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Aragorn
21st September 2017, 04:23
Given that this is an article regarding neuroscience, I could just as easily have parked this thread under Medicine & Health, but as it's about one of the most important aspects of our being, I think Spirituality & Psyche suits it better. ;)













Consciousness Goes Deeper Than You Think


Awareness can be part of it, but it’s much more than that



https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/blogs/cache/file/0E9C334A-FDD0-4BD2-901DEE620ACDAB6B.jpg



Source: Scientific American (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think/)



An article on the neuroscience of infant consciousness (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/04/when-does-your-baby-become-conscious), which attracted some interest a few years ago, asked: “When does your baby become conscious?” The premise, of course, was that babies aren’t born conscious but, instead, develop consciousness at some point. (According to the article, it is about five months of age). Yet, it is hard to think that there is nothing it feels like to be a newborn.

Newborns clearly seem to experience (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/) their own bodies, environment, the presence of their parents, etcetera—albeit in an unreflective, present-oriented manner. And if it always feels like something to be a baby, then babies don’t become conscious. Instead, they are conscious from the get-go.

The problem is that, somewhat alarmingly, the word “consciousness” is often used in the literature as if it entailed or implied more than just the qualities of experience. Dijksterhuis and Nordgren, for instance, insisted (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1745-6916.2006.00007.x) that “it is very important to realize that attention is the key to distinguish between unconscious thought and conscious thought. Conscious thought is thought with attention.” This implies that if a thought escapes attention, then it is unconscious. But is the mere lack of attention enough to assert that a mental process lacks the qualities of experience? Couldn’t a process that escapes the focus of attention still feel like something?

Consider your breathing right now: the sensation of air flowing through your nostrils, the movements of your diaphragm, etcetera. Were you not experiencing these sensations a moment ago, before I directed your attention to them? Or were you just unaware that you were experiencing them all along? By directing your attention to these sensations, did I make them conscious or did I simply cause you to experience the extra quality of knowing that the sensations were conscious?

Indeed, Jonathan Schooler has established a clear distinction between conscious and meta-conscious processes (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(02)01949-6). Whereas both types entail the qualities of experience, meta-conscious processes also entail what he called re-representation. “Periodically attention is directed towards explicitly assessing the contents of experience. The resulting meta-consciousness involves an explicit re-representation of consciousness in which one interprets, describes or otherwise characterizes the state of one’s mind.

So where attention plays an important role is in re-representation; that is, the conscious knowledge of an experience, which underlies introspection. Subjects cannot report—not even to themselves—experiences that aren’t re-represented. Nothing, however, stops conscious experience from occurring without re-representation: Dreams, for instance, have been shown to lack re-representation (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232591797_The_philosophy_of_dreaming_and_self-consciousness_What_happens_to_the_experiential_sub ject_during_the_dream_state), despite the undeniable fact they are experienced in consciousness. This gap between reportability and the contents of consciousness has motivated the emergence of so-called “no-report paradigms (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(15)00252-1)” in the modern neuroscience of consciousness.

Clearly, the assumption that consciousness is limited to re-represented mental contents under the focus of attention mistakenly conflates meta-consciousness with consciousness proper. Yet, this conflation is disturbingly widespread. Consider Axel Cleeremans’s words (http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00086/full): “Awareness…always seems to minimally entail the ability of knowing that one knows. This ability, after all, forms the basis for the verbal reports we take to be the most direct indication of awareness. And when we observe the absence of such ability to report on the knowledge involved in our decisions, we rightfully conclude the decision was based on unconscious knowledge.”

Because the study of the Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC) is, by and large, dependent on subjective reports of experience (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain-sciences/article/div-classtitleunconscious-influences-on-decision-making-a-critical-reviewdiv/86885344F7E8A44457C3FC63CFA3F3AF), what passes for the NCC is liable to be merely the neural correlates of meta-consciousness. As such, potentially conscious mental activity—in the sense of activity correlated with experiential qualities—may evade recognition as such.

As a matter of fact, there is circumstantial but compelling evidence that this is precisely the case. To see it, notice first the conscious knowledge N—that is, the re-representation—of an experience X is triggered by the occurrence of X. For instance, it is the occurrence of a sense perception that triggers the metacognitive realization one is perceiving something. N, in turn, evokes X by directing attention back to it: the realization one is perceiving something naturally shifts one’s mental focus back to the original perception. So we end up with a back-and-forth cycle of evocations whereby X triggers N, which in turn evokes X, which again triggers N, and so forth.

