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Paloma
5th October 2017, 00:48
Both means this AND that. Definitely not this OR that. Instead of just choosing one and not the other, instead of rejecting one over the other, it means trying to accomodate both. Fit it all in, somehow. Let both sides win.
It is the path of unification, without creating uniformity.
So we can live in a Bothy or we can live in a Bothané, and still be neither condescending nor envious. We accept both life styles.


Chateau de Bothané:
https://static.wixstatic.com/media/602f4d_6d9222d3e7e844f1bb1f3d8b4eea2406.jpg/v1/fill/w_1280,h_350,al_c,q_90/602f4d_6d9222d3e7e844f1bb1f3d8b4eea2406.jpg

Bothy:
http://www.gtleisure.co.uk/walks/cw10/cw10232a.jpg

sandy
5th October 2017, 01:07
Humility and free choice are the keys and yes we can accept both lifestyles and have enough resources world wide to facilitate such. What I am saying is totally acceptable IMO when one is not begotten at the expense of the other. :smiley hug:

enjoy being
5th October 2017, 02:55
There is a habit to have an ideal which excludes alternatives. Sometimes just by being caught up in having an ideal can tread on the toes of others. When given the question, "If you were ruler for a day what would you do?" few can resist doing something, to toil and try and make it how you think it should be... yep the reason behind many a war.
Half the time I think it could be helped purely by the awareness of the dynamic and the watchful eye. That it is most dangerous in its seeming invisibility.

Paloma
5th October 2017, 12:40
There is a habit to have an ideal which excludes alternatives. Sometimes just by being caught up in having an ideal can tread on the toes of others. When given the question, "If you were ruler for a day what would you do?" few can resist doing something, to toil and try and make it how you think it should be... yep the reason behind many a war.
Half the time I think it could be helped purely by the awareness of the dynamic and the watchful eye. That it is most dangerous in its seeming invisibility.

Not a bad legacy, having gone down in history as the ruler of non-interference.

Gale Frierson
5th October 2017, 20:31
Wonder how Mahatma Gandhi would have seen that.

Paloma
6th October 2017, 00:39
Wonder how Mahatma Gandhi would have seen that.
It is up to the oppressor nation to make the changes where all people can receive the education to use the law of both. Unless they volunteer those rights the normal procedure is revolution. Gandhi was the exception.

Aianawa
6th October 2017, 01:08
Like this, the so called mind parasite will have problems lol.

Amanda
6th October 2017, 22:55
While I understand the concept - I wonder how homeless People would feel. Let's ask them shall we?

On another level - my first thought, when looking at the photographs was this: Imagine the housework. The dusting et cetera .... I guess that is when Servants and servtitude enters the scene ....

Thought provoking but at what cost to the freedom of either/both the lifestyles in question???

Much Peace - Amanda

Paloma
7th October 2017, 04:18
While I understand the concept - I wonder how homeless People would feel. Let's ask them shall we?

On another level - my first thought, when looking at the photographs was this: Imagine the housework. The dusting et cetera .... I guess that is when Servants and servtitude enters the scene ....

Thought provoking but at what cost to the freedom of either/both the lifestyles in question???

Much Peace - Amanda
I have been a servant, and also had many servants. Even as an employer I was still giving service to others.
The highest station in life is to be of service.

One homeless guy I once knew always found a roof over his head, even if he didnt know from one day to the next where this was going to be.
He is now the fashion director for Vanity Fair magazine. Vogue editors scrambled to have him stay in their spare room. He never rented or owned a place of his own.

A person who has their inner act together never needs to worry about the above issues. They serve by giving their all, and they enjoy being served.
Transcending societal programming is possible that if alternative ways of thinking are presented.
Then the ups and downs of life will be seen for what they are- fleeting mirages.

Dreamtimer
7th October 2017, 11:22
I like the law of both. I have friends from both sides of the aisle. I like to know both (all, really) sides of an argument. I like fantasy and science fiction.

The large house is beautiful. I personally don't want to have a house I have to staff. I don't have any services in terms of cleaning. All the cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc. is done by me. My husband does do his own laundry. And appliances are certainly helpful.

The law of both means: two heads are better than one, and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

We even have a symbol for it:
https://rosettacode.org/mw/images/thumb/9/97/YinYang-Haskell.svg/300px-YinYang-Haskell.svg.png

Amanda
8th October 2017, 00:39
If service and serving is of importance - then ideally we should/could all be in service to each other - yes? Maybe then no one would be homeless or without essential needs. As for the person who bed hops - as long as he is happy that is all that matters. Personally being able to lay your bones in your bed each night is of comfort to many people.

If everyone had what they needed/wanted, be it a large home or a small dwelling then there would be no one in need. That is the society that will benefit everyone - yes/no/maybe??

Much Peace - Amanda

Paloma
8th October 2017, 01:45
If service and serving is of importance - then ideally we should/could all be in service to each other - yes? Maybe then no one would be homeless or without essential needs. As for the person who bed hops - as long as he is happy that is all that matters. Personally being able to lay your bones in your bed each night is of comfort to many people.

If everyone had what they needed/wanted, be it a large home or a small dwelling then there would be no one in need. That is the society that will benefit everyone - yes/no/maybe??

Much Peace - Amanda

You got it, Amanda.
I believe that even a so-called lazy person has something to offer as long as they are doing inner work, like meditators, and who strive for inner peace. Because that peace will radiate out, and have a positive affect on their environment.

So it would be worthwhile to consider a society where no one is shamed for being humble, living a humble life style, and not being an achiever type.

