Grace Under Pressure [Archive]

Fred Steeves

8th January 2017, 17:00

Over the course of the last couple of years, I've become quite the connoisseur of citizen/police videoed interactions. Knowledge is certainly power, but so is one's conduct in exercising their Constitutional Rights here in the U.S. I would gladly buy this guy a beer for the way he handles himself in an obviously very stressful (and IMO unreasonable) situation. Of the thousands of these clips that I've watched and studied so far, this one is easily top 10.

You can make the police back off and stand down (if you're doing nothing wrong that is), but you had better know your shit and you had better do it right. Cop logic can be quite frustrating.

I enjoyed this clip tremendously, if you have 20 minutes to spare I think you will as well. He does everything right, and he does it politely demonstrating grace under pressure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5RyMM5UoKI

Dreamtimer

9th January 2017, 13:03

Have you seen many over-the-top reactions resulting in people getting hurt?

My understanding is that there are many difficulties associated with police handling people with mental health or disability issues. Their training doesn't go much into these populations. And then there are the racism/sexism issues.

My husband works with adults with intellectual (developmental) disabilities.

Fred Steeves

10th January 2017, 12:52

Have you seen many over-the-top reactions resulting in people getting hurt?

Generally speaking, no. But then with the kind I usually watch that aspect wouldn't really enter the picture.

My understanding is that there are many difficulties associated with police handling people with mental health or disability issues. Their training doesn't go much into these populations.

My husband works with adults with intellectual (developmental) disabilities.

I have a close relative who did that for a time, incredibly challenging (but rewarding) work. It takes a special breed to do that, as I'm sure you're very aware. :)

I would guess their training on this type of situation in virtually zero. Of course there are always exceptions to the rules, and I've seen some cops go the extra mile like that, but it's very apparent the major focus of their training is in the use of overwhelming force for pretty much every situation.

A prime example would be the shooting of a mentally unbalanced homeless guy named James Boyd, executed for the crime of sleeping out in the desert. This is as close to cold blooded murder as most of us will ever see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwytoxMuk4U

The main reason I started watching these though was for the front row seat education, check point refusals being one category.

•In practice, Border Patrol agents routinely ignore or misunderstand the limits of their legal authority in the course of individual stops, resulting in violations of the constitutional rights of innocent people. These problems are compounded by inadequate training for Border Patrol agents, a lack of oversight by CBP and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, and the consistent failure of CBP to hold agents accountable for abuse. Thus, although the 100-mile border zone is not literally "Constitution free," the U.S. government frequently acts like it is.
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone?redirect=constitution-100-mile-border-zone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTG1EHw1XZw

There is also an exploding category referred to as "audits" or "tests", meaning people literally go out to test government officials on how well (or not so well) they strive to uphold and defend Constitutional rights for the people they serve. Lost in the shuffle has been that police have all but forgotten they are public *servants*, and the public with a camera is actually doing a lot to serve as sometimes embarrassing reminders.

There are many ways this is done: Go out and film (always from a public space!) courthouses, police stations, military installations, prisons, traffic stops, Federal Reserve, defense corporations, etc. Filming in public is a First Amendment right, and this is a classic example of a First Amendment Audit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWWDhjFGi8

Second Amendment audits are more edgy, that's where you CAN wind up getting yourself shot with a wrong move:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEai9g688Sw

I won't bore you with any more videos, but upon initial contact these basic audits generally delve into other Amendments, namely the 4th and 5th. Not giving permission (which is often needed!) for search and/or seizure, and choosing to remain silent as to not risk incriminating one's self.

Like I said it's been quite the ride education wise. Before launching into this two years ago I would have spilled my guts to any cop for any reason, given permission to search whatever, pretty much whatever they wanted. Not any more, now we'll do it by the book. As always, knowledge is power.

modwiz

10th January 2017, 13:54

Great videos, Fred. Thanks.

Dreamtimer

10th January 2017, 17:22

I've heard some horror stories. One woman went through hell at the hands of Border Patrol and has suffered long-term physical and mental issues as a result. Another one was a man who cooperated in every way with police to help find who murdered his wife and they were just working him to get something to nail him with. He spent decades in jail while the actual muderer went free.

In Arizona they can't do alcohol checkpoints so they do 'drivers license checks'.

Is the 100 mile from the border 'no constitutional rights zone' still in effect? It's a big Patriot Act loophole that gave officials more power and us no rights.

Fred Steeves

10th January 2017, 21:58

Great videos, Fred. Thanks.

Thanks Rad, much appreciated.

Another one was a man who cooperated in every way with police to help find who murdered his wife and they were just working him to get something to nail him with. He spent decades in jail while the actual muderer went free.

Whew, that's a toughy. Like most people, he probably never suspected that the police would ever lie, or be deceptive towards him. Truth is they can *legally* say whatever the hell they want to get someone to incriminate themselves. This was huge misunderstanding I had (also probably like most people) with the 5th Amendment, and it's right to remain silent.

Like most people I always assumed it was basically *just* for the guilty, so they couldn't be forced to testify against themselves. Like IRS head Lois Lerner taking the 5th before Congress, great example. But it's also for being questioned by the police, because they will not only take anything we say and use it against us, with glee, to help get the conviction, they will twist our words around until the report states nothing of the kind of what we actually said.

It's like Orwell's famous 2=2=5, also know as "cop logic". Under questioning I can tell them I am simply out for an evening walk around the neighborhood, and next thing I know the report states I was admittedly "prowling" the neighborhood. The can, and will do shit like that. I'll bet that's similar to what happened to the guy in your example.

At least if the person says "I don't answer questions", it makes it awfully tough to take 2+2 and make it =5.

As a disclaimer it may well sound like I'm a cop hater or something, but that's far from the truth. I have all the respect in the world for the tough dangerous job they do, and if I need one it's nice to know assistance is only a 911 away. But, like fire, they can also be a dangerous servant. Especially post 911, boy was that a game changer in this respect as well. Everybody is now a potential terrorist...

Fred Steeves

17th February 2017, 10:57

David Wharton (News Now Houston) has become one of my favorites at this film the police thing. He first hit the scene maybe a year or so ago, and I've watched him get better and better along the way both in his knowledge of basic Constitutional law, and how to deal with people in tense situations. A valuable life skill for any endeavor, but especially so when dealing with people who can lock you up in a cage with any missteps.