As it turns out, characterizations of the NCC show precisely this pattern of reverberating back-and-forth communications among different brain regions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-conversation-in-the-brain/). Researchers suspect even that when damage to the primary visual cortex presumably interrupts an instance of this kind of reverberation, patients display blindsight (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(14)00133-8). That is, the ability to correctly discriminate moving objects despite the reported inability to see them. This is precisely what one would expect if the reverberation in question were the oscillations between X and N: The objects are consciously perceived—which therefore explains how the patients discriminate them—but the patients do not know they consciously perceive the objects.

By mistaking meta-consciousness for consciousness, we create two significant problems: First, we fail to distinguish between conscious processes that lack re-representation and truly unconscious processes. After all, both are equally unreportable to self and others. This misleads us to conclude there is a mental unconscious when, in reality, there may always be something it feels like to have each and every mental process in our psyche. Second, we fail to see our partial and tentative explanations for the alleged rise of consciousness may concern merely the rise of metacognition.

This is liable to create the illusion we are making progress toward solving the “hard problem of consciousness (http://www.consc.net/papers/nature.pdf)” when, in fact, we are bypassing it altogether: Mechanisms of metacognition are entirely unrelated to the problem of how the qualities of experience could arise from physical arrangements.

Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it may always be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitive configuration of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead.

Note: This essay is based on the paper, “There Is an ‘Unconscious,’ but It May Well Be Conscious (https://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/view/1388),” published in Europe’s Journal of Psychology, Vol. 13, No. 3, 559572.


Source: Scientific American (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think/)

Elen
21st September 2017, 10:09
Seems like science could possibly come to that place...it would be nice to see it finally happen. ;)

Gale Frierson
21st September 2017, 11:53
Seen from my perspective (81 years of age), I have seen much. Sleep is unconsciousness, but still has components of awakenness. After all, what is dreaming? Gregg Braden also does much on Science and Spirituality including Prayer) Hermes Trismegistus (35,000 years ago) (The Kybalion) speaks of the Universe being a mental state, with no REAL
physical Being. (The Divine Dichotomy). More to come....

Dreamtimer
21st September 2017, 12:04
My son's girlfriend is likely going to be studying neurology. She studied microbiology and neuropsychology as an undergrad. I'll share this with her.

I used to subscribe to Scientific American. Their 50, 100 and 150 years ago articles were always fun.

Emil El Zapato
21st September 2017, 13:42
Given that this is an article regarding neuroscience, I could just as easily have parked this thread under Medicine & Health, but as it's about one of the most important aspects of our being, I think Spirituality & Psyche suits it better. ;)













Consciousness Goes Deeper Than You Think


Awareness can be part of it, but it’s much more than that



https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/blogs/cache/file/0E9C334A-FDD0-4BD2-901DEE620ACDAB6B.jpg



Source: Scientific American (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think/)



An article on the neuroscience of infant consciousness (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/04/when-does-your-baby-become-conscious), which attracted some interest a few years ago, asked: “When does your baby become conscious?” The premise, of course, was that babies aren’t born conscious but, instead, develop consciousness at some point. (According to the article, it is about five months of age). Yet, it is hard to think that there is nothing it feels like to be a newborn.

Newborns clearly seem to experience (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/) their own bodies, environment, the presence of their parents, etcetera—albeit in an unreflective, present-oriented manner. And if it always feels like something to be a baby, then babies don’t become conscious. Instead, they are conscious from the get-go.

The problem is that, somewhat alarmingly, the word “consciousness” is often used in the literature as if it entailed or implied more than just the qualities of experience. Dijksterhuis and Nordgren, for instance, insisted (http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1745-6916.2006.00007.x) that “it is very important to realize that attention is the key to distinguish between unconscious thought and conscious thought. Conscious thought is thought with attention.” This implies that if a thought escapes attention, then it is unconscious. But is the mere lack of attention enough to assert that a mental process lacks the qualities of experience? Couldn’t a process that escapes the focus of attention still feel like something?

Consider your breathing right now: the sensation of air flowing through your nostrils, the movements of your diaphragm, etcetera. Were you not experiencing these sensations a moment ago, before I directed your attention to them? Or were you just unaware that you were experiencing them all along? By directing your attention to these sensations, did I make them conscious or did I simply cause you to experience the extra quality of knowing that the sensations were conscious?

Indeed, Jonathan Schooler has established a clear distinction between conscious and meta-conscious processes (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(02)01949-6). Whereas both types entail the qualities of experience, meta-conscious processes also entail what he called re-representation. “Periodically attention is directed towards explicitly assessing the contents of experience. The resulting meta-consciousness involves an explicit re-representation of consciousness in which one interprets, describes or otherwise characterizes the state of one’s mind.