However, I would still have issues with their opposite, people who are excessive thrill seekers. People who feel dead unless they live on the edge. Maybe someone can help me with that. I would like to find an angle where I can become 100% inclusive.

enjoy being
8th October 2017, 03:15
I was trying to find a webpage on Service vs Servitude. It was one I found quite a good number of years ago. It had a few good examples or analogies on service vs servitude. From memory, the one I may be able to relay was the one in which one person is disabled, in a wheelchair, and another person who is close to them, starts doing lots of things for the disabled person. They do it out of love and pity and the goodness of their heart. They can sometimes do it partially out of some form of guilt. Yet when you step back, the person is helping the disabled person too much, making them reliant, making them believe they can't do things on their own. Between them they have created a bond of servitude where it is entirely unhelpful for each person.

sandy
8th October 2017, 03:36
Dear Paloma,

Maybe your are inclusive and it is the thrill seeker type that does not want to be included...not enough buzz for them!!

Dreamtimer
8th October 2017, 12:52
Interesting, Nothing. We would worry that my Dad's wife was doing too much for him when he should be doing for himself. She's always doing things for people and her daughters worry that she doesn't relax enough herself. Over time, my Dad's decline has been more about health issues than her helping him and she does take time for herself.

She just happens to be a go-go-go type, which served her well when she was a teacher of sixth graders for 25 years!

I can say from personal experience that I get thanks and positive feedback for being a positive and kind person. People will compliment me, observing that I never speak badly of people. That's a great compliment to receive and it's the result of something that can't be measured and planned and weighed. It's just about how someone lives their life.

No doubt I think some sh!t about people, but I keep my Grandaddy in mind who taught me, if you don't have something nice to say, say nothing.

Paloma
8th October 2017, 13:58
A facebook friend posted a photo of a Russian superyacht called A. Once, while in Barbados I saw another superyacht also called Motoryacht A. Same owner. Didn't know at the time that the guy owned two superyachts.
People were gossiping about the fact that he and his wife were alone on board with 30+ staff.
So this morning I noticed many incredibly negative comments on that FB page regarding the Russian owner's wealth and how he spends his money. I just checked him out. Andrey Melnichenko, a Piscean Industrialist youngish billionaire and philantropist, married to a former model and pop singer. Also checked out the FB pages of the people who made negative comments...mostly New Age types. I always like to see both ends of the stick, to see the polarity in context.

According to Wikipedia: "In 2016, Melnichenko was given a special award for "good deeds" and charity works by the President of Russia. According to media reports, he is one of the main social investors and philanthropists of Russia"

Motoryacht A:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/A_%28ship%29_at_Sorrent_2012_3.jpg/2560px-A_%28ship%29_at_Sorrent_2012_3.jpg

Sailingyacht A:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/White_Pearl_A_Seite.JPG

sandy
9th October 2017, 03:32
How he came to be a billionaire might be of use to know when assessing his riches and also his agenda re: philantrophy. Often charity work is purposeful for more reasons than good will....:-)

Having Yacht's may be one way to actually get away from it all and one would think that this would be necessary for sanity and travel safety in the case of mega rich entities.

Not ever experiencing this life style I can only guess....

I do have a few first cousins that are millionaires and some of them have said they are envious of me due to the life I have lived. My seeming lack of fear and roots of confidence I present, the things I have seen and done leaves them in awe they say. They say I have lived and they have not!! Something to think about as when it comes from 2 different cousins at different times in my life it has some food for thought for sure.

Happy to be me.............:victorious:

Amanda
9th October 2017, 22:14
How thought provoking - a millionaire/billionaire who needs to get away from it ... exactly what are they getting away from I ponder????? Sometimes charity work is actually a front for tax rebate/dodge/whatever? I do not know the wealthy person in question so I cannot make any assessment on a personal level. I still think that we should ask some homeless people what they think of the Law of Both.

How about the Law of All? This is where every single Person has a home and all that they need. As I pondered this thread I recalled the collapse in America a few years ago - where two major mortgage banks/financial institutions failed and many many many People had their homes taken away. I later recall reading articles that stated there were enough empty homes to house every homeless Person in America. Picture me shaking my head in sadness.

How do we as Humans - supposedly sentient Beings - reconcile empty homes with the homeless? More importantly how do we reconcile the fact that there is ample space and there are ample resources for every single Human??? What's the adage: Money is the root of all evil? During discussions people have stated to me it is the 'love' of money that is the root of all evil. Who knows? Maybe having money and not losing your soul is the true test of what type of sentient Human Being a person is or becomes???

Sandy - how lovely that your relatives could see how full your life is and how enriched you have been for your experiences. Good for You.

Much Peace - as we seek answers for all our questions - Amanda

Paloma
10th October 2017, 00:25
How thought provoking - a millionaire/billionaire who needs to get away from it ... exactly what are they getting away from I ponder????? Sometimes charity work is actually a front for tax rebate/dodge/whatever? I do not know the wealthy person in question so I cannot make any assessment on a personal level. I still think that we should ask some homeless people what they think of the Law of Both.

How about the Law of All? This is where every single Person has a home and all that they need. As I pondered this thread I recalled the collapse in America a few years ago - where two major mortgage banks/financial institutions failed and many many many People had their homes taken away. I later recall reading articles that stated there were enough empty homes to house every homeless Person in America. Picture me shaking my head in sadness.

How do we as Humans - supposedly sentient Beings - reconcile empty homes with the homeless? More importantly how do we reconcile the fact that there is ample space and there are ample resources for every single Human??? What's the adage: Money is the root of all evil? During discussions people have stated to me it is the 'love' of money that is the root of all evil. Who knows? Maybe having money and not losing your soul is the true test of what type of sentient Human Being a person is or becomes???

Sandy - how lovely that your relatives could see how full your life is and how enriched you have been for your experiences. Good for You.

Much Peace - as we seek answers for all our questions - Amanda

Amanda, you stated the law of ALL, as an alternative to the law of BOTH.
I feel that perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from.
The law of ALL and the law of BOTH are meant to be one and the same.
I guess I didn't make myself very clear.

