bring civilization to these people. I'm not kidding.

And then I found out that the daughter of my father's cousin had been married to an African, and that they had a little girl a few years younger than myself, who was black. It seemed weird, but I accepted it, and especially so because of the sadness of the fact that her mother died of cancer and that her father had abandoned her, and so she had to be raised by her aunt — her mother's sister — who already had several children of her own.

When I was in high school, there was a guy in my class who had been adopted either as a baby or as a toddler, and he was originally from Rwanda. I never had any problems with him. In fact, he was one of the few people in my class who has never once bullied me. And we would sometimes make jokes about him being black — specifically, about his curly hair — but that was all in jest, and he had a great sense of humor, so there was no racism involved.

I even still have a picture of him from our trip to England in our final year of high school, where he had put little daisies through every curl of his scalp so that it looked like he was growing daisies on his head instead of hair, which was quite funny. And back when I was still on Facebook — now many trips around the sun ago — I hooked up with him again, and he was feigning anger with me because I have long hair now while he himself was getting bald. ;)

I don't really have any Jewish friends, because the Jewish population is mostly concentrated in the bigger cities. I do however have several Muslim friends, some of whom I grew up with. They were Turkish immigrants, and that was strange too, especially because they were approximately my age and they didn't speak our language — we were in elementary school at the time. But I befriended those guys — they lived in the next street over from ours, and they always walked home from school with me — and they've remained friends ever since. Some of my other Muslim friends are Egyptian or Moroccan, but apart from one very devout one, most of them are very moderate in their religion.

Pinning people down on — or even worse, stigmatizing them over — their religion, their skin color or even their country of origin is just plain stupid. Sure, there are stereotypes, and those can become a source of (well-intended) humor. There are just as many stereotypes regarding gender and/or sexual orientation, or about certain professional branches, or about social classes, or about people who speak a foreign language, or about blondes, or whatever.

But humor requires making a mental abstraction — not that the people who commonly tell racist/sexist jokes would necessarily be making that abstraction, but that's another matter — and I personally respect each and every human being for who and what they are. We're all human, and as Wind said, we all bleed in the same color. ;)


:unity:

Emil El Zapato
1st November 2017, 17:08
What color is the blood? Red, Blue, or Green. That is a nice story Aragorn...it is good to hear stories of camaraderie among diverse people!

pointessa
2nd November 2017, 13:24
I believe that there would be more camaraderie among genders, cultures, races and religions if the political correctness agenda was not crammed down our throats constantly. I see it as having the opposite effect of what it is allegedly intended to do, and there are very wealthy and influential people that are very aware of this. It seems to me we are having more conflicts of this nature in the last couple of years and I believe it correlates with the PC agenda. Clashes amongst citizens would be a acceptable way to initiate martial law, for example.

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 13:38
It's a matter of how you accept the suggestion, it seems you are hostile towards it. Political correction is a monument to civilization and higher level thinking processes. I can't find anything wrong with that.

Aragorn
2nd November 2017, 15:01
I believe that there would be more camaraderie among genders, cultures, races and religions if the political correctness agenda was not crammed down our throats constantly. I see it as having the opposite effect of what it is allegedly intended to do, and there are very wealthy and influential people that are very aware of this. It seems to me we are having more conflicts of this nature in the last couple of years and I believe it correlates with the PC agenda. Clashes amongst citizens would be a acceptable way to initiate martial law, for example.

I agree 100% with every word you write here-above. :thup:





It's a matter of how you accept the suggestion, it seems you are hostile towards it. Political correction is a monument to civilization and higher level thinking processes. I can't find anything wrong with that.

What's wrong with it is that it's an artificial form of thought policing pushed upon us by way of laws, by way of the advertising industry and even by way of the entertainment sector, instead of being a genuine inter-human respect — which is not the same thing as "political correctness" — which would be a natural evolution sprung from an honest and open social dialog with supportive arguments. It's a matter of establishing something by brute force versus establishing something by way of an informed consensus.

And by the way, that which is considered "politically correct" is actually not "correct" at all. It is merely a meme, as a tool by which certain pressure groups seek to upset a social ecosystem which for whatever reason happens to not be in their own favor at any given point in time.



Ol' George was a little harsh on occasion, but I think I'm going to let him do the talking on this one. ;)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkhUivqzWv0

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 15:17
I agree 100% with every word you write here-above. :thup:






What's wrong with it is that it's an artificial form of thought policing pushed onto us by way of laws, by way of the advertising industry and even by way of the entertainment sector, instead of being a genuine inter-human respect — which is not the same thing as "political correctness" — which would be a natural evolution sprung from an honest and open social dialog with supportive arguments. It's a matter of establishing something by brute force versus establishing something by way of an informed consensus.

And by the way, that which is considered "politically correct" is actually not "correct" at all. It is merely a meme, as a tool by which certain pressure groups seek to upset a social ecosystem which for whatever reason happens to not be in their own favor at any given point in time.



Ol' George was a little harsh on occasion, but I think I'm going to let him do the talking on this one. ;)




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkhUivqzWv0

Actually, I disagree because: Our words are a direct reflection of our thought processes. That's inescapable. We think low thoughts, we talk dirty. While you might think that you are anti-PC, your words as actions belie that fact. Despite that some elements of the 'ptb' are telling us that to treat one another in a civilized fashion doesn't make it something to oppose. A better mindset is to realize that it is YOU that is making the decision to be a more elevated being, not the 'ptb'.

George Carlin was/is no doubt a very sapient human being but we have to remember that his schtick was satire and all the value it added to 'awakening' it isn't the last word in sociological philosophy.

Aragorn
2nd November 2017, 15:56
Actually, I disagree because: Our words are a direct reflection of our thought processes. That's inescapable. We think low thoughts, we talk dirty.

That's exactly why I said that there's a difference between what I call "political correctness" — i.e. the brute-force thought policing — and an informed consensus opinion.

If you want people to change their minds, then you're going to have to talk about it with all parties concerned. Ramming things down people's throats is oppression, and I don't know about you, but I've had enough of that in my life — from my parents, from (some of) my peers, from my educational facilities, and more recently, from the government, the advertising industry and the entertainment sector.

It's getting boring, and it's not going to prevent racist bigots from saying or writing racist things, just as making it extremely hard for well-intended and responsible citizens to legally own a firearm isn't going to stop the criminals from acquiring theirs through the black market.

Oppressive laws only punish the innocent. And those who come up with such laws are themselves usually the least innocent of us all.


While you might think that you are anti-PC, your words as actions belie that fact.

I never said that I would be opposed to having respect for one another, and for all that is. On the contrary, and I do my very best to show respect to everyone — in some cases, even long after they've already lost all respectability. But I'm doing it because of who I am, not because I would be ordered to.


Despite that some elements of the 'ptb' are telling us that to treat one another in a civilized fashion doesn't make it something to oppose.

Not the topic in and of itself, but the way that The Powers That Be™ are trying to push it. That is my gripe. And especially so because they themselves are yet to show any kind of respect for us. Which means that this whole "political correctness" affair would merely be a cover for an agenda of some sorts.




Well, it's one of my gripes, anyway. I've got so many of them that I'm thinking about starting a business in gripe fruits and bottled gripe juice. :p :ha:

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 17:32
wow...your inner 'something' is showing...I don't need to convince you in any case...you're already there... :)

modwiz
2nd November 2017, 19:59
It's a matter of how you accept the suggestion, it seems you are hostile towards it. Political correction is a monument to civilization and higher level thinking processes. I can't find anything wrong with that.


This was a thumbs down post. I will not even unpack the ignorance in it except for a clue. Politics is schizophrenia of the societal mind, in a two party system. More than that is, multi-personality disorder.

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 20:33
oh now, Mr Modwiz...I appreciate your perspective but you are wrong...Internal vs External locus of control

Let me say this though...I do respect your knowledge and the non-superficiality of your thought process SO:

Convince me why I am so wrong...with one caveat: Do not reference the ptb.

modwiz
2nd November 2017, 21:36
Convince me why I am so wrong...with one caveat: Do not reference the ptb.

I will pass. For real discussions, I speak with people. Text is a poor communication medium.

Octopus Garden
2nd November 2017, 21:53
I believe that there would be more camaraderie among genders, cultures, races and religions if the political correctness agenda was not crammed down our throats constantly. I see it as having the opposite effect of what it is allegedly intended to do, and there are very wealthy and influential people that are very aware of this. It seems to me we are having more conflicts of this nature in the last couple of years and I believe it correlates with the PC agenda. Clashes amongst citizens would be a acceptable way to initiate martial law, for example.

Have to agree. The emphasis on 'safe spaces,' 'trigger warnings,' etc...has really ramped up just recently. It seems very agenda driven. I have always harboured a secret suspicion that the hard right not only donates campaign money to certain left leaning pols (Ralph Nader) to split the left vote, but also funds extreme progressive agendas, in the hopes of creating a backlash. Lots of games being played.

modwiz
2nd November 2017, 22:26
Have to agree. The emphasis on 'safe spaces,' 'trigger warnings,' etc...has really ramped up just recently. It seems very agenda driven. I have always harboured a secret suspicion that the hard right not only donates campaign money to certain left leaning pols (Ralph Nader) to split the left vote, but also funds extreme progressive agendas, in the hopes of creating a backlash. Lots of games being played.

Your language points to a big problem. As long as the common people think in Left and Right terms with regard to ideology we fall into the box/trap crafted for us and become tools/weapons against ourselves.

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 22:33
well, I agree OG, I'd go one step further, I think they provide dead bodies to fuel conspiracies against the left.

Perhaps there is no real left/right paradigm if so, I presume the right has agreed to play the side of the board that includes dungeons, whips, grand inquisitors, and Machiavellian characters?

Emil El Zapato
2nd November 2017, 22:42
As for 'Safe Spaces', if the human species needs anything essential and imminent it is a safe place. One never has to choose a safe place if they don't wish. Having been raised in a storm without a port, I have a deep and abiding soft spot in my heart for children that are buffeted by the insanity of our day-to-day experience.

pointessa
3rd November 2017, 14:23
Actually, I disagree because: Our words are a direct reflection of our thought processes. That's inescapable. We think low thoughts, we talk dirty. While you might think that you are anti-PC, your words as actions belie that fact. Despite that some elements of the 'ptb' are telling us that to treat one another in a civilized fashion doesn't make it something to oppose. A better mindset is to realize that it is YOU that is making the decision to be a more elevated being, not the 'ptb'.

George Carlin was/is no doubt a very sapient human being but we have to remember that his schtick was satire and all the value it added to 'awakening' it isn't the last word in sociological philosophy.

Our words are not necessarily a direct reflection of our thought processes, if they don't evolve from our own thought processes but are merely a parroting of what we feel we are expected to say in order to have acceptance in our current culture. For instance, if I were to deny any aspect of the accepted Holocaust history (and I am not doing this) I already know that I would be met with a torrent of righteous indignation. Not because everyone is an expert about every detail of the Holocaust but because we have been deeply conditioned to be outraged with anyone that disagrees with the established history. The same type of sentiment might be triggered if I were to disagree with the historical accuracy of Christmas and the birth of Jesus on December 25th.

I am only beginning to see the deep level of programming that we operate under. How many thoughts and beliefs that I have are my own? I have no idea, but I bet it is a lot less than I think. That brings to question a deeper thought: who or what am I? A collection of programming that I have been willing to take on to establish some acceptance with certain groups that I wish to feel affiliated with? I suspect that these thoughts, beliefs and opinions are merely layers of distraction and somewhere underneath all of this there is an open eyed, unopinionated observer just taking this whole thing in.

On another note, if PC is such a positive influence, why is it having the opposite effect of what it is supposed to accomplish? I have never believed that you can mandate decency and respect.

Emil El Zapato
3rd November 2017, 14:31
Good points about our levels of awareness, much of it does take place at the meta-cognitive level so I guess we just have to deal with that. Society has always, I mean always been in the business of mandating decency, respect, and morality and I certainly wouldn't presume to judge whether or not that is just or even justified. But that really isn't my point, the attempts at mandate are a sideshow, the real emphasis should be on who and what we are at our core. I, for one, desire to be decent and respectful. The fact that so many are irked by the very thought suggests that is the conceptual locale to examine the issue.

Fred Steeves
3rd November 2017, 18:36
Hey pointessa, welcome to "Chapel Perilous".
http://www.tekgnostics.com/CHAPEL.HTM#.WfymJZbD-24

Octopus Garden
3rd November 2017, 21:30
Your language points to a big problem. As long as the common people think in Left and Right terms with regard to ideology we fall into the box/trap crafted for us and become tools/weapons against ourselves.

There are definite factions within the deep state. One can easily be referred to as 'hard right' And the other, another wing of the perpetual war, military banking and entertainment complex is what you might call neo-liberal. There is real competition going on here and none of them are good guys. Many identified Hildebeest democratic machinery as the problem, forgetting that in order to rise to the level of even competing in this game you have to be playing for one of the teams.

To give a teeny tiny amount of credit where it is due (though I distrust and dislike this dude) Obama was moving the country away from Zionist control. This is why Netanyahoo hated him so much. Now, the U.S is clearly moving back into the Israeli sphere of influence and control. More control under Obama was given to the CIA --and the military, including their intelligence arms, took a bit of a shellacking.

Look what is happening now. Nowhere does anybody reference any agency but the NSA and CIA as Deep State. They forget the military, which is a branch of govt that has most ties to Zion. They are going to have the most power overseas, where control is most overt and less clandestine. This is traditional. But at home, their intelligence agencies likely rival any of the other letter agencies and as they are not technically forbidden, (as is the CIA to engage in clandestine acitivities on domestic soil,) they may be MORE active.

This is where the real force behind Trump lies.

pointessa
4th November 2017, 12:32
Hey pointessa, welcome to "Chapel Perilous".
http://www.tekgnostics.com/CHAPEL.HTM#.WfymJZbD-24

You have me really intrigued. I will comment after I have perused the site!!! thanks for the interest....

tarka the duck
4th November 2017, 21:29
You raise some interesting ideas Pointessa - here are some of my thoughts about what you've written:


What I can't help but wonder is, why some countries have such severe penalties for bringing up anything that could be considered negative towards the established history of the Jews?

For the record, I’d just like to say that I believe that the best way to combat hate speech
- which includes Holocaust denial - is to keep it out in the open and to confront the perpetrators. I don’t think that laws are the way to go,
but I do acknowledge the reason why some countries have decided to follow that route.

It’s really important to understand that many of the countries that have laws making holocaust denial a crime are those that were
directly affected by the actions of the Nazis and witnessed first hand within living memory - both as victims and perpetrators -
the effects of such hatred:
Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania.

Whether we agree or not, these countries made the decision that free speech is not a be all and end all, but must be balanced
against the other rights of the people in their society, and regard the right for an individual not to be subjected to racism, xenophobia
and anti-semitism as being worth upholding.