In this latest video David masterfully demonstrates the power of knowledge, making Grace Under Pressure look like child's play. It's obvious he thoroughly enjoyed this encounter, as did I, and I think you will too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYYDgeu25QI

For clarity's sake, these guys don't do this for kicks. They do it as a teaching tool (for both police and the general public) that photography is not a crime, even in these days of heightened terrorism paranoia. David was arrested 3 times last year, and detained 27 times. At no point did he ever break the law...

sandy

18th February 2017, 04:15

hahahhahahaaa :thup: it is always about power and control IMO

Fred Steeves

30th September 2018, 13:08

As is evidenced by this old thread, I've been watching people conducting "First Amendment Audits" for about 4 years now. As part of freedom of speech, is also freedom of the press, and freedom to film ANYTHING from a public space. As the Supreme Court has ruled: "The eyes cannot trespass". So that's what these people do is go out and test this right. Partly for our education, partly to publicly expose bad cops, and partly to educate, publicly praise the good ones, and educate the many average cop who surprisingly are ignorant of this aspect of the 1ST Amendment. Officer Miller here is a classic case of an arrogant, bully cop, whose inflated ego is used to getting it's own way behind that badge and gun.

There is also the "2ND Amendment Audit", where they test the right to bear arms by legally carrying open firearms out in public. In both cases you had BETTER know your shit first, and how to properly conduct yourself with grace under pressure, but in the former case the worst that can happen is that you can be illegally detained and/or arrested, in the latter case you can wind up getting yourself shot with one stupid move.

Also, just so anyone reading this is aware of exactly what they are viewing here, another critical part of these audits is knowledge of when you LEGALLY need to I.D. (identify) yourself. This guy of course (as do I by now) knows full well what the actual law is on that.

So anyway, I came across a very rare case here by a very experienced 1ST Amendment auditor, where other cops actually stepped in and stopped one of their own from blatantly violating someone's rights. In the vast majority of instances the thin blue line brotherhood, being bad cops as well, or simply being spineless for fear of repercussions, prevents them from doing the right thing. Turns out these guys watch these videos.

It's important to point out the bad cops, but it's also important to point out the good ones as well. In smoothly de-escalating this very tense and needless situation, these two are shining examples of what a good cop, a public servant, should be like. Hats off to them!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPbjzlVNWC4

Emil El Zapato

30th September 2018, 13:18

"Whew, that's a toughy. Like most people, he probably never suspected that the police would ever lie, or be deceptive towards him."

I can see we grew up in different worlds, Mr Fred.

"I see white people". If the dude had been black he'd likely be dead...

David Wharton (News Now Houston) has become one of my favorites at this film the police thing. He first hit the scene maybe a year or so ago, and I've watched him get better and better along the way both in his knowledge of basic Constitutional law, and how to deal with people in tense situations. A valuable life skill for any endeavor, but especially so when dealing with people who can lock you up in a cage with any missteps.

In this latest video David masterfully demonstrates the power of knowledge, making Grace Under Pressure look like child's play. It's obvious he thoroughly enjoyed this encounter, as did I, and I think you will too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYYDgeu25QI

For clarity's sake, these guys don't do this for kicks. They do it as a teaching tool (for both police and the general public) that photography is not a crime, even in these days of heightened terrorism paranoia. David was arrested 3 times last year, and detained 27 times. At no point did he ever break the law...

Houston suburb...

Dreamtimer

1st October 2018, 13:17

I was quite annoyed when people were not allowed on the beaches after the oil spill in the Gulf. Also when there was a pipeline leak in a neighborhood (don't recall where at the moment) not even the media was allowed in. That seemed very wrong to me.

I'm glad these videos are being made.

I feel like people need a personal lawyer just to navigate the world these days.

Fred Steeves

1st October 2018, 21:55

I'm glad these videos are being made.

I am too, the camera doesn't lie. I actually did my own for the first time just a couple of weeks ago right next to where we work every day on a house we are fixing up to rent out. The wife and I were sitting in my truck eating lunch, when something happened to catch my eye in the rear view mirror at the little corner store two doors down. I thought I saw two Knoxville cops with pistols drawn approaching the drive through they have, so I quick turned and sure as shit...

Next thing you know there are cops swarming all over the place, SWAT guys in tactical gear with M-16's at the ready, other regular cops with guns drawn, plain clothes with guns drawn, all coming out of the wood work descending upon this little store. So to make a long story short I grabbed my phone, got as close as I could (maybe 50-75') from the front door they were storming, and started recording.

Thankfully nothing bad came of it, but if something unseemly HAD gone down I was Johnny on the spot to capture it and get it out on YouTube. Nobody would have seen my stupid little rinky dink channel, but I know the mega popular ones to send it to, who would surely have "mirrored" it out there for tens or even hundreds of thousands to see.

Who knows though, often times a camera plainly present prevents that kind of shit from happening in the first place. It's all about accountability.

Dreamtimer

2nd October 2018, 12:10

Like that nurse who got arrested in the hospital. She actually waited and gave the cops a chance to show what happened. They didn't so then she went public.

Fred Steeves

6th October 2018, 10:53

So this short clip I filmed yesterday while doing some concrete repair work behind a house we just rented out. The back story we learned afterwards from Jason our local beat cop featured here, is that we had no idea who we were dealing with concerning this new unfamiliar homeless guy "TJ" who had just appeared on the scene.

After this was shot Jason came back over, and we learned more details about TJ. The reason we hadn't seen him around is because he had just gotten out of jail after 14 months after being arrested by Jason for beating the living shit out of his girl companion because he couldn't post bail pending his December trial. He broke her nose, blackened her eyes, and broke her arm. Then on the way to jail he was screaming at Jason that he's going to find his kids at school and kill them, find out where he lives and kill his wife, really horrible, despicable stuff.

Had I known all that about him at our lunch time encounter briefly described in the video just moments before, I would have had my gun at the ready the way he was behaving, especially towards my wife, with that increasingly crazy drunken look in his eyes. As it was I had finally put my food down, gotten out of the truck, and talked very sternly with him face to face, eye to eye, while also physically demonstrating how much bigger I am than he is. He backed off. Sometimes enough is enough. I'll tell you what, talk about someone who truly deserves to be locked up and removed from society. Or shot...

So I give Knoxville PD a two thumbs up on this one, as "To serve and Protect" is what policing is truly supposed to be about, not "To stalk and Fleece". They were Johnny on the spot just as TJ was about to beat the shit out of that other guy.

I think I'm going to request doing a ride along some time soon with him, should prove very interesting and educational. Probably for both of us. As a by and by it should be obvious here that I'm not anti cop, far from it. I'm anti bully cop, anti bad cop.