"Both" meaning the reconciling of two opposites. This AND that...BOTH. Like the term "I'm ok, you're ok" from Transactional Analysis. There was a book once with that title. The goal being that everyone is ok. Everyone. You AND Me. WIN WIN.

With reconciling those opposites of wealth and poverty you will no longer have wealthy people looking down on poor people with disdain, nor poor people being resentful of those who have wealth. Then both lifestyles are a simple matter of choice.
Total equality is not possible. Not even two grains of rice are ever exactly alike.

Paloma
12th October 2017, 13:32
Both alt media and mainstream are finally exposing Hollywood sleeze bags.
New Yorker article on Harvey Weinstein 's hotel room Miss Conduct.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/jia-tolentino/how-men-like-harvey-weinstein-implicate-their-victims-in-their-acts

Paloma
12th October 2017, 14:03
Here are the gory details:
Harvey Weinstein's victims telling their story.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/from-aggressive-overtures-to-sexual-assault-harvey-weinsteins-accusers-tell-their-stories

Dreamtimer
13th October 2017, 03:52
After seeing his image so much I don't want to read these and see his face in my mind. :vom:

sandy
13th October 2017, 03:57
These stories evoke anger, digust and sorrow..............the dynamics of power once again pervert goodness in too many ways to mention. :(

araucaria
27th October 2017, 12:53
Bothness is duality. Duality gets a bad press, but those who place the emphasis on oneness are looking in the wrong direction. Unless they understand infinite oneness as actual multiplicity. What has been created is infinite otherness. The source of evil in the world is ultimately the overweening ego where otherness is entirely taken over by self. The principle of Both is fundamental in rejecting that. The intuition I want to explore is that the Both principle is subverted by itself, in other words, you have BOTH the Both principle and... something else. This cannot be done in a couple of sentences, because understanding only develops as one goes along; so please bear with me.

I’d like to discuss in a single post two very different intellectual achievements from this angle of bothness, which is something I do a lot. This is not the clash of opposites to be reconciled. On the contrary it is about finding a possibly unlikely common denominator whereby the same thing is being said in very different ways. I have been reading Michael Newton’s two books on life between lives, Journey of Souls and Destiny of Souls.
http://bookpdfg0ekewing.blogspot.fr/2017/08/download-ebook-journey-of-souls-case.html
http://www.unicusmagazine.com/PDF/Destiny%20of%20Souls%20-%20New%20Case%20Studies%20of%20Life%20Between%20Li ves.pdf
And I have been listening on the radio to commentaries on Puccini’s Tosca and the opera itself (a week ago now).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b098n4hq
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0993rbh#play

What is the common denominator here? It is the need for BOTH fiction and fact, because fiction is in many ways truer than fact. Hence truth-seekers are looking in the wrong direction. Unless they factor in the truth of fiction.

Michael Newton’s biggest fiction is death. For there to be such a thing as between lives at all means that death as currently understood is a false fact, or a fiction. This introduces bothness into the very heart of the soul, if I am allowed to mix my metaphors... It means that one soul can be two or many more human beings, both X and Y, both man and woman, both perpetrator and victim, etc etc. But the fiction does not stop there. According to Newton’s hundreds of patients, they spend their time in the spirit world holding inquests into past lives and not only planning their next lives, but rehearsing a whole play to be put on with members of their soul group and other groups. ‘All the world’s a stage’ as Shakespeare famously said, but he said it on a stage – and so it was taken as unbelievable fiction. Not so: it would seem to be the basic fact of life.

Hence we have another Both-And: everything becomes both hugely unimportant – because we can try try try again until we get something right – and hugely important – because every time we mess up for ourselves, we mess up for others. Life on earth is a special kind of play because we don’t get to memorize the script; we have to improvise from day one; all we have tried to memorize are some clues to watch out for – major milestones telling us to marry this person, follow that profession... – and if we miss these at some stage we may well stray not only from the script but even from the entire plot. But the show must go on; the important thing is how we cope when this happens. When you mess up, you are not supposed to bail out by committing suicide (this is stated several times) or ditch someone else by killing them (this I infer from the above); you are expected to deal with the situation, find a solution. If you get into a rut of real evil, you don’t go to hell, but you do get sin-binned/sidelined for a while: you punish yourself.

You see what happens to the predestiny/free will debate. It is not either/or but both/and. You use free will when you have forgotten your lines; your predestiny is real enough when you recognize the milestones. But if you are yourself predetermining that destiny, then it is just more free will. Notice how both/and does NOT require a perfect balance. The universe has to be predominantly benevolent in order to hold together at all.

This means that evil in the world is not a necessity, although it is bound to happen to some degree. It is a factor of inefficiency, like a motor that needs tuning to get maximum efficiency. The purpose of multiple lives being to tune the collective motor. Bad things happen accidentally because we are all at some stage of a learning process, learning from our mistakes. Deliberately doing evil then becomes a step in the wrong direction. Hence the overall situation is very much not all about me; it is about me’s fitting in together – bothness on the way to infinity.

One of the really interesting things one learns about the other side is that you can enjoy a delicious orange, a splash in the ocean or the joys of sex, but for the real physical experience, you need to come to Earth. That is also what we come for, not just the spiritual education. We need both spiritual education and physical education. Another is the interest in music; according to Michael Newton:


People in deep hypnosis explain that musical thought is the language of souls. The composition and transmission of harmonic resonance appears to relate to the formation and presentation of spiritual language. Far beyond musical communication, I'm told spiritual harmonics are the building blocks of energy creation and soul unification.

This being the other-worldly situation as corroborated by hundreds of people (note how for what you read in the newspapers, corroboration starts with just two or three), it is interesting to note how many creative souls end up doing things that are actually a commentary on who they really are. They become involved in all kinds of fiction: art, writing, theatre... creating and playing fictional characters and sometimes fictionalizing ‘real’ people. This is the case with Giacomo Puccini and the original author of the play Tosca, Victorien Sardou, whose characters include an honest painter, Cavaradossi, and his lover, the devout opera singer Tosca, alongside the villain, the evil chief of police, Baron Scarpia, who wants the rebel dead and his lover for himself. Puccini’s intense theatricality is too much for many musical purists; deliberately so, because it is not all about the music. It is not singers dressing up and trying to act; it is full-blooded musical drama. Both music and drama.

