Chaos and the Anti-Thread [Archive] - Page 4

Chris

5th October 2018, 15:55

Sigh... I hate to bang on about this, but I wish people wouldn't confuse socialism and social democracy. They are in fact almost the exact opposites of each other. Look, it's simple.

- Hitler - national socialist
- Mao - socialist
- Stalin - socialist
- Fidel Castro - socialist
- Pol Pot - socialist
- Kim Jon Il, Un and Kim Ir Sen - socialist
Number of victims: Hundreds of Millions

- all the social democracies in Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc... - not socialist.
Number of victims: practically none

I get it that people like Bill Maher and Bernie Sanders want to make socialism cool again, thinking that Social Democracies are socialist, but they couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the Prime Minister of Denmark took exception to Bernie Sanders calling his country socialist and strongly rebuked him. Believe me, if Denmark was socialist, it would look more like North Korea or Venezuela and wouldn't be as prosperous and happy as it is. Social Democracy is the best form of government we currently know of. Socialism (whether in its national or international iterations) is the worst.

This whole confusion actually reminds me of those very irresponsible and deeply biased British politicians and journalists who compare the European Union to the Soviet Union, or even worse, refer to it as the Fourth Reich. They completely miss the point that the EU's role is to create more freedom, not less, by applying the principles of its four freedoms (freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital) within all EU and EEA (Norway, Iceland and Switzerland) member states. That enhanced freedom, which has created much prosperity across the continent is what Britain is turning its back on with Brexit. Don't even get me started on Brexit as I have been agonising about that clusterfuck for weeks now and who knows what's going to happen, but the whole thing is deeply sad and will be hugely damaging to the UK and Ireland, two countries I love deeply and consider my second home.

Fred Steeves

5th October 2018, 16:27

Aragorn

5th October 2018, 17:25

Sigh... I hate to bang on about this, but I wish people wouldn't confuse socialism and social democracy. They are in fact almost the exact opposites of each other. Look, it's simple.

Did you watch the video, Chris? It addresses many examples of historic socialism that were not social democracies.

Hitler - national socialist

I'm sorry, Chris, but national-socialism — note the hyphen, because it's important — was not, is not, and never will be socialism, regardless of how many times you are going to keep on repeating your claim that it would be.

National-socialism was a form of fascism, initially inspired by Benito Mussolini's fascism in Italy and (to a limited extent also) by Francisco Franco's fascism in Spain, and it was sold to the public as "a different kind of socialism" — which it wasn't — so as to allow Hitler and his NSDAP to seize control of Germany's resources.

I've already explained all of this to you, and I've even explained to you that the SS wasn't even an official military but a private militia. The existence of a private organization — not to mention a heavily armed and legally approved militia — is directly juxtaposed to the very principles of socialism. Even Mussolini himself initially claimed that he was a socialist, even though his regime had nothing to do with socialism either. It was merely a populist slogan.

It was also only later that Hitler started blending ethnic purification into his agenda — it had already been part of the plan all along, but Hitler needed to win the confidence of the German public first before going ahead with the next step, and then finally with the military expansion of his fascist empire. Which is exactly what it was: a fascist empire.

- Mao - socialist
- Stalin - socialist
- Fidel Castro - socialist
- Pol Pot - socialist
- Kim Jon Il, Un and Kim Ir Sen - socialist
Number of victims: Hundreds of Millions

I'm sorry, but those are all proto-socialist regimes, not actual socialist societies. You are merely parroting an age-old knee-jerk and you are throwing populist labels around without understanding why those labels don't even apply to the regimes you are listing.

Just because someone proclaims themselves to be a socialist doesn't mean that they are.

Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky were both the ideological descendents of Vladimir Lenin, but Trotsky was more moderate than Stalin. He was then forced to leave the country in exile, and then Stalin had him murdered in Mexico.

Fidel Castro initially had the right idea, but he was a man with great flaws, and then he teamed up with Ernesto "Che" Guevara, who had just as many flaws and was also just as fanatic. They were willing to shed blood — lots of it — to further their ideals, not even realizing that their actions and their ideals were diametrically opposed. They liberated Cuba from the CIA-backed fascist dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista and his death squads, but what they put in place wasn't all that much better. And like so many other proto-socialist revolutionaries, Fidel just didn't know where to take it from there, leaving Cuba stuck in the 1950s.

Pol Pot and the various Kims of North Korea were/are madmen — literally. They've taken communism to such an extreme that it isn't even communism anymore. So don't go and call it that. It's a military dictatorship, and it's even worse than the Soviet Union ever was, or than the People's Republic of China is today.

This whole confusion actually reminds me of those very irresponsible and deeply biased British politicians and journalists who compare the European Union to the Soviet Union, or even worse, refer to it as the Fourth Reich. They completely miss the point that the EU's role is to create more freedom, not less, by applying the principles of its four freedoms (freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital) within all EU and EEA (Norway, Iceland and Switzerland) member states.

I guess you must be living in an entirely different European Union then from the one I'm living in, because the only ones who are actually enjoying more freedom are the corporations, and even more specifically, the bankers. For the rest of us mere mortals, the European Union has been doing nothing but restrict our freedom — and a little bit more so with every passing day.

What the European Union is, is an oligarchic bureaucracy of overpaid and incredibly wasteful career politicians who are first and foremost serving themselves, and who are knowingly or unknowingly serving the IMF second. And I hope you realize full-well what the IMF is.

That enhanced freedom, which has created much prosperity across the continent is what Britain is turning its back on with Brexit. Don't even get me started on Brexit as I have been agonising about that clusterfuck for weeks now and who knows what's going to happen, but the whole thing is deeply sad and will be hugely damaging to the UK and Ireland, two countries I love deeply and consider my second home.

Brexit is a whole different matter. The United Kingdom had never sincerely been part of the European Union. It only paid half of the contributions to the EU per capita that the other EU member states are paying, and it also never adopted the Euro as its currency. But when it came to policy-making, oh yes, then the British government was all in on the game. It was a dishonest deal from the get-go.

Of course, the reasons why the UK left the EU are convoluted and based upon manipulation of the British public opinion by Britain's far right. Much of Nigel Farage's criticism of the European Union was certainly legitimate, but he was being a hypocrite. As an ultra-nationalist, Farage had his own reasons for wanting out of the EU, and so he conned the British people into voting for Brexit. And now that the British government has a conservative and moderately nationalist prime minister, it wants to be consequential with the decision made, even though many people in the UK are now having second thoughts about Brexit.

For the European Union itself, Brexit is a welcome form of entertainment. They are hoping to humiliate and pester the UK with sanctions and all kinds of bureaucratic measures once Brexit will have been completed, so as to make an example out of the UK that there's a price to pay for leaving the club.

Dreamtimer

5th October 2018, 19:17

The wings are deflating. The Independents are not a third block. They are people who are sick of the two wings. Last time I checked, people still matter.

Fred Steeves

5th October 2018, 22:32

The wings are deflating. The Independents are not a third block. They are people who are sick of the two wings.

I'm sorry DT, but the numbers and the polling data categories simply do not support these strong assertions. They may have grumblings about their party of choice, which is why it's liberating to call themselves Independents, but when the game is on the line they tend to come flocking home in droves.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/05/5-facts-about-americas-political-independents/

There IS a small percentage that will truly go either way, and this time they were the ones who gave us the Republican.

Young progressives are calling establishment Democrats "The Assistance". How astute.

They are the New Wave.

Now then, have you forgotten that just a few days ago, it was the young Progressives who were riding in to save the day? Progressives are hard Left in this country, just as Conservatives are hard Right. Now it's the people who are (supposedly) sick of BOTH wings riding in to save the day. Which is it?

Last time I checked, people still matter.

That's not very nice. I hope you aren't insinuating I've ever said anything to the contrary.

Emil El Zapato

6th October 2018, 00:15

Oh look! There's a third side (in America) which is increasing in numbers. Oh wait, it's not a side. It's a bunch of people of all stripes. Of course.

https://i2.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/20180621_Party_ID_Gallup1.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1

For the most part independents (I have always believed) are conservatives that are afraid to just admit it or they are totally disgusted with what they know is the nature of the 'Republican' party, yet, they have the same urges and drives as any authoritarian. Case in point...I work in a very authoritarian environment currently, one of the managers is black and calls himself an 'independent'. When I called him on it he admitted that he leans right....No real surprise to me...

I'm sorry DT, but the numbers and the polling data categories simply do not support these strong assertions. They may have grumblings about their party of choice, which is why it's liberating to call themselves Independents, but when the game is on the line they tend to come flocking home in droves.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/05/5-facts-about-americas-political-independents/

There IS a small percentage that will truly go either way, and this time they were the ones who gave us the Republican.

Now then, have you forgotten that just a few days ago, it was the young Progressives who were riding in to save the day? Progressives are hard Left in this country, just as Conservatives are hard Right. Now it's the people who are (supposedly) sick of BOTH wings riding in to save the day. Which is it?

That's not very nice. I hope you aren't insinuating I've ever said anything to the contrary.

many more Obama voters went right with Trump...A very much smaller pct of Romney voters went left to scurry away from Trump.

It's neither Fred...and I'm betting DT knows it...she was just trying to be polite... :)

Emil El Zapato

6th October 2018, 01:55

Sigh... I hate to bang on about this, but I wish people wouldn't confuse socialism and social democracy. They are in fact almost the exact opposites of each other. Look, it's simple.

- Hitler - national socialist
- Mao - socialist
- Stalin - socialist
- Fidel Castro - socialist
- Pol Pot - socialist
- Kim Jon Il, Un and Kim Ir Sen - socialist
Number of victims: Hundreds of Millions

- all the social democracies in Europe, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc... - not socialist.
Number of victims: practically none

I get it that people like Bill Maher and Bernie Sanders want to make socialism cool again, thinking that Social Democracies are socialist, but they couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the Prime Minister of Denmark took exception to Bernie Sanders calling his country socialist and strongly rebuked him. Believe me, if Denmark was socialist, it would look more like North Korea or Venezuela and wouldn't be as prosperous and happy as it is. Social Democracy is the best form of government we currently know of. Socialism (whether in its national or international iterations) is the worst.

This whole confusion actually reminds me of those very irresponsible and deeply biased British politicians and journalists who compare the European Union to the Soviet Union, or even worse, refer to it as the Fourth Reich. They completely miss the point that the EU's role is to create more freedom, not less, by applying the principles of its four freedoms (freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital) within all EU and EEA (Norway, Iceland and Switzerland) member states. That enhanced freedom, which has created much prosperity across the continent is what Britain is turning its back on with Brexit. Don't even get me started on Brexit as I have been agonising about that clusterfuck for weeks now and who knows what's going to happen, but the whole thing is deeply sad and will be hugely damaging to the UK and Ireland, two countries I love deeply and consider my second home.

I don't think Bernie Sanders confuses socialism with social democracy/social welfare states

Fred Steeves

6th October 2018, 02:46

For the most part independents (I have always believed) are conservatives that are afraid to just admit it or they are totally disgusted with what they know is the nature of the 'Republican' party, yet, they have the same urges and drives as any authoritarian.

Your "beliefs" are hereby acknowledged, but same as in religious beliefs, they do not match evidence on the ground.

Emil El Zapato

6th October 2018, 11:39

Your "beliefs" are hereby acknowledged, but same as in religious beliefs, they do not match evidence on the ground.

well, here's one I might almost agree with you...my 'perception' seems to be on shaky ground but I'm going with it anyway... :)

Dreamtimer

6th October 2018, 13:32

I wasn't implying anything directly towards you, Fred.

It's a point that needs to be made on a regular basis because people can't get out from under the labels and the team mentality.

As I've said ad nauseum, we're all human, in this country we're all American, and divided we will fall.

It's not time for Civil War or Revolution or KWP or any of the rest. It's time to unite again before we get boofed by the rest of the world.

I have yet to say that anyone is going to ride in to save the day. I've never had a savior mentality. Why is that so hard to understand?

No one group is going to save anyone. That's why it's so ridiculous to hang the labels and be tribal. We have to save ourselves by working together, period.

I don't walk away in a huff when I get told I'm brainwashed, I keep on trying. Some people will never listen but some will and that's what matters. Some will come out of their tribal delusions and begin to work towards something better for everyone.

As far as the youth go, the Young Republicans were very active and made a big difference. That's just one example. I wish they hadn't ended up being so tribal. My parents were inclusive and open-minded and were not happy with the direction their 'team' went in.

Today's youth aren't young Republicans. They probably would have been had that part of our system not gone so loony. So they're identifying as democratic socialists who still favor capitalism.

Considering they've all grown up in a capitalist system, what they will be is capitalists who actually care about our social programs and don't scapegoat them for military welfare (i.e. jobs programs for weapons the Pentagon doesn't want).

Chris

6th October 2018, 14:54

Did you watch the video, Chris? It addresses many examples of historic socialism that were not social democracies.

I'm sorry, Chris, but national-socialism — note the hyphen, because it's important — was not, is not, and never will be socialism, regardless of how many times you are going to keep on repeating your claim that it would be.

National-socialism was a form of fascism, initially inspired by Benito Mussolini's fascism in Italy and (to a limited extent also) by Francisco Franco's fascism in Spain, and it was sold to the public as "a different kind of socialism" — which it wasn't — so as to allow Hitler and his NSDAP to seize control of Germany's resources.

I've already explained all of this to you, and I've even explained to you that the SS wasn't even an official military but a private militia. The existence of a private organization — not to mention a heavily armed and legally approved militia — is directly juxtaposed to the very principles of socialism. Even Mussolini himself initially claimed that he was a socialist, even though his regime had nothing to do with socialism either. It was merely a populist slogan.

It was also only later that Hitler started blending ethnic purification into his agenda — it had already been part of the plan all along, but Hitler needed to win the confidence of the German public first before going ahead with the next step, and then finally with the military expansion of his fascist empire. Which is exactly what it was: a fascist empire.

I'm sorry, but those are all proto-socialist regimes, not actual socialist societies. You are merely parroting an age-old knee-jerk and you are throwing populist labels around without understanding why those labels don't even apply to the regimes you are listing.

Just because someone proclaims themselves to be a socialist doesn't mean that they are.

Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky were both the ideological descendents of Vladimir Lenin, but Trotsky was more moderate than Stalin. He was then forced to leave the country in exile, and then Stalin had him murdered in Mexico.

Fidel Castro initially had the right idea, but he was a man with great flaws, and then he teamed up with Ernesto "Che" Guevara, who had just as many flaws and was also just as fanatic. They were willing to shed blood — lots of it — to further their ideals, not even realizing that their actions and their ideals were diametrically opposed. They liberated Cuba from the CIA-backed fascist dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista and his death squads, but what they put in place wasn't all that much better. And like so many other proto-socialist revolutionaries, Fidel just didn't know where to take it from there, leaving Cuba stuck in the 1950s.

Pol Pot and the various Kims of North Korea were/are madmen — literally. They've taken communism to such an extreme that it isn't even communism anymore. So don't go and call it that. It's a military dictatorship, and it's even worse than the Soviet Union ever was, or than the People's Republic of China is today.

I don't entirely disagree with you, but I am talking from a Hungarian perspective here, where Fascism and Communism followed each other in quick succession and it was mostly the exact same people who were wearing the jackboots. What I am trying to express here is that in the big picture, when it comes to the extremes, the left and the right actually go full circle and become indistinguishable from each other in their totalitarianism. Most of us reject the notion that the far Left is somehow not as bad as the far Right, that the far Right is the expression of ultimate evil, whereas the far left is made up of well-meaning, but perhaps slightly misguided ideologues. Our experience tells us that both the far Left and far Right are equally misguided and frankly, evil. But I am starting to think that someone who has never lived under a far-left dictatorship will never really appreciate this.

I guess you must be living in an entirely different European Union then from the one I'm living in, because the only ones who are actually enjoying more freedom are the corporations, and even more specifically, the bankers. For the rest of us mere mortals, the European Union has been doing nothing but restrict our freedom — and a little bit more so with every passing day.

What the European Union is, is an oligarchic bureaucracy of overpaid and incredibly wasteful career politicians who are first and foremost serving themselves, and who are knowingly or unknowingly serving the IMF second. And I hope you realize full-well what the IMF is.

Apparently I do live in a different EU, because to the places I've lived in, Hungary, Poland, Ireland and London (which, let's face it, is pretty much a country to its own), the EU has been overwhelmingly positive, with only a few negatives I can think of. This would be a very long discussion that ties in with Brexit, but I do believe the EU has played a major role in keeping peace and prosperity on the continent and extending it to highly troubled places such as Ireland and Central Europe. The transformation of these countries since they joined the EU has been nothing short of astonishing. Perhaps the effect on Belgium was different, I don't know, because I've never lived there.

Brexit is a whole different matter. The United Kingdom had never sincerely been part of the European Union. It only paid half of the contributions to the EU per capita that the other EU member states are paying, and it also never adopted the Euro as its currency. But when it came to policy-making, oh yes, then the British government was all in on the game. It was a dishonest deal from the get-go.

Of course, the reasons why the UK left the EU are convoluted and based upon manipulation of the British public opinion by Britain's far right. Much of Nigel Farage's criticism of the European Union was certainly legitimate, but he was being a hypocrite. As an ultra-nationalist, Farage had his own reasons for wanting out of the EU, and so he conned the British people into voting for Brexit. And now that the British government has a conservative and moderately nationalist prime minister, it wants to be consequential with the decision made, even though many people in the UK are now having second thoughts about Brexit.

For the European Union itself, Brexit is a welcome form of entertainment. They are hoping to humiliate and pester the UK with sanctions and all kinds of bureaucratic measures once Brexit will have been completed, so as to make an example out of the UK that there's a price to pay for leaving the club.

I mostly agree, except for the last paragraph, I think it remains to be seen what form Brexit will take, I suspect it won't be as good, or as bad as either the Brexiteers or the Remainers think. It would be worth doing a separate thread on Brexit, but the subject is immensely boring and complicated, so I don't think most people would be interested. I have to keep myself informed on the subject because of my decade-long links to Ireland and the UK. Quite frankly, it is the utter disregard for the Irish question which troubles me the most, Brexiteers didn't give even one iota of thought to the people of Ireland despite the fact they will suffer the most from this.

Chris

6th October 2018, 15:01

I don't think Bernie Sanders confuses socialism with social democracy/social welfare states

This should clear it up:

The Author below is actually making the same points about the misuse of the word "socialism" that I was trying to make here, but to no awail. In my case, I fully like Bernie, I wish he was the US president right now. I only wish he stopped using the word socialism, as it really is a slur in this part of the world and highly inappropriate to use, except when describing countries such as North Korea and Venezuela.

"https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/denmark-tells-bernie-sanders-to-stop-calling-it-socialist/"

Denmark Tells Bernie Sanders It's Had Enough Of His 'Socialist' Slurs

The Danes apparently have grown weary of Sen. Bernie Sanders insulting their country. Denmark is not a socialist nation, says its prime minister. It has a "market economy."

Sanders, the Democratic presidential candidate who calls himself a socialist, has used Denmark as the example of the socialist utopia he wants to create in America. During the Democrats' first debate last month, he said "we should look to countries like Denmark, like Sweden and Norway, and learn from what they have accomplished for their working people."

While appearing in New Hampshire in September, Sanders said that he had "talked to a guy from Denmark" who told him that in Denmark, "it is very hard to become very, very rich, but it's pretty hard to be very, very poor."

"And that makes a lot of sense to me."

So because something makes sense to him, he has the right to force that system on people who don't want it? Isn't that what he's saying?

But we digress. This is about Danes being offending by Sanders using the word "socialist" to describe their form of government. And who can blame them, especially when the free world has had enough of national socialists and Soviet socialists and North Korean socialists and Cuban socialists?

While speaking at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, the center-right Danish Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen said he was aware "that some people in the U.S. associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism."

"Therefore," he said, "I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

Rasmussen acknowledged that "the Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens," but he also noted that it is "a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish."

To that we'll add that Sweden, another of Sanders' inspirations, has for decades quietly moved away from its cradle-to-grave form of government welfare. And the Swedes are better off for having done so, just as the Danes will continue to be better off as their government overhauls its welfare state.

If Sanders is going to continue to use these nations to guide his governing philosophy, he should base his policy positions on what they really are, not what he thinks they are or wants them to be. These countries have learned a harsh lesson. They don't deserve to be Berned again.