So where attention plays an important role is in re-representation; that is, the conscious knowledge of an experience, which underlies introspection. Subjects cannot report—not even to themselves—experiences that aren’t re-represented. Nothing, however, stops conscious experience from occurring without re-representation: Dreams, for instance, have been shown to lack re-representation (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232591797_The_philosophy_of_dreaming_and_self-consciousness_What_happens_to_the_experiential_sub ject_during_the_dream_state), despite the undeniable fact they are experienced in consciousness. This gap between reportability and the contents of consciousness has motivated the emergence of so-called “no-report paradigms (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(15)00252-1)” in the modern neuroscience of consciousness.

Clearly, the assumption that consciousness is limited to re-represented mental contents under the focus of attention mistakenly conflates meta-consciousness with consciousness proper. Yet, this conflation is disturbingly widespread. Consider Axel Cleeremans’s words (http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpsyg.2011.00086/full): “Awareness…always seems to minimally entail the ability of knowing that one knows. This ability, after all, forms the basis for the verbal reports we take to be the most direct indication of awareness. And when we observe the absence of such ability to report on the knowledge involved in our decisions, we rightfully conclude the decision was based on unconscious knowledge.”

Because the study of the Neural Correlates of Consciousness (NCC) is, by and large, dependent on subjective reports of experience (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain-sciences/article/div-classtitleunconscious-influences-on-decision-making-a-critical-reviewdiv/86885344F7E8A44457C3FC63CFA3F3AF), what passes for the NCC is liable to be merely the neural correlates of meta-consciousness. As such, potentially conscious mental activity—in the sense of activity correlated with experiential qualities—may evade recognition as such.

As a matter of fact, there is circumstantial but compelling evidence that this is precisely the case. To see it, notice first the conscious knowledge N—that is, the re-representation—of an experience X is triggered by the occurrence of X. For instance, it is the occurrence of a sense perception that triggers the metacognitive realization one is perceiving something. N, in turn, evokes X by directing attention back to it: the realization one is perceiving something naturally shifts one’s mental focus back to the original perception. So we end up with a back-and-forth cycle of evocations whereby X triggers N, which in turn evokes X, which again triggers N, and so forth.

As it turns out, characterizations of the NCC show precisely this pattern of reverberating back-and-forth communications among different brain regions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-conversation-in-the-brain/). Researchers suspect even that when damage to the primary visual cortex presumably interrupts an instance of this kind of reverberation, patients display blindsight (http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(14)00133-8). That is, the ability to correctly discriminate moving objects despite the reported inability to see them. This is precisely what one would expect if the reverberation in question were the oscillations between X and N: The objects are consciously perceived—which therefore explains how the patients discriminate them—but the patients do not know they consciously perceive the objects.

By mistaking meta-consciousness for consciousness, we create two significant problems: First, we fail to distinguish between conscious processes that lack re-representation and truly unconscious processes. After all, both are equally unreportable to self and others. This misleads us to conclude there is a mental unconscious when, in reality, there may always be something it feels like to have each and every mental process in our psyche. Second, we fail to see our partial and tentative explanations for the alleged rise of consciousness may concern merely the rise of metacognition.

This is liable to create the illusion we are making progress toward solving the “hard problem of consciousness (http://www.consc.net/papers/nature.pdf)” when, in fact, we are bypassing it altogether: Mechanisms of metacognition are entirely unrelated to the problem of how the qualities of experience could arise from physical arrangements.

Consciousness may never arise—be it in babies, toddlers, children or adults—because it may always be there to begin with. For all we know, what arises is merely a metacognitive configuration of preexisting consciousness. If so, consciousness may be fundamental in nature—an inherent aspect of every mental process, not a property constituted or somehow generated by particular physical arrangements of the brain. Claims, grounded in subjective reports of experience, of progress toward reducing consciousness to brain physiology may have little—if anything—to do with consciousness proper, but with mechanisms of metacognition instead.

Note: This essay is based on the paper, “There Is an ‘Unconscious,’ but It May Well Be Conscious (https://ejop.psychopen.eu/article/view/1388),” published in Europe’s Journal of Psychology, Vol. 13, No. 3, 559572.


Source: Scientific American (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/consciousness-goes-deeper-than-you-think/)

Interesting, but it might be that we are headed to a Jungian Copenhagen Interpretation... :) or not. :)

I love that baby picture. Babies are fascinating creatures, plain and simple.