The potential problem is that music itself is a hybrid: not entirely intellectual. You don’t make music with the mind, but with the body, producing sound wave frequencies that reverberate through the air/ether. A highbrow person will dismiss music he doesn’t like as middle-brow or lowbrow. What he is not getting at all is this other component which has nothing to do with the brow at all. The music of the likes of Puccini is aimed both at the head and at the gut, which the musical snob simply cannot... stomach.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosca

In Act I, the painter is painting a Madonna in a church. Tosca is jealous because the portrait reminds her of someone else, the Marquesa Attavanti, who is not a character on stage but who comes to her family chapel to pray, making her an ‘ideal’ model, both there and not there. Tosca is only pretending to be jealous, asking him to change the colour of the eyes. But she has good reason to be jealous, because Cavaradossi is behaving suspiciously, trying to hide the fact that he is hiding someone in the chapel. But it turns out to be the brother and fellow rebel Angelotti whom he is helping to escape. And the prima donna has good reason not to be jealous, because this is a sacred icon he is painting, and her piety, especially here in church, does not allow jealousy, especially of the Madonna.

Then Scarpia bursts in, looking for his prisoner, arresting Cavaradossi and lusting after Tosca, although he begins by scolding the excited choir boys for disrespect in church, and ends by remembering God and singing along for the Te Deum with hypocritical devotion. More pretending.

In Act II, Cavaradossi is tortured offstage to find out the whereabouts of Angelotti. This works on several fictional levels. He says he doesn’t know, which is true when you consider the theatrical situation. Angelotti’s part is over by this point, and for all he knows the singer could be anywhere; he may have gone home. Meanwhile Tosca can be heard singing a cantata in the courtyard until Scarpia slams the window shut. Again two levels: the singer for once explicitly singing, while for the rest of the time she and the others are singing they are implicitly speaking, i.e. pretending. She is brought on stage and reveals the painter’s secret because while he scorns the physical torture, she is overcome by the mental torture. There is an interesting reversal here: the physical reality is taken off-stage, while the focus is on the work of the mind. It is as if the action has moved off-world. The tenor can well withstand the physical torture because it is not for real. As one commentator explains, what he is actually doing between screams is changing out of his clean shirt into one ‘bloodied’ with red paint. For a painter donning this painted cloth, this is literally like getting inside his painting, and becoming his own Madonna.

What happens from the audience’s viewpoint is that they get the full emotional experience of torture vicariously: like Tosca through empathizing with another. But in contrast with the fictional character, simply by entertaining ideas of torture, without any such being actually carried out. The tortured man is probably just sitting down resting, but the audience share the traumatic experience merely through a little play-acting and some menacing-sounding music, by empathizing with someone empathizing – not even that: with someone pretending with great conviction to empathize. It is manipulative trickery that some will not like at all, but if it develops empathy in a harmless way where no one gets hurt, maybe some of the reticence is misplaced or too this-worldly. It brings a victim’s-eye view of the type provided by karmic role-swapping. In other words, if it persuades one to avoid the pain by avoiding causing the pain, then the lesson can be learnt through mere fiction, instead of having to go through with the whole business for real. This corresponds to what most people would consider to be building a better world.

Michael Newton’s focus is not on building a better world per se, simply because he takes one soul, or small group, at a time. So we have to extrapolate in order to imagine how this bigger picture might develop. Art and notably the theatre are ways of doing this. One of his clients talks about a place, the ‘Space of Transformation’, where he can practise this kind of catharsis:

S: (takes a deep breath) I can identify pain, but in order to diffuse it in the human body I assimilate it. This eventually makes me ineffective. I become a sponge rather than a mirror of light. Here I can practice my art.
S: I learn to manipulate my energy rather than absorb pain. The energy belt of compassion is like a liquid pool where I can swim and become part of the emotion in an experience which is so subjective I cannot describe it to you. It assists me in working on calmness within a sea of adversity. It is wondrous... it is... alive.

After he is taken off for execution, Scarpia bargains with Tosca to save him: a mock execution with a safe passage in return for sexual favours. Before she gives in, she sings the famous aria Vissi d’arte asking God what she did wrong to end up in this hell. While Scarpia drafts the document, Tosca seizes a knife from his supper table, and when he has his Weinsteinian moment she stabs him to death. Penetration takes place, only the male and female roles are reversed. When in Act III she recounts the story to her lover, she is very much the one in charge, and he plays the ‘feminine’ role of inactive admirer. For the mock execution, Tosca tells him, Cavaradossi must fall like an artist, the way she herself does on stage. However, it turns out to be a ‘fake mock execution’, a double lie, something she and the first-time viewer only find out when he fails to get up.

Hence you have a complex Schrodinger’s cat-type whereby an actor is pretending to die for real (he knows how the story turns out), while pretending to pretend to die (like a fictional artist, Tosca), i.e. BOTH pretending not to pretend to die AND still not dying for real (as the real-life tenor). It gets rather complicated, but the bottom line is that the flesh-and-blood guy will get up and take a bow – which is how Michael Newton’s dead people are welcomed back in the spirit world after dying for their earth audience. In other words, all this pretence seems to be a true reflection of the larger reality of reincarnating souls... A paradox? Yes, a seeming contradiction. A dilemma? Yes: ‘when you come to a fork in the road, take it’ (Yogi Berra).