“Bringing up anything that could be considered negative “ is a serious understatement: it’s about much more than that.

The small group of people who have actually been prosecuted for Holocaust denial are not merely those who casually mention
down the pub that they doubt the truth of certain historical events. They are hard core deniers, as evidenced by their actions
and words over many years - and they go far beyond saying “anything that could be considered negative”.

Also, many of these countries listed include laws against Holocaust denial as part of broader legislation against all genocide denial,
hate speech, racial vilification and denial of crimes against humanity: it’s not just about ‘the Jews’.

It’s a good idea to read the relevant laws of each country to really understand what's being implemented.



If I were to speak in a negative way about the history of the Vikings, for example, no one would say a thing.

Because no one tried to remove them from the face of the earth through a state-organised extermination programme run on an industrial scale ...

Perhaps a better analogy would be to consider what would happen if you were to go to Armenia, and state - loudly and in public that the genocide
of 1.5m people by the Ottoman government never happened.

Or stand up in Nanking and deny the massacre that was carried out by Japanese troops there in 1937.
Or tell the Tutsi that they’re exaggerating when they say that a million of them were murdered in 100 days.
Or deny the massacres perpetrated on the Native American people …

People would definitely say something then :o



For instance, if I were to deny any aspect of the accepted Holocaust history (and I am not doing this) I already know that I would be met with
a torrent of righteous indignation.

I think the key word here is ‘deny’. If you are denying something, you’re stating definitively that it’s not true. That closed mindedness is part of the reason why you’d be met
with a torrent of righteous indignation.

If, however, you approached this topic with an attitude of enquiry, and could present a comprehensive and well thought out argument, supported by evidence,
people would pay attention: the problem here is that deniers are not able to do that.

For some, a reaction of ‘righteous indignation’ may well be the result of programming or conditioning as you say, but for many of us, it comes from
an understanding of what lies beneath the words of those who deny the Holocaust.

Interestingly, I could reverse your statement and say when I have presented the accepted Holocaust history on certain platforms - including a couple of alternative
media forums - I have often been met with the same torrent of righteous indignation, along with ad hominem attacks, threats, and accusations of being a shill …


To be perfectly honest, it makes me suspicious.
May I ask - are you also suspicious about other laws against denial of genocide and other crimes against humanity?
Or are you just suspicious about the laws against Holocaust denial?


Over the years, I’ve engaged with many ‘professional’ (my term) Holocaust deniers, and I’ve found time and time again that when you scratch
the surface with such individuals, the same poison oozes out every time. We’re not talking about those who ask sincere questions in order to
better understand well documented historical events. We’re talking about those who attempt to deny Jews the right to remember their collective history.
You have to ask yourself, why would they do that?

It’s very easy to distinguish between people with genuine sense of enquiry and a sincere questioning of the historical narrative, and people who deliberately
perpetuate an agenda of hate and intolerance, and are intent on conveying hatred against a particular group. These individuals are driven by ideology,
and are emotionally invested in promoting their fantasies - and they all show the same wilful refusal to consider evidence.

Emil El Zapato
4th November 2017, 21:40
Good points Tarka and the poison always oozes despite protestations to the obvious. Another small point is an answer to the Viking question.

Whom with any degree of social influence is going to go after the Vikings? Two critical realities that should be part of any discussion are who has the power and whom is the subject of the pogromatic rants. Just off the top of my brain I can't think of anyone that is out to get the Vikings, (Personally, my favorite has always been Erik the Red) but perhaps that is as yet an undiscovered effort.

Aragorn
5th November 2017, 00:05
[...] Perhaps a better analogy would be to consider what would happen if you were to go to Armenia, and state - loudly and in public that the genocide of 1.5m people by the Ottoman government never happened. [...]

And in Turkey, the opposite is true. In Turkey, it is illegal to state that the Ottoman empire committed genocide against the Armenians. And likewise, in Japan it was for a long time illegal to state that Japan had committed genocide at Nanking — I believe that Japan has officially apologized for this genocide now, a number of years ago, which means that they've accepted their responsibility and therefore it should be debatable now.

I have personally also already been called every ugly name in the book for stating that the two nuclear bombs that the USA dropped on Japan during World War II were genocide. :hmm:

Wind
5th November 2017, 00:39
I have personally also already been called every ugly name in the book for stating that the two nuclear bombs that the USA dropped on Japan during World War II were genocide. :hmm:

And to this date many people claim that was the right thing to do and it ended the war more swiftly and (US) casualties were avoided... Interesting logic indeed. When humans learned to split the atom, we literally opened the Pandora's box and it's still open. Weapons of collective self-annihilation still exist and just are waiting to be launched.

Humans are extremely good at organized killing and that is a sad fact.

If we deny our shadow, then we will never be able to heal fully as a species.

http://www.thebiganswer.info/Political-Killings.jpg

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 12:57
And in Turkey, the opposite is true. In Turkey, it is illegal to state that the Ottoman empire committed genocide against the Armenians. And likewise, in Japan it was for a long time illegal to state that Japan had committed genocide at Nanking — I believe that Japan has officially apologized for this genocide now, a number of years ago, which means that they've accepted their responsibility and therefore it should be debatable now.

I have personally also already been called every ugly name in the book for stating that the two nuclear bombs that the USA dropped on Japan during World War II were genocide. :hmm:

Hi Aragorn,

In one of my posts I mentioned a teacher that I had that blew up and threw a marker that exploded all over a fellow student.

One of the reasons he despised me was because he and his father, a WWII veteran, were of the mind that Japanese shouldn't be allowed to visit Pearl Harbor. Remember this is Kansas, not exactly a bastion of enlightened thinkers. I countered his stated belief with the notion that Japanese felt very much the same about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The man hated me I tell you!

tarka the duck
5th November 2017, 13:02
And in Turkey, the opposite is true. In Turkey, it is illegal to state that the Ottoman empire committed genocide against the Armenians. And likewise, in Japan it was for a long time illegal to state that Japan had committed genocide at Nanking — I believe that Japan has officially apologized for this genocide now, a number of years ago, which means that they've accepted their responsibility and therefore it should be debatable now.

I have personally also already been called every ugly name in the book for stating that the two nuclear bombs that the USA dropped on Japan during World War II were genocide. :hmm:

I think I'm right in saying that pretty well all genocide denial by governments has been because they were the perpetrators of
the massacres. I'm thinking of Turkey, Japan, Sudan, Cambodia etc.

But, conversely, in the case of Holocaust denial, the countries that committed the deeds are the ones that have adopted the laws outlawing
denial ... I'm not sure whether that's unique scenario.

Dreamtimer
5th November 2017, 13:10
Wind, that table is a mind blower.:belief::shocked::flame:

pointessa
5th November 2017, 13:35
You raise some interesting ideas Pointessa - here are some of my thoughts about what you've written:



For the record, I’d just like to say that I believe that the best way to combat hate speech
- which includes Holocaust denial - is to keep it out in the open and to confront the perpetrators. I don’t think that laws are the way to go,
but I do acknowledge the reason why some countries have decided to follow that route.

It’s really important to understand that many of the countries that have laws making holocaust denial a crime are those that were
directly affected by the actions of the Nazis and witnessed first hand within living memory - both as victims and perpetrators -
the effects of such hatred:
Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Hungary, Israel, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania.

Whether we agree or not, these countries made the decision that free speech is not a be all and end all, but must be balanced
against the other rights of the people in their society, and regard the right for an individual not to be subjected to racism, xenophobia
and anti-semitism as being worth upholding.

“Bringing up anything that could be considered negative “ is a serious understatement: it’s about much more than that.

The small group of people who have actually been prosecuted for Holocaust denial are not merely those who casually mention
down the pub that they doubt the truth of certain historical events. They are hard core deniers, as evidenced by their actions
and words over many years - and they go far beyond saying “anything that could be considered negative”.

Also, many of these countries listed include laws against Holocaust denial as part of broader legislation against all genocide denial,
hate speech, racial vilification and denial of crimes against humanity: it’s not just about ‘the Jews’.

It’s a good idea to read the relevant laws of each country to really understand what's being implemented.




Because no one tried to remove them from the face of the earth through a state-organised extermination programme run on an industrial scale ...

Perhaps a better analogy would be to consider what would happen if you were to go to Armenia, and state - loudly and in public that the genocide
of 1.5m people by the Ottoman government never happened.

Or stand up in Nanking and deny the massacre that was carried out by Japanese troops there in 1937.
Or tell the Tutsi that they’re exaggerating when they say that a million of them were murdered in 100 days.
Or deny the massacres perpetrated on the Native American people …

People would definitely say something then :o




I think the key word here is ‘deny’. If you are denying something, you’re stating definitively that it’s not true. That closed mindedness is part of the reason why you’d be met
with a torrent of righteous indignation.

If, however, you approached this topic with an attitude of enquiry, and could present a comprehensive and well thought out argument, supported by evidence,
people would pay attention: the problem here is that deniers are not able to do that.

For some, a reaction of ‘righteous indignation’ may well be the result of programming or conditioning as you say, but for many of us, it comes from
an understanding of what lies beneath the words of those who deny the Holocaust.

Interestingly, I could reverse your statement and say when I have presented the accepted Holocaust history on certain platforms - including a couple of alternative
media forums - I have often been met with the same torrent of righteous indignation, along with ad hominem attacks, threats, and accusations of being a shill …


May I ask - are you also suspicious about other laws against denial of genocide and other crimes against humanity?
Or are you just suspicious about the laws against Holocaust denial?


Over the years, I’ve engaged with many ‘professional’ (my term) Holocaust deniers, and I’ve found time and time again that when you scratch
the surface with such individuals, the same poison oozes out every time. We’re not talking about those who ask sincere questions in order to
better understand well documented historical events. We’re talking about those who attempt to deny Jews the right to remember their collective history.
You have to ask yourself, why would they do that?

It’s very easy to distinguish between people with genuine sense of enquiry and a sincere questioning of the historical narrative, and people who deliberately
perpetuate an agenda of hate and intolerance, and are intent on conveying hatred against a particular group. These individuals are driven by ideology,
and are emotionally invested in promoting their fantasies - and they all show the same wilful refusal to consider evidence.


Thank you for a most thoughtful and well informed post. Perhaps the examples I chose were a poor choice. What I was trying to convey is that programming can condition strong responses from an individual that may not be based on any deep understanding of the actual event. That response might simply be based on societies consensus belief of which we have been programmed to believe , whether accurate or inaccurate.

Personally, I find genocide abhorrent. I am not a detailed historian of these events and do not want to suggest in any way that these events did not take place. I can only imagine the terror these individuals would feel being targeted in any of the events you described.

I think that 9/11 might be a better example to illustrate my point


And to this date many people claim that was the right thing to do and it ended the war more swiftly and (US) casualties were avoided... Interesting logic indeed. When humans learned to split the atom, we literally opened the Pandora's box and it's still open. Weapons of collective self-annihilation still exist and just are waiting to be launched.

Humans are extremely good at organized killing and that is a sad fact.

If we deny our shadow, then we will never be able to heal fully as a species.

http://www.thebiganswer.info/Political-Killings.jpg

I can't help but wonder, if the United States government were listed, what would the numbers be?

Fred Steeves
5th November 2017, 13:52
This video is rather lengthy for casual perusal, but is well worth it in my opinion. Explanations anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtAnuXl5VZY

Dumpster Diver
5th November 2017, 14:14
And in Turkey, the opposite is true. In Turkey, it is illegal to state that the Ottoman empire committed genocide against the Armenians. And likewise, in Japan it was for a long time illegal to state that Japan had committed genocide at Nanking — I believe that Japan has officially apologized for this genocide now, a number of years ago, which means that they've accepted their responsibility and therefore it should be debatable now.

I have personally also already been called every ugly name in the book for stating that the two nuclear bombs that the USA dropped on Japan during World War II were genocide. :hmm:

...or “payback” for the Pearl Harbor “false flag” (remember, how could this have happened given we had broken the Japanese Purple Code and were on a war footing?)

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 14:25
Thank you for a most thoughtful and well informed post. Perhaps the examples I chose were a poor choice. What I was trying to convey is that programming can condition strong responses from an individual that may not be based on any deep understanding of the actual event. That response might simply be based on societies consensus belief of which we have been programmed to believe , whether accurate or inaccurate.

Personally, I find genocide abhorrent. I am not a detailed historian of these events and do not want to suggest in any way that these events did not take place. I can only imagine the terror these individuals would feel being targeted in any of the events you described.

I think that 9/11 might be a better example to illustrate my point



I can't help but wonder, if the United States government were listed, what would the numbers be?

A friend of mine who was a member of Amnesty International stated that the U.S. would be high on any list...


This video is rather lengthy for casual perusal, but is well worth it in my opinion. Explanations anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtAnuXl5VZY

This is a perfect example of sloppy journalism, not conspiracy! I didn't watch the video. And the utlimate result didn't materialize out of the vacuum. It was a process that started God knows when but I suspect reached a crescendo as the Weimar Republic was on its way out. I don't know the exact dates but I'm sure it was relatively early in the 30's

Fred Steeves
5th November 2017, 14:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtAnuXl5VZY



This is a perfect example of sloppy journalism, not conspiracy! I didn't watch the video.

I can't decide whether that statement is a perfect example of an oxymoron, or cognitive dissonance.

Elen
5th November 2017, 14:44
This video is rather lengthy for casual perusal, but is well worth it in my opinion. Explanations anyone?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtAnuXl5VZY

It's amazing how the number (6 millions) on the 6th June 1915, matches exactly the number they blamed on Hitler. Sends out a lot of red flags for me, Fred.

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 14:49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtAnuXl5VZY




I can't decide whether that statement is a perfect example of an oxymoron, or cognitive dissonance.

Neither...it is a simple observation that anyone that cares to see...will!

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 14:56
One of the extant beliefs regarding 'numbers' is that there is legitimate historical misinformation which based on one's predisposition can be viewed as 'sloppy jounalism' or 'conspiracy'. The truth, unfortunately, is often in the eye of the beholder. It is the same old story, do 'I' want to see good or do 'I' want to see bad. One thing that shouldn't be ambiguous in any human being is the belief that murder under any circumstances, including war and politics is wrong. Even if that number is 1.

Depending on how good your memory is Fred, you might recall that I once stated that I would personally take out an individual that was responsible for the deaths of thousands or even millions. That hasn't changed. As has been pointed out, the mind is capable of reconciling ambiguity or dichotomy with aplomb! ... :)

Aragorn
5th November 2017, 14:58
It's amazing how the number (6 millions) on the 6th June 1915, matches exactly the number they blamed on Hitler. Sends out a lot of red flags for me, Fred.

6 million Jews, on the 6th day of the 6th month in the year 1915, otherwise also spelled as '15. Numerologically, 1 + 5 = 6.

In other words, somebody's trying really hard to put a religious spin on things, but it won't have been the Jews, because the number "666" comes from the Apocalypse of John, which is canonical to the New Testament. And that makes it Christian, because Judaism does not recognize anything from the New Testament as part of its lore.