TJ is the guy with no shirt on. By the way we also learned he likes to steal people's stuff, swear to the hilt it's his, and will go so far as to fight you for it. He also stabbed a little old man just around the corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Cm6P1lURs&feature=youtu.be

Dreamtimer

7th October 2018, 12:26

Fred Steeves

7th October 2018, 13:33

Jeez, Fred. There's a house across the street that has recovering addicts living in it. But none of them has ever caused any trouble around here. It's not an official facility, I think the owner does it on his own. I'm not sure how he meets the people he helps, perhaps through church or work.
It's a clothing store, but it's only open at certain times whereas to allow the wandering homeless a convenient place to stop and drink their 40 ounce bottles of malt liquor. We had a talk with the owners, and now have their full permission to disperse them if/when things get out of hand again.

See, there's an area under a bridge downtown about a mile away, where the city has officially designated for the homeless to congregate. It's literally a shanty town of sheets, cardboard boxes and such under there, a disgusting jungle of filth and debauchery, and some of them like to go wander about during the day.

The corner store I showed is a draw because they sell beer, thus we have them wandering about our area as opposed to some others.

Just so you know, you've never come across as anti-cop. I think you've been very clear from the get-go about your purpose.

Okay thanks, that's good to hear. Accountability on all sides is the end goal here, along with preferably some meeting of the minds, and even better some fostering of less distrust from either side, and more mutual respect.

There are plenty of rude, obnoxious cop watchers who just go out there looking for confrontations to use as cheap click bait, and I don't like them any more than a bully cop. Except for the gun, badge, and authority to arrest, they are one in the same. Neither is a worthy ambassador.

There's a newly developed app for new iPhones which enables Siri to start recording (https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2018/10/04/siri-shortcut-can-discreetly-record-cops-during-traffic-stops/1509065002/) and keep recording without interruption with one command.

That sounds handy.

Emil El Zapato

7th October 2018, 13:45

Complete Honesty here...I have been anti-cop since the age of 7 though my favorite movie at that age was the 'Delicate Delinquent'...

Fred Steeves

18th October 2018, 21:45

I decided to change lanes on this thread after being introduced to this bad ass woman, and co-founder of Code Pink Medea Benjamin, while watching some Jimmy Dore stuff this morning before work. Grace under pressure doesn't get any better than this as she stays on message in speaking truth to power at the Hudson Institute concerning constant U.S. war mongering towards Iran, despite the obvious physical difficulties in doing so.

Her mentions of the Saudis are also especially pertinent in this time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQvok0ywng

Maggie

18th October 2018, 22:26

Fred Steeves

7th April 2019, 23:16

Smile :lol:, what's good for the goose...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dthDA0fdxU

Emil El Zapato

8th April 2019, 16:32

lol...I spent 30 days in jail for not liking my treatment by a cop...Actually, I was sentenced to 30 days, only spent 5 or 6 days on work release... lol

Dreamtimer

9th April 2019, 06:37

I've been lucky with cops. And being a white woman helps quite a lot. I don't get targeted the way others might.

Dreamtimer

8th May 2019, 18:51

This is a little long. It's a story of an encounter with the police who were up-front aggressive for no reason either apparent or stated. Mr. Palmer tells of being trained from childhood how to deal with this potentiality. It's a thing all black boys go through, this teaching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk1wBrmFo_w

Emil El Zapato

8th May 2019, 19:36

that's ridiculous...

Fred Steeves

17th September 2019, 21:51

A violent psychopath caught on camera. Two different angles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPL_NHEGlzE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ2YyQY5QQw

Aragorn

17th September 2019, 22:40

Jesus Christ, that was utterly disturbing. :frantic: :ireful:

Elen

18th September 2019, 04:40

Jesus Christ, that was utterly disturbing. :frantic: :ireful:

Say that again!! :omg:

Wind

18th September 2019, 11:29

Public servants?

Fred Steeves

18th September 2019, 12:22

Dreamtimer

19th September 2019, 09:53

That's the first time I heard the term gypsy cops.

Michael Wood jr is doing what he can to change things. He was on Joe Rogan's podcast, numbers 670 and 808. Here he is with Jimmy Dore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BopwzJ-9G0Y

Elen

19th September 2019, 12:14

This is giving me great hope for the future...surely it's not just in the US, but a worldwide phenomena. The young people are coming and they are different than the "old world". Thanks for sharing this Dreamtimer!

:love:

Dreamtimer

19th September 2019, 12:34

If I was in the room I'd tell Jimmy that I remember the police abuse of Occupy Wall Street including confiscating and then basically destroying their library of donated books. The police behaved terribly, I haven't forgotten.

You're welcome, Elen. :)

Dreamtimer

19th September 2019, 13:01

Dreamtimer

19th September 2019, 13:30

This is the last segment, I believe. They discuss an encounter in New York between a bicycle deliverer and a cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH-54xaA6II

Dreamtimer

19th September 2019, 13:42

Michael went back on Jimmy's show in December of that year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CBFwhzebkQ

Elen

19th September 2019, 13:47

W a y t o g o Baltimore !!

Fred Steeves

19th September 2019, 16:49

Michael has had quite the awakening to what he used to be, and how he served the system not the people. Often times watching his chagrin over who he used to be gives me little flashbacks to when I used to bow at the alter of the neocons like Cheney and Bolton, and think that war was the answer to all problems. Sometimes people change in dramatic fashion like that but not very often.

Anyway, there's a saying going around the cop block community "Earning The Hate", it often comes up in a video title showing yet another example of police misconduct. I don't happen to go along with that sentiment because I will still always choose to judge cops, or anyone for that matter, on an individual basis. However, after watching this shit for 3-4 years now I think I can spot the early tell tale signs of an encounter with a bad cop pretty quickly now, and go from friendly and cooperative to asserting my rights and asking for reasonable suspicion.

I think the state troopers are by far the worst, almost nothing but a stalk and fleece money making operation and nothing else. Road bandits, they piss both me and my wife off. Just the other day we were parked facing the road in a fast food parking lot waiting to follow a friend who would soon be driving by to lead us somewhere. A trooper drove by slowly, gave me the double take but continued on. Soon as I saw the double take the wheels started turning for how I might handle potential scenarios depending on how he might present himself.

I could see how my positioning may look a wee bit suspicious, and were he to just approach and ask politely I would gladly tell him exactly what I'm doing, "I'm waiting for someone". Then again should he approach accusingly with that typical cop condescension, I would more likely have come back with "do you have reasonable suspicion that I'm doing something illegal?" You show me respect I show you respect. You come at be with a big fat chip on your bully shoulder I start politely asking YOU questions, asserting my constitutional rights, and the video starts rolling. No game playing.