At the end Tosca is about to seized for Scarpia’s murder but she escapes arrest by leaping off the castle battlements into the Tiber/to a soft landing in the wings. Her last words, ‘O Scarpia, avanti a Dio’ (see you on the other side) are hardly final, since they suggest unfinished business for an after-life post-mortem. So, what the hell has been going on? Is there something here to help answer Tosca’s question?

Perhaps in all these levels of fiction, Scarpia’s lethal contribution is something in the order of material fact. What I think may have happened in early history is that some incarnating soul, rather than exploring deeper and deeper layers of ‘fiction’, i.e. life with some degree of unreality, decided that in pretending to pretend, the pretence cancelled itself out, and this somehow made him real. This is encapsulated in the story of Adam and Eve. Eating of the tree of knowledge was forbidden as being a dangerous activity and a Pandora’s box where there was no going back. Once you become for real, then so does everyone and everything else. A knife will start to cut; you can no longer pretend to stab someone. They will die ‘for real’. Or at least they and you will die for real within the bounds of this reality; this is no longer true once you step out of it.

Hence reality is itself a fiction, but no longer an innocent one. Potential situations harden into facts, things become carved in stone, and before you know it you have dogmatists, bible-thumpers and other controllers breathing down your neck with weapons that really do hurt. ‘Where is Angelotti’ (he has got to be somewhere)? The innocent answer no longer works: ‘Where’s Angelotti? I don’t know; he’s around somewhere.’ That’s what it means to be free. No one needs to know where you are or what you are doing – people in retirement either love it or hate it. But Angelotti is supposed to be chained up in prison; his freedom is rebellion, we can’t have that. The trouble with other-worldly telepathy is that you could call Angelotti 24/7. In that sense, he couldn’t escape, but on the other hand he could, because you would respect his privacy. Down here, some of these telepaths have learned to consider that he owes them something. He doesn’t.

Written in 1900 and looking back to 1800, Puccin’s Tosca was ahead of its time in taking us into a world of both this and that. The backdrop is the moment after the Battle of Marengo when the outcome is undecided: at first Scarpia’s camp is reported to have won, later the rebels siding with Napoleon’s revolutionary forces (before Napoleon became a dictator) – so everyone gets to celebrate. Tosca is not jealous, but she is jealous enough for Scarpia to get some leverage out of it. She is a weak woman and also a strong man. Angelotti is an elusive particle that we only see fleetingly at the beginning. Later he is supposedly hiding in a well, alive then dead. Cavaradossi ends up both dead and alive. And Scarpia, Scarpia the great controller controls very little. His prisoner and rival escapes, and so does his female prey, who even takes him out (he didn’t see that coming). His sexual encounter is a sham anyway; spasms of fury, spasms of love, it is all the same to him, Tosca does not even need to pretend. His presence is more effective in the last act when he is no longer strutting around the stage. He takes responsibility for two more deaths; the deaths are unreal, but from his own chosen standpoint, the responsibility is very real. Everything is in flux, except for this one hard ‘fact’.

The trouble with ‘facts’ is that they lead BOTH to evil outcomes and to advancement. In terms of knowledge, slowing things right down from energy frequencies to matter frequencies is a tremendous tool; like playing back a movie film in slow motion, or even studying individual stills, you discover so much more. This is where technology comes into the picture, as something commandeered by the cabal. But the hard facts one learns are not the reality, any more than the stills are the movie, or the movie the reality. What we are seeing nowadays is the softening of these facts back into a kind of probability wave/cloud. The JFK assassination, for example, ever in the news, is a kind of Schrodinger’s cat experiment in reverse. We start out with a dead president/cat, and work our way back to a totally theoretical place where all possible scenarios are on the table together. This is a sign that we have gone too far and are looking for a way back. The weaponization of Earth eventually gets out of hand. Sometimes a civilization will collapse with a global reset and a cyclical new age, and occasionally a planet will actually explode. The best we can do is try and see if this cycle is easier than the last, and harder than the next. By this stage the picture has grown so huge that souls can only get back to the individual and collective task of learning together to outgrow the need for reincarnation.

We need to see how two things happened together here, one very negative, the other very positive: BOTH JFK the man was killed by person(s) unknown or known, traumatizing the world, AND the world’s most powerful control base (the US presidency) was dealt a body blow, by the cabal itself. Hence the controversy over whether JFK was a part of the cabal or a good man fighting it, or more likely the one growing into the other, is ultimately a distraction. ‘JFK’ is just the past life of some soul who has moved on, i.e. pretended to die. The bottom line is that the cabal bubble is gradually bursting. We don’t need such hard facts any more; what we need is tolerance.

Interestingly, one by-product of this is that it helps to understand and deal with pathological liars. They embody both extremes of pretence and factuality, relying on both and substituting one for the other. In a context where pretending is the rule, the supply of ‘factual’ credibility they crave for is actually cut off. If one responds to them as fascinating story-tellers rather than important truth-tellers, then they can be of value both to oneself and to society at large. If the cabal bubble is gradually bursting, it is largely due to the changing status of the pathological liars. Both they and we are discovering that they need us more than we need them. Hence, as their audience wises up and sees that they don’t need to know, but can tolerantly listen, they may find it necessary to modify the way they relate to these issues, and the insoluble problem of sociopathic liars will fade away like last year’s flu.

Tolerance is the engineering term for the range of dimensions within which a component will function. BOTH precision is required (as a not always attainable ideal) AND a degree of imprecision is allowed. This is where idealism is tempered with pragmatism: workability as a concept is more forgiving than fundamentalist idealism. There are multiple solutions that will work, and while yours may be different from mine, BOTH will get the job done.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?63451-The-Secret-Architecture-of-France--s-Capital&p=748408&viewfull=1#post748408
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1150664&viewfull=1#post1150664
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54731-What-is-Truth&p=622591&viewfull=1#post622591

NotAPretender
27th October 2017, 13:49
Fear of death as described by Heidegger and Ken Wilber is 'active nothining' i.e. anxiety.