: Sherlock: :eyebrows: :eyebrows: :eyebrows:

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 15:04
Hi Aragorn,

That is a perfect example of how 'info' can be faulty even under the best of circumstances. There was a research study done a number of years ago stating that the number '666' was a mistranslation from the original text. The actual number stated in historical bibilical text is '616'. But that opens a huge can of worms (to paraphrase Aianawa). Eschatology, en toto, is based on a derived interpretation of the bible that was 're-translated' in the late 1800's.

tarka the duck
5th November 2017, 18:11
This video is rather lengthy for casual perusal, but is well worth it in my opinion. Explanations anyone?

I'll bite, Fred ... :eyebrows:

Ah, the old video that's a Stormfront favourite!
I jest not…when I googled the title, I got 3 stormfront hits on the first page…


“Old Newspaper Says SIX MILLION JEWS Died in 1915 - 1938 Before Holocaust …”

No, it didn’t.

Actually, none of those newspapers say that. They say that 6 million Jews are at risk, and that they are being
“persecuted, hounded, humiliatated, tortured, starved”.

Nowhere do any of those papers say that 6 million have died. They all say that 6 million need help.

Perhaps someone could explain to me the problem with 6 million. As far as I can see:

1) All these newspapers are referring to a number of events in the same geographical area,
which had been suffering the Revolution and civil war.

2) 6 million was the approximate number of Jews living under Tsarist Russian rule in the
Pale of Settlement (the area where the Tsar had allowed Jews to settle)and Congress Poland.

3) When these newspapers refer to 6 million Jews in peril, they are refering to all Jews in
Tsarist Russia and then, later on, the areas affected by the Russian Civil War (Ukraine, Belarus etc).

4) There was huge political and social upheaval with famine, persecution, pogroms, nationalism,
anti semitism etc - 2000 Jews had already been murdered in Odessa and other cities a few years before.
Actually, in one of the articles referenced in that video, it tells of 127.000 Jews who had been murdered
in pogroms throughout Ukraine.

So, basically, this whole video is about the fact that 6 million Jews lived in Tsarist Russia in the
early 20th century (particularly in areas which were hit hard with pogroms and later the Russian Civil War
and the famine that followed it).

Why is that suspicious? What am I missing? Why do people seem to think these historical facts are ominous?

Is that because there were approximately 6,000,000 Jews in Eastern Europe/Russia after WW1 (it’s actually thought
to be more like 5.7m), and up to 6,000,000 Jews perished in the Holocaust?

So yes, Not A Pretender, I'd agree: if I’m feeling kind, I too might put it to “sloppy journalism”.
If I’m feeling more logical, I’d take a look at the type of sites that fawn over this video, and form a different opinion. :o

Fred Steeves
5th November 2017, 19:43
I'll bite, Fred ... :eyebrows:

I knew you wouldn't let me down, long time no talk to! :)

“Old Newspaper Says SIX MILLION JEWS Died in 1915 - 1938 Before Holocaust …”


No, it didn’t.

Actually, none of those newspapers say that. They say that 6 million Jews are at risk, and that they are being
“persecuted, hounded, humiliatated, tortured, starved”.

Nowhere do any of those papers say that 6 million have died. They all say that 6 million need help.

Right, from 1915-1938 it's a drumbeat of "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump). One at the end did leave the number out however, and called it a holocaust.

Anyway, what eventually happened to that 6 million on the brink of extinction for 23 years? Did we ever hear more on their plight post WW2? Did they indeed parish, and then Hitler cleaned house on 6 million other Jews? Or did they live happily ever after in Russia post WW2?

Or did they all flee to Germany, Poland, Austria and such, where Hitler got them? That would explain the twin 6,000,000; but that couldn't be, because Hitler had a problem with Germany's Jewish bankers and newspaper owners (and to a lesser extent Jews in general) in the 20's, so that 6,000,000 was pretty much already in place in the surrounding areas. Do you see where I'm going with this?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, and mind you I'm not saying severe atrocities didn't happen, just trying to put some of these pieces together so that these numbers make sense. Why 6 million in two places at once? 6,000,000, it reminds me of numbers like 666, 777, 144,000, etc. These magical numbers that get etched into our consciousness.

EDIT: After posting this, I happened to glance over and see that I've been thanked 2,666 times LOL.

Aragorn
5th November 2017, 20:06
Right, from 1915-1938 it's a drumbeat of "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump). One at the end did leave the number out however, and called it a holocaust.

Anyway, what eventually happened to that 6 million on the brink of extinction for 23 years? Did we ever hear more on their plight post WW2? Did they indeed parish, and then Hitler cleaned house on 6 million other Jews? Or did they live happily ever after in Russia post WW2?

No, because Joseph Stalin was responsible for the death of 7'000'000 Jews during World War II, on top of the 6'000'000 who died because of the Nazis. So the total number of Jews who died because of atrocities committed by authoritarian regimes during Word War II is actually 13'000'000.

The main difference in that regard between Hitler and Stalin was that in Stalin's case, it wasn't a systematic genocide against Jews in particular. They were just casualties of war, as far as he was concerned. Hitler on the other hand had all Jews on the territory of Nazi-Germany — which included all occupied nations — intentionally rounded up in concentration camps with the intent of exterminating them. He called it "die Entlösung", which is German for "the solution".

Fred Steeves
5th November 2017, 21:00
No, because Joseph Stalin was responsible for the death of 7'000'000 Jews during World War II, on top of the 6'000'000 who died because of the Nazis. So the total number of Jews who died because of atrocities committed by authoritarian regimes during Word War II is actually 13'000'000.

OK, so you're saying that the now 7,000,000 Jews from 1915, did finally indeed perish under Stalin, with 6,000,000 more dying under Hitler. But according to that I'm still having a numbers problem; 13 million, that's 1 million more Jews than these newspaper articles of the time claim existed on this entire planet.

Emil El Zapato
5th November 2017, 22:59
I have to ask one question...it seems that there is some confusion regarding the numbers (I did post earlier that is one area where there is a general consensus that a problem exists) but to be more to the point here is the question. It's argued that some sinister take over the world cabal has organized this conspiracy, to be uncharacteristically blunt a Zionist cabal :eyebrows:. How in the name of common sense do these people have a hope of accomplishing that if they can't even get their numbers correct? They are doomed to failure! It's like the false flags and supposed 'staging' of crime scenes. These staged scenes are so amateurish in nature that no one with a lick of sense would believe that there was any organization behind the crime, unless, the organizers are known to be at the bottom of the intelligence bell curve and investigators just go with that knowledge.

Aragorn
6th November 2017, 12:19
OK, so you're saying that the now 7,000,000 Jews from 1915, did finally indeed perish under Stalin, with 6,000,000 more dying under Hitler. But according to that I'm still having a numbers problem; 13 million, that's 1 million more Jews than these newspaper articles of the time claim existed on this entire planet.

But how do we know these newspaper articles are legit? How do we know this is not some kind of Richard-Doty-style publication by someone with the intent of questioning or denying the Holocaust? :hmm:

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 12:39
Hi Aragorn,

Very true, cherry-picked stories that in their time might have been retracted or even discounted or just gossip that was in a general sense true but not statistically accurate.

Fred Steeves
6th November 2017, 13:18
But how do we know these newspaper articles are legit? How do we know this is not some kind of Richard-Doty-style publication by someone with the intent of questioning or denying the Holocaust? :hmm:

Ha, funny you bring Doty up. I didn't see that one coming LOL! Those didn't look like real newspapers to you?

How about this, so happens I've been doing a bit of digging this morning. This first link is to a vanilla internet archive, it's basically a library with no political or racial issues involved. This is not a "Stormfront" site... Even so I spot checked some here and there, and they matched up perfectly to the claimed source news outlet's archives. According to these snippets of articles the plight of this infamous 6,000,000 actually started *before* 1915, back to 1900:


1900 - Stephen S. Wise, New York Times, June 11, 1900: "There are 6,000,000 living,
bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism."

And here in 1911, talking about "complete annihilation for six million people":



1911 - Max Nordeau speaking at The 1911 Zionist Congress. Hecht, Ben. Perfidy. NY; Julian
Messner. 1961. page 254: "But the same righteous Governments, who are so nobly,
industriously active to establish the eternal peace, are preparing, by their own confession,
complete annihilation for six million people,

https://archive.org/stream/TwoHundredSixMillionJewsAllegationsFrom19001945/TwoHundredSixMillionJewsAllegationsFrom1900-1945_djvu.txt

And this I had never heard of, "The American Jewish Yearbook", has the plight of the 6,000,000 dated even *further* back, all the way to 1890!


Russia has since 1890 adopted a deliberate plan to expel or exterminate six millions of it's people

http://balder.org/judea/billeder-judea/Six-Million-Holocaust-Russians-Jewish-Year-Book-1911.jpg

Now, just what am I supposed to think of this? From 1890-1945 at WW 2's end is 55 years, that's two whole generations of supposed genocide, or looming genocide. Yet the number always holds at 6,000,000.

Really???

I'm just asking the questions folks, what the hell is going on here?

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 13:27
The Final Solution?

pointessa
6th November 2017, 15:42
Ha, funny you bring Doty up. I didn't see that one coming LOL! Those didn't look like real newspapers to you?

How about this, so happens I've been doing a bit of digging this morning. This first link is to a vanilla internet archive, it's basically a library with no political or racial issues involved. This is not a "Stormfront" site... Even so I spot checked some here and there, and they matched up perfectly to the claimed source news outlet's archives. According to these snippets of articles the plight of this infamous 6,000,000 actually started *before* 1915, back to 1900:



And here in 1911, talking about "complete annihilation for six million people":



https://archive.org/stream/TwoHundredSixMillionJewsAllegationsFrom19001945/TwoHundredSixMillionJewsAllegationsFrom1900-1945_djvu.txt

And this I had never heard of, "The American Jewish Yearbook", has the plight of the 6,000,000 dated even *further* back, all the way to 1890!



http://balder.org/judea/billeder-judea/Six-Million-Holocaust-Russians-Jewish-Year-Book-1911.jpg

Now, just what am I supposed to think of this? From 1890-1945 at WW 2's end is 55 years, that's two whole generations of supposed genocide, or looming genocide. Yet the number always holds at 6,000,000.

Really???

I'm just asking the questions folks, what the hell is going on here?


You have done some really interesting research here, Fred. If this information really was printed in these newspapers and they do look legit, it begins to paint a picture much different standard narrative, which seems to pin the persecution of Jews squarely on Hitler and the Nazi party. If there is truth to these articles that would not be a complete assessment.

Does the repeated number of 6 million represent sloppy journalism? Was that number passed down from one article to another? Rather than each journalist conducting their own research, maybe they were content to cut and paste the already established stats, even though that 6 million number is not used in exactly the same context each time.

Although I do think those newspapers looked legit, I realize it would be possible to create great replicas. I also couldn't help but wonder how one person could get original copies of all of these newspapers? It also seemed strange that he was looking at them on the floor. I would expect that they would be treated a little more carefully...

Anyway, just a couple of observations. Getting to the truth of matters never seems to be an easy process in this bizarro world that we live in.

Fred Steeves
6th November 2017, 16:17
You have done some really interesting research here, Fred. If this information really was printed in these newspapers and they do look legit, it begins to paint a picture much different standard narrative, which seems to pin the persecution of Jews squarely on Hitler and the Nazi party. If there is truth to these articles that would not be a complete assessment.

Thank you. When something gets my interest I like to start digging. The vast majority of the time it doesn't amount to a hill of beans; there are good reasonable and rational explanations, and I quickly move on. There are times however, that the more I scratch below the surface, the more things start looking not quite right. Like smelling smoke, and where there's smoke there's usually fire.

So aside from the weird numbers thing going on, here is another one I'm hoping for a simple explanation to. A new Jewish homeland was in the works during WW 1 or even before, with you guessed it, the Brits once more right square in the middle of the scrum. British Intelligence, I'm telling you they are the best of the best, and have got their little fingers in practically every pie out there. See? I'm equal opportunity :).

Anyway, came across this snooping around during lunch break. And please, someone demonstrate to me how this is all really on the up and up:


The final British pledge, and the one that formally committed the British to the Zionist cause, was the Balfour Declaration of November 1917. Before the emergence of David Lloyd George as prime minister and Arthur James Balfour as foreign secretary in December 1916, the Liberal Herbert Asquith government had viewed a Jewish entity in Palestine as detrimental to British strategic aims in the Middle East. Lloyd George and his Tory supporters, however, saw British control over Palestine as much more attractive than the proposed British-French condominium. Since the Sykes-Picot Agreement, Palestine had taken on increased strategic importance because of its proximity to the Suez Canal, where the British garrison had reached 300,000 men, and because of a planned British attack on Ottoman Syria originating from Egypt. Lloyd George was determined, as early as March 1917, that Palestine should become British and that he would rely on its conquest by British troops to obtain the abrogation of the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

In the new British strategic thinking, the Zionists appeared as a potential ally capable of safeguarding British imperial interests in the region. Furthermore, as British war prospects dimmed throughout 1917, the War Cabinet calculated that supporting a Jewish entity in Palestine would mobilize America's influential Jewish community to support United States intervention in the war and sway the large number of Jewish Bolsheviks who participated in the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution to keep Russia in the war. Fears were also voiced in the Foreign Office that if Britain did not come out in favor of a Jewish entity in Palestine the Germans would preempt them. Finally, both Lloyd George and Balfour were devout churchgoers who attached great religious significance to the proposed reinstatement of the Jews in their ancient homeland.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/palestine-during-world-war-i

Was ist das highlighted in red? The Germans might preempt them in being in favor of a Jewish entity in Palestine?

So they're squabbling over prized possessions all over the Middle East (nothing changes eh?), with the top issue being to get the Jews into Palestine. The Treaty of Versailles shredded the Middle East into clunky new elements, but stopped short of this one big lofty goal. But WW 2 right on it's heels was able to finally seal the deal. Hmmmm, I smell more smoke...

tarka the duck
6th November 2017, 16:55
Right, from 1915-1938 it's a drumbeat of "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump), "it's happening here it comes" (thump).

Yes. Sadly, it was happening.

Read up on the history of that area. It is tragic beyond words. And that is what those newspaper articles are referring to.

In the interwar period, the history of the areas mentioned in the newspaper articles is turbulent to say the least.
Borders were changing, new nations were being created, nationalism was strong, and times were very hard for many,
before, during and after the Russian Revolution and civil war.

When the borders of Soviet Russia were re-written after WW1, large numbers of Jews who had previously been living in
Russia suddenly found themselves outside the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe - and they
were not always welcome.

In Ukraine, for example, there were pogroms during and after the Russian Revolution and civil war where thousands of Jews
were murdered. In 1918 -19, there were 1,200 pogroms. By the end of it, 30,000 Jews had been murdered, 150,000 had
died from disease and injury and half a million were homeless.