Aragorn

6th October 2018, 15:08

I don't entirely disagree with you, but I am talking from a Hungarian perspective here, where Fascism and Communism followed each other in quick succession and it was mostly the exact same people who were wearing the jackboots. What I am trying to express here is that in the big picture, when it comes to the extremes, the left and the right actually go full circle and become indistinguishable from each other in their totalitarianism. Most of us reject the notion that the far Left is somehow not as bad as the far Right, that the far Right is the expression of ultimate evil, whereas the far left is made up of well-meaning, but perhaps slightly misguided ideologues. Our experience tells us that both the far Left and far Right are equally misguided and frankly, evil. But I am starting to think that someone who has never lived under a far-left dictatorship will never really appreciate this.

Well, now we're getting to the core, and I've highlighted a few important things you say here. Indeed, when they go to the full extreme, they become neither left-wing nor right-wing, but merely totalitarian dictatorships. Because in the end, that's what the game was about all along: total control — the government holding the people hostage.

And yes, it's usually the very same people, wearing a different uniform/color, because those are the very people who seek to rule over others, regardless of what the political system calls itself.

Maggie

7th October 2018, 00:14

And yes, it's usually the very same people, wearing a different uniform/color, because those are the very people who seek to rule over others, regardless of what the political system calls itself.

yes, This is exactly what I think.
About the Kavnaugh issue, it is my opinion that for whatever reason, he enjoys being in the system that supports the people who will always be the rulers. looking at him snarl puckers my mouth. Hearing him evade direct answers makes my skin crawl.

I realize that the forums I have been looking in on for several years are a glimpse at the world and the view looks so different to me. PA has a thread bout Kavanaugh and I guess I must be a liberal because to me they all miss the point. Trump is part of the same elite system that rules us in EVERY which way it can.

Dreamtimer

7th October 2018, 13:04

You're right, Maggie. Kavanaugh is a Bush era swamp creature who was involved in the torture and other illegal stuff which is why so much of his record was hidden and the process was rushed.

There's no swamp draining going on. Not at all.

Fred Steeves

7th October 2018, 13:58

About the Kavnaugh issue, it is my opinion that for whatever reason, he enjoys being in the system that supports the people who will always be the rulers. looking at him snarl puckers my mouth.

Maggie, you may as well have read my mind on everything you said here!

He's a system guy through and through, from rich spoiled frat boy, to hobnobbing around the world on Air Force 1 with Bush Jr., to supporting things like The Patriot Act, illegal detention as in Gitmo, torture, and NSA domestic spying. Nothing to see here folks, business as usual move along.

looking at him snarl puckers my mouth.

The first time I saw him, there was something I just didn't like about him. I kept telling my wife honey, there's something wrong with that guy, I don't like him. That was before I knew anything about him what so ever.

Hearing him evade direct answers makes my skin crawl.

It wasn't just you. I'll tell ya what the longer that hearing went on, the more it got to the point like if I hear you answer one more question about your drinking with "I finished first in my class" and yada yada yada, I'm ready to reach my hand through that tv screen and slap you silly...

Now those Democratic Senators circling around like a pack of hyenas made/make my skin crawl as well, same as the Republican who will defend him to the death no matter what, and also the doxing and stalking of public officials that's now all the rage, that's for a different post. But like I've been saying this country is starting to come across at the seams, and I'm certain it's Genesis is artificial.

I realize that the forums I have been looking in on for several years are a glimpse at the world and the view looks so different to me. PA has a thread bout Kavanaugh and I guess I must be a liberal because to me they all miss the point. Trump is part of the same elite system that rules us in EVERY which way it can.

Well then first off I guess I must be a Liberal too, except these are not true Liberals on display in any sense of the traditional meaning of the term.

The Project membership sure have taken a hard Right turn, haven't they? It's hard to watch. There are a couple with their heads screwed on straight, but that's about it. Whatever happened to distrust and scrutiny of pretty much ALL politicians and public officials? Suddenly we can trust our government, after 242 years? Really??? :fpalm:

Emil El Zapato

7th October 2018, 14:21

Maggie, you may as well have read my mind on everything you said here!

He's a system guy through and through, from rich spoiled frat boy, to hobnobbing around the world on Air Force 1 with Bush Jr., to supporting things like The Patriot Act, illegal detention as in Gitmo, torture, and NSA domestic spying. Nothing to see here folks, business as usual move along.

The first time I saw him, there was something I just didn't like about him. I kept telling my wife honey, there's something wrong with that guy, I don't like him. That was before I knew anything about him what so ever.

It wasn't just you. I'll tell ya what the longer that hearing went on, the more it got to the point like if I hear you answer one more question about your drinking with "I finished first in my class" and yada yada yada, I'm ready to reach my hand through that tv screen and slap you silly...

Now those Democratic Senators circling around like a pack of hyenas made/make my skin crawl as well, same as the Republican who will defend him to the death no matter what, and also the doxing and stalking of public officials that's now all the rage, that's for a different post. But like I've been saying this country is starting to come across at the seams, and I'm certain it's Genesis is artificial.

Well then first off I guess I must be a Liberal too, except these are not true Liberals on display in any sense of the traditional meaning of the term.

The Project membership sure have taken a hard Right turn, haven't they? It's hard to watch. There are a couple with their heads screwed on straight, but that's about it. Whatever happened to distrust and scrutiny of pretty much ALL politicians and public officials? Suddenly we can trust our government, after 242 years? Really??? :fpalm:

Here's the thing...With Kavanaugh it is apparent that nothing is good about our current situation. What happened and how it happened is obvious...someone came forward accusing Kavanaugh of misbehavor. The Dems knew all hell would break loose if they brought it forward. Feinstein tried to honor Ford's request to not go public and Feinstein complied until it was obvious nothing else was going to stop the confirmation. So all hell broke loose.

Kavanaugh cried and cited his distress about the effect on his children. This is central... The impetus for Kavanaugh's distress was not compassion or empathy, it was guilt. His children were noted to have said they should 'pray for the lady that accused their father'. That kind of compassion in young children is not normal. The accusation against their father verified for them what they already knew. They know that their drunk of a father is a deeply flawed parent who has visited much pain on them in his selfish drunkeness. But Repubs got the new pinnacle of American justice that they coveted.

Not liberal, just indicative of where we are as a nation. People are very ugly. The farther right, the uglier.

Maggie

7th October 2018, 18:05

The farther right, the uglier.

I am not sure about that because the labels are artificial.
To me, the ugliness comes from the same ignorant place left, right or center.

The statue of liberty carries the (mythical) words which i always thought beautiful.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! "

Then I read about what actually happened when people arrived and many were parked in the ghettos of NYC.
Then I realized more and more about the REAL workings of Immigration which reveals ultimately that migration of people disrupts civilization.
That keeps the populous from ever making any generational headway.
That suits those PERPETUAL rulers who see us all as the ants in the hill needing a kick IMO.
UGLY UGLY UGLY IMO.

The history record show how a layering of social hierarchy depends on no political party.
If we had no need for rulership, there would be no rule.
But we have the case where there is always some PROBLEM to need a ruling.
Taxation seems logical to deal with infrastructure but it never goes there.
What is also a bit ugly is our sense of victimization.
SURE we are challenged but we do not own our inner power. We are always afraid of the hoards said to be outside the gates.

The cronies and the serfs and the wage slaves and the actually seriously disenfranchised are what underly politics (which is supposed to be the management of daily life in cities).

The cut throat evil of scrambling for the reins of power is what most people think will make some difference despite its ugliness. The probability that anyone who gets up the ladder has done a black-mail-able act or two means the "leaders" are rotten before they start.

IMO I have no "plan" for a "better world" but the UGLINESS is because we created a sick and death agreeable culture that is not about enjoying wisdom and beauty.

Maggie

7th October 2018, 19:18

The Project membership sure have taken a hard Right turn, haven't they? It's hard to watch. There are a couple with their heads screwed on straight, but that's about it.

Have to say that Dennis penned a strong short statement that resounds because the supreme court appointment lasts while prez comes and prez goes. The GANG of gangs rules.

'I'm curious if there is anyone who objectively researched this person and who would say, this is a good person to have as a Supreme Court justice, for life - the closest thing to a monarch in the USA government.

Did you want him because the democrats didn't?

Did you want him because you assume the groping/attempted rape accusation was fabricated, so, you see the the appointment more as a reward for withstanding false accusations?

Did you want him in spite of, or because of, his association with george w bush and 9/11?

Did you want him in spite of, or because of, his support for the "patriot act"?

I grew up in the USA, INC. I am well aware of the hyperbolic rift between the only two political gangs, and that once a person chooses one of these gangs, then everything the other gang does is wrong and everything your own gang does is correct. I realize that this is the simple reality for the vast majority of US citizens. I don't know if it is also true of Avalon members that have been fully exposed to the duopoly gambit.

Is there anyone here that objectively examined brett kavanaugh and said to themselves, "Now that person should be appointed to the Supreme Court for the rest of his life, to be at the highest level of interpreting the US Constitution!"'http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104440-Kavanaugh-Hearings-a-National-Disgrace&p=1252848&viewfull=1#post1252848

Emil El Zapato

7th October 2018, 19:54

I am not sure about that because the labels are artificial.
To me, the ugliness comes from the same ignorant place left, right or center.

The statue of liberty carries the (mythical) words which i always thought beautiful.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door! "

Then I read about what actually happened when people arrived and many were parked in the ghettos of NYC.
Then I realized more and more about the REAL workings of Immigration which reveals ultimately that migration of people disrupts civilization.
That keeps the populous from ever making any generational headway.
That suits those PERPETUAL rulers who see us all as the ants in the hill needing a kick IMO.
UGLY UGLY UGLY IMO.

The history record show how a layering of social hierarchy depends on no political party.
If we had no need for rulership, there would be no rule.
But we have the case where there is always some PROBLEM to need a ruling.
Taxation seems logical to deal with infrastructure but it never goes there.
What is also a bit ugly is our sense of victimization.
SURE we are challenged but we do not own our inner power. We are always afraid of the hoards said to be outside the gates.

The cronies and the serfs and the wage slaves and the actually seriously disenfranchised are what underly politics (which is supposed to be the management of daily life in cities).

The cut throat evil of scrambling for the reins of power is what most people think will make some difference despite its ugliness. The probability that anyone who gets up the ladder has done a black-mail-able act or two means the "leaders" are rotten before they start.

IMO I have no "plan" for a "better world" but the UGLINESS is because we created a sick and death agreeable culture that is not about enjoying wisdom and beauty.

really, I would agree...another good one..."Justice is blind"...It seems it is also deaf and dumb.

One thing, though...Ugliness was sanctioned by Reagan, it became memic with 'Political Correctness' and is now codified by Trump. It always leads to the same place... :)

Fred Steeves

7th October 2018, 22:16

Dreamtimer

8th October 2018, 08:32

Did I get you right Fred? You said the country is coming apart at the seams and it's deliberate?

I really hate to say it but I'm afraid you're right. (In spite of my optimism)

Dreamtimer

8th October 2018, 16:32

Check it out. A non-partisan political ad. It's cleverly done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=fsy4BW7MOwE

Elen

8th October 2018, 16:51

Check it out. A non-partisan political ad. It's cleverly done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=8&v=fsy4BW7MOwE

My goodness! :shocked:

Dreamtimer

8th October 2018, 18:13

My goodness indeed. It's been a fact that for most of my life the younger folks don't vote. My son and his girlfriend do. I get the impression that many of their friends will as well.

The attitudes in this piece are real. We'll see what happens. The generation that has just come of age is very large and seems to be active in the way a certain portion of my demographic was when I was in early adulthood.

Aragorn

8th October 2018, 18:41

My goodness indeed. It's been a fact that for most of my life the younger folks don't vote. My son and his girlfriend do. I get the impression that many of their friends will as well.

And what do they vote for? Evil or Evil? :eyebrows:

Dreamtimer

8th October 2018, 20:54

They vote for themselves really - their future - and their potential to use the system in a different way than it has been. That may not be realistic to us, but to them it most certainly is. That's what the young folk are for, making the change that we no longer can.

Here's another video about voting and "scary time for boys"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N34hehRgw9g

Aragorn

8th October 2018, 23:10

They vote for themselves really - their future - and their potential to use the system in a different way than it has been. That may not be realistic to us, but to them it most certainly is.

But that's just self-delusion. Voting for the other candidate than the one you don't like is not going to make any difference. And both sides of the bipartisan hegemony are always going to capitalize on the things people don't like in the other party or candidate. It's called "populism", and it's not specific to the US. All political parties and candidates do that at election time.

As the matter of fact, with municipal and provincial elections coming up here in Belgium again next Sunday, we're seeing that over here (again) as well, and the bickering between the different political candidates is once again smeared out across the mainstream media, because it sells newspaper copies and ups the viewer ratings, which in turn makes the commercial sponsors happy.

And the joke of it all is that it's mainly centered on the candidates for the city of Antwerp — a city that's quite notorious for considering itself the center of the universe. I don't even live in the province of Antwerp, let alone in Antwerp city, so why would the political bickering between the incumbent mayor of Antwerp and his closest competitor in the polls — who, for that matter, is a different kind of jerk, but nevertheless still just as badly a jerk — be of any interest to me?

It's just the mainstream media's sensationalist streak coming out once again. People love drama, and they love soap operas. Which is exactly what this is.

As a side note, I emptied my mailbox downstairs today, after having been in no shape to do so for about a week. And apart from two or three unaddressed advertisement folders — which (1) is illegal and (2) for which I have an official Town-Hall-supplied sticker on my mailbox that I don't want them, which makes it doubly illegal — the rest of my mail was a whole stack of election propaganda.

There weren't even any bank excerpts or bills in my mailbox — not that I welcome bills, but you know what I mean. ;) It was nothing but a whole stack of paper that I immediately deposited in my trash bag. It costs taxpayer money to print that junk — all political parties in Belgium are always allotted a budget for their electoral propaganda by the government, with the size of the budget depending on the amount of members any given party has — and then it costs even more taxpayer money to recycle that junk again.

:fpalm:

That's what the young folk are for, making the change that we no longer can.

If they think that they can make a difference by continuing to vote for one of two evils, then they are being incredibly naive. Which, considering their young age, they probably are.

The system is too self-protecting, and anything that would truly make a difference — and that therefore by definition would abolish the bipartisan hegemony — is never going to be allowed to manifest. Even now, there already are several US states where you are not allowed to (1) vote for an "Independent" candidate, and (2) run for office as an "Independent" candidate.

You might as well hold a petition to request that the major bankers of the world would start paying half of their salary into a trust fund for the poor and the homeless for a whole year, or to request that the Wall Street brokers would start supporting Fair Trade.

There were massive anti-war protests from youngsters against the USA's involvement with the Vietnam War, but with the conflicts in Laos and Cambodia included, the war lasted for 20 years nevertheless. The only man who wanted to do something about it and pull out of Vietnam was John F. Kennedy, and we all know what happened to him. As soon as Lyndon B. Johnson had taken office as JFK's successor — which was in 1963 — he escalated the US's involvement in Vietnam, and the war would last for another 12 years from then on. And none of the "Give Peace A Chance" heroes from the likes of John Lennon and Yoko Ono — not exactly people without renown — could make even the slightest bit of difference.

Once again, the political machine is a self-protecting apparatus with an impenetrable force field around it. It cannot be broken by following the manual. The only way to break it, in my humble opinion, is through mass civil disobedience. But for that, you need a massive grass roots movement of a significantly greater circumference than the hippie movement ever had. And I just don't see that happening anymore. I just don't. People are too far gone, and especially so within the USA, with its propaganda-imbued education system and the effects thereof on US American culture, past and present.

Fred Steeves

8th October 2018, 23:21

Wind

9th October 2018, 00:08

Both mentalities cause me concern, and I want neither of them with a hand anywhere near the vicinity of power levers.

This is a good example of the head on collision I'm looking at as a distinct possibility in this country, and I'm seeing very few people advising to maybe put the brakes on just a wee bit and think this thing through.
We are going to need a miracle in order to avoid a catastrophe.

http://youtu.be/JsfOrJs5SV4

Emil El Zapato

9th October 2018, 00:23

Did I get you right Fred? You said the country is coming apart at the seams and it's deliberate?

I really hate to say it but I'm afraid you're right. (In spite of my optimism)

Well Chomsky did say that the Republican party is the most dangerous political group in the history of mankind...that would explain some of it I suspect. If he was a religious man, he would probably cite Samson's political brethren as a strong second.

Maggie

9th October 2018, 00:28

Dreamtimer, I hope that kid never gets her hands on power. That anti male rant is no less divisive than the Baptist preacher man next town over who proudly sports a sign at the front of the hardware store he owns stating: "No gays allowed". It's the same state of mind.

Both mentalities cause me concern, and I want neither of them with a hand anywhere near the vicinity of power levers.

This is a good example of the head on collision I'm looking at as a distinct possibility in this country, and I'm seeing very few people advising to maybe put the brakes on just a wee bit and think this thing through.

I share your concern Fred!
If people are focused on retaliation against perceived foes in almost a vendetta like passion, the real work of assessing and addressing real serious MUTUALLY important civil action is smashed up by the frenzy.

My vision:
A sober, nonpartisan, apolitically motivated group of broad thinking people come together. They are all respected because they JUST ARE RESPECTABLE. They who can present the plan FOR peace, For egality, equality, fraternity and lead us in consensus is my expectation for government. We could so easily be a country that can handle all the upheavals because we have a common goal....

What could be a central uniting goal? Maybe no one ever asks that question because they are in constant crisis and emotional upheaval.
This emotionality is being mightily manipulated on all sides.

Dispassionate practical necessities that make it possible to have peace and prosperity should be evident to any one.
One example:
All want to have employment in rewarding work... the needs and concerns of working people is needing REAL representation.
Free enterprise is IMO not about being controlled by corporate structures.

Business driven by profits for investors ignores human and planetary well being.
Business exists FOR ITSELF. It is up to US to protect ourselves by uniting FOR well placed enlightened business and local manufacturing and real jobs.
This could even look like socialism but its not necessarily the wrong move to have local government sponsored public utilities include businesses.
There is a Cooperative movement in Spain. i see us making end runs around the sick system we dislike.

Mondragon, a cooperative in Spain. ... The fundamental premise of the cooperative movement is a faith in people's natural capacity to improve themselves economically and socially through mutual self-help in democratically- controlled economic organizations.

The Mondragon cooperatives in Spain’s Basque region are perhaps the most famous example of democratic worker-owner industrial enterprises that have continued to grow and thrive for almost 50 years. These cooperatives were initiated soon after World War II by a young priest named Don Jose Maria Arizmendiaretta. Due to acute poverty in this region, most of the youth were migrating in search of livelihood. Don Jose Maria was convinced that it was possible to make a success of a humanistic cooperative business within the capitalist world.http://base.d-p-h.info/en/fiches/dph/fiche-dph-7537.html

Serving corporations (for perks and campaign donations) leads political leaders to undermine what people really desire and deserve!

I will continue feeling that no matter what the "collective is doing", I am not thwarted in my own life.
i feel nostalgia for something I know could absolutely be the case for us as citizens: thriving.

Emil El Zapato

9th October 2018, 00:29

They vote for themselves really - their future - and their potential to use the system in a different way than it has been. That may not be realistic to us, but to them it most certainly is. That's what the young folk are for, making the change that we no longer can.

Here's another video about voting and "scary time for boys"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N34hehRgw9g

Great song, sweet girl and motervated for some 'balance and justice'...my daughter would scoff because of the blond hair...but I'll cut her some slack (b.t.w some of my daughter's best friends are blond) :)

Dreamtimer

9th October 2018, 02:25

Massive civil disobedience may just happen.

But I don't really think the young generation sees voting as the one answer. I think they're going to get themselves into office, like young woman from the Bronx who's freaking out the right. Heads are really exploding over her.

I don't get what you're saying about the girl singing the song, Fred. She's singing a song about rights and urging people to vote. She's using a good bit of sarcasm. I find your reaction very strange.

Fred Steeves

9th October 2018, 03:09

We are going to need a miracle in order to avoid a catastrophe.

It's interesting though that the more I see the eye wall of this storm approaching, the more infinite potential I see possible. FOR PROPERLY MOTIVATED AND PREPARED INDIVIDUALS THAT IS, not for general society as a whole.

Dreamtimer

9th October 2018, 13:54

Emil El Zapato

10th October 2018, 00:14

I just found out about an evangelical organization (https://www.votecommongood.com/keeping-track-of-whats-not-common-good/) which is going around the country and actually promoting care and compassion for all people.