Emil El Zapato

21st September 2019, 17:28

That's the first time I heard the term gypsy cops.

I've said it before, my ex-brother-in-law is a cop...I would trust the average drug dealer more than him. My brother's 2nd career was Law Enforcement. He started life as a individual that was headed to prison and/or death by cop...when he was 13 years old. A weird intervention changed his path, but he has never been emotionally stable.

Fred Steeves

28th September 2019, 22:01

Jesus Christ, that was utterly disturbing. :frantic: :ireful:

Yes. It disgusts me that "The Thin Blue Line" is so protective of its own in this country that not only did this vicious piece of shit not face formal charges, but is still out patrolling the streets just with a different department. Gypsy cops, just shuffle them around same as the pedophile priests...

On the flip side of this equation, "Officer 401" is one of the cops I follow on YouTube. This is not only a good genuine cop, but a good genuine man as well, and this latest 12 minute video about PTSD really gives us some good insights on other side of things. I actually got a bit emotional watching this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scXqxCXI4t0

Fred Steeves

15th November 2019, 12:13

These guys crack me up. Very good tips for dealing with cops: short, concise, straight to the point.

What do you do when they start asking questions?

You shut the fuck up! :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMfAwICiIzk

Fred Steeves

2nd December 2019, 23:46

I'm in a funny mood with this subject right now and this one is hilarious! Well, with my off brand of humor anyway...

This guy "Think Like A Cop" is like a 30 year veteran with lots of very good information to share from his experience, he's a real person that sees most things from all sides, but he also likes his funnies. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obiq_pqFERM

Dreamtimer

5th December 2019, 14:45

"Mr. Turner..."

"Yo"

:hilarious::ttr:

Did the video maker call her a quota? Dang, that's rude.

"Is you drunk?" :lol::lol::lol:

Fred Steeves

13th December 2019, 12:53

Soooooooo, a pair of videos here to illustrate why guns are only dangerous in the hands of civilians, but safe and helpful when used by government officials. Just kidding, a bit of sarcasm because to start off because this shit is getting out of control, with no consequesces. There's been two recent wide open shootouts with police here in the States, one on a crowded Florida highway, the other in a dense urban area of New Jersey.

The one in Florida involved a carjacking of a UPS truck, the carjacker was shot dead by police, but so was the UPS driver and another civilian who got caught in the crossfire. I just love the pitiful excuse we hear towards the end, but hey we're the government and we're here to help...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW3Y4xtccUQ

The other one in Jersey City appears to be a drug deal gone bad, although now I'm hearing terrorist attack because the bad guys got cornered in a Jewish market. Personally I think the terrorist angle is to cover for how ridiculously heavy handed and out of control the police response was.

Besides the two bad guys, three innocent civilians were killed, and I've yet to hear confirmed whether they were shot by the bad guys, or in the hail of police bullets. I like how my new buddy "Think Like A Cop" thinks about stuff like this. Never mind the "Liberal" digs he likes to sprinkle around in his videos (he's from Texas LOL), but I think even through that bias he does make some good points along those lines, and I definitely appreciate his common sense approach combined with 30 years of police experience.

I think he gives a very good breakdown here, this one was truly unbelievable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0lcQpL-xIU

The silly thing about this is that if a legal gun carrying person like myself were to be this reckless with their firearm, resulting in the death of an innocent bystander, they would be locked up and the key thrown away. It would also be a public shaming, and with a fresh round of hand wringing for much stricter gun control to boot, but not when government does it. Funny how that works...

No, there will be no shaming here, zero calls to demilitarize the police, and zero calls for training in de-escalation and negotiating tactics like they used to use, before Homeland Security turned them into shoot 'em up Rambo.

Nope, and all these guys will probably get another ribbon to go on their dress blues from this for their heroism.

Aragorn

13th December 2019, 13:03

The silly thing about this is that if a legal gun carrying person like myself were to be this reckless with their firearm, resulting in the death of an innocent bystander, they would be locked up and the key thrown away. It would also be a public shaming, and with a fresh round of hand wringing for much stricter gun control to boot, but not when government does it. Funny how that works...

Why Fred, didn't you know that all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others? ;)

Fred Steeves

13th December 2019, 14:00

Ha ha, nice one George!

Emil El Zapato

15th December 2019, 11:58

This is pap, but I know the authoritarian slavers at such stuff. I have seen a video of a drunken friend that is ten times funnier. That's living it, friends.

Dreamtimer

16th December 2019, 11:04

Are there still older and more experienced officers in our nations police forces? They are the ones who keep the young hot-heads under control and help train them to have grace under pressure.

Aragorn

16th December 2019, 11:16

Are there still older and more experienced officers in our nations police forces? They are the ones who keep the young hot-heads under control and help train them to have grace under pressure.

Or the other way around, perhaps? Over here, there are many of the old-school officers who maintain an attitude of authoritarian supremacy toward the citizens, while the younger cops generally appear far more liberal and humane. :hmm:

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2019, 12:17

In DT's Dr. Wood thread she mentions his concept of a civilian police force. My thought has always been that any individual that WANTS to be a cop should not be allowed to do so. I figured drafting police officers from the general public could be a workable approach.

A consensus years in the making had been growing to separate the work of a 'Military force' from that of a 'international police force' with the military's prime function of one of killing and the international police force one of 'nation building'. It was a beautiful expression of 'practical reality'. This approach was manifest in Obama's manner of handling countries engaged in bad acting. The world changed as Putin strove to revive the cold war and have a statue made in his own honor. And we mustn't forget Trump's desire for his own statue, of course, made a little taller than Putin's and with bigger hands.

Essentially, Putin threw the definition of a bad acting nation into turmoil and made the non-machiavellian philosophy unworkable under the extant conditions.

Fred Steeves

16th December 2019, 13:32

Why in the hell is the broken record of Trump/Putin Derangement Syndrome being spewed into a cop thread? Can someone please explain that one to me?

You know, it's likely that the relentless drum beat of tired old crap like this plays a sizeable role in why TOT has been slowly, but surely, whittled down to a ghost town...

Aragorn

16th December 2019, 13:40

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2019, 15:36

People leave Fred, because they don't see any value in cop threads! If people wanted to see cops they would watch the news. Not come here to be introduced to real thoughts.

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2019, 15:49

oh brother...