That is what those newspaper articles are referring to.




Or did they all flee to Germany, Poland, Austria and such, where Hitler got them?

Look at the list countries the Nazi invaded: many are the ones named in those newspapers.



Why 6 million in two places at once?

There weren’t 6 million in two places at once.

Let’s try again here. :o

1) Approximately 6 million Jews lived in the Eastern Europe/Tsarist Russia during a very turbulent time.
2) They were being discriminated against, persecuted, tortured, made homeless, murdered.
3) Some newspapers reported that fact, as stated in that video.

The Third Reich then came along.

1) They invaded (among other places) most the countries in that area.
2) They murdered around 6 million Jews throughout Europe.
3) To help you along, here are the estimated number of Jew killed in those countries we’re talking about:

Belorussia 245,000
Bohemia/Moravia 80,000
Bulgaria 11.400
Estonia 1,500
Hungary 450,000
Latvia 70,000
Lithuanian 220,000
Poland 2,900,000
Russia 107,000
Romania 270,000
Slovakia 71,000
Ukraine 900,000
Yugoslavia 60,000


I have to ask one question...it seems that there is some confusion regarding the numbers (I did post earlier that is one area where there is a general consensus that a problem exists) but to be more to the point here is the question. It's argued that some sinister take over the world cabal has organized this conspiracy, to be uncharacteristically blunt a Zionist cabal :eyebrows:. How in the name of common sense do these people have a hope of accomplishing that if they can't even get their numbers correct? They are doomed to failure! It's like the false flags and supposed 'staging' of crime scenes. These staged scenes are so amateurish in nature that no one with a lick of sense would believe that there was any organization behind the crime, unless, the organizers are known to be at the bottom of the intelligence bell curve and investigators just go with that knowledge.


:chrs:

That reminds me of the ridiculous "Protocols": to think that this group, who was supposed to comprise
genius masterminds plotting the takeover of the world through their dastardly plan conceived
in a cemetery in the middle of the night .... was also stupid enough to write it down.



Does the repeated number of 6 million represent sloppy journalism?

No. As I tried to explain in post 57 - clearly not very well! - the papers were writing
about 6 million Jews living in a part of the world where they were being persecuted.

tarka the duck
6th November 2017, 17:30
I'm just asking the questions folks, what the hell is going on here?

You're referencing two different events, Fred. That's why you're confused :smiley hug:

At the risk of repeating myself ...
6 million Jews at risk in Eastern Europe/Russia.
A few decades later, 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis, along with 5 million non-Jews.

Simples.

Fred Steeves
6th November 2017, 19:20
There weren’t 6 million in two places at once.

Let’s try again here.

1) Approximately 6 million Jews lived in the Eastern Europe/Tsarist Russia during a very turbulent time.
2) They were being discriminated against, persecuted, tortured, made homeless, murdered.
3) Some newspapers reported that fact, as stated in that video.

The Third Reich then came along.

1) They invaded (among other places) most the countries in that area.
2) They murdered around 6 million Jews throughout Europe.


You're referencing two different events, Fred. That's why you're confused

At the risk of repeating myself ...
6 million Jews at risk in Eastern Europe/Russia.
A few decades later, 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis, along with 5 million non-Jews.

Simples.

Yikes, not so simple. I was hoping for a little more clarity than that! :) So let me see if I have this straight now.

Beginning as far back as 1890 (maybe even earlier), 6 million Jews are at risk of immediate extermination by the Russian government. It's the same in 1900, 1910, 1920, and all the way well into the 1930's. For 40+ years the world is being told of imminent genocide, genocide that never actually materializes until the 6 million finally falls straight into the loving arms of Hitler's Panzer Divisions.

So Russia never actually wound up committing that perpetually imminent genocide over the span of several decades? Suddenly Hitler got the full 6 million all to himself, and that's the end of the story?

And this 6 million, how does it stay the same from 1890 through to the Nuremberg Trials?

I find it interesting how the whole time it's Russia gonna do the dirty, and suddenly Germany gets to own it.

If I'm confused, it's because the information I'm receiving isn't adding up in my eyes. I'm not one that's here to tell all that Hitler was really the good guy as I don't believe that for one second, all sides committed unspeakable atrocities, I'm just putting myself out there that this official version is not making a lot of sense to me.


3) To help you along, here are the estimated number of Jew killed in those countries we’re talking about:

Belorussia 245,000
Bohemia/Moravia 80,000
Bulgaria 11.400
Estonia 1,500
Hungary 450,000
Latvia 70,000
Lithuanian 220,000
Poland 2,900,000
Russia 107,000
Romania 270,000
Slovakia 71,000
Ukraine 900,000
Yugoslavia 60,000

Source?

enjoy being
6th November 2017, 19:56
My country only has 4.5 million population. The growth has sped up in recent years with huge immigration numbers, but prior to that the growth was around 20-30 years per million, with it being more like 50 years for the first million. A lot of that still being immigration. And all nationalities and religious bents are included in those numbers.

I guess it depends on the population pool and how many were left, but maybe the thread should be called The Jewish Domination of Maternity Wards.

Actually the numbers are probably more 30-40 years and 60 for the first million.
We took 160 years or so to grow a population of 4.6 million, I dare say it is a bit faster in higher population continents.

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 20:26
The place to start would be the demographics of the population group. Younger age means more births...of course...

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 20:29
Hey Aragorn,

Are you a numerologist?

Here's a birthdate for you: Jun 14 1946

Aragorn
6th November 2017, 20:39
Hey Aragorn,

Are you a numerologist?

No, not really. ;) I just happen to be familiar with a few concepts from numerology, such as the Base-9 system, whereby every number can be reduced to a number from 1 to 9. And anything added with 9 remains the same in base value, while anything multiplied by 9 becomes 9 in base value. ;)


Here's a birthdate for you: Jun 14 1946


14 = 1 + 4 = 5
June is the 6th month
1946 = 1 + 9 + 4 + 6 = 20 = 2 + 0 = 2

_______________________________________

5 + 6 + 2 = 13 = 1 + 3 = 4


4 is the number of the cosmos. ;)

enjoy being
6th November 2017, 21:03
My birth date is a base 9, 8.
On one numerology site my numerology number for my full name is 1, and that I have a soul urge of 22.
On another, my numerology number is 3.
Another site that says it is Vedic numerology, has my name number as 5.

DMt.
6th November 2017, 21:08
It looks very like Zionism in general has its original roots in Britain [via both Henry the 8th and Cromwell's invoking the monetary aid of the Venetian banker families, who then married wholesale into the "British aristocracy"] - and it was no less ugly then, but the targets were different - Native Americans [and Negroes too, though slavery isn't the subject of this article];

https://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2013/07/25/lest-we-forget-british-zionism-against-the-native-americans/

Aragorn
6th November 2017, 21:19
My birth date is a base 9, 8.
On one numerology site my numerology number for my full name is 1, and that I have a soul urge of 22.
On another, my numerology number is 3.
Another site that says it is Vedic numerology, has my name number as 5.

In the Hebrew alphabet, every character represents both a phoneme and a number, and this is what the numerological significance in the original Kabbalah is based upon. However, we westerners use a different alphabet, and many different types of numerology have arisen under the influence of New Age spirituality. For that matter, the Jewish calendar has changed quite a lot across the five-plus millennia that Judaism exists, so it's difficult to map out a western date to the Jewish calendar. ;)


P.S.: The last four posts on this thread actually belong on the "Jewish Domination" thread, so I'm moving them there. This has nothing to do with Donald Trump. ;)

enjoy being
6th November 2017, 21:38
Yeah Trump is probably more into the I Ching.

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 22:33
I was looking for 616... :)

Emil El Zapato
6th November 2017, 22:51
Actually, that was Donald James Trump's birthday...

but ok...I thought I had screwed up... :)

It's the same with Western and Eastern astrology...things have changed. I had a co-worker friend that practiced Eastern Astrology and would go so far as to travel to Asia to consort with'Eastern Mystics'. One day, he said he wanted to do my chart and I was a bit ambivalent about it. He said not to laugh...that there was in fact something to astrology. So, I started asking him questions about Eastern Astrology and offering counter-points from the perspective of Western Astrology. I managed to stump him...so, naturally, I quipped, "My astrology is stronger than your astrology!" Get it, get it...what a hoot!

pointessa
7th November 2017, 14:14
We have all heard explanations of why Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, but why did Russia want to do that in 1890's?

Fred Steeves
7th November 2017, 14:47
At the suggestion of our friend Tarka The Duck, I spent this morning's research time looking into the history of Jews in Russia, the history of Zionism and such. The two main things that caught my eye seems to be that they didn't like to assimilate into typical Russian society, and the Russians had a big problem with the Talmud. I will happily stand corrected if that, or a portion thereof is incorrect.

It actually reminds me a bit of how many Westerners have a problem with Muslims in today's world; dislike for that particular religion, and certain large pockets not liking to assimilate into typical Western society.

Now of this part I am more sure of, that the trouble actually started much earlier than the 1890's, all the way back into the early 1800's.

One more thing of note: Depending on what and where I read, including many Jewish sources, their treatment during this long time span varied greatly. Like, those newspaper articles sounded much more alarmist than most of the history sources I was reading. Some complicated stuff, for sho.

Emil El Zapato
7th November 2017, 15:32
and certain large pockets not liking to assimilate into typical Western society.

Sorry Fred, this is a misapprehension. Assimilation takes generations and everyone eventually succumbs. To-date the longest holdouts have been the Jewish enclaves but even they have given up the ghost (The religiously oriented would state that holding out is akin to God's miracle).

Those south of the border criminals that just won't learn English will in fact by the 3rd generation be UNABLE to speak Spanish. Though, admittedly my 1st generation grandparents lived in the United States for over 75 years without ever learning to properly speak English. My dad, was fluent in both without accent in either. Me...I have plenty of problems with English without worrying about Spanish and my daughter is becoming fluent in Mandarin Chinese. Go figure!

Misperceptions are literally killing us...Not to go off topic!


Just to add: some sociologists suggest 'that immigrants that learn their adopted country's language earliest do it for a manner of preserving their culture. It effectively builds a wall around them where in the privacy of their own homes they can be what they wish to be...separate and different.

Octopus Garden
7th November 2017, 17:37
Fred,

Tarka seems to have a pretty good grasp of history. The whole issue with persecution of the Jews, where some are earnest and honest, like yourself, is really difficult. Those who are rightfully annoyed, furious even, with the current Israeli govt, aren't satisfied with limiting their criticism to current times, they have to jump into the way back machine of revisionist bigotry. This machine sees the persecution of the Jews as being arranged by themselves somehow and casts them in the role of conspiracists going back generations.

I can't speak to what is currently going on, but will offer this. Any group that is persecuted learns tough lessons in religious and cultural survival. There is a LOT of nepotism in the Jewish community that looks like conspiracy but isn't. There is also a virtual blackout of criticism of Israel by the mainstream media. This IS conspiratorial, but it also makes a certain amount of sense. Jewish people DO control the media and they have a pro Isreal bias.

I am going to amend this. Pro-Israel people control the msm, through ownership of media outlets. And this is the MSM, not necessarily other forms of media.

Is it a conspiracy of control? It seems like it. Is that the intent? I would say that, censorship of criticism of Israel, in the media, began as a reaction to the real threat of anti-semitism, post war. It set a precedent and wasn't changed to allow for the fact that Israel became an oppressive force, through the radical group who has seized control of their government.

Fred Steeves
7th November 2017, 18:50
Well here's the thing. I'm not out to blame the condition of this world on the Jews, or any one particular group for that matter, my sights are set much higher than that. I do have some concerns and some questions however about a certain small segment of that society, and I don't think they are at all unfounded.

You mention control over media as a problem, is control over banking and finance a problem as well? Like say the Warburgs, Schiffs or Rothchilds, are these types of old banking families a problem as well?

Octopus Garden
7th November 2017, 21:42
Fred, My concerns mirror your own. A tiny money worshipping group camouflaged within a religious ethnic minority IS a HUGE problem. I wrote my last post very quickly before I ran errands without editing. I didn't mean to suggest YOU are a bigot -- and there is nothing wrong with asking honest questions.

I have a problem with those who blame everything up to and including the common cold on "the Jews." I don't think you are part of that group.

Fred Steeves
7th November 2017, 22:18
Fred, My concerns mirror your own. A tiny money worshipping group camouflaged within a religious ethnic minority IS a HUGE problem. I wrote my last post very quickly before I ran errands without editing. I didn't mean to suggest YOU are a bigot -- and there is nothing wrong with asking honest questions.

I have a problem with those who blame everything up to and including the common cold on "the Jews." I don't think you are part of that group.

I know you didn't mean that dear lady, no worries :)

This particular conversation is fraught with perils, real or perceived it doesn't matter. I wonder why that is?

And that, is my last public question concerning this matter..

enjoy being
7th November 2017, 23:03
It is interesting in the latest article published by Ronan Farrow regards Harvey Weiner.
It outlines how even just a rich movie producer can hire the right people to influence the news and silence others.
It shows that there are facilities and companies out there that offer a service that can effectively distort reality and report different histories.

Dreamtimer
7th November 2017, 23:06
Congressman Anthony Weiner sent the dick pics.:belief: Harvey Weinstein was doing his thing in Hollywood.:vom:

enjoy being
7th November 2017, 23:14
Bugger, I was just taking the mickey out of his name, didn't mean to confuse it with Tony Wanger.

Is that a Jewish name or a German name?

Actually, it might have been easyish for Weinstein to access such services, but his comparable fame was his downfall.Perhaps. And human nature to boast maybe have been the other contributor... In that some of the documents incriminating HW in hiring surveillance and espionage companies, was that the employees of companies used his name directly instead of calling him 'the end client' or such.
I speculate that this was from him being famous and these employees not being able to help themselves in using his name.. perhaps.

So my point is that when it comes to influencing history or the media or statistics, HW may have failed, but it may well just be because he is a public figure, I would suppose that someone who is also very rich, and perhaps more powerful, but comparatively unknown in the public eye, would perhaps more easily get away with associating with such agencies and endeavours.

Fred Steeves
7th November 2017, 23:17
It shows that there are facilities and companies out there that offer a service that can effectively distort reality and report different histories.

Some easily accessible to even you and me, if the price is right of course. Like taking candy from a baby if one is so inclined.
http://www.crowdsforrent.com/services.html

pointessa
8th November 2017, 12:09
I know you didn't mean that dear lady, no worries :)

This particular conversation is fraught with perils, real or perceived it doesn't matter. I wonder why that is?

And that, is my last public question concerning this matter..


The programming we receive, whether we reject it or not is very real and I can feel exactly what you are talking about. Fred, thank you for your research !

Emil El Zapato
8th November 2017, 12:21
I can only answer for me, Fred...