The drive to reconcile perceived opposites is indicative of the healthy mind. Those that can't will find themselves stuck in double-bind conundrums and will be actively engaged in making themselves and those around them very unhappy.

Dreamtimer
27th October 2017, 15:17
That was a very interesting and engaging post, auracaria. Now I want to watch/listen to Tosca.

Your discussion of the time between lives where things are set up is very interesting. I find that dynamic exists in the Dreamtime. We can rehearse the whole play in between lives. We can also do this in the Dreamtime. We step out of the bounds of space and time and have the opportunity to take that fork and see what might happen. Additionally, many dreaming cultures used drama in waking life to act out dreams in order to help bring them forth or avoid them, depending.

The liars are losing their audience and thus their power. Is our current President, I wonder, a kind of last gasp of this old order?

NotAPretender
27th October 2017, 15:58
Hi Dreamtimer,

yes, they have been increasingly desperate for quite a few years now. They have been forced out of the closet and in so doing have exposed themselves as completely unbalanced nad self-destructive to the extreme, which isn't new but somehow has escaped attention for millennia.

NAP

Paloma
27th October 2017, 21:13
Thanks, araucaria, for going a little bit deeper into this topic. And also for shedding a new light on opera. Brilliant minds at work, all around.

My own "both" moment here is to deal with two strong impulses simultaneously, one of which is
to inspect the construction work which we started here at home, yesterday. After much procrastination we decided to enclose our outside living room with glass walls and glass sliding doors, integrating it with the indoor living room, thus prohibiting insect intruders as well as dozens of large toads entrance to our home, and even denying them the pleasure of eating and being eaten.
The lights attract insects at night, and so dozens of toads follow them, and then basically move in. After stuffing themselves they are unable to move and so they remain there until the morning. It has become intolerable.

The other desire or impulse was to give you the kind of response that your thoughtful post merits.
First of all, let me quote what I thought was your best sentence:
" By this stage the picture has grown so huge that souls can only get back to the individual and collective task of learning together to outgrow the need for reincarnation."
I can't think of a better summary of what life is about.

Individual lives are to find their place in the collective, becoming a well-functioning cell in the body of humankind.
Can that happen while the body of humankind is going through premature decomposition? Or perhaps it is just shedding old skin?
Gettng out of PA and directing my perception towards the latter I found fresh energy and purpose.

Thanks so much for joining us here. It will keep my head spinning in an upwards direction.

Paloma
27th October 2017, 21:46
Thinking of all sorts of bothness, led me to temperature, which in turn got me thinking of absolute zero, which seems to have as an opposite infinite heat.
So then I found this website: http://www.iflscience.com/physics/journey-other-side-absolute-zero/
And there I came across this surprising statement:

Understanding temperature

The concept of temperature is intimately connected to the concept of disorder. Typically, a high degree of order corresponds to a low temperature. A perfect order is tantamount to absolute zero and a maximum possible disorder corresponds to an infinite temperature.

Ice crystals are more ordered than boiling water and, as intuition tells us, ice is indeed colder than hot water. By adding more energy in the water molecules will cause their motion to become ever more chaotic and disordered, thus increasing their temperature.

But under certain very special circumstances, a system may become more ordered when more energy is added beyond a critical value which corresponds to an infinite temperature.

Such a system is then characterised by negative absolute temperature. Continuing to add more energy in such a system would ultimately render it perfectly ordered at which point it would have reached negative absolute zero.

If the positive absolute zero is the point at which all motion stops, then the negative absolute zero is the point where all motion is as fast as it possibly can be.

https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/files/61113/width668/ww26jfdv-1412735271.jpg

Since we are talking about both matter and spirit here, and the transformation point where one becomes the other, and vice versa, I recall a saying I heard years ago, that spirit is matter, at its highest. And matter is spirit, at its lowest.
It's all just a matter of temperature, or energy.

sandy
28th October 2017, 05:54
Very pragmatic and ultimately thought provoking thread and posts...............my head hurts :hmm:


The only real constant is movement/energy, seen and unseen, including purpose whether Universal or Individual; it all serves Sources mission here on earth.

CREATION :magic:,

Paloma
28th October 2017, 08:18
Very pragmatic and ultimately thought provoking thread and posts...............my head hurts :hmm:


The only real constant is movement/energy, seen and unseen, including purpose whether Universal or Individual; it all serves Sources mission here on earth.

CREATION :magic:,

Your head hurts?
There, there, have some pulsed electro-magnetic energy to make it better.
Works faster than the speed of light.

Paloma
28th October 2017, 08:25
According to the comments this is the best recording ever made.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkMx0CLWeRQ

Elen
28th October 2017, 08:27
Tolerance is the engineering term for the range of dimensions within which a component will function. BOTH precision is required (as a not always attainable ideal) AND a degree of imprecision is allowed. This is where idealism is tempered with pragmatism: workability as a concept is more forgiving than fundamentalist idealism. There are multiple solutions that will work, and while yours may be different from mine, BOTH will get the job done.



Thank you for speaking to both my mind and my heart. Loved your interpretation of Tosca. Pretending to be dead is truth to every one who has had an NDE. ;)

A little taste of Tosca...3:21


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OIExoUb8jk

Elen
28th October 2017, 13:31
This is an addendum to the post of araucaria on page 2 where he recommended the book by Michael Newton, which can be downloaded for free. This is verbal book for those that enjoy listening more than reading.