I use Trump to demonstrate a point ABOUT life and the authoritarian personality. Cops can be used, as well, but they don't provide as a sparkling analogy of my point. I can't believe that we haven't stretched our perceptual awareness beyond the black and white of politics. I spent minutes building the point about world military, law enforcement, and motivations and bundled it up with the best living example we have and all that is pulled from it...is the 'name' used. That is so shallow it truly is sad. To know that we live in a world that is limited in its ability to see to the meat of any concept. I give up...I simply can't get my mind to function at that simplistic of level

Fred Steeves

16th December 2019, 16:25

Wow, this has been quite the clinic on "Thread Trolling 101".

Are you done embarrassing yourself again NAP, or are you going to continue with your little public temper tantrum?

Emil El Zapato

16th December 2019, 16:35

lol, Fred, I'm done. The gap is too large between you and I. I will keep that in mind for the future. Know as well, I bear no animosity, you are entitled to be who you are as I am. I just need to keep in mind that sometimes people just don't get it or me and i don't possess a mandate that says you have to understand me and it is best to just keep plenty of distance. My ex wife was like that and we're divorced obviously. And it was my bad, I came to your space, but I won't in the future. Until of course my frustration with the world overcomes me again... lol.

Emil El Zapato

17th December 2019, 12:00

Hey Fred,

I'd like to hear what you find valuable about cops? The guns, the tough guy facade, the willingness to beat innocent people, Being the Master, the helmets, the jack boots, the whiteness, murder of black people, the covert raping, the lines they draw on the avenues, the distaste of humanity, the power drawn from not within but bestowed by those like them (power in powerful numbers), I could go on but I'll stop for now.

That should give us plenty to discuss without even mentioning Trump... :)

Aragorn

17th December 2019, 12:16

That's enough now, NotAPretender. I can remove you from this thread, you know. And I will if I have to. :wiz:

Emil El Zapato

17th December 2019, 12:36

yes, I know Aragorn...

Fred Steeves

17th December 2019, 15:30

If your bound by Admin duties to put a lid on this then I understand Aragorn, do what ya gotta do, but just to be clear as the creator of this thread, I'm personally okay with it. I did give him the choice yesterday:

Wow, this has been quite the clinic on "Thread Trolling 101".

Are you done embarrassing yourself again NAP, or are you going to continue with your little public temper tantrum?

Emil El Zapato

17th December 2019, 15:43

yes, Fred, Aragorn is bound by his Admin duties to put a lid on me...pfft...Aragorn has already shown me the light so your input is really not needed anymore than mine is... LOL!

Fred Steeves

26th March 2020, 03:09

I know this video won't go down very well here, but all I can say is that according to law, this is one mightily impressive example of standing one's ground based on their basic rights as a U.S. citizen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSPZj5GHyH8

Amanda

26th March 2020, 06:44

Wow - what a power packed thread. The woman in the pink top a few pages back - she was impressive. She did not pick anything up and throw it - she did not hurt anyone and was quite articulate. She did not um and arh. Awesome show of the peaceful art of fighting with words.

As a former operational officer I have seen both sides. I never worked with anyone who went too far - so - I cannot comment first hand on Police violence. The videos here are very compelling.

This is the reason Police always work in pairs. Attended a residence and could see and hear big vicious dogs. To cut to the chase; The POI threatened to set the dogs on to me. My partner was behind me. I was staying calm and did not reach for my weapon because he was using words and the gate was not open and his hands were not yet on the latch of the gate. I was however thinking of my next move. My partner had my back - he had already pulled his firearm.

Another time in the main street surrounded by a crowd (they never help trust me) a man who has been lawfully arrested - informed why and asked to get into the back of the truck - starts shaping up. Like a boxer - fists up and he's ready to fight. Largest officer (bigger than the POI) is keeping his attention - I stay close to assist and let him handle the situation. Another officer has the truck door open and is standing in position. Essentially it is getting worse. I don't interfere with my senior officer - the one with the attention of the violent POI - but - I ask him if he wants me to pull my pepper spray. He says no - so I follow my senior officer. It went from getting worse to violent. We were trying to restrain him - no batons no weapons. Eventually another (senior to me) had no option but to use the pepper spray.

Mentally ill People are particularly tricky. This is a true story - with every respect for the lady and her parents. I won't go into how we got her into the back of the truck - she bit my male partner. But at least she's in the prisoner part - I am in the back seat to keep my eye on her while my partner drives up front. We are headed to the hospital so she can see a doctor and get the help she needs. We both showed her every respect.

I ask my partner - please drive extra carefully - avoid potholes and bumps if you can - you won't believe why. The lady had stripped off and was just tall enough to have the palms of her hands up against one side of the truck and her feet pressed against the other. She was rigid. You could have hung a coathanger on her. We get her to the hospital safely and the medical staff are incredibly professional. Try to picture this - she has already bitten my partner - several of us are holding her down as she has not had her medication and is scared and violent. Police and medical staff are all around her holding her down. I am at her head and pulling her hair hard (because I had to) she had also already bitten one of the nurses. That is why we stayed.

This is the part that was never in my training . By the time the lady is on the table and has two Police and several medical staff forcibly holding her down - to assist the doctor to give her the correct dose of her medication - I look up and see the ladies father. His face is ash grey and nothing but angst while watching his daughter. I don't where this came from - I am still holding her hair so tight and pulling it down and everyone else is holding her in place (with two bitten).

I looked at the father and said: Come and give her a kiss and say goodbye before the ambulance takes her to the hospital. (The one and hour and half drive away with a dedicated psych ward). I said: She's still your daughter.

So don't lose all faith. Some Police are calm under pressure and others are not. I do think that it takes a certain mentality to handle whatever your shift brings. Not everyone is suited to having a gun on their hip and a badge of authority.

Just sharing a little of my experience. In my training (academic based) the firearms exam had an 80% pass mark instead of the regular 50%. Most terrifying exam I ever took. Also in the state I was an operational Police officer - you could not shoot a fleeing felon. In other words if someone is running away from you - by law you cannot fire your gun. Even a Police officer will be charged and placed before the court.

Violent Police - not much better than psychopaths and narcissists - they leave a trail of destruction in their wake.

Much Respect - Amanda

Emil El Zapato

26th March 2020, 11:12

ok, here we go again...I resent cops period...despite been surrounded by them (literally as well as not) for much of my life...relatives, friends, newly discovered family etc. I have plenty of history...I don't find them worth discussing because 'copness' is not the issue, authoritarian small peepee syndrome is.

Emil El Zapato

26th March 2020, 11:21

Not that it matters most of the time not even to me unless confronted with it, I can be in the 'presence' of an authoritarian personality without having ever met them and start feeling 'anxious' and angry...it's true

Amanda

26th March 2020, 23:37

Not A Pretender - I get you and your comments. I had a childhood with plenty of Police presence but I never wanted to be one until I was looking to turn my life around. My singing et cetera career did not happen - too naive and I am okay with that and that time of my life.