It's because people that deny the Holocaust, are the same people as the KKK, white supremacists, domestic terrorists, foreign terrorists, the Taliban, ISIS, nationalists... The list is long. They represent everything that is destroying our societies. They are desperately evil and they have an agenda that is devil spawned.

And rightfully so, most sane cultures are ashamed of at least some aspects of their history and don't wish to see it relitigated for all to see.

tarka the duck
10th November 2017, 13:36
Source?

The Holocaust Chronicles
http://www.holocaustchronicle.org


At the suggestion of our friend Tarka The Duck, I spent this morning's research time looking into the history of Jews in Russia, the history of Zionism and such....

.... One more thing of note: Depending on what and where I read, including many Jewish sources, their treatment during this long time span varied greatly. Like, those newspaper articles sounded much more alarmist than most of the history sources I was reading. Some complicated stuff, for sho.

It’s great that you took the time to do that, Fred :smiley hug:- as you’ve discovered, it’s an incredibly complex story of an area with an incredibly turbulent history.


The two main things that caught my eye seems to be that they didn't like to assimilate into typical Russian society, and the Russians had a big problem with the Talmud.

I suspect that lack of assimilation was more a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other …

It can’t have been easy to assimilate into a society that, at various times:

• permitted you to live only in a ghetto - a particular, designated area (the Pale) - unless you converted to the Orthodox church
• banned you from many jobs and professions
• issued racist laws against you (the May laws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Laws )
• carried out pogroms against you
• imposed a Jewish quota whereby only 10% of any school or college in the Pale could be Jewish (and 2% in the big cities)
• imposed quota only allowed 5% of doctors in the military to be Jewish
• criminalised Jews who adopted Christian names to blend in: they were forced by law to use their birth name.
• prevented you from holding deeds to property

Not exactly welcoming, I’m sure you’d agree.


I don't know anything about how the Russians regarded the Talmud - any more info? Are you talking about Czarist Russia or post-Revolution?

tarka the duck
10th November 2017, 13:41
One more thing of note: Depending on what and where I read, including many Jewish sources, their treatment during this long time span varied greatly. Like, those newspaper articles sounded much more alarmist than most of the history sources I was reading. Some complicated stuff, for sho.

You’ve made an old woman very happy.

Dreamtimer
10th November 2017, 13:46
Jews debate a lot amongst themselves. I've heard different individuals speak of doing business with jews before other people. I don't think this is terribly uncommon for people of various tribes to have that sort of attitude.

I learned some things from my Orthodox friend that I don't personally embrace, but for her, it's in the Torah. Gentiles have a secondary place in heaven, Jews get the best place. My friend had her gentile housemate act as her servant during a party with guests because that was her "sacred role".

My friend is very nice to me and she does need help because there are restrictions on doing work on Saturday and all kinds of additional restrictions during Holy Days. She offers to do mitzvahs for me and I'm pretty sure that's because she then feels she can ask me to work for her.

I can do such things for the sake of my own values but I will never be a servant nor will I ever have any kind of secondary place in heaven. And perhaps it's not really heaven if that's what the deity commands.

Emil El Zapato
10th November 2017, 13:52
Jews debate a lot amongst themselves. I've heard different individuals speak of doing business with jews before other people. I don't think this is terribly uncommon for people of various tribes to have that sort of attitude.

I learned some things from my Orthodox friend that I don't personally embrace, but for her, it's in the Torah. Gentiles have a secondary place in heaven, Jews get the best place. My friend had her gentile housemate act as her servant during a party with guests because that was her "sacred role".

My friend is very nice to me and she does need help because there are restrictions on doing work on Saturday and all kinds of additional restrictions during Holy Days. She offers to do mitzvahs for me and I'm pretty sure that's because she then feels she can ask me to work for her.

I can do such things for the sake of my own values but I will never be a servant nor will I ever have any kind of secondary place in heaven. And perhaps it's not really heaven if that's what the deity commands.

Hi Dreamtimer, I agree and believe it is a reflection of the levels of 'social consciousness' that were in play at the time of the original transcripts. We simply have to forego those because they are flatly inappropriate and I think 'God' would agree. In my estimation this is where biblical texts (and it applies to all religious philosophies) get fuzzy. What is true revelation and what is misinterpreted by homo sapiens sapiens.

tarka the duck
10th November 2017, 13:52
Jewish people DO control the media and they have a pro Isreal bias.

As I’m sure you’d expect (I’m nothing if not predictable), I would disagree with that statement. It could be straight out of the Protocols
or the Ford’s Dearborn Independent, or a speech by Hitler.


Here’s why I take issue with such a claim:

The mere fact that there are large numbers of individuals who are Jewish (practising or otherwise) in the media does not mean that
they “control” these areas.
“Control” means there is a deliberate intention to exert influence behaviour and events.
It’s synonymous with nefarious activity, and suggests a desire for personal gain.

Just as there may appear to be a ‘disproportionate’ number of Jews in professions such as law, media, finance, medicine, engineering,
education, science etc, there are many perfectly plausible, logical reasons for that fact. We do not have resort to paranoia, or succumb
to bigoted propaganda to explain it.

If there are a lot of Jews in a given profession, and a person finds that problematic, it can only be for one of two reasons:

• first, if one already believes that Jews are inherently given to abusing power (and are implementing their evil plan).
• second, if those Jews reached their positions by way of injustice, having received unfair privileges relative to non-Jews.

I wonder - does that person have the same worries over the fact that, for example, the tech world is dominated in the US by Asian Americans?
Or that 36% of Hindus earn more than $100,000 per annum?
How about the fact that 98% of early years educators in the UK are female?
Or that 80% of CEOs in the US are white?
Or that well over 90% of skilled construction workers in the US are white?

Is that person horrified by the activities of the myriad of all-powerful, white Christian-dominated industries - such as tobacco for instance?
Are the hundreds of thousands of nicotine-related illnesses and deaths proof of white Christian malfeasance
(especially as we know that tobacco companies have withheld information on the cancerous properties of their products)?

I won’t bother going through all the major media players who are not Jewish. My point is that it’s just so lazy to parrot that “It’s the Jews”.

The corporate world, including the media, is a multilayered, convoluted network of companies and individuals. Their owners - Jewish or otherwise -
are not free to act in a vacuum: these companies are publicly traded, multinational corporations who are answerable to banks, shareholders,
insurance companies and other investors – and also to advertisers, who are almost always their main source of revenue.

Corporate capitalism runs the show with no concern for any race or faith or for anything except profits.


Oh, and BTW - the Jewish people are not a homogenous mass. To talk about ‘the Jews’ en masse as being in control of the media is meaningless.
As they say, “two Jews, three opinions” :lol:

Emil El Zapato
10th November 2017, 13:57
As I’m sure you’d expect (I’m nothing if not predictable), I would disagree with that statement. It could be straight out of the Protocols
or the Ford’s Dearborn Independent, or a speech by Hitler.


Here’s why I take issue with such a claim:

The mere fact that there are large numbers of individuals who are Jewish (practising or otherwise) in the media does not mean that
they “control” these areas.
“Control” means there is a deliberate intention to exert influence behaviour and events.
It’s synonymous with nefarious activity, and suggests a desire for personal gain.

Just as there may appear to be a ‘disproportionate’ number of Jews in professions such as law, media, finance, medicine, engineering,
education, science etc, there are many perfectly plausible, logical reasons for that fact. We do not have resort to paranoia, or succumb
to bigoted propaganda to explain it.

If there are a lot of Jews in a given profession, and a person finds that problematic, it can only be for one of two reasons:

• first, if one already believes that Jews are inherently given to abusing power (and are implementing their evil plan).
• second, if those Jews reached their positions by way of injustice, having received unfair privileges relative to non-Jews.

I wonder - does that person have the same worries over the fact that, for example, the tech world is dominated in the US by Asian Americans?
Or that 36% of Hindus earn more than $100,000 per annum?
How about the fact that 98% of early years educators in the UK are female?
Or that 80% of CEOs in the US are white?
Or that well over 90% of skilled construction workers in the US are white?

Is that person horrified by the activities of the myriad of all-powerful, white Christian-dominated industries - such as tobacco for instance?
Are the hundreds of thousands of nicotine-related illnesses and deaths proof of white Christian malfeasance
(especially as we know that tobacco companies have withheld information on the cancerous properties of their products)?

I won’t bother going through all the major media players who are not Jewish. My point is that it’s just so lazy to parrot that “It’s the Jews”.

The corporate world, including the media, is a multilayered, convoluted network of companies and individuals. Their owners - Jewish or otherwise -
are not free to act in a vacuum: these companies are publicly traded, multinational corporations who are answerable to banks, shareholders,
insurance companies and other investors – and also to advertisers, who are almost always their main source of revenue.

Corporate capitalism runs the show with no concern for any race or faith or for anything except profits.


Oh, and BTW - the Jewish people are not a homogenous mass. To talk about ‘the Jews’ en masse is meaningless. As they say, “two Jews, three opinions” :lol:

Good points...I for one have had my battles competing against Asians, but do I hold that against them. Of course not, I'll pit my strengths against all comers - :) and if i'm bested well, that's their mistake ... :)

My central tenet has always been that if an ethnic or racial group is 'conspired against' , for example, the Jews spending 40 years in a desert, it will distill the survival characteristics of that group. Those that conspire will suffer the fruits of their labor. We see it happening every day and in every way.

Fred Steeves
11th November 2017, 11:15
The two main things that caught my eye seems to be that they didn't like to assimilate into typical Russian society, and the Russians had a big problem with the Talmud.


I suspect that lack of assimilation was more a case of six of one and half a dozen of the other …

It can’t have been easy to assimilate into a society that, at various times:

• permitted you to live only in a ghetto - a particular, designated area (the Pale) - unless you converted to the Orthodox church
• banned you from many jobs and professions
• issued racist laws against you (the May laws - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Laws )

• carried out pogroms against you
• imposed a Jewish quota whereby only 10% of any school or college in the Pale could be Jewish (and 2% in the big cities)
• imposed quota only allowed 5% of doctors in the military to be Jewish
• criminalised Jews who adopted Christian names to blend in: they were forced by law to use their birth name.
• prevented you from holding deeds to property

Not exactly welcoming, I’m sure you’d agree.

Well now here's the thing, I don't think it's quite as simple as that. I'm sure we've all known that person who seems to run into trouble wherever they go because they keep running into the wrong person who does them dirt. After a while the question must be raised: Are this person's fortunes really that downright unfortunate, or might it be something they are doing that keeps pi**ing people off wherever they go?

Why do Jews seem to get a bad wrap wherever they go throughout history? Two main factors emerge: In Christian nations (including Tsarist Russia) they are seen as the Christ killers, and in general seen as overly opportunistic in business and especially finance.

In Russia they were apparently seen as both, thus a group to be taken with great caution.

https://books.google.com/books?id=KgJtcvs7ObAC&pg=PT326&lpg=PT326&dq=why+were+jews+not+welcome+in+czarist+russia+com merce&source=bl&ots=fhsDMEqmqR&sig=NEgEu4TOZEV2UJEa0PSlrIaa01Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCweTTpbbXAhWH4IMKHR03B-IQ6AEIYDAJ#v=onepage&q=why%20were%20jews%20not%20welcome%20in%20czarist %20russia%20commerce&f=false

The family history of Paul Warburg, one of the founders of the U.S. Federal Reserve, is a good example on the finance aspect:


They originated as the Venetian Jewish del Banco family, one of the wealthiest Venetian families in the early 16th century.[2] Following restrictions imposed on banking and the Jewish community, they fled to Bologna, and thence to Warburg, in Germany, in the 16th century, after which they took their name.

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Warburg%20family

First off, their original name was del Banco, can you stand it? LOL

Anyway, they fled??? Even in this friendly article it says they had to flee Venice. If you research that any deeper, you see the del Banco/Warburg family was forced to flee the country, because of ahum, basically predatory banking practices.

This is basically what happened with the Knights Templar in France as well a couple hundred years earlier, see the pattern? Venice and France were not just being anti Semitic, there was more to it than that.

Knights Templar origin:


the knights who banded together as the Knights Templar were part of a wave of European royalty descended from Jewish Elders that had fled the Holy Land around 70 AD, when it was invaded by the Romans.
http://www.ancient-origins.net/history/origin-knights-templar-descendants-jewish-elders-005078

This seems to be an age old problem, and unfortunately your average Jew has to pay a price for this reputation. So again, this is not about yours or mine Jewish friend or neighbor, let's make that explicitly clear!

So did Russia, along with many other nations over time, commit some terrible atrocities against these people? It certainly appears so, and I make no excuses for it. On the flip side however, this didn't occur just out of the blue either, because some of the men folk wore funny little hats and had long beards or whatever. Things don't happen in a vacuum.


I don't know anything about how the Russians regarded the Talmud - any more info? Are you talking about Czarist Russia or post-Revolution?

The following quote from a Jewish historic website mentions it:


In the 1840s, a network of special schools was created for the Jews since they had not availed themselves of the opportunity established in 1804 to study in the regular schools. These schools were paid for by a special tax imposed on the Jews. In 1844, a decree was established that the teachers would be both Christians and Jews. The Jewish community viewed the government’s attempt to set up these schools as a way of secularizing and assimilating the younger generation. Their fears were not unfounded as the decree to require Christian teachers was accompanied by the declaration that "the purpose of the education of the Jews is to bring them nearer to the Christians and to uproot their harmful beliefs which are influenced by the Talmud."


As they say, “two Jews, three opinions”

That's pretty good, never heard that one! I'm glad to see a little humor sprinkled in, a conversation such as this doesn't necessarily have to go to the steady dour drumbeat of a Siberian Death March :) I've always liked comedians that allow us all to laugh at each other's idiosyncrasies; we all have them, from the individual, on up to our home nation.


I learned some things from my Orthodox friend that I don't personally embrace, but for her, it's in the Torah. Gentiles have a secondary place in heaven, Jews get the best place. My friend had her gentile housemate act as her servant during a party with guests because that was her "sacred role".

I can see where "Gentiles" (geez is that term still used!!??) might not appreciate that too much. Personally I wouldn't give a crap, but a lot of people, especially strict and uptight Christians, probably would. That would take us straight back to Tsarist Russia again.

Emil El Zapato
11th November 2017, 12:37
We could just as easily blame those damn Italianos:

"Many histories position the crucial historical development of a banking system to medieval and Renaissance Italy and particularly the affluent cities of Florence, Venice and Genoa. The Bardi and Peruzzi Families dominated banking in 14th century Florence, establishing branches in many other parts of Europe. The most famous Italian bank was the Medici bank, established by Giovanni Medici in 1397. The oldest bank still in existence is Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena, headquartered in Siena, Italy, which has been operating continuously since 1472."

- wiki -

The old saw still applies that says: "People are like dogs, some you can beat into submission, others just get meaner!"

By the time we get to 17th century Italy, the jews have dealt with 2,000 years of abuse.