There is some hope for them...they likely will be ostracised and end up forming their own denomination...true Christians will not be tolerated under any circumstances.

Dreamtimer

11th October 2018, 15:21

It's going to be 78.5 degrees this afternoon. By tonight it will be 25 degrees cooler and then even cooler overnight on the weekend.

I got my wish for cooler weather. Also, the trees are gonna turn like mad when it happens.

Emil El Zapato

12th October 2018, 01:10

I had a facsimile dream about the Soyuz problem the other night but didn't bother to mention of it...lack of time ... :)

I wonder if this describes the scene at all.

A space age shuttle looking craft was acting very wobbly just above the treeline and then fell to earth. It was weird because the pilots two of them came out of the craft as it crashed and rolled down a rocky hillside but relatively unhurt. The craft now out of control veered over some nearby homes and then crashed into a house with a tremendous explosion...sort of like an apocalypse of fire and thunder. Lights have been acting weird around me again...I think I'm going active again... :) or crazy.... :)

Dreamtimer

12th October 2018, 04:25

I used to have dreams regularly of jets and planes crashing. And also people on highways suddenly veering into jersey walls and crashing.

Dreamtimer

12th October 2018, 12:36

As the southeastern United States continued to deal with the devastation of Hurricane Michael, Trump spent his morning calling in to Fox News to rant for the better part of an hour — prompting one of the hosts to remind Trump to go do his job.

“We know you’re probably running short on time,” co-host Steve Doocy gently prompted Trump after about 34 minutes of this.

When it was finally over, Doocy signed off by telling Trump, “Go run the country.”

This isn't the first time this has happened.

Dreamtimer

12th October 2018, 13:18

This ad mentions 'average Joe' and is about the tax cuts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=47&v=VrCNKT69Ep8

Emil El Zapato

13th October 2018, 17:20

Aragorn

13th October 2018, 17:47

palooka's revenge

13th October 2018, 18:03

I just heard something hilarious on the radio:

A republican congressman from Alabama was testifying at a hearing on global warming. He is a member of the Science, Space, and Technology committe which is why he was there. He made this suggestion:

"The ocean levels rising might not be due to warming, it could be rising because of all the rocks falling in it"... lol! Yes, he actually said that.

there are a lot of this sort of embarrassment floating to the top these days. ie...

During a speech at a natural gas conference on March 28, 2017, Pennsylvania State Senator and 2018 Gubernatorial candidate Scott Wagner contradicted scientific research linking climate change to greenhouse gas emissions.

After acknowledging that climate change is “probably” happening, Senator Wagner asserted that emissions are likely not the cause. Rather, he suggested that climate change may be due to “the rotation of the earth,” which causes Earth to “move[] closer to the sun every year.” He also asserted that climate change could be the result of population growth, stating:

“We have more people…you know, humans have warm bodies. So is heat coming off? Things are changing…but I think we are, as a society, doing the best we can.” (http://columbiaclimatelaw.com/silencing-science-tracker/climate-science-misrepresented-by-pennsylvania-state-senator/)

Emil El Zapato

13th October 2018, 19:31

lol, jeezus h. Christ...

Dreamtimer

14th October 2018, 12:54

Bush used to talk about listening to "his generals on the ground". The idea being that they were the experts.

The leader we have now doesn't believe in experts. Or science, apparently. Or norms, or traditions, or morays, or standards, or rule-of-law...

Emil El Zapato

14th October 2018, 13:01

Emil El Zapato

14th October 2018, 14:44

My daughter is going to be very disappointed in me...One of the cats she got a couple of years ago has been gone for 3 days now. I hope wherever she is she is ok...I always hear my cats 'meow' in my head ...the brain does this quite commonly. When I was letting the other cat out this morning, I swear I could hear the other kitty 'meow'. My other cat turned to look at the same time so he seem to hear it, too or he might have just been keying off me...cats will do that too.

Just now, I heard my male cat fighting with the neighborhood bully and so I ran outside to save him. The bully cat jumped on the fence as it was heading out believe it or not it gave my cat the eye bat...a signifier of cat love. This bully cat is the kind of cat that attacks even its own step-siblings (it was adopted as a stray). Anyway, I hope that cat didn't hurt my little siamese mix... :(

it is a pretty little cat, if she is gone forever, I hope someone stole her and will give her a good home...

Dreamtimer

14th October 2018, 23:01

I'm mourning the loss of a cat that wasn't even mine. He was still a kitten...

Fred Steeves

14th October 2018, 23:10

Well now I'm feeling that with you as well, and I'm sorry that happened. I see that big heart of yours dear lady, what happened?

Dreamtimer

14th October 2018, 23:35

We found a new B&B in Pennsylvania. At the end of June we were there and the mama cat had four kittens. One, the black one, was particularly friendly to me. These kittens were just a few weeks old and cute as all get-out. He (I think) was friendly to me and started to follow me through the garden. This weekend we found out that the mama had disappeared and all but one kitten was gone.

The one remaining looks just like the mom, and purrs very loudly. She wants to go inside, but the cats have always been outdoor cats. They have a barn to sleep in. This is in Amish country.

The family had gone away for two weeks earlier in the summer. Another family member was watching the house and animals, and the cats went missing, they don't know why.

I was really sad to find out that the black kitten had likely been hit by a car. He was so adorable.

So today at the festival there was a woman who had her black cat in her arms in a blanket. It had beautiful green eyes. She let me and others pet the cat who loved every second. I felt better after that.

Dreamtimer

15th October 2018, 18:38

Maggie

20th October 2018, 18:01

Elizabeth Warren is making hay over Trump's demand that she prove her heritage. She released the DNA results and has suggested he make good on his word to donate $1million to a charity of her choice. She chose (http://www.niwrc.org/donate-niwrc).

My fav is a political cartoon by Taylor Jones. (I won't post it here but I think it's brilliant)

regarding the heritage, 1/32 native american is very small and I don't think the genetics is as important as the epigenetics.

Lately I have been feeling confused because what seems very important is that we have microplastics in water, macroplastics killing sea life, massive destruction from storms to clean up and LOTS of displaced people. I think it may be that these events whether man made (and I am not sure about that?) or natural will sink our "ship" of state. There are so many more issues that look important such as that we have turned so much into a service economy here that i wonder if we even have factories capable of building "stuff" so we are in need of all this new stuff from other countries (building material also)

Then there is the episode where I learn that Trump values his Saudi ties to an AMAZING extent. Apparently selling arms is the US export now? I cannot help but recall the implications that Saudis were involved with the US in the 9/11 events?

And then I read this article where I learn something new about the world view of the white patriarchy(that includes Kavanaugh) concerning white people. I think about the stupidity I see in the white men who look to me like blocks of wood in ties. I think about how I really believed in the late 2000's that we are actually about to have a world of peace and prosperity?

Rep. Steve King Goes Full White Nationalist In Interview With Austrian Site
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-rep-steve-king-austria-white-nationalist_us_5bca4851e4b0a8f17eec6001

Now I feel so curious about which angle on chaos is the one that will undo every shred of calm and collected reason? I am not sure about anything anymore other than that I am definitely sensing that REM was precognitive. ALSO, if I am kind today and grateful and make sure I look carefully as it all may be about to be dustified.....

SING

That's great, it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes and aeroplanes
Lenny Bruce is not afraid
Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn
World serves its own needs, don't misserve your own needs
Speed it up a notch, speed, grunt, no, strength
The ladder starts to clatter with fear of height, down, height
Wire in a fire, represent the seven games
And a government for hire and a combat site
Left of west and coming in a hurry
With the Furies breathing down your neck
Team by team, reporters baffled, trumped, tethered, cropped
Look at that low plane, fine, then
Uh oh, overflow, population, common group
But it'll do, save yourself, serve yourself.
World serves its own needs, listen to your heart bleed
Tell me with the Rapture and the reverent in the right, right
You vitriolic, patriotic, slam fight, bright light
Feeling pretty psyched

[Chorus]
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
And I feel fine

-s97_bBGobQ

Emil El Zapato

20th October 2018, 18:32

regarding the heritage, 1/32 native american is very small and I don't think the genetics is as important as the epigenetics.

Lately I have been feeling confused because what seems very important is that we have microplastics in water, macroplastics killing sea life, massive destruction from storms to clean up and LOTS of displaced people. I think it may be that these events whether man made (and I am not sure about that?) or natural will sink our "ship" of state. There are so many more issues that look important such as that we have turned so much into a service economy here that i wonder if we even have factories capable of building "stuff" so we are in need of all this new stuff from other countries (building material also)

Then there is the episode where I learn that Trump values his Saudi ties to an AMAZING extent. Apparently selling arms is the US export now? I cannot help but recall the implications that Saudis were involved with the US in the 9/11 events?

And then I read this article where I learn something new about the world view of the white patriarchy(that includes Kavanaugh) concerning white people. I think about the stupidity I see in the white men who look to me like blocks of wood in ties. I think about how I really believed in the late 2000's that we are actually about to have a world of peace and prosperity?

Rep. Steve King Goes Full White Nationalist In Interview With Austrian Site
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-rep-steve-king-austria-white-nationalist_us_5bca4851e4b0a8f17eec6001

Now I feel so curious about which angle on chaos is the one that will undo every shred of calm and collected reason? I am not sure about anything anymore other than that I am definitely sensing that REM was precognitive. ALSO, if I am kind today and grateful and make sure I look carefully as it all may be about to be dustified.....

SING

-s97_bBGobQ

I was just running out the door and saw this...I will be back later to read and reflect on it.

But... :) It occurred to me the other day that a more apt racial delineation lies along the line of 'those that fear, retreat, and lash out (no, not John Lash)' and those that 'effectively adapt'. Oh brother (and sister) that is a big one.

Emil El Zapato

21st October 2018, 13:00

There are so many more issues that look important such as that we have turned so much into a service economy here that i wonder if we even have factories capable of building "stuff" so we are in need of all this new stuff from other countries (building material also)

This was the glaring oversight of the last 40 years. The vision foresaw innovative new enterprises to fill the gap but reality is what it is. This gives us the likely trend of the future. It is sort of like ugliness, all roads lead to Rome. Dramatic changes have to happen unless we choose to be satisfied with a world culture where 1% have servants, veritable slaves, and comfort attendees while the leftovers are street dwellers.

It would be nice if the street dwellers would quit enabling the 1%'ers.

Dreamtimer

22nd October 2018, 11:37

Boyan Slat's program is under way. He well may make a big difference in ridding the ocean of plastics.

Dreamtimer

22nd October 2018, 11:56

How bizarre it is to see Michael Cohen advising people to vote Democrat. People like Steve Schmidt telling people to vote straight Dem ticket.

I'm only in my fifties, but I've never seen anything like this.

For Goodness sake, Max Boot is talking about how the Republican party needs to end (so it can re-form). I've heard him speak for decades and I never thought I'd hear him say that.

Dreamtimer

22nd October 2018, 12:32

This is from Max Boot. He was born in Russia and came to America and became a citizen. He was a lifelong, devout Republican. He was surprised at what Trump has uncovered, but I wasn't. I've seen it all along. People can stay in denial for a very long time.

“I’m ashamed to admit that it took the emergence of Donald Trump. I was in my conservative bunker, and I thought this was a gross libel against the Republican Party to claim that we were catering to racism, or that it was a libel on America to claim that America was a pervasively racist society. And then Trump came along and I realized, “Wait a second. There is a much larger constituency for racism and xenophobia than I had realized.” And it made me think, “Oh, my goodness. This is why a lot of people were voting Republican.” It wasn’t because they loved supply-side economics. It wasn’t because they supported NATO. It was because they were looking for a candidate who would champion the interests of white people. And Donald Trump did that more unabashedly and more unapologetically than previous Republican candidates had done. That was a wake-up call.”

It's also why Republicans have flip-flopped on so many of their 'positions' with Trump. Because they were really just cover.

My brother, at least, didn't deny the racism. He's always known.

Dreamtimer

22nd October 2018, 13:07

People have been earning nicknames after harassing/calling cops on black people doing ordinary things, including children.

Apartment entrances: Checkpoint Chuck

Fast food restaurants: Drive-thru Sue

Gas stations: Full Tank Hank

Sporting venues: Golf Cart Gail

Children's lemonade stands: Permit Patty

Sidewalks: Blockade Becca

Public parks: BBQ Betty

Movie theaters: Ticket Stub Bub

Retail establishments: Cornerstone Caroline

This, of course, is a kind of public shaming. It reflects the stuff that happens that a lot of people didn't used to believe. The term "driving while black" has been around for many years now. It refers to being pulled over for no violation, just for looking 'suspicious' due to being black.

Maggie

22nd October 2018, 14:57

Boyan Slat's program is under way. He well may make a big difference in ridding the ocean of plastics.

I will look that up.

Skipping ahead to you next posts, I am thinking about the Khashoggi murder and how Trump stated that Saudis are so important we will overlook their tendency to dismember men while alive when encountering disagreement. Trump does not want to mess up arms sales that are necessary for our economy. So we have become a third world nation where weapons are our most valued GNP?

Does Trumps strange love of the "sheets" (as my brother calls them) and other despots signal the alt right embrace of third world governing policies? Does Trump reveal he is actually the DEEP STATE at work and NOT ITS antithesis?

My brother works for Gulfstream and his job, (which is repairing jets) stranded him for weeks in Dubai where he experienced the sheets. He told me years ago that these were the most disgustingly entitled and hateful people he could ever have imagined. They actually frightened him because he saw that anyone standing in their way might be easily "disappeared".

Dreamtimer

22nd October 2018, 16:19

I have a brother-in-law who worked for a few years in Saudi Arabia. His movements were carefully controlled by them. He lived on base and yet was afraid and kept a Koran by his front door as a sort of protection. The men were extremely difficult to work with, mostly because they didn't want to do work.

I worked at the American University in Washington DC for a few years before 911. There were a lot of arab students there from all over the Middle East and North Africa. The young women enjoyed their freedom in the US, but many knew they would not have it when they returned home. It was at times tragic.

The students who had diplomatic immunity parked their cars all over the place, thumbed their noses at the rules and were generally a-holes.

Saudi Arabia is the worst of the arab nations, imo. They spread the most vile form of Islam, I probably shouldn't even call it by that name. Wahabism is evil, imo.

In Tunisia, they were observant without being militant about it. There weren't any 'morality police' running around whipping people.

It was really in large measure a gossip type of society. Everyone lived behind high walls and yet somehow managed to talk about everybody else's business.

My understanding is that it's still pretty tourist friendly there. The muslim women don't have to shroud themselves. I've heard that from people who've recently been to Tunisia.

We have an unfortunately long history of arms sales all over the world.

Arms sales are easy and constant money and directly related to fomenting wars.

Maggie

23rd October 2018, 03:36

Saudi Arabia is the worst of the arab nations, imo. They spread the most vile form of Islam, I probably shouldn't even call it by that name. Wahabism is evil, imo.

When my brother reported his experience in Dubai, he ended it with his wish to see the whole place "nuked". He is not a rabid war monger. He is far from racist. I was a little surprised.

Think about the Saudi connection to 9/11 and to the massacre in Las Vegas, (and I don't buy the official story of the pilots etc. I do buy that they may have been the patsies just as there was probably a patsie in Las Vegas), now considering the "rise" of Trump I add his love of despots. I have decided that we may want to look somewhere unexpected to find the "deep state". Oil and the kow tow to oil producers and oil distributing energy companies has been a 20th century phenomenon. What else do we need to know?

Theories of Mandalay Bay/ Saudi connection
2bZJXguz-O4

Dreamtimer

23rd October 2018, 12:07

Someone filmed Alex Jones yelling at a piece of shit on the road calling it Marco Rubio. Dear Lord...:fpalm:

Dreamtimer

23rd October 2018, 12:41

This is the kind of shite that happens when you whip people up into a frenzy with dog-whistles and other such trash:

Law enforcement officials responded to an incident at the home of liberal billionaire George Soros on Monday evening, an officer with the Bedford, New York, police department told HuffPost.

A Soros employee opened a package containing an explosive device and called police Monday afternoon, prompting bomb squad technicians to come detonate it, The New York Times reported.

Soros has been a frequent target of conspiracy theories and fear-mongering by hyper-nationalist conservatives in the U.S. and Europe, who often rely on anti-Semitic tropes when they characterize him as a shadowy figure encouraging mass migration and torpedoing traditional Christian culture. President Donald Trump has personally attacked him as well.

Soros has become a hate symbol among Right wingers, who attack him verbally with insane fury and hatred. Now it appears that one of the Right wing haters has taken it to the next level.

Wind

24th October 2018, 15:24

Obama and Clinton were on the mailing list too:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/10/24/bomb-sent-bill-hillary-clintons-home-new-york-city-suburb/?utm_term=.8af9997bc485

I don't ever buy the official narrative though. This somehow reminds of the anthrax letters-episode (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks) which was of course total bogus and a diversion during the 9/11 era. Then again, many of Trump's fringe followers can be insane so I wouldn't actually be surprised if they wanted to blow up people like these.

Fred Steeves

24th October 2018, 16:35

It could be someone trying to frame Right wingers, it could be a diversion, or it very well may be an unhinged Right winger, they are out there of course. But, let's not forget it was a disgruntled Bernie Sanders supporter who, were it not for two Capitol Police on hand to guard the Speaker of the House, would have slaughtered nearly every Republican in Congress during a baseball practice with an AK 47 just a few months ago.

This is why both sides need to cool it with the hot button political rhetoric, there is real trouble coming in this country if this keeps spiraling out of control. Both sides are doing it, both sides have already become violent, and both sides need to knock it the fuck off.

Dreamtimer

24th October 2018, 18:13

Both sides? Really? That's like saying that the decades-long history of the KKK is parallel to the newly manifested antifa which has no level of organization that can even approach the KKK and its history of violence.

One side's leader, our President, has been openly promoting violence since his campaign.

There ain't no left parallel to the Proud Boys and the bombs being mailed around the country.

One side has a pound of ammo. The other side has tons.

It ain't comparable.

Fred Steeves

24th October 2018, 22:47

This is why both sides need to cool it with the hot button political rhetoric, there is real trouble coming in this country if this keeps spiraling out of control. Both sides are doing it, both sides have already become violent, and both sides need to knock it the fuck off.

Both sides? Really? That's like saying that the decades-long history of the KKK is parallel to the newly manifested antifa which has no level of organization that can even approach the KKK and its history of violence.

Yes. Both sides. Really. In it's hay day, the Klan had bigger fish to fry than petty party politics.

What historians call the Second Ku Klux Klan launched in 1915 and reached the apex of its power in the mid-1920s, when it exerted deep cultural and political influence around the country. The Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights nonprofit that tracks hate groups, estimates that the Klan had up to 4 million active members in the United States at its apex, about 5 percent of the adult population.

Klansmen were influential inside both major parties, pushing racism, nativism, Prohibition and especially anti-Catholicism. In the South, Jim Crow-supporting Democrats made a natural fit for the KKK. But in Midwestern industrial towns full of immigrant Catholics and Jews who voted Democratic, the Klan took root largely among Republicans. The Klan was Democratic in Oregon and Republican in Indiana — two of its biggest strongholds. By the end of the decade, the organization, whose membership remained semi-secret, claimed 11 governors, 16 senators and as many as 75 congressmen —roughly split between Republicans and Democrats.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/03/15/how-social-media-spread-a-historical-lie/?utm_term=.8f0b05973ee6

As an aside, ANTIFA is much more dangerous than the Klan these days.

One side's leader, our President, has been openly promoting violence since his campaign.

Former Obama Attorney General Eric Holder:

When they go low, we kick 'em': Obama's AG calls on Democrats to shed civility
https://www.rt.com/usa/440934-holder-kick-democrats-violence/

Democratic Representative Maxine Waters:

“If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them and you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere,”
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/25/17501450/maxine-waters-trump-pelosi-civility-sarah-sanders

There ain't no left parallel to the Proud Boys and the bombs being mailed around the country.

No one knows for sure what's going on there yet. Maybe it is the work of a Far Right Wing nut job, then again maybe not. Jumping to conclusions is what started Iraq War 2, and gets Syria bombed.

One side has a pound of ammo. The other side has tons.

It ain't comparable.

Even when you choose to ignore the Bernie Sanders supporting nut job that attempted to murder more that half of the U.S. House of Representatives practicing on a baseball diamond with an AK 47, these and other unbiased realities on the ground do not back up your assertions.