Elen
21st September 2017, 14:49
I love that baby picture. Babies are fascinating creatures, plain and simple.

Babies are like...ALL OF US (you and me)...if you disregard time. And then they say: "Time doesn't exist" ;)

Emil El Zapato
21st September 2017, 14:56
yeah, you're probably right... :)

I saw a research video some years ago testing baby perception and it was sooo cool! Pre-toddler babies have a very strong notion of what reality is supposed to present. And the testing showed that if it doesn't they become downright distressed. It was sad to see the distress induced but it was quite fascinating in what it demonstrated.

Elen
21st September 2017, 15:06
You mean like this?? :ha:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h5mwoTwDBk

Emil El Zapato
21st September 2017, 15:16
Gawd, that's mean! :)

When my daughter was a toddler she always had a habit of trying to get to containers of hot sauce. Her mom would freak out...everytime. I suggested she let her have her way and to let her decide if it was a good idea or not. She tried it one more time and it was the last time...Until recently...about 15 years later. :)

NAP

Though, it seems some of the babies like it...or are really really hungry...kind of like the 1st guy to eat an oyster... :)

Elen
21st September 2017, 15:45
Gawd, that's mean! :)

When my daughter was a toddler she always had a habit of trying to get to containers of hot sauce. Her mom would freak out...everytime. I suggested she let her have her way and to let her decide if it was a good idea or not. She tried it one more time and it was the last time...Until recently...about 15 years later. :)

NAP

Though, it seems some of the babies like it...or are really really hungry...kind of like the 1st guy to eat an oyster... :)

I think you can appreciate this, because of the hot sauce...my sister's eldest son was very interested in matches and how they worked...she would always take them away from him...i.e. hide them etc. until she decided to let him try them out for himself (under supervision). He burnt himself badly...not laughing...but I can tell you that he never ever wanted to fool around with matches ever again. They all survived, hey? :chrs:

P.S. We have mostly wooden houses in Norway. ;)

Emil El Zapato
21st September 2017, 15:59
yeah, I can truly appreciate that...burnt fingers never stopped me...however, handling razor blades did...ouch.

My younger brother nearly burned our house down ... the living room was ablaze and he came into the kitchen asking for a glass of water...I kid you not. :)

Elen
21st September 2017, 16:04
My younger brother nearly burned our house down ... the living room was ablaze and he came into the kitchen asking for a glass of water...I kid you not. :)

That made me laugh out loud...really laud!

Dreamtimer
21st September 2017, 16:20
Love the babies eating lemons. My son cringed like most kids do. I knew one child who really liked them. I did too, as a kid, but my Dad would yell at me telling me I was going to ruin my teeth.

The candy I ate did much more damage than anything else.

Elen
21st September 2017, 16:26
Love the babies eating lemons. My son cringed like most kids do. I knew one child who really liked them. I did too, as a kid, but my Dad would yell at me telling me I was going to ruin my teeth.

The candy I ate did much more damage than anything else.

Your dad was right to a certain degree...and you are right 100% with the candy! He should have let you eat the lemon, hey?

Dreamtimer
21st September 2017, 16:29
I have really craggy teeth so I was prone to cavities even with brushing. I really needed to not eat sweets. And I had a terrible sweet tooth! I still have all my teeth, and I have a lot of fillings - not amalgam, though. I replaced all that.

Aragorn
21st September 2017, 18:07
I have really craggy teeth so I was prone to cavities even with brushing. I really needed to not eat sweets. And I had a terrible sweet tooth! I still have all my teeth, and I have a lot of fillings - not amalgam, though. I replaced all that.

Even though the condition of one's teeth does depend on how well and how often you brush them — and what toothpaste you use — the truth of the matter is that it's mainly a genetic thing, and this has already been proven. The quality of the work done by the dentist also matters a lot. Modern techniques, technologies and dental repair products are much better than what they were 20 or 30 years ago, and many dentists back then were very eager to pull, even if the tooth could have been saved. Nutrition also matters — you need your vitamins — as does whether you smoke or not.

Myself, I am (sorely and sadly) missing over one third of my teeth already — it's almost all at the back, though at three of the four corners — and yet I have always taken very good care of my teeth. My brother is also missing a lot of his teeth already. My mom was missing several teeth by the time she was my age, and my dad had to have all of his teeth pulled by the time he was 30.