Octopus Garden
11th November 2017, 18:28
Tarka,
I am hardly anti-Jewish. However, when it comes to mainstream media, I have friends and family who have worked in MSM and who all say the same thing. You cannot criticize Israel's role in Palestine in anything you write. Why is this? I don't think 'corporatism' covers it. I DO think a pro Israeli bias covers it. And the owners of said media are Jewish people who happen to be hard core Zionists.

I understand all the points you are making and agree with you on all of them, with this exception. If you have a hard time believing me ask someone who was previously employed by mainstream media.

I want to add something important here. I am talking about owners of the media outlets and their control of content. There are many Jewish reporters and journos both here and in Israel who would love to have their viewpoints, critical of Israel, clearly and widely expressed. This is certain. Perhaps Jewish control of media was the wrong way to express this. I don't know.

Dreamtimer
11th November 2017, 18:55
We could just as easily blame those damn Italianos:

"Many histories position the crucial historical development of a banking system to medieval and Renaissance Italy and particularly the affluent cities of Florence, Venice and Genoa. The Bardi and Peruzzi Families dominated banking in 14th century Florence, establishing branches in many other parts of Europe. The most famous Italian bank was the Medici bank, established by Giovanni Medici in 1397. The oldest bank still in existence is Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena, headquartered in Siena, Italy, which has been operating continuously since 1472."

- wiki -

The old saw still applies that says: "People are like dogs, some you can beat into submission, others just get meaner!"

By the time we get to 17th century Italy, the jews have dealt with 2,000 years of abuse.

This is one of the things Joseph Farrell has written about a lot. Going back to the bankers in Venice.

Octopus Garden
11th November 2017, 19:07
Dreamtimer,

Exactly. They have been a convenient whipping boy and easy scapegoats. And now, we are all, including most Jewish people, in the very uncomfortable position of having to get a handle on the small cabals of radicals, in all faith, political and economic systems, who use the larger group as camouflage to work their own agendas.

I am thinking of Benjamin Netanyahoo and those of his kind that are motivated by power and money and use the justifiable fear of some in Israel to gain advantage.

Emil El Zapato
11th November 2017, 19:55
Tarka,
I am hardly anti-Jewish. However, when it comes to mainstream media, I have friends and family who have worked in MSM and who all say the same thing. You cannot criticize Israel's role in Palestine in anything you write. Why is this? I don't think 'corporatism' covers it. I DO think a pro Israeli bias covers it. And the owners of said media are Jewish people who happen to be hard core Zionists.

I understand all the points you are making and agree with you on all of them, with this exception. If you have a hard time believing me ask someone who was previously employed by mainstream media.

I want to add something important here. I am talking about owners of the media outlets and their control of content. There are many Jewish reporters and journos both here and in Israel who would love to have their viewpoints, critical of Israel, clearly and widely expressed. This is certain. Perhaps Jewish control of media was the wrong way to express this. I don't know.

I don't know if this sheds light on any one's worldview but this I know. In the U.S. we had a President for 8 years that tried exactly that. To set aright the realities in the Middle East, specifically regarding the Israelis and Palestinians. He was metaphorically bombarded with stones from the right. It's a very straightforward and transparent truth.

Octopus Garden
11th November 2017, 21:54
Netanyahoo hated Obama for distancing the U.S. from Israel and attempting to normalize relations with Iran by establishing the nuclear deal. As much as I loathe what has occurred in Libya and Syria, under Obama and through Hillary Clinton, this one move WAS a step in the right direction. Look at what has happened since then.

tarka the duck
18th November 2017, 13:29
I've enjoyed reading all the contributions to this thread since I was last here (and all the drama regarding Asger :p).



Tarka,
I am hardly anti-Jewish. However, when it comes to mainstream media, I have friends and family who have worked in MSM and who all say the same thing. You cannot criticize Israel's role in Palestine in anything you write. Why is this? I don't think 'corporatism' covers it. I DO think a pro Israeli bias covers it. And the owners of said media are Jewish people who happen to be hard core Zionists.

I understand all the points you are making and agree with you on all of them, with this exception. If you have a hard time believing me ask someone who was previously employed by mainstream media.

I want to add something important here. I am talking about owners of the media outlets and their control of content. There are many Jewish reporters and journos both here and in Israel who would love to have their viewpoints, critical of Israel, clearly and widely expressed. This is certain. Perhaps Jewish control of media was the wrong way to express this. I don't know.


Hi OG

When you say ‘the Jews control the media’, who are referring to? Those who have names that could sound Jewish?
Those who were born into a Jewish family? Those who converted to Judaism? Those who practise Judaism? And are
they Orthodox? Reform? Conservative? Many individual Jews who are in positions of authority are anti-Israel
and critical of Jewish values - and many others simply don’t care about these issues.

When you state ‘the media’, are you, in fact, referring to the media in the US and Canada?

I’m assuming so, because pro-Israel bias in the media may be fairly clear to see in North America,
where groups such as AIPAC can be effective in influencing a number of decision-making processes -
as are hundreds of other advocacy groups such as tobacco companies. This not the case in the UK and other
European countries - and there are thousands of media outlets around the world that positively hate
the Jewish people and the country of Israel. Much of the Israeli press is highly critical of their own government’s
actions and policies.

How does that fit in with the trope that 'the Jews control the media'?

To attribute US bias in support Israel to a cabal of Jews who are supposed to ‘control the media’ is to promulgate a pernicious lie that
has been used by the Jew haters for centuries, and has led to horrific acts fuelled by hatred. Stereotypical thinking often evolves into
more dangerous problems — prejudice, bigotry, scapegoating, defamation, discrimination, racism, and hate crimes. Myths such as Jewish
control of the media plays right into the hands of the likes of David Duke, William Pierce, Nick Griffin, laRouche, Franco, Hitler …

The fact that many successful, high-profile people in the media business identify with being Jewish - while holding widely differing opinions
and perspectives - is not proof of some secret Jewish conspiracy to rule the world. Jews have made an mark in virtually every field -
mathematics, publishing, science, psychiatry, law, music, medicine, economics, human rights campaigning, engineering .... Why not the media?
Is there a reason why Jewish people shouldn’t be involved - and succeed in - the media?

Many of the big media companies in the US were originally set up by Jews for very clear, historical reasons. Nearly all of them have since been
sold to publicly-traded organisations. Are they still considered to be ‘Jewish-owned’? Look down the list of the 30 most powerful media companies
in the world to see that, statistically, “Jews” do not control “the media”
http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-30-biggest-media-owners-in-the-world-2016-5

Consider these two statements:

“The Jews control the media.”
“There are powerful and influential people in the media who identify with being Jewish.”

There is a world of difference between the two.

tarka the duck
18th November 2017, 13:50
Well now here's the thing, I don't think it's quite as simple as that. I'm sure we've all known that person who seems to run into trouble wherever they go because they keep running into the wrong person who does them dirt. After a while the question must be raised: Are this person's fortunes really that downright unfortunate, or might it be something they are doing that keeps pi**ing people off wherever they go?

...this didn't occur just out of the blue either, because some of the men folk wore funny little hats and had long beards or whatever. Things don't happen in a vacuum.

I’m sure you don’t intend this, but you’re veering into victim blaming here, Fred. It sounds as if
you’re saying that the Jewish people ‘brought it on themselves”.

If you look into the history of Jewish assimilation into Christian society, you’ll see that, no matter
what the Jewish people did - whether they kept their heads down so as not to cause trouble,
or whether they tried to integrate as far as they were permitted - when times got tough, they were blamed.

There was a repeating pattern of expulsion and invitation throughout Europe in the Middle Ages. When times
were good and nations benefited from the present of Jews because they needed to avail themselves of the
services they offered, Jews were encouraged to stay. When times were hard, they were first in line to be
persecuted and excluded. There are countless examples of this throughout history: as an example -

Jews had been expelled from France in 1182 (and on several more occasions throughout the 13th Century).
In 14th century France, Jews were more accepted in society: they were under royal protection, and some became
tax collectors for the king - but this role was gradually taken over by powerful Italian bankers. Then, when King Philip
needed money for his wars, and as Jews were now superfluous, he confiscated the possessions of 100,000 Jews
(they were, by law, his chattels to do with as he wished), imprisoned them and sentenced them to exile.

The truth is that Jews were damned if they did integrate, and damned if they didn’t.
If they integrated, they were accused of trying to infiltrate and pollute the pure blood of the nationalists.
If they kept to themselves, they were the objects of suspicion and rumour that often led to violence.

No one deserves to be treated as subhuman, as I'm sure you'd agree. Persecutors choose to do what they do,
and they bear the full responsibility.




The family history of Paul Warburg, one of the founders of the U.S. Federal Reserve, is a good example on the finance aspect:
https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Warburg%20family

Anyway, they fled??? Even in this friendly article it says they had to flee Venice.

Nope. That article states that they left “Following restrictions imposed on banking and the Jewish community …”

Wiki says “In 1513, del Banco was granted a charter by the Venetian government permitting the lending of money with interest.
Del Banco left with his family after new restrictions were placed upon the Jewish community coinciding with the establishment of a Ghetto.”

It seems that they chose not to live in a city that legalised persecution of Jews, isolating them by banishing them to a ghetto
where they were locked in at night, and had to wear distinguishing clothing, such as a yellow circle or scarf if they went into the city.
Wouldn't you have fled such a restriction on your life?

Also, in the 1500s, Venetian banking laws reduced bank interest rates which made life difficult for the pawnbrokers and moneylenders -
maybe that’s another reason why they left.



If you research that any deeper, you see the del Banco/Warburg family was forced to flee the country, because of ahum, basically predatory banking practices.

Do you have a reference for your claim that they had to flee because they were financial predators?
Banking in post Renaissance Italy was tightly regulated by the hugely powerful Italian banking families.
Why are you so suspicious of the del Banco family?

Octopus Garden
18th November 2017, 16:02
Tarka, Pro-Zionist bias, largely due to Aipac's lobby and controlling interests in mainstream media, (in North America) have utterly distorted the coverage of wars in the Middle East. There has also been an absence of mainstream coverage on the role of Saudi Arabia, another American and Israeli ally.

I would be interested to know if a newspaper of note, like the Guardian, covers the input both of these countries have on the Middle East.

Do a quick Wikipedia search for Izzy Asper and his prior ownership of 80% of Canadian print media. I believe Canwest is a private corporation, but not completely sure. Do a Tyee times search of same name and you will understand where I am coming from.

The strong affiliation for and empathy with Israel was formed post war when Israel was a true underdog, in an extreme way. Nobody could possibly argue that point. However, the perpetual victim status has given Israel a blank cheque, in modern times, to wield way more power than it should.

No country, regardless of its past, should be able to weild its history as a sort of fetish doll to ward off condemnation of reprehensible acts.

Emil El Zapato
18th November 2017, 20:02
"There was a repeating pattern of expulsion and invitation throughout Europe in the Middle Ages. When times
were good and nations benefited from the present of Jews because they needed to avail themselves of the
services they offered, Jews were encouraged to stay. When times were hard, they were first in line to be
persecuted and excluded. There are countless examples of this throughout history"

I didn't realize this was a repeating pattern for ethnic groups beyond the Jewish. How quickly the elements of exploitation forget their history. Another pattern that repeats, people spout all the negatives and then forget why they exist in the 1st place. People are there own worst enemies but completely incapable of accepting the responsibility.

Holy Moly are you on target:

"The truth is that Jews were damned if they did integrate, and damned if they didn’t. "

There it is in all its glory...The classic double-bind imposed by the authoritarian personality.

NAP

Emil El Zapato
18th November 2017, 20:08
Tarka, Pro-Zionist bias, largely due to Aipac's lobby and controlling interests in mainstream media, (in North America) have utterly distorted the coverage of wars in the Middle East. There has also been an absence of mainstream coverage on the role of Saudi Arabia, another American and Israeli ally.

I would be interested to know if a newspaper of note, like the Guardian, covers the input both of these countries have on the Middle East.

Do a quick Wikipedia search for Izzy Asper and his prior ownership of 80% of Canadian print media. I believe Canwest is a private corporation, but not completely sure. Do a Tyee times search of same name and you will understand where I am coming from.

The strong affiliation for and empathy with Israel was formed post war when Israel was a true underdog, in an extreme way. Nobody could possibly argue that point. However, the perpetual victim status has given Israel a blank cheque, in modern times, to wield way more power than it should.

No country, regardless of its past, should be able to weild its history as a sort of fetish doll to ward off condemnation of reprehensible acts.

We could blame the Jewish owned media but I would blame the main assh*le. Isn't Rupert Murdoch identified as Jewish...he's about as Jewish as Sammy Davis Jr. was!

Wind
18th November 2017, 21:27
Generalization in this regard is so simple and yet so stupid.

Octopus Garden
18th November 2017, 22:20
It is very difficult to discuss this sensitive topic with those who don't have first hand experience with what I am sadly, very familiar with. The U.S (and Canada, by proxy) angled themselves towards Israel, post war for geo-strategic reasons and oil. The mainstream media have gone along with the program, as they usually do.

The lobbying efforts of AIPAC and other groups served to shore up this support for Israel, to the point where ALL criticism of its behavior was/is considered verboten in the msm.

Do I think Murdoch is pro-Israel? No, I think he is pro- Murdoch and happens to be ethnically Jewish which has no bearing on anything. But...he is happy to play along with the msm zeitgeist. Are there others like him? Yes, probably -- so their ethnicity doesn't necessarily matter. In the case of Izzy Asper, in Canada it is/was a whole different matter.

So, out of curiosity, what exactly would you call it when you have a disproportionate number of secular Jewish people, engaged in garden variety nepotism and a certain amount of exclusivity who are participating in an industry that goes along with a government that will not criticize Israel.

I will grant you this, Tarka, using Fox News and Murdoch as an example--- it may not be a conspiracy, in the purest sense, but to many who don't understand all of its twists and turns, and intentions, it can look like one.

Read carefully what I am writing here and please control the impulse to characterize me as a bigot. I am not.

Fred Steeves
18th November 2017, 23:29
Well now here's the thing, I don't think it's quite as simple as that. I'm sure we've all known that person who seems to run into trouble wherever they go because they keep running into the wrong person who does them dirt. After a while the question must be raised: Are this person's fortunes really that downright unfortunate, or might it be something they are doing that keeps pi**ing people off wherever they go?



I’m sure you don’t intend this, but you’re veering into victim blaming here, Fred. It sounds as if
you’re saying that the Jewish people ‘brought it on themselves”.

Once again, not the people, the banking/money lending elite that hitches a ride within the Jewish people. Not the same thing, at all. Think the money changers that the Master Yeshua supposedly drove out of the temple for ripping off the average Joe at a sacred place, the first known act of what was to later become known as anti Semitism?