In the introduction to Journey of Souls I explained
my background as a
traditional hypnotherapist and how skeptical I had
been about the use
of hypnosis for metaphysical regression. In 1947,
at age fifteen, I
placed my first subject in hypnosis, so I was defin
itely old school and
nota New Ager. Thus, when I unintentionally opened
the gateway to the
spirit world with a client, I was stunned. It seem
ed to me that most
past life regressionists thought our life between l
ives was just a hazy
limbo that only served as a bridge from one past li
fe to the next. It
was soon evident I had to find out for myself the s
teps necessary to
reach and unlock a subject's memory of their existe
nce in this
mysterious place. After more years of quiet resear
ch, I was finally
able to construct a working model of spirit world s
tructure and
realized how therapeutic this process could be for
a client. I also
found that it did not matter if a person was an ath
eist, deeply
religious, or believed in any philosophical persuas
ion in between once
they were in the proper super conscious state of hy
pnosis, all were
consistent in their reports. It was for this reaso
n that I became what
I have come to call a spiritual regressionist. Thi
s is ahypnotherapist
specializing in life after death.


4:57:24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLAOOElNUlk

Paloma
30th October 2017, 20:38
Can one be both...shepherd and flock?
Just thinking of sheep made me manifest pictures of sheeply flocks.
https://scontent.fsyq1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/23004517_10214498908612421_47753022205162730_o.jpg ?oh=6f6971a3ef7b03f87b48b5d716848278&oe=5AAE99E0

https://scontent.fsyq1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22886177_10214498905252337_5685679951137514666_n.j pg?oh=9f7f84b0757c6db02993be422747627d&oe=5AA9FEA9

NotAPretender
30th October 2017, 20:45
I don't really Grok the meme, "As above, so below" but it seems appropriate here... :)

Paloma
30th October 2017, 21:10
I don't really Grok the meme, "As above, so below" but it seems appropriate here... :)

This meme can be understood on various levels.
Here we have an areal view of what is below, sheep grazing.
But they really look more like their inner wolf, collectively.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3199/2313504853_261a749e3b_z.jpg?zz=1

NotAPretender
30th October 2017, 21:14
ahh, interesting...thanks!

Paloma
30th October 2017, 21:33
Meanwhile flamingoes seem to be more authentic, collectively.
Maybe because they can fly?
http://media.sundance.tv/UPLOADS/blog/wordpress/images/2010/11/Aerial-view-of-a-flock-of-flamingos.jpeg

NotAPretender
30th October 2017, 21:37
Do you know why flamingoes stand on one leg?

Because they'd fall over if they didn't. Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk!

Octopus Garden
31st October 2017, 03:10
Being homeless as a an aspiration to serve others? Sounds like the poverty stricken have already been served and poorly. Now its time to EAT the rich.

araucaria
1st November 2017, 21:01
According to the comments this is the best recording ever made.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkMx0CLWeRQ
This is the recording I heard several times over at the house of an opera/theatre buff in the early seventies. Angela Gheorghiu is the closest thing to Callas, and has sometimes been said to have copied her. Obviously at this level of accomplishment, imitation is not an option.

On the same subject of female responses to male aggression, last week my daughter sold a young stallion called Everest at an auction for 3-year-old showjumpers, mostly fillies and geldings, which lasted a week for training, visits and three days of auctions. She and her friend came in for some severe machismo from other breeders, who said rearing by young women of stallions was not the way to go: they (the horses) needed taking in hand. They just said he was a lovely horse, probably because weak females had to find other ways to make it thrive. She also said she had put it out to graze: you did what?! Oh yes, and eat lots of lovely apples – mental training instead of jumping over sticks. One guy she described as a real torturer, but he could not sell his horses. When Everest fetched twice the second best price, they just smiled and said, ‘Not bad for a couple of girls!’

Octopus Garden
1st November 2017, 21:38
Amanda, you stated the law of ALL, as an alternative to the law of BOTH.
I feel that perhaps you misunderstood where I was coming from.
The law of ALL and the law of BOTH are meant to be one and the same.
I guess I didn't make myself very clear.

"Both" meaning the reconciling of two opposites. This AND that...BOTH. Like the term "I'm ok, you're ok" from Transactional Analysis. There was a book once with that title. The goal being that everyone is ok. Everyone. You AND Me. WIN WIN.

With reconciling those opposites of wealth and poverty you will no longer have wealthy people looking down on poor people with disdain, nor poor people being resentful of those who have wealth. Then both lifestyles are a simple matter of choice.
Total equality is not possible. Not even two grains of rice are ever exactly alike.

Narrowing the disparity in income would be a start. There are many ways this can be done practically. In 2008 capitalism essentially collapsed in the U.S. replaced by corporate fascism, which had been gaining power and traction well before the Lehman crisis.

Nobody should have to make a choice between poverty and super wealth or have the opportunity to feel the disdain or jealousy and resentment that extremes engender.

Russian + mega yacht + cover of philanthropy= crook.

NotAPretender
1st November 2017, 21:58
This is the recording I heard several times over at the house of an opera/theatre buff in the early seventies. Angela Gheorghiu is the closest thing to Callas, and has sometimes been said to have copied her. Obviously at this level of accomplishment, imitation is not an option.

On the same subject of female responses to male aggression, last week my daughter sold a young stallion called Everest at an auction for 3-year-old showjumpers, mostly fillies and geldings, which lasted a week for training, visits and three days of auctions. She and her friend came in for some severe machismo from other breeders, who said rearing by young women of stallions was not the way to go: they (the horses) needed taking in hand. They just said he was a lovely horse, probably because weak females had to find other ways to make it thrive. She also said she had put it out to graze: you did what?! Oh yes, and eat lots of lovely apples – mental training instead of jumping over sticks. One guy she described as a real torturer, but he could not sell his horses. When Everest fetched twice the second best price, they just smiled and said, ‘Not bad for a couple of girls!’

Well, that s*cks! Encourage them with their strengths (Such as being smart enough to not say such stupid stuff!) I don't recommend stoking the fires of gender wars. No one wins...Girls are raised bitter and hostile. Bitter and hostile men just become more bitter and hostile. I've lived through that war! Admittedly, it was raising my daughter that provided the epiphany but that goes to the crux of who and what we are nurtured to think and feel. And sometimes circumstances just take the lead.