Anyway, the topic is consciousness, and considering that neuroscientists are now starting to concede to the purely Darwinian development of consciousness being only a narrow-minded fable, I think this article is very important. ;) :hmm:



:back to topic:

Emil El Zapato
21st September 2017, 20:07
ok aragorn,

I had a fellow student ask me if i believed one could straighten their teeth without braces, merely by wishing it so. It was a computer science class where the professor was always talking about fly fishing so I don't know how we got into the arena of 'consciousness' but I dutifully said, of course. Even though at the time I really had no idea. :)

haha, i've got one very every occasion. :eyebrows:

enjoy being
21st September 2017, 22:57
All that is a bit complex for my simple wee head. Though I don't really trust doctors and psychologists to really ever be on the right track as they don't tend to understand or account for spiritual factors in a childs early consciousness.
I did see some claim within some sort of advert or public notice recently that the first 1000 days of thoughts and stimulations, sets the stage of symbols that a child works with for life. Oh, I changed that a bit, they said, the things it experiences in the first 1000 days are the things it will gravitate to for life.

Teeth, I have nice, part plastic teeth these days, and I am only 43. That was a bit of everything.. diet, smoking, genetics on one side. Oh not everything, I was still good at brushing, just not enough to counter everything bad I was doing to them. That was last year, a massive year of change for me. I've now been non smoking for 15 months or so, no energy drinks for same amount of time. The biggest one was my diet, I had basically been starving myself by being too into thinking about other things and not having 'eating' as a thing in my thoughts. I can cook well and know about food, but had just got into a habit from living alone and being often busy and tired. The process of last year was almost laid in front of me to trip over. Meaning I didn't plan any of it, but looking back it seems well designed. Along the way there has had to be a fair bit of emotional adjustment. Say, the weekend following the weekend I had 16 teeth removed, my 19 year old cat went out in a storm and returned with her lower jaw broken right through the middle, helped along by her having pretty much the same teeth problems as I had..
What has happened to me in the last 12 months makes me ask many questions about conscious or unconscious process. One of the questions has been, do I really care about myself to have done all that by myself? I don't feel I did it, I didn't change this and give up that from fear or ultimatum. Well not those things, I actually gave them up before I had news on the state of my teeth, I was just doing it.. well for no real reason.
The change in diet after I ended up in hospital with jaundice was sort of pushed on me in a sense of ultimatum, but I just seemed to flick the switch and start eating properly.

Anyway, I sensed that it related to the topic, and liked the cross over with the toothy sub topic. I still find the article hard to read, but that is just me, certain kinds of scientific language makes me unable to focus.

Gale Frierson
22nd September 2017, 15:51
It is said babies start out as a "tabula rasa"--clean slate (mentally). Then as they begin to experience Life, the clean slate becomes overlain with the results of their experiences. Depending on the experience, they begin to formulate ideas of "Is this good, or bad; pleasant or unpleasant, etc.? To begin with they take in everything; then they begin to filter out that which they don't wish to keep in their "experiences banks". To start with they LOVE everything and everybody, but as they mature, they are TAUGHT to dislike or even HATE some things or persons.

Emil El Zapato
22nd September 2017, 15:55
Absolutely, and therein lay the crimes against humanity that we are all committing!

Gale Frierson
1st October 2017, 01:46
Regarding babies and small children, there's a very valuable lesson we can learn. Rodgers and Hammerstein in the musical "South Pacific" had a fascinating set of lyrics which went like this:
You've got to be taught
To hate and fear;
You've got be taught
From year to year;
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made.
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade.
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!
Now, the point is: BABIES DON'T HATE ANYONE
They LOVE everyone.
The teaching point IS: Hatred is LEARNED! It is NOT instinctive!
Some fears are inborn. A newborn has two fears--sudden loud noises
and being dropped.
EVERYTHING ELSE is learned. Many behaviors are necessary. Learning to cross the street safely. And many others.
I think you get the point. Teaching children respect for themselves and everyone else is important.

Dumpster Diver
1st October 2017, 02:35
I have really craggy teeth so I was prone to cavities even with brushing. I really needed to not eat sweets. And I had a terrible sweet tooth! I still have all my teeth, and I have a lot of fillings - not amalgam, though. I replaced all that.

Dreamy's "grill"

http://www.bluemaize.net/im/appliances/gold-grill-teeth-0.jpg

Dreamtimer
1st October 2017, 12:24
They call me Jaws, like the dude from Moonraker. I'm tall too, watch out!;)

I like how you can see the hands and camera reflected in the gold teeth. We need to get Decker in here with his photo analyzing equipment.



I believe the same regarding babies. They don't naturally hate. I do believe they come in with their consciousness which existed before birth. They come in with a personality. It's shaped by their lives and experience but it's already there from the beginning.