A person in my life suggested Policing as it was about to be tranferred to an academic based training - I made it into the second undergraduate class. I loved the fact that my brain was stimulated - going to work meant never knowing what might happen and you would have to have your wits about you.

It was not an epiphany or anything grand that made me leave - it was simply a chance situation that opened my Critical Thinking in an instant. I was Custody Manager and was releasing a Prisoner. Custody records can be brought into evidence in court so you have to dot your i's and cross your t's - has to be managed properly. Keep in mind I was in a country setting and not a metropolitan station and was given way more authority and responsibilities than my classmates. That was simply due to staff numbers. I had to think clearly all the time.

So - I am releasing a Prisoner and they have to sign several documents and write out their address and name - not just a signature. The Prisoner started to write and threw the pen down and said: I can't write. I thought quickly and wrote it all out on scrap paper and coached him to copy what I had written. He was a little slow but he did what I asked. It was a defining moment: Maybe I should be Teaching People how to read and write instead of locking them up.

I want to add this Not A Pretender - once I was accepted and telling friends - this comment used to make me cross. I would correct everyone who made the comment. It was always when there were Children present; Look out or behave Amanda is a Police Woman. I would ask People to not scare the Children - one day they may need a Police officer to help them - it's not all about arresting and rough and tumble and gunfights.

Then I learned via my whistleblower journey that many many many Police are involved in abuse. Management is to blame and here is a first person example.

The Youth Liaison Officer was going on leave for a few weeks. Cleared it with the Inspector/Boss and I was given those duties on top of my General Duties. I was a fish in water. Not long afterwards the (internal) position became vacant. I applied. Short version - as a junior officer I just wanted to have an interview and get the feel of how the internal system operated. Being so junior I did not expect to get the position.

The position was given to a male officer in the next city - sometimes I worked there when they were short on staff. Moving forward in time - I've kept up my university enrolment and am already studying to be a Teacher. I eventually resign from the Police. I am in the car listening to the radio and hear a news article about a police officer (from that station) who has been charged and found guilty of Child Sexual Abuse. I was not a Police officer then but I recall a senior officer quietly telling me this after I did not even get an interview let alone the Youth position.

The male officer who had been given the vacant internal position was getting a lot of complaints from the public. Seems he did not have very good communication skills. He was given the position so he would be dealing with Youth and not adults. They thought they were solving a problem. Turns out he was one of those paedophiles (there are many specific varieties) who targets single mothers. He had targeted a mother with a daughter about 12years old I think. She told her mother straight away and the mother acted straight away.

So there you have it Not A Pretender et al - that account always makes me shake my head in wonder. I get why People don't like the Police.

Not all Police are bad or violent loving sadists and I met an incredible good one online once during my whistleblowing. He joined the Police at a very large metro location like New York or somewhere like that - cannot recall where but I recall what he disclosed. He joined the masons/illuminati/cabal/whatever - he went to the meetings et cetera and then one time he was taken to a Child Abuse/Sacrifice. He had to hold his face while present but internally he was wounded. He was never the same and you could tell by his voice that he never got over it.

Much Respect - Amanda

Emil El Zapato

26th March 2020, 23:41

Hi Amanda,

very worthy tale...I will view you very differently from here on...

Dreamtimer

24th June 2020, 13:38

David Grossman (https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/militarizing-the-minds-of-police-officers) has a lot to answer for in terms of police brutality. We would do well in this country to rethink this approach.

Dreamtimer

24th June 2020, 13:43

The (above mentioned) retired Army ranger and former West Point instructor has been teaching his classes for more than two decades.

He focuses on a concept he’s dubbed “killology,” or the study of killing, and uses it to teach officers to kill with less hesitation.

“I am convinced from a lifetime of study, if you fully prepare yourself, in most cases killing is just not that big of a deal. For a mature warrior who has prepared their self’s mind, body and spirit for a lifetime, for a mature warrior whose killing represents a clear and present danger to others, it’s just not that big of a deal,” Grossman said in 2015, while speaking in front of a group in a segment filmed for the 2016 police militarization documentary “Do Not Resist.”

Grossman also enticed his audience by noting that killing can lead to great sex.

Grossman, who did not respond to multiple requests for comment from Insider, is part of a larger industry of controversial militarised and fear-based police training educators, that also includes psychologist William Lewinski at the Force Science Institute in Minnesota, whose work has been called “pseudoscience” by the American Journal of Psychology.

Source (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/bulletproof-dave-grossman-police-trainer-teaching-officers-how-to-kill-2020-6)

Aianawa

30th June 2020, 11:20

Beautifullll share thankyou Amanda

Dreamtimer

28th October 2020, 02:13

Here's how police take down a man with a knife, I mean machete, without having to shoot him multiple times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY&feature=emb_logo

Dreamtimer

2nd November 2020, 12:06

Beau talks about Kentucky police and how they are being trained to be warriors as opposed to peace officers. How they are being trained not to 'degenerate' into being like the populace.

And some smart high school students.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09weDGk0I-o

Emil El Zapato

2nd November 2020, 12:20

No grace, period!

Dreamtimer

2nd November 2020, 12:28

Did you listen? Beau knows his stuff and so can give good analyses.

Dreamtimer

1st February 2021, 19:20

What do you do when you're a nine-year-old? Who already has handcuffs on? And is nine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Du7Q2Y0FVg

Aragorn

1st February 2021, 19:25

What do you do when you're a nine-year-old? Who already has handcuffs on? And is nine?

Luckily, both the mayor and the chief of police have condemned the actions by those police officers. (It was in the news over here.)

Emil El Zapato

1st February 2021, 19:43

I don't even want to see it ... they're sick puppies ... functioning sociopaths.

I think they should enter them into a Polish slapping match.

Wind

1st February 2021, 19:58

I think her "crime" was being black.

Aragorn

1st February 2021, 20:06

I think her "crime" was being black.

To be fair, I don't think so. The child was hysterical and potentially suicidal ─ she said that she was going to kill her dad and then herself. The cops were merely being uneducated idiots and so they didn't know any better than to use pepper spray on her.

Dreamtimer

3rd February 2021, 09:04

They are not properly trained to deal with psychological issues. Neither are they trained to deal with the disabled population. It's a travesty for all involved.

Dreamtimer

13th February 2021, 11:22

Someone's gettin' some job offers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ESNY8mai5U&feature=emb_logo

Emil El Zapato

13th February 2021, 11:37

Hey that's where my niece lives! and the political Paul clan ... who's who of the politically weird.

lol, she ought to be playing in the NFL

Dreamtimer

10th September 2021, 12:10

You have the right to refuse. They have the right to shoot you.