Narrowing the disparity in income would be a start. There are many ways this can be done practically. In 2008 capitalism essentially collapsed in the U.S. replaced by corporate fascism, which had been gaining power and traction well before the Lehman crisis.

Nobody should have to make a choice between poverty and super wealth or have the opportunity to feel the disdain or jealousy and resentment that extremes engender.

Russian + mega yacht + cover of philanthropy= crook.

I agree completely, OG!

Paloma
3rd November 2017, 14:05
Today's both moment: woke after a nightmare, and having studied my dreams most of my life, and even the dreams of anyone else who wanted to share theirs, I usually try to figure out if a dream was a stress release, or if it was to be a premonition. Since I have a severe Saturn transit approaching I figured it might be another warning/premonition.
But then I thought some more, and got reminded that life's patterns are cyclical, and that it could easily have been a release dream as well, of a past event that now might reappear in a new form.

The dream was about me being in a room which was also a large elevator, in a tall building, and with me were husband and friends, and suddenly the cable snapped and we were rushing towards the floor. And we were preparung for the impact. It became quite intricate, withh us placing cushions al around, etc.
In the end everyone survived, and there were even apologies from the management of the tower, and promises of compensation. The dream ended with us lining up at some window where we were to collect a refund of sorts.

Hitting the bottom is never fun, but I have learnt (as a Capricorn) that it is 3D reality and it needs to be embraced and lived.
All else is speculation, or fantasy.
I will continue and accept whatever comes, no fear, and deal with it when it arrives.
And be as ok withh it as I would have been had the dream be merely a stress release.
Because only with that attitude can past and future be ok, on both counts.

NotAPretender
3rd November 2017, 14:45
Today's both moment: woke after a nightmare, and having studied my dreams most of my life, and even the dreams of anyone else who wanted to share theirs, I usually try to figure out if a dream was a stress release, or if it was to be a premonition. Since I have a severe Saturn transit approaching I figured it might be another warning/premonition.
But then I thought some more, and got reminded that life's patterns are cyclical, and that it could easily have been a release dream as well, of a past event that now might reappear in a new form.

The dream was about me being in a room which was also a large elevator, in a tall building, and with me were husband and friends, and suddenly the cable snapped and we were rushing towards the floor. And we were preparung for the impact. It became quite intricate, withh us placing cushions al around, etc.
In the end everyone survived, and there were even apologies from the management of the tower, and promises of compensation. The dream ended with us lining up at some window where we were to collect a refund of sorts.

Hitting the bottom is never fun, but I have learnt (as a Capricorn) that it is 3D reality and it needs to be embraced and lived.
All else is speculation, or fantasy.
I will continue and accept whatever comes, no fear, and deal with it when it arrives.
And be as ok withh it as I would have been had the dream be merely a stress release.
Because only with that attitude can past and future be ok, on both counts.

when you mentioned the saturn transit i assumed you were a capricorn... :tiphat:

Paloma
3rd November 2017, 14:48
when you mentioned the saturn transit i assumed you were a capricorn... :tiphat:
Actually, Saturn transits can affect all signs.
The impact is often felt hardest by non-Caps, because they are not as used to Saturnian (restrictive) energies as Capricorns are.

NotAPretender
3rd November 2017, 15:50
yes, Saturn, the Celestial Taskmaster. It ain't always fun...

Octopus Garden
4th November 2017, 21:13
You got it, Amanda.
I believe that even a so-called lazy person has something to offer as long as they are doing inner work, like meditators, and who strive for inner peace. Because that peace will radiate out, and have a positive affect on their environment.

So it would be worthwhile to consider a society where no one is shamed for being humble, living a humble life style, and not being an achiever type.

However, I would still have issues with their opposite, people who are excessive thrill seekers. People who feel dead unless they live on the edge. Maybe someone can help me with that. I would like to find an angle where I can become 100% inclusive.

Further to this general idea, Paloma, would be a cultural attitude shift that honours the introvert as well as the extrovert.

People who live on the edge, by rock climbing, BASE jumping, etc..etc...are performing a valuable service, provided they limit their thrill seeking to something that will guarantee they don't live much past the age of reproduction.

The thrill seeking genes, also called the warrior genes, (absent tribal warfare that limits this type of individual's lifespan) accumulate in the gene pool, during periods of relative calm, until they are disproportionate.

This type should be steered towards activities that provide an outlet for them. If not, they can easily get their thrills from inter species predation, preying on their own kind.

So should we have a society that includes this type? I would say we already do and that they are largely responsible for shaping our culture in some profoundly negative ways. Are their any benefits? I don't know...what do you think?

NotAPretender
4th November 2017, 21:56
I'm not a big fan of most of these types but some heartily believe they serve a useful societal function:

Police, Firefolks, Concealed Carriers (some of them), EMT's, Surgeons, etc.

Paloma
5th November 2017, 03:11
Further to this general idea, Paloma, would be a cultural attitude shift that honours the introvert as well as the extrovert.

People who live on the edge, by rock climbing, BASE jumping, etc..etc...are performing a valuable service, provided they limit their thrill seeking to something that will guarantee they don't live much past the age of reproduction.

The thrill seeking genes, also called the warrior genes, (absent tribal warfare that limits this type of individual's lifespan) accumulate in the gene pool, during periods of relative calm, until they are disproportionate.

This type should be steered towards activities that provide an outlet for them. If not, they can easily get their thrills from inter species predation, preying on their own kind.

So should we have a society that includes this type? I would say we already do and that they are largely responsible for shaping our culture in some profoundly negative ways. Are their any benefits? I don't know...what do you think?

I've tried before to come up with an answer if there are any benefits, and I don't know either. I agree that they set a negative tone.
To me the are like mosquitos, and I consider them a nuisance.
An awake and aware society will perhaps make them obsolete, either by ignoring their antics, or by outright ridiculing them.