There was a repeating pattern of expulsion and invitation throughout Europe in the Middle Ages. When times were good and nations benefited from the present of Jews because they needed to avail themselves of the
services they offered, Jews were encouraged to stay. When times were hard, they were first in line to be
persecuted and excluded. There are countless examples of this throughout history:

Not just the Middle Ages. The more I look at this, the more the same old pattern continues. Kings need money to finance their wars, boost their economies, etc., so they cordially invite in and protect the Jewish money lenders. What seems to happen every time is that the debt becomes so insurmountable for the kings and even the lower classes, that the money lending core winds up being driven out. These were the "services" provided then, and they are the services offered now.

If one dares venture beyond Wiki type politically correct sources (and this doesn't equate to white supremacy type sources), a bigger picture begins to emerge that makes a hell of a lot more sense that just this particular people are consistently picked on for no apparent reason. Really???


Why are you so suspicious of the del Banco family?

Besides the del Bancos/Warburgs being an old banking family in bed with the likes of families like the Medicis? Being deeply invested in IG Farben, and being credited with instituting the US Federal Reserve debt system. Other than that, I love the Warburgs :) Ha Ha

Seriously now, this conversation is really beginning to bore me here. A lot of peoples across this planet have an awful lot to answer for, including yours and mine, too bad there is one people that dare not be questioned, or else...


The strong affiliation for and empathy with Israel was formed post war when Israel was a true underdog, in an extreme way. Nobody could possibly argue that point.


I'm not going to argue the point, only take it a wee bit deeper back into time.


On November 2, 1917, Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour writes a letter to Britain’s most illustrious Jewish citizen, Baron Lionel Walter Rothschild, expressing the British government’s support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/the-balfour-declaration

As an aside, I intend to delve into your Canadian media and such links tomorrow.

DMt.
19th November 2017, 23:29
Nobody seems to be acknowledging that this topic was started by a troll, or possibly troll team, with highly-destructive intent.

Even talking publicly about this issue carries severe legal penalties in many countries.

enjoy being
19th November 2017, 23:47
Nobody seems to be acknowledging that this topic was started by a troll, or possibly troll team, with highly-destructive intent.

Even talking publicly about this issue carries severe legal penalties in many countries.

I think that was discussed at the outset of the thread. Although I agree somewhat in what you are saying.
I personally have no problem with the subject in terms of the anomaly which is, the censorship of talking about, The censorship of talking about the topic regards the censorship of discussing the history of Jewish discrimination..
There are many nations whose people have been marginalised, over thrown, killed, and they are still allowed to talk about talking about the subject! It is that bit which I find quite funny really, well in a not so funny way.

Yes the origins of this thread is a bit naff. I haven't really been following it anyway as it really doesn't interest me that much, but I just presumed it was being recycled as a display of defiance against the original intent.
Maybe I am just a womble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQMMPFtoG4

Dreamtimer
20th November 2017, 11:19
We basically committed genocide here against the indigenous people. It's not illegal to talk about but if you start going around doing that you won't be met with friendly conversation. People don't want to talk about it or take responsibility for the current state of American Indians. It's a pretty sad state and most Americans are utterly disconnected.

I've been met with tribal attitudes from people of all shapes and sizes and colors. Weirdly, our racism and tribalism shows how similar we really are. We're all human.

It's the 'royal bloodlines' thing that hangs a lot of people up. My orthodox jewish friend has some 'royal bloodline' in her family which affects who her son can marry. And of course Corey Goode is now claiming to have 'holy bloodlines' in his family (same idea). We can see the asses that royalty, religious or monarchical, are around the world, no matter their color. They're asses. (not mules)

Jews tend to believe that they will be targeted when times become rough. Logically, it seems, they would ally with, do business with, form communities with other jews. Also, they have been shut out of many organizations and job opportunities and so they went where they could, i.e. entertainment industry.

The high school where my son went has about a 50% jewish student body and some very nice endowments from jewish families. Why is that? Because it was the only private school in Baltimore for decades that wouldn't discriminate against jews. And they showed their appreciation through their support.

It's a human thing.

pointessa
20th November 2017, 13:58
Nobody seems to be acknowledging that this topic was started by a troll, or possibly troll team, with highly-destructive intent.

Even talking publicly about this issue carries severe legal penalties in many countries.



It makes me wonder, with so many atrocities and episodes of genocide that have and are occurring at this very moment, why is this particular atrocity singled out for severe legal penalties for even talking about it?

tarka the duck
20th November 2017, 15:40
Even talking publicly about this issue carries severe legal penalties in many countries.

What are you referring to? :confused:


It makes me wonder, with so many atrocities and episodes of genocide that have and are occurring at this very moment, why is this particular atrocity singled out for severe legal penalties for even talking about it?


If you're referring to Holocaust denial - which we're not discussing on this thread - you've misinterpreted
laws that exist in a few European countries which experienced the Holocaust first hand.

I don't think the laws regarding genocide denial are the way to go: for me, the only way to combat such ignorance is to confront it.

But I understand why such laws exist, as part of broader legislation to combat hate speech. And it’s not to hide “the truth”.
Neither is it down to the influence of some shadowy Jewish all-powerful Protocols-of-the-Elders cabal.

If that was the case, Holocaust denial would be illegal in the US, in Canada, in Russia, in the UK etc because all of these countries have large Jewish populations.
And it would be legal in countries such as Lithuania, Poland and Romania where there are very small numbers of Jews (do you know why that is???).

Tell you what makes me wonder ... why people would choose to deny the suffering of fellow human beings.




I learned some things from my Orthodox friend that I don't personally embrace, but for her, it's in the Torah. Gentiles have a secondary place in heaven, Jews get the best place. My friend had her gentile housemate act as her servant during a party with guests because that was her "sacred role".

My friend is very nice to me and she does need help because there are restrictions on doing work on Saturday and all kinds of additional restrictions during Holy Days. She offers to do mitzvahs for me and I'm pretty sure that's because she then feels she can ask me to work for her.

I can do such things for the sake of my own values but I will never be a servant nor will I ever have any kind of secondary place in heaven. And perhaps it's not really heaven if that's what the deity commands.

Mmmm … without wanting to cast aspersions (or nasturtiums as my mum used to say), I think your friend could be telling porkies ;)

It’s well known that there is very little in the Torah about the afterlife - and certainly nothing about who gets “the best place”.
Judaism is very vague about what happens after death, but it’s definite on one thing: our fate is dictated by our actions, not our beliefs
(which is very different from the laws of Christianity and Islam). The ‘righteous’ deserve a place in heaven regardless of faith.

However, as I’m neither Jewish nor a student of the Torah, so if your friend makes such a claim, maybe you could ask them for the relevant verse.
If there is one, I’ll stand corrected.

tarka the duck
20th November 2017, 16:49
I would be interested to know if a newspaper of note, like the Guardian, covers the input both of these countries have on the Middle East.

The Guardian is free online: you can check for yourself. Another mainstream source you might find interesting is The Independent. There is also plenty of courage about how Israel is losing the propaganda war - which doesn’t support your assertions.



Do a quick Wikipedia search for Izzy Asper and his prior ownership of 80% of Canadian print media. I believe Canwest is a private corporation, but not completely sure. Do a Tyee times search of same name and you will understand where I am coming from.

I did - it seems Canwest went bankrupt in 2013. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canwest and Izzy Asper died in 2003. Or have I got the wrong person?


Powerful people have more money and influence than the powerless, and that tends to get them a better press.

Are we still so naive that we expect the media to be fair? There is bias and manipulation everywhere.




Generalization in this regard is so simple and yet so stupid.

Your words are so simple and yet so wise :tiphat:


We basically committed genocide here against the indigenous people. It's not illegal to talk about but if you start going around doing that you won't be met with friendly conversation. People don't want to talk about it or take responsibility for the current state of American Indians. It's a pretty sad state and most Americans are utterly disconnected.

I've been met with tribal attitudes from people of all shapes and sizes and colors. Weirdly, our racism and tribalism shows how similar we really are. We're all human.

It's the 'royal bloodlines' thing that hangs a lot of people up. My orthodox jewish friend has some 'royal bloodline' in her family which affects who her son can marry. And of course Corey Goode is now claiming to have 'holy bloodlines' in his family (same idea). We can see the asses that royalty, religious or monarchical, are around the world, no matter their color. They're asses. (not mules)

Jews tend to believe that they will be targeted when times become rough. Logically, it seems, they would ally with, do business with, form communities with other jews. Also, they have been shut out of many organizations and job opportunities and so they went where they could, i.e. entertainment industry.

The high school where my son went has about a 50% jewish student body and some very nice endowments from jewish families. Why is that? Because it was the only private school in Baltimore for decades that wouldn't discriminate against jews. And they showed their appreciation through their support.

It's a human thing.

What a great post :chrs:

tarka the duck
21st November 2017, 15:29
Not just the Middle Ages. The more I look at this, the more the same old pattern continues. Kings need money to finance their wars, boost their economies, etc., so they cordially invite in and protect the Jewish money lenders. What seems to happen every time is that the debt becomes so insurmountable for the kings and even the lower classes, that the money lending core winds up being driven out.

Again, Fred, you're putting your own spin onto things again.
Christian lenders charged interest. Muslim lenders charged interest. Jewish lenders charged interest.

Why are you so quick to assume that Jewish money lenders were ripping everyone off by charging exorbitant interest rates?
Why do you choose to let the monarchy and their acolytes off the hook by blaming Jews again?
Why do you ignore the extra heavy taxes charged to Jews in England by, for example, Edward I?
Why do you ignore the convert-to-our-religion-or-flee edicts in Spain and France?
Why do you ignore the fact that they were viewed as competitors by other parties in the finance business?

I am not saying that there wasn't excessive interest being charged by some money lenders - that would be naive.
But where is the evidence for your claim that they were repeatedly expelled for that reason?





If one dares venture beyond Wiki type politically correct sources (and this doesn't equate to white supremacy type sources), a bigger picture begins to emerge that makes a hell of a lot more sense that just this particular people are consistently picked on for no apparent reason. Really???

There are plenty of apparent reasons.

The origins and history of the poison that is anti Semitism has been analysed, discussed, investigated, dissected and scrutinised for years and years and years.
Your conclusion that it’s the fault of the victim is - without wishing to sound rude - facile. Try reading some of the in-depth work that’s out there to get a clearer picture
of what could actually be going on here.

You may have heard this old joke ...
At a Nazi rally in Nuremberg, where Hitler is screaming, “Who causes all of Germany’s problems?”
an old man in the crowd shouts back, “The cyclists!”
Hitler’s taken by surprise and asks, “Why the cyclists?” to which the old man replies, “Why the Jews?”

That was the 1930s — and we’re still asking the question in the 21st century.
As long as there are people keeping this hatred alive, it will remain alive.




Besides the del Bancos/Warburgs being an old banking family in bed with the likes of families like the Medicis?

Mmmm ... must have been a big bed. The Medici were the rulers of Tuscany and the Florence republic. The del Banco family lived in Venice.



Being deeply invested in IG Farben, and being credited with instituting the US Federal Reserve debt system. Other than that, I love the Warburgs :) Ha Ha

I thought we were talking about time the del Banco family fled Venice :confused: I asked you why you claimed that they fled the city because of dodgy business practices.
Still waiting for a reply on that ...



Seriously now, this conversation is really beginning to bore me here.

Really?? Why?
Don’t you find an open debate and free exchange of differing ideas presented in a polite and respectful manner to be of value?
Isn’t that part of what’s nifty about being human?

It’s particularly important to engage with those who hold different opinions, don’t you think?


too bad there is one people that dare not be questioned, or else...

Who’s that then? The white Protestants in the US?

I assume you’re talking about the Jewish people: if so, that is a straw man argument. Where is the evidence that some kind of gagging order is being enforced?

A quick search through even the mass media press - here in the UK at least - shows a healthy, broad spectrum of massively different opinions and beliefs voiced
in coherent debate, without any need to resort to insults or canards.

For example: since 2003, the UN has issued 232 resolutions with respect to Israel, 40% of all resolutions issued by the UN over the period and more than six times
that of the second placed country, Sudan.

How is that "not daring to question"? We are all free to question whomever we want - if we can summon up the interest. :eyebrows:

Dreamtimer
21st November 2017, 15:37
I didn't know the bit about the UN resolutions.

And what's behind all the negativity about the UN? I've heard fears about it somehow taking over the world, yet I can't see how.

tarka the duck
28th November 2017, 13:08
... because Hitler had a problem with Germany's Jewish bankers and newspaper owners (and to a lesser extent Jews in general)

Evidence actually shows that the reverse is true: Hitler had a problem with Jews in general, and used the myth of Jewish control to
stir up the populace and justify his scapegoating of the Jewish population. He channelled popular anxieties into political measures
that eradicated civil liberties and democracy, and told the crowds what they wanted to hear - and by repeating it without any proviso,
you’re implying it’s true.

Did Hitler only have ‘a problem’ with Jewish bankers and newspaper owners? No - he had a problem with all banks that were independent,
and all newspaper owners who spoke out against the NSDAP.

In the meantime, while spinning a web of lies and fallacies to direct attention away from his actions, Hitler maintained his hold on the
German people by exerting a stranglehold on the press: there were 4,700 newspapers in Germany when the Nazis took power.
By 1944, there were just over 1,000 left - and those that survived had to comply with prohibitive laws and only print in accordance
with the wishes of the Ministry of Propaganda.

We all know what the Third Reich did to anyone who dared to speak out against them - and that included the press, no matter who owned it.

Hitler claimed that Germans were being attacked by an international Jewish conspiracy that was taking control of their country. Sounds familiar?

Read his words about the Jews in Mein Kampf: he saw all the Jewish people as a disease, an impurity that would contaminate the ‘master race’,
along with many other groups of human beings: “The black-haired Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end, satanically glaring at and spying
on the unsuspicious girl whom he plans to seduce, adulterating her blood and removing her from the bosom of her own people. “

Listen to his speeches - such as this on 1st April 1939 in Wilhelmshaven:

"Only when this Jewish bacillus infecting the life of peoples has been removed can one hope to establish a co-operation amongst the nations
which shall be built up on a lasting understanding."

Read the pamphlet circulated by the Nazi party: The Jew as World Parasite
http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/weltparasit.htm

It’s clear that plans to implement the Final Solution went far beyond any alleged “problem with bankers and newspaper owners”.



If it was indeed the case, and Hitler only had ‘a problem’ with Jewish bankers and media owners, why, once the Nuremberg laws and
Aryanisation of Germany had been successfully implemented and Jews had been removed from “Aryan” society, their political, legal,
and civil rights successfully annhilated, wouldn’t his fight against the Jewish people have ended?

Why would the Nazi leaders then pledge to remove ALL Jews? Systematically. How many of the 6 million were "bankers and newspaper owners"?

Emil El Zapato
30th November 2017, 00:14
I had a thought, today...

Why it is illegal in some places to bash the 'Jews'. Because the people that tend to such activities in an organized fashion pose a threat to polite white culture. Inciting to riot could get some white folks hurt and when there is that potential mainstream culture will rush to act. Black and Hispanic gangs don't get much fuss because they are predominately just killing themselves, so who really cares! Now the white supremacist will not have that luxury!