Suspect in congressional shooting was Bernie Sanders supporter, strongly anti-Trump
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/homepage2/james-hodgkinson-profile/index.html

Dreamtimer

25th October 2018, 13:17

The rhetoric of Holder or Obama don't hold a candle to the president telling people to send them out in stretchers and he'll pay for the bills. They don't equal in weight or in number. In the history of America, the right wing has produced much more violence. It's pretty obvious. That's been the ID of most of our domestic terrorists.

And now conservatives are spreading the idea that the bombs being mailed around are being sent by liberals posing as conservatives. That's textbook projection.

As shameful as that is, what really amazes me is how easily some will eat that up.

palooka's revenge

25th October 2018, 17:57

It pains me to have to say this but Fred is right on this one by my observation. All ya gotta do is go on social media and read. It is systemic, it is toxic, it is scary, and it is nation wide. I see hateful attacks coming from both sides. It is a HUGE problem and it just may end up in the streets, ratcheting up the police state. Those who see it only one way are a large part of the problem and there are waaaaaay too many on both sides.

When there is wildfire it is put down with more fire. The right is on fire. I expect that kind of vitriol from them because they don't couch it. They're right in your face with it. Not so with the left who present themselves as the loving, compassionate ones. Especially the ones who consider themselves progressives. It is the pot calling the kettle black.

Here in the Atlanta metro which is red dominant there is a significant number of like minded folks who for the last 30 years collectively refer to themselves as the Phamily. i think it fair to say a high percentage lean left and identify as progressives. I consider myself one of them politically and socially. i see some of them all over social media doin' their thang. It's embarrassing, its wrong, and its political suicide. I tell them, hey, why do U stoop to their level? Do U know U are doing the exact same thing U are accusing them of? U do this out of one side of your mouth while thumping for blue out of the other. In this political arena there are the vociferous ones on both side.s and then there are the quiet ones. Do U realize there are many who watch, who see you calling out the right on hypocrisy, who won't say anything about what they see coming from U that U adamantly deny. How they feel about U behaving and what you are saying? Until they go to vote....

You know what I get back? This, for one thing....

HRC STOLE the primary. Also, she was/is a hawk and hard wired to big corp.
MILLIONS know this and a significant % stayed home with a much smaller % writing in sanders
and an even smaller % voting for trump.

That's all true but it don't justify their behavior from where I'm lookin'.

Denial creates an experience or experiences equal to or greater than the denial so the denial can be cleared.

In the land of woo where the state energy is in has everything to do with what manifests, it is exactly their denial that got Trump elected! And it may well backfire on them again in the midterms. I see NO shift being made. No move to own what they are doing. All I hear are excuses. Deny, deny, deny!!

What do U call making fun and a put down rolled into one?

Political suicide!

We can saw guys like Colbert get a mulligan cuz its comedy and comedians have been making fun of politicians forever. i don't think its the left's funny bone he's scratching, it's their rage/hate bone. it makes me sick! it was a completely dif shtick when O was in the seat. And then, there was O at the national press club where he went after Trump who is sitting in the audience with all eyes on him. He luvs the spotlight but he's also vindictive i think that's when he said to himself, ok smart guy, we'll see who wins the next one.

Wind

25th October 2018, 18:07

It takes two to tango, that's all I'm going to say.

Dreamtimer

26th October 2018, 02:46

palooka's revenge

26th October 2018, 05:22

We know about magic and the occult here.

In the land of woo where the state energy is in has everything to do with what manifests

With all due respect DT, the word woo has many definitions and connotations as does the word occult. How those are used and which meaning or connotation is being forwarded is often determined by context.

My use of the word in the comment is in context of energy. A dynamic we can't see but we can see what is manifest as a reflection of underlying energies that are in play. That pretty much throws it into the woo box for me. Perhaps I should have been more clear or used a different word. Like metaphysical, maybe? My apologies for the confusion... p

edit to add: Or perhaps U are telling me introducing such a word is off topic and if I want to go there I might take it to a tread more appropriate?

Chris

26th October 2018, 07:39

Indeed, to both of you.

I was listening to Mark Passio earlier today. He described our government as a cult and people who vote cult supporters. I understand what he says, but there're a few complications with removing oneself from it.

I live in a system where people are voting and exercising power and will have no problem shoving their cult values down my throat. And so I'd rather use the system than sink into chaos and infighting and possibly war.

There is one side which has been chanting en masse in front of their Dear Leader.

There is one side which has spent the last few decades amassing arms.

There is one side which marched with torches - again with the chanting - using words like 'Blood and Soil' and 'Jews will not replace us'

There is one side which is flying the Don't Tread on Me flag and chanting Revolutionary quotes.

There is one side which has been discussing Civil War for years now.

One side, folks. Not two.

We know about magic and the occult here.

This is not a both sides thing.

I really agree with you Dreamtimer. I keep harping on about trying not to make false equivalences. Just because there are two sides to everything, does not mean they're equally culpable or valid. Our sense of fairness teaches us to give equal consideration to both sides in a debate or conflict, but once the facts are established, there really is just one side, the one that is true and on the right side of history.

The Truth is, and Aragorn will back me up on this, that the US does not really have a political Left. It has essentially been wiped out in the fifties, during the McCarthy era. It hasn't been that strong in the US to begin with, especially with the unusually strong religiosity, at least for what is a Western, industrialised and thoroughly modern nation.

The Democrats are a corporatist, centrist party, it does serve as a Tent for Leftist and Progressive movements, but the party Hierarchy is essentially Christian Democrat, in the same vein as Angela Merkel. By European standards, it is a centre-right party. The Republicans are clearly far-right, though they also try to suck up the votes from Libertarian types. They are moving ever further to the right with each election and are now essentially proto-fascist.

There is no balance in US politics in this regard, we are talking about two right-wing corporatist parties here, one is just more extreme than the other. Hillary Clinton is to the Right of people like Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban on most issues, if you actually look at their policies rather than just the rhetoric, which is for public consumption only.

Wind

26th October 2018, 13:48

I smell something fishy about this bombing campaign, it's too... Theatrical. The explosives were not meant to be dangerous as they had no igniters. At best they were meant just to send a message, but by whom? We are being lead to assume the answer, but it might not be that. What's coming soon? The elections. Someone is stirring up things and for a reason.

Dreamtimer

26th October 2018, 14:04

I didn't use the word woo. I don't think I've used it more than once or twice on this forum. It's not a word I use. I'm gonna have to go back and have a look, palooka. I'm unclear what you're saying.

My dad made fun of my cousin once. He kept saying, "She's a little woo-woo." He had just learned the word and was trying it out.

He was insulting her spirit and her beliefs. She is the highest level nurse you can be, travelled to India every year for most of her life teaching health care, has helped my brother and his family immensely, and I was quite disgusted to hear my father speak that way.

Someone elsewhere wrote a diary listing what one side has done which was much more extensive than my list.

False parallels and both-siderism are very very dangerous.

Here's the other person's list:

ONE SIDE sent death threats to the Dixie Chicks, Dr. Ford, the Parkland kids, various news outlets, and anyone else who dared to disagree with their political views.

ONE SIDE blew up a daycare center full of infants with a truck bomb.

ONE SIDE lamented that the above right-wing terrorist didn’t bomb the NYT building instead.

ONE SIDE has shot up black/liberal churches, Sikh temples, abortion clinics, and schools.

ONE SIDE worships guns because they view the 2nd Amendment as a tool to oppress and intimidate, not a tool to defend.

ONE SIDE said “If ballots don’t work, bullets will” and constantly threatened to “water the tree of liberty” because they were butthurt that a black man was president.

ONE SIDE constantly calls for the imprisonment of their political opponents and uses their pictures as target practice.

ONE SIDE has literal Nazis in its ranks.

ONE SIDE marched with tiki torches in Charlottesville calling for ethnic cleansing and drove into a crowd of protesters, killing one.

ONE SIDE placed crosshairs on several Congressmen, one of whom ended up getting shot.

ONE SIDE is working with a hostile foreign nation to subvert our democracy because they would rather side with America’s enemies than with their rival political party, and are wearing T-shirts saying exactly that.

ONE SIDE is sending pipe bombs to prominent political figures whom the current pResident despises.

And that ONE SIDE sure as hell isn’t the Democrats.

While we worry over the guy with a pistol and five bullets, the guy across the street with a houseful of arms is about to go on a killing spree.

It's just not the same.

Whomever is sending the bombs is really stupid to target people like Clapper. The entire intelligence community is going to take this personally.

For a long time the FBI, and the intelligence agencies have been seen as predominantly filled with Republicans because they are supposedly the law and order party. The conduct of Trump and his followers is a grave insult and one they won't take lightly.

palooka's revenge

26th October 2018, 21:49

I didn't use the word woo. I don't think I've used it more than once or twice on this forum. It's not a word I use. I'm gonna have to go back and have a look, palooka. I'm unclear what you're saying.

I know U didn't darlin' and i'm only here now to say that much and that my re was prompted by you're reference to magic and occult which i'd assumed was directed toward my use of the word woo. there is more i want say say but not at this time for reasons we are all aware of right now.

PurpleLama

26th October 2018, 22:45

The bomb thing is an inside job, people were talking about violent leftists, and the narrative had to change. I haven't done due diligence on the claims, but I've seen from several sources that many of these bombs were total duds. These have been reports about different bombs.

Fred Steeves

26th October 2018, 22:51

Someone elsewhere wrote a diary listing what one side has done which was much more extensive than my list.

False parallels and both-siderism are very very dangerous.

A hyper partisan list like that is what's really dangerous, something I would expect to see copied and pasted on Facebook, not on a supposed truth seeking research forum. There are so many holes in its overall accuracy I could drive an 18 wheeler through it. I would do yet another fact based tutorial, but it's already been well demonstrated here that facts don't matter when the recipient is playing goalie for an indefensible argument.

I saw a short interview with Clint Eastwood years ago where he commented something to the effect that when people on either side round the corner far enough in their political extremism, they can wind up cordially shaking hands with one another in agreement on their aspirations. Dreamtimer, you don't realize just how similar and compatible your extreme political positions are to that of turiya's and the entire Trump/Q raging phenomena. The symbiotic yin/yang relationship. What you are both championing is about the exact identical thing: Eliminate the other side, and everything will be just hunky dory.

World history of course has a much different take on that sentiment, and world history also dictates that when its lessons are ignored, they will be repeated. Again, and again, and again. And this particular age old lesson is well into the process of being repeated, again, right this very minute...

modwiz

26th October 2018, 23:34

A hyper partisan list like that is what's really dangerous, something I would expect to see copied and pasted on Facebook, not on a supposed truth seeking research forum. There are so many holes in it's overall accuracy I could drive an 18 wheeler through it. I would do yet another fact based tutorial, but it's already been well demonstrated here that facts don't matter when the recipient is playing goalie for an indefensible argument.

I saw a short interview with Clint Eastwood years ago where he commented something to the effect that when people on either side round the corner far enough in their political extremism, they can wind up cordially shaking hands with one another in agreement on their aspirations. Dreamtimer, you don't realize just how similar and compatible your extreme political positions are to that of turiya's and the entire Trump/Q raging phenomena. The symbiotic yin/yang relationship. What you are both championing is about the exact identical thing: Eliminate the other side, and everything will be just hunky dory.

World history of course has a much different take on that sentiment, and world history also dictates that when it's lessons are ignored, they will be repeated. Again, and again, and again. And this particular age old lesson is well into the process of being repeated, again, right this very minute...

The fluoride is working wherever it is deployed. Red or blue areas just descend into different kings of retarded thinking. I picked a fluoride free county to live in.

I also know the meaning of futility.

Dreamtimer

26th October 2018, 23:35

Dreamtimer

26th October 2018, 23:48

Looks like I've earned another badge. Gonna have to get me a sash soon...

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.e-patchesandcrests.com%2Fcatalogue%2Fsets%2Fflames_o f_scouting_set%2FES1509_extreme_adventure_flame.jp g&sp=f2598f40627295bf733e921ad1581077

Emil El Zapato

27th October 2018, 01:03

A hyper partisan list like that is what's really dangerous, something I would expect to see copied and pasted on Facebook, not on a supposed truth seeking research forum. There are so many holes in it's overall accuracy I could drive an 18 wheeler through it. I would do yet another fact based tutorial, but it's already been well demonstrated here that facts don't matter when the recipient is playing goalie for an indefensible argument.

I saw a short interview with Clint Eastwood years ago where he commented something to the effect that when people on either side round the corner far enough in their political extremism, they can wind up cordially shaking hands with one another in agreement on their aspirations. Dreamtimer, you don't realize just how similar and compatible your extreme political positions are to that of turiya's and the entire Trump/Q raging phenomena. The symbiotic yin/yang relationship. What you are both championing is about the exact identical thing: Eliminate the other side, and everything will be just hunky dory.

World history of course has a much different take on that sentiment, and world history also dictates that when it's lessons are ignored, they will be repeated. Again, and again, and again. And this particular age old lesson is well into the process of being repeated, again, right this very minute...

I disagree...the way I see it is that DT merely has a clean grasp on reality...ain't nuthin' wrong with that AT ALL!

PurpleLama

27th October 2018, 01:05

Emil El Zapato

27th October 2018, 01:07

I'm sorry, but what are my positions? What is so extreme? I'm neither far left nor far right. What in the world are you talking about, Fred?

Saying that both-siderism is dangerous has no partisan aspects.

Labelling people breaks down communication and understanding.

"Shoot the Messenger" is a common tactic to end discussion. So I'm now extreme. Ridiculous.

Fluoride? Seriously? I have well water.

DT, what can I say...there is only one reality no matter how many claims there are to the contrary...strangely enough, the ones that tend to see something different are those that are disposed to 'defend their history, not the here and now. Where's DD when we need him...he was spot on being consumed with timeline shifts because it seems that is the only way 'our history' will cease disturbing the present.

Maggie

27th October 2018, 01:40

I picked a fluoride free county to live in.

Where is that?

Aianawa

27th October 2018, 01:45

Interesting terrorstory NAP, reality only one, even science old n new theories multi and most people have more n none and some less than 8.

Maggie

27th October 2018, 01:49

...there is only one reality no matter how many claims there are to the contrary...strangely enough, the ones that tend to see something different are those that are disposed to 'defend their history, not the here and now.

Your statement makes lots of sense. It reminds me of my friend Satya who once said "All delusions will be corrected". HE IS SPEAKING OF THE BIG PICTURE. I really trust that over "time" I will be cleared but I am excited to think it may be this lifetime. I think that all the energy being put forth to push a political party (of any kind) is a massive funnel and a waster of precious life force. I like DT's thread "good news". All the good news is apolitical, nonpartison and without borders.

I am thinking seriously about moving abroad because US of A is filled by people who are like sparklers and sparklers are only for show.

“Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

Emil El Zapato

27th October 2018, 02:00

I'm smiling...that's good...

until the preponderance of what IS real becomes extant...then all rational debate ends... :)

Fred Steeves

27th October 2018, 02:31

Lines are being drawn ever which a way. Amongst friends and acquaintances, it really ought to be incidental. Folks seem to be losing that, these days, as the real is vs them is us against the uber rich bankster types.

Is that really what this is about? Just another level of "Us vs. Them"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDbeqj-1XOo

Wind

27th October 2018, 02:48

What rules the world?

http://youtu.be/Z4ovtNdvLjM

http://youtu.be/cpbbuaIA3Ds

Fred Steeves

27th October 2018, 02:56

What rules the world?

Well now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. What rules that, which rules the world?

Aragorn

27th October 2018, 03:46

What rules the world?

Well now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. What rules that, which rules the world?

Well, The Stupid™, of course! And it hurts! :p

Dreamtimer

27th October 2018, 13:12

The bankers were too big to fail.

It used to be that corporations had commitments to their communities. The laws were changed. Now they have commitment to only their shareholders, who do not live in the communities and who send most of their money out of the country.

Corporate tax breaks don't help America. They do help the shareholders and bankers.

Dreamtimer

27th October 2018, 13:22

Emil El Zapato

27th October 2018, 14:25

"I also started a thread on the children being taken from their families and lost track of. Again, crickets."

Gone but not forgotten DT...it hurts me to think about it...

PurpleLama

27th October 2018, 15:45

I started a Deep State thread not long ago. The response was crickets. It seems the so-called Deep State only matters in the right context, i.e. rationalizing Trump and his actions.

I also started a thread on the children being taken from their families and lost track of. Again, crickets.

It seems that child abuse only matters in certain contexts, like locking up Hillary. But when the Trump Administration is implicated, eyes are looking the other way.

To quote our Dear Leader:

Sad.

At least some of that may be attributed to the relatively small number of active participants on this board. Couple that with the thick skin needed to approach topics around human trafficking and even darker deeds which will poison the imagination of those so unprepared. As nap said, it hurts me to think about, but further, it makes me feel a deep, deep rage at those who would harm others (I say because I prefer not to evoke imagery of the evils being referenced).

Dreamtimer

30th October 2018, 12:56

Matt Drudge called out Fox News for their callous response to the synagogue shooting. How upside down things have become.

Emil El Zapato

30th October 2018, 18:15

If it's not me, it's ok...It must be Matt Drudge...

Emil El Zapato

30th October 2018, 23:13

Jerusalem Post:
JERUSALEM POST 50 MOST INFLUENTIAL JEWS: NUMBER 43 - MATT DRUDGE

Born on October 28, 1966, he is the son of Reform Jews from the suburbs of Washington DC. He has spoken little of his connection to Judaism other than to refer to himself as “a failed bar mitzva.”

Emil El Zapato

31st October 2018, 02:05

No surprise...Trump is mad! He is now proposing changing the constitution by executive order which is something expressly forbidden by constitutional law. He was snubbed by literally everyone, both sides of the fence, in Pittsburgh. He is just about done...The talking assh*les are still defending him, but they can afford to do that...People with congressional (constitutional) responsibility cannot do so. Unless, they want to be complicit in treason.

He knows he's going to fall after the midterms. He will be ascribed as guilty of a number of crimes. Theoretically, he is immune to prosecution, but impeachment is nearly inevitable.

Melidae

31st October 2018, 03:20

No surprise...Trump is mad! He is now proposing changing the constitution by executive order which is something expressly forbidden by constitutional law.

If you are referring to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.....

2278

If the above is too difficult to read, it is in larger print here...

2279.jpeg

Dreamtimer

31st October 2018, 13:11

Those are Senator Howard's words. It was his argument.

The Amendment itself says:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

We need growth and energy. Immigration brings that. It always has. Immigrants have not been the criminals they are being made out to be. They come in, work their asses off, do jobs others don't want, and send their kids to college.

Most of us come from immigrant stock. And most of our forbears did exactly what I just said.

We really shouldn't spit on their memory and hard work which helped us to have the lives we do.

PurpleLama

31st October 2018, 17:29

I think it is a bit premature to suggest Trump is going to try to change the constitution by executive order. He may make one setting policy around what is the original spirit of the 14th, the interpretation of which hinges around those words subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Because of it, two American citizens have a child in a foreign country, their child is still a citizen of the US and not of the country in which the birth takes place.

Melidae

31st October 2018, 18:29

Those are Senator Howard's words. It was his argument.

The Amendment itself says:

We need growth and energy. Immigration brings that. It always has. Immigrants have not been the criminals they are being made out to be. They come in, work their asses off, do jobs others don't want, and send their kids to college.

Most of us come from immigrant stock. And most of our forbears did exactly what I just said.

We really shouldn't spit on their memory and hard work which helped us to have the lives we do.

Yes, those are Senator Howard’s words. I could spam this thread with quotes of the majority of others at that time, but I will not. I posted it to reflect the intent behind the amendment. They did not feel it necessary to spell it all out…to them it was self-evident. If you would like, I can spam away to prove my point of intent.

Taken in isolation, I agree with your sentiments about immigration. But…there is a lot of history behind the idea of immigration…from where it started to its end purpose.

I suppose one could start with the original idea behind the great american experiment…was it possible to not only create a land made up of people of different nationalities and cultures, but to have them organize individual governments according to location and eventually agree to form one federal government to oversee them all. George Washington himself believed it was a success, and envisioned the same possibility for Europe. (And how many years passed before a European Union was put into place?)

Fast forward to Richard von Coudenhove-Kalergi (1894-1972).
Research on Kalergi has been interesting. He is one of the latest to be attacked by the alt-right. Finding objective information on him has been difficult, to say the least. The closest I’ve come is in an article by the Council of European Canadians, found here…https://www.eurocanadian.ca/2015/02/ideological-and-geopolitical-origins-of-eu-richard-von-coudenhove-kalergis-pan-europa.html

The article comes in Part 1 and Part 2…fairly brief, an easy read, and by the time it is finished the potential ‘end game’ is revealed.