One such document (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/09/lapd-officers-collect-social-media-account-info-from-people-they-detain/), a memo from then-LAPD Chief Charlie Beck in May 2015, said that "When completing a FI report, officers should ask for a person's social media and e-mail account information and include it in the 'Additional Info' box." That includes Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook profiles, the memo said.

Cops in LA are asking for online profile information.

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/laps-field-interview-card.jpg

From Beverly Hills to Illinois, law enforcement officers are using “copyright hacking” in an attempt to prevent activists from posting videos of encounters to the internet. Over the past few months, some police have loudly broadcast copyrighted music when confronted by cameras. The logic is that the music should trigger recognition software used by platforms, and either prevent videos from being broadcast live on Instagram and YouTube or lead to them being taken down.

Yeah, they know they're being abusive and they're actively covering it up.

Fred Steeves

21st January 2022, 03:18

This is an excellent 1ST Amendment auditor! Talks legal circles around a couple of lazy brains, then good cop supervisor comes in to set things straight and save them more trouble:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xMM5K4n2Xs

Dreamtimer

19th February 2022, 11:30

Cops in Austin Texas and now California are getting in trouble. The DA in Austin ran on a platform of indicting cops. Which means that the people of Austin want the cops to be accountable and do their jobs.

The cops in California were not just turning in reports which vastly misrepresented their police work, they were literally making stuff up while they weren't even working.

The public now does not believe the police reports and is looking for accountability. This will likely be happening more around the country. Cell phones are demonstrating that the police reports vary wildly from actual events.

People know they're funding this stuff with their tax dollars and they don't like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-T7hx-KLCM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_kaI3T9ZQ

Fred Steeves

20th February 2022, 02:52

Flipping the script. This was amusing (6:37)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dbm4Hvxt8o

Fred Steeves

22nd February 2022, 23:38

Modern day highway robbery in America, done legally under a federal government ruse known as "Civil Asset Forfeiture", a very hot legal topic here these days. Of course an all important way to avoid this happening to you if traveling with a large sum of cash, is to never give consent to search your vehicle, but unfortunately, all too many people are still not aware of their right to refuse roadside searches when zero probable cause is present, and just trust the police to do the right thing.

I hit the highway with a couple of thousand dollars in cash a couple of months ago, and this was a very real concern if I happened to get pulled over. At least there's some comfort in knowing your rights, knowing it's okay to flat out say "No" to a search. The "nice policeman", especially state troopers, are not there to be your friend on the side of the highway.

This poor guy learned that the hard way. Don't get into answering a slew of questions, don't allow a search of your vehicle, take the ticket and be on your way. They prey on people not knowing this shit, it's like going fishing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-eoBTPjJOU

Fred Steeves

4th March 2022, 03:23

On the lighter side.

After being an auditor for long enough, some of these guys get knowledgeable and comfortable enough to have a little fun with a traffic stop, maybe do a little bit of trolling as a night cap to make them go away:grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2x3ccdDJUo

Fred Steeves

23rd April 2022, 03:23

Jeff Gray is pretty much the OG of the auditing community. Been following his work since 2015, and seen him do some ballsy shit, but this is the first time seeing him repeatedly daring a cop to arrest him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQNwgzZ8yRk&t=7s

Lives up to the origin of this thread's title:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyK6006ns8

Fred Steeves

10th June 2022, 02:10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poTaaNpslzA

Fred Steeves

13th June 2022, 01:56

Very polite 1st Amendment auditor sends "cop splainin" packing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqXkEMCsAY

Fred Steeves

25th June 2022, 13:42

This guy does a very good job, definitely displays grace under pressure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6bx0iHYO4M

Fred Steeves

12th July 2022, 03:10

Not to forget about the good cops. News Now South Carolina is a good well rounded auditor, and he finds himself a good one on this day in Highlands, North Carolina. Fastforward to 8:15 to see just the encounter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz-XKC2K64I

Fred Steeves

29th January 2023, 12:43

Diabolical Boids

30th January 2023, 11:59

The flip side of "Grace Under Pressure". There's a fine balance between standing up for your rights, and just being a fucking asshole. Cops have wide discretion on traffic stops, and it's not at all uncommon to be let off with a warning for somewhat minor violations such as suspended drivers license in this case; but (omg!) this ain't the way to go about it, this is the recipe to ensure they write you up for as much as they can think of.

I'd be one of the most lenient cops ever, choosing to mainly focus on victim crimes, but I'd stick it to this bitch as well. She creates her own problems:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGaLHuPW7_4

I know of no Asshole rights either but legislators are busy everywhere making legislation that protects assholes in the name of diversity. I'm sure she views herself as an empowered woman until she admits her daddy issues prevent her from being civil enough to serve her own interests.

Getting pulled over is the worst time to play patriot if you don't know your rights and knowing you should have rights is way different than knowing your rights.

This opens a bigger avenue about the causes of police brutality. In cities LEO put up with crap like this every day and even worse. Day in and day out, people falling out of their vehicles screaming like maniacs and attacking. And people wonder why they snap. I'm not LEO but I know I'm fed up with people always ready to be offended and escalate from the Karen effect to emotional violence to physical violence over things far less trivial than this. I know a dozen or more LEO in my little neck of the heartland that have left certain states and cities to serve in rural areas because of the various forms of violence occurring in routine stops in urban and suburban areas. That's has an accumulative effect on anyone.

Fred Steeves

23rd February 2023, 22:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_zdH8mX2eo

Aragorn

23rd February 2023, 23:12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_zdH8mX2eo

Hmm... I don't see this as anything commendable. The police officer was behaving nicely toward the kid, while the kid himself was behaving arrogantly toward her, and by his own admission, he's a school dropout. He also sounded like he was high. Maybe he ought to lay off the drugs and go back to school, so that he can learn how to properly speak English — "aksing" is not how you pronounce "asking"; that's uneducated gang member speak. :hmm:

Fred Steeves

24th February 2023, 01:45

Hmm... I don't see this as anything commendable. The police officer was behaving nicely toward the kid, while the kid himself was behaving arrogantly toward her, and by his own admission, he's a school dropout. He also sounded like he was high. Maybe he ought to lay off the drugs and go back to school, so that he can learn how to properly speak English — "aksing" is not how you pronounce "asking"; that's uneducated gang member speak. :hmm:

The gist of this thread is to highlight, for Americans anyway, how the powerless can use knowledge of the law, against the all powerful, to stay out of jail in a pinch.