NAP

tarka the duck
30th November 2017, 17:50
One more thing...

yg5RgI2GeKk


It makes me wonder, with so many atrocities and episodes of genocide that have and are occurring at this very moment, why is this particular atrocity singled out for severe legal penalties for even talking about it?

This is a fallacious argument on many levels.

Read the laws for yourself. Only then will you understand that they exist as part of wider laws that attempt to counter hate speech and action, incitement, discrimination and denial of crimes against humanity.

For example, Lithuania’s law is:
Publicly condoning international crimes, crimes of the USSR or Nazi Germany against the Republic of Lithuania and her inhabitants, denial or belittling of such crimes.

Switzerland’s law reads:
Whoever publicly, by word, writing, image, gesture, acts of violence or any other manner, demeans or discriminates against an individual or a group of individuals because of their race, their ethnicity or their religion in a way which undermines human dignity, or on those bases, denies, coarsely minimizes or seeks to justify a genocide or other crimes against humanity [...] shall be punished with up to three years' imprisonment or a fine.

There are no ‘severe legal penalties’ for ‘even talking about it’.

The map I've posted below shows clearly
a) that the countries with such laws are the countries that suffered under the Nazi regime and
b) that the vast majority of the world has no such restrictions.





And ‘this particular atrocity’ is not ‘singled out’:

There are laws against denial of the Armenian genocide in Switzerland, Greece, Cyprus and Slovakia - and Turkish lobby groups have been found to have exerted pressure - both financial and political - in the US to prevent that country from even using the word “genocide” to describe the massacre of Armenians in 1915.

There are law against denial of the Rwandan genocide of 800,000 Tutsi people in 1994.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/28/rwanda-justice-after-genocide-20-years

There are discussions run the former Communist countries of eastern Europe about introducing laws to prosecute those who deny crimes of Communism.
https://euobserver.com/social/31512

Following the conviction of Ratko Mladic, the “Butcher of Bosnia” for acts of genocide and crimes against humanity, similar laws against denial of genocide committed in Srebrenica are being passed.
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnian-genocide-denial-punishment-law-angers-serbs-06-14-2017/1422/4

And yet there are still those among the Bosnian Serb nationalists who deny it, in the face of physical evidence and eye witness testimony. They use the same old denial tactics:

• blaming the power and influence of the Muslim lobby
• stating the number is exaggerated by Muslims to garner sympathy
• claiming that ‘outsiders’ are stirring up trouble
• maintaining that the perpetrators were in fact the victims and were only defending themselves

… sounds familiar??



Do I think Murdoch is pro-Israel?

I would say he is definitely a supporter of Israel, from the bias his media outlets exhibits and from the sources who have presented him with awards .




… he happens to be ethnically Jewish which has no bearing on anything.

“ethnically Jewish?” :belief:

How do you know that Elizabeth Greene, his mother, was Jewish? Or are you saying that RM secretly converted to Judaism?

The only sources for that claim the usual suspects who deal in anti-Jewish, white Nationalist, Aryan Nation type material, such as VNN, Stormfront, Phora etc.



So, out of curiosity, what exactly would you call it when you have a disproportionate number of secular Jewish people, engaged in garden variety nepotism and a certain amount of exclusivity who are participating in an industry that goes along with a government that will not criticize Israel.


There’s so much wrong with that sentence that I can’t possibly begin to respond… :rolleyes:

Perhaps we should go back to the days of Jewish quota.
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/how-jewish-quotas-began/

Or maybe return to the days of resisting their attempts to enter professions such as banking, medicine, law etc?
Let the anti Semitism of the WASP elite continue to try and keep ‘them’ out of places where they could possibly wield any influence?

Are there any other voices you’d like to silence, or is it just the voice of Jews?

tarka the duck
30th November 2017, 18:31
1920

Fred Steeves
30th November 2017, 20:13
The lady doth protest too much, me thinks...

tarka the duck
30th November 2017, 20:56
The lady doth protest too much, me thinks...

Hi Fred - what makes you doubt my sincerity? :cry:

Fred Steeves
30th November 2017, 22:09
My apologies dear lady. :)

You are of course correct in taking it that way, but this definition is more in keeping with how it was meant:


As for the line you quoted, it’s from Hamlet and was originally “The lady doth protest too much” which just means “the lady does protest too much”. As other posters commented, it’s commonly used to describe a situation where someone is complaining so loudly about how much they dislike something that they give away the fact that they actually are enjoying that thing very much.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-thou-doth-protest-too-much-mean

I think this particular subject has become a cause for you, and any time radar picks up the slightest deviation from the drumbeat of mainline history, it's like a fireman off to put out the next fire. Fireman love what they do.

tarka the duck
4th December 2017, 12:17
My apologies dear lady. :)

You are of course correct in taking it that way, but this definition is more in keeping with how it was meant:
https://www.quora.com/What-does-thou-doth-protest-too-much-mean

Thank you for your apology and clarification, kind sir :smiley hug:



I think this particular subject has become a cause for you

Absolutely right - thanks for noticing, Fred. :D To paraphrase Martin Luther King: Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

This thread is not about me, however, and my motivations not relevant to the subject under discussion (although I’d be happy to discuss this elsewhere).



So back to the topic in hand: it seems the Christian Orthodox church is up to its old tricks again. Divide and conquer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/28/russian-orthodox-church-suggests-tsars-death-jewish-ritual-murder/

Octopus Garden
10th December 2017, 18:00
Discussions are great. When discussions deteriorate into debates with one person positioning themselves as the moral arbiter and ultimate authority...not so good.

I asked Tarka how she(or he?) would describe an MSM combination of ethnic or ethnic religious nepotism organized under the greater rubric of a pro-Israeli American super power. This was an honest question. I used the word, 'conspiracy' because I don't know what else to call it.

I don't appreciate my questions being insulted, diminished, or equated with something fit for Stormfront. I admit though, that what is happening in North America, msm wise, shouldn't be generalized to the entire globe.

tarka the duck
14th December 2017, 13:22
I don't appreciate my questions being insulted, diminished...

Hello OG.

I was genuinely taken aback when I read your post just now. It was never my intention to insult or demean anyone:
you stated your opinions and I disagreed with some of them, and explained - politely, I thought - why I saw things differently.
I was about to write a sincere apology as you seem upset, but checking back on my posts to you, I genuinely can’t see where
I’ve been either rude or insulting, so I’m wondering why you feel attacked.

I know my tone can sound a little … pompous and annoying … but my writing style isn’t the subject of this thread and to discuss
that would be a deflection (aha, could that be your cunning plan? :eyebrows: )


or equated with something fit for Stormfront.

But your claim that Rupert Murdoch is Jewish is straight from Stormfront. The first hit on Google is David Irving’s blog and the second is Stormfront.
Jewwatch, VNN and Shoah also featured on the first page.



I asked Tarka how she(or he?) ... Definitely a she ... why would you doubt it?!

...would describe an MSM combination of ethnic or ethnic religious nepotism organized under the greater rubric of a pro-Israeli American super power.

The preoccupation with ethnicity rings alarm bells for me. I see things as being much more nuanced and complex than your words
here suggest you do.

As example, the pro-Israel stance of the US media and the US government may be connected, but whereas you attribute that to
a shadowy group of Jews, I would look to the huge influence of other sources of power.

How can you discount the military/industrial complex, the tech lobbies, the intelligence community and the evangelical Christians who
support Israel devotedly and have been a hugely politicised and powerful group since the 1960s - which, co-incidentally, is exactly
when the US started to befriend Israel.

Not to forget the fact that America’s support of Israel is a reflection of its exceptionalism and a belief that it has a mission in the world.
It is motivated by self interest.



what exactly would you call it when you have a disproportionate number of secular Jewish people, engaged in garden variety nepotism and a certain amount of exclusivity who are participating in an industry that goes along with a government that will not criticize Israel.

Are you conflating being Jewish with being pro-Israel? :shocked:

You maintain that there is a disproportionate number of Jews participate in the media. Do you have a reliable figure for how many
Jewish people actually work in the media? And how do you judge it to be ‘disproportionate’ when you consider modifying factors
such as the fact that the majority of Jews in the US live in urban areas, and are employed in white collar occupations?

I’m confident that whatever the figure is, Jews are still in the minority - by a long way - which means that the majority of people
working in ‘the media’ do not identify as being Jewish.

Are you equally worried about the influence of all the Christians who work in the media? If not, why not?

What would I call nepotism and exclusivity? I'd call it the way of the world which is, sadly, utterly tribal, and promotes cronyism
and self-interest.

And it exists in all walks of life, throughout the world. Not merely amongst one ethnic group.


I really do hope that my tone hasn't upset you, and that you can respond to my thoughts.

Maggie
14th December 2017, 19:01
What would I call nepotism and exclusivity? I'd call it the way of the world which is, sadly, utterly tribal, and promotes cronyism
and self-interest.

And it exists in all walks of life, throughout the world. Not merely amongst one ethnic group.

YES! I think your posts are exceptionally intelligent and patient. The information is soothing because it is reason based. Your sources are made explicit. I cannot really comprehend the
perennially embedded hysteria over "we must designate our enemy" and next step "we must never suffer the witch to live". It's in the fabric of social contexts.

IMO the enemy is always our own proclivities such as preference for those we designate as "our kind" and repulsion towards "strangers".

IMO the holders of those views resemble the behavior of my chickens. The flightless featherless chicken flock mentality seeks to reproduce exclusively its own "kind" and the cock is all about the F's.

Octopus Garden
3rd August 2020, 18:35
https://www.haaretz.com/promotions-page?htm_source=site&htm_medium=top_ruler&htm_campaign=understand_mideast&htm_campaign_type=purchase&htm_content=1_usd

I am resurrecting this thread due to recent events that shed light on what I was originally trying to explain to Tarka. The media in Canada will not touch the issue of Palestine. That may be loosening up a bit...but historically, not a word. And from well informed sources within the MSM, people who are columnists with major papers, I have first hand accounts that if you want to keep your job, you don't "go there."

This doesn't mean all 'Jews" are part of a conspiracy. It also doesn't mean that the 'Jewish Conspiracy' can hold a candle to the Anglo American lock on power, British Colonialism, etc...

The difficulty lies in self censorship of media and overt control, (in some instances,) by a hard core Jewish lobby. When you can't criticize a group's behavior you offer them way too much moral latitude. They can act with impunity. Witness the Gaza strip and Israeli government crimes in that area.

Somehow the issue of "Never criticize Israel" has to be reconciled with reality. Realistically I don't blame the media or even the hard right Jewish lobby whose clarion call of "Never Again," is grounded in legitimate fear. Who can blame them? See below.

[I]New York Times to Cease Political Cartoons After 'anti-Semitic' Depiction of Netanyahu

The Times issued an apology in April for the "anti-Semitic cartoon," and called its publication "an error in judgement." It also dropped the syndication service that provided the illustration.

https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/new-york-times-to-drop-political-cartoons-after-anti-semitic-depiction-of-netanyahu-1.7358019

And another significant find:

The debate over the influence of pro-Israel groups could be informed by an investigation by Al Jazeera, in which an undercover reporter infiltrated the Israel Project, a Washington-based group, and secretly recorded conversations about political strategy and influence over a six-month period in 2016. That investigation, however, was never aired by the network — suppressed by pressure from the pro-Israel lobby.

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/11/ilhan-omar-israel-lobby-documentary/

It's not my wish to become the anti-Jewish face of this forum, for two reasons...I am not anti-Jewish. Secondly, this forum could attract an unsavory bunch of neo-Nazis, if it gives this issue too much attention. However, what is interesting is a large proportion of Neo Nazis appear to be pro Trump and anti-black now. So more, KKK than neo-Nazi, I guess.

Wind
3rd August 2020, 18:55
It's very convenient for the government of Israel to always use the anti-semitism card.

Also it seems that it's really hard to get rid of the corrupt Netanyahu (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/02/thousands-demonstrate-against-netanyahu-as-israel-protests-gain-strength).

Octopus Garden
3rd August 2020, 19:13
Yes Wind, and it matters so much now. It can't be allowed to proceed. The largely unpopular govt of Netanyahooo has forged alliances with the hard right in the U.S, and perhaps globally. I don't think Netanyahoo is motivated by fear as much as greed...but I do have a great deal of sympathy for those who are living in a constant state of fear and anxiety, due to the past.

The Iranian nuclear deal being scuttled is dangerous for us all. Ironically, it might be most dangerous for Israelis. No wonder so many of them want Netanyahu gone.

Octopus Garden
3rd August 2020, 19:18
And more.....

Among other measures, it downgrades Arabic from being an official language and encourages settlement expansion in the occupied West Bank, and has been met with fierce protests.

The cartoon was published on Tuesday in the Jerusalem Report, a biweekly magazine supplement of the Jerusalem Post. Katz also posted his work to his personal Facebook page, describing the new law as “shameful”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-post-israel-orwell-cartoon-nation-state-law-a8464391.html

Octopus Garden
3rd August 2020, 19:32
Another cartoonist bites the dust. Steve Bell, cartoonist of 40 years standing.

Steve Bell has admonished the newspaper for rejecting his cartoons:

Last July, Mr Bell attacked his editors’ refusal to run a cartoon featuring Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Labour deputy leader Tom Watson , suggesting it is due to “some mysterious editorial line” about antisemitism.

https://www.dailycartoonist.com/index.php/2020/07/17/the-guardian-wont-renew-steve-bell-contract/

Dreamtimer
4th August 2020, 13:30
The anti-semite card can be used like the anti-racist card.

I had a student back in the day who would slack off on his work and try to cheat and if you called him out on it he'd call you racist. It's tough to deal with but I did't let him intimidate me (nor did the librarian) because if you give that stuff an inch, miles will be taken.

Israel is bringing itself problems (sooner or later) with its treatment of the Palestinians. I don't understand why it continues. I feel like people are being very short-sighted as well as cruel to the Palestinians. It's bad karma.

Especially from a people who themselves were so abused.

Dreamtimer
4th August 2020, 13:48
People are protesting Netanyahu.


Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets outside Benjamin Netanyahu’s house over the weekend in what appeared to be the largest protest to date calling for the embattled Israeli prime minister to resign.

Rallies on Saturday night and into the early hours of Sunday morning were held in Jerusalem, home to the official residence of the 70-year-old leader, as well as his beach house in central Israel, near Tel Aviv, and at dozens of road intersections across the country.

Throughout the summer, Israelis have packed roads and squares calling for Netanyahu to resign, protesting against his government’s handling of the country’s coronavirus crisis and charges of alleged corruption.



T'ruah: The Rabbinic Call for Human Rights
@truahrabbis

Israelis are standing up against Netanyahu’s illiberal government by the thousands. We love to see it.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eee9yPuXkAcdWnQ?format=jpg&name=medium