The flames of white supremacy, racism, multiculturalism, etc. are being fanned for a reason….not only by those mentioned in the above article, but also by the Marxists for their own purposes…https://mises.org/wire/why-marxism-shifted-economics-culture

Almost as an aside, if you have the time, a good read is a work of fiction published in 1973 that has been called prophetic to our times. It is “Camp of the Saints” written by Jean Raspail. You can download a copy from here…https://archive.org/details/Camp-Of-The-Saints-By-Jean-Raspail “Quote from Wikipedia: *

The Camp of the Saints*(Le Camp des Saints) is a 1973 French novel by*Jean Raspail. The novel depicts a setting wherein*Third World*mass*immigration to France*and the*West*leads to the destruction of*Western civilization. Almost forty years after its initial publication, the novel returned to the bestseller list in 2011.”

I’ve tried to be as brief as possible in an attempt to illustrate how important it is to view as much of the whole ‘picture’ as possible. There is much much more to be found if you’re interested in doing the research.

Emil El Zapato

1st November 2018, 00:51

If you are referring to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.....

2278

If the above is too difficult to read, it is in larger print here...

2279.jpeg

:)

If we're going to be changing constitutional amendments, we should be thinking about the 2nd.

Read carefully, this is not culled from an obituary, as fitting as that might be...

"A recurring question in American constitutional law has been who is a citizen of the United States. One of the defining events in the years immediately prior to the beginning of the Civil War was the opinion (PDF, 261KB) of Chief Justice Roger Taney of the Supreme Court of the United States in Scott v. Stanford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 404-407 that African-Americans were not citizens of the United States.

After the conclusion of the Civil War the Congress took steps to address this ruling. In 1866 the Congress enacted, over the veto of President Andrew Johnson, the Civil Rights Act, 14 Stat. 27, ch. 31 (PDF, 97KB) which provided a definition of citizenship.

However, because there were concerns that the Civil Rights Act might be subsequently repealed or limited the Congress took steps to include similar language when it considered the draft of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Citizenship is defined in the first clause of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment as:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside.

The amendment's language was drafted by the Joint Committee on Reconstruction. The language defining citizenship was not in the introduced version of the amendment (H. J. Res. 127), but, was moved by Senator Howard of Michigan on May 30, 1866. It was adopted by the Senate that day and later adopted by the House. The Senate's consideration of the Howard language can be found in volume 36 of the Congressional Globe, pages 2890 to 2897. The debate is available through A Century of Lawmaking for a New Nation (PDF, 1.67MB).

The debate in the Senate was conducted in a somewhat acrimonious fashion and focused in part on the difference between the language in the definition of citizenship in the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the proposed amendment. Specific discussion reviewed the need to address the problem created by the Dred Scott decision, but also the possibility that the language of the Howard amendment would apply in a broader fashion to almost all children born in the United States.

The specific meaning of the language of the clause was not immediately obvious. In 1884 the Supreme Court of the United States in Elk v. Wilson, 112 U.S. 94, held that children born to members of Indian tribes governed by tribal legal systems were not U.S. citizens. In 1924 the Congress extended citizenship to all Indians by passing the Indian Citizenship Act, 43 Stat. 253, ch. 233.

In 1898 the Supreme Court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, ruled that a child born in the United States to non-citizen parents was a United States citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."

I might have overstated the inviolability of the amendment (though, I know conservatives claim to be strict constitutionalists, unless it is convenient to be otherwise)

but Trump is mad...and at some point a convicted felon.

Emil El Zapato

1st November 2018, 01:06

Here's a reality...

The U.S. is never going to be a 'white's only' nation...Statistical analysis of current demographics makes that a lost fantasy. Trump can implement all the hate policies he will. He can inspire all the conservative orgiastic hate fests that he will, but it ain't never gonna happen that way. Time well spent is not dwelling on this conspiracy theory, like all the other conspiracy theories draining humanity of its positive energy.

I guess if I was by nature a hateful human being I could get on board, but, alas and alack, I am not. What I witnessed was my dad, an immigrant with questionable credentials, yet a world word II veteran, a flag saluter, and all the rest, 'complain' about recent immigrants from the same part of the world that he came from. I would say that I love my father and that I admired his great character growing up, but I never understood what kind of human failing would make someone so blind as that.

Melidae

1st November 2018, 02:43

Read carefully, this is not culled from an obituary, as fitting as that might be...

If not "from an obituary" (what obituary???), then what is the source of this information? :)

In 1898 the Supreme Court in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, ruled that a child born in the United States to non-citizen parents was a United States citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."

In its 1898 ruling in the Wong Kim Ark case, the Supreme Court held that the children of noncitizens, when born in U.S. territory, are U.S. citizens by birth. However, the parents in question in the Wong Kim Ark case were legal immigrants, meaning the court did not directly address the status of children born to parents in the U.S. illegally. https://www.conservativedailynews.com/2018/10/birthright-citizenship-what-you-need-to-know/ (The whole article is worth a read. It actually may not reach the conclusion you expect it to reach, being a conservative website and all.) :tiphat:

Wouldn't it be interesting if (besides Harry Reid) videos of Bill Clinton, Diane Feinstein, Charles Schumer, Hilliary Clinton, and Barak Obama supporting strong borders could be found? Oh wait, https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-31/harry-reid-furiously-backpeddles-after-trump-tweets-1993-anchor-baby-mistake did just that at the end of the linked article.

Melidae

1st November 2018, 03:00

What I witnessed was my dad, an immigrant with questionable credentials, yet a world word II veteran, a flag saluter, and all the rest, 'complain' about recent immigrants from the same part of the world that he came from. I would say that I love my father and that I admired his great character growing up, but I never understood what kind of human failing would make someone so blind as that.

Sounds to me like your Father was a wonderful man who loved this country, appreciated living here and was proud to be an American (even with "questionable credentials")...enough so that he would fight, putting his life at risk, to protect this country. Perhaps he could see that the recent surge of immigrants did not come/are not coming here for the same reasons he did...and was trying to protect this country still, in his own way, from those who would do it harm. :hmm:

Emil El Zapato

1st November 2018, 03:02

Melidae

1st November 2018, 04:01

Seriously, Melidae,

you've got me on this one...A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart. I see where yours is and though it might sound funny, it always depresses me when I see 'hate' coming from the fairer sex. For some reason, I grew up thinking that the fundamental role of females in human society was to nurture, not seek destruction. To understand the inner human, to value the soul, heart, and spirit. It makes me lose faith in the higher potential of humanity when confronted with the absence of these fundamental values. You win this one with no argument from me.

At first I was going to disagree with you that "A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart." But you are right. It does come from the heart.

My children, my grandchildren are my heart. I would do anything to protect them. I would not invite a stranger into my home unless I knew who they were and what they wanted. Should that stranger barge their way in, the Mama Bear in me would do whatever is necessary to keep my family safe.

I'm not immune to an immigrants plight of seeking a better life here in America. After working in this country, paying his taxes and waiting for years, my son-in-law finally received his citizenship papers less than one year ago. He was so proud, and so were we of him. He wanted to be a part of this country and did so by legally applying for citizenship.

The people of the caravans do not want to integrate or to have a better life or become citizens. They are coming in illegally. The leaders have proclaimed they hate America. They are trying to break-in to this country by any means possible...like a stranger trying to break-in to my home. Knock on my door, introduce yourself, let me know why you're here and you may be welcomed. Barge in and I will defend myself and my family. What is so different when our country does that to protect its people?

Hate? No. There is only love or fear...nothing else. And I choose love.

Wind

1st November 2018, 06:10

Happy Halloween! ;)

http://youtu.be/HC0c1apsK_Q

Aragorn

1st November 2018, 07:25

Happy Halloween! ;)

http://youtu.be/HC0c1apsK_Q

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tOHfXsuCi2A/UAR-aWhhiHI/AAAAAAAADds/GEPBcd-ogfU/s1600/roflmfao.jpg

Dreamtimer

1st November 2018, 12:15

Me too. I especially like the ending. I took my dog in the car and drove around some neighborhoods where people were trick-or-treating/giving out candy. It was a beautiful evening. People sit in their driveways and light fire pits. It's a fun atmosphere.

The dog was quite excited about the kids in costume.

I miss taking my son to trick-or-treat.

Dreamtimer

1st November 2018, 12:37

Dreamtimer

1st November 2018, 13:22

Remember the dude from New York on the tractor running for senate?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=32&v=qqnoixTExn0

Emil El Zapato

1st November 2018, 13:39

At first I was going to disagree with you that "A person's stance on this particular issue comes from the heart." But you are right. It does come from the heart.

Of course...but don't you see that is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Those people pose no more threat to you than your next door neighbor. Statistically less. This perception stoked by some darker side of humanity has existed as long as the world. It is a vestige of primordial man that we are better rid of. But I know it won't happen, it can't...All mankind can do is wait until the vestige removes itself for lack of evolutionary viability. Perhaps at that point social consciousness would be elevated beyond animal instinct.

Happy Halloween! ;)

http://youtu.be/HC0c1apsK_Q

thanks for the outlet... :)

PurpleLama

1st November 2018, 17:22

So Republicans are now chanting "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!" "Lock (fill-in-the-blank) up!"

Anyone here understand the danger and wrongness of wanting to lock up political opposition?

It sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with an American Democratic Republic.

Where else have we seen that in recent history? What kinds of countries lock up political opponents?

Answer: not free ones.

What about the danger of having a political criminal class while laws are applies more severely the poorer you are?

The only such chant I am aware of was applied to Hillary Clinton. I can get behind that.

Melidae

2nd November 2018, 15:22

Of course...but don't you see that is the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Those people pose no more threat to you than your next door neighbor. Statistically less. This perception stoked by some darker side of humanity has existed as long as the world. It is a vestige of primordial man that we are better rid of. But I know it won't happen, it can't...All mankind can do is wait until the vestige removes itself for lack of evolutionary viability. Perhaps at that point social consciousness would be elevated beyond animal instinct.

I always start out looking for the good in people. The reality is that not all people are good or have good intentions.

It is naive to think otherwise.

Emil El Zapato

2nd November 2018, 18:12

I always start out looking for the good in people. The reality is that not all people are good or have good intentions.

It is naive to think otherwise.

So the next obvious question would be: When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had bad intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their bad intent on you?

Projection: "Those with good intent expect bad people to do good, Those with bad intent expect good people to do bad!"

Melidae

2nd November 2018, 20:10

So the next obvious question would be: When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had bad intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their bad intent on you?

Projection: "Those with good intent expect bad people to do good, Those with bad intent expect good people to do bad!"

Beware two-edged swords. When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had only good intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their good intent on you?

Do you trust your belief in their good intent enough to put your child at risk of rape or worse if you are wrong? Have you not seen any of the many videos out there of them throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, and carrying weapons? If their intent was to do good and work hard to become a part of this country, why not enter legally?

There is no one who is all good or all bad. No one. Judge others all you want. But, please, do not put words into my mouth or think you can analyze me correctly. You have not walked in my shoes...you have no clue.

Speck/plank...

PurpleLama

2nd November 2018, 21:34

Fred Steeves

2nd November 2018, 22:34

What kills me is that a group of the so-called caravan are getting ready to sue DOJ, DHS and the president for violating their constitutional rights.

You got a source for that somewhere up your sleeve amigo? I couldn't find any mention of it.

Last I checked, immigration policy according to the constitution is the purview of the executive branch, with the exception of the 14th.

Not quite.

The U.S. Congress — the legislative branch of the federal government of the United States — develops and passes legislation, which the president signs into law, and federal agencies (executive branch) implement legislation.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/who-does-what-us-immigration

PurpleLama

2nd November 2018, 23:08

For the first part, here is one of the many links from the search "caravan sues trump"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/02/migrants-in-caravan-sue-trump-and-administration-citing-constitution.html

For the second, I will get back to you. I dont recall exactly where I read it about a year or two ago, but I will find it.

Add:

It appears I was misremembering, and the argument was being made for the president doing his duty in executing laws which were constitutional in reference to immigration, not that the constitution was the direct source of the presidential duty i.e. his oath of office. Good call, Fred. :thup:

turiya

2nd November 2018, 23:32

What kills me is that a group of the so-called caravan are getting ready to sue DOJ, DHS and the president for violating their constitutional rights. Um, you aren't an American citizen, you don't exactly have those. Last I checked, immigration policy according to the constitution is the purview of the executive branch, with the exception of the 14th.

You may be referring to the so-called "Birthright Citizenship". Many think that this is protected by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution. It is not.

Trump: Birthright Citizenship For Illegal Immigrants Not Covered Under 14th Amendment (https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/31/trump-birthright-citizenship-14th-amendment/) -- Daily Caller

youtu.be/yjls1vzI3JE?t=211 (https://youtu.be/yjls1vzI3JE?t=211)

OPINION: Trump Is Right On Birthright Citizenship (https://dailycaller.com/2018/11/02/trump-right-birthright-citizenship/) -- Daily Caller

Aside from that. In order to have the protections of the U.S. Constitution, one has to be a citizen of the U.S. If you are a citizen of another country, then it is up to that country to protect the rights of their citizenry.

Emil El Zapato

3rd November 2018, 00:14

Beware two-edged swords. When did you decide those people in a caravan a thousand miles away had only good intentions? In other words, which one did you encounter that perpetrated their good intent on you?

Do you trust your belief in their good intent enough to put your child at risk of rape or worse if you are wrong? Have you not seen any of the many videos out there of them throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, and carrying weapons? If their intent was to do good and work hard to become a part of this country, why not enter legally?

There is no one who is all good or all bad. No one. Judge others all you want. But, please, do not put words into my mouth or think you can analyze me correctly. You have not walked in my shoes...you have no clue.

Speck/plank...

U really dont see the irony of that statement do u logic is not commutative. But it is revealing

Dreamtimer

3rd November 2018, 00:32

What about the danger of having a political criminal class while laws are applies more severely the poorer you are?

The only such chant I am aware of was applied to Hillary Clinton. I can get behind that.

They've been chanting it about several people now. Sometimes it's a 'him'. It's a mob mentality. It's not about critical thinking.

I can't think of a time in my life where the poorest haven't gotten the harshest applications of the law. That's been the way throughout my life and before. It's better now, a bit, and slowly, but it hasn't ended yet.

Dreamtimer

3rd November 2018, 00:42

Trump threw out his typical "they tell me" without ever indicating any real people. I doubt anyone told him he can change a Constitutional Amendment by Executive order. Well, maybe Stephen Miller, who doesn't know what he's talking about.

The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.

As Sandra Day O'Connor said so well, we amend the Constitution to expand rights, not to restrict them. That's why the proposed marriage act was so problematic.

Trying to redo the 14h Amendment is a devil's deal.

Fred Steeves

3rd November 2018, 02:31

The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.

As Sandra Day O'Connor said so well, we amend the Constitution to expand rights, not to restrict them. That's why the proposed marriage act was so problematic.

Trying to redo the 14h Amendment is a devil's deal.

How about the rest?

Emil El Zapato

3rd November 2018, 02:46

How about the rest?

oh Fred...which promotes the public good and which detracts from it. I am likely an American citizen because I was born here. Do 'I' want a psychopathic megalomaniac preaching to the lowest of us to take away my citizenshp...No, nor do I want to be shot in the back of the head because I've got brown skin. Is this really what we are? I don't say 'who' because this level of discourse isn't born of whos', it is born of whats'

turiya

3rd November 2018, 02:47

The 14th Amendment means what it says, and how it's been applied since its passing. It's dangerous and foolish to try to redo it based on alternate interpretations which go against American tradition.

Hey Dreamtimer

I don't think that you are understanding this 14th Amendment correctly, or better... what Trump's signing an EO would actually mean.

Trump is not signing an Executive to change the 14th Amendment. He is signing an Executive Order to have those that work for the government follow what the Fourteenth Amendment explicitly states. He's not changing the Amendment. The EO would only be a directive to enforce what already exists.

Trump: Birthright Citizenship For Illegal Immigrants Not Covered Under 14th Amendment (https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/31/trump-birthright-citizenship-14th-amendment/)

Trump might issue a future executive order to end birthright citizenship for illegal immigrants and some other non-citizens, adding “it was always told to me that you needed a constitutional amendment. Guess what? You don’t.”
Trump:
“We’re the only country in the world where a person comes in and has a baby, and the baby is essentially a citizen of the United States … with all of those benefits,” Trump continued.
Birthright citizenship stems from the 14th Amendment of the Constitution which states that “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
Existing judicial precedent, however, only clarifies that children of lawful permanent residents in the U.S. qualify for citizenship with no ruling on the children of illegal immigrants or temporary residents. Any executive order by Trump would only be able to legally target these [illegal] immigrant populations. - Daily Caller

Fred Steeves

3rd November 2018, 03:18

For the first part, here is one of the many links from the search "caravan sues trump"

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/02/migrants-in-caravan-sue-trump-and-administration-citing-constitution.html

Okay, thanks.

I see extreme political theatre not only in this case of only 6 out of thousands filing a ridiculous lawsuit, but the whole caravan thing in general. And apparently now new ones forming behind it...

Bright shiny object ring a bell?

As an aside, and aimed at the general audience at large: why are these countries so fucked up to begin with? America's most decorated soldier Major General Smedley Butler may offer some key insights:

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.
― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket: The Antiwar Classic by America's Most Decorated Soldier

Dreamtimer

12th November 2018, 12:10

This thread has been cleaned up of ad hominem and propaganda and is now re-opened. Further posting of propaganda may result in being banned from the thread.

Dreamtimer

12th November 2018, 21:58

Matt Drudge called out Fox News for their callous response to the synagogue shooting. How upside down things have become.

This is weird...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dr05ZJ5UcAERsSa.jpg

Dreamtimer

13th November 2018, 09:42

I thought maybe something would pop op in the Emporium...

Stan Lee passed away yesterday. He wrote the following when I was a tyke. It holds true today, and is most applicable.

https://images.dailykos.com/images/611238/story_image/Stan_Lee.png?1542082031

Elen

13th November 2018, 10:56

:love::h5:

Wind

13th November 2018, 11:26

Rest in peace, Stan. I too loved your comic book heroes...

Maggie

13th November 2018, 23:51

Not sure where to place this bit. Dutchsinse has been following the relationship between old volcanic fields and earthquakes and possible fires in California. That makes sense to me.

I think that this article form SOTT is interesting in light of that hypothesis. I am quite concerned about the way superficial concerns have been preventing humans from looking at systems that will support us in the wake of disasters that I am thinking will continue. The evidence is that unstable (at best) is now the new normal.

I read on SOTT too that men are more interested in systems and women in people. Then there needs to be a hybrid of those who are interested in people therefore are interested in systems that support life.

https://www.sott.net/article/400439-Bubbling-pool-of-mud-is-on-the-move-in-California-and-no-one-knows-why

When it comes to matters of geology and rumbling earth in California, the San Andreas Fault is usually the star of the show. But this time around, the area near the infamous fault has caught people's attention due to a mysterious pot of bubbling mud.

Refusing to stay in place, a roiling mass of carbon dioxide and slurry-like soil is migrating across the state at a pace of 20 feet a year. So far, it's carved a 24,000-square-foot basin out of the earth, and it's set to continue its crusade until whatever's driving it dies out. Scientists currently have no real idea why it's moving or if it can be stopped.

So, what do we know about it?

This curiosity appeared in the Salton Trough, an area of California that's being stretched apart by a tectonic battle between the forces of the San Andreas Fault and the East Pacific Rise, a mid-ocean ridge. This unique environment is where the Colorado River dumps plenty of its sediment, which gets packed up so that the lower layers a few miles down get heated up and squashed a little.

This low-grade metamorphic action transforms the sediment into new rock types, and in the process, CO2 gets emitted. Escaping up to the soggy surface through pre-existing cracks and faults, this gas fuels features known as mud pots or-if they're protruding from the ground-mud volcanoes.

California creepin'

Mud pots and volcanoes are common but normally stationary objects. That's why scientists sat up and took notice when this mud pot began to move sometime between 2015 and 2016.

Currently located just north of Niland, the mud pot is moving toward Union Pacific Railroad tracks and giving engineers there a headache. A well dug to depressurize the source of the gas had no effect. Steel walls driven 80 feet into the ground were also nonchalantly circumvented; the mud pot simply ducked under them and continued its freakishly linear path of destruction.