Cops live for those who don't know their rights, they're easy prey, and the more this kid stands there answering her endless questions, the more ammunition she may well be gathering to find an excuse for an easy arrest to pad her stat sheet. The less you give them, the less they have to use against you, it's as simple as that.

I look at most of these videos through the eyes of a defense attorney, so I don't really care (for the large part) who the defendant is, how well read they are, what they happen to be up to, etc. Did the cop have enough probable cause to detain or make an arrest is the bottom line. She goes home at the end of each shift no matter what, so if possible, it's up to those she encounters to try and assure the same for themselves.

Innocent until proven guilty still stands, but it has to be fought for.

My 2 cents anyway. :chrs:

This is a good example of when/why "I'm not going to be answering any questions" is never a bad idea, no matter how nice the cop may be. At least in a country with a 4TH Amendment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efuRAKq_w6c

Aragorn

24th February 2023, 11:58

Hmm... I don't see this as anything commendable. The police officer was behaving nicely toward the kid, while the kid himself was behaving arrogantly toward her, and by his own admission, he's a school dropout. He also sounded like he was high. Maybe he ought to lay off the drugs and go back to school, so that he can learn how to properly speak English — "aksing" is not how you pronounce "asking"; that's uneducated gang member speak. :hmm:

The gist of this thread is to highlight, for Americans anyway, how the powerless can use knowledge of the law, against the all powerful, to stay out of jail in a pinch.

Cops live for those who don't know their rights, [...

Now that's as much a prejudicial statement and just as wrong as the behavior of the bad cops you've been exposing, in my humble opinion.

...] they're easy prey, and the more this kid stands there answering her endless questions, the more ammunition she may well be gathering to find an excuse for an easy arrest to pad her stat sheet. The less you give them, the less they have to use against you, it's as simple as that.

I look at most of these videos through the eyes of a defense attorney, so I don't really care (for the large part) who the defendant is, how well read they are, what they happen to be up to, etc. Did the cop have enough probable cause to detain or make an arrest is the bottom line. She goes home at the end of each shift no matter what, so if possible, it's up to those she encounters to try and assure the same for themselves.

Innocent until proven guilty still stands, but it has to be fought for.

But that applies to cops just the same. They too are innocent until proven guilty, no matter how many of them are guilty. Otherwise it's just another "us versus them", isn't it? :noidea:

Fred Steeves

24th February 2023, 14:39

The gist of this thread is to highlight, for Americans anyway, how the powerless can use knowledge of the law, against the all powerful, to stay out of jail in a pinch.

Cops live for those who don't know their rights, [...

Now that's as much a prejudicial statement and just as wrong as the behavior of the bad cops you've been exposing, in my humble opinion.

Well I'm not saying every cop is out to get you, there are of course some good ones and I've also highlighted that is this thread, but alas, the great however; the old saying that for the hammer, everything looks like a nail. To a cop, a lot of things start looking suspicious, and a lot of them really get off on their power.

For instance, the typical traffic stop is synonymous to a fishing expedition. At bare minimum the driver may have committed an infraction, but from the moment the cop approaches the car they're radar is poised to ping on anything else that may be going on as well, and besides looking around the car for evidence of probable cause for anything else, often times a Q & A session can reveal cause for further investigation.

The best way to not give them anything else to go on besides the initial infraction, is to not start answering questions to help them along in their investigation of trying to find something else you may have done wrong. Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't see anything particularly prejudicial beyond calling a spade a spade. Cops are paid to investigate for crimes, and it's up to the individual whether they're going to aid them in their investigation. A lot of cops are bullies, and sure as shit they will take full advantage of someone who doesn't know that they're allowed to just say "I don't want to answer any questions". No different than "no, I don't want you searching my car" just to appease your suspicions.

...] they're easy prey, and the more this kid stands there answering her endless questions, the more ammunition she may well be gathering to find an excuse for an easy arrest to pad her stat sheet. The less you give them, the less they have to use against you, it's as simple as that.

I look at most of these videos through the eyes of a defense attorney, so I don't really care (for the large part) who the defendant is, how well read they are, what they happen to be up to, etc. Did the cop have enough probable cause to detain or make an arrest is the bottom line. She goes home at the end of each shift no matter what, so if possible, it's up to those she encounters to try and assure the same for themselves.

Innocent until proven guilty still stands, but it has to be fought for.

But that applies to cops just the same. They too are innocent until proven guilty, no matter how many of them are guilty. Otherwise it's just another "us versus them", isn't it? :noidea:

Well, exactly what accusation of a crime did I cast at this cop, or any others in general? So far as I can tell, I'm just pointing out how they are trained to do their job (like a prosecutor), and ways to keep them from gathering together enough cause to make an arrest (like a defense attorney).

Now so far as the kid here is concerned, which is the same for anyone just walking down the street minding their own business, he's not even being detained as in the lawful traffic stop. She's approaching him cold.

Unless officially detained, no one is required to talk to a cop if approached, at all. Now personally, I would entertain a brief conversation just to see what they want, and out of general respect; but soon as I catch wind that they're on a fishing expedition like this lady cop was with the kid?

It doesn't matter how nice or polite they're being, the conversation is over and I'm asking "am I detained or am I free to go?" Either shit, or get off the pot, and that's precisely what the kid did regardless of the style in which he did it. The law was on his side. He knew it, and the cop knew it. He chose not to be of aid to her investigation into whether she could find something to charge him with or not. It's never a good idea to be of aid in your own prosecution.

Fred Steeves

24th February 2023, 19:19

Here's an excellent example of when it's time to nip co-operation with the police in the bud. Starts out with state trooper and driver having "a friendly chat", by 13 minutes in driver is in cuffs, and there's no more friendly chat.

Had driver noticed the friendly fishing expedition early on, simply asked for his ticket while invoking his right to discontinue his assistance in the ongoing investigation by shutting the fuck up, he may well have been back on his way again by that 13 minute mark, rather than facing a lengthy prison sentence.

The trooper is friendly and chatty as can be when he wants something, but it's all an act, soon as he gets what he wants it's back to where he's most comfortable. Being big boss man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTG4yhtZ2Rg

This is how it's done, by the book. Using people's ignorance of their rights against them.

Note that driver also gave permission for boss man to search his vehicle (always a mistake!). Driver also had the right to say no to that but, by the time it happened it was already too late, boss man had sufficient reasonable suspicion from their "friendly chats" by that point and probably would have just called a dog in anyway. But regardless, it still doesn't hurt to try and hamper their efforts.