"No one has seen a moving mud pot before," says David Lynch, a consulting physicist who has long studied the area's geothermal features. Mud pots and mud volcanoes also generally don't emit much water, but this one is extremely vigorous, producing somewhere around 40,000 gallons of water a day. Lynch and other experts have taken to calling it a "mud spring."

So, why is it moving? "That is the big question, and I don't know the answer," Lynch says. It isn't accelerating, as some news outlets have reported, and it certainly didn't move 60 feet in a single day. Contrary to a handful of reports, there is no link between seismic changes in the area and the mud pot's road show.

"This mud spring's movement has no relation whatsoever to any variation in seismicity," says Ken Hudnut, a research geophysicist working with the U.S. Geological Survey. "The two are unrelated." The San Andreas Fault is one of the most heavily monitored seismic zones on the planet, he adds, so people can rest assured that the muddy monster isn't in any way a harbinger of a massive earthquake. (IF science don't know what drives it how is that any conclusions may be drawn?)

Maggie

14th November 2018, 23:48

Dreamtimer

15th November 2018, 14:26

Almost 50% of the electorate voted in November. That's the largest percentage in a century.

Wind

15th November 2018, 19:30

I don't know if this is the right place, but over a week ago I went to see Jordan Peterson with my brother when he came touring here in Helsinki, I got the ticket back in July and the event was sold out in minutes. I wouldn't call myself a fanboy, but I do admire him in many ways. It was interesting to see and hear him speaking live, he had all the mannerisms as he has in his Youtube lectures. Most of the audience was young males and in the end he even got a standing ovation, I can tell you that's quite a rare thing in Finland. It was well worth the money, the cheaper ticket must have cost some 30 euros.

I was just sitting so far away in the audience that I could barely see him, but that was fine too. The media has been writing a lot about him here too recently and "wondering" why he is so popular, they just don't seem to get it. It's not a cult, but he sure is a very captivating speaker and people are thirsty for meaning & deep philosophical discussions. He is the right man in the right place at the right time. What he says might be controversial, but I feel that he truly cares about (all) people and not just his "own kind".

Emil El Zapato

20th November 2018, 14:14

This is what I'm talkin' 'bout.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJkvUW5j0o

Emil El Zapato

21st November 2018, 13:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJYdZk30SG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqHkHQLhA-c

Emil El Zapato

21st November 2018, 13:42

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECvqW6gxqbo

Emil El Zapato

21st November 2018, 23:39

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCYMBg4kkbs

Dreamtimer

22nd November 2018, 14:51

Ow!

Emil El Zapato

22nd November 2018, 16:13

For sci-fi fans: I just read the 1st chapter of Peter Hamilton's The Abyss Beyond Dreams. I can't even begin to do it justice with my description skills. This is weird and brilliantly bizarre hard science fiction. I highly recommend it.

NAP

Dreamtimer

23rd November 2018, 11:53

Sounds interesting. :eyebrows:

Emil El Zapato

26th November 2018, 00:12

It looks like all hell is breaking loose on the border. My older brother warned me about 30 years ago to not go near the border because it was dangerous (he's hyper conservative). It looks like he was right. Is this a dream come true? The early scuttlebutt is that the Mexican side of the border has arrested some people for spreading 'fake news' regarding getting across the border. Apparently, that started the mob rush. 2 people were slightly hurt. Doesn't say whether or not any of the bum rushers were arrested. Seems reasonable that they would be though. What they did constitutes a serious breach of understood protocol. They're likely lucky to be alive. Trump is probably at Mar-El-Lago whacking off since his wife won't sleep with him. She has some sense of decency it would seem...however deeply hidden.

Dreamtimer

26th November 2018, 00:28

In America, your Constitutional rights are quite nebulous within 100 miles of the border. You could be held without charges or worse. After 9/11 Americans lost all kinds of rights.

And now norms are being eroded.

Slippery slope is probably way too mild a term.

Elen

26th November 2018, 07:24

After 9/11 Americans lost all kinds of rights. And now norms are being eroded.

Include the rest of the world into that equation, please. :watch:

Chris

26th November 2018, 07:54

Aragorn

26th November 2018, 12:58

Well, America is still partially free and there is always a chance that some lost freedoms can be restored. I'm far more worried about China right now. They are seriously backtracking and going back to good ol' Maoist days. The social credit score thing and the spy chips they surreptitiously install into every Chinese-made product is what really worries me, not to mention what they are doing in Uigurstan and Tibet.

Well, they've gotten very good at that after all the experience they've gained from doing that very same thing for (independently) the CIA and the NSA since "9/11". ;)

My brother recently bought a chinese-made smartphone (Huawei), which is otherwise excellent, but he did notice, that every time he casually mentions something in a conversation (and who doesn't have their phone on them at all times in this day and age?), he starts getting targeted ads for said product shortly thereafter. This is without him even searching for it online, just talking about it does the trick.

I've heard this before, and if it isn't some kind of synchronicity event coming from the universe itself — which is entirely possible, mind you! — then it's probably because of something built into the Android operating system. And the company that develops Android is now part of Google.

Of all the corporations wanting to put their (existing or potential) customers under surveillance — and there are quite a few — Google is undoubtedly the worst offender. And what's really disturbing is that they don't even see this as the malicious intrusion into our privacy that it is. All you need to do, if you use either the Chrome or Chromium web browsers — both of which are developed by Google, with the former being proprietary and the latter being Free & Open Source Software — is look at the settings and how they are explained, along with the warning messages you get when you enable or disable some of those settings.

I'll give you an example, applicable to both Chrome and Chromium. If you enable the "Do not track me" functionality — which sends a special request to websites to not track your surfing behavior by way of special tracking cookies — then you get a warning message that this is a bad idea, because then "Websites will not be able to offer you personalized ads."

I mean, WTF? What gives those idiots the idea that I would even want to see ads in the first place? That's why most of us internet denizens install an ad blocker in our browsers from the moment we start using them. But Google makes a serious amount of money from selling ads, as well as from selling your private data. Not to the governments — oh no, like all the other tech giants, they want you to believe that they'll protect you against government surveillance — but to their corporate partners.

But wait, it's not over yet. It gets worse. You see, even though Google does offer you to enable the "Do not track me" functionality in both Chrome and Chromium, and likewise for Mozilla, the company that develops the Firefox browser and the Thunderbird email and Usenet client, neither Google nor Mozilla respect the "Do not track me" request themselves, and they both have parts of their telemetry — i.e. the "phoning home" in the background with both data and metadata regarding your surfing behavior — switched on by default. You have to explicitly disable that in your settings — and at least for now, they do still have to offer you that option because of the very strict European privacy regulations. But how many people bother going through all of their settings before they begin surfing?

My own much older google smartphone also had this feature (as part of google now), but at least you can switch it off in the settings, which I did. However, the current crop of "always on" tech products are seriously creepy in this respect and they don't even tell their customers that they're doing it. China is the worst offender, but other tech manufacturers (such as Samsung and LG) are also doing it.

I hear ya, Brother. We're firmly headed toward a cyberpunk dystopia — if we're not there already. :wry:

Dreamtimer

26th November 2018, 14:31

It's weird that nobody is talking about how many of the new crop of Congress Critters got in without any corporate money. All small donations. Which means they're answerable to their communities and not the big money corporate PACs.

So weird.

Could it be because they're mostly liberals? Could that have anything to do with it?

I mean...they're doing exactly what the alternative community should be praising to high heaven.

So weird.

What I see instead is posts talking about Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, her strange long fingers, and is she part demon?

I guess that gets more clicks.

Emil El Zapato

8th December 2018, 13:51

I saw an excellent movie last night...I recommend it...

"President Strangelove or How I learned to stop worrying and love the Wall!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gXY3kuDvSU

Dreamtimer

8th December 2018, 16:22

Is it online? Is it about coming to love Big Brother? Is it double-plus good?

I've missed this thread. I'm gonna find something good to post here. :eyebrows::ninja:: Sherlock::goodbad:

Dreamtimer

9th December 2018, 09:22

Well well well. Aamon Bundy took a stance for principal and now he's suddenly a shill for Soros.

Quelle surprise!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bued0OJ8Vw

Emil El Zapato

9th December 2018, 14:04

Now there is the definition of 'Anarchists' ... Long Live Robert Heinlein...

Fred Steeves

9th December 2018, 14:49

Russian collusion: Big fat nothing burger just like many of us thought all along?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq_-mxHx1UA

Emil El Zapato

9th December 2018, 17:48

NothingBurger? Leaking? - Somebody...meaning Dore and his talking head there aren't reading between the lines very well. To their credit actually...facts only...they did gloss over the 'redacted' part pretty quickly...There's the meat...in the redaction. My bet: they will present ample evidence for collusion...it will be split, of course, between the right and the left on how it is perceived. The right will do the usual 'anything for power' and pretend none of it ever happened. The lingering inescapable facts are the campaign violations which aren't 'simple' violations, they are egregious. Again, it won't be enough for the right to take any action...Bottom line...he will be impeached as a result of his overal scumbagness and incompetency. Most sensible people will recognize 'collusion' when they see it. Oh, we can't forget 'obstruction of justice'...that one is pretty much a done deal, also.

Dreamtimer

10th December 2018, 13:02

Who has heard of Thucydides? We're in a dance with China and N. Korea could be a catalyst...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XewnyUJgyA4

As an aside, there's plenty of evidence of conspiracy which is where collusion matters. Also obstruction of justice.

When people commit crimes openly they're still crimes. When people work to inure us to the shock of their blatant criminality, they're still criminals.

Republicans supported Nixon to nearly the bitter end.

And Agnew used the witch hunt language throughout.

Like you said, Fred, it's the same old thing all over again. They're still criminals. Just of the mob type.

Kathy

10th December 2018, 16:42

As an aside, there's plenty of evidence of conspiracy which is where collusion matters. Also obstruction of justice.

When people commit crimes openly they're still crimes. When people work to inure us to the shock of their blatant criminality, they're still criminals.

Republicans supported Nixon to nearly the bitter end.

And Agnew used the witch hunt language throughout.

Like you said, Fred, it's the same old thing all over again. They're still criminals. Just of the mob type.

No-one can argue with this!

Dreamtimer

10th December 2018, 20:00

More on Ammon Bundy (https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/salvadorhernandez/ammon-bundy-helped-bolster-the-militia-movement-now-hes).

The unequivocal support for the president by his followers was a big concern, Bundy said, and a factor in his decision to step away from the movement.

"Those on the right have been so fanatically loyal to him that any word of opposition to bring out light in what he might be doing that is incorrect draws hate," Bundy said.

He then took it a step further, comparing the support of Trump's base to that of Adolf Hitler's.

"The time we find ourselves in now that is closest found in history is Germany in the 1930s, and they had a leader that was loved, and it was the same kind of following," he said. "I don't want to say there is that extreme similarity, but it very well could go that way, and people just give up their thinking, their rights, and they give up their government because they were so willing to follow him."

Other militia leaders who had previously rallied to Bundy's side have called him in recent days to privately offer support and protection, he said, after his family received threats over the Facebook video. Some, Bundy said, told him they agreed with his views critical of Trump but did not want to air their opinions publicly for fear of facing a similar backlash.

donk

11th December 2018, 04:32

BOOoOOO!!!!

Re-open the Q thread!!!

Dreamtimer

11th December 2018, 11:28

Why do you want it open, donk?

I'm just curious.

donk

11th December 2018, 12:18

Being a little dramatic, but I would like to get that perspective/mindset contained in one place

I understand if y’all don’t want to, I just certainly hate looking other places for it

Emil El Zapato

11th December 2018, 12:33

Fred Steeves

11th December 2018, 13:12

Chris

11th December 2018, 13:30

Thank God those threads were shut down...that bonehead sh*t was really bugging me. Those are not 'normal' people, they are the dregs of a subculture that have not even the barest sense of reality! But my Lord they are so special. lol! To listen to their unrighteous indignation is to listen and SEE the definition of personality disorder.

It is why even professional psychologists can't get through to people like that, they are so immersed in themselves that nothing else permeates. Even on Bizarro Earth there was a phantom zone that misanthropes could be projected to...usually for eternity.

Though it pained me to do so...I even put Aianawa's designated hate thread on ignore (Park Here) but Matt Kahn is still rocking the show...but now that I think about I'm wondering about the channel thread...Heaven Forbid, Aianawa has gone to the dark side forever.

I don't entirely disagree, but we must keep a balance between free speech and censoring what amounts to rabble-rousing and hate-speech. I myself was also somewhat sympathetic towards the alt-right, before Trump and Brexit made that intellectual position untenable. I moved on, but many people haven't and you can't blame them for being a bit slow to realise how reality has shifted around them.

I think we should accept that people absorb information and realise truths at a very different pace. I'm sure a lot of the alt-right types will be deeply embarrassed about the views they used to hold and the people they used to support ten years from now. Some people will probably never see the truth about these things and that may not be their fault entirely.

There are dark forces at work in the background and they employ brainwashing and mind control to achieve their aims. It is hardly the fault of the brainwashed and mind controlled that they think and see the world the way they do. This applies to religious people as well, BTW. Also, this isn't exclusive to the right, the left is very good at this too, if you'd heard about a little thing called communism...

donk

11th December 2018, 13:33

Being a little dramatic, but I would like to get that perspective/mindset contained in one place

I understand if y’all don’t want to, I just certainly hate looking other places for it

I mean, I understand not wanting this forum to be associated with the ideas and producers of such “information”, but it’s practically impossible and possible morally problematic to quash it entirely.

Whether you’re part of this EXTREMELY tiny but very loud crowd that thinks there’s wisdom or value (besides self incrimination and revelation of character) to Trump’s behavior and communication...or those of us who believe he is who he shows himself to be and his tweets are free association and no where near coded messages, it can’t hurt to see how it gets twisted. The mental acrobatics required to keep the narrative going (I would say coherent but I can say that’s true) are at a level never before seen on this arena...and we’ve been through 8 years of the PNAC/Iran-Contra criminals pulling Dim Dubya’s strings

So the thread is called “park it here”...why not just use it as that one “free speech zone”, and slide the new (even semi-) related threads right on over. It doesn’t need to have a flow, just let them post and keep it contained. Hopefully it will allow for a little conversation, I do enjoy get insight on what people with such a completely different mindset think...and they get whatever they get out of spreading the “drops” and interpretations of what the “Don” REALLY meant when he spews words on twitter and speeches

The way things are going for him, Donny is gonna have to go to Q to ‘splain himself if it keeps going the way it has. You can only double down on lies and projections so long before you started sounding as unhinged as that (teeny tiny) crowd

Emil El Zapato

11th December 2018, 13:50

Hate speech and propaganda ... here we go again... are not free... If one wants to discuss unhappy topics with a modicum of decency, I might not like it but I'm all for it. I will discuss...

What goes on here is akin to Fascist propaganda...Honestly Fred, does that truly fit in to your definition of 'FREE speech'. Judgment man, judgment...If we abandon basic social principles then we are no longer anything worth preserving, we are animals...base Darwinistic animals...For God's sake, use the sense God gave you, man.

Do we grant the right to the raving lunatic to stand in the middle of a road and scream "The End is Nigh!" or to give a podium to those that would proselytize about the descendants of King whoever are out to get him.

Do we not draw lines between right and wrong. This is my problem...that some people just don't seem to understand the meaning of free speech AND that I find offensive, not my posts. Fred, you find my posts offensive? Explain why and how I am violating the basic principles of common decency and I will be glad to cease and desist in hopes that you will find me less offensive. But make sure that any complaints that you level at me due to my posts start with the dictate that what I posted is not true or even debatable. If you find them debatable then let's debate and get to the 'real' truth.

As for you, all I've ever done is ask questions that you seem unwilling to answer or even consider...while that may not be offensive it is something quite annoying when you b*tch...if you can't hang just admit it and move on to the next person.

Fred Steeves

11th December 2018, 14:53

I meant just that one post Adam, not all of your posts. Sorry for the somewhat sloppy way I put that, as I can see how it can also be taken the way you took it.

Emil El Zapato

12th December 2018, 01:59

apologies...Fred, I think you are a very decent human being. I admit I post in extreme language sometimes...just for maximum impact. But in truth, I look for balance...we need balance...If there were equivalent Left wing propagandists and liars and rabble rousers regurgitating all over this forum I might not find it as motivating to counter but I would. There is a staunch lefty that I work with...We actually agree on most things but at the heart of it we want different outcomes...I want peace and harmony, he wants blood...Trump's blood...I'd be satisfied that people see Trump for what he is and what he stands for and reject it (like you have actually). I am always coming down on him about his 'negative' attitude. He doesn't hear a word I say.

Aianawa

12th December 2018, 02:38

Indeed balance is important, such was the words n oral wisdoms suppressed back in time that still today we seek the truth n knowing of yesteryear.

Indeed I do not read certain threads here, not interested n not wishing to annoy those interested plus usually they wish no debate and have said so, spose that was the imporatance for myself creating another thread to talk about, debate or despise, hoping the Park Here thread would be respected.

I have let a Mod know that I did not really create the Q thread entirely for myself but for someone to take it over, which happened in time.

Aragorn

12th December 2018, 03:53

Indeed I do not read certain threads here, not interested n not wishing to annoy those interested plus usually they wish no debate and have said so, spose that was the imporatance for myself creating another thread to talk about, debate or despise, hoping the Park Here thread would be respected.

I have let a Mod know that I did not really create the Q thread entirely for myself but for someone to take it over, which happened in time.

Just for the record, the staff has no objections against the QAnon material being posted here in and of itself.

All staff members are firmly convinced that the QAnon phenomenon is nothing but a live-action role-playing game, instigated by Trump fans from within the ICT sector, who have themselves now pushed their little game too far to still back out of it, and who have themselves become addicted to the cult they've created. All honest research, as well as a confession by a former member of this QAnon team, have so far confirmed that this is what's really playing out — pun not intended — behind this phenomenon.

But by the same token, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and if the pertinent posts had been limited to only the raw QAnon updates, then there wouldn't have been any problem. But that was definitely not the case here. The material was being presented...:

in an eye-catching billboard style, with loud, shouting fonts and colors;
accompanied by quoted articles — with many photos and videos — from exclusively far-right and alt-right sources; and
with an unmistakable undertone of political propaganda.

There is a distinct difference between information and propaganda, and the way that the material was being presented here was cultish propaganda, not information.

Furthermore — and in spite of all of turiya's disclaimers — the alt-right vantage is inseparable from xenophobia, intolerance, prejudice and hate speech. And these traits were not just to be found within the propaganda on the QAnon thread, but were also spreading to other threads here on the forum, and even formed the very basis of the "The Invasion" thread — as some have already said, the name of that thread was in itself enough of a statement of intolerance and prejudice. And to then make it all even worse, this alt-right vantage also began manifesting itself in the social behavior of certain members, both toward the staff and toward other members. In fact, all warnings from the staff toward the perpetrators of this propaganda were being ignored and even tacitly belittled.

All of the above is why those threads were closed. This kind of situation is extremely unhealthy on any forum, plus that — as we've already had to state ad nauseam in this matter — the staff of The One Truth will not allow this forum to be abused for any kind of propaganda, least of all propaganda of the US American political far-right persuasion.

Aianawa

12th December 2018, 07:37

My gosh, because your rite does not make it rite

Just for the record, the staff has no objections against the QAnon material being posted here in and of itself.

All staff members are firmly convinced that the QAnon phenomenon is nothing but a live-action role-playing game, instigated by Trump fans from within the ICT sector, who have themselves now pushed their little game too far to still back out of it, and who have themselves become addicted to the cult they've created. All honest research, as well as a confession by a former member of this QAnon team, have so far confirmed that this is what's really playing out — pun not intended — behind this phenomenon.

But by the same token, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and if the pertinent posts had been limited to only the raw QAnon updates, then there wouldn't have been any problem. But that was definitely not the case here. The material was being presented...:

in an eye-catching billboard style, with loud, shouting fonts and colors;
accompanied by quoted articles — with many photos and videos — from exclusively far-right and alt-right sources; and
with an unmistakable undertone of political propaganda.

There is a distinct difference between information and propaganda, and the way that the material was being presented here was cultish propaganda, not information.

Furthermore — and in spite of all of turiya's disclaimers — the alt-right vantage is inseparable from xenophobia, intolerance, prejudice and hate speech. And these traits were not just to be found within the propaganda on the QAnon thread, but were also spreading to other threads here on the forum, and even formed the very basis of the "The Invasion" thread — as some have already said, the name of that thread was in itself enough of a statement of intolerance and prejudice. And to then make it all even worse, this alt-right vantage also began manifesting itself in the social behavior of certain members, both toward the staff and toward other members. In fact, all warnings from the staff toward the perpetrators of this propaganda were being ignored and even tacitly belittled.

All of the above is why those threads were closed. This kind of situation is extremely unhealthy on any forum, plus that — as we've already had to state ad nauseam in this matter — the staff of The One Truth will not allow this forum to be abused for any kind of propaganda, least of all propaganda of the US American political far-right persuasion.

Aragorn

12th December 2018, 08:19

Just for the record, the staff has no objections against the QAnon material being posted here in and of itself.

All staff members are firmly convinced that the QAnon phenomenon is nothing but a live-action role-playing game, instigated by Trump fans from within the ICT sector, who have themselves now pushed their little game too far to still back out of it, and who have themselves become addicted to the cult they've created. All honest research, as well as a confession by a former member of this QAnon team, have so far confirmed that this is what's really playing out — pun not intended — behind this phenomenon.

But by the same token, everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and if the pertinent posts had been limited to only the raw QAnon updates, then there wouldn't have been any problem. But that was definitely not the case here. The material was being presented...:

in an eye-catching billboard style, with loud, shouting fonts and colors;
accompanied by quoted articles — with many photos and videos — from exclusively far-right and alt-right sources; and
with an unmistakable undertone of political propaganda.

There is a distinct difference between information and propaganda, and the way that the material was being presented here was cultish propaganda, not information.

Furthermore — and in spite of all of turiya's disclaimers — the alt-right vantage is inseparable from xenophobia, intolerance, prejudice and hate speech. And these traits were not just to be found within the propaganda on the QAnon thread, but were also spreading to other threads here on the forum, and even formed the very basis of the "The Invasion" thread — as some have already said, the name of that thread was in itself enough of a statement of intolerance and prejudice. And to then make it all even worse, this alt-right vantage also began manifesting itself in the social behavior of certain members, both toward the staff and toward other members. In fact, all warnings from the staff toward the perpetrators of this propaganda were being ignored and even tacitly belittled.

All of the above is why those threads were closed. This kind of situation is extremely unhealthy on any forum, plus that — as we've already had to state ad nauseam in this matter — the staff of The One Truth will not allow this forum to be abused for any kind of propaganda, least of all propaganda of the US American political far-right persuasion.

My gosh, because your rite does not make it rite

Oh yes, it most certainly does. You may have fallen for that QAnon LARP — and that is your prerogative — but you are not the one bearing responsibility for this forum, whether in terms of maintaining the peace around here or whether in terms of what this forum represents. It is our job as staff members to watch over this forum, and we are not going to sacrifice this green Shire just so a few members would be able to get their fix of Sauron's poison.

If you want to stay apprised of QAnon updates, then you can either log on at 8Chan — where they hang out — or go to that site where all of the QAnon messagess can be found, as per the link that turiya included in all of his posts. And if you want to copy that stuff and post it here, then be my guest. But then post only the QAnon messages — preferably without using elephant-sized fonts and/or obnoxious colors — and not the alt-right propaganda from the likes of Zero Hedge or from bigoted YouTubers.

I've said what I needed to say on this matter, and I don't think I could possibly have worded it any clearer than I already have.

:wiz:

Dreamtimer

12th December 2018, 15:00

Chris

12th December 2018, 15:12

The false parallels with the left are where I start to laugh, or perhaps cry. Both-siderism is very unhealthy.

Not only has there not been anything parallel here from the left, there simply isn't anything parallel. There is no left-wing equivalent of the Q stuff.

Take a look at Ammon Bundy.

The moment he looks at the migrants with compassion he's called a Soros shill. The knee-jerk reaction against him is sad but not surprising. It's sad because those who are part of his tribe, his family, his church, turned against him on a dime.

What does that say about their beliefs?

No-one has been stopped from consuming as much Q as they want. This just isn't the right platform.

That may be true in a US context, since the US does not have a political left to speak of. Hillary Clinton would be considered far-right in Europe on most issues. Bernie Sanders is centre-Left at best. Viktor Orban is to the left of him on most issues. However, there are plenty of places in the world where the Left engages in the same sort of paranoia and baseless (although sometimes well-founded) conspiracy theories about US and EU imperialists. The Corbynistas in the UK would certainly qualify. Then there are the Chavistas in Venezuela the Maoists in China, Nepal, India, the communists in Cuba and North Korea etc…

Fred Steeves

12th December 2018, 16:51

Dreamtimer

12th December 2018, 21:04

It's a matter of scale. Like the neighborhood analogy. The guy with a pistol is nowhere near the same kind of threat as the guy with an arsenal. Calling them the same is misleading and that's just the start.

The left in America has nothing like the history/infrastructure of the right. It's comparing apples and garlic.

The right likes to boast about this on a regular basis.

Emil El Zapato

13th December 2018, 01:18

Emil El Zapato

13th December 2018, 01:23

PwFzOW2tZf0

See, Fred...the WSJ (lame-stream media) hires actors to stage fake leftist violence.

Milo is a serious jackass (no joke) but violence has always been the sole path to social power for the masses of the left and there are many reasons for it...but this kind of thing is not really representative (we've seen the violence comparisons between the left and the right). More likely there were 3 or 4 social forkups (bored rich kids) that wanted some action and found a worthwhile (yes worthwhile) outlet. In other words, same old same old.

Fred Steeves

13th December 2018, 03:25

That may be true in a US context, since the US does not have a political left to speak of. Hillary Clinton would be considered far-right in Europe on most issues. Bernie Sanders is centre-Left at best. Viktor Orban is to the left of him on most issues. However, there are plenty of places in the world where the Left engages in the same sort of paranoia and baseless (although sometimes well-founded) conspiracy theories about US and EU imperialists. The Corbynistas in the UK would certainly qualify. Then there are the Chavistas in Venezuela the Maoists in China, Nepal, India, the communists in Cuba and North Korea etc…

Problem with that perspective though...is for the most part they might be identified or self-identify as leftists but they aren't. They are in it for themselves and are unabashed authoritarians. Very different animals.

This is making excuses for all leftist misbehavior, and communism to boot. If the above example were right wing oriented, you would be all over it and attacking like stink on shit.

See, Fred...the WSJ (lame-stream media) hires actors to stage fake leftist violence.

When it's righties doing it they're out of control and taking over the world; when it's lefties doing it it's hired actors or some other tribal excuse.

The false parallels with the left are where I start to laugh, or perhaps cry. Both-siderism is very unhealthy.

Not only has there not been anything parallel here from the left, there simply isn't anything parallel.

PwFzOW2tZf0

It's a matter of scale. Like the neighborhood analogy. The guy with a pistol is nowhere near the same kind of threat as the guy with an arsenal. Calling them the same is misleading and that's just the start.

The left in America has nothing like the history/infrastructure of the right. It's comparing apples and garlic.

So far the democrats historical involvement with the KKK doesn't count, the Bernie Sanders fan who tried to single handedly murder the entire republican membership of congress with a rifle during baseball practice doesn't count, and Antifa doesn't count: Did the Weather Underground, with actual exploded bombs count?

On January 29, 1975, an explosion rocked the headquarters of the U.S. State Department in Washington, D.C. No one was hurt, but the damage was extensive, impacting 20 offices on three separate floors. Hours later, another bomb was found at a military induction center in Oakland, California, and safely detonated.

A domestic terrorist group called the Weather Underground claimed responsibility for both bombs. Originally called the Weatherman or the Weathermen, a name taken from a line in a Bob Dylan song, the Weather Underground was a small, violent offshoot of Students for a Democratic Society, or SDS, a group created in the turbulent ‘60s to promote social change.

When SDS collapsed in 1969, the Weather Underground stepped forward, inspired by communist ideologies and embracing violence and crime as a way to protest the Vietnam War, racism, and other left-wing aims. “Our intention is to disrupt the empire ... to incapacitate it, to put pressure on the cracks,” claimed the group’s 1974 manifesto, Prairie Fire.

By the next year, the group had claimed credit for 25 bombings—including the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon, the California Attorney General’s office, and a New York City police station.
https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/weather-underground-bombings

Aianawa

13th December 2018, 04:06

Other members have said this, if you are left you are not one so who won.
If you are rite you are not one so who won.
There is onely one middle.

Dreamtimer

13th December 2018, 13:25

Elen

13th December 2018, 13:32

Emil El Zapato

13th December 2018, 17:58

you can leave out the Weather Underground because they were shooting blanks and bombing empty buildings...nice people, really.

Fred Steeves

13th December 2018, 22:20

There is all of us, together. That's what there is.

The left right divide is: a) stupid, b) unnecessary, c) a distraction.

Divided We Fall.

The more the left/right paradigm is pushed, the weaker we become as a nation.

Now we're talking! :chrs:

you can leave out the Weather Underground because they were shooting blanks and bombing empty buildings...nice people, really.

That *was* rather nice of them to give evacuation warnings before their bombings. Should the cards play out that one day a fringe group needed to blow my house up to further their aims, I hope they would either give me a courtesy warning as well, or at least wait until I head off to work.

Perhaps we could hoist a beer or two after, discuss what favorable ways the political winds may shift as a result.

Seriously though, it's interesting that Saul Alinsky penned his "Rules for Radicals" in 1971 because he thought relentless agitation to be more effective than the violent tactics he was seeing.

Dreamtimer

14th December 2018, 01:00

Thanks, Fred. And...I have said that several times before, in case you didn't see.

Fred Steeves

14th December 2018, 02:46

Thanks, Fred. And...I have said that several times before, in case you didn't see.

Of course I have noticed DT, just haven't seen it actually demonstrated for any length of time yet.

Dreamtimer

14th December 2018, 13:54

It would help if you don't read into what I say.

Such as assuming I expect some group to sweep in and save the day.

I make observations and speculate, that doesn't mean the things I speculate are necessarily my beliefs.

Dreamtimer

14th December 2018, 14:32

I might personally think that the Kochs, the Mercers, Adelson, etc., are awesome. I might have massive portraits of them in my foyer.

That doesn't change the fact that saying that it's the same on both sides is massive BS.

It's not the same on both sides. Not even close.

I might have family members in the KKK and secretly think they're alright. That doesn't change the fact that there's nothing remotely parallel on the left.

I will continue to call out the 'both-siderism' bullshit as long as it keeps rearing its ugly head.

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2018, 15:08

Couple things here: Peterson mentions that psychometric data draws no correlation between I.Q. and Morality: false
He does a doublespeak on the nature of cultural bias in I.Q. tests as he claims that if a test is culturally biased it will 'underpredict' cultural performance...Say What?

One odd thing...notice how he is rubbing the desk as he answers the question of cultural, ethnic, and racial divides in testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m91vhePuzdo

Fred Steeves

16th December 2018, 21:20

Where's the usual outrage? :hmm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Xk-ojdOJ8

Dreamtimer

16th December 2018, 22:45

I'm not sure I know what the usual is. (I've complained about Mika before)

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2018, 22:53

yeah, I never heard about until this morning...but...one apologist made this statement..."She has not generally demonstrated herself to be a homophobe" ...whatever it is she said...it must have been interesting....maybe she's been hanging out with that conservative 'smokin' joe' too long... :)

are you kiddin' ...

Emil El Zapato

27th December 2018, 00:03

I'm baacckkkk!

A thought occurred to me. Has anyone studied if crazy people make sense to each other?

Aragorn

27th December 2018, 04:39

I'm baacckkkk!

A thought occurred to me. Has anyone studied if crazy people make sense to each other?

They probably do. ;)

Emil El Zapato

29th December 2018, 18:43

Anybody have any suggestion for alt-alt-books?

How about Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them". I hope that suggestion is not too risque... :) It's a New Year!

Dreamtimer

29th December 2018, 20:51

I like the video that Fred posted here (https://jandeane81.com/showthread.php/12769-A-Walk-Down-Memory-Lane?p=842005506&viewfull=1#post842005506). I've always liked that song.

I'm in a weird place in terms of pressure...there's only me to put pressure on myself. And there's only me to decide how much I'll let others pressure me. The biggest drive I have is to protect my son and make sure my husband is OK. I'm not that old and yet in many ways my opus magnum is made.

Where I go from here is up to me and Mother Nature.

Emil El Zapato

29th December 2018, 22:17

There's always something DT, my dad died last week...he's happier now I'm sure...despite what my sister-in-law says. You ever know one of those people that has a good heart, means well, but just doesn't have any sense or perspective on what other people are feeling? :)

Emil El Zapato

31st December 2018, 14:33

Paradox is a UK sci-fi mini-presentation (5 episodes). It's pretty good. I think it is set in Northern Ireland.

Emil El Zapato

31st December 2018, 14:38

This is more of a curiosity thing than anything else: Hardly anyone even said 'good, asshole' when I posted about the disappearance of one of my cats or the death of my father. Is it no one noticed because they never look at this fascinating thread or is it because they dislike me...which, of course, is ok with me but if Turiya had posted either one of those posts I would have said sorry. It's just rude, what is wrong with these people.

I do appreciate Aragon and DT's notice. :)

p.s. I think it is saying something deeper than that.

Aragorn

31st December 2018, 17:12

Hardly anyone even said 'good, asshole' when I posted about the disappearance of one of my cats or the death of my father. Is it no one noticed because they never look at this fascinating thread or is it because they dislike me...which, of course, is ok with me but if Turiya had posted either one of those posts I would have said sorry. It's just rude, what is wrong with these people.

I must apologize, NotAPretender, but between the multiple and highly unpredictable crashes of my dying computer and the infestation with far-right rabies that was running amok here at the forum in recent times, I completely missed the news of your father's passing. I plead guilty as charged.

Allow me to convey my belated condolences. There's not much that can be said in circumstances like that, other than perhaps that I've been in your shoes and that I know what it's like. I lost my maternal grandmother — who was living with my parents — in 1994, I lost my mother in 1996 and I lost my father in 1998. That's three very close relatives in 4 years time. So I know how you must feel, and you have my sympathies. :smiley hug:

Fred Steeves

31st December 2018, 17:18

p.s. I think it is saying something deeper than that.

I'm sorry for your loss man, losing a parent cuts deep to the bone.

Now having said that, for me anyway there is nothing deeper to this. I saw your casual mention that your dad had died but didn't know what to do with it. Do you know why? Because I had been seeing you posting along as usual like oh what fun it is to ride in a one horse open sleigh, without missing a beat and even slamming a couple of people along the way during the week previous.

Then I see a brief mention of dad dying but right back at it again, so it gave me pause to wonder if it was just some flippant thing you may have tossed out there to get a reaction or something.

When my mom died the forum scene was still years away, but my daily interactions with people were far from business as usual. During the time of my dad's death I was still over at The Project, but my only posts during that time were in a members only thread describing the ordeal, and asking for healing right up to the point of when it was over. There was no blah blah blah all over the place...

Admittedly people grieve in different ways so again I am sorry for your loss, and I hope your dad died well. I don't think anyone here would stoop so low as to purposely disrespecting such a personal event in your life or anyone else's, I'm betting most of the disconnect was due to the presentation if anything.

Emil El Zapato

31st December 2018, 17:24

I wasn't really looking for that, Aragorn, but I am grateful for your thoughtfulness...not for myself but the fact that you have it to offer the world. Good humans are hard to come by in the best of circumstances. We either have it or we don't...I'm not sure it is something that can be cultivated. B.T.W. You did respond to my 'lost cat' post which again I appreciated. I liked the cat but I was glad that it was gone...I think my other cat misses having someone to fight with because I won't. I feel like I'm depriving it of a part of its nature but that cat is just too damn mean when it gets excited. :)

that's deeper Fred...I didn't want to come on like a drama queen, my father would not have approved despite being quite the drama master himself. A lot of mixed feelings regarding his life and death. I think he is much happier now than he was capable of being in 3d life. It seems in death as well as life some can invoke bitterness, though...it's part of the legacy of a very conflicted human being (my father).

Kathy

31st December 2018, 18:42

It seems in death as well as life some can invoke bitterness, though...it's part of the legacy of a very conflicted human being (my father).

NAP, Do you imagine your father would invoke bitterness towards you? If you do, I would advise that you put forgiveness in place.

When I experienced a near-death experience in which I felt such happiness and joy but from which I was persuaded to return to life. After that experience, I waited to see the nun who had knelt at the foot off my bed and, when I did see her, all she said was, "Kathy are you trying to catch flies?" I have since felt that I had been lied to.

Emil El Zapato

31st December 2018, 19:04

Aragorn

31st December 2018, 19:50

NAP, Do you imagine your father would invoke bitterness towards you? If you do, I would advise that you put forgiveness in place.

When I experienced a near-death experience in which I felt such happiness and joy but from which I was persuaded to return to life. After that experience, I waited to see the nun who had knelt at the foot off my bed and, when I did see her, all she said was, "Kathy are you trying to catch flies?" I have since felt that I had been lied to.

That is a bit of a question but I would say undoubtedly my father was embittered about my existence...embittered but not hateful...there is a big difference. He was caught in an emotional whirlpool of no escape. All his kids bailed from the situation in different ways. My older brother is embittered and hateful...my younger brother is embittered but forgiving, not to mention dutiful. My sister was emotionally cast aside, and I'm bitter at times, philosophically forgiving, and thankful that he is at the end of his suffering on Earth. He was dealt a hand that was more challenging than he wished.

He died 60 years to the day as my mother...2 weeks before Christmas.

One's relationship with one's parents — whether they're still part of these mortal realms or not — can be quite complex and challenging. I recognize some of the bitterness you describe here-above, as my relationship with my own parents was equally complex and difficult.

They too were met with challenges in their life, and one of their ways of dealing with those was to take them out on my younger brother and myself. More so on myself than on my brother, really, because I was the eldest, and I was also a lot more docile and controllable than my brother. He had a much shorter fuse than I did, and he was both assertive and tactical in how he approached the difficulties at home. I was way too honest, and they knew they could push me around far more than what my brother would allow them to get away with. In addition to that, my brother was also far more outdoorsy than I ever was — I would just sit in my room and listen to music and/or play my guitar — and so he would always get the hell out of Dodge before trouble would break loose. He would jump on his bicycle and ride off, and they had no idea where he was going or with whom he would be.

I sincerely loved and respected my parents, but there was definitely a substantial amount of bitterness brooding within me, ànd within my brother. And in spite of my ability to empathize with their situation and my forgiving of their trespasses against me, I must admit that this bitterness is still very much alive within me today because of the damage they did to me. Being autistic, I had (and still have) enough problems of my own, and my high school years were especially traumatic because I was constantly being bullied and humiliated at school, every single school day of the year, for three years on end. And then at the end of the day, I'd come home from that hell, and right into another one. More humiliation, more insults, more false allegations, and more "You will do as I say because I say so and you're living under my roof."

I rarely ever talk about any of that stuff, in part because it's all in the past now, and in part because I'm autistic and I tend to just bottle it all up within me. I am now much more eloquent than I was back then, as well as that at over half a century old, I can now also put things into a much better perspective than when I was a teenager or a young adult. But that damage to my personality has been done, and I still have to live with that every single day of my life. And that is why the bitterness will never completely disappear.

Some wounds just never heal. :hmm:

Emil El Zapato

31st December 2018, 21:04

yeah, that all makes perfect sense to me...Talk about being in a storm and having no port...it is just unfair for any human much less children...One thing I've noticed is that if an abused child is able to overcome the challenges that their parents heap on them the parents will always point to their own 'good' job. Bull, an inner happy child is the ONLY thing that is representative of good parenting. Which is why I suffered so much watching my daughter growing up under her mother's 'excellent' parenting.

Emil El Zapato

4th January 2019, 00:49

The Chinese landed a module on the back side of the moon today! Wow! I can't wait for the pictures!

Dreamtimer

4th January 2019, 14:04

I'm bemused by the apparent obsession with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

And the YUUGE disconnect between calling her a commie and having a President who's now praising the former soviet union for invading Afghanistan.

This isn't cognitive dissonance. This is way way cray cray.

Dreamtimer

5th January 2019, 06:39

I'm anti-unnecessary war, which is most of them.

An NBC contributor/commentator has resigned and written about the network's pro-war bias.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbi4axKBYQ

Dreamtimer

5th January 2019, 06:56

This is a weird synchronicity.

I was looking at the most recent Veritas interviews. One that caught my eye was of Russell Brinegar. The synopsis reads:

Following a near-death experience that prompted a personal awakening to the underlying, interdimensional nature of reality, we discuss insights into the realm of the paranormal. Ghosts, cryptids, flying saucers, and ufonauts. UFO lore and its societal impact are analyzed, along with the symbiotic relationship between science and science fiction. We willl examine the mission of the flying saucers regarding the impending technological Singularity, the advent of sentient artificial intelligence, and Transhumanism, all predicted by futurists to occur sometime between 2045-2080. We give you food for thought regarding Earth's UFO mystery, and the ultimate cosmic destiny of humankind.

So I did a search of his name. And a link came up to the Urania Book (paper 106) which you just brought up, NAP.

So weird. I can't figure out the connection to Russell. There's nothing about him on the page about the book.

:confused::scrhd::hmm:

Emil El Zapato

5th January 2019, 14:35

I'm very powerful DT... :)

Here's a one off...

I paid a pretty penny for some night vision goggles...I'm going hunting for those creatures hiding in the non-visible light spectrum... :)

What's interesting about the pro-war thing. The Generals versus Trump ignorance is what is driving the bias. Truly a failure of media. The 'wrongness' of war has been lost in favor of expediency. If we can get past Trump, then life will aright itself and the liberals will go back to anti-warness.

Dreamtimer

5th January 2019, 15:22

But the media is about money, not being liberal. They were helping to beat the drums which led us to take our eye off the ball in Afghanistan and go into Iraq where there were no such weapons of mass destruction that the media kept going on about.

And the media is also parroting Trump's statements and tweets again and again and again. Now, he is the President... But the approach could be quite different.

Emil El Zapato

5th January 2019, 18:49

that's a valid point but no one ever said they are smarter than us... :)

Emil El Zapato

12th January 2019, 18:48

If we're gonna do it...by God...let us do it right!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIUVa4vH-CE

Emil El Zapato

12th January 2019, 18:57

Another gem from 3 days ago. The amazing assbackwards thinking portrayed in this video is absolutely breathtaking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6puM4TV18o

Dreamtimer

21st January 2019, 22:44

Emil El Zapato

21st January 2019, 23:14

:) No, that would have cost me about 10,000 dollars. Out of my price range for sure... I paid for an earlier generation at a fraction of that cost.

Dreamtimer

22nd January 2019, 04:24

Dang. 10K. I have to agree with your decision.

Let us know what you see. :popc:

Dreamtimer

24th January 2019, 13:39

When our leaders extol and promote violence, guess what? It happens.

[In the US] At least 50 people were killed by an attacker connected to right-wing extremism in 2018, an increase of 35 per cent from the previous year, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) found.

The rise means nearly three-quarters of extremist murders in America in the past decade can be linked to right-wing domestic terrorism, more than three times as many as those committed by Islamists.

The figures should “serve as a wake-up call to everyone about the deadly consequences of hateful rhetoric,” said the ADL, a New York-based organisation with monitors antisemitism and other hate crime.

The ADL counted each murder in which the killer or suspect had links to right-wing extremist groups or ideology - including white supremacism, Islamophobia, antisemitism, or misogyny. However, not all of the killings have been established as motivated by extremism.

According to the ADL's calculation, last year was the deadliest for right-wing extremist murders in the US since 1995, when Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people in the Oklahoma City bombing.

When all forms of extremism are taken into account, 2018 was the fourth deadliest for domestic terrorism in America since 1970, the ADL said. The rise can partly be attributed to the high casualty numbers in five mass shootings which accounted for 38 of the 50 deaths last year.

However, the percentage of extremist deaths linked to right-wing ideologies has also surged in the past two years. In 2017, 62 per cent of extremist murders were committed by ring-wing killers. That figure was itself up from 21 per cent in 2016, according to the ADL, which said the increase reflected a long-term trend.

In the past decade, 73.3 per cent of all extremist-related killings in the US were committed by right-wing domestic extremists. Some 23.4 per cent were linked to Islamic extremism.

Jacob Davey, who co-leads research into the extreme right at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue in London, said the threat of far right violence was growing internationally “The global atmosphere...is becoming more polarised. This is empowering and emboldening right-wing voices and it’s creating an environment which makes it quite easy for individuals and groups to profit off this polarisation and drive division further.

“We are also seeing some really concerted international propaganda efforts to stoke this global atmosphere of fear and hatred.”

Mr Davey said digital communications had “lowered the barrier of entry” for involvement in extremist movements, while Donald Trump’s presidency had also “empowered right-wing activists through dog whistle tactics”. (we discussed dog-whistles on this forum)

White supremacists carried out 39 of the extremist killings in America last year, according to ADL, although it noted one of those had become interested in radical Islam before stabbing a 13-year-old to death in Florida in March.

Eleven of those murdered in 2018 were worshippers shot dead at the Tree of Life synagogue on Pittsburgh in October. The suspected shooter, Robert Bowers, 46, allegedly shouted antisemitic abuse as he carried out the attack.

“For too long, policymakers have focused disproportionate attention on the threat of Islamist extremism, to the detriment of readiness to address many other security issues,” it said.

Last year the Washington DC-based Centre for Strategic and International Studies warned far right terror attacks on American soil had quadrupled over two years.

“US federal and local agencies need to shift some of their focus and intelligence resources to penetrating far-right networks and preventing future attacks,” said Seth Jones, chair of the centre’s transnational threats project.

Perhaps this could be on the Collapse thread since extremism is part of chaos and will bring about Collapse...

Dreamtimer

24th January 2019, 13:55

Emil El Zapato

24th January 2019, 14:46

there is an answer: firing squad... :)

As for Tom Delonge...I've had those security clearances in the past but not currently active. I don't know about requiring a clearance to get them...unless, they were in fact issued by the military?

Chris

24th January 2019, 17:19

Just what is an Agent Provocateur? Could the following list perhaps be an indicator?

Have that agent relax sanctions on the leader’s country. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent antagonize the country’s allies. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent sow discord in the country with hateful divisive rhetoric. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent attack the countries institutions, particularly the Justice Department, and install cronies in the leadership of these institutions. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent pull the country out of multinational trade and security alliances. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent implement crazy economic trade sanctions to weaken its economy. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent heap praise on the foreign leader. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent go to extraordinary lengths to conceal communications with the foreign leader. ✔ CHECK

Have that agent regurgitate obscure dishonest talking points to serve the foreign leader’s propaganda purposes.✔ CHECK

HAVE THAT AGENT SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY’S ENTIRE GOVERNMENT ON THE BASIS OF SOME STUPID CONTRIVED RATIONALE, AND NOT REOPEN IT DESPITE ENORMOUS POLITICAL, SECURITY, SOCIAL AND FINANCIAL DAMAGE, THEREBY CRIPPLING THE COUNTRY. ✔ CHECK

I fear we're bonked. :nails:

Don't worry DT, this sort of thing happens in other countries all the time and people just get on with their lives nevertheless. In fact, the Trump presidency is almost a carbon copy of Berlusconi's premiership, including the misogyny, the sheer idiocy and incompetence, not to mention the sucking up to Putin.

I remember talking at length with Italians (who lived in the UK) and how disappointed they were with the idiots that voted for him. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more corrupt, sleazy and incompetent man in politics than old Berlo, but of course El Donaldo is giving him a run for his money.

I don't know weather you remember those heady times, but Berlusconi, Sarkozy and Putin were like a triumvirate of bad boys and they partied on the Italian playboy's yacht. These guys are all mob bosses and it's best to treat them that way. Trump will be gone before you know it and someone more competent is very likely to take his place. Anyways Trump's mind is already going, much like Reagan's towards the end, I think he will struggle to complete his first term, if that.

Aragorn

24th January 2019, 17:32

[...] In fact, the Trump presidency is almost a carbon copy of Berlusconi's premiership, including the misogyny, the sheer idiocy and incompetence, not to mention the sucking up to Putin.

Yesss! :h5: You hit that nail right on the head, Chris. :like:

The resemblance between Donald J. Trump and Silvio Berlusconi as political leaders is simply too uncanny to ignore. They are indeed both...

incompetent;
morally corrupt;
rooted in organized crime;
racist;
misogynist; and (last but not least)
utterly narcissistic.

Chris

24th January 2019, 23:38

This one's worth watching again. The Narcissist in chief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNYZYxLSgPQ

Scary Socialism:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi5OPJ98laE

Dreamtimer

25th January 2019, 09:21

Bill's caustic wit always hits the money mark. And he's right. The Dems wuss out so often it's been quite depressing.

Pelosi does get Trump's respect, as much as he's capable of such a thing. It's interesting to watch.

The newer Dems aren't as afraid of Republicans. In fact, they're not afraid at all.

Finally. A one-sided fight is boring.

Wind

25th January 2019, 15:47

Roger Stone got arrested, another douchebag bites the dust.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/01/25/us/politics/ap-us-trump-russia-probe.html

Dreamtimer

25th January 2019, 16:01

Stone is about to appear in court.

Fred Steeves

26th January 2019, 13:26

Seeing as Robert Mueller is the one tasked with uncovering supposed Russian collusion by Captain Chaos and company, and seeing as his own past or ethics are never questioned, I thought this might be of some interest to some. This does beg the question: Why hasn't Mueller himself never been pushed into explaining his actions (or inaction) as assistant US attorney, and then as acting US attorney in Boston, during the time the FBI was colluding with famed mobster Whitey Bulger?

In 2001, the four men convicted of Teddy Deegan’s murder were exonerated. Turned out the FBI let them take the rap to protect one of their informants, a killer named Vincent “Jimmy’’ Flemmi, who just happened to be the brother of their other rat, Stevie Flemmi. Thanks to the FBI’s corruption, taxpayers got stuck with the $100 million bill for compensating the framed men, two of whom, Greco and Tameleo, died in prison.

Albano was appalled that, later that same year, Mueller was appointed FBI director, because it was Mueller, first as an assistant US attorney then as the acting US attorney in Boston, who wrote letters to the parole and pardons board throughout the 1980s opposing clemency for the four men framed by FBI lies.

Of course, Mueller was also in that position while Whitey Bulger was helping the FBI cart off his criminal competitors even as he buried bodies in shallow graves along the Neponset.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/1970/01/19/one-lingering-question-for-fbi-director-robert-mueller/613uW0MR7czurRn7M4BG2J/story.html

Gio

26th January 2019, 14:21

Seeing as Robert Mueller is the one tasked with uncovering supposed Russian collusion by Captain Chaos and company, and seeing as his own past or ethics are never questioned, I thought this might be of some interest to some. This does beg the question: Why hasn't Mueller himself never been pushed into explaining his actions (or inaction) as assistant US attorney, and then as acting US attorney in Boston, during the time the FBI was colluding with famed mobster Whitey Bulger?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/1970/01/19/one-lingering-question-for-fbi-director-robert-mueller/613uW0MR7czurRn7M4BG2J/story.html

Captain Chaos and company indeed Fred...

Perhaps Mueller will write a book someday, till then i see no crimes (or even his being derelict in his duties indicated here) ... Besides, Mueller could be fired by El Donaldo Attorney General (s) tomorrow - But there are still dozens of U.S. prosecutors (ready and willing) in the Southern District of New York on his (administrations) ass !

Whitey Bulger And The FBI: What Did Robert Mueller Know And When Did He Know It? (https://washingtonbabylon.com/whitey-bulger-and-the-fbi-what-did-robert-mueller-know-and-when-did-he-know-it/)

Emil El Zapato

26th January 2019, 15:21

Good story Fred,

The sad part is that given the Hoover era...Mueller might still be the 'cleanest' guy around. Just more proof that there really is no justice. Some are more subject to it than others. The lowest and the highest.

Gio

26th January 2019, 23:09

And speaking of J Edgar ...

Official and Confidential: The Secret Life of J. Edgar Hoover (https://www.amazon.com/Official-Confidential-Secret-Edgar-Hoover-ebook/dp/B006OG53X8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1548543243&sr=8-2&keywords=biography+j+edgar+hoover#customerReviews)

This is the real stuff !

And i was fortunate to know someone who would know ...

"No one exemplified paranoia and secrecy at the heart of American power better than J. Edgar Hoover, the original director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. For this consummate biography, renowned investigative journalist Anthony Summers interviewed more than eight hundred witnesses and pored through thousands of documents to get at the truth about the man who headed the FBI for fifty years, persecuted political enemies, blackmailed politicians, and lived his own surprising secret life. Ultimately, Summers paints a portrait of a fatally flawed individual who should never have held such power, and for so long."

This book will shock/educate even the most political savvy in 20th Century U.S. history, I highly recommend ...
Was hard to put down.

Maggie

27th January 2019, 01:12

I'm sure some people have seen this interview between Randy Credico and Abby Martin? IMO Randy Credico represents those of us who have had a sincere impulse to help promote causes for justice. IMO Julian Assange is also a victim of his desire to see truth revealed. Roger Stone is a craven danger to any who came near him but he was able to last for a long time because he "got results". Politics is a place where the sincere always get bashed in the head and thrown in the mud by the Stones. I don't think anything and anyone who gets involved with the realm of politics is able to stay unconcussed and clean.

PCCEeK0cofs

Dreamtimer

27th January 2019, 12:15

I agree, Maggie. I could never make it in politics 'cause I'd get bashed or refuse to bash.

I had to deal with politics in the Episcopal church, which tore apart our parish. I've never been more disappointed in leadership. Families were hurt because of politics and that church has yet to have a regular priest. My son was a child at the time and he's grown now!

We're no better than middle schoolers and we need to get past this crap and grow up.

I go back to Pinker (psychologist) periodically because as a species we really have advanced even though it's hard to grok in day-to-day life.

Maggie

27th January 2019, 17:22

I go back to Pinker (psychologist) periodically because as a species we really have advanced even though it's hard to grok in day-to-day life.

Yes, I do think we have developed as a species. There is no way to engage IMO in the world political/economic game without "living and dying" by the rules which are ugly, are brutal and kept in play because they seem true to those involved IMO. It seems we could just create a different way but we'd have to see things in a whole new light FIRST IMO. We know that feeling of what would be wonderful. Now IMO we need to dare expect it.

I was reminded of Charles Eisenstein today. I love his thinking.

In the story of Interbeing, life is a gift. The world and everything in it is a gift. We did not earn our lives. We did not earn the sun; it is not thanks to our hard efforts that it shines. We did not earn the ability of plants to grow. We did not earn water. We did not earn our conception nor our breath. Our hearts beat and our livers metabolize all on their own. Life is a gift.

What about all those things that did come to you through hard effort? You worked hard for your money perhaps, for your status, for your healthy body. OK, but from where comes your capacity to work hard? From where comes your creativity, your strength, and your intelligence? Did you earn these too?

When we apprehend these basic truths, gratitude comes naturally. Gratitude is the knowledge of having received and the consequent desire to give in turn. It is primal. All beings including human beings have an unquenchable desire to pour forth their gifts. That is why if you are in a situation where your gifts are not valued, not received, or not useful, you will want to leave that situation, that job or relationship. No matter how much you are being paid, no matter how scared you are to leave the relationship, you’re going to want to bust out and develop and express your capacity to give to the world in service of something you care about.

All beings are thus. That is why we should be living in a world of incredible abundance. The fact that modern society has constructed conditions of such pervasive scarcity is an impressive achievement! So much talent, such a rich world. How is it that so many live in insecurity, anxiety, and deprivation? Not even the wealthy are exempt from the fear of it.

Nature is fundamentally abundant, even profligate. I am writing this at my brother’s farm. The birds sing all day, pouring forth their song as a gift to the world. Yeah I know about attracting a mate and marking territory, but come on, do they have to sing that much to do that? It is as if they are bursting with the desire to give their song, just like you are. You were born for it, whatever your song is, you were born for it. Do the wild black raspberries here have to taste that good to attract animals to eat them and poop out their seeds? And don’t you have that urge too, to do it better than necessary for the grade, for the boss, for the market? Don’t you have to yearn to make art of your work? Don’t you have the urge within you to create something beautiful, to expand your capacities to their full potential and express them in service to something magnificent?

You are not alone. Imagine what the world would be if each person were liberated in this desire. Imagine what the world could be if we could sweep away the conditions that conspire to stunt and suppress our gifts. These conditions are political, they are economic, they are ideological, they are relational, they are psychological and they are spiritual. For civilization to transition into an age of the gift requires transformation on every level.https://charleseisenstein.org/essays/living-in-the-gift/

Fred Steeves

27th January 2019, 22:45

I'm thankful for people like Jimmy Dore, Kyle Kulinski, Tulsi Gabbard and Joe Rogan, for keeping things real and level headed for the Left in this age of Captain Chaos' uncanny ability to activate their lizard brain at will. In this particular case, here's Kyle keeping things real and down to earth concerning this new found love affair with the FBI. Strange days indeed...

The whole 6 minute bit is pure gold, but the pertinent part here begins at the 4:14 mark for those with limited time. :)

It's weird because in the age of Trump a lot of people who are nominally on the left love the FBI, and they love the CIA, because they think like: "Oh, I think they're against Trump, so since they're against Trump we're gonna default align ourselves with them, we're gonna defacto be aligned with them".

And, my response to that is no, do not form an alliance with guys like James Comey, do not form an alliance with guys like Robert Mueller. They don't like you, they don't agree with you they have been undermining you"!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK3gBt7HIZo&t=284s

Emil El Zapato

28th January 2019, 02:00

lol...that was good. Of course, it is as true as true gets. But lefties are kind of like Fundamentalist Christians...They don't f*cking care that Trump is an atheist, philanderer, thief, and Chief-of-all-Hypocrites. He's gonna demand that we have prayer in schools and close all abortion clinics (Which, of course, he isn't and I wonder how many abortions that m*therf*cker has paid for). If it takes a Mueller to take down that scumbag...well that's okkkkk...

Dreamtimer

28th January 2019, 17:42

"Enemy of my enemy" is a pretty old dynamic. It happens in politics all the time. I would like to believe that our agencies were above politics and are only being politicized now but that would just be naive.

It's been happening since before I was born.

Dreamtimer

29th January 2019, 10:35

Nate Sliver (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-president-trump-is-like-a-terrible-poker-player/) writes:

I’ve been thinking about President Trump’s tactics during the partial government shutdown.

The way Trump has played his hand so far on the shutdown has a lot in common with how bad poker players tend to cost themselves money. The analogy to poker [is related to] Trump’s overall strategy toward the presidency.

In general, the strategic goal of poker is to put your opponent to tough decisions.

As a corollary, good players play in such a way as to avoid putting themselves to tough decisions. Bad players, conversely, tend to paint themselves into corners.

Trump...didn’t have a lot of good choices on the shutdown.

I tend to agree with my colleague Perry Bacon Jr. that conceding to Pelosi was Trump’s least-worst option.

The point is that all of Trump’s options stunk, and like in the case of a bad player who limped into the pot with 7-2 offsuit (the worst hand in poker) and then got caught up in a huge pot with a bad hand, it was 100 percent Trump’s fault.

Nor was the shutdown a case where things unexpectedly took a rough turn for Trump.

It’s been obvious the whole time that it was liable to end in political (if not also literal) disaster. Trump was an unpopular president using an unpopular technique to push for an unpopular policy, and he was doing it just after Republicans had lost 40 seats to Democrats in the midterm elections while Trump tried to scaremonger voters on immigration.

I can certainly think of lapses in presidential judgment that were more consequential in hindsight than the shutdown, but not all that many that were so obvious in advance.

Public opinion does have consequences: Sometimes it prevents you from passing unpopular policies, and sometimes you pass them but suffer electorally. And sometimes, it’s both.

If Trump doesn’t believe the polls showing himself and his policies, such as the border wall, to be unpopular, then maybe that’s part of the problem. (There are a lot of ways to be bad at poker, but probably the most common one is to play too many hands because you overestimate your own abilities.) if Trump thinks polls are fake news and if he hires advisers who encourage that perception, that could explain why he constantly puts himself in such politically untenable positions.

There’s something else about those bad poker players that I think might apply to Trump.

Some of them (not all by any means) actually do have decent people-reading skills. They can sometimes suss out, through body language and table talk, whether your hand is relatively strong or relatively weak and make better decisions on that basis. It’s almost never enough to overcome poor strategic and technical play; poker is mostly a mathematical game.

But Trump has no sense for which battles to pick and seemingly little awareness of his own unpopularity and the consequences it has for the presidency. Moreover, although Trump sometimes seems to realize when he has gotten himself into a no-win position, he doesn’t recognize how often his own decisions are responsible for putting him there.

The presidency is a long game, and a much harder one than being a real-estate developer or a reality television host.